Pistons host Thunder

You have a knack for putting Allen Iverson in a wheel chair. You keep trying to make it seem like he’s old and that he’s lost too much of a step. In somethin you wrote before, you said his skill had been deteriorating over the last couple of years. His usage rate went way down from philadelphia, yet he averaged around the same amount of points, on a higher field goal percentage and more assists. This is while he had Carmelo Anthony on his team.

He’s still far and beyond better than a lot of players in the league. You keep throwing his age out there like his stats show that he’s been on the decline. He shoots less shots and he’s on Detroit. He can’t average 27 or 28 points. What’s the point of that? So what if he’s 33. He’s still faster than just about everyone in the league. For once stop looking at age, and look at him play. Yea, he started out slow this season, but he had a knee contusion during training camp. It’s gone away and he’s beginning to shoot at a higher percentage. He’s not just another guard who’s game goes down after he turns 29. He had his career high at the age of 30. He was averaging around 30 fo his last couple of years and has averaged less shot attempts and a lower usage rate.

Last year he played on a team that didn’t play defense, so why would you expect him to be a great defensive player already. He’s getting better. Nobody mentioned that. He’s been shooting better with the exception of the last 2 games. Nobody mentioned that.

@Entity:

So yeah… why does it make sense to play AI on 3 days rest against OKC? It’s not hating on AI to say that there’s no reason for him to risk making an injury he has already suffered worse or not heal properly. He has had a nicely injury free career, so why risk making his first injury of the season worse?

@EntityAbyss:
We’re leasing AI for his expiring contract. Nothing else really matters. If we want to bench him and instead focus on developing our own future all-star, Rodney Stuckey, so be it.

AI getting play is a luxury for him, not so much for this team’s future.

I agree with Kevin S., Rocky Studney earned this game, he should be the focus— not Iverson.

“So yeah… why does it make sense to play AI on 3 days rest against OKC? It’s not hating on AI to say that there’s no reason for him to risk making an injury he has already suffered worse or not heal properly. He has had a nicely injury free career, so why risk making his first injury of the season worse?”

FWIW, Iverson has already had ankle and knee problems this season. He’s only started looking healthy in the last couple of weeks.

And also, FWIW, he’s been perpetually banged up for his entire career. The fact that he always plays and plays well while banged up is the backstory of the infamous “practice” rant.

“You have a knack for putting Allen Iverson in a wheel chair. You keep trying to make it seem like he’s old and that he’s lost too much of a step.”

Pistons fans have developed some weird traits after all the failed final four visits.

They’re more interested in the future of Stuckey and Amir than in the present of the team. It’s not just Iverson they don’t want to root for, but Rasheed as well. But everyone follows a team for their own reasons. What can you do?

“He’s been shooting better with the exception of the last 2 games.”

I actually thought the first half of the Chicago game was Iverson’s best as a Piston, and that was where he didn’t hit a single field goal.

The nice thing about this team for Iverson aficionados is that he really doesn’t have to score much to be highly effective.

Curry let him run point in the first half of the Chicago game for the first time since Thanksgiving, and he made it all work.

" For once stop looking at age, and look at him play."

I have looked at him play. He has obviously lost a step.

He maintained his scoring averages in Denver because they played at a faster pace, and because he got more open looks. In 2005-06, his PER was 26. Since then, he has posted 19.6, 20.0 and 17.3. That’s decline.

But that has nothing to do with the question of whether he should play with an injury. Running him ragged and risking aggravating an injury in an effort against one of the worst teams in history is not going to help us win this season.

Here’s a McCosky article that I think Boney was referring to earlier- I think it’s the first time one of the main detroit sports press people has finally stated the obvious: that small ball won’t work (it’s a nice read)
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081226/SPORTS0102/812260355/1127

@Petey:
I think what you see as long time pistons fans “weird traits” is just us knowing the limitations of our own players, who we’ve watched year after year. So that’s why we root and hope for our young players, because we know that we’ll need them to be good and perform in the playoffs if we want to have any chance at a ‘ship (i.e. we all know just Sheed+Dice is not a championship pair of bigs on there own… or rely too much on Tay when he’s matched up against an elite SF at your own peril).

Also, I’m pretty sure every player in the NBA gets “banged up” over the course of a season… There’s a difference between being “banged up” and being hurt, and if AI was hurt then there’s no reason to risk making it worse or to not let it heal-up completely.

“I have looked at him play. He has obviously lost a step.”

On the topic of “losing a step”:

Iverson looked spry last year in Denver, except on back-to-back games. He hasn’t looked spry for most of this season, (which is why the Nuggets pulled the trigger in the first place,) but he’s finally started looking healthy over the past couple of weeks.

When Iverson does “lose a step”, whether it’s happening this year or not, it’ll take two forms:

1) An inability to be effective in heavy minutes. Considering the depth of the Pistons backcourt, this shouldn’t be a problem.

2) More frequent injuries, and longer recovery time. Curry should play Chuck if he’s healthy tonight, but as he ages, he’ll be healthy less often.

Iverson will still be able to use his handle to break down the defense for at least another year or two. That’s not where “losing a step” will show up. And thus he’ll still be able to bring value onto the court, if his minutes are managed well.

He had a lower PER because he had a lower usage rate. His usage rate has dropped since he left phili because he had Carmelo on his team. Even though they played at a fast pace, he still took less shot attempts than he did in phili and didn’t have to hold the ball as much.

As for the Chicago game, I thought he played really well, but only shot poorly. I believe that he can play point, but he just needed some time to fit in. He had like 6 assists in the first quarter or something like that. He’s really getting better with this team.

As for the guy who said he’s had a pretty much injury free career. He’s had maybe the most injuries of any player in the league.
http://www.nba.com/sixers/features/iverson_injuries.html .It’s in that link and that was as of January 2005. It’s been 3 years since that. He was slowed down mostly because of the knee contusion, but it’s pretty much gone now I believe.

Also, he’s not just there for the contract. If he was, then he wouldn’t be getting that many minutes. The pistons are trying to win with him.

“I think what you see as long time pistons fans "weird traits" is just us knowing the limitations of our own players, who we’ve watched year after year. So that’s why we root and hope for our young players, because we know that we’ll need them to be good and perform in the playoffs if we want to have any chance at a ’ship (i.e. we all know just Sheed+Dice is not a championship pair of bigs on there own… or rely too much on Tay when he’s matched up against an elite SF at your own peril).”

Well, I’d just add this minor reality check:

Your best chance at winning a title in the next 10 years is with the current old fogies. When Sheed and Iverson leave town, (or get too old to compete), your best chances at a title will leave with them.

I agree we’re going to need Stuck and Spellcheck and A Third Big to show up in the playoffs if we’re going to win this year, but I don’t think folks seem to fully appreciate that all that pales next to the need to get Bubbachuck fully integrated if we’re going to win this year…

Petey – our best chance at a title in the next 10 years is with sheed and ai? They’re only going to get worse each year, so I assume that means our best chance to win is this year. Ignoring for a moment that we probably won’t have one of the five worst coaches in the league each of the next 10 years (but do now), it’s worth pointing out that three teams look absolutely ridiculous this year (bos, cle, lal). And if you assume we go into the playoffs no higher than the three seed, odds are we’d need to face each of them in a 7 game series with them having homecourt to win the title.

I guess my point is just that we seem to have an almost negligible chance of winning this year. So I struggle to see how it’s definitely going to be worse in the future, when a lot of massively positive things could happen (for example: the probability of us signing lebron james seems very, very low. But surely it’s non-zero. I’d argue that in a world where we sign him, our chance at a title would be significantly higher in the future than today. You could play this game with any of the young free agents we might sign. And taken as a group, I think it’s pretty likely we do sign someone of quality).

“Petey – our best chance at a title in the next 10 years is with sheed and ai?”

Yup.

“They’re only going to get worse each year, so I assume that means our best chance to win is this year.”

Yup. (Although Dumars could bring back Iverson and Sheed at lower wage one year contracts next year, and bring in additional free agent help as well.)

“I guess my point is just that we seem to have an almost negligible chance of winning this year.”

Disagree. I understand that’s the conventional wisdom in these parts, but I will reiterate that there is a path to competing for a title this year. It’s not the easiest path in the world, but it is a path.

It requires Iverson to get fully integrated, Stuck and Afflalo to get reps, Rip to find a role, and the problem of The Third Big to get solved somehow.

We’re kinda in the same position that Phoenix is in this year: it’s not likely to all come together in the right way, but it genuinely COULD. And that’s not something you walk away from. You play out your hand and see if you can steal a championship.

Also I have a general comment to make re: cap space hating b/c detroit sucks, we’ll never sign anyone good, have you seen the girls in miami, omg:

If my understanding of the cba is correct, a team can use cap space to take on salary in a trade, irrespective of the oft-cited salary-matching rules. While obviously acquiring someone via trade is likely to be suboptimal vis-a-vis an outright fa signing of said player (given you have to give something up or, presumably, overpay him) I still struggle to see a world where we can’t find ANY attractive way to push our payroll back towards the cap. Fine, maybe it’s not FPCB. But that doesn’t mean it’s larry hughes.

Petey – that fails to address how we are more likely to win this year than any of the next 10, which was my main point of contention. I agree that there is a non-zero probability that we win this year (and to your point, that scenario likely includes iverson getting better integrated, etc.). I also agree that in no way should we “walk away” from this year or do anything short of actively trying to get a title. But none of this addresses the relative likelihood of winning now or in the coming decade.

Forty: Don’t forget that if it’s player-player trades (as opposed to Francis to Grizz for picks), one set of salaries can only be 120% of the other. That’s one of the salary matching rules if both teams send a player (or players) in a trade.

“Your best chance at winning a title in the next 10 years is with the current old fogies. When Sheed and Iverson leave town, (or get too old to compete), your best chances at a title will leave with them.”

You, sir, haven’t seen Rasheed be the playoff non-factor that he has been since his freakout in Cleveland in ’07.

You don’t think Boozer, Bosh, Amare or Aldrige could do a better job than Rasheed?

I think your “steal a championship” comment suggests we’re both thinking about this year similarly. Winning a title this year would be an utter heist.

But why couldn’t we be the best team in the league in 2013, and not have to steal anything?

Also, I co-sign on everything Forty has said. I might as well shut up and let him do the talking! :)

Lb – does that rule apply in player-player trades where the team that is taking on more salary has cap room? I was under the impression that it did not.

I agree with Petey. I think that Rip doesn’t have to change as much, but be able to find spots when AI will attack. The whole team will do that. I think AI is getting more familiar with where Rip likes to be and they have been showing that they can work together, especially in that Utah game, when although AI had hit 30, he started passing it to Rip in good spots cuz Rip was getting hot.

As for their big situation, I honestly believe that they’re gonna need Kwame Brown. Celtics have two big men. Kevin Garnett whose wing span makes him virtually a 7’1" power forward, and Kendrick Perkins who’s a really big dude and has gotten better. The pistons don’t have people who can really compete with that except Rasheed and Kwame Brown. Kwame Brown is big enough to guard Perkins. The lakers also have two bigs in Pau Gasol and Andrew Bynum. We beat the lakers with Kwame Brown starting and doing a very good job on both Gasol and Bynum.

Defensively, Iverson is gettin better. He just has bad habits. People keep denying that he’s getting better at defense. He really is though.

Forty: Yes it does. That was my point.

Anyone aware of a feed for tonight’s game?

Entity – I thought iverson responded positively to the ball-watching criticism and played better d against chicago…that said, I didn’t watch him closely enough in denver or philly to comment too intelligently about his defensive abilities now versus then…

Listening to ESPN announcers hype Rose vs the Heat this afternoon.

Maybe someone should remind them that Hot Rod made Rose look like he belonged in the D league.

Amir sighting tonight?

Forty: Let me clarify, as long as a team is over the cap, it applies. Every team is over the cap but Memphis. I doubt we’re dealing with them (Darko in Detroit take 2!). Luxury tax threshold (around $71.15 million) where you starting having to pay the league office dollar for dollar and the salary cap (around $58.5 million) are clearly two different numbers.

“But why couldn’t we be the best team in the league in 2013, and not have to steal anything?”

You certainly could. I’m just asserting the title-winning odds are better this year.

Similarly, maybe Barbossa/Amare will lead Phoenix to a title in 2013, but I’d assert their best chance is this year as well.

“You don’t think Boozer, Bosh, Amare or Aldrige could do a better job than Rasheed?”

I don’t think you’re getting Amare or Aldridge. I think Boozer is good, but I don’t think he is particularly elite.

Elite big men don’t get moved very often, via either trade or free agency. And if someone elite does get moved, you’re not the only team that will be looking to pick them up.

I know Roscoe’s flakiness is a convenient scapegoat for your final four failures, but I’d still want him on my team. Skilled bigs aren’t a dime a dozen.

Lb – right, so it sounds like I did say it correctly. I wasn’t talking about us making a deal with memphis this year. I was referring to the common criticism of us playing for the future: that we should go all-in today, since cap space only matters if you can sign sweet fa’s (and, so the argument goes, since detroit is a hellhole, we could never attract a fa.)

My point was that in this or the next offseason, when WE have cap space, WE will be able to take on salary in a player-player trade. Hence, cap space would still be a very good thing even if ours were a city so undesirable that no one would ever come of their own volition (which, btw I don’t believe), since it can be deployed in a manner where the player has no choice.

The this year/future debate has two parts. First, are the Pistons likely to be better in the next couple of years than they are now? Second, the problem that this year, the East looks incredibly tough at the top two spots (and then there’s LA).

Petey’s point, I think, is that it’s not so clear Detroit will be better in the next year or two. Stuckey looks very promising for the future, but at the moment the team isn’t acting as if it thinks Kwame, Amir, or Maxy will be important factors in the future. Let’s imagine a team with no AI, ‘Sheed, or Dyess next year, but one Boozer-level free agent and one lesser/decent free agent. And Rip and Tay older by a year. Is it so clear that team will be better than this one if those three bigs aren’t any better/playing more? Yeah, I know, other draft picks, maybe other trades, and we can imagine some other players on the team. But unless the young bigs get significantly better, even if Stuckey becomes the next D. Wade, that plus Boozer plus another decent player may not be better than the current team.

On the other hand, Boston (despite the loss last night) and the Cavs (despite what should have been a loss last night to a 4-win team) look exceptionally good this year. On the other, other hand, I remember Detroit starting out 35-5 and not winning it all a couple of years ago. On the other, other, other hand, for the umpteenth time, we ain’t going to go far in the playoffs with smallball, even if the Cavs and Boston show more weaknesses than they already have.

Oh well, for tonight, let’s kick OKC’s butt extra hard just for leaving Seattle.

Petey – you mean skilled big men like kevin garnett, pau gasol, shaquille oneal (twice), dikembe mutumbo, rasheed wallace, etc. All of the above we’re moved to teams where the recipient made at least the nba finals and in many cases won a title. Moreover, the point of securing cap space now is, as you know, that an unusually large number of elite players, including bigs, are hitting the market this year or next.

I’m not trying to be argumentative. This is all related to my contention that we are in great shape to land a quality player who will give us a better chance of winning in the future than we currently have, given how competitive our path to a title is this year.

Forty: We’re in great shape via free agency, not via trading. That’s the thing. It’s very hard to pull a rabbit out of a hat, and dump a bad player for a great one. You may dump long-term salary (Nazr) for less problematic salary (Brezec & Herrmann), but rarely do you basically steal players unless it’s Kevin McHale handing it over to Danny Ainge. Only once in a while is a guy like Mitch Kupchak genuinely stupid enough to trade Caron Butler for Kwame Brown.

Davidson could just secure cap space to save money.

I am sure Guardian isn’t doing all that great these days.

It is not monopoly money that the Pistons are playing with.

The ideal Piston trade would be a two players for one deal. Detroit has a lot of talent/potential in the 8-11 slots. But it’s hard to get a top notch player for two good players, because you only have to start five and play eight, and the top notch ones are the hardest to get.

“Petey – you mean skilled big men like kevin garnett, pau gasol, shaquille oneal (twice), dikembe mutumbo, rasheed wallace, etc.”

Sure. An elite big man gets moved every couple of years.

But, again, you’re not going to be only team trying to land that fish if and when it bites. There will be many other hooks in the water along with yours.

And the odds say you don’t get the big fish, settle on someone of Boozer/Brand level talent instead, and watch other teams play in late May and June.

The point is not to be a pessimist, but instead to note that rebuilding to the elite in the NBA requires quite a bit of luck, and that this year is where your hopes are best put at the moment. One in the hand, and all…

“I’m not trying to be argumentative.”

Arguments that lead down the road to clarity are a good thing.

" I was under the impression that it did not."

It does not. The 125% rule only applies to teams over the cap.

Kevin: Every team is over the soft cap but Memphis. It’s a rule in the CBA that works in principle only, not practice.

Mike: Really? Seriously? Not monopoly money? Davidson is worth over $4 billion. He’s worth almost double Mark Cuban. He’s definitely one of the 250 richest people in the world. Plenty of NBA owners aren’t even billionaires at all. A $75 million dollar per year pay roll isn’t even 3% of the guy’s net worth. He probably makes most of the Pistons yearly payroll off of money in the bank accumulating interest.

Happy Holidays everyone, lets get a win tonight. :D

Lb – first, mchale didn’t “hand over” anything to ainge. He got an top-shelf, cheap, young big, plus other young players, plus picks, plus (I think) some cap relief (wasn’t theo’s expiring or some such included…I forget). I think that trade was remarkably fair for two teams with completely different goals (win now vs win later).

I agree with you that we’re better off with fa’s than a trade. I don’t buy into the “good players will NEVER sign with detroit” meme. And generally free agency is preferable to a trade, since you don’t have to give other assets up.

But I do think we could still help ourselves significantly via trade. We’re in somewhat of a unique situation. How many teams with a “let’s win a title in the next year or two” time frame – ie good teams – have ever had this much cap space? The luxury tax being 20m or so higher than the cap creates a system where bad teams are the most likely to be under the cap (since good teams are incented to re-sign people up to the tax threshold, to keep the wins coming). Could we get a great but slightly overpaid player on a bad team in a salary dump? Absolutely. You’d rather sign him as a fa and not have to overpay, but these kinds of trades happen all the time in baseball. And given our unique position as good team with cap space, we are poised to act like a good baseball team (who always have “cap space”).

Thanks for clarifying kevin s. I thought that was the case.

Let’s beat us some thunder!

Kwame Brown chose Detroit over the other 29 teams :)

I don’t think that it is the case that no elite FA would sign in detroit because it is an undesirable city. I do think that all things being equal an elite FA would very likely pick another place like Miami, Boston, NY, LA etc. However, all other things are not equal. LA and Boston won’t have the cap space and we will have a better team than Miami and NY. Therefore, we should be able to land someone on our list.

As for Forty’s trade plan – I think it is a less than ideal scenario. If we are under the salary cap because both Sheed and AI have left, then we have significantly fewer assets to trade. We would have to trade several smaller salaries or a larger and smaller salary like Rip and Amir to make it work. That seems like a lateral move unless you are trading for LBJ.

Colin – but you wouldn’t. We’d be under the cap and not subject to any salary-matching trade rules. We could acquire salary in a deal for nothing. If teams trade pau gasol for cap relief in a year (kwame’s expiring), surely they’d also be interested in cap relief TODAY (a salary dump a la new york yankees).

Clearly signing bosh outright is the best plan…just arguing that cap space is good for more than one thing.

anyone got a link to the game?

Forty: Our assets over the summer are: Rip, Tay, Stuckey (untouchable, right?), Max, Amir, Afflalo, Sharpe and Bynum. Any combo of two of the first 4 would gut us. The fact that we’ll be under the cap does us no good. We gonna get someone like Kaman strictly for picks?

Forty, yeah my post kind of missed your point. I guess I had trouble imagining trading a draft pick for Max contract. If the Grizz would trade Gasol for Kwame, I guess anything is possible. I just have a hard time seeing us pull somethign off like that for an elite player next year. Nevertheless, your larger point stands.

Lb – yes adding in someone like afflalo. And you take a guy who maybe makes more than he’s worth, but is still very good. Trading valuable assets for valuable assets is not a salary dump. I’ve been clear that what I’m suggesting is a salary-dump where we are dumped on.

Forty: Afflalo is pretty highly valued here, I don’t think the rest of the league agrees, though his contract is peanuts for two seasons. We don’t really have anything to offer people besides Rip, Tay or Max if Stuckey’s off limits anyway.

Colin: The Grizz didn’t trade Gasol just for Kwame. That’s a pretty gross simplification of the trade. The Grizz got two future first-round picks, Aaron McKie’s expiring contract, Javaris Crittenton, who they flipped earlier in the month for a Wizards future first rounder and Kwame’s expiring contract. Pau is making like $50 million over this year and the next two. It’s kind of an obscene contract for a notoriously soft player. Pau’s brother and insane cap space isn’t a bad return.

anyone watchin the game online? got a link?

First I don’t agree that gasol is overpaid. He’s excellent, a legit max player.

And if you’re suggesting we couldn’t make a package equal to draft picks + player of crittendon’s quality + salary dump (I.e. NOT sending them a player), you’re crazy. And there are variations where you give a player less than crittendon but get a player less than pau.

You keep saying we have a dearth of player assets I’d trade. You’re right. The asset we have is financial – we can take on salary. Saying that we wouldn’t want to throw in tay and rip is missing the point.

anyone watchin the game online? got a link?

Yea and the Pistons played like turds in the first quarter.

Just found a feed. It’s choppy but better than nothing.
http://www.iddaliyim.tr.gg/Canli-Mac-izle-_-salon-3.htm?PHPSESSID=5e851c74be3b1998f0bde3da1a65a

Forty: Kwame made way too much money last year. Getting that contract to take off the books in the offseason was a huge appeal. Marc Gasol, Rudy Gay and OJ Mayo is hardly a bad start to the rebuilding. Sure it will take them 2-3 years, but I’d much rather spend $17 million letting Chris Wallace pick a boatload of young guns than put it all on into Pau Gasol. Pau Gasol was 0-12 in playoff games before he got paired up with Kobe. That’s all I need to know. If you’re paying a guy $17 million to LEAD your team, and that’s his output, then you have a problem. Pau with LA is way more valuable than Pau in Memphis.

Besides Afflalo and Maxiell the Pistons look awful tonight.

The Thunder are 1-13 on the road.

Pistons should beat them by 20 easy????

Right I think you’re missing what I mean by take on salary or salary dump. We don’t need to send an expiring. We’ll be under the cap, so salaries won’t have to match. We can give immediate contract expiration by taking on more salary than we give.

Not real impressed by the play tonight…

LB: Uhhhh yes that was an oversimplification. That’s what happens when you squeeze a comment out at work. You’re right that other considerations were involved, but the realit is that kwame’s contract is what made that trade happen. I think that was a somewhat ridiculous trade regardless of all the add-ons, but you are welcome to disagree. It was really just a throw-away comment. I was trying to see things from Forty’s pov.

FSN+ is the devil

Colin: I love the trade for Memphis. Pau never got them anywhere as the leader. He wasn’t going to. Cut your losses and start fresh. They’re a couple years off, but their foundation is great. They have greater financial flexibility than any other franchise and Mayo and Gasol are under contract for a long time. They’ll resign Rudy Gay, no question.

Forty: Unless you’re looking for Eddy Curry, Mikki Moore or Morris Peterson this off-season, I don’t really know of other teams who really benefit from salary dumps. Maybe Kaman, but I really doubt the Clips hand him over for no player in return. Whereas Camby is almost 35, Kaman is almost 27. They might be comparable in production, but not value.

I’m irate! That was one of the weakest defense I’ve seen them play all year. Letting them pull up for shots and then boxing out is not called defense.

I’m losing my mind watching them — we should be blowing these scrubs out the water.

what channel is fsn+? anyone else with another feed…last one gives error message

Lb – sweet, let’s get the thunder

wutsurbeef, it depends on what cable provider you have. Check the link at the top of the page. I don’t know if you really want to watch this garbage though.

YAY! I found a link that works:
http://www.iddaliyim.tr.gg/Canli-Mac-izle-_-salon-3.htm

I’m at the game behind the pistons bench and can legitimately say michael curry called the jeff green inbounds pass and informed the team…I was stunned. Nice coaching mc!

and this one:
http://www.selfcast.com/batterypower

three cheers for a token Amir appearance!

Forty: Say, “Max eats babies!” really loudly so we can hear it through the mics! :D

Forty, we’ll expect a full report at the end of the game of the demeanor on the bench.

My man crush on amir is decidedly unhealthy…I’m the tool in the #25 jersey telling wilcox not to bring that weak shit to aj’s kitchen

Will Amir start the 4th quarter.

Forty: You are my hero.

Amir did a good job on Wilcox, for what its worth. Anyway, nowadays every time I watch us play, I’m freshly surprised/disappointed by how oddly our talent fits together.

Why does AI always go baseline? He keeps running out of room. I’d like to see him split the double a couple times.

Man, the Thunder don’t even seem like a real team. We’d better not lose.

Also, thanks Gabe for the links!
AI sure makes some difficult shots. I hope Kander can work his magic and keep him healthy and injury-free! I really want AI to succeed and do his thing as a Piston.

Michael curry is giving amir a little lesson. I think curry could have used a few amir lessons in his career.

Ugh, AI’s passing is horrible in this game. Had Amir for an easy oop and just threw it away.

8 minutes so far and Amir has touched the ball once on offense.

Trade Amir now

Qd – he telegraphed it :( I was ready to go b-a-n-a-n-a-s

AI is freezing out Amir?

corr.

Should have said hasn’t touched the ball once.

Zero denada

AI is on fire though.

That’s the AI I’ve seen a handful of times this season in the red, white and blue.

Amir with the I’m-taller-than-everyone-else awkward hook! Kwame never would have caught that pass.

What an awful call on amir

Remember when Joe Smith wore teal? Yeah….

sigh this teams got a lotta choke in it.

Forty: If I see someone’s head explore I’ll know it’s you.

I like how curry didn’t call timeout during the run and had them slow the offense down and only shoot as the shot clock expired. Really sealed the deal.

16-2 run to close out the 4th quarter. AWESOME.

Durant is one guy that Tayshaun may never block.

Durant has been fired up going into the timeout huddles…he’s making the wade stink lip face

This 4th quarter might have been Curry’s finest achievement.

Great feed by Stuckey!!! That should be the AI-to-Amir-for-a-dunk play!

Amir is the only guy we have that defend in the paint.

unfortunately he ran out of gas after playing 13 straight minutes.

I still wouldn’t have taken him out.

Does Joe Smith ever miss?

curry should put Amir in on defense now

Yes smith misses if he is guarded.

So if we lose this, does Curry get fired?

I haven’t seen Joe Smith miss a shot in three years.

If we win can we fire Curry anyways?

OHHH SNAP!

shoulda been an and-1 with a foul on Jeff Green

Sweet!

That was pretty cool, even if it’s against the thunder

Finally AI is AI!

Yay, game winnaar from AI!

@Quick Darshan:

Yeah, when Joe Smith was on the bulls it seemed like when he played against us, his jumper suddenly became 99.99% cash.

Awful defense.

Gabe, he didn’t miss when ha played with Cleveland either.

Wow.

…aaaand sheed almost blows it.

Way to get wiped out on that screen, Sheed. Thanks for coming out, though.

Nice shot by Iverson

Now the Pistons get to play some NBA teams after playing D league teams for the last three weeks.

I still think we should trade AI or Sheed to a team that is looking to clear cap space… I know we can’t just trade AI, yet.. but they should consider it.

@Quick Darshan:
Damn, I’d blocked it out of my memory that Joe played for the Cav’s. It’s kinda weird- if I only watched Pistons games, and never watched a single other, I would think Joe Smith was an all-time great.

I wonder what the AI haters have to say now. I know they’re around. I know they’ll say something. Earlier in this topic (first couple of posts), I talked about AI’s age. I know the haters will try to blame him for the thunder coming back even though it’s not his fault, and I know they’ll try to ignore that game winner. The only thing I wanna know is, how are the haters gonna get about doing this.

AI sure isn’t worth $20 million a year. Maybe $10 million tops.

Tomorrow the Pistons get to play a team with some NBA guards.

Lets see who Iverson tries to guard tomorrow.

My guess is that Curry will put Iverson on Ridnour. He sure won’t have Iverson try and guard Redd.

EntityAbyss,

I’ll continue to dislike AI for as long as he is on this team. He is a good basketball player, not a good teammate.

If the right trade is out there to dump his ball hogging ass, I’d make the move to dump him on one of the lowlife teams in the East or West looking for cap space next season.

AI would look good in a Clipper jersey…perhaps even a Thunder if they had any talent to trade

@Entity:

You don’t have to wonder- an “AI hater” would say, even though AI shot well and hit the clutch bucket, he played 39 minutes against OKC and sported an impressive +0 for the game. He chipped in 3 boards, 3 assists, and 2 steals, but that was somewhat countered by having 4 Turnovers and 2 of his shots blocked. And for his scoring- he scored 22 points on 17 shots, which is really nothing to write home about—> and think if he hadn’t shot 9-17… He had a decent game, but definitely nothing special, if a few of those crazy hard shots don’t fall his decent game turns pretty quickly into a pretty crappy one.

If it hadn’t been for Amir defense in the paint while he was out there Westbrook would have put over 20 and we would have lost.

Trade Amir now.

“The only thing I wanna know is, how are the haters gonna get about doing this.”

I don’t “hate” any Piston. Iverson is a talented offensive player.

Mike,

I think the reason Amir hasn’t been playing lately is because he’s been exhausted from all the slurping and reach arounds you’ve been giving him.

jesus dude…

I’m Boney, and I approve this message.

Yeah I think the same thing I’ve always thought about AI. He’s a sweet offensive player and one of the most fun guys to cheer for in the league. He’s also underrated on the character front – he had a hug for every kid on the court pregame. And he threw his warmup shoes to the girl sitting next to me.

But he’s an absymmally bad pick and roll defender and prone to low efficiency chuck-fests…if that’s hating I guess I’m a hater…

AI shot the highest field goal percentage out of everyone on the team. Stuckey had 12 points on 14 shots. Preince had 16 points on 15 shots and Hamilton had 8 points on 13 shots. Rasheed had 12 points on 11 shots.

You can talk about +/- all you want, but he’s not the reason the thunder came back. Matter fact, he’s the reason the pistons brought the lead to 14. He had maybe 14 points in that 4th quarter. Yea he had turnovers, but he more than up for it, by taking over in that early part of the 4th quarter. Bad pick and roll defense and rebounding is what brought the thunder back, and he finished the game with that last 2.

He played within the offense and knew when to be him. If he had a bad night, I wanna know who on the pistons had a good night.

Entity – I didn’t think anyone but amir played well…afflalo also had some nice d in spurts

we can talk about +/- all we want?

I’ll put it more blunt – Allen Iverson is shooting 42% from the field on the season. Worst of all the starters.

How’s that for statistics?

Was hamilton hurt?

Also, this has been posted on before, but the palace is REALLY quiet these days. Wow. The whole place used to scream “sheed” every time he caught it. It’s a soft muffle now. People barely applauded the loose ball sequence that culminated with afflalo winning possession and calling the to. I was underwhelmed.

Finally broke the tech streak, w00t w00t!

Is any nba player actually worth what they make? Ridnour is a real nba guard, but westbrook isn’t after you witnessed them back to back straight shitted on the entire defense dunks?? ai probably won’t be on redd because he gives up about 5 inches to him.. some people hahaha

@Entity:
I should have been clearer, I wrote “AI hater” in quotes because I don’t think anyone HATES him. So yeah, like Forty said nobody had a very good game, other than Amir in limited time. But if you don’t think AI’s defense was a hefty part of why we struggled to beat OKC, then we must have been watching different games. On top of that, his shooting came through for us today, but he has a career shooting % of .426- he’s not gonna shoot 9-17 everyday (not trying to hate, but thats just a statistical truth). So IMO, it’s crazy not to be a little worried about the fact that even on a night when AI was hitting a bunch of hard shots, it wasn’t enough for us to pull away from the OKC Thunder!

Ai gets no credit. He got no credit against Utah for gettin Rip Hamilton going and making it a game dropping 38. Instead he got criticized for not taking the last shot in the first overtime and insteads passing it to Rodney Stuckey for a wide open shot which was a good idea, but Stuckey didn’t make it. Then this game, he does take the last shot, makes it, but people ignore.

Yes, he had turnovers, had the ball more today. He’s playing good defense, and he’s playing the pick and roll good. Most of the time they trapped Westbrook and the times they didn’t it was because the center would come late. Also, low efficincy chuck-fests? He was hittin all those shots. He shot over 50%. Yea, those were tough shots, but he was making them. When he missed like 2 of them, then he started going to other people and attacking the basket. He got to the freethow line twice in the 4th quarter. More than anyone else on the pistons, except for McDyess, did for the whole game.

The consensus is Amir was the only one to have a good game? Wow. Just wow.

Entity-

Relax dude. Clearly the whole team sucked. AI played just OK. Seems like you just want to pick a fight. I suggest you try after a game when AI actually plays exceptionally well.

It’s kinda hard to not play good defense against Desmond Mason. Mason is a very poor man’s Gerald Wallace with an Allen Iverson-esque mid to long range game. More turnovers than assists is not a good game when you play for Detroit.

50%+ tonight, is still 42% on the season. He shot above and beyond his norm tonight against guys who aren’t particularly great at defense.

When the team is what, somewhere near 25th in the league in rebounding it hurts having a 42% low efficiency chucker on the court. I’m starting to realize why I was once happy that Matt Geiger vetoed the trade to Detroit back in the day…

Afflalo, Maxiell, Amir and Dyess were the only ones to play well. There’s something that they have in common but I can’t put my finger on it.

Amir had 4 fouls in 13 minutes.

Even Elden Campbell thinks that’s excessive.

Entity – I said he was prone to low-efficiency chuck-fests. The implication being that while this was a reasonably efficient game, it’s not the norm.

Also, wasn’t he guarding westbrook on the consecutive pnrs that led to uncontested dunks? Some of that’s terrible help d, but ai has to get a hat tip at least. He’s an atrocious defender, and I think he’d admit it. Remember when he first came and said in the presser “you know what I can do on offense, and I’ll just do the best I can on the other end.” The second coming of dumars he is not.

and another thing, AI and Rip need to lose the arm sleeves…

all these god damn accessories make the Pistons look like the damn Denver Nuggets

Actually, I’m going to defend Amir on the fouls for once. I didn’t think any of them were stupid except he seems to get an obligatory one for pushing with his forearm every time he checks in. One of his fouls stopped yet another Westbrook highlight dunk.

@Boney:
You, sir, win this thread. Your prize? 10,000 ponies.

This was timed perfectly.

Wow, the 42% shooting thing. I love that. He shot 42% percent, because he was on a team that needed him to shoot. He was doubled and tripled at times on philadelphia. There was more asked of him. He couldn’t have shot such a high percentage on phili where they needed him to shoot more. If you don’t believe, look at his stats on denver. he was on average about 9-19 per game onm denver last year. He wasn’t asked to do as much, and his field goal percentage went up. He shot 46%. As for this year, he was shooting 40% because of the knee contusion which bothered him for weeks and the fact that he had to get aquainted with detroit. With the exception, of the 2 games before this, he has been shooting 50% lately,, including a game where he shot 62%.

Lb – we get it. You don’t like amir. Per sucks. John hollinger is stupid, as is all statistical basketball analysis. We’d be better off with dalembert or eric gordon.

Nobody wants to read these little snipes. Your post could easily have been worded “eh, I didn’t think amir had a great game. Even though he was on the court for the big run, he was also on it as we gave some of the lead back and committed too many fouls. I know I always hate on him, but this wasn’t his best performance.”

Then boney couldn’t have even done his /lawyerboy’d!

Forty: STFU. I’m just saying everyone is slobbering Amir so hard they didn’t give any dap to Tay or Dice and that’s horribly uncool. Buy a clue.

actually iverson was outta the game on them back to back slams by westbrook, i believe it was stuckey on the pick defense on first one, and he split 2 defenders on the 2nd one, none of which were ai, but you guys can keep acting like hes the only defensive liability on this team.. i wish someone was keeping track of all the times late in the game when AI is subbed out late in the game and the other team still scores a hoop. It was 2 for 2 again tonight!

@Entity:
Just curious, for posterity— are you an AI fan first, Pistons fan second? Not being a dick or dogging you, this community needs to welcome the AI fans (like Petey, who has proven his worth here) whether we like it or not. But it’ll help us put your comments into perspective. If you’re an AI fan first and foremost, I can understand how you’d be pissed at the “haters”.

@LB:
Amir Johnson is your new bicycle.

Lb – have you ever wondered why multiple people on this board post parodies of you with “/lawyerboy’d” I can tell you it’s not because they’re cowed by your insight. But thanks for the swear words.

@Entity:

I’m not sure if you care, but nobody has said that AI had a “bad” game, but most people are being hesitant calling this a “good” game. You’re acting like he dropped 50 on the Celtics at the Garden, all the while, we’re here griping about his shot selection.

Here’s why most of us aren’t showering him in praise: HE SCORED 22 POINTS ON 17 SHOTS AGAINST THE OKC THUNDER, ONE OF THE WORST NBA TEAMS OF ALL-TIME.

I will happily eat crow if/when AI lights up the Celtics or the Cav’s in the playoffs, but I don’t think that my eating crow is in order after AI has a reasonably efficient game against the 3-27 Thunder (in December), in an embarrassingly narrow win.

Aifan – was he out for the two slams? Comment retracted, I thought it was AI.

Entity,

He’s shooting 42% this season homeboy.

Amir Johnson is the worst 4th big man off the bench in the history of the NBA. Bring back Dale Davis.

/LawyerBoy’d

Kwame Brown deserves all the minutes that Amir has played this season simply for the fact that he’s a no name center, and all teams with no name centers have won championships recently:

1. Kendrick Perkins
2. Fabricio Oberto
3. That’s it

I know my thought process works, don’t argue with it or I will throw a temper tantrum and start talking about the Clippers.

Regards,
LB

there you go Forty…

hopefully your girlfriend is hired to coach the Pistons soon

http://www.detroitbadboys.com/archives/2008-12-26/pistons-host-thunder/#comment-157809

I hope that wasn’t some sort of “in your face, you’re talking bad about Amir too” type of comeback..

you haven’t replied to my comments since I typed about your mom and you got all puffy chested and wanted to fight

Talking about someone’s mom is childish even for a basketball blog.

Ahhh typical LawyerBoy. Pissing off yet another top DBB community member (not including myself in “top”, just saying how valuable Forty is to this community). And when LB’s called out in a non-insulting, man-to-man manner, he replies with “shut the fuck up” and “buy a clue” and other insulting nonsense.

What is your deal, man? Can’t you just respect the fact that there are a ton of us here with statistically-based appreciation, respect and excitement about what Amir Johnson has done and could do for this organization? Does it mean you have to whine about it and toss in quips that NO ONE wants to hear?

Can’t you go back to what you did before you pissed the community off and left to hibernate? You know, smart analysis and intelligent comments that weren’t all about arguing and correcting people and i-told-you-so’s and the rest?

What is your problem?

@QD:
As childish as wanting to fight about it in the real world?

QD,

If I had the time (and patience) to go back and find what I typed about your boy’s mom you would realize that it was rather tame. It was more of an insinuation (I believe) of a sarcastic remark than anything else. The comments following it made it out to be far worse than what it was.

Oh well.

Don’t make me fight you… if you talked about my mom to my 5’4 face, I would slap you right in the mouth!

/Lawyerboy’d

We coin-flipped a team that is on pace for an 8-74 record. If each team hits their free throws in accordance with their historical expectations, we lose.

Don’t expect us to throw around credit like it’s confetti after that one.

kevin s.,

… or chalk?

/everyone who slurps LeBron’d

Boney, I never take mom comments personally from people who have never met my mom. What offends me is the laziness. We all provide tons of material on here to be made fun of. Mom jokes are taking the easy way out. It’s like settling for jumpers.

Amir rules.

That will be all for the moment, carry on.

I actually think Amir played nice D on Wilcox, hustling as he always does. The guy can do the little things, but saying he was the only player who had a good game, I mean, wouldn’t we expect a huge loss to the Nuggets if someone said the same thing about Chris Andersen? These are guys who don’t score.

Giving out a proverbial game ball to a guy who had double the number of fouls as points is ridiculous. This is basketball, not soccer. When a wins 90-88 and you have 2 points, 3 boards and 4 fouls, you can’t possibly be the only one who had a good game. It can be a nice game, and it was for Amir, but seriously, what is that?

QD,

It was a sarcastic remark, I wasn’t even serious about it… I could care less if anyone would’ve responded to it, but the way LB responded to it made it all the more humorous.

I realize that reading it in text and actually hearing the sarcasm in my voice are 2 different things.

Of course it was lazy, but had we been going back and forth with put downs I would’ve never resorted to momma jokes.

Don’t you think its possible that goes according to the expectations of each guy? You cant look at a win, a barely one at that, against the worst team in the league and expect people to praise a starter.

Kriz,

Amir Johnson is the greatest NBA player to ever come straight from high school.

Regards,
Mike

You forgot to complain about the lack of touches and demand that the team trade him.

Don’t look now, the Marco Belinelli slurpfest is about the begin.

Even when OKC came back, did anyone actually think the Pistons were going to lose? I found their comeback mildly annoying.

haha Paul M.

my bad

I think we all should band together and vote Amir Johnson for the All Star Game.

Let’s put our difference aside and vote Amir into the All Star Game.

Lemme explain myself a little more. I don’t think that AI had a really good game either. The thing I noticed though, is that a lot of people wanted change, but were so quick to blame AI for a lot of things. At first, I accepted it, because AI is a bad defender, but I feel that a lot of the things said about him is a little messed up. He keeps being talked about for career stats instead of season stats. His usage rate in Philadelphia was so high, that his field goal percentage would have to suffer and he would have more turnovers.

When he went to Denver however, he shot the same field goal percentage as Kobe Bryant (last year), and Kobe was on a better team too. He shot 46% last year which is pretty good, given the fact that he was still the best plaayer on the team and relatively, still asked to do a little more than other players. He didn’t chuck last year, and denver had it’s highest +/- as a team when he played the point. His usage rate went down and his field goal percentage went up. Denver had no defense though, so he wasn’t used to playing defense.

This year I noticed that he has been better as a defensive player, but instead people recognizing that, they blame him for everything, when a lot of it is due to team defense such as pick and roll defense. I am not saying that his defense is great, but it’s obviously getting better, and some of the blame should go to team defense and other players. Actually, he gets taken out of some plays, and the point guard would still pass whoever is guarding him. Russell Westbrook was getting those dunks over Stuckey, and a lot of his points were due to bad pick and roll defense and sometimes he blew by Rodney Stuckey. I’m not saying he ain’t blow by AI, but not all 14 points he scored were on AI or because of AI. Same thing with Chris Duon a few weeks ago, when 13 of hios25 points,, AI was getting picked and Rasheed or Maxiel or whoever was late to close out. ONly AI got the blame though. Same thing with Devin Harris.

As for his shooting percentage, although he’s currently shootin 42%, that’s the case because he was shooting 38% earlier in the season. He had a knee contusion in training camp with Denver and that had affected his speed and shooting. That’s why he was shooting poorly and at times not even taking much shots. He was for the most part though, taking shots that he usually makes. He was missing lay-ups at times. he wasn’t chucking. He was just missing bad shots.

For a guy who was shooting 38% after 12 games or so, to now be at 42% means that he has been shooting way better lately. This game is not out of the norm. His knee is getting better, and he’s actually been shooting good the past couple of games. The 2 games before today were the only games in like a big stretch where he was shooting over 45%^, a lot of which he was shooting over 50%.

I don’t blame you all. After all, a lot of people here at times don’t like Rasheed Wallace. I don’t argue, because I feel that as a Center, Rasheed plays too much like a shooting guard instead of being in the post where’s he’s very good, and also he’s getting too many technicals. I don’t argue when ya blame Michael Curry, because I feel that when Kwame Brown was in the line-up, the pistons were a very good team. They beat the lakers, Spurs, and Cleveland with him, and only lost to other teams, because they came out with low energy. Iverson, however, is trying. He’s not taking bad shots. He was just missing them earlier in the season. He’s still learning, and he’s becoming way better at defense.

Can blogs trade commenters?

@LawyerBoy:
You’re knocking a guy for saying “I didn’t think anyone but amir played well”? You replied like he said “everyone else sucked, Amir, our golden child, played with his head to the heavens and dunked on a million Shaqs repeatedly”.

That’s beside the point== no comments on insulting a guy after he called you out? You defend your quip on Amir, but not on being insulting and anti-social?

I’d like to be traded to the blog where only QD, Matt Watson, Mike Payne, Forty, and any other non-slurper of AI can talk about the Pistons and not be forced to talk about the Clippers, Samuel Dalembert or the fact that the 76ers would possibly consider trading Thad Young to Detroit.

Let me know when that blog exists… hopefully when my contract is up after the 2009 season

even though Mike Payne didn’t include me in this year’s DBB Fantasy League, he’s still my boy…

YOU’RE MY BOY BLUE

QD: I thought our inability to contain them was annoying. When you said earlier that Maxiell (along w/Afflalo, Amir and Dice) played a good game, what did Maxiell exactly do in your eyes? I don’t remember him catching my attention.

MP: It’s one thing when someone wants to talk as me or whatever with their cute little /LawyerBoy’d. It’s another thing when someone wants to tell me what I’m saying. At this point, I don’t really believe you care about what my point of view is/was.

“Even when OKC came back, did anyone actually think the Pistons were going to lose? I found their comeback mildly annoying.”

Word.

@LawyerBoy:
“At this point, I don’t really believe you care about what my point of view is/was.”

I would have, if you didn’t spend the vast majority of your comments since your return making yourself look like an asshole. I genuinely felt that you were a top notch commenter here, one of the absolute best, you helped make this community what I love. You’re a different commenter now, with different motives and zero semblance to what you once were. Would I take back the old LB? Certainly. But he’s long gone, no way he’s coming back.

Now there’s just a whiney, quippy little kid that chimes in with nothing more than negativity. Might be worthwhile to change your name, its a shame on the history that the old guy with the name “LawyerBoy” has left here.

I loved that fourth quarter.

AI & Afflalo in the backcourt. Tay and two bigs in the frontcourt. The ball in AI’s hands. That’s the stuff.

My only complaint: why the hell wouldn’t Curry play Afflalo on Durant in the fourth? He played Afflalo on Durant a bit in the second quarter, and got good results.

The whole trick to coaching this team is to put Afflalo on the other team’s star wingman in the fourth, but Curry hasn’t been with the program since Thanksgiving.

Before Thanksgiving, he had Afflalo on Kobe and LeBron in the fourth, and we won both games.. But since then, we’ve watched repeated games where he wouldn’t put Afflalo on Granger, Joe Johnson, or now Durant in the fourth. This ain’t rocket science…

Petey: AI dazzled me in the 4th. That’s AI being AI, right? Just freewheelin’ and such? He just looked so comfortable and his shot was so effortless and beautiful. Win or lose, I’m glad we traded for him. Watching him play like that is a joy.

And as I keep repeating, Iverson’s minutes need to be more limited.

I loved the fourth quarter because the ball was in Iverson’s hands to break down the defense and shoot or pass.

But during the first three quarters, Curry went back to his perverse “keep Iverson away from the ball 100% of the time” offense. If you’re going to keep him off the ball, keep him on the bench. Play Iverson 33 minutes instead of 39, and give him the ball a higher percentage of plays when he’s on the court.

His handle is what makes a team better.

LB, with Maxiell it was more a matter of energy. The team looked so sluggish that when he started running around he looked like a blur.

He had a nice post move and shot a jumper with confidence that I was surprised didn’t go in. He played good pick and roll defense even though he couldn’t contend Durant’s jumper (who can?) when he had to switch on him.

What I like about Maxiell’s game is that he’s the ONLY ONE on the team that posts up near the basket. People talk about Sheed posting up more but it’s pointless if he’s just going to set up fifteen feet from the basket and shoot fadeaways. Dyess sets up ten feet away and either fades or spins baseline for a reverse layup. I just love how Maxiell races to the hoop in transition and sets up.

“But during the first three quarters, Curry went back to his perverse "keep Iverson away from the ball 100% of the time" offense. If you’re going to keep him off the ball, keep him on the bench. Play Iverson 33 minutes instead of 39, and give him the ball a higher percentage of plays when he’s on the court.”

I completely disagree. AI is more dangerous coming off a screen and catching the ball on the move. His defender is at such a disadvantage because he’s chasing and the defense as a whole can’t set the D for him. I don’t mind him running the pick and roll every now and then, but I’d prefer him putting the pressure on the defense with off the ball movement. This is why the Cavs are so much better. Lebron doesn’t have to create from a standstill anymore now that they have a better PG and Mike Brown finally figured out how to get the most out of Lebron.

(side note to QD: your name link points to http://on-screenwriting.blogpot.com/ not http://on-screenwriting.blogspot.com/ there is a big difference without that little “s” is blogspot… )

:)

QD: I remember Max had one bucket, I feel like it was a put back or something. I hope 2 months from now that Curry figures out what to do with the rotations. Maxiell is the most important guy off the bench besides Dice, to me. That’s a good point about Sheed, but I feel like he’s been pretty accurate.

Don’t look now, but Boston might just lose 2 in a row. Down 6 with 4:23 to go (GS ball) and Ray Allen just fouled out.

Qd – I agree. I like him dominating the ball when we’ve got the defensive group out there (amir, afflalo, etc.) Otherwise I think his best use is running around off screens, catching, and driving while his man is still off balance.

I do think it’s not useful to have iverson sit off the ball in the corner though. He is such a bad three point shooter, it does nothing for spacing. I want him in motion every time down the floor. He costs you each possession on the other end, so don’t put him in the corner where you know his man is going to help off him and concede the three. That’s wasting him on o and paying for him on d.

I agree with forty. He shouldn’t have to create for himself that much when there’s a lot of scorers out. Him and Rip should set picks for themselves, and make it easier for themselves. they’re both good shooters.

MP, thanks for the catch. I thought I fixed that.

Celtics getting smoked by the Warriors

this truly is, a night of magic

KG engages in shenanigans with another opposing team’s guard. The target tonight was Marco Belinelli. Belinelli’s team gets the win though. Sad face for KG.

For more on the story, we go to Andre Iguodala …

http://realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/56198/20081226/iguodala_latest_to_speak_on_bostons_on_court_actions/

+1 other ai for saying boston doesn’t have the intimidation factor of “those detroit teams.”

-1 michael curry for making him imply the past tense

It seems like after every single game there are several calls for Iverson to play less. The majority clammoring that he had a horrible game no matter what happened. My God.

He hit the game winning shot. He was the only starter that shot over 50%. He had more rebounds than Stuckey and Hamilton. The starting PG only had one more assist than he did. He led the team in steals. Oh my God he had FOUR TURNOVERS. Oh shit, so did Stuckey. Wait. What’s that? Oh that’s right to be a Piston fan you have to love Stuckey unconditionally and hate Iverson. My bad. So, why should he play less based on this game? Because he had the best game of the guard trio? Because he had the best game period? C’mon.

After the last game everyone was ready to vote Stuckey an All-Star and MVP, and MVP next year as well. The guy takes 25 shots and people are like “no, it’s still in the confines of the gameplan.” Really, being the point guard and not finding shots for the other four guys on the court – that’s within the confines of the gameplan? For every starter to besides Stuckey to have a bad game? Even when Iverson found a way to involve his team in tune of 8 assists in the first half of that game? OK. Love Stuckey. Hate Iverson. It’s the Piston fan code.

Also, in terms of Amir. LB wins. Everyone else loses. I like Amir. He’s been one of my favorite Pistons for the last couple years. But 4 fouls – 3 rebounds – 2 points – 12 minutes is not good. Yes, his man to man defense was decent – but the “little things” and +/- cannot justify that kind of a line. He’s not playing well. He hasn’t all season really. Maybe if he was getting McDyess minutes from the onset of the season that’d be different. But right now, he’s not a good player.

Bottomline – Pistons won, but again only one starter shot over 40%. Maxiel got less than six minutes. Kwame played mysteriously short minutes for him having played at all. It was sloppy and we were lucky to have won against the worst team in the league – bar none by far. This was one of the worst games yet – and about 80% of the criticism in the posts on here are directed at the guy that had the best game. Oh right, it’s Iverson’s bad defense that almost lost it, even when he’s not in the game and it’s Stuckey palying bad defense, that’s still Iverson. Somehow.

3. BLUE COLLAR – Amir Johnson didn’t play in the first half and didn’t block a shot in the game. He played 13 minutes and had more fouls (four) than rebounds (three). But from an intangibles standpoint, Johnson’s effort was off the charts, giving the Pistons a frenetic factor that had been sorely lacking through the first two and a half quarters.

"I thought as great as Allen was, the player of the game was Amir Johnson, by far," Curry said. "I thought he was the player of the game. I thought he came in and gave us a huge presence with contesting shots…while he was in the game, we were able to get stops…"

It’s no accident that despite playing such a short duration, the Pistons outscored the Thunder by six points with him on the floor – the highest margin on the team. He also helped neutralize Wilcox, who had more offensive rebounds in the first half (five) than all of the Pistons (four). "I thought Amir was great, I thought he was super on Wilcox," Curry said. "Wilcox kicked our tail the first half and I thought Amir did a tremendous job in the second half on him.

http://www.nba.com/pistons/news/OKCDET_081226_recap.html

Amir!

Juicebox,

Everyone else doesn’t lose.

If you don’t want us to talk about tonight only, then don’t reference tonight only in your defense of Amir Johnson sucking. The fucking guy does his job when he’s been given time to play rather just time enough to get sweaty and give other guys rest.

I don’t see how +/- doesn’t justify an off night, especially considering most of the asshats on this board who slurp AI seem to forget that while he shot above 50% in the game he’s still at 42% on the season. Knee contusion or no knee contusion, that’s still a lot of shot jacking, and it’s the worst FG % on the team, among the starters.

Amir is the greatest ever.

/sliced bread

Juicebox:

With all due respect you must have watched a different game.

For once Curry got it right.

Mike,

Do you approve of that message?

Amir is the greatest ever.>>

I thinmk you have lost it.

Amir was the best Pistons player tonight and deserves to start. It is better for the team when he starts.

When he started this year there wssn’t one quarter that he played in that the Pistons were outscored that was even in the Boston game.

Amir is not the greatest but he is the best Pistons post defender and the Pistons best low post shooter.

He also is the Pistons best rebounder. (check the per minute stats)

Curry should staret Amir and allow Amir to use all of his fouls. That will make us a better team.

Amir the greatest ever. No – not by a long shot, but he is good enough among the Pistons group of players that he should be starting and finishing.

Mike,

Do you approve of that message?

LOL that is good one.

damn man, I’m sorry. I’ve just got so much love for Amir that I think he deserves to be in the All Star Game.

If Detroit isn’t going to play him, perhaps we could acquire Mouhamed Sene for him straight up?

/you know who’d

Shot jacking? AI took his shots. He has been taking the shots that he makes. He took lay-ups, nd as weird as it is, he missed lay-ups nd good shots. Against the bulls, he took a few bad shots, but throughout the season, he has taken good shots. He’s just been missing them. That’s why lately, his field goal percentage has been going up. If he’s been shot jacking, then his percentage would’ve have at what it was. Goin from 38% to 42%. He’s on pace to actually lead the starting 5 in field goal percentage.

About this game though, I felt that Amir did play hard, and the only foul I can remember him giving at the moment was a good foul to keep Westbrook from getting an easy dunk. Iverson deserves credit, but people choose either to give him none, or to try to take away from what he did. Stuckey had 4 turnovers too.

Anyways though. Like I’ve said, this game is NOT out of the norm for Iverson. He’s been shooting very good lately. He’s gettin familiar with the team. Yea, for the season, his shooting percentage is at 42, but it’s bound to go up, so constantly referencing his shooting percentage as of right now is bound to end up pointless.

I like slam dunk shots.

@Entity:
AI has shot 19110 FG’a in his career. He has hit .426% of those shots. His shooting % is definitely NOT “bound to go up.”

Nobody wants to take away anything from AI, but seriously, do you want pistons fans to be happy after barely stealing a home win against the Thunder?

@Juicebox:
You definitely didn’t watch a minute of that game if you think Amir played poorly. We would have lost if he hadn’t played- there were multiple times when he challenged a shot of someone else’s man (sometimes resorting to legit fouls, sometimes having B.S. ones called), and Wilcox didn’t score or get an offensive rebound when they were matched up, basically he tried as hard as possible to DEFEND (both individually and as part of the team defense)- it was kinda surprising to see from one of our bigs, because it happens so rarely now. But it definitely swung what had been a neck and neck game decisively in our direction (then we proceeded to almost choke it away).

And about the Stuck hype/excitement. He’s 22 and against CHI had the first totally dominant game of his career. Joe has also made it clear Stuck will be part of the future here, so its happy times when we get a glimpse/hint that a big part of Joe’s future plan has a chance to work.

Also if anyone’s an AI fan wondering why pistons fans are excited about Stuck, look up each of their profiles on basketball-reference.com and compare AI’s 2nd year to Stuck’s current season (especially look at the ‘Advanced’ section). If Stuck’s numbers hold this year, the two will have had fairly similar 2nd years (Stuck’s 1st year struggles can be partially explained by a serious wrist injury, and being from a small school it took an extra period of time to acclimate to higher competition). So doesn’t it make sense to be excited that someone with a chance to be as dynamic a player as AI in his prime, will be on the pistons for the foreseeable future?

To sum this game up:
1) From NBA.com: “The Pistons didn’t have an easy time Friday, though, as they struggled to beat Oklahoma City (3-27).” – this is as good as a loss people
2) Amir sighting – but 4 fouls in 12 minutes tells us he knows he is in for a very short span
3)5 minutes for Maxi?
4) We’re playing the starters WAY too many minutes too early in the season against very very bad teams. We won’t make it past the first round even if we make the playoffs.
5) there was once a time when the starters demolished such teams in the 1st quarter leaving the zoo crew to handle they’re assignmets. That is long gone. Coach curry is killing our future
that’s it. end of rant

Herrmann? :(

fire curry now!

Nobody likes a close game, even if it’s a win, against a horrible team, and Detroit’s had too many of those in the last month or so (well, those and the games where horrible teams beat Detroit soundly). But hey, the Wizards shoulda/coulda beat the Cavs on Christmas, and the Warriors beat the Celts last night, so it happens.

Nice to see AI take over in the 4th and hit a game winner — and leaving only .2 on the clock. If you believe AI is here to win this year, that’s the sort of thing we have him for. Yeah, it would be more impressive to do that against a better team, but you have to play who’s on your schedule.

Re the “debate” over AI here, it reminds me of fans debating Chris Webber a couple of years back. Both players had plusses and minuses, but when things go wrong, it’s easier to blame the “new guy” than the players you’ve been cheering for years. I think AI is trying and is a valuable player.

Re Amir, jeez, my take-away last night wasn’t that he was either brilliant or awful, but rather that he PLAYED. Obviously, he brought energy and obviously he didn’t have a great stat sheet. The point, though, is that he needs more minutes so we can really, truly tell if he has the ability to be a regular contributer when it counts and in the future.

Like Q.D. and Petey, for whatever reason, I never thought Detroit was going to lose, even after the big Thunder run in the 4th quarter. But I was frustrated because I wanted to rest the starters for tonight, and see some other bench players (Herrmann indeed). But they let the Thunder sink what, eight straight shots?

Detroit used to be a team that would clamp down defensively pretty much all the time. Then they were a team that could “turn up” the defensive intensity pretty much when they wanted to. Then it became less consistent. Now it really seems like they are barely a above-average defensive team. I’m not blaming AI, I’m blaming pretty much everyone, but it is sad.

Toledo Joe, you are much too rational for this thread. Please post elsewhere for the time being.

@Toledo Joe:
I agree with a lot of what you’re sayin, but just wanted to add; its pretty hard to give this team the benefit of the doubt with how they’ve been playing- for reference we’re 5-5 in our last ten games, and that is against teams with a combined winning % of .362%, and we have been outscored over that 10 game period by an average of 1.3 points per game (so basically we’ve been slightly lucky to even go 5-5). If we’d been crushing the crappy teams we’ve been playing, like BOS and CLE have, then I think reaction to games like this would be less negative. But this wasn’t just a random off-night, it was yet another worrying sign that this team has serious problems, as we have consistently struggled to beat even the weakest teams in the league (and this while giving our starters huge minutes).

yeah Ohad, this win is as good as a loss.

when Detroit clinches the #1 seed by 1 game this season, I think Joe D calls David Stern and says “yo Dave, remember that game back in December against the Thunder? let’s count that as a loss, we’ll take the #3 seed”

Re Amir, jeez, my take-away last night wasn’t that he was either brilliant or awful, but rather that he PLAYED. Obviously, he brought energy and obviously he didn’t have a great stat sheet. The point, though, is that he needs more minutes so we can really, truly tell if he has the ability to be a regular contributer when it counts and in the future.>>

Its hard to put up a great stat sheet when.

1. Your teammates only pass you the ball twice in 13 minutes.
2. Defensive stops are not included in the stat sheet.

He did lead all Pistons last night in +/- with a plus 6 in his 13 minutes and after all the idea of the game is for your team to be on the plus side when the final buzzer goes off.

Play Amir and get him the ball on offense or Trade him.

Ok, but for people referencing AI’s career shooting percentage. It’s pointless. He spent 9 years on a team where he was the go-to guy. He had a very high usage rate, and he brought them to the finals. His career shooting percentage is at 42% becase it suffered while on philadelphia.

Stop talking about his career shooting percentage. The better the team AI is on, the better his shooting percentage is. His shooting percentage was 46% last year. He was on a better team- Denver nuggets.

I don’t understand what is so hard to get. His career stats don’t show his true skill. He shot a good percentage last year and the year before because he was on a better team that didn’t need him as much. He didn’t many shots being double teamed and triple teamed.

He only shot a low percentage this season because of the knee contusion. His shooting has been increasing. STOP bringing up career stats. Try to understand why he shot low on philadelphia and realize that he shot better on denver, and then realize he only shot poorly (38%) at beginning of the season because of his knee. Finally, understand (look it up if you must), that his shooting percentage has been really good the past few games.

I decided to look it up. He’s been shooting at about 48.7% the last 8 games. It would’ve been over 50%, but he shot poorly against and Atlanta, the only 2 games over the 8-game stretch, that he shot under 46%. I said he’d be shooting visibly well, after the knee pain started to fade away, and people didn’t believe. Now that it’s showing that I’m right, people are trying to argue.

By the end of the season, his shooting percentage should be aound 48%, and I wonder what some of you are gonna say then. Ya’ll probably mention that his career shooting percentage (which has nothing to do with how he’s been shooting since he left Phili) is still low.

Gabe: Don’t get me wrong, I’m not “giving Detroit the benefit of the doubt” in the sense that I think we are on-course for another ECF. Detroit is going to have to play better and beat better teams, on a semi-regular basis, for me to think that. Oh, and stop playing Tay at the 4 and Rip at the 3. Anyway, I get it: did any team in the NBA have an easier schedule than Detroit over the last 10 games or month or so?

Mike: I’m all for playing Amir more and giving him the ball on offense more. That’s not because I am overwhelmingly confident that Amir will be great (although I wouldn’t be surprised if he’s good). It’s because, again (i) small ball won’t go far in the playoffs, and (ii) we have to find out whether Amir (and Maxy, and for that matter Brown) can be developed into regular contributors or not.

play amir now! fire curry yesterday!

My assessment of AI so far:

Defensively, he’s quick but not tall or strong. So his defense is limited to gambling because he can’t force the offensive player where he wants him to go. Also, he doesn’t fight through screens. Since, he’s prone to free lancing, the old Piston style of bend (a little) but don’t break defense isn’t going to work because you can’t count on him to be where he’s supposed to be.

With AI on the floor, there needs to be more of a gambling trapping D.

For pick and rolls, obviously he can’t switch and he’ll be slow to get around the screen because he can’t fight through it. So it’s probably best to trap the PG with AI and the big.

Likely, the OPP FG% will go up because the Pistons will give up more easy baskets. But, they will also create more turnovers. This is already proving to be the case.

My guess is that this defense will improve over the course of the season but will be trumped in the playoffs by an elite team that takes care of the ball.

Offensively, if AI is running the point, it needs to be pick and roll. If not, AI will pound the rock looking for a crease while everyone stands around. Pick and roll at least stimulates a little movement. The other thing would be to have him initiate the play (i.e. pass to Rip coming off a screen) but this seems to be a waste of his abilities.

When he’s off the ball, he’s deadly coming off screens with the defense shifting. The three guard set with Rip and AI moving off the ball has been beautiful to watch and puts a lot of pressure on the defense.

And they say it is stressfull around the Holidays! Sounds like some of you need to jump off the high dive “Super Lindey” right into some Camel Toe!
Curry has fifty some games to figure it out. Sounds easy, looks easy, and yet here we are. Personally I could care less who gets the accolades as long as we bring the belt back. Safe to say the schedule over the next two months SHOULD lead to more spirited debates over who should be playin and % and practices and Curry and all the losers who hope to someday play in the D.
HAPPY HOLIDAYS FOLKS, MAY IT BE SAFE, WET AND WARM!!!!

The Pistons are improving so I’m happy. They still have loads of problems but at least they aren’t getting blown out by the equivalent of the Timberwolves of Oklahoma. I’m sorry to miss last night’s game on TV, everybody played, Pistons led most of the way, some drama, and a last second game winner! It’s not a new car for Xmas but it ain’t socks and underwear either.

“Offensively, if AI is running the point, it needs to be pick and roll. If not, AI will pound the rock looking for a crease while everyone stands around.”

Having him pound the rock while everyone stands around is FAR more productive than folks seem to think. It creates better shots for his teammates.

The trick is to let him probe the defense with his handle early in the shot clock. The defense gets out of position trying to cope with him, and he can pass or shoot against a defense out of position. And if he finds nothing, there is still plenty of clock after he kicks the ball out for a reset.

The fourth quarter of the OKC game is a good example of what Iverson running the point with Afflalo should look like, with Iverson looking for his shot, and Afflalo providing spacing and getting wide open threes.

The first half of the Chicago game is a good example of what Iverson running the point with Stuckey should look like, with Iverson’s probing opening up the driving lanes for Stuckey.

I will again offer up the correct backcourt rotations for this team:

Iverson/Afflalo 20mpg
Iveron/Stuckey 14mpg
Stuckey/Rip 14mpg
Rip plays 12mpg at the ‘3’

All four guards get tick, and all are put in the best position to succeed.

This will also mean that Iverson and Rip are only on the floor together for limited minutes, which is important, since we’re going to need Tay at the ‘3’ and two bigs during the playoffs.

“When he’s off the ball, he’s deadly coming off screens with the defense shifting. The three guard set with Rip and AI moving off the ball has been beautiful to watch and puts a lot of pressure on the defense.”

Three problems:

1) Smallball isn’t going to be able to defend well against good teams. AI and Rip should only be on the floor together for brief periods.

2) AI isn’t Rip. Rip’s whole game is about moving without the ball. AI’s whole game is about his handle. While AI can play the running off screens game, it’s not the best use of (what should be) his limited minutes on the floor.

3) When Rip is running around off screens, there is no floor spacing for AI to probe the defense. In other words, Rip’s strength and AI’s strength can’t be employed at the same time. It’s another reason why AI and Rip should only be on the floor together for brief periods.

Tonight’s game ought to be interesting.

Milwaukee is better than their record, it’s the second night of a back to back on the road, and we’re used to playing worse teams of late.

Warning signs abound.

@Petey:
Good post- probably your best breakdown of how to use AI (and why to use him separately from Rip). I’m not sure about that minute distribution though- among other things, it seems like it would be hard for Rip to swallow playing just 26 minutes a game.

@Entity:
Good point re:AI’s usage rate. Looking at his career, with a few exceptions, generally the lower his usage rate the more efficient he becomes (and he has become more efficient with age/experience as well). Although his usage rate has never dropped below 25% (which is a super-star, 1st option rate), I would be interested to see how efficient he could become if his usage rate dropped to more of a role player level.

There is definitely a balancing act that comes with AI, because lets say the lower his usage % gets, the more efficient he is. But because scoring is his best skill, his usage rate can never drop too far, because then you are sacrificing his main contribution to the team. There should hopefully be a happy offensive medium, and maybe, as you (Entity) have been pointing out- AI’s recent run of good games could mean he is starting to find it.

Petey:

You might not be enough of a Pistons fan to know this, but there was a long time Pistons scout named Will Robinson, and your last post made me think of “Lost in Space” and the “Danger, Will Robinson!!!” line.

Petey: "2) AI isn’t Rip. Rip’s whole game is about moving without the ball. AI’s whole game is about his handle. While AI can play the running off screens game, it’s not the best use of (what should be) his limited minutes on the floor.

3) When Rip is running around off screens, there is no floor spacing for AI to probe the defense. In other words, Rip’s strength and AI’s strength can’t be employed at the same time. It’s another reason why AI and Rip should only be on the floor together for brief periods."

Yes, AI’s strength is his handle but he can utilize that strength so much better when the defense can’t get set for him. They can do that when he has the ball at the beginning of the offense. With my way (which is how I remember him operating with Eric Snow when he went to the Finals) he gets to probe a defense that doesn’t know where he’s going to be attacking from because they don’t know which way he’s going to come off screens. It puts so much more pressure on the defense.

In your scenario, where AI has the ball at the top and looks for creases, the defense can decide where to force him to go. That’s why Lebron was so much easier to stop in the past. Jordan too. You say that he’ll be able to get the defense out of position with his handle, I say a smart defense won’t have this problem and will be able to dictate where he goes.

Also, this doesn’t mean that AI and Rip have to be on the court together. Stuckey is big enough to guard SGs. You can have them switch roles on defense. Tay can still play the 3.

Kwame should walk around all day long saying, “I am a wall. I am a wall. I am a wall.” And then he should play with Rip and set monster screens for him all day long. Seriously. Kwame is HUGE. He may not be able to catch a pass but surely he can free up Rip for some open J’s! I guess we’ll never know, though, since he doesn’t get minutes….

Gabe: As a scorer, Ai’s usage rateshouldn’t drop down too much, cuz he is a superstar. The thing I noticed was, the better the team he’s on, the lower his usage rate is. The thing about that is, he’s able to get relatively great stats, but not having the ball as much. He doesn’t worry about double teams anymore because he has a good team, and doubling him would be a bad idea. That causes him to get easier shots and a higher percentage, which has been shown in the past few games. He’s getting lots of points at around 50% shooting. He’s not taking shots that are difficult for him. That way, he gets into a rhythm easier, and when he’s needed to take over, it won’t be as difficult. He showed it in the Utah game, where we scored 38 on well over 50% shooting.

I honestly believe he should run point, because he’ll automatically have a touch 99% of the time that he runs point, and can pick his spots. He’ll be in a rhythm easily and will just have to get everyone else going. He should pick his spots as point, and just do his thing when rodney stuckey runs point. Then, if they need him to take over, it should be no problem. It happened against the Cavs and San Antonio.

Very funny Garrett

It will be easier for defenses to set when AI’s running point, but they have Rip, Tayshaun, and Rasheed to worry. AI’s presence alone causes problems, because they have to worry about him. That makes it easier for Rip, Tayshaun, and Rasheed to get going. AI, will just have to pick his spots. If the defense slip or relaxs on him a little, he’ll make them pay. If he needs to take over, he can set up a play for himself, and get to a spot where the defense has trouble with him.

“With my way (which is how I remember him operating with Eric Snow when he went to the Finals) he gets to probe a defense that doesn’t know where he’s going to be attacking from because they don’t know which way he’s going to come off screens.”

I definitely hear what you are saying, Q.D.

But one crucial thing to note: immediately after the season where the Sixers got to the Finals, the NBA dramatically changed the rules in two ways:

1) Allowed zone defenses and soft doubles for the first time. That reduces the effectiveness of wing players in isos.

2) Disallowed hand checking on the perimeter. That allows players with handles to roam the court unmolested.

The kind of games that Steve Nash and Chris Paul play wouldn’t have been possible under the old rules. But under the new rules, they can pound the rock on the move while everyone else stands around, and it works.

And the kind of game that MJ played in his late career wouldn’t be possible under the new rules, where he catches off screens, and destroys single coverage in iso. The Iverson of the Larry Brown / Eric Snow era was essentially a mini-MJ working of isos.

Under current rules, I think you get the most advantage from Iverson if you let him move around with the ball, let defenses struggle to adjust, and take what they decide to leave you.

But we are in agreement on one thing: Iverson needs to get the ball early in the shot clock to be effective. Playing him off the ball while he stands in the corner and getting it to him on the weak side late in the clock isn’t playing to the particular advantages he offers.

Petey: your point about letting him move around with the ball is what I’ve been tryna say kinda. With many scorers, he doesn’t have to do it so much though, because unlike the suns and the hornets, the pistons play a style where their point sets them up instead of messing up the defense and getting them open. He should play that Chris Paul way, when there aren’t a lot of scorers on the court, but when Rip and Tayshaun are on, he should set them up and pick his spots to attack.

I just wanted to let everyone know that the Wizards are struggling with the OKC Thunder as well.