Thanks for the link love to us lowly Clevelanders. :-)

Actually, we are calling foul on the NBA for allowing the rule. The Pistons did very well for themselves and didn’t break any rules, technically.

Still, the NBA needs to do something. We didn’t like it last year when the Spurs did it with Brent Barry either. The spirit of the trade rules are being violated with this stuff and I would think the NBA would want to clear it up.

Just so you don’t think I am hating on the Pistons, I will find it sketchy later this year when the Cavs trade Eric Snow’s contract as part of whatever deal the Cavs do.

I see Boney has already taken to opportunity to go on Celtics blog to point out the hypocrisy of a Boston fan complaining about this.

Sam Cassell, anyone?

McDyess will most likely return to the starting lineup when he comes back, or at least that’s what seems best for the team in my opinion. Maxiell and Johnson should anchor the bench on most nights, and Kwame should retreat to his usual role before the Dice trade.

Kwame has been playing some great basketball as of late, I don’t know why he should get punished by playing behind Dyess, Amir or Maxiell.

Free Amir! With a trade!

@craig

i understand your argument, but the point is: it’s a trade between the nuggets and the pistons, therefore these teams should have the say whether the trade was fair or unfair, not others. the nuggets got what they wanted: a true PG and salary dump.. they’re happy. the pistons also got what they wanted (err, really?).. so they’re happy (not really). so what’s the fuss? the rule’s legit.

Dyess has been playing great basketball for the last several years. I don’t know why he should get punished by playing behind Kwame Brown.

There are things I like about Kwame, and I think he has earned minutes with his defense, but McDyess is just a much better basketball player.

I don’t think the NBA needs to do anything. If a player is willing to leave millions on the table to play for a certain team, why would another team want him in the first place?

@Kevin S.:
As Matt Watson once said, it don’t matter who starts— but who finishes. I think Dyess should get more minutes than anyone other than Sheed, but i think it fits our squad better if he doesn’t start. We need his experience and scoring off the bench, we’ve been hurting without that. Should max/amir find a groove, then it’d make sense to make a change accordingly.

Keep Kwame starting. Bring Dyess off the bench first, along with Stuck. We need SOME shooting on that second unit. And Dyess put up better numbers per minutes played off the bench than he did starting last year anyhow.

And on a slightly related note, I am so severely disappointed with the play of Stucky, Maxiell, and Amir. Now to be fair, this has been the WORST 12 games possible for these guys to find their game and get comfortable in the new rotations (if you can even call them that— I think Curry has a magic 8-ball on his keychain that he asks whether or not he should put certain players in), but that being said, these guys have all been inconsistent at BEST and horrible at worst.

But Dyess is awlsum. Hooray beer!

guys, what about bynum? should he be in front of stuckey in terms of rotation? i think the little dude’s playing better at this point. thoughts?

Shrug, in a league where flopping is endemic and an nba ref publicly admitted to fixing games, we’re worried about players leaving money on the table to play for a team they love? What we talkin bout? Buyouts? I mean how silly is that?

Leave it to Boston fans to be sitting on top of the hill, disapproving of the actions taken by those below them as if they were actually losing something…if this were the 80’s I’d just write it off as “white privilege”, but since it’s not I’m just left shaking my head.

Someone above made a good point about Sam Cassel. What some of these “other” fans don’t realize is that McDiggity could’ve signed for more money with a team that had a better shot at a title (L.A., Boston) than Detroit could offer, but he showed loyalty. McDyess isn’t a ring chaser, he wouldn’t have fit well in Boston or Los Angeles…

Also, since it seems reasonably clear that no malfeasance took place here (dice left a TON on the table – this wasn’t us prenegotiating that denver needed to buy him out at 95 cents on the dollar so he could come home painlessly), couldn’t the “this is unfair, rich get richer logic” be carried to all players who sign below market deals? If that’s the case, you should be arguing for no salary cap and an auction process as opposed to free agency – since both lead to players making “inefficient” sums of money.

I say Dice should start because we need to have some more familiarity in the starting lineup. Kwame and Iverson are two players who just came here and there’s not much chemistry among the starters. Iverson and Sheed have been great together, but Rip has suffered a lot, and Prince hasn’t been affected much. Adding Dice to the lineup will immediately increase our confidence and trust with each other and I think we’ll start playing more relaxed.

QD,

When it comes to Jeff @ CelticsBlog and his bandwagon ass bandits, I have no fear chiming.

I keep it civil, until I can’t anymore.

hell, I have no fear chiming anywhere

All you donks should know that by now

Has any team benefitted more from cap rules than the Celtics? One word: Ratliff. I mean, I’m sure the Celtics really thought he was a part of their long term future. Cornerstone of a rebuilding period and all that…

I’ll preface this by saying that I’ve had two martinis… Um, Canadian Club martinis, of course. That’s not plausible, is it? Canadian Club sidecars? Let’s face it, Matt drank some dank booze at some point during his little blog-perk dealio…

At any rate, say we worked a Hamilton for Kaman trade, and sent Sheed and Amir to NJ for Vince Carter?

Yeah, we’d be the least likable team in NBA history (displacing whatever Pistons roster happens to own the current title) but this could work.

VC is 31, and is not nearly as bad as everyone thinks he is. With Kaman, Dyess, Maxiell, Johnson and Brown on the boards, we’d be a top ten rebounding squad.

Next year, we would be looking at nearly enough cap room to sign Boozer. A minor deal or two could make that work.

Then, we can resign Sheed for the MLE… Sheed-Boozer-Carter-Prince-Stuckey-Maxiell-McDyess? Ron Artest would be compelled to join by some enigmatic force. It’d be real ugly and awesome.

Permitting me to be saying:

Mc-DIGGITY-DIGGITY-DIGGITY-DIGGITY-DYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYSSSSSS!!!!!!

I hope you finally get that ring with the Pistons.

Kevin s: Like the Kaman / Rip idea. Put Affalo at the 2 (at least for defense) and bring Kwame & Dyess off the bench. I’d even throw out Prince for Kaman, but doubt the Clips would do that since they have thorton at the 3.

I still think we need to get to Piston basketball and that means defense, defense, defense first. No easy layups, the lane is off limits to penetrating guards and we quit bitching about calls. It appears we’re doing it less than last season from what I’ve seen so far, but if we play physical defense, some of those calls don’t get whistled. IMHO

can we get chauncey back now. and rehir flip too!

Am I the only one here that would argue that while Iverson’s scoring ability is nothing short of legendary, his overall basketball skillset doesn’t hold a candle to Chauncey’s with regards to what they both bring to the PG position?

5 on 5 basketball is about more than scoring (light bulbs are going off, I know). It seemed like the main reasoning behind trading Billups, besides the cap space, was that we’d be getting a HOF scorer that could be a go-to-scorer in crunch time, yada yada…but here’s what bothers me about the trade. If the offense needed retooling (I couldn’t disagree), should you do it at the expense of your team’s defense?

I don’t understand trading a guy to get an extra 10 points a game if your defense is going to give up 11 more points a game…

Just a thought.

“Am I the only one here that would argue that while Iverson’s scoring ability is nothing short of legendary, his overall basketball skillset doesn’t hold a candle to Chauncey’s with regards to what they both bring to the PG position?”

Would anyone argue otherwise? I don’t think anyone would question that.

Mp – I think pg4l would argue that. She’s been a staunch supporter of all things iverson. She is actually rumored to be changing her handle to ai4l.

Iverson has always been more of a shooting guard in the NBA. When Philly made the finals in Iverson’s MVP season he was third on the team in assists behind Eric Snow and Aaron McKie. Kevin Ollie averaged 15 minutes a game down the stretch and had a higher assists per minute ratio than AI as well. Even though it was Billups traded for Iverson, Iverson plays Rip’s positon. It explains why Rip is in a funk. Tayshaun looks great handling the ball because there isn’t anybody out there to do it. Stuckey looks lost because he’s almost more of a slashing 2 than a PG. Bynum looks great because he’s the only true point guard on the team.

Short of trading Rip or Stuckey the only solution I see to the logjam at SG is to give Rip 15 minutes at SF in a small lineup and 15 minutes on the second unit with Bynum at PG. Together Iverson and Stuckey have enough PG in them to function out there and Tay makes it click but Rip/Stuckey and AI/Stuckey as guard tandems look like too little passing and too little initiating of the offense. And I haven’t even mentioned Spellcheck who has been great and is a big positive on defense. It’s a logjam at SG.

I meant AI/Rip doesn’t work above. AI/Stuckey works fine with Tay on the floor.

@Forty:
Right on— where is AI4L anyway? We should chip in and get her a jersey. Maybe even get Iverson to sign it.

I think the most important thing to remember is Eric Gordon got his first career NBA start tonight. Gordon’s 25 points on 9-18 shooting (4-8 from 3) and 4 steals in 33 minutes in his first NBA start is certainly as important of a topic of conversation as any AI/Chauncey debate or trade scenarios involving Rip and Kaman.

Bust? Corey Brewer-like? Discuss.

Eric Snoredon.

Corey Brewer has the best +/- of any player on the T-Wolves. He gets outscored just about every night by his opponent but that’s true of Tayshaun Prince lots of nights as well. Prince still has a tremendous positive effect on team defense because he allows the other 4 players on the floor to play straight. Even though Brewer plays in only 42% of his team’s minutes he’s in all of their top-10 five-man units according to 82games. I’d love to have Corey Brewer on the Pistons. Put him out on the court with Afflalo, Prince, AI, and ’Sheed and the Pistons would go back to holding teams to 80 points a game.

http://www.82games.com/0809/08MIN7.HTM#5man

Note: I’m not saying AI is great on D but somebody’s got to score the ball if you play that lineup ;)

“Would anyone argue otherwise? I don’t think anyone would question that.”

That’s the point…with Dyess coming back, Detroit basically (can’t forget Cheik Samb) swapped guards with the Nuggets. It seems pretty clear the Nuggets got a steal. Not the better end of it, a steal.

But who knows, Allen Iverson might have a revelation, become a defensive demon, get his teammates involved, and lead the Pistons to a championship…

If not, then I’d say it’s about time some of you took Joe D off of the mental pedestals you’ve placed him on. He’s a good GM, but not the cool, calculated, basketball visionary that some Pistons fans give him credit for.

WLM1: The Nuggets got a steal? You’re willing to make that distinction after less than 10 games (exactly 10 for Billups) played by AI? Wow, bold.

Courtesy of Pistons.com
Michael Curry says:

“We’ve got 82 regular-season games so how many more. Sixty-nine? One thing I knew coming into this position, what you’re going to be judged on here is what you do in the postseason. You may take lumps doing things a certain way throughout the regular season. The reality is that the addition of Allen, especially having Dice back, the extended minutes for guys like Amir, Afflalo, Stuckey and all of those guys, all of those things are going to help us be better in April, May and June. I feel if they’re better, we’re going to be better and we can handle situations better. But we can’t expect them to step up big at that time if they haven’t been given opportunities during the year.

yes the trade looks terrible. for this year. but was it really about winning this year? or salary cap room down the road? and the fact that 59 wins aside, people, fans and sports pundits were BORED by the 2004 core. well we got screwed because you don’t know what you got til it is gone! i actually feel bad for iverson. you can see the realization that it is not going to happen on his face. the nuggets may have been a better match for him. in fact we may all be getting a lesson in what a great player chauncey is. take heed sheed …and pundits.

can we have chauncey back now?

curry is full of shit. they gambled on losing dyess and now they are looking for him to save the sinking ship.

There are two separate issues. First, Iverson is not a POINT guard, and, frankly, Detroit, despite having an above-average number of good guards, doesn’t have a pure POINT guard. AI has played point, but he’s a natural 2; Stuckey is a shoot-first guard. I like Affalo and Bynum, but neither are “lead the offense” kind of guards (although maybe someday Bynum could be).

The second issue is that AI has some weaknesses on defense. Let’s face it — Chauncey did too. All last year, fast guards would beat him off the dribble, and our bigs would, too often, not get there in time or get there in time but allow the dish to their man.

I still say that Detroit’s problems this year are not going to be because of AI and the guards. The problems will be with bigs. Getting ’Dyess back will help, but Detroit will still need some combination of Maxy, Brown, and/or Amir to play significantly better consistently.

Oh, and it would be nice to have a good backup SF, but I’ve been saying that since Corliss left.

I’m definitely unimpressed with Curry to this point. The consensus from the players after Flip was that he didn’t hold players accountable. MC came along tooting his own horn about how different he would be, but just like Flip he insists on sticking with a line up even when it is getting absolutely destroyed. Our losses have been by a margin of 26, 18, 18, 12, and 7. Um, that’s not a sign of good coaching.

I totally agree with those who say the difference is in the D. Right now, we’re allowing the fifth worst fg% at 46.9%. Previous years we were at 43.7, 44.5, 45.2, and 43.0 percents. As ridiculous of an idea as it sounds, when we are getting torched by the likes of Tony Allen or Randy Foye early on if we throw Spellcheck at them they will probably cool off. If teams are blowing by Stucky and AI, if we stick Max or Amir out there with their only job being to protect the lane, we will probably give up fewer easy points.

LB,

You have to remember, Amir Johnson put up 20 and 10 on Al Jefferson in a late season start the year before last…

If you want to slurp a former IU bum, then don’t get your tamp cramp twisted when we slurp the possibility of Amir being productive

Eric Gordon = Ben Gordon

You’re a poet, Boney. :)

Wow, Boney. Good one. Amir came off the bench in that game. Dale Davis started. Good try though. It was neither his first NBA start, nor even his first game playing 30 minutes or more, both being true of Gordon last night. Why does accuracy always elude you?

I think the ribbing is well justified— after talking the guy up all summer long (until you so graciously disappeared), you come back for an i-told-you-so after one game, calling it as important than the communities concerns about ai/chauncey?

After how many (thousands?) comments in these posts about 1.) wearing out the Stones core and 2.) not giving anyone minutes beyond an eight man rotation, isn’t it a little odd how many people are busting Curry (fewer than 15 games coached in the NBA) for not having a consistent lineup. Maybe he’d like to play around with combinations in game situations to actually see who gives what, when. If getting AI into a lineup, losing an All-Star point guard and a veteran big-man don’t make you experiment a little early in the regular season, then you shouldn’t be coaching. Just a thought. Still November, still fewer than 10 games into the trade.

Since I’m one of the few that’s on board with the trade, I’ll list some of the reasons I like it…

1. The cap space next year makes this a gamble that’s worth it. Let’s bring in Iverson, see if he can shake up the team enough to get them back in the Finals, if not, the gamble is that Stuckey will be able to take over next year without the Chauncey training wheels.

2. It’s nice to have someone that gets superstar calls for once.

3. When JoeD said he wanted to get a superstar, I said that I hope he gets one that’s hungry. I don’t think anyone has questioned AI’s toughness and drive.

4. Charley Rosen had a good article about how the Pistons are undergoing a makeover from a tough physical team to a slicker team and might be just as good the new way. He pointed out that Maxiell is the only banger on the team (I would add Afflalo though). And that the team will be more about ball hawking and running. The couple games I’ve seen have made it real fun to watch. Yes, this isn’t your daddy’s Pistons. But if the NBA is going to change the rules so your style of play is at a disadvantage, then you have to adapt a little.

5. The team that started the year probably wasn’t going to win it all. It was worth it to just shake things up and switch one all-star for another (I like Cheick Samb and think he’ll be a good backup C, but he was expendable). I’m sure Joe figured Dyess would come back or that Maxiell and Amir would step up (which is still a possibility).

Right on, QD. This year was set to be a repeat of the last 3 if Joe didn’t do anything. If this was the same team and coach, then I’d have some concerns about a 8-5 record. With a new coach, new starting pg, c, and rotation players, there’s no reason to worry (imo) until February and the trade deadline. We’re still going to be in position to make the playoffs, and curry and co. will have had a fair amount of time to show what they can do. McDyse coming back just stirs up the rotation again and makes Curry work a little harder to get the pieces to fit right. Also, boney, that’s pretty generous to compare ben gordan to eric gordan. 6th man of the year his rookie season? Not quite, eric.

“WLM1: The Nuggets got a steal? You’re willing to make that distinction after less than 10 games (exactly 10 for Billups) played by AI? Wow, bold.”

Look, I’m fully aware this trade could end up working out for both the present and the future, but it has changed the dynamic of this team dramatically. I’ve already mentioned how alarming it’s been to see Rip so lost on the offensive end of the floor.

Someone on an earlier post asked the question was Rip shit without Chauncey? That’s a fair question as of RIGHT NOW. 10 games is a tiny sample, I agree, but I think Flip Saunder’s comments about Chauncey being the glue that was holding this team together over the last few seasons were an honest and accurate assessment from a guy that coached this team for years.

Detroit’s been praised for the system that it expects its players to buy into…that approach seems to be on ice as of RIGHT NOW. The guy that pretty much emobodied what this team was about, besides Ben of course, is now gone and the team looks very out of sorts as of RIGHT NOW.

Placing your faith in all to be well in the end given what we’re seeing RIGHT NOW comes across as bold to me…just a matter of perspective I guess.

I find it ironic that Celtic fans are crying over this when an Ex-Celtic(McHale) traded Garnett to Boston for Jefferson with a wink-wink nod-nod.

As far as Cleveland crying and whining goes… just wait when LeBron leaves for New York. You guys should have traded Szerbiac for Zach Randolph… too late.

I only made the comparison to Ben Gordon because he’s an undersized shooting guard who plays little to no defense and who lacks ball handling ability (see Eddie House like dribbling capabilities).

LB, put away the Bobby Knight love doll and relax a little bit… preferably in the hole you crawled into after you got smacked down the last time you came up from under your bridge.

LB, you deserve credit for your persistence, but as your fellow IU alumn I’ve got to agree with Boney that Ben Gordon is the high water mark for EJ. He’s got a fantastic shot, but Boney’s right that he’s a poor ball handler and O.J. Mayo (the most obvious comparison) definitely looks heads and shoulders above him at this point. In fact, it’d be pretty easy to put together a list of 10 rookies that look like they have more potential than him at this point.

Not to mention, the Clippers still lost by 12 to fall to 2-12. Your prediction of them making the playoffs is not one that I’d be reminding people about. Although compared to IU getting beat by 40 by Notre Dame and only beating IUPUI by 3, I guess the Clippers look good compared to them. :(

@QD:
I’m with you completely. Chauncey will remain one of my favorite Pistons forever, no matter which jersey he retires in. But this was a smart move on every level.

My only concern— is Stuckey the real deal? Our current gamble is predicated upon him leading this team come 2009-10…

I’m not concerned about Stuckey right now.
 Same with Curry, give the dude some real time to earn the spot.

 That shit’ll iron itself out, give it time.

 I don’t expect a 2009 title, I expect crazy shit to pop off in
 2010, and then I expect a title in those forthcoming years.

Coaching adjustments, player comraderie and experience as a group can “iron itself out”. Consistently shitty shooting, however, can not. Point being, there are some valid concerns about the kid. I have faith in Joe D’s vision and trust in Michael Curry— the one thing I cannot say I have absolute confidence in is Rodney Stuckey.

I like the kid, I’ve got hope, but I’ve got concern as well.

Mike Payne,

I believe Rodney Stuckey sucks because he does not wear an undershirt with sleeves down his elbows, nor does he drop 30 on above 50% shooting in any of his starts, add in the fact that he didn’t go to IU and well… let’s admit that anyone who doesn’t go to a Big 10 school to play basketball sucks.

Regards,
Boney

/for once not prophecy_projektz’d
/LawyerBoy’d
/douche-o-meter red lining at the moment
/air humping life size Bobby Knight Adidas sweater cut out
/alienating the rest of the dbb faithful

oh and…

/making things awkward again like back in mid-july when I jone’d on LB’s moms

@Mike Payne, I agree with you on Stuckey especially his shooting. There were times in the game against Boston when I was thinking that he should just let Kwame shoot.

I agree 100% with QD. Those are all of the reasons I support the trade as well. It’s frustrating to watch because we’re used to some pretty precise offensive sets, but I think we’ll get through it and come out with a solid team in a few months.

Maybe it’s just me, but anytime someone is trying to explain why the like this trade so much, the words “faith” or “hope” or some reference to things to come are employed…

4-5 so far with each game seeming worse than the last.

“But this was a smart move on every level.”

“I have faith in Joe D’s vision and trust in Michael Curry”

Mike Payne, I’m not trolling or baiting you, in fact, I enjoy most of your posts, but if the current events are any indication, you’ll be eating those words sooner than later.

May all of the faithful, blind optimists continue to be the ying to my yang…

My take on the trade continues to be that we were unlikely to win a title as constituted before the trade and are unlikely to win as constituted after the trade. Given the clear advantages in future seasons of clearing cap space, it still seems like a pretty shrewd move. It’s always been a question of intertemporal tradeoff, even if Dumars would never, ever frame it as such (and indeed it would be suboptimal for him to do so on many levels).

Yeah, maybe you don’t do it if the short-term tradeoff is dire (let’s call that threshold we lose 15 more games than we would have). But does anyone really think we’re that much worse with Iverson? Or, phrased another way, would anyone NOT pull the trigger on the trade if the difference lay in the ~5 expected wins area, given that it helps you in the future? How about if I add the kicker that you were the underdog and just got to jack variance as well (i.e. the range of outcomes we can expect under Iverson are MUCH more diverse – which is what you want if the status quo is you lose to Boston in the ECFs, right?)

To all who say Denver fleeced us, call me when they win the title this year. Because if they don’t, I’m going to give you a jingle in two years when they are still paying a 34 year-old PG big $, haven’t signed any marquee free agents in either 2009 or the OMG 2010 class b/c of their cap situation, and are still not contending for championships.

“WLM1: The Nuggets got a steal? You’re willing to make that distinction after less than 10 games (exactly 10 for Billups) played by AI? Wow, bold.”

Well, 10 games and the previous two seasons. Denver unquestionably got the better player.

“It’s nice to have someone that gets superstar calls for once.”

We are getting fewer calls than last year. This is a myth, just like Chauncey’s on/off switch was a myth.

“My only concern– is Stuckey the real deal? Our current gamble is predicated upon him leading this team come 2009-10…”

Especially since we dumped the guy whose coaching style most benefits a player like Stuckey.

“4-5 with each game seeming worse than the last” – surely your graph isn’t trending straight down, given the two blips where we convincingly beat the two hottest teams in the league, right? I don’t think people who are encouraged by us housing L.A. in the middle of a West Coast trip, when they have still yet to lose to anyone else and are winning their games by >13 points per are “blind optimists.”

L.A. played awful, Cleveland gave up a sizeable third quarter lead…So, when the Lakers or Cavs lose to a Memphis or a Washington (and yes that is bound to happen), does that mean that the Memphis or Washington fans should excuse all of the shitty performances beacause, hey, they beat the Cavs the other week!

Let the Lakers win go already…relying on a past win to defend an awful loss stinks of blind optimism. In fact, it really sounds like the flip-the-switch mentality…well, they look shitty, but they beat the Lakers so you know they’ll be alright…not convincing at all.

Losing to the Timberwolves by 26 at home is worse than any loss from last season, even that Knicks game.

I can see why Sauce left, some of you can’t see waht’s right in front of you…this team is going nowhere fast and gave up the identity that drew many of us to them.

“I can see why Sauce left, some of you can’t see waht’s right in front of you…this team is going nowhere fast and gave up the identity that drew many of us to them.”

And your point is…? If the team is going nowhere fast, like you say it is, that doesn’t mean I won’t be a fan. I stuck it out when Eric Leckner and Terry Mills were starting for our team. Their identity may not be based around defense any more, but it doesn’t mean they won’t be fun to watch.

Maybe he means DBB.

No matter the W/L percentage, as long as Dumars is at the helm we will have good if not great team out there, period, and I’ll be watching the Pistons ball until I die. I have pride in the franchise.

“And your point is…? If the team is going nowhere fast, like you say it is, that doesn’t mean I won’t be a fan. I stuck it out when Eric Leckner and Terry Mills were starting for our team. Their identity may not be based around defense any more, but it doesn’t mean they won’t be fun to watch.”

I’m not saying you shouldn’t be a fan, I’d never want someone to stop rooting for a team if it makes them happy. My point wasn’t to try to discourage anyone on here from rooting for the Stones (be kind of pointless, don’t you think?), I was just trying to point out the lack of awareness some of the people posting on here display. I’m not going to ignore the fact that some of you continually praise Joe D like he’s Jesus reborn and label anyone that criticises him as some kind of doom and gloomer or disloyal fan. It’s really similar to the whole patriotic/anti-patriotic shit you hear when people debate the war.

Right now this place seems to be split between those that like the trade and those that hate it. The ones like me that don’t seem to thrilled by the move seem to rely more on reality-based arguments (you know, what’s happening RIGHT NOW) when explaining their stance.

The trade supporters on the other hand are starting to sound like clergymen…

“No matter the W/L percentage, as long as Dumars is at the helm we will have good if not great team out there, period, and I’ll be watching the Pistons ball until I die. I have pride in the franchise.”

First just let me say that I can have that medal you seem to want for your undying devotion to your team shipped first class if you’d like…

As for your Dumars endorsement, thank you for providing yet another example of the blind, if not moronic, optimism and faith some of you place in Joe D.

His 2nd home isn’t the Vatican, there isn’t a need to kiss his ring, and I’d bet my last dollar that his bowel movements wouldn’t leave a rosy fragrance in the air.

Wait wlm, saying you like the trade b/c of future implications is not a “reality-based” argument? If you want to evaluate every nba trade on the basis of its effect on w/l in the first 10 games, I suggest you apply for assistant gm on the next team isiah runs. Cap space and roster flexibility are decidedly real.

And you can’t ignore big wins any more than you can ignore big losses. Focusing solely on losses is as much blind pessimism as the converse is blind optimism. (As an aside, how is this loss materially worse than the Knicks debacle last year?)

We’re 8-5 after the biggest roster shake-up since we traded stackhouse. Back away from the ledge – there will be more two game losing streaks this year and let-down games against bad teams…just like every other season ever played by teams not named the 96 Bulls.

Signed,
Reverend Forty and the Church of DBB

@WLM1:
“Mike Payne, I’m not trolling or baiting you, in fact, I enjoy most of your posts, but if the current events are any indication, you’ll be eating those words sooner than later.”

Let’s look at the current events:
We’re 6-5 without Chauncey. Projected out across the entire season, that’s a 55% win percentage, or 45 wins. Last season, that would have earned us a tie for the 4th seed with the Cleveland Cavaliers.

- Do I expect 45 wins to garner a 4th or 5th seed in the renewed Eastern Conference? No.

- Do I expect that trend to continue with a 55% win percentage? No.

- I expect it to increase to 60%+ for the Piston’s 8th 50+ win season.

Its not about blind faith, blind optimism or “hope”, it is a statistically oriented estimate that uses my gut as a filter. Ask people like Dave Berri, ask EA sports about what they think about the Pistons chances with Iverson. You’ll have a tough time arguing with either, especially since you appear to come with nothing but baseless pessimism.

Consider the alternative, WLM1. The old core was NOT getting it done. There’s nothing like rooting for the most promising team in the league, only to be slapped in the face in the ECF season after season. Joe Dumars promised a shakeup, he gave it to his team.

It had to end sooner or later— and I’ll take this ending (and its $30 million in expiring contracts) over a slow, painful, fruitless fade any day of the week.

Chauncey was my favorite Piston. Likely will always be. Joe did the right thing— he rolled the dice on this season and it could pay off. If it doesn’t, we still win. He bought us a much brighter future with this move.

Since you’re not a regular community member here WLM1 (though I remember you when you were WaltonLikesMen), I’d like to ask a friendly favor: stop with the divisive bullshit. Don’t call us “clergymen” without looking at our records of statistically-based conjecture.

Also I take exception to the notion that everyone here blindly worships at the joe dumars altar. First, I think most of us would say that the darko pick was one of the worst transactions in nba history. Moreover, to suggest it is thoughtless homerism to have a level of comfort with a gm who has presided over the most dominant eastern conference team for nearly a decade is patently ridiculous.

@Forty:
+1,000

I respect both of you dudes and apologize for the bitchy sarcasm…there are no clergymen on DBB!

Mike, I’m not trying to divide people here…they were divided before I began posting again. I just like to try to challenge some of you because once the dust settles, I realize we share a lot of common ground…

Chauncey was also my favorite Piston, there’s a similarity right there that I picked up from this exchange. It’s not baseless pessimism, but it’s no where near the optimistic attitudes you and Forty display. And more power to you, you’re both good fans.

But, come on, get real. How many times have you seen the phrase “In Joe D we trust” posted on here? It’s this whole mindstate that I’ve seen some Pistons fans adopt that makes it hard for them to see some of Joe D’s flaws. I too, Forty, have a level comfort with Dumars, but also have some reservations.

Again, my apologies for the clergymen comment, but don’t expect me to stop challenging some of the opinions on here and I fully expect mine to be challenged in return…

My biggest concern right now is with the disturbingly weak defense we’ve been playing. McDyess should really help settle the bench down and take a little pressure off the other bigs, so I’m really interested to see how the next 10-15 games go. And yes, I’d love all of my pessimistic views to be proven wrong…

I agree that the defense has been a disappointment. I’m also eager to see what effect McDyess’ perimeter shooting will have on the second unit.

But I would say my biggest concern at this point is Rodney Stuckey. It’s early, he’s clearly got talent, and he has still yet to play a full 82 games of regular season ball. But it’s never good when young players regress. Time will tell, but it’s been a disturbing trend for him so far – he’s just been awful. As a point of comparison I’m far less concerned about Amir (who hasn’t actually been that bad) or Rip (streaks of cold shooting are less troubling than the amazingly inefficient ast/to numbers Stuckey has put up…especially given that Hamilton is a far more time-tested commodity.)

“It’s not baseless pessimism, but it’s no where near the optimistic attitudes you and Forty display.”

When the vast, vast majority of active DBBers were predicting the Laker game a rollover loss for our boys, I wasn’t among them. I didn’t say “we’re gonna win cuz we’re the Pistons!11”, I said “we’ve got this game” because our matchups favor DET over LA. They always have. My optimism was educated, it was based on seasons worth of data joined with my gut on how Iverson would perform against Fisher.

Yeah, I’d say your pessimism is nowhere near the optimism of myself and Forty. Ours is based on seasons and seasons and seasons of data. Yours is based on 5 regular season losses. Thereby, baseless.

“And yes, I’d love all of my pessimistic views to be proven wrong…”

I’d just like all of your pessimistic views to be quiet.

@Forty:
I agree re: Hamilton/Amir. In fact, I just ran an interesting stat:
13 games into this season, Hamilton is shooting 39%.

Last season, Hamilton shot 49% on the season.

13 games into that season, however, he only shot 42% from the field. He wasn’t adjusting to a new backcourt partner last season either…

Hamilton is just missing shots. Iverson actually seems to be finding open looks for him. He looks like he might not have been so diligent during the off-season, which would explain the rust.

“He looks like he might not have been so diligent during the off-season, which would explain the rust.”

Hey, growing a beard is hard work!

Sorry, hit submit by mistake…

The more troubling long term issue is help defense. Without Chauncey, we are vulnerable to dribble penetration.

Since Chauncey’s departure, opposing starting PGs are averaging 23.1 per 40 minutes on 56% shooting. And that includes Derek Fisher’s bizarre 4-16 performance.
      
McDyess can help stop the hemorrhaging, but with Iverson in the lineup, he’s going to need a lot of help, especially against scoring slasher types.

“I’d just like all of your pessimistic views to be quiet.”

Sorry man, I didn’t mean to fuck up your whole day like that…my bad.

Next time I post I’ll be sure to throw on a big smile to protect the overall stability of Mike Payne’s hyper-optimistic domain.

I would have ignored you, as I do the rest of the negative nancies that get their panties in the bunch when the Stones lose a couple games in a row. But hey, you named me, so I shared my opinion on why many of us share an “educated optimism” about the future of this team.

“The ones like me that don’t seem to thrilled by the move seem to rely more on reality-based arguments (you know, what’s happening RIGHT NOW) when explaining their stance.”

How about what happened BACK THEN (as in three straight losses in the ECF)? The team would more than likely not win a title as they were constructed at the beginning of the year (is that overly optimistic?). And they probably wouldn’t have won in the three years they would have had Chauncey.

Myself, Forty and Mike Payne are pretty clear in thinking that the trade is a gamble. How is that being overly optimistic? None of us would say that this trade makes us unequivocably better. It may in fact be a disaster. But, if that’s the case, there’s 20mil coming off the books. What the three of us are saying, my homophobic friend, is that it was worth a shot. And “worth a shot” doesn’t sound like something Pollyanna would say.

As for “In Joe We Trust…” He did win three championships so I’ll trust his judgement even when I think he’s made a mistake (extending Rip, for example).

This is because he tends to fix his bad moves when they become apparent (Darko, Arroyo, Nazr, etc.).

I would argue that he’s misfired much less than Ainge, Kupchak, and whoever runs the Cavs have. Only Pritchard and Buford seem to have a better track record.

I don’t want to judge this trade after 10 games. We haven’t had much practice time with AI and we need to get Dyess back to help the second unit. Stuck’s pick-n-roll (or pop) with Dyess will help Stuck’s confidence. Pick-n-roll with Amir, Max or Kwmae ain’t gonna get it done.

I agree with the majority of posters here in that we got to get back to Piston D. I don’t agree with the analogy that Billups was a great, or even a very good defensive PG. He continually got beat off the dribble by quicker guards and with Mo W in Clev, Harris in NJ and Rose in Chi, it would have continued. (After watching Rose against the Jazz on Mon, I don’t think it matters whose guarding him, even L. Hunter in his heyday).

I think that with the Lakers and Celts, we have the best starting 5 in the league. Though I do think the parts are bigger than the whole at this point, but I think that will change. For the sake of arguement, let’s say the Pistons are 8-5 with Chauncey still aboard. How many people would be screaming that Joe D. do something? Would we all be hitting the panic button as some are now? I can see the comments now. “Same old Pistons.” “We are playing like before.” “There’s no sense of urgency.” “Blow it up like you said you were going to Joe.” I think Joe D. made this trade now so he didn’t get wedged in around the trade deadline to take a worse deal and to have as much time for the players to adapt. I mean, typically with a tradeline deal, we’re talking about guys who are added that might be the missing piece, or a mid-levle superstar. Very rarely does a future HOF (who can still get it done) get traded at the deadline and lead his team to the championship. With Dyess coming back (THANKFULLY!!), we traded Billups for AI. We all agree no matter how many minutes Max & Amir play, they weren’t going to put us over the top. Ditto Kwame. We know what this group has done the last 3 years with CB, which was basically losing to teams they should have beat (small allowance for Celts contra-arguement). So at worst if we get to the 2nd round or ECF and lose, where exactly are we? the same as before but with 20-25M in cap space. And no matter how much we all wish it, how many of truly believed the training camp roster was going to get it done this year? How many of us were screaming for Joe to do something?

I look at it this way. There was at best a 50/50 chance we get past the ECF this year with the roster at training camp. I think at worst it’s still 50/50, but with AI in a 7 game series I like the current 50/50 better. I also believe that on any given nite, AI has the ability to just “go off.” That’s something we didn’t have before. Opposing teams now have to take into account “we need to be sure to stop AI” or atleast figure him into their scheme. I truly believe teams are scheming defensively against the pistons differently than they were before…and in a good way for us. We just need to start playing some DEFENSE and it starts tonite with the Knicks!!

Seriously WLM1, what’s your point? That we won’t win the championship? Well, were we going to before? You’d have to be worshiping at the alter of the flip switcher to believe that. The point was to put us in better chance to win the title down the road rather than remain a declining team with all its eggs in the basket of Amir and Stuckey. That’s a bad idea? Seriously?

We’re still in the same shape that we were in before, contenders in the East and it’ll take some breaks for us to make the finals. But to be able to put ourselves in position to build for the future by adding a major free agent while remaining contenders – that’s impressive. What other team has ever pulled that off? I’m sorry that you miss Chauncey. I really am. But you can put on a little Coldplay and think about the good times.

“I’m sorry that you miss Chauncey. I really am. But you can put on a little Coldplay and think about the good times.”

Not much of a Coldplay fan, but I’ll give it a try…

“What the three of us are saying, my homophobic friend, is that it was worth a shot. And "worth a shot" doesn’t sound like something Pollyanna would say.”

I understand what you guys are saying, really, I do. Four seasons of coming up short has been frustrating, some kind of change was inevitable.

But why the knee-jerk trade Joe D decided on? 2 games into the season? Talk about a wasted training camp and pre-season, something that shouldn’t be taken for granted with a new coach coming in.

Michael Curry has a lot on his plate right now. At least with Chauncey out there he had a general on the floor. As of now, besides possibly McDyess, this team has no leader out on the court. The defense has taken a big hit and the offense is very out of sorts. The younger players with perhaps the exception of Afflalo have been struggling. I get it, these are all problems that can be fixed. Mike already mentioned that based on his seasons worth of stats, he expects the defense to get better.

But my problem with his seasons worth of stats that he uses as the basis of most of the things he says are that at this point they’re usuless…

This is a totally different team now. Far as I’m concerned, we have 9 games worth of data with the new look squad. Those 9 games have been anything but encouraging, save for the Laker and Cav wins.

But those wins aren’t enough for me to brush away some of the losses. Losing to Boston is understandable, but looking like you don’t care when your biggest rival is kicking your ass is inexcusable.

And does anyone else remember Curry talking over the summer about how Sheed is going to get back on the block and to help establish some kind of post game. So far Sheed is still chucking up three after three.

Now, there is just one more thing…

Mike, you mentioned that Chauncey was your favorite Piston and what not, so I was wondering, why you weren’t that upset that Joe D pretty much shafted the man? He could’ve left in 07 and gotten a better contract elsewhere. Instead he stayed, loses in the ECF again, and then gets shipped out two days into the next season. Of course, this wasn’t until Joe had Rip re-sign three days before the trade without mentioning anything about the deal to trade the PG that had allowed Rip to flourish.

By any means of the imagination, this trade was shady, if not a downright dick move to a guy that did a lot for this team…some of us feel he deserved better. The least you could do is not immediately give his number away.

If this subject risks destroying your fortress of solitude, then Mike, go ahead and ignore it…wouldn’t want you to have to take your head out of the clouds.

But, this could be your chance to help someone catch the holy ghost…

“He did win three championships so I’ll trust his judgement”

Don’t combine his titles won as a player with his one ring as a GM, they’re two different things. Jordan won six championships but I wouldn’t trust him to run a lemonade stand…

“If this subject risks destroying your fortress of solitude, then Mike, go ahead and ignore it…wouldn’t want you to have to take your head out of the clouds.”

Dude come on, don’t mis-characterize me. Have you read anything that I or anyone else have said here? That we’re aware of the risks here but we like the trade for its potential for this season and its HUGE impact on our future? That my personal opinion about this trade is based on data and gut, not 9 little games that have your knickers all soiled? My head ain’t in the clouds, princess, but you might want to pull yours out of the mud.

“Mike, you mentioned that Chauncey was your favorite Piston and what not, so I was wondering, why you weren’t that upset that Joe D pretty much shafted the man?”

I was upset about one thing and one thing only— that Iverson took #1. I want that number retired for Chauncey. Otherwise, giving Chauncey a homecoming to end his career? I would have been upset if it happened any other way.

Its not like Chauncey (or anyone else) didn’t have this coming. He was the team’s captain, and he failed us. Flip failed us as well. Joe got sick of sitting by and watching it.

“If this subject risks destroying your fortress of solitude”

Scroll up. Notice how no one agrees with you? Notice how everyone else brings solid, informed points, you bring whiny conjecture based on 5 losses? Cheer up, buddy pats you on the back, everything is gonna be okay.

“But why the knee-jerk trade Joe D decided on 2 games into the season?”

Because he was waiting for the Max and Rip extensions. It would have been a knee-jerk move if he had made the deal right after the season ended. Instead, he put all of his ducks in a row and made sure that the deal would actually still make sense in the long term.

“He could’ve left in 07 and gotten a better contract elsewhere. Instead he stayed, loses in the ECF again, and then gets shipped out two days into the next season.”

If Chauncey didn’t want to be traded, then he should have been a better leader. Loyalty’s fine, but not making a move that will make the team better because it might hurt a guy’s feelings is stupid. The point is to win a title, which is the point that all of your posts are missing. Whether Dumars is an ass, our defense is weaker, you miss Chauncey, whatever, it’s all irrelevant. The only point that matters is what gives us the best chance to win a title, whether this year or the near future.

Just saw read this, thought it addressed some of the issues people have brought up here…just an opinion piece, but it was a good read.

http://gmoneysack.blogspot.com/2008/11/joe-dumars-genius-or-idiot.html

Shinons, let it go…there won’t be another title for a very long time, at least a decade.

Man, throwing meat to puppies and see them try to act like wolves sure is entertaining.

“My head ain’t in the clouds, princess, but you might want to pull yours out of the mud.”

Feelings caught????

Wlm – I think you’re beating on a straw man at this point. People are basing their support for the trade on cap space and the ability to reload for the future. Granted we’re also saying we think this is an interesting dice roll in the meantime. But reiterating your complaints about our play since the trade doesn’t engage us on our main point – that we’re now going to be a better team in 2009 and 2010 than we were before the trade.

So to the extent you think it’s a bad trade, I think you need to prove how the incremental losses you forsee this year aren’t worth carlos boozer, et al next season or the one after. And even then, people will still justifiably dispute your ability to judge the incremental pain this season based on 9 games with iverson. I just think your argument has a significantly greater burden of proof than “I haven’t liked the last 9 games – can you believe minny housed us?”

Forty +1,000!

WLM1, really what’s your point? Stop trying to divde us! Take your baseless pessimism and stick it where the sun don’t shine!

Don’t you realize what an appealing city Detroit is to millionaire athletes? We’re sure to bring in some great talent over the next couple summers…hell, who wouldn’t want to live in Detroit? The economy is booming, crime rates have never been lower, and we have weather that puts Miami to shame!

You want bright lights? Forget New York or L.A., Detroit has got it all!

I can’t believe the nerve of this guy!

WLM1, +10,000!

Fuck you WLM1!

Wlm – you’re right, detroit sucks. We’ll never convince anyone to play here of their own volition. Except rip, tay, billups, maxiell, and mcdyess – all of whom could have left by their own choice. And there’s no evidence to suggest we could get carlos boozer – he doesn’t care about money. Only big pimpin on the beach in salt lake.

WLM — you’re slipping into your old habits. Quit being a d-bag or go away.

Wlm – you’re right, detroit sucks. We’ll never convince anyone to play here of their own volition. Except rip, tay, billups, maxiell, and mcdyess – all of whom could have left by their own choice. And there’s no evidence to suggest we could get a guy like carlos boozer – he doesn’t care about money. Only big pimpin on the beach in salt lake.

You can’t seriously be arguing that cap space is useless to all but the largest, most glamorous market teams? There’s a lot in between “omg lebron lebron lebron!” and “we can sign a quality, young free agent.”

Apologies for the inadvertent double post

WLM1: With respect to CB getting more money elsewhere: That may be true, but who was offering it? He knew when he signed he would be judged on NOT getting to the ECF, but getting to the finals. At the end of the day, two willing partners signed a deal.

As for the timing of the trade, Joe worked all summer and things didn’t come to fruition. Do you pull the trigger a week into the season or keep going, being fairly certain that your team as currently constructed isn’t going to get to the finals? Joe D. said as much during the summer. Sure, it would have been nice to pull the trigger earlier in the summer, but was Denver willing?

Working AI into a group of 4 vets (5 including Dyess) that have played together for several years is easier than say trading Rip&Tay for Melo, or any other 2 for 1 trade.

In the end, what gives a team the best chance to get to the finals. As people point out when they reflect stats, we had a 0-3 stat the last 3 years getting to the finals under CB. I’m not blaming him solely, but if the games starts with the QB, the game ends with the PG on that team.

Two final thoughts: I think CB’s defense was overrated. I also think it was partially covered by Flip’s zone schemes during the games. Flip went to that for 1. a different look, 2. big man foul trouble, 3. stop guard penetration. And since numbers 1 & 2 won’t happen until mid to late game, I gotta think #3 was a primary reason we played as much zone under Flip that we did.

And I pointed out last summer after the Bos series: In game 6, after the Celts had just hit a 3 to cut the lead to 1 (after we had a 10 point lead I believe) CB came down, dribbled the ball for 5+ seconds and while Rajon was trying to guard Sheed on the post launched a 3 pointer with Garnett on him with nearly 8 seconds left on the shot clock. And it was a 25 footer because KG was playing a bit off CB not wanting to get beat off the dribble. I think right then and there, Joe D decided this wasn’t the point guard he wanted. That’s not to take away from what CB had done over the years. I think Joe D. thought to himself: If he feels comfortable taking that shot given the circumstances and what was at stake, he doesn’t understand what I want." And after 5 years, if doesn’t get it now, he won’t ever get it.

Unless you care to make the argument that we were winning a title any year between this year or in 2011 when we’d be paying Billups over $13 mil, you’ve got nothing. Nice try with the baiting though.

I do think most of us would agree that giving ai #1 was weak sauce (and why would he request it?) Chauncey is the man, that wasn’t cool. That said, I don’t think it’s the end of the world…what we talkin bout? Jerseys?

“WLM — you’re slipping into your old habits. Quit being a d-bag or go away.”

Agreed.

Go Pistons!

This conversation will have more validity after the next 11 games. 7 at home, and most against beatable teams. Another 5-6 record, and the “what’s wrong with this team” question will be more relevant.

“Two final thoughts: I think CB’s defense was overrated.”

I think Chauncey was the Piston most affected by the rule changes. He was a good physical defender. But, the rule changes put a premium on speed.

“This conversation will have more validity after the next 11 games. 7 at home, and most against beatable teams. Another 5-6 record, and the "what’s wrong with this team" question will be more relevant.”

Agreed. I think the “they’re still figuring out how to play together” argument loses weight at the end of this month. Starting with the Portland game.

QD – agree 100pct.

You know, on second thought maybe I am a shameless joe d homer. Joe Duuuuuuuuuuuuuumars!

Someone mentioned coldplay, but when I think about the pistons…“it starts in my toes, makes me wrinkle my nose”…

/devin harris’d

Also, mw I’ll be at the palace on friday for the bucks. Any chance you’ll let me buy you a beer/canadian club? I owe you for the terrific blog – although you might owe my employers for a lot of destroyed productivity.

Back to basketball…

I wouldn’t say that the next 10-15 games will be enough to judge the full strength of this team, but they will give us some kind of glimpse into the future.

An 8-5 record has us 2.5 games behind Cleveland and 4th overall in the East. Now I know we should be taking this thing one game at a time, but I can’t help but wonder (oh man, I just had a Sex in the City moment) if the #4 seed is the highest spot the Pistons will claim. Cleveland and Boston have both been playing pretty good ball and I don’t see any reason for that to discontinue. Since the winner of the SE division gets the #3 seed, the #4 seed seems like a strong possibility.

If we do end up there, I just hope Atlanta doesn’t get the 5th seed. That’s a playoff headache I wouldn’t mind avoiding…

So the next three home games will be against the Knicks, the Bucks, and the Blazers. I would think that the Knicks and Bucks would be easy wins, but easy wins might be a thing of the past…at least for a little while. But no one could argue that those games are more than winnable.

Portland on the other hand, well, they might be a problem. Lots of youth that seems to be meshing together. Anyone see them torch the Bulls last week?

Does anyone know if Amir will be starting tonight? I know Matt posted about that being a possibility, haven’t heard anything conclusive yet though.

Main things I’ll be watching are the defense (are we giving up 100+ points and 45%+ fg?), the effort (if they’re losing do they still look interested), and how the bench reacts to getting McDyess back. Some people have been second-guessing Stuckey lately, but I think his play will improve. He’ll have plenty of sub-par games, but that’s what young players do.

With the Knicks losing their two leading scorers, the Pistons should come away with a win tonight…final score prediction:

Pistons 106, Knicks 93

Well, wlm1 has some support at espn with bill simmons. Sports guy doesn’t do much to prove his point, either. As for his top six, I’d say the spurs and utah picks are just to keep his readers happy, because neither team is any where close to an NBA ship right now.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/081126&sportCat=nba

Long time reader, never commented before, but wanted to throw out a bit more sensible of a critique of the trade. My main problem with it is that I think Billups was our best offensive player, whose game was unlikely to fall apart in the next year or two. But, I also totally agree that he was the leader of the team the last few years, so takes a lot of the blame for failing to “get it done” in the later stages of the playoffs.

The problem is, for us to improve from the trade this year then AI has to come close to approximating what Billups gave us, I happen to think Billups is a slightly better player offensively (although playing a very different style), which means that some slack has to be taken up by others (i.e. tay+rip+sheed). That’s clearly not impossible, so I’m still kinda optimistic.

But, short-term the trade created a bit of a weakness that we’ve never had since Billups came here, in that there are times when we have line-ups with very few good shooters (dyess will help solve it, but not completely). To take the playoff series against philly last year, which almost drove me crazy even though we won, what still stuck out is that Billups unique combo of great shooter and able to get himself to the line was central to stones success, and gave us (possibly unfortunate?) wiggle room where we could basically just out-efficiency teams over time. Maybe that safety net being gone will ultimately be good, who knows?

Long-term, my critique would be that because I don’t think Billups is really gonna get worse in the next year or two (he’s still a hell of a player as evidenced by play in Denver), I guess I don’t see why he couldn’t have been traded for cap relief later. I doubt we’re gonna spend much this summer, because I don’t see players that would likely put us over the top- so the cap space is probably for 2010. Possible counter-argument is that teams will be sitting on their expiring contracts next year in anticipation of that offseason. Again, who knows?

But, I personally believe that you can pretty much always trade someone as good as Billups for cap relief- what makes the trade appealing is combining future cap space with getting a good player back. But there’s definitely no guarantee that it’s gonna work either long-term or short-term.

I guess what I found questionable in the logic of the trade was the combination of the timing and who was traded. Seemed to me that Billups was probably our hardest player to replace in the short-term (especially offensively)- and having been signed to a very reasonable contract, his value wasn’t likely to go down anytime soon. But, Sheed and Rip (sorta, not anymore) had relatively high values for the same reason that we are all saying the AI trade was a win-win: they were both basically on expiring contracts. So essentially, we traded an asset that was likely to stay valuable fairly stably, and held on to two others that in relative terms are/were/ closer to their peak values (not the case anymore with Rip, after extension).

Anyway, this is long enough, but gotta say I’m definitely with you Mike on the jersey number f-up. That is, at a minimum, pretty petty seeming, and imho is kinda terrible for karma purposes.

Gabe

You’ve got some solid points, particularly regarding the uncertainty long term.

I would disagree, however, that Chauncey was the most difficult to replace. I think Sheed is the most difficult to replace simply due to the position he plays.

Also, it kind of blows me away here that you say Chauncey was a better offensive player. I would agree that he is a superior point guard, but let’s be real – AI is ridiculous. There are a lot of things that Chauncey can do better and it may turn out that AI is not a good fit, but let’s not forget that Chauncey had a lot of weaknesses on offense that hampered us in the playoffs.

As for the timing issue, I like that we did it this year. We’re getting a look at AI and have the opportunity to sign Boozer this offseason. By himself, he isn’t going to put us over the top, but we’ll also have the option to resign Sheed and/or Ai at reduced rates or wait until 2010 and get another FA. Of course, as you said, there is no guarantee we’ll get our man. But I think that by doing the trade now, we’ve given ourselves two chances to get somebody pretty good while simultaneously getting a year to evaluate AI. Not so bad, but there is a significant risk for sure.

“Also, it kind of blows me away here that you say Chauncey was a better offensive player.”

I think he means that Chauncey made everyone else better on offense, therefore making him the better player to have running your offense.

If you’re talking raw points…yeah, A.I. is ridiculous and eons ahead of Billups. Except for 3-point shooting…I’m not a stats guy so I don’t know their percentages, but I don’t have the confidence in Iverson to make late game 3’s like Chauncey could. Chauncey had so much upper-body strength that it would compensate for tired legs at the end of games when it came to shooting long shots. Iverson uses his legs much more in his shots than Chauncey did. Chauncey had one of those shots that looks like it’s all in his wrist, if that makes any sense.

“but let’s not forget that Chauncey had a lot of weaknesses on offense that hampered us in the playoffs.”

As did Sheed and Tayshaun (if he had a tough guard, which he always did).

Others have mentioned how smaller guards gave us problems in the past, but I’d argue that while I agree they could give us fits at times, it really wasn’t every team’s stance that attacking Chauncey off the dribble was the key to success against Detroit.

What worries me with Iverson is that other teams will look at our starting five and see right away that he’s the weak link on defense to exploit. Chauncey didn’t seem to allow that to become an acceptable notion, overrated as he may have been on defense.

One can only hope that AI’s offense wiill make up for any extra points he’ll give up on defense…

QD: Agree the rule changes hurt not only CB but the entire piston defense.

Gabe: I see your point on Billups being the hardest to replace short-term. But that’s why I like the trade this early. It gives us plenty of time to adjust, hell, 70+ games.

I do believe Amir is starting tonight due to match-ups. Lee & Chandler are the front court for Knicks. More athleticism than kwame can bring.

“I do believe Amir is starting tonight due to match-ups. Lee & Chandler are the front court for Knicks. More athleticism than kwame can bring.”

Good to hear. I’ve been pretty pleased with Kwame, but it’s good to see Curry giving Amir another shot. Hopefully he doesn’t get into quick foul trouble so he can log more than 15-18 minutes.

An earlier poster mentioned how they’d like to see Detroit give some of the younger guys some more minutes, even if it cost us some games, to help prepare them for the later part of the season and the playoffs. I think they used Chicago and what they’re doing with Tyrus Thomas as an example. I don’t mind that idea, especially seeing how many minutes Sheed has been logging lately.

whattya know…

the offense doesn’t run through Hamilton anymore and he reverts back to his Washington Wizards’ form.

I got blasted in my post last offseason for calling Rip out to be nothing more than a product of a system.

I hate to say I told you so…

/LawyerBoy’d

Careful Boney, too much pessimism and all of your comments will have to be moderated before they appear…

It’s not pessimism — it’s your history of trolling (“Man, throwing meat to puppies and see them try to act like wolves sure is entertaining.”) and personal attacks. You’ve got two strikes — if you don’t like being moderated, there are billions of other sites on the internet where you can act like a child.

When you take efficiency into account, it’s not unreasonable to think Billups is a better offensive player (I think Billups is clearly a better player for team offense, but that’s another issue). Iverson is very shaky from 3 point range, whereas Billups took and made a lot of them. Iverson gets easier shots close to the basket, but Billups is a better shooter overall. Both are great at drawing fouls, where Iverson’s around average and Billups is money.

Billups did have weaknesses that teams exploited in the playoffs, but for the past two years, the Lakers and Spurs crowded the paint and dared Iverson to take midrange jumpers (which he did), and he was terrible.

Iverson has him clearly beat when it comes to volume, but even now, his 19 points per game isn’t at all impressive. He’ll probably average more once his shooting comes around and once he establishes a clearer role on the team, but I’m not convinced that the team needed a volume guy.

I’m not thrilled with the trade as far as the play on the floor is concerned. Still, it’s much too early to make any solid judgments of the team. Most people here were taking a wait and see approach with this year anyhow with the new coach and the integration of the younger guys, and they’re 8-5 after one of the toughest stretches of the season. If the team’s problems (uneven offense and poor defense) persist during this upcoming stretch (which is relatively easy), I’ll start worrying.

Boney: Could tonight be the night that Amir busts loose a crazy dunk on someone’s head? Did you get him your pamphlet?

“there are billions of other sites on the internet where you can act like a child.”

For example:

http://www.perkisabeast.com/blog/

Oh sure, I make one little negative comment about Canadian Club, and now I’m under moderation. This blog has gone corporate.

I do agree that Chauncey is the better offensive player at this stage in his career, though I’m hoping has a bit of that early-decade mojo that he is storing up for a playoff run.

Paul M: I think Iverson creates alot more fouls from the opposition than Chauncey. CB got his by posting up smaller guards which I thin caused stagnation. As for stacking the paint, every team does that and as it relates to Iverson, he can still get his shot off and create his own shot. Billups not so much. I guess my point is if I can decide going into a game who I would like to guard, I’ll take CB before AI.

I agree as I haven’t been that impressed with the floor play, but I think that’s a function of not having practice time together. I am really concerned though with our defense, particularly pick-n-roll. Help defense and rotations come from practice, but straight up tough man-to-man starts and stops with desire and I haven’t seen alot of piston pride when it comes to defense. If anything, the attitude might be “we got AI” so we can always find ways to score so defense isn’t much of a thought now. I want to see some of that get up in their grill and challange the guy’s manhood defense that I think has been lacking so far.

It’s also worth noting that there is no way AI is as bad as he has played so far this season. This would represent a fairly unprecedented dropoff in production. Same goes for Rip and even Stuckey. So clearly there are some chemistry issues to work out.

Mark: Yeah, they draw fouls in different ways, but their rate of drawing fouls is pretty much the same, which is what I was concerned with. That’s a fair point, though.

As for the packing the paint, no one can prevent AI from creating shots, but that strategy was employed very effectively by the Lakers and Spurs to coax him into taking 15-20 foot jumpers. His midrange game isn’t bad, but focusing on it nullifies his greatest strength, which is getting to the basket and drawing fouls.

Agreed with kevin s, though. Iverson has given little to no concessions to age despite annual predictions of a downturn (like every Piston starter for the past bazillion years), and his struggles so far seem to be because of his hazy role on the team rather than a real decrease in ability. Rip, Maxiell and especially Stuckey are also playing below par. The team is playing nowhere near its potential, yet it’s 8-5.