I think Allen Iverson definitely gives Detroit a positive change on offense, it’s just now up to each individual player to realize that with a dynamic player like Iverson on the floor there are chances that they’re going to catch the ball in catch and shoot positions on the floor.

I do not believe that Rip running off screens is going to work well with Iverson at the top of the key looking to distribute. I do feel, however, that a backcourt of Rip and Stuckey in the 2nd unit will be a lot like how we’re used to seeing our offense flow.

I was impressed by Prince last night, he was the only Piston making shots (usually, it’s the other way around).

I completely agree about McDyess’ absence affecting the play of this team. With Antonio coming off the bench in the 2nd quarter that scoring drought last night does not happen. Maybe with the game a little closer, and the crowd into it, we take last night’s game. Or at least keep it damn close. Here’s to hoping we see Dice in his Detroit #24 come Decemeber.

A few observations from the Palace seats:

1. Right now AI looks pretty sloppy and lost. It’s understandable to a degree because this is a big change for him. But the way he was handling the ball and passing was awful. There wasn’t a crisp pass to be found. He tends to penetrate and kick out but if he’s going to kick out he needs to get those passes to his teammates right in the numbers. Last night, it looked like the ball was covered in WD-40. Also regardless of what they both say (and it’s troubling that they seem to be talking via the press) Rip needs to run his screens and AI needs to set him up. That’s the deal. If they don’t work together, that spells trouble.

2. Rotation was weak. It looked like a Flip Saunders job out there. Why no Afflalo when clearly Rip wasn’t getting it done? And Kwame Brown, I’m sorry the guy is a waste of minutes. He’s the new Darko. Please, Dyess come home.

3. Good hustle by Amir per usual. I feel there’s room to fit one, maybe two plays run for him a game. Maxey looked sloppy last night, just like the rest of his team mates.

4. If your O isn’t working then your D needs to step up even more. Boston penetrated on nearly every possession. They broke down the defense with an ease that brought a bad feeling in my stomach.

5. Will Bynum deserves to p[ay. Kid’s got skills.

Overall, I was so disappointed. This looked like varsity vs. JV. I KNOW everything is new and early, but the ship needs to be righted sooner than later. If we’re going to contend this year all roads lead through Boston. And they rolled us last night in every facet. I’m not panicked… I’m just talking here. Thoughts?

I think people forget that McDyess was our best rebounder last year. Rip going 0-8 pretty much assured the loss, but we were manhandled on the boards.

I think getting Dice back is crucial to our success this year. The downgrade from him to Kwame outweighs any possible intangible gains from Iverson.

That said, if we don’t pull off a win tomorrow, we could be looking at a 4-8 start.

I think the loss of McDyess will be the thing that does this team in, should he decide to go to Boston or CLE or anywhere else other than Detroit.

I think this team could pull itself together should he come back, because he seems like such a calming force on the floor and in the locker room.

I know this team had to make a move and while I’m happy about the money we have in the future, it’s hard to see that positive light when your team is shooting off balanced shots against a Celtics team who was without their “star” for most of the game.

So as Matt pointed out, there’s plenty of excuses you can make for last night’s loss. Here’s mine: The Four Tops. They sang the anthem, but earlier in the day they did the same thing at Ford Field and carried it over to Auburn Hills.

Shame on the fairweather fans for booing. I was there (i try to never miss one), and i know you want a win, but why boo? We are still 4-2 and a 1/2 game out of first. This road trip needs to see a split for sure.

Did anyone notice that Allen Iverson was on the first month of the calendar giveaway? I was shocked. I’m sure they already had 20,000 calendars printed before last week with Billups in it. Very impressive by the Palace indeed.

You guys are forgetting that we still have the best starting five in basketball. Did anyone hear Iverson talk? In a pickup game the best five are gonna win every time. The only time they’ll lose is the other team has experience with each other and are well coached. Once Curry can pull this team together into a finished model we’re going to look really really good. I still have lots of optimism for this season.

With Dice gone, we NEED Rasheed down on the block.

I think this is obvious to every single person watching the game.

However, ’sheed was floating around near half-court (literally hip to hip with Iverson) for the entire first half.

I don’t know why this is still happening. I thought Curry was going to fix that.

I like the Iverson trade but the team looks like there is just too much change going on right now. I’d put Maxiell back in the starting lineup and make Afflalo the first sub off the bench at SG/SF. Max seemed like he was develeping that McDyess-type elbow jumper last year and Afflalo is an Aaron Mckie-type wing and nice fit for AI.

By all means continue to play Stuckey and Amir solid minutes but Job 1 now has to be finding sets that work with Iverson on the court and for me I think that is more J-Max and more Afflalo with AI.

There is no Zoo Crew this year, it’s just a Zoo. I want to see a more orderly rotation based on winning in ’09 first, force feeding minutes to Stuckey/Amir second.

What about starting Stuckey, to give the game a more Chauncey-esque feel, and then bringing AI in off the bench? Let AI run with Afflalo and Tayshaun and Max. That would be a pretty exciting group.

Good point by kevin s. When you’ve got one guy battling for offensive boards against three green shirts, you ain’t gonna get a ton of them. Especially when that one guy is Kwame Brown. Dyess was our best offensive rebounder last year and also does a great job at getting up for the tip-outs.

Garrett – That’s not bad either. Here are a few things I think the team needs to do to win.

- run Rip and AI off screens
- drive the ball to the hoop
- get some midrange offense from the bigs
- put players in roles where they are comfortable

AI actually does well running off screens himself but you can’t have two players like that on the court with a skinny PF without a reliable jump shot. I think Maxiell is better at setting picks at the moment so I like him with more AI/Rip than Amir. Play Amir with Stuckey.

too much age in the starting lineup, too much youth and inexperience on the bench

there is no stabilizing force like Dice or Lindsey to calm these young bucks down coming off the bench

When the going got tough at the end of the 2nd quarter last night, the youth kicked in and began to play like they didn’t deserve to be on the same floor as guys like Leon Powe and Big Fatty.

there’s no reason why Maxiell shouldn’t be eating Powe’s lunch on each defensive set, but it’s just the inexperience of those guys not having Dice, Billups, Hunter in there to slow it down and help with the rotations.

Once AI gets settled in, I think everything will flow but we still have a serious YOUTH “problem” (it’s a nice problem to have to be honest) in our 2nd line… a bunch of guys who haven’t done much in the game, who are trying to live up to the expectation set forth by those that came long before them.

Was Kwame Brown really that bad? Outside of Amir “The Rodman” Johnson, I thought he was hustling the most out there last night.

Herrmann was a no show.

If I were Curry I’d put in Bynum any time there is an extended lulling period- Good things happen when he’s out there

“Here are a few things I think the team needs to do to win.

- run Rip and AI off screens"

I haven’t gotten a chance to see the team play this year but this, to me, seems like the best plan. Have Tay at the top, and run Rip and AI off screens (the way they used to with Tay and Rip when Chauncey was at the top).

Another thing, I rather have this team stumble out the gate the first two months of this season, than to see them already peak as a team at the end of December (like what has happened last 3-4 years).

I rather see this team peak in March, April, or even May instead and then let them carry that momentum into the playoffs.

I’m not worried one bit and I’m about ready to “boo” this team or write them off this season. Let this team gel and the bandwagon fans will be back around March.

lol *…I’m NOT about ready to “boo” this team…

Diablo: Was Kwame Brown really that bad? In a word? No.

Amir and Kwame are averaging the same number of rebounds/48 minutes so far this season. The stats are there to dispute any “Kwame can’t rebound” myth like the one kevin s. and Eric perpetuate. Offensive rebounding between the two, as Shinons points out, is a completely different story favoring Amir a moderate amount. Kwame didn’t have a particularly solid performance, but on average he’s doing just fine so extrapolations are inaccurate.

If Kwame got 24 minutes a game though, something I’m not necessarily advocating be attempted in reality, he’d be averaging a very health 7.6 rebounds per contest. Dice averaged 8.5 boards last year in 29 minutes per game, that’s less rebounds per 48 than Kwame or Amir thus far. Even with the rather small sample size, it’s clear Kwame’s biggest drawbacks: butter fingers, adventurous dribble drives. His hustle and rebounding is a plus, not a minus. Kwame’s an easy target because he’s a complete bust as a number one overall player, but that doesn’t make any of the criticism he’s gotten on the young season as a Piston the least bit accurate.

Garrett: We can’t take a $20 million/year man out of the starting lineup and expect it to be okay. If the McCain camp thought Palin went rogue, watch AI’s ‘tude when he’s told to come off the bench. In the hypothetical world, sure it’s fantastic, but the saying “That’s why the games aren’t played on paper” comes to mind.

Letting tay run the offense for a little while every game should be something that is looked at.

I agree with diablo, I’d rather peak later.

Also, I’m sure the Pistons miss McDyess scoring, but I would have to think that Amir and Maxiell’s offense will improve throughout the year.

I wouldn’t mind rolling the dice on the youngsters and throwing them in the deep end.

(Mixed metaphors were intended, pun was not)

Let’s not forget that the Pistons were the better team for 3 out 4 quarters last night. Sure, the second was a catastrophe, but 3 out of 4 isn’t bad considering how uncharacteristically lousy Rip, AI and Rasheed played.

I don’t know what the answer is for those ugly second quarters, but given the talent on our bench I think there has got to be one. And once they figure it out we’ve got a team that can beat anyone.

Add me to the try-Bynum-during-lulls crowd too. He seems to be the only one of our guards who consistently gets calls on drives to the basket. And he certainly isn’t afraid to drive. I know that there aren’t many backcourt minutes to go around, but he’s earned a few.

Well it’s official. Dyess has been bought out.

http://www.denverpost.com/nuggets/ci_10947948

My recommendation for this team to improve itself is for the team to win basketball games. That will help tremendously. I hope Coach Curry reads these words.

This team is regressing.

With AI running the offense, it now looks lazy and stangnant.

Sheed has given up going down low in the block.

Rip doesnt run his screen routes as much, he just stands around.

Prince is the only one looking aggressive trying to create his own shots.

Yea we have Stucky and Bynam being somewhat aggressive but their game depends on attacking the basket and hoping they get a foul call from the ref instead of a charge.

And Amir has played way over his head on the offense end so far making a few jumpers but mainly get garbage put back baskets. But thats not going to nearly equal Mcdysse’s contributions.

Bottom line this offense looks alot worse with the arrival of AI.

First, I sure do hope Dyess comes back. Saying that, I’d like to see Rip come off the bench. Put Stuck and AI on the starting 5. Get Stuck his minutes. At the end of the day, this trade was made to get Stuck more minutes, might as well start now.

Second, with a second unit of Dyess, Rip, Max, Kwame and Hermann, there’s not a 2nd unit out there that can match scoring, defensive intensity and probably not very many to match the athleticism. Throw in Affalo and it’d be tough to score on us.

This gives Rip a reason cherish the 2nd unit as he would be option 1, provides less were and tear on him, plus any #2 chasing AI then Rip is going to be gasping come the 4th quarter. If AI comes off the bench, that’s fine too. I guess it all comes down to his press conference saying all he was looking for now was a ring.

I say throw the youngsters in the deepend for a month, can only help (even if it hurts our record). In a month hopefully Dyess will return and all will be wonderful.

I don’t think AI is coming off the bench for anybody. And that’s okay. I wouldn’t argue down the idea of putting rip on the bench to start, but then we have our two “pgs” on the floor together to start the game, which will cause subbing problems.

I like the idea of tay running things from time to time. Not all the time, but more than he is now.

My vote is to keep the starting five as it is. If Stuckey is eventually going to be the star that everyone hopes he’ll be, he should be able to be the leader of the second unit.

Listen, I won’t hide it at all, I don’t like Kwame Brown’s game. That’s because he’s never developed one on an NBA level. I’m sure he was dynamite in high school. His “former #1 pick” status, isn’t even on my radar. This dude has underachieved since day one and continues to just scrape the bottom of serviceable.

By virtue of height alone he’s bound to grab boards and god love him if he can. But every time he leaps up I cringe; just waiting for the ball to go sliding out of his fingers. If he’s in a crowd fighting for a rebound… forget it, it’s someone else’s ball. His rebounds come TO him as where Amir GETS his boards. And when he all the sudden decides he can slash to the basket… uhhh ok! As for McDyess and Kwame Brown, they are worlds apart. Not only did Antonio grab rebounds, he was good for 10+ a night.

Hey, he’s a Piston so I want nothing but for him to succeed, thus helping the team succeed. But in my mind, it’s just nice to have someone to foul Dwight Howard and Shaq. That’s where Kwame Brown fits in.

extrapolate this:

Antonio McDyess is 10x the player that Kwame Brown wishes he could be. There’s a lot to be said about guys who have heart and determination and who are willing to work against all odds.

If Kwame Brown has 2 potentially career ending knee injuries, he’s sitting at home right now wondering “what if”.

McDyess brings the intangibles that Kwame just seems to lack. When a Garnett pushes in Dice’s back on the block, Dice pushes back. When Dice sees a double team on Sheed coming, he cuts to the basket for a thunderdunk.

Kwame Brown can’t read the game like Dice can. Sure, raw “per 48” numbers after extrapolating them show an equal comparison in the rebounding category, let’s see how many of those “per 48” minute rebounds were against guys who want it more than Brown.

I’d be willing to put my house on not many of those rebounds Brown gets are from Perkins or Garnett. He may be able to fight off Big Fatty and Powe, but as a guy who is 7’ tall he should be able to fend off 6’9 guys.

“Amir and Kwame are averaging the same number of rebounds/48 minutes so far this season. The stats are there to dispute any "Kwame can’t rebound" myth like the one kevin s. and Eric perpetuate.”

He can rebound a bit, but not as well as McDyess. And he can’t stay on the floor otherwise if he is going to keep shooting 39% and 36%.

The idea of pulling Rip or AI off the bench is preposterous. The best five should start.

The best five should average the most minutes. I don’t care who starts.

It matters A LOT how you mix and match the minutes. Stuckey plays the 5th most minutes on the team and I don’t see anybody saying Curry should play AI/Stuckey/Rip/Prince/Sheed as the starting 5. Rip grew to be an elite player on offense because he added a three point shot to his mid-range game coming off screens. He needs screens set for him to use his skills. If your 7th best player’s best skill is setting screens then you try and play those two players together as much as possible, talent be damned.

You have to acknowledge what the different players do on a basketball court and mix accordingly. I don’t think Will Bynum is a better player than Andris Biedrens but I think 5 Will Bynums would crush 5 Andris Biedrins in a game of 5-on-5 because Biedrinsx5 wouldn’t be able to bring the ball up court without getting stripped. You have to field a basketball team, not a PER team or an all-star team.

Lost in this conversation about McDyess is Walter Hermann. He’s capable of giving minutes at the four and providing offense.

Chances are, we’ll get Dyess back. Won’t be the end of the world, if we can’t. I’m sure Amir, Max and Hermann are up to the job.

@QD:
While I’ve been a Walter Herrmann promoter since, well, the day we added him, I think the issue is positioning. Walter’s natural position is at the three, yet he’s comfortable at the four. McDyess is a solid option at the 4 and a good option at the 5. I agree, Herrmann can play at the ffourr, but we need natural power position (four AND five) experience, something our team is lacking now (save for the sparse moments when Sheed puts some passion into the post).

However, I should say one thing— I haven’t said much in the last few days mostly because I think we’ve got nothing to worry about. All the doom and gloom here aside, nearly all of us will be laughing about it all in a matter of weeks.

For all the talk of the Pistons depth the team still plays 4 of it’s starters about 34 minutes a game. The Lakers have players like Vlad Rad and Trevor Ariza averaging more minutes than Maxiell and Amir so it’s not like Detroit is really giving players that much run. Sasha Vucucic doesn’t strike me as a better all-around baller than Afflalo and he gets more run behind Kobe Bryant.

I’m happy with the team, the personnel, and the coach — I just think there needs to be some order made out of chaos sooner rather than later. It’s easy to say give it time to let things jell but what is being done to MAKE it jell?

@jjj:
“It’s easy to say give it time to let things jell but what is being done to MAKE it jell?”

We can’t answer that question, its out of our pay range. I put my faith in Joe D. and Michael Curry, neither of them have done me wrong yet… When I say “we’ll be laughing about this” it is basically “in joe d. we trust” in longhand.

kevin: You and I both know that the 38% is far lower than Kwame’s career average. If he continues to shoot that, sure, bench him completely. The rebounding is slightly higher so far than his career arc too, but it’s not worlds apart. People questioning the guy’s hustle or ability to rebound or play defense are making an unfounded criticism. The downgrade between him and Dice overall is certain, but he has a bigger body than Dice, and he uses it well too.

I’m aware Kwame has some really bad tendencies. Butter fingers? Check. Bizarre drives from the elbow once or twice a game? Check. However, rejected Kendrick Perkins in the post on Sunday? Check. Held Perkins to zero rebounds in the nine minutes they shared on the court (Perkins had 10 boards in the other 19 minutes he was on the floor)? Despite a baseless denial earlier, Check. Why didn’t Kwame stay out there then? Because we couldn’t score, and even though Kwame isn’t Ben on offense, he’s not a great option either, especially if he keeps ending up at the line. Defensively, the guy more than held his own. Tony Allen’s 23, Rondo and Ray Allen’s combined 30 (that’s 53 of Boston’s 88 points) isn’t exactly Kwame’s fault.

Aren’t we always talking about how our depth allows us to give different looks? Kwame Brown is a different look because his size is greater than anyone we’ve had in years and he uses it well. That doesn’t mean I wouldn’t like to see Dice back with the team for reasons both personal and pragmatic. I’m as big a fan of McDyess as any and I absolutely believe he helps us a good deal. It’s okay to be a fan of Dice without it being at the expense of praise for Kwame Brown.

joejoejoe: Lakers fans and Phil Jackson love Vujacic. Sports radio gushes about him out here in LA, and to be honest, Sasha would drop daggers from beyond the arc on the regular last season. I’m not trying to knock Afflalo, but Vujacic has a longer résumé too. I think that’s the answer.

LB: Agree with your assesment of Vujavic, but before last year, he barely saw daylight, just asked to play short minutes of pesky defense. However, if I’m starting a team, I pick Affalo before Sasha, because I see Affalo being on the floor for longer (in a year or so) on any team the two might be on at the same time. AI think AA is more fundamental.

Correction: I think AA is more fundamental (not AI).

Vujacic blows. He’s a decent defender and a streaky three point shooter. All you have to do is chase him off the 3pt line and he’ll just drive to the basket and then dribble through the lane to the other side and pass it off.

Afflalo has more of a mid-range game and can occasionally finish at the basket. And he’s stronger so he won’t get pushed around on D.

“People questioning the guy’s hustle or ability to rebound or play defense are making an unfounded criticism. "

I’m not questioning his hustle, and I am aware that he is a good defender. I’m saying he isn’t as good as McDyess, and that is a major problem.

Sorry, probably going to get flamed, but I’d rather have Vujacic than Afflalo. On this squad at least. I watch the Lakers as much as possible (I like good basketball. I don’t care who plays it.) and this guy lights a FIRE off the bench every time he comes in. And he’s lethal from 3 [EVERYBODY is a streaky 3pt shooter. That’s why nobody shoots over 50%. The bad days even out the good days.]

And he (Vujacic) annoys “star” wings in the league so much with his pesky defense that he’s good for at least 5 almost-scraps with superstars a year.