Please come back McDyess. Please, please, please, please, please.

Kwame’s gonna go for 15 and 10 tonight…

PFFFFTTTHAHAHAHAHA

Why not move Maxiell to the starting line-up?

I don’t think Kwame has proven himself to be consistant enough to be put into the starting line-up and this is coming from someone who supports him.

F*ck.

“Why not move Maxiell to the starting line-up?”

Because Maxiell has a better offensive game, which makes him more useful coming off the bench. It’s the same logic Curry used when he put McDyess back on the bench.

With four legitimate offensive options in the starting lineup, I think Curry likes the idea of having a fifth starter who goes about his business playing defense and getting buckets off offensive rebounds.

This shouldn’t effect the minute distribution between all the big men, so IMO it’s not a huge deal.

Plus, hopefully this will mean more opportunities for Amir offensively. I wonder what will happen when (if) Dyess comes back?

Curry said something about how Maxiell plays like Brown, in the sense that he plays like a center. He didn’t like the idea of two players out there trying to do the same things. It was really a strange exchange, but maybe I read to far into it. He completely danced around the subject of Amir, and didn’t refer to him at all.

The last time Sheed was our starting PF, we nearly won the title.

against some teams sure.. but against golden state? having kwame out there sounds like a disaster lol… we’ll see tho

i just think out of all games, amir would be best suited to start against golden states’ bigs

I have to admit, it’s embarrassing to think that Kwame Brown is currently our starting center. And this is coming from a guy who still wears his Darko jersey out in public.

I was beginning to think that it was completely ridiculous to start a guy and then play him less than 20 minutes a game. And why NOT let Amir try to do some damage against someone’s second unit?

Seeing him play the first eight minutes, disappearing, showing up for eight minutes in the third, and then disappearing again…
I mean, I understand the thinking behind him starting, but it’s clear that he’s not yet trusted at all.

Problem is the AI trade has left the Pistons with some serious chemistry problems. I think this much should be obvious to all DBB readers. If Dice comes back, it will help some, but won’t be conclusive. If you’re going to play 3 guards, or have Tay run the point with AI and Rip, you need some size up front. So, MC is going to keep changing things up until he finds a unit that can play well together and compliment each other. That being said, it’s not going to be an easy task.

The guy they really need is Ben Wallace to play with AI, Rip, Tay and Sheed. Not because he’s an ex-Piston but because his skill set compliments the other four players. Kwame is probably an adequate backup, he’s been as advertised so far, good on D, bad hands, but he’s no Ben, not even a 34yo Ben. You’d like to have Max out there, but then the lineup is too small, especially with Sheed wanting to play outside. See where I’m going with this?

I will say the timing is awfully weird. Like Mannie32 said, Golden State doesn’t have traditional big men.

The Lakers do, so maybe this is a dry run for Friday’s game, but subjecting Kwame to the rain of boos that’s guaranteed to come at the Staples Center when the starters are announced just seems cruel.

V: Unless you’re talking about the archetype of Ben Wallace, I have to disagree. He’s fallen off the cliff hard, and it’s absolutely not just the system.

“Subjecting Kwame to the rain of boos that’s guaranteed to come at the Staples Center when the starters are announced just seems cruel.”

Yeah, but Kwame played really well at Washington, where the 40 people in attendance rode him pretty hard. I don’t think he’ll be rattled.

argh

matt, kwame being inserted to the starting line up is the most ideal one anyway when they play the lakers friday, this should give the line up to adjust and be ready for the western conf champ. this shouldn’t be a surprise, curry emphasized during summer that the starting line up of bigs would have to depend on who they’re playing. offcourse wallace is always given to start. if anything, it becomes a nightmare, he could re-asses the starting spot again.

Kwame Brown is awful.

Did anybody see that Theus, AND the Kings got fined for complaining about the officiating Tuesday? He was right, though, that was a horribly officiated game.

Yeah, but the Pistons had just as much right to complain. I mean, we even had Blaha— BLAHA— complaining about the officiating. The Kings need to just quit being little girls.

“Problem is the AI trade has left the Pistons with some serious chemistry problems. I think this much should be obvious to all DBB readers.”

Depends on what you mean by “chemistry problems”. Curry hasn’t had time to draw up a playbook including Allen Iverson at PG. If that’s a chemistry problem, then we have a chemistry problem.

It isn’t obvious to me that these players will not be able to win games together. We will suffer on defense, but the hope is that Iverson can compensate on the offensive end. If he can’t, then it’s not a chemistry problem, but a talent problem.

Kwame has my support. Just get me the wins and I is a happy man!

I don’t mind Amir coming off the bench considering the playtime patterns already described. Maybe he’ll help add to the spirit of the zoo crew. Pure energy like that coming off the bench is always good, and maybe he’ll get some plays. Kwame sure won’t get much starting, but I’ll be perfectly happy with rebounds and put backs from him. P.S. Fabio on the pistons page advertising ladies’ night made me laugh. Ain’t he perty?

Chauncey has 16 in the first quarter against the Cavs, Man he passed up so many open looks in Detroit for ridiculous drives and passes for worse shots, but in Denver hes taking those shots, i wish he had of been more aggresive from the perimeter in Detroit the last couple seasons.

@Greg, re: Fabio. Yeah, I love how the Pistons marketing is using him as a sex symbol. I wonder if this is based on empirical work, like surveys. “Who is the sexiest Piston? A) Tayshaun B) Rasheed C) Jason D) He of flowing golden locks, a disarming smile, and hands that are powerful enough to palm a basketball, and yet gentle enough to caress your body: Walter Herrmann.”

I mean, the choice is obvious. Right? Right?

Makes a lot of sense going into Friday. Brown and Bynum, although I’d prefer the latter in Piston’s blue, is a decent size matchup. To say Sheed can handle Gasol is an understatement. Prince and Hamilton have been dominant on D against Kobe and any 3 they’ve got. As for AI vs. Fisher, Amir/Max vs. Odom? Friday is shaping up to be an interesting matchup. This might be a very shrewd move by Curry.

that said, BRING BACK DYESS1

Amir should just play 30 minutes a game, and Kwame should be out of the rotation. It’s a joke that someone with Amir’s rebound rate doesn’t play Dennis Rodman type minutes. He’s one of our best players, and we give him less minutes than three quarters of our rotation players.

Amir has potential to be but hes not one of our best players.

Rban – I don’t know of a single stat guy who agrees with you. While I won’t link to every example, here is a link to 2 PhDs ranking him last season (in what was effectively his rookie year) as one of the best players in the NBA: http://82games.com/ilardi2.htm. I know it’s limited minutes (though 764 is no joke), but all the research I’ve ever seen suggests per minute performance is remarkably stable as minutes increase. He makes mistakes, but the positive things he does on the court overwhelm them.

And even from a non-statistical point of view, I think he’s a great fit with our starters (esp. before the Billups trade). He is athletic and only wants to play defense and rebound. We have and had four starters who want to shoot – why not play a fifth that does not need the ball to dominate a game? I’ll go so far as to say I think right now he’s a better player than Ben Wallace was in his prime. Worse on the ball defender, almost as good of a help defender, but an overwhelmingly better offensive player.

Even if you think that’s going too far, given the data, it’s pretty tough to argue that Kwame should take any of his minutes, right?

haha

that’s funny, the last time Sheed played the 4 we nearly won a title…

yeah, and that was 3 finals ago… back when the team was in their early 30s and late 20s… back when KG was stuck in Minnesota and Ray Allen was nursing injuries…

I think the NBA has also gotten better. I like this year’s Lakers and Celtics teams over that Pistons team in 5 or 6.

This team needs some chemistry and fast. I can’t lie, it’s freaking me out.

Man, you guys crack me up. This is the best blog ever.
As for Kwame, he hasn’t done anything to wow me but because he’s a Piston, I’ll support him. I want him to do well, and I want our guys to get some W’s.

I fully expect a healthy dose of Trevor Ariza to try and slow down Iverson or Prince. The Pistons have more or less had the Lakers number since ‘02. We’ll see how much that had to do with Billups.

I just want to be clear that Chauncey Billups just scored 25+ points for ANOTHER team and Kwame Brown is now a starting Piston…

Anyone ELSE want to tell me the appocalypse isn’t here because man I’m starting to see fish boiling in the sea and I think Lebron is growing 12 more heads and a “Mark of the Beast” whatever that is…

(Trying to stay in good humor about this but Kwame Brown is now starting for my team………oh God no……)

Matt: Does it matter? I think the first half of tonight’s game was pretty good evidence. It was more of a “just sayin’” comment, although Paxson is another guy, along with MJ that David Stern should ban from doing business with Joe Dumars.

Kevin S.: Doug Collins mentioned that the Pistons hav eot get used to playing with someone of AI’s pace. I’m not so sure they can. Althogh we won tonight, it was by all accounts a sloppily played game. Put some of that on AI learning how to play with his new teammates, but also put some of that on the Pistons playing faster than they’re probably comfortable with.

[Expecting to get flamed]

Can I just say that Amir has been completely and thoroughly underwhelming so far this year? Now that he plays more often, I get to see him up against other teams’ bigs, and my god he looks like a SF at MOST. Everybody beats up on him, pushes him around, etc. There’s not a chance in HELL that we could compete with Boston’s frontline right. They’re big; we’re really small. If Amir’s the future, I just don’t see. I don’t give a shit about PER or rebound rate. I watch the games, and Amir does NOT impress.

We need to buy ourselves some Carlos Boozer this off-season.

“right now” was what I meant there

Couldn’t agree more, Joel, regarding Amir. Bad showing for Fabio last night, too. I love that I got to see everyone (sans aker) last night. Catch 22. People freak out when our team struggles, as it has so far, but we’ve been trying so many different combos. It seemed everyone said that they’d accept some L’s if we were playing the kids, right? I enjoyed the hell out of last nights game. If this was any previous team, we would’ve rolled, and only played 8 players. Can’t have it both ways (easy wins and big rotation).

Look, everyone’s entitled to their opinion on Amir. But I think the Boston point is particularly amusing, given that the only time we looked remotely competitive as a front-line that game was when Amir was in the game. Note he led the Pistons in +/- with +9. He also looked remarkably comfortable guarding Kevin Garnett in the first quarter. Granted he didn’t guard KG the entire game, but he gets some credit for KG’s 4-15, right? We got blown out when Kwame and Maxiell were on the floor together in the second quarter by Boston’s undersized but athletic second-string frontcourt.

This is his first year getting consistent minutes in every game, and he’s still 21 – i.e. younger than Rodney Stuckey was last year. I just think 8 games into the season is a bit early to give up on a guy who has been an amazingly efficient player everywhere he’s set foot on a court (NBDL and NBA) and who is still at an age where players get markedly better. Anyone remember when Bynum was a bust? (Certainly they’re dissimilar players, but the comparison of “super raw but athletic young big man who took a few years to figure it out” seems apt).

Wake me up when Amir is averaging more rebounds and blocks/per 48 minutes this season than Kwame or when Curry gets a clue to pick one over the other. Giving either or both of them 10 minutes isn’t exactly a vote of confidence in either of the two. Until then, I just think it’s very exciting to have Allen Iverson on this team. I like watching him play.

I agree with Forty, although not with the comparisons to prime Ben Wallace (who did but everything Amir does on defense but better, and could sustain that for entire games without getting into foul trouble).

Even disregarding PER and all that, he’s had a pretty visible impact on both ends. On offense, he’s still getting high percentage looks around the rim, he’s a monster on offensive boards, and he’s hitting his jumpshots (!). Defensively, he’s been active as ever by racking up steals and providing the usual help defense, though his fouls are still high and his blocks are down.

All that said, he hasn’t done that well since the Iverson trade, and he’s still a rough product. He also looks more tentative than he should at times. I think he’s doing fine and he’s had a positive impact, but a return to the second unit with Stuckey and some Baby-Eating 101 from Maxiell may do him and the team some good.

Hopefully, Kwame will just be a nominal starter, like he was yesterday. I’m hoping he succeeds here, but really, anything past spot post defense seems to be beyond his abilities.

LB: Amir already leads the team in rebounds/48 and is tied with Kwame with 2.47 blocks/48. Just for kicks, he’s averaging more steals/48, too.

Matt, if you’re gonna say Amir is “leading” Brown you’re guilty of splitting hairs. It’s not a significant lead. My point was to illustrate that for all the Amir hype and the Kwame hate on their rebounds and blocks, the difference is so minimal that at its most favorable, it becomes nit-picking. And steals? We talking about steals? Not fouls drawn or fouls committed, not fouls drawn or fouls committed, but steals? Come on Matt.

LB: I’m not saying it means anything, you’re the one who brought it up. You said “wake me” when he’s averaging more, and he is, that’s all. If your argument was “they’re almost the same player so far,” I wouldn’t have said anything.

How dare you argue with LaywerBoy.

…vacation is over, everbody. sigh

I will definitely admit that it has been a small sample size, and post-trade EVERYBODY (except Bynum and Afflalo)) is struggling— Maxiel looks terrible, Hermann looks terrible, etc. In reality, I think I’m just used to seeing near-exellence every night all year long—i.e. what we’re used to with this team. In a month or so I’m sure I’ll be eating a fat filet of crow when Amir puts up a 20-10-5-5 game and Maxiel is averaging 10-6 off the bench. All is well: I’m just impatient.

@Joel:
Prince has been unreal too, added to Bynum and Afflalo. Last night, the others started to come around. We’re on our way— if we can break the old mold and establish a new one, we’ll be aimed at the NBA finals as soon as Dyess joins us (fingers crossed)

“I’ll be eating a fat filet of crow when Amir puts up a 20-10-5-5 game”

Let me guess: 20 points, 10 boards, five blocks … and five fouls.

Fair game Matt, mis-interpretation, and a my bad to boot. I’m just saying that the statistical differences between Kwame and Amir on this young season can’t be used effectively to argue one player’s superiority to the other, yet for some reason it continues to occur on DBB based on conjecture. For all the Amir love last season and Kwame hate this off-season, until something about either one’s play changes (I imagine it will be difficult for that to happen unless Curry gets a tighter rein on the rotaion), it’s kind of absurd to dog Kwame and coddle Amir just because of a five-year age gap.

In fact, if anything, I think Kwame needs a stronger show of support from the organization. Watch how the Lakers fan crucify him tonight. We need to stop doing that to him ourselves. The guy just needs some support.

Amir needs to be told point-blank that making him untouchable in the past is in danger of looking foolish. He needs to know that we expect him to justify the organization’s patience with him, because not many players (especially 2nd rounders straight from HS) get this kind of three-year rope. Amir looks to me like he doesn’t understand the stakes.

“The guy just needs some support.”

Respect is earned.

“Amir looks to me like he doesn’t understand the stakes.”

Curry gave him the starting role because he was the hardest worker, the most impressive Piston in training camp. I think he clearly understands the stakes.

As a community, we’re roundly down on Kwame because of his past performance. We’re big on Amir because of his promise, which is documented in statistics. Kwame will have plenty of time to impress us, just as Amir will have plenty of time to justify our hope. We have doubt in Kwame, hope in Amir.

“yet for some reason it continues to occur on DBB”

Hope is a stronger emotion than doubt.

“Hope is a stronger emotion than doubt.”

In our “fallacy of appeal to emotion”-driven government, could this be why nobody voted for Ron Paul?

I don’t think Amir’s getting coddled at all. Curry sat his ass DOWN immediately last night, after blowing a play, and nobody from the organization ever said he was untouchable.

Sometimes he does well, sometimes he doesn’t, but it’s not like he’s sent out there for 30 minutes a game, regardless of how he performs. Amir get 18 minutes a game or less, as in the case of last night. Curry gives him rope, but it’s enough for Amir to hang himself if he does poorly. And in that Boston game, with about as tough a matchup as he could possibly have, Amir held his own and produced.

Watching a 21-year-old trying to develop in significant action (although I thinks the “significance” of his action is basically the same as it was during the Flip mini-run last year, maybe even less so), is far different than watching 26-year-old, eight-year vet, 7’ foot tall, 270# Kwame Brown getting shredded by Andris Biedrins last night.

Sure, Kwame’s big, he can rebound (although he’s had more than 3 rebounds only twice, four once, and nine against the Bobcats who can make anyone look all-world), and takes up space in the paint. But if that’s all we’re looking for, then why in the hell didn’t we just call up Dale Davis again? What’s Elden Campbell doing?

And Chauncey’s team LOST that damn game. Color me impressed.

“I thinks”? groan

Don’t get me wrong, if Kwame plays well, more power to him because that only helps the Pistons. He’s just not the kind of housewrecking big man the Pistons really need. And the problem is neither is Amir, certainly not yet.

Let’s trade AI for Dwight Howard!

Hmm…I missed the argument, so I’ll catch up quickly.

1. The last time Rasheed was our starting PF, Chris Webber was our starting center. That was fun.

2. We know what we have in Kwame. We don’t know what we have in Amir. Kwame Brown has played in 412 career games an average of 23:23 minutes. Amir has played in 81 career games an average of 13:05 minutes. We’re seeing Kwame at the peak of his career, 26 years old and 8 years in the league. Amir’s career record of most games without a DNP-Coach’s Decision is 17 games. We need to set Kwame at the very end of the bench, run Amir 30 minutes per game (or until he fouls out), and if it’s February and he’s still lost, then bring Kwame into the rotation.

3. If I were Maxiell, I’d be pissed seeing both Amir and Kwame jumping over him for the starting spot. So we’d be too small? Too small for what? He probably should have started the season as the starter, and after Kwame Brown plays his way out of yet another starting lineup, it should go to Max next.

I’d think that they would have started Maxiell, but they’re obviously worried about Rasheed banging all game on the other team’s biggest guy. Which is what ends up happening with Amir on the floor, anyway.

Max played Howard really well last year in that series, with his low center of gravity and all. But that was then and this is now, I suppose.

I’ve been disappointed in Amir, but I never thought he was going to be that great to begin with. I’m more disappointed in Maxiell’s play. It looks like he has totally regressed out there. In the playoffs last year he had his jumper working to about 18 feet out, and he was crashing the boards hard. He even picked LeBron’s pocket that one time off the dribble. He looks lost and confused out there now. All of our bigs seem to be picking up a lot of dumb fouls.

“…watching 26-year-old, eight-year vet, 7′ foot tall, 270# Kwame Brown getting shredded by Andris Biedrins last night.”

Um, Beidrins made EVERYBODY look bad. Probably Sheed the worst. Double-double in the first half? SHAME on all our bigs.

I’m more annoyed by our overall pnr defense, and it’s not clear to me yet who is more to blame: bigs or smalls. I’m inclined to say bigs, especially the big away from the pnr who needs to rotate on an aggressive roll or slip screen. I thought sheed blew several rotations to biedrins, but I’m sure nba defenses are sufficiently complicated that my eye is amateur hour.