The Atlanta game was an example of why Billups was such a good defender. People would talk about how quicker guards could beat him off the dribble (I would argue that some of that had to do with the rule changes that kept Billups from using his strength advantages).

But, Billups is a great team defender. He wouldn’t be caught ball watching as much as AI. And the main thing is HE FIGHTS THROUGH SCREENS. Something AI is adverse to doing. Defense is always about quickness.

Ouch man, but its true..

How many more games do we have to lose before Curry gets fired? Joe D must really have confidence in this guy…
We have 10 more games on Sundays in the regular season. How nice.

Reading that article is a bitter pill to swallow, but it’s true. sigh

I’m fear mcurry is someone thats says all the right things, but can’t deliver.

“I’m fearing” that is.I’m also fearing that this team, as it’s playing and the way the games are being called, is a lottery team.

please get this post to dumars in his bunker. two thoughts from a more grunt place.
     stuckey is real good and getting better and has alot in common with chauncey. he might be the one to compare to chauncey rather than ai, cause in a sense that was the real trade. growing pains expected.
     curry’s personnel moves are what offend me. the x’s and o’s are beyond my understanding, but the clumsy, self destructive, and provocative an management of team discipline and personnel is real bad. makes flip look good on this account as well.

that’s what kills me. we have a strong pg who plays physical team defense and is offensively efficient. his name is rodney stuckey, we mortgaged our future on him and maybe we should start giving him the team instead of desperately trying to shoehorn allen iverson into the lead because curry wants to look like a good boy.

ai fans want to go on and on about just playing him 48 minutes and giving him the ball as much as possible. but he’s not a leader, he’s a tool, and not a particularly efficient one.

ai – stop letting nobodies make you look like a rookie, chris duhon, really?

rip – seriously, stop being a bitch. i’m sick of defending you. i’ve been ready to give this team to rip for a couple years now, but in his attempts to get more foul calls he’s turned the refs even further against us. i think rip and sheed should be made aware that they’ve made a pretty shitty bed and are forcing the rest of the team to lay in it.

curry – not playing amir or max is painfully stupid. not playing kwame and then getting out rebounded is also painfully stupid. i don’t care if you miss a rotation or two, when you rebound in double digits it’s ok. two words: kendrick perkins.

i’ve asked it a million times. why the f$%^ do we constantly gloss over the indefensible mental lapses of rip hamilton and rasheed wallace, or tay’s constant refusal to follow his own (missing) shots yet kwame, max, and amir have committed some mystery crime that basically removes them from the equation.

reminds me of Garrett last season saying that despite amir’s numbers he should be benched because he “looked lost”

it’s still early in the season, we could catch fire and by the beginning of the post-season everyone could be ranting and raving about how great we are and how shortsighted we were. but right now this looks like a terrible mistake, on all counts.

This is hard to swallow, but as a fan, I can’t ignore it. I see this current team getting the boot in a first or second round playoff series. No way we beat boston, not to mention that there are about 2-3 other teams I’d take over us right now who are at more organized and hungrier.

I tend to think that all our problems can disappear if either Rip or AI start to come off the bench. I’d rather have AI come off the bench with Dyess and give us a great bench. Rip and Stuck can replicate the dynamic that Billups and Rip had but with more flare since Stuck can attack the basket to draw defenders. We also will have our guys playing their natural positions. I HATE seeing our “center” camping out behind the arc and Stuck and Rip trying to get rebounds. WTF? Boston will destroy us with this small lineup.

I thought Curry was supposed to not care about egos and whatnot and do anything to win games. He even has Dumars’ blessing to be unorthodox in his coaching. Wouldn’t sending a sub-par defender like AI to the bench be considered out the box thinking? Opposing starting guards eat him up, he can do significantly better off the bench and give our team a real chance to win. He’ll also play his best game off of the bench just to prove that he still has it. I think it’ll be a great situation. I don’t think there are many bench PG or SG on other teams that can defend AI.

Detroit can right itself very quickly and get to the finals again this year if they trade RIP for Kaman

Spellcheck is is ready to take over for RIP and Fabio can sub for Tayshun and in certain cases spellcheck subs for tay as well

Amir can play with Kaman who can help him and make up for some of his inexperience

Cheer up folks. All this gloom and doom is too much. Save this crap for after the all star game. Max and the motown babies will get plenty of time to cut their teeth over the next couple of months.

@Kevin S.

Yay! Great post :) I agree with everything you said- and the line, “Curry has somehow extracted the lemon from the lemonade,” is definitely the perfect analogy for this season. We have somehow given our older players more minutes than ever, while still losing games. It’s almost beautiful how perfectly backward all Curry’s decisions have been.

And I also have to completely agree re: AI vs. Billups. I’ve never watched AI this many times in a single season, but I have to say that I’ve been shocked at how not great of a player he is. You used PER to show Billups is at least 4-5 wins better, but there are other advanced metrics which suggest the difference is even greater (and I’m starting to believe those other metrics are closer to the truth). Looking forward to the second part of your season analysis.

@Quick Darshan:
Agreed that a huge difference between AI and Billups on D is just court awareness. Billups has one of the highest B-Ball IQ’s in the NBA, which I think is why he’s remained an elite defender at his position even after the rule changes.

Great summary of the season so far. All points are exactly what Ive been arguing this season as well.

One thing though about Iverson and PG defense, although it will still be worse than last year, I think you need to attribute some of that improved scoring by opposing PGs on Stuckey as well. Tne Nets game against Devin Harris jumps into my mind as a good example. The Iverson/Stuckey point guard defense combo has been inefficent.

Pretty much sums up all my feelings right now re: this team.

Curry’s decisions this season have been nothing less than mind-boggling most of the time and I have no friggin clue how he decides on rotations and substitutions. Honestly, I wouldn’t be surprised if he’s dropping a marker on his dry erase board during timeouts.

On the bright side, I still have hope since these are the Pistons. But the best Christmas present right now would be for me to stop hearing “If I only had a brain…” play in the back of my head every time Curry does or says something.

Loved the article, but waiting impatiently on the follow up – the FUTURE.

Even with Curry’s substitution patterns, AI’s “lapses” and Rip’s bitching, I’m most disappointed in our demeanor. To paraphrase:

La Tee Da.
Loop de loop.
Against the Pistons,
you can’t take it to the hoop.

At least that’s how it used to be.

Even if Billups did get beat off the dribble, we at least looked concerned enough to shut down the lane and help out. Right now, it’s: “I don’t want my man to score. Everyone else is on their own. Period.” Quite frankly, even at 30 or 32, if you can’t put out a good defensive effort for 25 minutes a nite on average of every other nite in the NBA, you don’t belong on the Pistons and barring injury, somebody’s got to question your professional “athlete” credentials.

Great, so AI sits the fourth quarter after messing up some defensive assignments. WTF about the 2 or third time sitting his ass down? Immediately!! I mean, gee. Did he think after the first 2 or 3 shots made by Bibby that maybe, just maybe, Mike had it going? If Curry is going to DNP-CD Amir, Max & Kwame for a couple of games, AI should be right there with them. He’s been on the team nearly two months and he’s still making 3 or 4 “lapses” in less than 3 quarters?

I love the Rip for Kaman trade idea. I even wouldn’t mind a Sheed for Odom deal at this point. At least Odom looks like he wants to play D some nites. Kaman, Odom, Tay, Stuck & AI. If Pheonix can swing a Diaw/Bell for Richardson, then certainly Joe D. has to be talking to someone. But a Rip for Kaman at least Sheed gets to go to the 4, Kaman can provide some low post scoring and rebounding.

What about AI for Starbury? At least we know (hopefully) that Starbury would be coming off the bench at best, we don’t have to worry about hurt feelings, we’d have the starting 5 most of us agree on that would be better suited to our personnel, and his contract still comes off this year. At this point, get Stuck running the point in a traditional manner. Does anyone really think we’re going with a 3 guard offense next year? Because if this trade was for the future, let’s start working on it yesterday.

I will admit I was excited about the AI experiment at first. But, that missed Thanksgiving practice probably should have confirmed to us exactly how this year was shaping up. I guess when AI said “Joe D. told me how things are done in Detroit” following the missed practice should have sent up a warning, like, “WTF AI. You actually thought this was different and Joe D. didn’t tell you this before today?” Wake up!!

On a side note, I didn’t realize that 1: there are several “2nd tier” free agents in 2010 (i.e., not Wade, Bron, Bosh, Amare, etc.) that are pretty good (heard the list last nite, don’t remember exactly who) and 2: due to the CBA expiring after the 2010 season, some folks think next summer is the year to make a move as the new CBA won’t be as generous to the players.

Hoepfully Joe D. has a plan. If not, then hopefully he needs to change it because if this is the plan, it ain’t working.

The one other thing I think should be addressed is- the change to small-ball. Especially because Curry and Joe D are insisting that they’re gonna stick with it for a long time, if not the rest of the season.

IMO small-ball and AI don’t mix, because when you play AI even in a standard line-up you are already getting a lot of the effects, both positive and negative, of small-ball. So with small-al we’re adding to the negative effects that AI brings by rarely having players on the court with the size and mentality to make up for his weaknesses- basically making his weaknesses stand out even more.

To go with that, how many “aggressive” (that’s Curry’s favorite word, I guess, even though he was probably one of the all time most passive players), offensive players do you need in a line-up at a time? In the main rotation, it seems like Curry is uncomfortable with anything less than 4. Which I would argue might possibly be TOO MANY. I think our offensive efficiency is actually being hurt by constantly having so many “scorers” on the court at the same time, because while it keeps the defense from keying in on a single player, it also makes our offensive extremely unfocused.

Kyl: Awww, you remembered!

(I still think Amir looks lost some times but I’d rather see him play than get DNP-MCIAFI’s)

Here’s my fix…

To Sac. Kings – Allen Iverson
To Pistons from Kings – Brad Miller, John Salmons, and either Mikki Moore or Kenny Thomas either of whom may be bought out

It works under the cap.

The Pistons still have good 2010 flexibility. Salmons is on for one more year beyond 2010 at around 5 million, but Brad Miller and Kenny Thomas/Mikki Moore come off after next year.

The rotation looks like this:
Point Guard: Rodney Stuckey, Will Bynum, Alex Acker (Tay may have to play point some depending on match-ups)
Shooting Guard: Richard Hamilton, Aaron Afflalo, Alex Acker
Small Forward: Tayshaun Prince, John Salmons
Bigs: Rasheed Wallace, Brad Miller, Antonio McDyess, Amir Johnson, Jason Maxiell (Depending on who earns it and match-ups)
Leftovers: Kwame (eat it), Walter Herrmann (Use in SF/PF if desired, or as insurance, or trade for draft pick/s), Walter Sharpe (develop)

Solid at least two lineups deep, everyone playing at their natural position. Kings would be happy unloading all the salary.

Good post, and it’s been really depressing to watch our Pistons this year. Doubly so to watch Denver and Cleveland thrive in large part based on our castaways — Ben Wallace has been playing really well for the Cavs, and I’ve actually been enjoying their games on LeaguePass for the Ben factor.

Oh, for a second view that Ben has been a big part of the Cavs’ success, check the end of this story:

http://www.cleveland.com/pluto/blog/index.ssf/2008/12/this_cavaliers_team_could_be_b.html

“Give (General Manager) Danny Ferry credit for knowing what kind of players he wanted, then making the trades to get them,” said Embry. “He pulled the trigger on two huge deals. But Danny fades into the background and lets the coaches and players take the credit. That’s what a good GM should do.”

Embry said the focus is on the addition of Mo Williams in the backcourt, and that makes sense because Williams is the point guard the Cavs have been seeking since James joined the team in 2003.

“But the unsung hero is Ben Wallace,” said Embry. “He doesn’t need the basketball. He defends. He rebounds. He doesn’t care about any fanfare. He protects Big Z (Ilgauskas), and he’s one tough guy.”

I really, really, really don’t remember Chauncey as fondly as everyone else does. I think that our last four losses in the Finals fall squarely on his shoulders, even more than Flip, Sheed, Ben, or anyone else. The dude wore a C on his jersey for a reason, then after he left he talked about how Flip lost the locker room and Sheed just gave up during playoff games. What kind of leader just lets that happen year after year? I think Chauncey’s a good guy, but I’m very glad he’s not on our team anymore. As far as his game goes, I seriously think he’s Andre Miller with a three ball. The difference between him and Iverson are obviously huge – but the biggest is that Chauncey is a stabilizer while AI creates chaos, and ours isn’t a roster suited for chaos. But elite player? No way. You’d have to have the word “elite” awfully watered down for Chauncey to qualify. He might still be a top 5 point guard in the league, but not for long. We weren’t winning a title with him, this year and especially not in the future.

Ok. Sorry. Been holding that rant back ever since the trade.

I agree with everything except calling flip a phenomenal coach. I think he was very good. But some of the post-season collapses is on him. The evidence from his time in minny to his time here is that he is just more successful in the regular season. Popovich is phenomenal; phil jackson is phenomenal. Like most of the piston players, flip was simply well above the median.

Hey everyone- I’m a long time lurker, steered to this site by my good friend (since I was 5) Toledo Joe. I figured since I remember the times when the Pistons were a whole lot worse then they are now (ie, most of the 90s), this might be a good time for me to join the conversation.

Michael Curry, to be sure, isn’t any kind of coaching genius. I wouldn’t compare him to Ron Rothstein, who single-handedly emasculated the Bad Boys, but I might compare him to one of Rothstein’s successors, George Ervine- a guy who really tried, but just couldn’t get it done. But Ervine inherited a team of no names; Curry has a superstar, some All Stars, a few solid role players, and a couple rookies with high potential. If he can’t be a good coach, at least let him have the sense to be a do-nothing coach. I’m pretty sure Joe D will never let us fall into the darkness of the TEAL days again, but these last few games have still brought out the alarmist in me.

I like AI. I have always liked AI. But it really bothers me that he was brought in on a trade and was instantly accepted as the voice of the team. Come on, he’s the new guy. Don’t ask him why the team won or lost. Ask Rip. Ask Tayshaun. Hell, ask Stuckey. To be fair, a lot of undue expectations have been put on him, but really, 20 million dollars pays for a lot of pressure. In a nut shell, my philosophy about the whole AI thing is, don’t make him the scapegoat, don’t make him the savior- just bring him off the bench with Afflalo and Maxiell and ‘Dyess. Until someone has the nuts to that, we’re gonna continue to be torched by sub-500 teams.

Small ball: nothing I can say about that mess that hasn’t already been brought up. It is an option that might work in certain situations, but- well, to appropriate an old George Carlin routine- it’s like putting a heel lift in your shoes. It can make you feel good for a while, but don’t leave it in too long because it will cause permanent damage. OK, he said it about religion, but it works for small ball too…

That’s all I got to say, except, I suppose there IS an upside to this… yuppies don’t like losing teams, so it’s a whole lot easier to get good tickets now… and to those of us who love the Pistons whether they win or lose, that ain’t a bad thing…

Gabe made a good point about AI being his own smallball.

I know a lot of you think Langlois is a homer and bias – but he makes some good points as does Eli Zaret in their blogs.

In a nutshell, both of them have quoted Dumars as stating that he cannot manage the Pistons based on opinion polls, that they needed to change now or really fade away and IMO the most important – that he (dumars) sees things farther in the future than anyone else and that this is his job to do so

It seems to me that something else is cooking – but I have faith in joe D and the pistons and believe that we will be much better in may-june than most people think

Rob K: Agree, AI is neither the savior nor scapegoat. My biggest concern is that we are changing the team to match AI and not the other way around. Particularly since he’s a one-year rental and he’s not the MAX super-star he once was.

And as for small ball and realizing it’s a small sample of games: I have yet to hear of one team who adjusted their starting line-up to match us. If that’s the case and our defense is in the tank, why exactly are we doing this?

Here is one of the reasons I am such a big fan of Amir.

He is as George Blaha says “One of the nice guys”

A short video of Amir buys gifts for kids for the Holidays along with some Sponge Bob Square Pants for himself.

compliments of Need4sheed.com

http://need4sheed.com/

I’m with Shinons to a point. Don’t get me wrong, Chauncey was my favorite Piston for a long time. His influence on Denver so far is commendable and I’m glad to see it. But he was not going to play that way and have that kind of affect in Detroit anymore. It just wasn’t going to happen, as he was our high king of complacency. This goes to show that he has it in him to pull a team together and make everyone better while contributing a lot individually. It just wasn’t going to happen here.

I think all these trade fixes are a little out there. It was fun to discuss when Joe assured us that something was coming, but I don’t really expect another big move. Trading Rip doesn’t seem like a good idea to me. He’s finally got his shot going, has been forced to expand (a little) beyond just screen and pops, and is playing good defense. His attitude sucks, but hopefully he’ll get over it. We clearly have the talent to compete as it is, and the problem is how that talent is being managed. I’ve about given up on the win-now mentality, I’m just hoping it gets a little less embarrassing and one of these games, something makes sense.

Rob K.!!!! With the very apt historical references!

Along with almost all Pistons fans I haven’t been happy with the results since Billups was sent packing for a one way player whose defensive success is limited to an occassional steal.

Also, like a lot of Pistons fans I haven’t been overly excited or even happy about Curry’s rotations, but the reality of it is that no coach is going to start Amir at this point and force AI, Prince or Rip to the bench as a result.

It is totally imperative that Stuckey start at PG and get as much expeience there as possible this season. Unless you run the triangle offense PG is the most important position on offense by far. Stuckey, even more so than Amir, is the Pistons future so Curry is doing the right thing in letting him start.

Woodson was considered a bust in Atlanta for his first three years until the playoffs last year.

Yes, Curry is going to go through growing pains but I am not willing to through him under the bus at this point and say that he has no potential to be one of the better of coaches in the league.

To me the verdict on Curry’s coaching ability will be out until the Pistons replace Sheed, AI, Dice, and either Rip or Tay or both.

My only real complaint with Curry is that he is playing Dice ahead of Amir and not letting Amir use all of his fouls.

Amir for Dice

Change we can believe in

This is Mike and I approve this message.

@Greg:
I agree completely, re: Rip. I feel that, as it stands now, our roster is fine. I’m not the GM, but I don’t feel we need any more moves with this roster.

@Rob K:
Welcome! Any friend of Toledo Joe’s is a friend of ours.

Also, I think Rip deserves a hell of a lot of praise for what he’s done this season. 1) shown that his offense wasn’t predicated upon a pairing with Billups (against my suspicions) and 2) he’s excelled in the face of being played out of position, adapting quite well to the new role.

@ Mike: Woodson didn’t have any talent, excluding J. Johnson. He got Bibby and Horford last year, I’m not sure that’s a good comparison.

We’ve already seen what Curry can do when replacing CB. Do we really want to see what he can do when a second borderline all-star is replaced?

Re Curry, sure, we need to be realistic about things it would be hard to do. Convincing Rip or AI to come off the bench (necessary to start Stuckey in a normal lineup) would be hard. Figuring out which of the Maxy/Brown/Amir group should get significant minutes is hard, since they all have some positives, some minuses, and none have an consistent post offensive game.

But having said that, Curry has managed to come up with a solution — small ball and giving almost no time to Maxy/Brown/Amir — that isn’t good for this year or the future. It won’t work in the playoffs this year, doesn’t develop our young bigs or even let us know what they can do; it forces two main guys (Rip and Tay) to play out of position; and even though it’s getting Stuckey more minutes, he’s leading a gimmicky offense that won’t likely be replicated in the future.

Oh, and Mike Payne, while I appreciate the kind words, you might reconsider if you met some of my friends. But Rob K. rules.

Garrett: You are completely wrong about Amir looking lost. If it’s not a quality that can be statistically quantified then it does not exist.

Bitchy side-quips intended for just one DBB reader: where LawyerBoy happens.

I agree that it’s not AI’s fault. And, as I said, before, it has more to do with the front court not being up there with the best in the league. Imagine if the Bulls, Heat or Wizards had a legit big man. They’d be right up there with the elite of the league.

I can’t see the team winning as currently constructed, even if they start playing up to their potential. There’s simply not enough of a post presence.

I really think it’s a good idea to see if Utah would take Sheed for Boozer. We could get a one year trial run with Boozer. As for Utah, Sheed would be a great fit for Utah the team, although he’s not likely a great fit for Utah the state. It’s worth it to ask.

“Bitchy side-quips intended for just one DBB reader: where LawyerBoy happens.”

LOLZ

I really do love this place. It’s better than Stumble. And working.

Jeremy’s idea is really good if the Kings truly are interested in dumping salary. Salmons would warrant more playing time than just backup SF minutes (Afflalo probably gets the shaft), but Brad Miller is a good enough C to warrant a starting position. I like it.

If we trade ‘Sheed for Boozer, wouldn’t Curry still play small ball, with Rip as our 3 and Tay as our 4? If so, I don’t think it matters whether the one big playing is Boozer or ’Sheed. In fact, I think the Jazz still own us in head-to-head competition.

Now, if we imagine the current lineup next year minus ’Sheed and minus Iverson but plus Boozer and Bosh, well, that might be something good: Stuckey, Rip, Tay, Bosh, and Boozer is a pretty damn tough sounding starting five. Afflalo and maybe Bynum could play guard off the bench.

I wonder if any of our young bigs could step up off the bench next year and be significant producers. Oh yeah, looks like we won’t learn anything about that this year because they WON’T GET TO PLAY.

We couldn’t get Bosh next year (except maybe by trade). I doubt Curry would go small ball with Boozer at Center. Might as well see how he plays with Stuckey, Rip and Tay.

That being said, Jeremy’s idea is much better.

I’ve said it before, and I suspect I’ll say it again:

Play Iverson 100% off the ball on offense, as Curry is currently doing, and he’s going to be an average NBA player at very best.

And if Iverson is an average NBA player at very best, the Palace will certainly be dark in June, and will probably be dark in mid-May.

Give Iverson the ball, and limit his minutes.

Iverson’s defense will be better. The Pistons’ offense will be better. And Stuckey will still get tick.

There is a team that can compete with the elite hidden in this roster. But Curry isn’t playing the correct rotations, and isn’t assigning the correct roles.

MP: John Hollinger reads DBB? I mean, I know Henry Abbott is a fan of mine, but wow. Thanks for the heads up. I’ll just start addressing him personally.

Nice shout out on true hoop, kevin. Now everyone can share our pain.

I have a question for anyone who thinks we can contend this year:how many players on boston would you take before you took any pistons? For me it’s 4…I’m just not sure we’re that close to being elite…but I hope I’m wrong!

“The Pistons are 14-11 this morning. In 2004, they were 16-13 around this time, having lost 7 of 9. That team won a championship. My point here is that right now this team also doesn’t seem title ready. But just as in 2004, the time when title worthiness will ultimately be determined also isn’t now.” These are comments from an Eli Zaret article on detroitpistons.com.

I am not trying to compare this team to the championship team of 2004, but I do remember being very frustrated with the way that team started the year also. Who knows? We might turn this thing around.

Additionally, I’ll note that playing Iverson 100% off the ball is one of the most perverse things I’ve ever seen in the association. It’d be as if the Suns acquired Shaquille O’Neal and had him spot up outside the three point arc on every possession.

When I say that playing Iverson 100% off the ball on offense makes him an average NBA player at very best, I’m not joking. It leaves all of Iverson’s liabilities, while bringing none of his assets. It’s as if one were playing Steve Nash or Chris Paul 100% off the ball.

I always thought the concept that Iverson was a ‘2’ guard was a harmless masquerade designed to protect Iverson (and his coaches) from certain kinds of press coverage. But now it’s coming back to bite him on the ass since Curry/Dumars seem to have fully bought into the masquerade.

@Petey – It’s not his offense that is troubling… it’s his D… and he guards PGs. Look at the numbers in the article. It’s pretty obvious his D is turribull(as Barkley would say.)

@Petey – AI IS a 2. You tell me… which are his stats closer to? Isiah Thomas or Michael Jordan?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/iversal01.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thomais01.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html

What your saying makes as much sense as saying Jordan should have been a PG. It’s silly. AI’s game is to try and penetrate and score, and only passes when he needs to be bailed out. That’s not a PG.

“I have a question for anyone who thinks we can contend this year:how many players on boston would you take before you took any pistons? For me it’s 4”

I think the correct answer is only 2.

But that’s not how the game gets scored, of course. I’d rather have 1 player from Cleveland than 2 players from Boston.

“I’m just not sure we’re that close to being elite…but I hope I’m wrong!”

If smart decisions are made on rotations and roles, we indeed do have a path to the elite. It’s not the easiest path in the world, but it’s not the hardest path either.

If smart decisions are NOT made on rotations and roles, we’re a .500 team.

Nick T.: Exactly. I think 2004-2005 is a better example though, when we sat at 15-13 through December and didn’t make a gigantic trade in February that season. I’m not really one for making up my mind on a season in December. Of recent example, the Philadelphia 76ers last season weren’t either.

“Petey – It’s not his offense that is troubling… it’s his D… and he guards PGs. Look at the numbers in the article. It’s pretty obvious his D is turribull(as Barkley would say.)”

If you play Iverson fewer minutes, his defense will improve. He’ll be more able to chase offensive players through screens.

If you give Iverson the ball on offense, the opposition point guard will have to expend a significant amount of energy defending him while he’s on the court, and thus will be less able to punish the Pistons on the other end.

If you give Iverson the ball on offense, he’ll be able to add enough Detroit points to more than make up for what he costs on the other end.

Iverson, like Chris Paul and Steve Nash, has always had severe defensive liabilities. If you’re going to voluntarily take away his handle, which is the main asset he brings to your team, all you’re left with is his defensive liabilities. It’s why he’s an average NBA player at very best if you play him 100% off the ball on offense.

Forty: On the Boston question, are you talking this season only or is the future a concern as well?

oh my god, people are so negative these days. yes the pistons are struggerling but its not the end of the world, the fact is we had a line up of huge talent and our coac happens to be a little slow in the head and hasnt found out how to use it.

first of all stop saying billups was the best player ever , he was past his best last year, the team had lost its authority in the east we havnt been title containders for years, we had no running game, sluggish defence bassed on help side and had no-one to turn to in the playoffs. i love billups but losing him was a positive in many ways and somthing we had to do we would never had beaten Boston this year.

As for A.I or the answer as he is known, he is what he is, a leathal offensive scoring machine a sub par defender and an upset for players around him, the only thing thats different from that is Curry isnt letting him be A.I we need to focus our offence on our best player more we look so random at times like we just let every player have a shot, Tay dosent need 17 points a game hes a defender and a 3 point shooter and occasily runs in the lane for his one hander when we need it, Rip isnt shooting his mid range well this season he needs to pull his finger out if were going to beat the beater teams, Sheed hasnt gotten involved we need to just let him post up and score some easy buckets to keep the score board ticking and when hes got the ball put on Kwame or Amir to gets some offensive rebounds, then let Iverson in the lane

The season is stil young we have shown glimses of greatness e.g beating L.A cleveland but Curry needs to settle down, sort out his team and use A.I as A.I not as a part time scorer who gets benched for playing bad D that will just make him more reluctant to play it, give the ball to him and let him take over games thats the only way we can beat Boston and his name is Iverson if he can get going in a series then we can hold off a team with D, we are contenders this year but we need time to gel calm down Mo town

@Petey – Chris Paul and Nash PASS THE BALL. Do you understand what a PG is? This isn’t grade school where the shortest guy and best ball handler is automatically the PG.

for more references to what real PG’s stats look like…

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/n/nashst01.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/paulch01.html

Comparisons to slow starts in some recent years are odd, considering in the championship season we added Rasheed, and even a couple of years ago when we started out around .500 after 20 or so games, we added Chris Webber (who, whatever you think of his playoff performance, was a tremendous spark in the regular season).

So sure, I can imagine we could do better if we make a trade in which we gain more talent than we give up. I’m just struggling to see how the Pistons are a legit threat to win the East with this roster (and this coach), much as I would like to believe Petey.

Darshan: Thanks for noticing my trade suggestion. I really think it does make sense (though of course I don’t expect it to happen). The Kings are actively looking to trade Brad Miller as a means of unloading Mikki Moore or Kenny Thomas. Moore has the smaller salary of the two, but either works in the trade cap-wise. I bet they wouldn’t mind unloading Salmons either. I don’t really see him as a part of their long term, and he’s got three more years on his contract.

Jeremy, hoopshype.com had a Salmons trade on the rumor page. Granted it was a rumor.

Petey: No offense, but that’s the definition of good gym D: scoring more points than your guy.

Playing him less does not mean he’ll chase thru screens more. He’s not even doing it to start the game. And in AI’s way of thinking, playing fewer minutes doesn’t mean stronger D. It means less time to jack up 20 shots.

As for the comparison of Nash & Paul, they get other guys involved. Sure, AI might average ~6 assists a game, but that’s an afterthought and by accident. Nash & CP3 scoring could average as much as AI if they took the same number of shots. And I’m sure that a number of Nash/CP3 passes that don’t result in direct assists lead to fouls by the opposing team. AI’s, not so much.

I agree he’d put an incredible amount of pressure on opposing PG’s, but even more so if he was coming off the bench. Dyess is for it. Let AI use his handle with Dyess, Amir & Max running around along with Spellcheck and we’re a potent offsenive 2nd team with a couple of shut down defenders.

I think Stuck becomes a better PG in the future if he’s running a traditional type offense, not small ball. People call it gimicky, but when folks played GS, NY or Phoenix, you heard alot of commentators approach it from “how is XXX going to match up to GS or Phoenix” when they go small ball. Not anyone is talking about how they are going to match up with us.

From my perspective, Curry doesn’t look like he’s got a rotation pattern set. He gets killed on the boards and his answer is to substitute more scoring to make up for it. He looks like he’s making a salad out there hoping something will come to fruition while not really knowing the recipe.

“Petey – It’s not his offense that is troubling… it’s his D… and he guards PGs. Look at the numbers in the article. It’s pretty obvious his D is turribull(as Barkley would say.)”

Here’s another way to think about the thing:

I think the Pistons’ best perimeter defender is Arron Afflalo. But Afflalo can’t get any tick because he has no offensive halfcourt game other than hitting wide open three point shots.

But if Iverson has the ball on offense, he will generate a multitude of wide open three point shots for Afflalo, thus making him productive on both ends of the court. If you want the Pistons defense to improve with Iverson on the floor, try pairing him up with Afflalo in the backcourt.

Interestingly and bizarrely, if you review the Pistons’ wins over Spurs, Cavs, and Lakers, you’ll note that Afflalo is on the floor with Iverson for the key stretch in each game. In total, Afflalo and Iverson are on the floor together for an average of 17mpg during those three games. Curry knew the solution to the puzzle in November. Why has he forgotten it in December?

@Petey – If we started AI at the 1 and AA at the 2 our offense would devolve into everyone standing around watching AI, and trying to guess when he’s going to put up a shot or bail on his penetration. That’s not an offense… that’s street ball. If you want that, go watch those AND1 guys… who aren’t in the NBA.

This will be my last note on AI at PG. Assuming AI makes it to the basketball HoF, he’d be the worst assisting professional PG ever to make it in. You know why? Because he’s not a PG.

“@Petey – Chris Paul and Nash PASS THE BALL. for more references to what real PG’s stats look like…”

You might want to note Nash’s stats outside of D’Antoni speed-up ball. He averages about 7.5 apg. Pace matters.

“Do you understand what a PG is? This isn’t grade school where the shortest guy and best ball handler is automatically the PG.”

Again, what makes Iverson a special player is his handle. He’s never been a particularly good shooter. If you play him 100% off the ball, you are voluntarily taking away his strength.

When Iverson dribbles into the defense, he takes them out of their normal roles. Second defenders come over. Switches happen. Like Nash and Paul, it doesn’t matter if he ends up shooting or passing – whatever happens ends up happening against a scrambling defense that is trying to recover.

Iverson (like Dwyane Wade) is what folks have in mind when they speak of “combo guards”. And if you decide to play a combo guard 100% off the ball, you’ve got a serious problem in your gameplan.

“@Petey – If we started AI at the 1 and AA at the 2 our offense would devolve into everyone standing around watching AI … That’s not an offense… that’s street ball.”

Then Phoenix and New Orleans play street ball.

I don’t care what it’s called. I just care about scoring more points than the opposition.

And FWIW, I don’t care who starts and who doesn’t.

I think all the back and forth that goes on here pretty much points to the same meeting ground, even though we all like to push our points forward like they’re different:

SOMEBODY WITH AN EGO HAS TO GET BENCHED.

That’s it. Not a big deal. Either AI comes off the bench with the Zoo Crew (my preference), or I think Tayshaun comes off the bench (Rip off the bench doesn’t really do anything for me— he needs other people to help him get his). That’s pretty much it. We’ve all already agreed on this in some way or another.

Who cares whether or not AI is a PG or SG. He’s a freaking combo guard who happens to be 6’. The point here isn’t whether he’s playing the 1 or the 2, the point is that him dominating the ball on offense is what he does best and we should let him do it… on the 2nd unit. Put him out there with AA, Dyess, and Maxiell and let them be the Zoo Crew part 2.

Petey is right, we’re misusing one of the best talents of this generation. I don’t care if he’s lost a step, we’re trying to make him do something he hasn’t done in his 12 years in the league and I don’t see how that’s a good thing. This falls on the coaching staff.

Lb – this season. I’d say it’s only two or three if the future counts (would take kg, then rondo, then stuckey or pierce). My math for this year was kg, rondo, pp, allen, lots of pistons, leon powe, etc…

“SOMEBODY WITH AN EGO HAS TO GET BENCHED.”

Again, I don’t care who starts and who doesn’t. What matters is rotations and roles. If you want to compete with the elite this year, here’s the recipe:

Iverson/Afflalo 22mpg
Iverson/Stuckey 12mpg
Stuckey/Rip 14mpg
Rip plays 12mpg at the ‘3’.

All the guards gets tick, and all are put in the best position to succeed.

Tay moves back to the ‘3’ where he belongs. We play some combo of Max/Amir/Kwame for 25 – 30 mpg as the third big.

Other Matt:

Probelm is, AI hasn’t come off the bench in his 12 years in the league either. I think everyone at DBB would be happy with AI coming off the bench to lead Zoo Crew 2. The question is, would AI be happy doing it. Or maybe the question is whether Curry is willing to risk AI being unhappy (and maybe the criticism that could come with being the first coach to not start AI if it doesn’t work).

And I should have been more clear: I meant how many celtics would you take before pistons not named amir?

Obviously

Pg – amir
Sg – amir
Sf – amir
Pf – amir
C – amir

Would be optimal

“I don’t care if he’s lost a step”

When a player is on the cusp of losing a step, you can preserve their effectiveness for a short while by LIMITING THEIR MINUTES. (Sorry for shouting, but it’s important.)

If Iverson plays 40mpg, he’s going to end up resting for a number of possessions while he’s on the court. With the depth of our backcourt, that’s really unnecessary.

If Iverson plays 32 – 34mpg, he can go all out the entire time, as well as getting a competitive advantage against opposition players who are logging bigger minutes.

Yep. Bench Curry.
Just read a piece about Skiles turning Milwaukee into a better defensive ball club than Detroit. It aint the players.
He has until the All-Star break. If it its still broke then fire that stooge.

Why would we want to limit starters’ minutes? That was never the plan. This is a team that historically has rough regular seasons but then flips the switch in the playoffs. We only lost to san antonio b/c we didn’t have home court.

Oh whoops, I confused our 2008 excuses with our 2005 ones. Now we want to develop our young guys but inexplicably are burning out the starters. My bad.

Laughton – bench curry? He’s done way more damage to the organization from the bench than he ever did on the court ;)

“I think everyone at DBB would be happy with AI coming off the bench to lead Zoo Crew 2.”

I don’t care if Iverson starts or comes off the bench, but I want Tay on the court with him for most minutes. I also want a goodly number of minutes with Sheed on the court with him.

@OM – I agree with you completely(shocker, I know)… but Petey has contended, the whole 2 weeks he’s been here, that Stuckey and Rip should come off the bench while AI and AA start. Let AI go wild off the bench… that’d be great.

“Petey has contended, the whole 2 weeks he’s been here, that Stuckey and Rip should come off the bench while AI and AA start.”

Reading comprehension, dude. I’ve been pretty clear and consistent since the trade that I don’t care who starts and who doesn’t. I just want Afflalo on the floor with Iverson, and I don’t think Rip and Iverson should be on the floor together very much.

And I’ve been here about 7 weeks now. Time flies when you’re playing .500 ball.

A question for folks who were Pistons fans before this year (aka everyone but me):

Did Dumars regularly travel with the team before this season?

Petey:

I’m fine with Iverson coming off the bench, but not Tayshaun. Tayshaun really needs to start, because he’s one of the better all-around SFs in the league and Detroit doesn’t have — and hasn’t had in a while — another good SF (no disrepect to Herrmann, but I don’t see him as a starter).

In the non-smallball world we want, if AI starts, that means he plays with Stuckey and Rip comes off the bench with Afflalo. I think the Stuckey-Rip, AI-Afflalo parings work better. Plus, Detroit has so few limited options on offense in its second unit, AI could really go nuts.

Yes, I’ve always seen shots of Dumars at road game telecasts.

Looks like the consensus is that we have two units:

Unit One:
Stuckey
Rip
Tay
Amir/Kwame (based on matchup)
Sheed

Unit Two:
AI
Afflalo
Rip/Tay/Stuckey (inevitable overlap)
Maxiell
McDyess

The problem with the scenario above is, how do you keep AI off the court at the end of the game. That would piss him off more than not starting.

@Petey I agree with your point about AI doing his thing with the ball, and everyone else about him coming off the bench. I don’t personally like him playing with Sheed because it makes him even less likely to get on the damn block. AI is an invitation to stand outside and watch. I also don’t see how AI makes Prince much better – as long as he goes back to playing at the 3, he’ll be better. And seeing as Curry likes to play him 40+ minutes a game, you could expect the two to share a lot of time if AI came off the bench. Dyess and Afflalo are great options for open shots, and if gasp Herrmann got to give Tay some relief at SF, he’s a great one too. I get irritated thinking about this because odds are almost zero that Curry does any of this. He actually HAS settled on a rotation these last few weeks: small ball with starters, Dyess 6th starter, then flashes of Afflalo and Max/Amir/Brown (never all 3, none for very long). It’s not working and won’t consistently give us anything good, but we score enough in the first half that Curry can slide the blame around when we lose because our D sucks, we go stagnant on O, or both.

+1 to Joel.

Somebody with an ego comes off the bench and I think that’s AI. He’s going to be a one year rental and right now we’re not a championship caliber team. So let the starters be who they are going to be, next year we replace him in the 2nd unit (albeit, with a lesser talent) and the starters carry over their groove. I also see Sheed coming back for less money before AI does. But right now with both AI and Sheed starting, we have to replace 40% of our starters next year (assuming they aren’t re-signed).

And I also contend that at the end of the day, AI gets more money next year if he can demonstrate that he can come off the bench for someone. Bos, Clev, Lakers, Spurs, Magic, Houston, etc., aren’t going to sign him to start. So he’s got a choice of starting on probably a sub-.500 team jacking up 20 shots a game at 40% averaging 20, or becomes a sixth man for a contender with a chance for some jewelry. I apologize for being stupid, but that just doesn’t seem to me to be a hard decision when you’ve already made upwards of 100M freakin’ dollars and you’re 32 years old.

If this season truly is about the future while remaining competitive, we can do that and still create an ongoing cohesiveness for the starting 5 going forward.

This idea of small ball is a joke. I don’t see us matching up in a 7 game series agianst Magic, Clev or Bos with small ball. Rip may do well in stretches guarding Bron or PP, but I think he gets eaten alive over the long haul. He’s got the stamina, not the body type.

I agree with Dyess: Give AI the ball and get out of the way. It used to work with the 1st five earlier in his career. It now only works with the 2nd five.

“I’m fine with Iverson coming off the bench, but not Tayshaun. Tayshaun really needs to start, because he’s one of the better all-around SFs in the league and Detroit doesn’t have — and hasn’t had in a while — another good SF”

I think Tay should play more mpg per game than anyone else on the team.

FWIW, I think folks have the mistaken idea that there should be a First Team and a Second Team, and never the twain shall meet.

But that’s not what the optimal rotations would look like for this squad.

Tay can start. Iverson can come off the bench. And Tay can still be on the floor for the bulk of Iverson’s minutes.

Similarly, Iverson and Rip can both start to keep anyone from losing face, but Iverson and Rip can rarely be on the court together at the same time.

You Pistons’ fans are spoiled by a stretch of having a really good Starting Five, so you got into a starter/bench mindset. But that’s not the squad we have right now. We’ve got a good 8 or 9 player rotation, but our old guys are getting old, and our young guys are still young, so everyone except Tay needs to have limited minutes and defined roles.

Check out this recent Spurs game to see what the rotations on a team of old and young players should look like. The “Starting Five” are on the court together for about 8 minutes in the first half, and about 3 minutes in the second half. In other words, it doesn’t matter who starts.

“The problem with the scenario above is, how do you keep AI off the court at the end of the game. That would piss him off more than not starting.”

Winning cures everything and based on his defensive performance Sun., it’s a moot point whether he’s pissed off or not. I know it is to Tay.

If anyone is going to the game tonight, bring a big sign that says “AI for 6th MOTY”

“I also don’t see how AI makes Prince much better – as long as he goes back to playing at the 3, he’ll be better.”

Prince is a glue guy. He makes other players better, not vice versa. He gets his offense when everyone stops paying attention to him.

And FWIW, if you want an Iverson/Afflalo backcourt for serious minutes, you NEED to have Tay on the floor as the ‘3’.

The gameplan is to have Iverson drive and shoot or kick. But a certain percentage of the times Iverson drives, he’ll get stuck. If he starts early enough in the shot clock, he’ll give it up for a reset with about 10 left to shoot. I want Tay to be the secondary point in those situations, since he makes sane decisions about what to do with the ball.

Without Tay on the floor to be a secondary point, the Iverson/Afflalo backcourt wouldn’t be the killing machine it’s been so far.

Petey: I agree it doesn’t matter who starts and the minutes. But the Spurs have Parker drive and finish/dish or TD on the block. And that’s what they run. The Jaxx run pick-n-roll. That’s what they run. My point is, they have a consistent offensive philosophy that they follow and we don’t.

Ours is dependent upon whose in the game. With a talent like AI, he can dominate the 2nd five. But he’s no longer able to run 40+ minutes a nite and dominate so when he’s off the court, we change our offense.

We did it with Joe, Isiah and Vinnie. The Microwave came in and we changed our O to fit him.

In my opinion, the losses are a large part due to bad rotations, and a starting lineup that will never succeed. I’m not trying to put the blame on Curry, because I don’t think it’s fair. However, you can’t look at our starting lineup and not scratch your head. Small-ball isn’t going to win you a championship And when I look this roster, I see a team that’s a lot better than what the record shows. Maybe I’m just too much of a fan.

And I don’t see how you could put some of the blame on the players being told old. Maybe you could say that about Rasheed since he is our starting big-man, but Hamilton isn’t to old to do what he is capable of. It’s like saying Chauncey is to old and than when he gets sent off to Denver he plays like a top five point guard again. Mcydess is getting older, but he is coming off the bench and he is playing within his role.

At some point you hope Curry will realize what he is doing isn’t working. It’s just a matter of at what he point he realizes it.

Also I can’t help but say you’re overrating Chauncey on defense a bit. Which point guard was the one that went for thirty some points in the ECF’s against the Cavs? Daniel Gibson? Chauncey had his moments on poor defense as well.

“Petey: I agree it doesn’t matter who starts and the minutes. But the Spurs have Parker drive and finish/dish or TD on the block. And that’s what they run. The Jaxx run pick-n-roll. That’s what they run. My point is, they have a consistent offensive philosophy that they follow and we don’t.”

Well, we’re about 7 weeks into a mid-season deal for a player who’d be difficult to integrate even with a full training camp. We’re going to struggle all year to determine our offensive philosophy.

But I look forward to the spring, and in a seven game series against Cleveland or Boston, I’m going to want Afflalo on the floor in the 4th quarter as a defender. That means I’m going to want Iverson on the floor in the 4th quarter to keep Afflalo from being a dead-weight on the offensive end. Start there, work backwards, and everything starts to fall into place.

“(Iverson is) no longer able to run 40+ minutes a nite and dominate so when he’s off the court, we change our offense.”

That’s the beauty of the Stuckey/Rip backcourt. When Iverson is on the bench, there will still be ways to find good shots.

The Denver perspective:
The Nuggets played the Blazers last night, and, in a relatively even game, shut them down in the last few minutes. In the last two possessions, Chauncey denied the ball from Roy to the point where other players had to take the shot. I can’t imagine that ever ocuring with AI.

Chauncey is the best thing that ever happened to this team. Defensively, he sets the tone at the point of attack. He guards the position better than anyone I can think of right now, even if he will get taken off the dribble by quicker guards (he won’t foul, and will own the matchup on the otherside of the ball). Offensively, they way he runs the show and the way he shares the ball is infectious.

I’ve always loved the Pistons team of the past few years, but I think it tended to cover up just how good Chauncey was, while overvaluing Rip. So, Thanks Joe! You guys enjoy AI’s uncoachability, ego, and efense, and I’ll take the exact opposite.

Toledo Joe, I understand that asking AI to come off the bench is something he’s not done. I find that to be the lesser of 2 evils between “totally change the way you play on the court” and “come off the bench and chuck it”.

I wish these guys could go bronco out there on the floor and not need a dude with a clipboard, but they do.

 The worst part of this 08/09 squad is Hangin’ with Mr. Curry. Pistons had similar woes and W/L record this time back in 2004, but they had Larry Brown at the helm.

 I’m not calling for his firing, but Curry is horrible so far. He is a bad head coach right now. Bad.