Well put.

What he said ^

Yup.

1) Put the ball in Iverson’s hands.
2) Have Afflalo on the court for many minutes with Iverson.
2) Play Iverson 32 – 36mpg instead of 40mpg.

It’s really that simple.

It doesn’t matter who starts. And having Afflalo on the court with AI will involve lightening Rip’s minutes.

Playing Iverson heavy minutes while keeping him from handling the ball is a recipe for finishing under .500.

Also, I know that everyone in Pistons-Land from Dumars on down considers Stuckey THE FUTURE, but I just don’t see it. The guy is definitely an NBA player, and should have a long career in the association, but I don’t see him ever becoming one of the top two players on a winning team.

It’s difficult for me to understand what the Pistons’ high command has been doing this year without thinking that they have an unrealistic opinion of what Stuckey will become. Best I can tell, that is influencing their rest of their decisions in a very bad way.

i don’t think stuckey is being inserted as a starter because of his promise, he was inserted because he’s been playing well, he plays more like a pg than anyone else and the tandem of iverson/rip wasn’t working. i’ve been watching almost every game since iverson arrived, and i’ve seen no indication that simply putting the ball in his hands is any recipe for success.

“Maybe in some parallel universe, Rip Hamilton and Allen Iverson can share the same backcourt and thrive, but I don’t see it happening here.”

I’ve been saying that for several weeks now, this much has been obvious from that start. You start a lineup of two shooting guards, a point forward, a power forward who prefers to play outside, and a center who has no offense, you’re not going to have great chemistry.

Obviously, both Rip and AI can’t start, but they’re insisting on trying to make it work. Makes a lot more sense for AI to play with the second unit. A lot of the lineups and rotations has been because they’re assuming AI and Rip must play together, when the evidence indicates otherwise.

As for Curry, I’m willing to be more patient watching him develop. Dealing Chauncey has affected the team emotionally more than everyone thinks. But, small ball isn’t going to work, history will tell you this much is obvious. You can’t go inside out, and you need Sheed on the block to do that, at the very least, you won’t be winning any championships.

Totally agree… AI needs to come off the bench. If he has issues with it, oh well, he’s only here a year.

As far as what IS this team supposed to be under Curry… We’re supposed to be better defensively and have a new run-the-play-through-someone-different-every-play offense. If we solve our Defense issues I think that will help solve our transition game. Our defense seemed fine, if not great, the first 4 games. AI is a gambler defensively and gets burned far too often to justify his “high” number of steals. If AI came off the bench would IMMEDIATELY solve 2 (defense and transition buckets) problems for us.

Our half court free flowing offense can be resolved by Curry bailing on the whole idea… which is really the crux of what ails us. Curry clinging to this new offense is hurting us 3-fold, by refusing to remove AI from the stating lineup.

Given all this, I have faith Curry will change eventually. Something Flip never did. I’d STILL take Curry over Flip. You can work with Curry… Flip was set in stone.

“i’ve been watching almost every game since iverson arrived, and i’ve seen no indication that simply putting the ball in his hands is any recipe for success.”

I’ve watched every minute of every game Iverson has played for the past 5 years, and I’ve got an idea of what he can and can’t do.

If you give him the ball and play him with a backcourt mate who stands still on the weak side and can knock down wide open jump shots (aka Afflalo), he will make good things happen a high percentage of the time.

If you keep the ball away from him and only give it to him as the shot clock is winding down, he won’t make good things happen.

Iverson makes good things happen with his handle – it’s what makes him a special player. If you voluntarily take his handle away by constantly playing him on the weak side, as Curry is currently doing, you are creating a recipe for disaster.

I don’t care who starts, but if winning this year matters, you need to be playing one of two backcourt sets at a time: Iverson with Afflalo and Stuckey with Hamilton. Sometimes, you’ll play three guard alignments, but when you go with two guards, it should be one of the above two sets.

Iverson’s minutes should be limited both to keep him fresh at his advanced age, and to give the Stuckey/Hamilton backcourt minutes.

“Iverson makes good things happen with his handle – it’s what makes him a special player.”

To amplify slightly, Dumars talked about wanting Iverson because of his ability to get to the FT line, which the Pistons had been lacking.

But by keeping the ball out of Iverson’s hands, he’s only taking 6.1 FT’s per game in Detroit, which would be the lowest mark of his entire career. (He shot 9.7 FT’s per game last year, as reference.)

And by keeping the ball out of Iverson’s hands, you are also defeating the other purpose Dumars spoke about after the trade – Iverson’s ability to draw double-teams, which creates open lanes and shots for his teammates. Iverson only draws double-teams off the dribble.

If you take away Iverson’s handle by keeping the ball out of his hands, he becomes an average NBA player at very best.

AI in his press conference following the trade said he’d do whatever the coach wanted. If that’s true, then Curry doesn’t want him on the bench. If AI flips out coming offthe bench, he’s a liar.
There’s a very simple way to verify this one way or the other.

Amir’s got a couple of years left on his contract and Max just signed a 5 year deal, are athletic and can rebound and Curry’s saying (more or less) “just get around to putting them in” after getting out rebounded 39-34 by Wiz. What freakin’ game was he watching?

There was a time everyone in the East Conf was looking for a PF to play on the perimeter to guard Sheed or a 2 to run around with Rip or a big PG so Chauncey couldn’t post him up. We trade CB and now all of a sudden WE’RE trying to match up to teams? I just don’t buy it. It’s a coaching problem. As for MC being Dumars guy: I can see Joe having immense repect for MC because of the WAY he played the game and Joe D’s background coming from a small school and all. But that type of association of success by prior effort doesn’t hold up with those type of attributes. See MJ in a GM role.

I would suggest for the next 15-20+ games or so until the All-star break, we go 7 or 8 deep and straighten this crap out. Egos will get hurt, some players minutes will go up or down. You got tired legs? It don’t matter. You’ll have all summer to rest them if we don’t improve now.

Pick up the ##$%@ phone Joe.

A-Fuc*ing-men Matt.

I… ya know what, I’ll let it lie at that. Great post Mr. Watson.

We’re still the 8 seed according to Hollinger playoff odds! Who says this is a lottery team?!

Excellent post. Let’s try to separate distinct concerns:

(1) The “new” starting lineup and rotation used in the Wizards game is a huge mistake. That’s fixable.

(2) AI and Rip shouldn’t play a lot of minutes together, i.e. one of them should come off the bench. That’s fixable in theory, although it will be a delicate matter of ego-managing in practice, if it happens.

(3) The Pistons lack a true point guard. I like Stuckey. He has ice water in his veins and some nice skills. But he’s not a pure point guard. I know he’s in the learning/developing stage, but he’s a think-shoot-first kind of player. AI, obviously, is a think-shoot-first guy, and Rip and Afflalo don’t even pretend to be point guards. Bynum seems to have potential, but he’s small and has no experience.

(4) The Pistons bigs have weaknesses, maybe more than we’ve admitted. Of the ‘Sheed, Dyess, Brown, Johnson, and Maxiell group, only ’Sheed is capable of consistent offensive production in the post, and he doesn’t like to play there. Beyond that, only ‘Dyess is capable of consistent offensive production period. At least two of the remaining three — Brown, Johnson, and Maxiell — need to be productive on a regular basis, and if they aren’t big offensive options they sure better play good defense and rebound. But apparently the coach has lost faith in them. Have they all reached their potential or close to it? I would rather not think so, but it’s a worry.

(5) The Pistons may just be a bunch of good players who don’t fit well together. As I’ve said before, I would probably take Detroit’s 9-11th guys over their opposite numbers on most any other team. But they still lack a true point guard and a consistent post offensive threat. Maybe a trade would be a good idea (as long as it didn’t screw up cap space for next year), but point guards and good post centers are the hardest positions to get.

(6) Curry might well just be a poor coach. Again, I was never on the “fire Flip” bandwagon, even though I got frustrated with the ECF losses. And I know some of it is on the players, and I know that he’s been dealing with personnel he wasn’t expecting. But that Wizards game was just bizarre — equal to the “Lions win the toss in OT and elect to kick off” bizarre — and there have been other bad signs.

(7) The top of the East has gotten tougher. I know it’s early, but I don’t see how this Pistons lineup, even if it improves and gels, gets past Boston or the Cavs, barring some major injuries or disruptions to those two teams. Maybe we have to deal with that and realize that no team can be a legit title contender every year for a decade, and hope the cap space brings us FPCB or someone like that next year. But it will make me sad if this era of being part of the NBA elite really does end this suddenly and, frankly, embarrassingly.

You know, Rip for Andre Miller (expiring contract) works straight up…

Very nice – Matt
I hope Curry proves us wrong – He may be a genius-
I’ll hold out until Feb. before I hit the panic button -

Don’t forget
In 2004(Title) Larry Brown, we were wondering the same thing – what type of team? what’s with the rotation?
the first 20 games 10-10, then the next 20 13-7,
I know the Feb.(Rasheed) trade help for the rest of the season -
The identity of the team took shape -

Great post. All very well-said.

Here’s what I would add:

I’ve been concerned about the AI trade since the day it happened, and all my fears are coming to fruition. The main problem is the identity crisis which has been thrust upon this roster. Whose team is it? What style will we play? Who takes the big shots?

I would also add a much bigger gripe about what’s happened to Max and Amir. Curry promised to play those guys more – something Flip always promised and never did (at least concerning Max). IMO, starting Amir was a mistake. It was an error in the opposite direction. But what we observed in the last game was inexcusably poor coaching.

Let me elaborate briefly: What we needed against Washington was defense and intensity. What two players on our roster make their living on those traits? Max and Amir. Yet, they never even got off the bench? That’s absurd.

Rasheed played inspired basketball through 3 quarters against Washington. Yet, he remained on the bench for almost the entire 4th quarter… what? What is MC trying to prove? That we can’t win without Sheed? I guess you’ve made your point.

It cannot be put better than to say MC is not following through on any of his promises. The irony, of course, is that what he promised is exactly what we needed, as the first four games of the season demonstrated. Unfortunately, we no longer have the roster we had when MC took over, so adjustments need to be made.

Here’s how I see those adjustments. AI does not fit Detroit’s culture. That is not necessarily a bad thing or a knock against him; it’s merely an observation.

So, there are at least two ways around him. First, Detroit’s culture could change. Our franchise has defined itself by defense and team-oriented offense. We could change our style to run-n-gun, free lancing offense that benefits off turnovers and fast breaks. At times we have done that, but our defense has been too poor to allow it. We could run everything through AI, and at times that works, especially when we spread the floor with shooters. Unfortunately, that puts very tight limits on Rip and Tayshaun, who are not lights-out 3-point shooters and tend to be most effective when coming off screens away from the ball.

So in short, changing Piston culture seems an unlikely way to make this experiment work.

The other option would be to change AI’s style to fit our culture. That seems to be what MC is attempting, at least most of the time. The ball tends to be in Stuckey’s hands most of the time, and AI and Rip are running of screens. This works for Rip and Tay, but it puts AI in a situation that is unfamiliar for him. Not to mention that AI is not as solid a defender as CB or even Stucky, imo. He gets steals, but he gambles, and sometimes he loses.

So in short, changing AI to fit Pistons culture doesn’t seem to be working either… at least not yet.

Ultimately, the Pistons’ struggles since the trade boil down to unclear roles, and the uncertainty is both systemic and individual. Systemically, MC must ask the questions: “Who are we as a team, and what will our style of play be?” It’s not good enough to say we can beat you 130-120 or 80-70. As nice as that sounds, it’s not possible, at least not with this roster. This trade forces MC to rethink everything — literally. I think Pistons fans want us to stay the same, play defense, move the ball, etc. Maybe we will eventually reach those goals again, or maybe we need to redefine our style. No matter what is decided it is clear that this decision must be revisted; this new roster demands it.

On an individual level, the coaching staff needs to revist player roles and make those clear to each player. Players don’t – or shouldn’t anyway – define their own roles. Yet, it seems that is exactly what MC has allowed to happen. Sheed wants to shoot 3’s all day. Rip seems hesitant to take a secondary role to AI. AI seems reluctant to play like AI. And Max and Amir have gone from difference-makers to bench warmers.

I understand that the Pistons needed a shaking up if we were ever to reach the Finals, but this isn’t the shake up we need. This is just more of the same: bad coaching (from a good coach) that doesn’t utilize the strengths of the players we have. Sure, it will be a process, but the process doesn’t demand a losing record. There is far too much talent on our roster for that.

After Big Ben departed, it beecame apparent to me that Flip had lost the team. When MC took over, I was relived because I hoped he would not allow that to happen. Through 4 games, I loved the way we played. Since the trade, however, I fear that MC might be losing this roster already — and he must reassert himself if any of this is going to work. And you don’t reassert yourself by benching your young, motivated ,energetic players and by breaking the promises you made at the start of the season. You reassert yourself by establishing clear roles and demanding your players do everything in their power to fill them.

That is much more than I intened to write when I started… I hope at least one sentence of that is well-written and coherent. :P

“Excellent post. Let’s try to separate distinct concerns:

(1) The "new" starting lineup and rotation used in the Wizards game is a huge mistake. That’s fixable.

(et al)"

That’s what I tried to say but fumbled through it in the passion of the moment — and from hiding this webpage from the people walking by my cube ;)

Very well said. I agree completely.

What if we traded AI for an expiring contract? Instead of Rip for Andre Miller, what about AI?

Great post! I agree with basically everything.

@Petey: I totally agree about Iverson needing the ball in his hands. What happens multiple times per game is, after some penetration or a P&R, Stuckey/Rip/Tay will swing the ball to Iverson- who has an open 3 pointer. For most offenses, the SG will take that open shot, and the possession (make or miss) will have been a success. But with AI spotting up, the ball gets swung to him, he’s open- but he’s not a spot-up shooter, so he passes on it, and the possession basically restarts, except with less than 10 seconds left on the clock.

@Juicebox: I also agree with just about everything you said. I think everyone staying a little calm about Stuck is definitely a good idea. He’s starting to develop PG skills, but they definitely aren’t fully there yet. One minor quibble- and I’m just gonna put this out there, take it or leave it ;)- but our offense per 100 poss. is better with Amir on the court than with Sheed. I would shed a tear of joy if Curry would realize that big men who shoot jumpers are not as cool as he thinks (and he thinks they’re really really cool).

One more thing
Can anyone, anyone tell me why the beat(Pistions) writers are not
asking these questions or making these types of opinions-

doh, sorry that second point should be @Toledo Joe. My bad dude :(

“One more thing
Can anyone, anyone tell me why the beat(Pistions) writers are not
asking these questions or making these types of opinions-”

You’re asking why the press isn’t asking useful questions?

/sarcasm

“We could run everything through AI, and at times that works, especially when we spread the floor with shooters. Unfortunately, that puts very tight limits on Rip and Tayshaun, who are not lights-out 3-point shooters and tend to be most effective when coming off screens away from the ball.”

FWIW, I think Tay would flourish with the ball in AI’s hands. It’s only Rip who would suffer.

@ Petey

Which brings us back to bringing AI or Rip off the bench, I suppose. I just find it will be difficult for either of those players to accept that role.

Is there an alternative to that that makes any sense? Am I missing an option?

Brother BG,

Your right, I have no idea what I was thinking,
silly me – they only travel with team and eat with
the team.

“Which brings us back to bringing AI or Rip off the bench, I suppose. I just find it will be difficult for either of those players to accept that role.”

Both should be able to handle it.

AI made a point during his press conference that “doing it his way” hadn’t won him a title. Rip got a contract extension to deal with any diminishment of his role that would come with the AI trade.

Neither player is going to land a big contract in the future – the great bulk of their total NBA earnings have already been paid or guaranteed – so it shouldn’t be a money issue.

Personally, I think either option would work. If it were up to me, I’d start AI and have Rip play the Manu role, but the other way around is just about as good.

Curry ought to take a page from Popovich and make clear that starting is not a reward, coming off the bench is not a punishment, and that rotations are about finding ways to win, not about keeping players happy.

If Iverson plays 34mpg and Hamilton plays 26mpg, you only need to have them on the court together for 12mpg, and most of those minutes can come in a three guard alignment.

If you follow that kind of schedule, you can even have them both start, if egos demand it. (But Curry still ought to make the point that egos aren’t the main thing…)

BG:

I get at least three important ideas out of your post: (1) the team lacks an identity and the players lack clear, positive roles within that identity; (2) that there’s a good chance that AI can’t fit with this roster; and (3) that Curry has done a lousy job coaching so far.

(1) and (2) fit with my theory that Detroit has mismatched players. Good coaching could arguably compensate somewhat for that, but that brings us to (3) — and there we agree again.

Gabe:

Don’t get me wrong. I want Amir to be good, and I think he can be. It’s just that so far, he isn’t a consistent offensive post threat, even if the team does well with him on the court. But I want him, Kwame, and Maxiell all to play, and at least a couple of them to play significant minutes every game.

Remember two years ago we started 12-12 and ended up winning 53 games or something?

Petey:

Pop is my favorite NBA coach, and I love the way he manages his roster and star players. I think we agree that in theory, you are exactly right. Starting isn’t a reward, and being a bench player is not a punishment. I just hope egos don’t get in the way.

I do disagree, however, with your minute distribution. I would like to see Rip play more than 26 mpg. If he can handle coming off the bench, I don’t think he can handle having his minutes taken away. After all, he has won a championship with Detroit. AI hasn’t won one period. AI might have better numbers, but is he a winner? That much remains to be seen.

Toledo Joe: Man, you’re good with the numbers thing :) I’ll have to utilize that more often.

@Fadel – that was our worst team of the past 6 years. I don’t want to reenact that season. That Cleveland series was the most dysfunctional I had ever seen “this” group of Pistons. I’ll go to my grave thinking the better team lost that series.

Simply put, since this is Sheed’s, AI’s, and most likely Dyess’ last year we can’t afford to fumble through lineup changes, bad defense, and intangible offenses. We have to get on the same page and we have to do it NOW. It seems to me the easiest way to do it is to put Stuckey, Hamilton, Prince, Sheed, and Brown on the floor. Solid defense. AI coming off the bench has free reign… even if it is only for 25 minutes a game.

@Toledo Joe:
“The Pistons lack a true point guard”

This discussion has come up on DBB a few times in the past. Note that in this century, only one team has won a championship with a “true point guard”— that being the Detroit Pistons in 2004. The Celtics, the Spurs, the Heat and the Lakers all won championships without true point guards. Rondo, Parker, White Chocolate and Derek Fisher are not true point guards, but off-guards that score first, pass second.

The most effective of these, Parker and Rondoidkm (sorry, just threw up in my mouth for a second) are brilliant finishers who score most of their points in the paint.

If we want to follow the mold of NBA championships, we put a guy like Stuckey at the point. I’m not saying Stuckey is THE guy, but a player LIKE him has the potential of filling that mold. He’s showing that he can run plays, he can dictate the offense. He’s no Chauncey, but after being pretty hard on him earlier this season- I’m coming around to the kid very quickly.

In short, I think the lack of a true PG shouldn’t necessarily be on our radar for how we fix this team. Beyond that, I don’t think player personnel is a concern either. MC’s gotta get this shit under control. To that, I defer to our humble leader’s brilliant post above.

@ BG "Which brings us back to bringing AI or Rip off the bench, I suppose. I just find it will be difficult for either of those players to accept that role. "

Yes I do think that’d be difficult but I think MC should tell people their role and they adapt. Afterall, that’s why we have a coaching staff and if anyone objects they speak with Cowens. The original badboys accepted their roles. The Microwave. Buddha. Salley. Aqquire had a rep as a gunner and he worked in the system. It helped he was tight with Isiah and I do think it helped that Daly looked like he could have been part of the mob. But still, that’s what coaches do.

Players adapt and play in a system. I think our problem has been everytime we make a substitution or depending on who we start, or try to decide who we are going to start, we have to adjust our “system.” That’s what training camp is for. AI or no AI. I also think some of MC’s bravado in training camp was due to his inexperience. Hey, it happens.

I remember Sparky in 79 with the Tigers, “my way or the highway.” At this point I don’t think for a minute that Sheed or AI is going to make a ton of money anywhere else next year unless they re-sign becasue they worked in the system and brought home a chip. These guys are past the point of being the missing piece for a team. And I read where both MC and Joe D. said having guys in the last year of their contract playing “harder and for something more” (for a lack of a better phrase). I think we are rapidly approaching the point where “something more” could become “Ah f@#k it.” And at that point, all bets are off.

Just to add a little historical context to this whole discussion, check out the minutes and +/- from the Denver Nuggets last year.

Anthony Carter played about half the minutes at PG with Iverson as SG. For the other half of the minutes with Carter sitting, Iverson played PG with J.R. Smith or Linas Kleiza at the SG

Carter had the worst +/- of any rotation player on the team. The reason is not so much that Carter sucked, but because his minutes came with Iverson as SG, and Iverson is not nearly as useful without the ball in his hands. Similarly, Smith and Kleiza had very good +/- not because they’re amazing, but because their minutes came with Iverson at PG.

If you drill down further into the top 5 man units of the team, you’ll notice that all the lineups that outscored the competition by a meaningful margin involved Iverson at PG, despite the fact that he was playing half the time at SG.

Iverson as PG creates a lot of chaos on the offensive end, which can make coaches uncomfortable. But it’s chaos that creates a more efficient offense.

Rip is the odd man out because his scoring depends on having a non-chaotic offense. But Afflalo, Tay, Sheed, and Dice should all thrive with what Iverson can create with the offense running through his dribble.

Mike P: Parker is a true point guard who can score. Have to disagree with ya on that one.

if we give up on this season before the trade deadline… I suggest this:

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/features/traderesult?players=294~1982&teams=12~8&te=&cash=

Cool- there are a ton of great posts!

@Mike Payne: That is a really good point re:“true point guards.” The counter argument though is that we traded the one “true PG” to have recently led a team to a ‘ship, but haven’t changed the other personnel to fit better with a more “combo/scoring” type lead guard. So yeah, there’s nothing wrong with your lead guard being more of a scorer, but it does impact the rest of the team, and right now (I would argue) the talent matches better with a more “pure” PG type.

@ Mike: “The Celtics, the Spurs, the Heat and the Lakers all won championships without true point guards.”

Rondo is a pure point guard, if you ask me. Although young, his strengths are on-ball defense and distributing the basketball. I might be biased by this year’s play, but I thought he fit the PG mold quite well last year too. I also think Tony Parker is a pure point guard first, scorer second.

@ Petey: “Rip is the odd man out…”
I think you’re right, and I think that’s what is rubbing me wrong. My reasoning is that he has proven is a championship-caliber player by actually winning championships! He had a marvelous college career, and we all know his career in Detroit. AI, on the other hand, is a better player if we are talking numbers and pure talent; however, his teams have never risen to the top to win a championship. So the question for me is, why should Rip be the odd man out?? What do we gain that way?

Mark:

“Players adapt and play in a system. I think our problem has been everytime we make a substitution or depending on who we start, or try to decide who we are going to start, we have to adjust our "system." That’s what training camp is for. AI or no AI. I also think some of MC’s bravado in training camp was due to his inexperience. Hey, it happens.”

I agree with you completely. After watching the first four games of the season, it looked like we finally had a system the players were buying into. The young guys looked very promising in their increased roles, and the core starters were playing inspired basketball. It looked like a rejuvenated Pistons team who had rediscovered what made them great in the first place.

Then, we made a trade that comprised the integrity of the system. In other words, after training camp (a vital part of the season) it seemed as if the team had bought into the system; and conversely, the system seemed to fit the strengths of the roster. However, now the roster and system don’t mesh well.

It has been my hope that AI could adapt to fit the system, but that doesn’t seem to be working. I am also biased because I love the way the Pistons have played in the past; that is, I love the system. And I think MC will thrive when he can coach a roster that fits his system. But now, that’s gone.

So, the question for MC and the staff is obvious: if the system doesn’t fit the roster, what changes?

Or perhaps all of us are missing the point entirely. Trading for AI is not about the present. It’s about the future. Let us suppose the following (all of which I think JD has made plain): He likes the young core of Detroit, Tay, Stuck, Amir, Max, Afflalo, Bynum. He knows that those players all have their best basketball ahead of them. He knows that the next few years pose great possibilities in both the Draft and Free Agent Market. He wants to make significant moves in both of those markets.

With all those assumptions that I think are accurate, I think it is entirely possible that trading for AI was ultimately about the future — signing or drafting a superstar that will change the face of the franchise. And, if AI does eventually mesh, then there’s an outside shot that Detroit could make one more run at the Finals with this group of Pistons. If not, goodbye AI, Sheed, and ’Dyess and hello to one or two years of positioning and rebuilding.

That’s obviously bittersweet, because it brings a very abrupt end to a great Pistons era and poses a lot of future frustration as the young kids develop. But on the other hand, it has the potential to make the Pistons one of the most attractive places to be for any of the big names who will soon be free agents. Who wouldn’t want to play with that young core of Pistons? All unselfish, hard-working role players. It’s the ideal place for a superstar to be.

I hate to say it because I have loved every minute of the past 6 Piston season, but I suspect that this era is coming to a close, and Joe D is a few steps ahead of us.

Having said all that, it doesn’t excuse MC from doing a crappy job! :P

“Simply put, since this is Sheed’s, AI’s, and most likely Dyess’ last year we can’t afford to fumble through lineup changes, bad defense, and intangible offenses.”

I agree with this 100%.

Even if you’re salivating about cap space two years out, to be realistic, when Rasheed hits his expiration date, your best hopes at another title expire as well.

The future is now.

There is a genuine shot at a winning a title this year if Curry can cobble together a working rotation, and at the risk of repeating a point one time too many, it involves playing Iverson at PG together with Afflalo at SG, no matter who starts and who doesn’t.

@Mark Butter, BG:
Short and sweet:
“http://images.ballhype.com/uploads/photos_large/2008/05/26/comboguards.jpg”

Long and detailed:
http://ballhype.com/story/ballad_for_the_combo_guard/

Tony Parker is not a true point guard, he’s closer to a 2 guard than a pure PG.

@BG:
From what he’s shown lately, I do have to agree with you about Rondo.

“I like Stuckey. He has ice water in his veins and some nice skills. But he’s not a pure point guard. I know he’s in the learning/developing stage, but he’s a think-shoot-first kind of player.”

A lot of people have said variations of this. But, they forget that Chauncey wasn’t a pure point guard when he came into the league. It’s possible to learn how to become a playmaker.

“So the question for me is, why should Rip be the odd man out??”

- Because Dumars decided to trade Chauncey.

- Because it’s the only way to challenge for a title with the current roster.

“What do we gain that way?”

A genuine shot at winning another title.

And it’s not like I’m advocating that Rip disappear. Iverson needs to have his minutes limited. Last year, he played 42mpg, but rested a lot when he was playing off the ball.

This year, I’d like to see Iverson play PG for 32 – 36mpg minutes, sit on the bench when he’s not running the point, and have Rip come in with the green light against the other team’s second unit with Stuckey feeding him the ball as he runs off screens.

BG: Agree with you about Joe D and future. My only fear is that a top FA looks at that piston roster, and let’s say this year we come up woefully short in the playoffs, said FA doesn’t want to “grow” a year or two with that crop of youngs and goes elsewhere. Plus, if you’ve got Stuck at the point, Amir/Max at PF and Tay at the SF, you are talking about targeting only a super FA that’s either a SG or center. And given Rips new 3 year deal, you’re talking a center if Rip doesn’t want to go with 2nd unit even now.

For example:

Wade: he’s got Chalmers doing a good job, Beasley and perhaps a decent pick coming.
Kobe: opts out and he’s got Bynum, Gasol & Farmer.
LeBron: he can make any team good
Bosh: With Amir/Max, Bosh doesn’t want to play center.
Dirk: Whose gonna play center
Boozer: A slow down game player hurting our transition potential.

I do like the thought of Dirk. The Mavs aren’t going anywhere fast, Cuban’s not a “gee, hope this works out” kinda guy. How about AI for Kidd? We can run, money comes off a year later for 2010 (I think) and we can also play half court.

I absolutely agree with your post, but they’d still leave only two spots to bring in a ubber-FA to fill one of those. I just don’t know who’s out there. A rookie, it’ll take 2-3 years.

Mike P. have to say he’s closer to a pure point than a pure 2. 6 of one, half dozen of the other. I think we’re both right.

I hate to say it, but I wouldn’t be surprised if Rip is secretly on the trading block

“A lot of people have said variations of this. But, they forget that Chauncey wasn’t a pure point guard when he came into the league. It’s possible to learn how to become a playmaker.”

What made Chauncey elite as a PG was not just his playmaking ability, but that he was also an efficient scorer when he chose his own number.

Even in his first couple of years in the league when he was having a rough time, Chauncey still had a good TS%.

Stuckey hasn’t shown he can be an efficient scorer yet.

The problem with Rip being the odd man out is that over the long haul, line-ups with just AI+Stuck are gonna get zoned to death unless there’s a third guard on the court… or at best it’ll equal a lot of Sheed 3’s. AI+Stuck creates the problem where our teams frontcourt basically has to consist of jump shooters, to give the guards room to drive. Spellcheck has shot well so far and he’s shown himself to be able to drive to the hoop, but Rip is no doubt a better shooter. Ultimately, I’d rather the shooter’s giving AI or Stuck space to operate be at the SG or SF position, not from my PF or C. So I guess what I’m saying is; if AI and Rip can’t function together and Stuck and Rip can, then I think that means AI should be the odd man out, not Rip.

Good post Matt W and a lot of good opinions and data presented by everyone else.

I think efficient is the key word there. Stuck has worlds of potential, and he demonstrates that potential in spurts. However, consistency and efficiency are what is lacking, and how long it will take to develop those is an unknown. If it develops this year, then the Pistons might peak at the right time. If not, we’re in for frustration.

“The problem with Rip being the odd man out is that over the long haul, line-ups with just AI+Stuck are gonna get zoned to death unless there’s a third guard on the court”

Agree entirely, which is why I keep trying to say that AI/Afflalo is the backcourt for winning.

“Spellcheck has shot well so far and he’s shown himself to be able to drive to the hoop, but Rip is no doubt a better shooter.”

If someone can explain to Rip that he needs to abandon his mid-range game when Iverson is on the court and camp out behind the 3pt line, and if Rip will accept that role and shoot well from beyond the arc, then I think an AI/Rip backcourt would work fine.

But frankly, I think it’d be easier to have Rip continue doing his mid-range thing with Stuckey wile AI sits on the bench.

Rip may be a better shooter, (though Afflalo is doing better than Rip from beyond the arc this year), but Afflalo provides the spacing necessary for Iverson to work while Rip destroys that spacing.

“So I guess what I’m saying is; if AI and Rip can’t function together and Stuck and Rip can, then I think that means AI should be the odd man out, not Rip.”

It all depends on what your goal is.

If you want to challenge for a title, you need to do it this year. And if you’re going to do it this year, you need to get Iverson comfortable running the point on this team within the next month or two.

Just wanted to chime in that you guys are making some pretty awesome observations and suggestions. You guys are smrt.

Doesn’t it seem like a lot of teams hang on to their core players past the fabled “window of opportunity?” That messes teams up. The Pistons couldn’t win a championship with Flip, so he was fired. The Pistons couldn’t win a championship with the roster as the season began, so the roster was changed. As many predicted, losing Chauncey hurt Rip. AI’s game doesn’t seem compatible with Hamilton’s. But, and here’s the point, if the Pistons weren’t going to win this season, then they should work towards positioning for the next season or the season after that. Personally, I think Joe traded the wrong guard, but I like that there is an honest attempt to win championships. This season is sunk. I’m thinking of it as a rebuilding year, and that helps me get past the pain.

@Petey: I totally agree with everything you wrote. Just wanted to say that. Especially re:Rips mid-range game. Rip has been an amazing corner 3 shooter the last few years. How hard would it be for him to just plant himself in the corner like he’s Bruce Bowen, when he’s on the court with AI? Seems like that would be money in the bank.

Birdman,

Although I feel your pain, and I think it’s more likely than not you will be proved to be correct, I do think it’s a bit premature. We’re only 20 games into a new season with a new coach and new roster.

There is still an outside chance that the Pistons will peak at the right time. It’s a small chance that’s getting smaller the longer MC keeps approaching games the way he is now — but it’s not gone yet.

Let’s wait until the All Star break before we make those kind of judgments. If it is going to work, it’s going to take time.

Matt W…can you go on a cover operation at the Pistons facility and drop off a copy of the transcript from your post and the comments section and we can hope Curry reads it?

Oooh, I know who I want instead of Curry – Ozzie. Now there’s someone who can out-alpha dog Sheed! He’ll outcuss the living #&$*-#&&)%ing loving%#*%&$ #*((*er out of Sheed.

@Petey – I couldn’t disagree more on every point you made. I’m flabbergasted. AI is not a PG… if he was ALL our problems would be solved, well, except his TERRIBLE defense which you failed to address.

OK, so a decent number of teams have won ’ships without classic point guards, and Stuckey is, as I said, still developing and may become more of one. Those teams that won without true point guards had at least a couple of superstars, which makes them different from Detroit, but those are fair points.

I still say the Pistons at least arguably have a troublingly mis-matched roster, with lots good players who don’t seem to fit well together.

I think it would be interesting to see how many of those teams who won championships without the “pure” point guard also had – what I will call for the sake of discussion – a “facilitator” at a different position on the floor.

For example, take a player like Scottie Pippen. By himself, he was a terrific scorer. But, because he had a superstar like Jordan by his side, he become not only a secondary scorer but a “point forward” who facilitated the offense that otherwise liked a “pure” PG.

Am I making sense?

Tayshaun has some of those qualities, I think, which may have gone overlooked with Billups at the helm. Does using him as a facilitator make sense for our Pistons?

“@Petey – I couldn’t disagree more on every point you made. I’m flabbergasted. AI is not a PG… if he was ALL our problems would be solved”

Well, AI has not been a point guard on the Pistons, since Curry has so far been determined to keep him off the ball.

Last year, he played about half his minutes at the point, and the Nuggets were significantly better than the minutes he played at off-guard.

Traditionally, while Iverson has been billed as a off-guard, he has always played heavy minutes as a point guard.

I’m advocating playing Iverson all of his minutes at the point, and sitting him on the bench for the time he normally played at the off-guard, bringing in Stuckey/Rip in his absence.

“well, except his TERRIBLE defense which you failed to address.”

Defensively, Iverson is problematic. He’s a lot like Chris Paul on that end. Because of his body size, he can’t defend the ball very well since he can’t fight through screens. But he makes up for it by his above average ability to disrupt passing lanes and draw offensive fouls. Last year, for example, Iverson led the league in offensive fouls drawn by a guard.

Defense is another reason I think an Iverson/Afflalo backcourt is the answer to all questions. Afflalo has been an fucking exceptional perimeter defender this year, which is one of the reasons his +/- is so off the charts.

And like Chris Paul and Steve Nash, Iverson needs help on the defensive end in order to be effective. Being paired with a lock-down defender with size like Afflalo is what Iverson needs on the defensive end.

From the Freep: “Curry said he’s keeping the smaller starting lineup indefinitely and will use Brown, Johnson and Maxiell as situational reserves.”

This is what’s killing me. Max as a “situational reserve”? You have got to be kidding me. A starter he is not (perhaps), but he is a KEY reserve. He is a game-changer when he comes in. Where does MC get off demoting him?

Thanks for doing the mega-post weigh-in Matt W., and thank you all for the therapeutic rants and logic.

@Rob G: WOW, thank you for pointing me toward that quote. If anyone needed any more convincing of Curry being a total idiot then I think we now have the necessary evidence to change their mind.

Rob G: “This is what’s killing me. Max as a "situational reserve"? You have got to be kidding me. A starter he is not (perhaps), but he is a KEY reserve. He is a game-changer when he comes in. Where does MC get off demoting him?”

There must be something going on that the fans don’t see. It’s the only thing I can think of to explain how both Flip and MC choose to use Max as a situational player.

When he plays, he always makes his mark. That’s what we see as fans. Perhaps something is going on behind closed doors…

That said, Max seems to be a class act. He never complains about limited minutes and plays hard every time he’s on the court. I doubt there’s an internal problem… but it’s about the only thing that adds up.

I really don’t think AI’s defensive problems are a big deal if we’ve got enforcers in the lane, shot blockers that make the Rondos of the world regret that they even made it to the rim. Tayshaun and Sheed are not enforcers. Max and Amir (even Kwame, even if he’s not much of a shot blocker) are, even if they’re not to the Big Ben level at this point.

“For example, take a player like Scottie Pippen. By himself, he was a terrific scorer. But, because he had a superstar like Jordan by his side, he become not only a secondary scorer but a "point forward" who facilitated the offense that otherwise liked a "pure" PG. Am I making sense?”

Yes. Scottie indeed ran the point for a heavy percentage of minutes on the second Bulls three-peat.

But while Tay makes smart decisions while running the point – and Curry has had him running the point a LOT since the trade – it’s not a championship formula unless you can stick a reincarnated Michael Jordan in the off-guard spot…

Re: pure PG vs. combo G:

What else is interesting is if you go back even further in the history of NBA champions. I could be overlooking someone, but if you take a look at the list of champions— the last pure PG’s prior to Chauncey that won a championship were Avery Johnson and Isiah Thomas. One, a past Piston, the other, a future Pistons coach!

Perhaps I distorted the discussion by using Pippen as an example, but your point is taken, nonetheless.

I realize Tay has been playing point forward since the trade, and it’s been only somewhat successful.

What I was trying to drive at more specifically was how other positions on the floor can serve as offensive facilitators; in other words, the qualities usually associated with pure PGs aren’t actually exclusive to that position.

For example, if you take the reigning NBA champions, much of their offense is facilitated by KG in that the ball goes through him a lot of the time.

I don’t know if that model makes sense with the Pistons roster or not. I was just throwing it out as an idea.

Wow. Thanks for that quote, Rob G. It just made me punch a baby. Curry is KILLING me.

“I hate to say it, but I wouldn’t be surprised if Rip is secretly on the trading block.”

More likely, AI is just a one year Piston.

Although, the small ball lineup makes me nervous. There is something to be said for having your five best players on the floor to start the game. (This doesn’t excuse giving Maxiel a DNP).

Petey, good discussion on here. That being said, I disagree with your premise that AI is at his best when he’s running the point. He got to the championship with Eric Snow running the point. Granted, AI had the ball more than anyone. I think it’s more about WHERE he gets the ball to start.

So I guess I both agree and disagree with you. AI needs the ball in his hands, but I’d rather not have him create from a stand still. I want him to get the ball on the move with his defender chasing.

The more I think about it, the more I think we confuse the discussion by talking about who is at what position.

Typically, a player’s position is indicative of his role on the court. But with AI and Stuck both being “combo guards,” we might do better simply to talk about who should have what roles while on the court.

I think Petey is pushing in that direction by maintaining AI should be paired with Aflalo in order to run the offense through AI and spread the floor with shooters.

It helps me frame the discussion better, anyway.

Yikes, fellas. We lost three flippin’ games and it’s “Alllll Aboard” on the “The-trade-sucked-Curry-sucks-currently” train. That didn’t take long at all.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m in full agreement that we haven’t played well and I agree with some of the points in Matt’s post, especially that we shouldn’t dilly-dally on turning this ship around.

However, the amount of talent on this team is undeniable. The amount of time the “core” spent together is undeniable. The path to the top is not going to be easy this year. It’s undeniable.

While I may not agree with some of his decisions, I’m okay(for now) with Curry’s experimentation. It’s something that Brown/Saunders didn’t do. The whole slow transition problem may be rooted in the fact neither coach really dared to shake things up and players evolved into a routine. That’s right… a five year routine that must be overhauled in a matter of 16 games by a rookie head coach?

This is going to take some experimentation. This is going to take an evolving of new roles. This is going to take some players’/coaches’/fans’ questioning. This may even take losing a few tough games (see: this week).

But, utimately, it’s going to take some time. Longer than 16 games anyway. We may have to, as fans, also evolve our routines, like not panicking after losing three games.

I’m playing a bit of devil’s advocate here. I agree and appreciate many of the posts above, and my finger has inched towards the panick button a bit, but I’m also very optimistic we can turn this ship around.

From the Freep: "Curry said he’s keeping the smaller starting lineup indefinitely and will use Brown, Johnson and Maxiell as situational reserves."

OK, I am now completely on the “Fire Curry” bandwagon. It’s one thing to make a mistake; it’s another thing to make an obviously stupid mistake; but it’s in a whole other category to make an obviously stupid mistake AND NOT REALIZE IT OR MOVE TO CORRECT IT.

In defense of MC:

some of our best moments since the AI trade have come when our lineup is small.

The first quarter of the Washington game was absolutely brilliant.

Because of that, I’m not opposed to abandoning small ball altogether.

However, I am animately against limiting Max’s role in particular to situational. He is a vital part of the team, and we won’t be as good with him on the bench. Plain and simple.

Somebody might have already posted this but here goes (from freep via slam):

“I can’t control Tay and Rip — they got something to say to the refs, they can say it,” Stuckey said. “But M.C.‘s right, though. We can’t be doing that. Being the leader on this team, I got to step up and get those guys together and let them know that’s something we can’t do at this point.”

article: http://www.freep.com/article/20081211/SPORTS03/812110396/1051/rss16

I’m not sure what to think of Stuckey calling himself “the leader”

“Typically, a player’s position is indicative of his role on the court.”

So does this suggest starting 3 shooting guards and no point guard or center is a bad idea?

@BG- I agree with what you’re saying re:teams having their offense facilitated through positions other than the PG. I think, and pretty sure most people agree, that’s why we’re struggling- because our roster is constructed to function best with a more “pure” PG.

Rip, whose role had been to be the primary scorer is now on a lot of nights a 2nd or 3rd option (if we’re going through one of those quarters where Curry orders the ball to be force-fed to Sheed). Tay’s job was to defend the other team’s best perimeter player on most nights and fill in where necessary on offense, now he’s sometimes a de-facto PG, and has to guard PF’s. Now I’m just repeating what we’ve all said already…

Anyway, point is a chunk of our roster (and some of our most important players) doesn’t/don’t fit great next to a shoot-first guard. A lot of past champs had far more “dynamic” scoring options at the 2,3,4,or 5 positions- so they didn’t need a “pure” point to help create their offense, problem is, I think this team (with roster as is) does need one.

You know its one thing to critisize a coach or players for struggling. I understand everyone goes through that and somethings dont fit (Iverson?).

But I think Curry should be put under the bus for his stubborness at using a style that is clearly failing against the most inept of the teams and not even playing his bigs!

I’m sorry but the fact that on top everything that happened in the Wizards game, Jason Maxiell, Kwame Brown and Amir Johnson all had DNP-CD’s is the biggest offense.

Your dumb ass is on the sideline watching this team crumble and get bodied as there lead disintegrates and you never once think about putting your 3 forwards who have been productive? (Even Kwame!).

All season long I’ve hated that Jason Maxiell’s playing time has decresed. He matters to this team in a big way. He was one of the reasons that it was ok letting go Ben because Joe D believed in his upside and he’s been rewarding that belief the past two seasons. Why on earth dont you put him in to help out? I understand he’s undersized but that didnt stop him in previous seasons.

You put these guys in effective streches, it eliveates the pressure from Iverson and lets him do is thing, as well as Stuckey and Rip (who looks like hes finding a way to play without Chauncey). You know Sheed aint gonna do the right thing, so why not?

Honestly Ive never been more offended of anyone in the Pistons 5

• Continued

…..in the 51 year history.

Im so mad I hit the submit button by accident. Damn you curry

@ BG: a three-guard offense can be effective at times, but in limited doses. Look what happened in the Wizards game. Washington, a bad team with their best players injured, eventually figured out that Rip Hamilton, a 2, was guarding Caron Butler, a significantly taller/bigger 3. Rip did his best, but Butler shot over him for much of the last three quarters and scored a ton of points, when he wasn’t dishing to an open man when somebody came to try to help Rip. That sort of thing is going to happen again and again against various teams, either bigger SFs with Rip on them, or bulky PFs with Tayshaun on them.

The most troubling thing to me about the Wizards game, though, was that Curry watched that matchup over and over again and DID NOTHING ABOUT IT. And now he’s saying he’s going to keep with this in future games. Look, I don’t want to think Curry to be a bad coach, but he’s making it hard for me not to.

I’ve been reading Pistons all day today and was gonna write a big long message, but I decided it prolly won’t get read so here is bulleted list with no backup to what i’m saying!

Amir/Max/Kwame: wont ever will be quality starters so why do they “need” minutes

Big PFs will have trouble running around with Prince and going beyond the arc.

I believe in the Stuckey future.

KL: “there won’t be a true "second unit" anymore, but more of a staggering of the starters’ substitutions.” (with stuckey in the starting lineup).

We only need to play 8/9 players per game; Spread out the DNPs.

AI IS Allen Iverson Expiring Contract.

ECF are fine with me this year to keep the streak alive, and the Dumars dynasty going, by bridging this group with the post cap space group.

It’s Lebron’s year anyway…

What happened to our love of being the underdog?

Even though it’s rough right now, we all love the pistons so much that no matter how much we say we’re never watching another game, We are gonna continue watching. So might as well be positive.

Porter isn’t doing so hot right now in Phoenix, so maybe Flip was so bad that he steered Curry and Porter both into the opposite directions.

That said I still respect Curry as a person, so I’ll continue to have faith in him.

I still think Sheed is irreplaceable.

Oh yeah and:
We have Allen Iverson on our team!
Remember when he first got here and we had butterflies in our stomachs? First time AI drops 30 we’re all going to go nuts. If he drops 40 no one will even remember what’s going on now. Even if you don’t think the season will turn around into a championship, NOBODY can say that AI can’t drop 40.

Did you know that if you eat poprocks then drink coke, your stomach explodes? Or that if you make a ugly face long enough, your face sticks that way? Or that if you try to understand MC’s logic, your head explodes?

Seriously. We don’t want Sheed and Dyess together because they’re both shooting bigs and their offense emulates each other too much. But we do want Stuck and AI together, even though they’re both slashing combo guards and their offense emulates each other.

/brain explodes

Heres my two cents: I want so bad to believe that Curry has a master plan, but right now he just looks like an idiot. We’ll see. Also, Brad – start Bynum? I think you might sour on that pretty quickly if it actually happened. File under careful what you wish for. I think you are right, though, that Rip shouldn’t come off the bench. If you start Stuckey and Ai, then when you bring Rip in you also have to bring Bynum in or it defeats the purpose of not starting Ai and Rip together. Also, Bynum would then start to take Afflalo’s minutes, which I think would be a mistake. The more and more I think about it, it really seems like a no-brainer; benching AI is THE most obvious and probably the best solution.

Also, we have a few very good players, several good players, and a few promising/intriguing players. No one on our team just sucks. It makes it kind of hard to settle on a consistent line up. I like that Cury keeps an open mind about minutes, but I would prefer if he had a default line up so that we could get some stability. Easier said than done, I guess.

I am mostly agreement with Watson. I want to add one other thing that has bothered me the last three games; especially the philly game. When it gets done to the wire and we need a basket why is it that AI doesn’t even appear to be an option? I know he is a one year rental but he is one of the greatest scorers in NBA history. Give him the ball and let him create. He’s on the team, might as well utilize him.

I like Stuckey and I think he is going to be a good pg that manages games as well as Chauncey did. But right now we have AI and I would rather see the ball in his hands. He is a finisher that can dish if necessary or at least get to the line. With all the shooters the pistons have it should be easy to space the floor and make it easy for him to operate.

I just don’t understand how AI is not more involved in these close game situations. In past years the rock would be in Chaunceys hands to make the decisions in these close game situations. There is no reason AI shouldn’t get the same responsibility.

MC would you care to comment on this?

Starting lineup:

Stuckey, Rip, Tayshaun, Rasheed, and Kwame.

Second Unit:

AI, Afflalo, Maxiell, McDyess, and Amir.

Slot in Herrmann and Bynum as needed.

It’s a PERFECT fucking setup! The three guard smallball thing is garbage. Curry needs to man up, move AI to the bench, and stick to it. AI can slash all he wants with Spellcheck, Maxiell and Dice in there to compensate defensively. Plus, Dice and Afflalo give him great kick out options once he’s in there. We’ve seen how well he works with Herrmann, so rotating him in there would help too. Why is this so hard to figure out? Do what’s best for the team, no AI’s goddamn ego. He says he’ll do whatever it takes, (besides practice, clearly) so let’s execute on that.

Fuck!

Brad: What is your point about Iverson and his assists. Iversons career assists average is higher than Chaunceys so does that mean Chauncey isnt a PG either? Also, you cannot compare every point to Isiah Thomas obviously they wont stack up to him.

I originally had Stuckey starting with Rip but then realized you’d have Bynum and AI coming in off the bench… which would be a nightmare defensively. See these are the issues that you have when you have a 6’, 165 lb SG… you HAVE to have another guard that can defend the 2 spot when he’s out there.

@Cody – your point is well taken. I would like to point out, though, that AI has averaged 40 mpg while Billups has only averaged 32. Still, you have a point.

I don’t know what Curry is doing at this point. . . and I don’t think he does either. The only way this makes sense is if there’s a deal somewhere where and the Pistons don’t want palyer X to be a significant part of the rotation or they’re afraid that player X gets hurt and throws the deal off.

Max only a situational player? WTF? I’m sure that wasn’t said to him halloween evening when he signed that new 5 year deal.

Brad: good point — it’s misleading whenever anyone mentions AI’s assists. AI has averaged 5.4 assists per 36 minutes for his career; Chauncey has averaged 6.2 per 36 (and hasn’t averaged worse than 7 per 36 since 2004-05)

@Brad:
“Bynum and AI coming in off the bench… which would be a nightmare defensively.”

I am probably misunderstanding you, but Bynum is one of our best defenders. I don’t have a lot to quantify that, but that kid is a monster, an absolute PEST on the defensive end. On both sides of the floor, watching that kid play is nothing short of exciting.

Restructer_It: AI has already dropped 30 with us. He did it against Sacto in his 3rd game with us. So the time to go nuts for AI’s first 30 point performance has long passed.

Iverson has also played on much faster teams than Chauncey. Given all the possessions where Iverson handles the ball, the fast pace of his teams, and his high minutes per game, his raw assist numbers are not that noteworthy.

Relegating Maxiell and Amir, our two best bench reserves, into situational roles is pretty idiotic.

“I originally had Stuckey starting with Rip but then realized you’d have Bynum and AI coming in off the bench…”

What MP said and also, what about AA, or do you see him coming in at the three? But then when does Fabs get minutes…..Aaarghhhh…too many players not enough positions.

@Colin:
“too many players not enough positions.”

This gives me a thought— why don’t we just start 6 players? Our lineup will be like this:

PG: Stuckey
SSG: Iverson
SG: Hamilton
SF: Prince
PF: Amir
C: Wallace

We’d kill any five player team in the league!!!!

Ahhhh, Levity….How much longer can it last. I don’t want this to be the winter of our discontent. I want it to be a baby eatin, count that baby and afflalo, sheedtastic extravaganza. Yesssirr!

Toledo Joe:

I think we are mostly in agreement. I like the small ball in doses in places where it creates match up problems. I don’t like it as a solution to the starting line-up issues.

If I didn’t express that clearly, then that is certainly what I meant. Small ball at times where we need quickness to break down defenses off the dribble.

BG:

Yeah, sounds like we agree.

@ Colin – That’s a GREAT idea!! it’s like turning your amp up to 11.

@ Mike Payne – Bynum is a good defender, but if both AI and WB are on the floor then one of them would have to defend a SG… who generally run 6’5"-6’7", an overt matchup problem for us.

@Brad:
This will happen any time AI is at the 2, whether he’s paired with Bynum or not.

@ Mike Payne – not if you have Stuckey with him. Stuckey defends the 2, AI defends the 1

Daniel,

“Starting lineup:
Stuckey, Rip, Tayshaun, Rasheed, and Kwame.
Second Unit:
AI, Afflalo, Maxiell, McDyess, and Amir.
Slot in Herrmann and Bynum as needed.”

I agree with you completely. It’s not that difficult to figure out. Kwame is serviceable and has played pretty good defense, so start him. Stuckey is better at running the team then AI and AI has looked great at times while playing with the bench. When AI missed practice and was not allowed to start, I thought that he looked really comfortable in that game. He came off the bench and attacked without having to worry about “running” the offense.
Small ball won’t work every night and we need a stable lineup and bench. I believe that players, especially bench players, play better when they know their role and when they are expected to enter the game. Our bench is talented and will improve if they have consistent minutes and well defined roles.
Our defense has been weak for the most part, but their was a period during the first half of the Philly game when Stuckey, Maxiell, Afflalo and Amir pressured the ball and forced turnovers. It reminded me of the Pitbulls (Lindsey and Mike James). Why isn’t Lindsey with the organization anyway? My point is we are perfectly capable of playing tough defense if these guys get to play. If we don’t use the lineups mentioned above, we are going to continue to struggle.

FWIW, I just re-watched the 4th quarter of the Pistons-’zards game, (gotta make room on the TiVo for Portland/Utah,)and the +/- is no lie.

We lost that game because Dice was awful on both ends of the court.

Given that, I can live with the Washington loss much better. Dice has to be re-worked into the flow, even if it costs us a game or two.

Lamar Odom is anchoring the Lakers’ second unit.

Manu Ginobili is anchoring the Spurs’ second unit.

Who is anchoring our second unit? We’ve got a bonanza of good players…

If Weetroit Basketball is Curry’s plan indefinitely than we better be seeing Arron Afflalo as 6th man with heavy minutes seeing as MC is starting 2 shooting guards. If we don’t see Spellcheck playing heavy minutes then it’s pretty clear that MC’s commitment to smallball is less about basketball and more about personalities.

Petey: We gave a thirty-four year old guy 25 minutes despite the fact he hadn’t been with the team for a month. That’s just silly. You don’t have to have any ill-will towards McDyess (and what Pistons fan does?) to ask the coach to cap the guy’s minutes to like 10-15 in the beginning. That decision by Curry still has me flat-out perplexed.

Interesting story:

- Dice says AI needs the ball.
- Curry throws Kwame under the bus.

I think both men are correct on the specifics, however, I will note that Kwame did an AMAZING job on Tim Duncan, and was a big reason why we won the San Antonio game.

Take THAT, Kwame Brown!

Gee Curry, you really told Kwame. AI was doing such a great job while Kwame sucked defensively. Ok. Maybe that’s true. So if Kwame got busted for 16 points by a guy he wasn’t even guarding, why the hell did Curry leave him in so long?!?

@Brad:
“Stuckey defends the 2, AI defends the 1”

Ahh, I gotcha.

David Lee only scored 2 with Kwame on the floor. If MC wants to dog Kwame, he’s got a lot better games to choose from than the Knicks one.

No one might agree with me, but I think K. Brown has been at least the third best defender on the team, definitely behind AA and Tay but still doing exceptionally well. MC is wrong again! Or, what am I missing?

I have been satisfied with Kwame’s play. I just want him to get a few boards, dunk the ball (after he’s left wide open because the other team goes after AI) and set some mean screens for our guards. He’s MASSIVE so he should at least be able to do 2 of those 3 things without trying much.

Rob G,

You’re right. I don’t think Kwame is the third best defender, but he has been decent. He played really well against Duncan and had a solid game against L.A. He can’t catch a pass to save his life, but that’s a different subject. I am sure he missed some assignments against the Knicks, but everyone except Afflalo and Hermann played poorly in that game. I am just as confused as you are.

i read about half way down this scroll. petey for coach. dumars and curry are smoking too much pot.

I’m not sure that Curry was trying to say that Kwame gave up 16 points. He said, “But the reality is, 16 of those 29 points came because our five-man (center) missed his assignment.” Kwame started and was the five man initially, so he probably did account for some of those. I only caught snippets of the game, but I would guess that somebody else played at the five for portions of the first half. I read it as the center position played bad. That includes Kwame, but it might also include others. If you look at it like that, it’s a pretty innocuous statement.

Sheed is a terrible weakside defender these days, its like he used to just pick and choose to help but now he mostly just always let the guy get a free layup.

The lack of a true Center hurts. Sheed’s always struck me as a PF, he spaces so well as a shooter. As much as my family bitchs about him not being in the post enough, for him to really have fun out there (and put him in the mindset where he is best) he cant be burdened with the responsibility of primary rebounder and shot swatter. He was at his best when B.Wallace was willing to do those things. McDyess isnt really a center, and I’ve always liked him more with the second unit. Amir wont develope into a center, and maxiell is too short. As for Kwame… no. Just no. I know theres a huge problem at the 2 spot becuase of Rip and AI, but would anyone consider trading one of them to bring back a center that could help?

**example: Rip to Clippers for Marcus Camby. Camby has what, 2 years at 10 mil on his contract left? He’s still a great center, that features a lineup of
C: Camby
PF: Sheed
SF: Tay
SG: AI
PG: Stucky

Leaves a second unit headed by McDyess, Afflalo, Maxxy, Amir and Herrman. Which is a great second unit. I’d rather move AI than Rip, but with AI’s contract… I just dont know. Should we just let this year slip by and hope that his expiring contract brings us back good players? Or do we shake things up now? Maybe I’m being to impatient here… but I really would like to see some interior D that doesnt fall on Sheed or McDyess. Camby was the example becuase the clippers are overstocked down low, Randolph Kaman and Camby wont coexist. I’d love feedback.

This is exactly what I’ve been saying. It seems like nobody sees my posts. Just because point guards score a lot against Detroit, doesn’t mean it’s AI’s fault.

A lot of the time when guards “attack” AI or “take advantage” of him, they’re just using picks. Like I’ve said plenty of times before, Detroit needs to better their pick and roll defense. I said that Duhon was using a lot of picks, and Curry just explained it. AI’s a better defender than Steve Nash (not saying much), but AI gets a lot of hate for his defense, even though not many point guards play defense that well. Chauncey Billups has size and is one of the better pg defenders. AI is getting better at it.

I 100% agree with McDyess. I’ve said it before. Starting Stuckey is just asking for a quick fix. Many of you say bench AI. Ya say it like it’s so easy for him to just work with the 2nd unit. Whether he starts or not, he’ll be playing 35-40 minutes. He’s going to play with Rip, Tayshaun, and Rasheed. It’s better that he starts so he can get better with them. He has to control the ball, because he’s an excellent playmaker and scorer. He’ll have to adjust a bit, but the whole team will have to as well. Putting Stuckey at the point is just a quick fix, and the team won’t be as good in the end as if AI plays point.

Playing small ball is just a quick fix because Kwame Brown played great Defense on Andrew Bynum, Pau Gasol, Tim Duncan, and David Lee. He’ll need to get better at pick and roll defense and the whole team will. He’s what they need to beat the elite teams who play big.

Basically, AI should play point (give it time, it’ll work) and Kwame Brown should start at center (give it time, it’ll work).

At what point do we cancel the rest of the season and just let the Celtics and Cavs go at it best of 7 to decide the champion? They are absurdly better than every team in the league, including the Lakers.

Also, keep in mind that LeBron is only averaging 35 mpg, the lowest he’s played in his career by far. Given that his VORP vs. his backup is probably the highest of any player in the league, it’s fair to say Playoff Cavs, which will feature approx. 13 more mpg from LeBron, will just be unreal. Not to mention Playoff Cavs With Good Player Received For Wally Sczczcaczcabavdiak’s Expiring Contract.

Ya say it like it’s so easy for him to just work with the 2nd unit. Whether he starts or not, he’ll be playing 35-40 minutes. He’s going to play with Rip, Tayshaun, and Rasheed. It’s better that he starts so he can get better with them.

Everybody plays with everybody… and Curry expects everybody to figure everything out when nothings constant.

Amir starts… no Kwame starts… here’s a new offense with no PG… AHHAA, see ya CB, we now have the “Answer”… wait lets make Teyshaun the Point… Kwame your benched… not for Amir… Stuckey YOU start… small ball, that’s the ticket!!

Wait, did we just lose to the 76ers, Knicks, then the Bullets? Back to back to back?!? It’s hard for me to say Curry has nothing to do with this.

Althought everybody plays with everybody, AI is gonna be there when it counts near the end and you can expect Rip, Tayshaun,, and Rasheed there. Those 4 will close out games most of the time regardless of who starts. It would be good for AI to work with Rip, since he’s been working well with Tayshaun and Rasheed so far.

You guys have got to be kidding me. Here is a long time Philly fan, watched AI since Georgetown. You are missing something in all these posts. SG, PG, it makes no difference the key to Iverson is the AMOUNT of shots he takes. This is a career almost 30 ppg scorer. That’s not going to happen if he takes 9 shots in a game, we’re used to that being 5 minutes into the first quarter. He gets his own shots, he doesn’t need to have plays run for him, he IS those plays. You say he’s not a winner, so tell me. Who is George Lynch? Who is Tyrone Hill? Don’t know? I do, both of them started on the 01 team that went to the finals against the Lakers. Neither one of them was a player you would call great, and opposing teams wouldn’t even guard E.Snow past about 15 feet, he shot like 5 3’s all season and bricked 4 of em. The only other real shooter on that team was Raja Bell, who came off the becn sometimes, and Aaron Mckie who was the 6th man (read here bench) of the year. So if this guy can take a team to the finals almost by himself offensively, and you all have Rasheed, Rip, Dice, Stuckey all these guys that are 10 times that Philly team and can’t post a winning record, I humbly submit that the problem is not AI, he’s the answer to your problems. Get a real coach, quit coddling these girly men and let the guy win you a title. That or blame someone else. Geez.

Great trade for Phoenix. Not sure who their SF is but a core of Nash, J-Rich, Shaq and Amare is pretty damn good.

Oh yeah… Grant Hill.

“At what point do we cancel the rest of the season and just let the Celtics and Cavs go at it best of 7 to decide the champion? They are absurdly better than every team in the league, including the Lakers.”

Yeah, I completely agree. Celts and Cavs are playing at another level right now with the Lakers a step behind them due to their inconsistent defense.

I disagree that because AI would finish games he needs to start so as to get playing time with the starters who also would be finishing. I think it was Curry and alot of coaches/analysts who said it doesn’t matter who starts but who finishes.

Though if Dyess is right and AI needs the ball, then him starting will impact everyone else getting into the flow at the beginning of games. CB made sure at the beginning of a game to get Rip involved as well as Sheed, etc. AI can jack 20+ shots with the second unit. Amir/Max/AA aren’t going to be option 1 or 2 if he’s playing with the 2nd unit. That’d be AI & Dyess. Can you imagine the other team’s backup PG coming in and having to guard AI? I think it would naturally lead the opp coach to play their starting PG even more.

There’s a link at ESPN rumors section quoting Joe D about the start and his disappointment. He avoids making excuses and says he thinks we should have most of the kinks worked out by now regarding the trade. On the other hand, I beleive Joe D’s use of the word disappointed in the past translates into “pissed off.”

AI should go to coach Curry and ask to play with the second unit. If it works out and we improve greatly and win the chip, he will be rewarded exceptionally by the Pistons next summer (I believe). If not, he’s in the same boat he’s in now: A 33 year old undersized gunning shooting guard with no appreciable defense, but with alot less contract options. How many other teams would line up to try and sign AI if he was willing to join them as 6th man? Hell, just look at Marbury. If he’s got options after being released…

At the end of the day he’s got to decide whether he wants his wallet to get bigger or the bling on his finger. With Amir, Max, AI, Dyess and AA we could be a very decent D and O 2nd team. I mean for God’s sake, he’s made 15+ M for the last several years. Getting a chip (and maybe 1 or 2 more in the next few years) and playing 6th man given his career, he’d probably be a shoe-in first ballot HOF.

Pick up the ##$%@ phone AI.

"At what point do we cancel the rest of the season and just let the Celtics and Cavs go at it best of 7 to decide the champion? They are absurdly better than every team in the league, including the Lakers."

Yeah, I completely agree. Celts and Cavs are playing at another level right now with the Lakers a step behind them due to their inconsistent defense"

Come on people! We’re 20 games into the season! Yes, Boston and Cleveland are the two most dominant teams right now. That’s hard to dispute.

That said, it still comes down to seven-game playoff series which are months away from now.

No Pistons fan should be surprised that losing CB and Dice for AI was going to be disruptive. I don’t think many of us expected it to take this long for the team to come together. But, I think it’s unrealistic that we will be playing our best basketball before the All Star Break.

If the playoffs started tomorrow, Boston and Cleveland would be duking it out without much competition. But, the Playoffs don’t start tomorrow! Obviously, we won’t be competing for one of the top two seeds in the East, but that doesn’t mean we won’t be a scary team come Playoff time.

I’m as frustrated as everyone else, but we have to at least give this team a chance. They’ve been underdogs before, and that’s when we’ve been at our best. Maybe, just maybe, all this adversity will pull the team together at the right moment, and something great could happen.

Let’s at least acknowledge it’s a possibility.

I still think we have a chance to be competitive this season against the Cavs and Celts, but there are some “ifs” required. If Curry gets his head out of his ass. If Sheed either plays hard or is not on the court more than 25 minutes a night. If Amir gets more comfortable (which will come with playing time). If we don’t forget what a great asset we have in Maxiell. If Stuck keeps showing the improvement that he has over the past 7 games – it looks like he’s turned the corner. If our veterans don’t throw in the towel for the season (hopefully Dyess will prevent that). If we sign FPCB a year and a half early.

This is exactly what I’ve been saying. It seems like nobody sees my posts.

You should change your name to Jan Brady. That would be sweet.

BG…I agree with a lot of what you said and I know it’s very early in the season and a lot can change. I’ve said all along that it’s unrealistic to expect us to play our best ball now considering all the changes that have been made. We will play better ball as the year goes on and there is a very small part of me that still thinks we have the potential to compete with Cle/Bos, but a ton of things have to go right for that to happen.

One thing that might help our Pistons out of this rut and doubt is… if they win tonight.

I’m with all the people advocating a starting lineup of Stuck, Rip, Tay, Sheed, Kwame. I don’t think we should be reinventing our team for a player that will likely be gone after this year. I really think Stuckey can run the starting offense. One of the only things I wanted out of Chauncey was more slashing, which we gain with Stuckey (admittedly at the loss of distributing efficiency). I miss the days of the zoo crew when they came in with speed and intensity. AI could run with that team and score at will with options to dish to Afflalo and Dyess. Our team identity wouldn’t have to change much as a whole, and the only individual adjustment that would really be necessary is AI adapting to coming off the bench. With AI and Rip together, one of them has to change substantially for it to work. It’s not looking good for a changed AI. Rip could probably become an outside shooter for dishing, but I’d rather keep his mid-range game. When the trade happened, I truly thought we’d remain as good as we were, but I can’t imagine getting to see that with an inconsistent, confused, in-season overhaul.

@Rob G:
I agree, that might help a whole lot. In spite of Indiana’s record, however, they have pulled down some elite teams. It won’t be an easy win…

Why not start AI/Afflalo/Prince/Amir/Sheed?

Bench: Stuckey/Rip/Herrmann/Maxiell/Dyess

Give Bynum a few minutes and maybe start Brown against the big 5’s.

Dag nabit.

@Greg – totally with ya.

After Reading Dumars, Curry’s, Rip’s, and Dyess’ comments I’m more than a little worried about the disconnect between the fans’ opinion of what needs to happen and the team’s opinion of what needs to happen. I guess we’re stuck in limbo until the team’s direction is proven to be erroneous or viable. I hate being in limbo.

“@Greg – totally with ya.

After Reading Dumars, Curry’s, Rip’s, and Dyess’ comments I’m more than a little worried about the disconnect between the fans’ opinion of what needs to happen and the team’s opinion of what needs to happen. I guess we’re stuck in limbo until the team’s direction is proven to be erroneous or viable. I hate being in limbo."

To be fair, there will always be disconnect between team management and staff; it’s simply inevitable. You have thousands and thousands of fans, each with their own unique perspectives, and you only have a handful of people in management.

That said, however, the discrepancy between these two groups seems obvious and is therefore quite disconcerting. I’ve hardly talked to anyone who agrees with benching Max and Amir, and most people I’ve talked to protest the small ball line-up. And further, most people remain confused as to why we even traded for AI in the first place!

There is real and obvious disconnect here, and I don’t think Pistons fans are accustomed to that. Joe D has always been transparent, and I think we expected the same from MC.

@BG: Good point on fans vs. management perspective. I would say, however, that Curry has been transparent, the problem with him is he seems to be very transparently dumb.

Good point Gabe. I guess what I should have said better is this: Curry was initially very transparent about what his system would be. Namely, he would emphasize old-school, Bad Boy defense which sparked transition offense.

Since the trade, however, defense has hardly been a focus, and our offense is stagnant.

What has bothered me about MC is this:

Either he is not being honest with the fans about the new direction for the team; or, he doesn’t know what that direction is, and he’s scrambling to figure it out.

I suspect the latter is the case, but it would be nice if he would just say: “We hope our fans will be patient with us as we re-work what our style of play will look like.”

I think he could say something like that and say it in such a way as to not inspire panic, which is what the current lack of transparency is doing. Just read this board for proof.

I’m not too concerned with the disconnect between Det org and us fans here and have complete faith in Joe D. I mean, that’s why they do what they do and vice versa. I just don’t like what I see as a “Don’t worry, be happy, it’s just taking longer than we thought” mentality. This is the same type of mentality that has hurt us in years past.

I was particularly alarmed by Joe D’s comment that the pistons aren’t judged by their regular season but rather in the playoffs. Granted that’s true. But at some point don’t you have to say we aren’t getting it done? Regular season or not?

What has been missing this entire season is the pistons imposing their will on the opponent. And you just don’t start doing that in the playoffs. It’s as much physical as it is mental and the only way to develop that is to do it in the regualr season.

We don’t have that swagger or belief when we walk out onto the court that not only are we better, we’re going to stomp on your neck until you say uncle and say that we are. Much of the time we look like a bunch of 5th graders out on the playground during recess because someone didn’t pass us the ball or I scored last possession so at worst we’ll be even if my man scores this trip down.

First it was integrating AI. Then it was getting Dyess back. Now it’s Curry talking about getting stuff done playing small ball. In two weeks it’ll be, “hey, the season is only a third over.” Then “we’ve got a few kinks to work out and peak for the playoffs” which will be followed soon by “we’ve got alot of veterans on this team that know how to play on the road.”

@BG: I’m 100% with you, and it’s kinda crazy that he hasn’t really been called out in the open yet about how differently the product on the court has looked from what he initially promised. As MW said up top, basically everything has turned out to be exactly the opposite of what was promised in the pre-season.

Also, if you have a few minutes free (and want to bang your head against a wall), youtube: “Michael Curry press conference 2.” Skip to about the 1min:30sec mark. That is where Curry explains his “system.” It is not very reassuring.

Just to be transparent myself, I’ve moderated a handful of comments from rival fans trying to stir things up.

I always encourage dissenting opinions and welcome opposing fans to join in intelligent conversation, but blatant attempts at trolling won’t see the light of day.

You show me a team that starts Kwame Brown and i will show you a team going nowhere. You cant have a front court where the powerforward spends all his time at the 3 point line, and the center might as well too because he cant catch or rebound. No matter who is at the guard spot that kind of front court is going to lose games. Kwame has dropped passed from some of the greatest players who ever lived. MJ, Kobe, and now AI if they cant win with him turst me no one can

MW: Thanks for keeping the house clean. These folks need to be sent the shirt: Detroit: Where the dead are hurdled and the weak are eaten.

Gabe: “To win basketball games, you have to rebound more than your opponent, score more than your opponent, shoot more free throws than your opponent, and generally play better than your opponent. That’s what we plan to do.”

Gabe: “I’m 100% with you, and it’s kinda crazy that he hasn’t really been called out in the open yet about how differently the product on the court has looked from what he initially promised. As MW said up top, basically everything has turned out to be exactly the opposite of what was promised in the pre-season.”

What I find ironic is that before the trade (preseason, first two games, and even games 2 and 3) Detroit played with hunger, purpose, and clarity. We resembled the team that won it all again, and I was thrilled with not only winning but how we played.

Since that trade, it’s all evaporated, because we chose to change everything for a player rather than forcing the player to adapt to the system.

“Since that trade, it’s all evaporated, because we chose to change everything for a player rather than forcing the player to adapt to the system.”

At the start, we did try to make AI adapt to our system, and we STILL have not allowed AI to play his way. We have forced him to adopt to the system— its just that the system has changed so much since then.

After getting over the devastation of 3 bad losses to 3 bad teams in a row, I’m getting my bearings and beginning to feel positive again. We could very well be looking at rock bottom for this squad under this coach. This could be the absolute worst of it.

That said, I’ve got faith that Joe D. will not allow Michael Curry to coach this team into oblivion. He’s always been trigger happy with his coaches, so I’m confident that if it comes down to it, Joe will make a substitution. Whether that be Avery Johnson, Jeff Van Gundy or Forty’s Girlfriend, I’m certain we’ll leave this season better off than we are now.

That starts tonight.

Interestingly, Dice disagrees with me:

http://hardcoredetroitfan.wordpress.com/2008/12/12/mcdyess-on-allen-iverson/

Curry says (via Garrett via Gabe): "To win basketball games, you have to rebound more than your opponent, score more than your opponent, shoot more free throws than your opponent, and generally play better than your opponent. That’s what we plan to do."

It seems to me that the second part is really the only thing you have to do.

I’ll agree with Mike Payne that it’s hard to try to get AI to fit our “system” when it’s entirely unclear what our “system” is since the trade. Also, to some extent, you can’t just have a “system” independent of the strengths and weaknesses of your best/starting players.

Toledo Joe:

Everything you’ve said is correct.

The problem is this: our system did fit our players. Now our system (or our old system at least) doesn’t fit the players.

Right?

Our main problem is that our two best players (AI and Rip) play the same position. There are only 48 minutes available at the 2.

@A-ro – yep… and that AI can’t guard any other 2 in the league.

I’m thinking we got 20 or more games before I really start going in to panic mode…

20 games from now, Brad meet panic button:

… Click …Click…. Click..click..clcik*.*clic**cli*CLIK*CL*CL*c**C*L*c*l*ic*l*i*c*c*lkc;aoidu;adkudhfal…

…AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!

For the Celtics to play the kind of defense they do each night, messages must be sent. They can’t expect to defend important positions on the floor just by using hustle and athleticism. Brute physicality needs to be part of the equation.

Years ago you’d replace “Celtics” with “Pistons.”

The lack of defense is simply unacceptable. No more excuses. At home tonight against Indy. Come on, start turning the ship. I’ll be wearing my “Free Amir” shirt. Time to unleash him.

For what its worth, I will be doing my part for a win. I’m not able to watch the game, but I will be emitting positive vibes. Go Stones!

@Jake:
“Brute physicality needs to be part of the equation.”

Absolutely could not agree more. Especially against the Celtics— we know how much of a lil bitch KG can be when he’s pushed around. I’d love to see Maxiell put him on the floor with a healthy flagrant just to get the C’s razzled. Pop your jersey now, Tig Bitchet.

Couldn’t agree more about the defense. I can understand getting the kinks out on the O side. But when it comes to D, that’s unacceptable. It’s not like we’ve got a Mutumbo or Howard in the paint ave 4 bpg. Other than Amir we don’t have anyone considered a shot blocker.

The thing with small ball was to make other teams match up to you and that’s not happening. It’s also predicated on putting so much offensive pressure on the opponent that it takes them out of their normal routine. And based on one game, that didn’t happen.

I get the feeling we are just tryig to see what will stick on the wall. We will get, I think, a good evaluation of Curry’s coaching abilities when we play the wizards next week and see what changes Curry will make that he didn’t make in the game earlier this week. We got outscored by almost 30 the last 3 quarters. Something gotta change.

We need more of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-OZkyyT5mM&feature=related

And this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bBeGy5Lroo

And less of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFl-66WrF_o&feature=related