I’m still holding my breath until I see Hamilton or AI come off the bench when they’re healthy.

Matt writes:

Hamilton struggles to create his own shot, so it’d be pointless to ask him to anchor the second-unit.

Tell it to Lamar Odom and Andrei Kirilenko…

FWIW, I believed at the time and continue to believe that Dumars gave the contract extension to Rip as compensation for the public diminishment of his role.

I love AI coming off the bench with a starting back court of Rip & Hot Rod both offensivly and defensivly.
A pistons trademark on defense has been our ability to switch on screens without being completely exploited in a mismatch. AI’s lack of size & strenght makes that impossible &, as a team, we end up scrambling out of position leaving shooters wide open.
Last night I saw stuckey force Hedo to shoot a tough hand-in-his-face fade away when iso’d on the block. He, as well as rip, can force most 1-3 players on good eastern confrence teams into tough shots.
Offensively, Hot Rod & AI have a similar skill set (anyone see the night HR put up 40 when AI mouthed “he got that move from me” from the sidelines) with Rip bringing what he always has: the ability to post 20ppg without dominating the ball.

A backcourt bench of AI and Afflalo, again, puts 2 players whom compliment each other on the floor together. Afflalo being great on D & AI wanting to dominate the ball.

Ego aside, this seems like an easy conclusion to our current rotation shuffle & decisions like bringing a former MVP off the bench is why Curry was chosen to replace Flip and all of his experience. He has good player relations skills.

More crazy stuff floating about a trade
The Rip for Chandler idea though is interesting. Salaries match…

Petey- I think your analysis of Joe D handing out money to cushion player ego is way off.

stuckey and rip, ai and affalo. start one duo today and the other tomorrow. blow teams away with energy and penetrating guards.

it makes too much sense. what will curry do to avoid it?

maybe four guards at the same time.

sheed can play point on the second unit and tay over forty minutes at center.

AFB- Are you a Curry hater or are you being facetious…or a little bit of both?

^ careful, for all we know curry’s got the RSS feed from DBB wired directly to his clipboard…

We may all get what we hoped for — AI or Rip off the bench!
Let’s hope for one more strong defensive performance on Wednesday to convince Curry to make the change. This would be a belated Christmas gift for the DBB crew.

Detroit will likely still play smallball at times to make sure both Rip and Iverson get their minutes but I dont expect them to go to it as often

Does anyone else think that deviating from this inane small ball lineup wouldn’t have even been a possibility if Rip hadn’t gotten hurt? The injury pretty much forced Curry to make a choice WE could all see would benefit the team.

We’ll see if he has the guts to follow through once Rip returns.

So it seems like the basic chain of events is:

DBB sees there’s a problem with the Pistons.
DBB (correctly) analyzes the cause of the problems.
DBB (correctly) comes to a (more or less) consensus agreement on solutions for said problem.
Michael Curry (professional basketball coach who gets paid I’m guessing at least 10x as much $$$ as any of us) continues to look like a fucktard by bullheadishly doing nothing to fix the problem even though he admits it exists.
This goes on for two weeks, leading to much “wailing and gnashing of teeth” (to go Biblical) by the DBB community.
Curry finally sees the solution to the problem (albeit because injury forced his hand).

That was the flow-chart for the “small ball” conundrum. Now we have a new problem— does AI sit or does Rip sit?

By the end of January we will have an official answer. A month and a half after we the DBB proposed it.

Does anyone else feel woefully underpaid for the job we do?

And on a(n) (un)related note, does anybody else feel a 14-1/13-2 type January coming on? We’ve got a tough road stretch where we play at Portland, Denver, and Utah consecutively, and also Dallas, Houston, and Boston at home. I don’t think we can win all of them, but we should at least take out a couple of the big boys to put some people on notice. It’s a shame that our coach pissed away such an amatuer December schedule trying to figure out what a bunch of pinheads on a sports blog (no offense to us) figured out midway through November.

We are woefully underpaid for the job we do.

I posted this on the other thread but think it bears repeating.

“It’s all so easy for everyone on here to call Curry an idiot for not realizing small ball earlier.

But, I bet that 99% of coaches out there would have just done the safe thing from the very beginning and ran out a lineup of AI, Rip, Tay, Dyess and Sheed and stayed with it throughout the year.

How many coaches out there would put Stuckey in the starting lineup and move a multi-year All-Star (Rip or AI) to the bench?"

Hmm, maybe some sort of split salary can be negotiated… it’s hard work, after all!

“How many coaches out there would put Stuckey in the starting lineup and move a multi-year All-Star (Rip or AI) to the bench?"

I’m 100% positive that Popovich would’ve done the correct thing before any of us even knew anything was wrong. He’s a good basketball coach.

Just like us! wink

@Joel:
LOL- Great post! Usually it doesn’t bother me how much pro coaches/players make… Especially coaches, because they work their asses off and have minimal job security. But Curry has made me re-think that sympathy, because what the hell is the point of him as an NBA coach working crazy hours day and night, if he’s gonna stubbornly make the most obvious mistakes and then stick with those mistakes for weeks? If you’re gonna f___ up all the hard work you and your coaching staff are doing with silly brain-dead rotations and line-ups then you really don’t deserve a penny and you’re wasting the efforts and time of everyone who is working hard under you (i.e. assistant coaches, advanced scouts, video coordinators, etc…). As an NBA head coach, so many people have done so much hard work for Curry this season, and he’s responded by squandering a lot of that hard work senselessly- in the name of “smallball,” “match-ups,” and “being aggressive.”

So yeah, generally it doesn’t bother me how much these guys make. Michael Curry though… Even if it doesn’t bother me with Curry, he’ll still always makes me wonder if a regular Joe-schmo pistons fan off the street could do a better job than him.

“FWIW, I believed at the time and continue to believe that Dumars gave the contract extension to Rip as compensation for the public diminishment of his role.”

This is absurd. You really think a GM would add two years and 18million to someone’s contract to massage their ego. Yeah, that’s good business.

Rip’s extension was exactly what it was. Locking him up. The Pistons love Afflalo but they’re not ready to commit to rolling with him in the starting lineup.

And if you believe Chauncey, they did the deal with Rip before the trade to keep Rip from signing somewhere else in the off-season because his best friend was no longer on the team.

From the quote, Curry has probably been thinking about this for a while but was looking for an opening. He had a bunch of examples ready when answering the question (AK, Odom, Ginobli).

And again, it’s easy for the fantasy basketball players on here to say bench this guy or that. But, Curry is the one that has to deal with the egos. These players wouldn’t be as great as they are if they didn’t know with absolute certainty that they give the team the best chance to win when they play 48 minutes a game.

@Quick Darshan:
I think almost any of the coaches that we would think of as “good” would never have gone to the smallball line-up (probably the only good coach who would have gone the smallball route is D’Antoni, and he would have done a waaaaaaaaaaayyyyyy better job with it than Curry did). Can you imagine Jerry Sloan, or Pop, or Phil Jackson putting out a starting line-up with 4 out of 5 players being out of position?

Also, AI came here on the last year of his contract, Curry was beginning his first season with the total support of Joe D- Curry being much more secure in his future role on the pistons than AI. If Curry had acted quickly in selling the 6th man role to AI from close to the beginning, I think AI could have been convinced of it more easily, because it could have been explained as a way to integrate him little by little. Instead AI got thrown out there, and now anything other than him starting and playing almost 40 minutes is gonna appear to be a demotion.

I will say, at least Curry is starting to realize the mistakes he’s already made… I just wish he hadn’t made such obvious mistakes in the first place.

I’m with QD.
I vehemetly disagree with the analysis that Michael Curry is incompetent. His basketball intellegence and understanding of the NBA far exceedes mine and because of this, I’m willing to analyze his decision making with the understanding that he’s not only more knowledgable of basketball, but that he puts 1000X more thought into the dynamics of the team he’s making his living coaching.

That being said, here’s how I see it. As a head coach, especially a rookie head coach, you’re managing egos as much as the game. He comes in initially and starts with a traditional lineup but is not starting his best 5 players. He inserts Hot Rod into the starting lineup and its now your best 5 but its small ball. He let it play out for 1/3 of the early season & goes .500. Now, you have the numbers to back up the decision to pull one of your all-star guards out of the starting lineup. I’m assuming, with or without the injury to rip, he would have made the switch if the team continued playing .500 ball…reasonable. Now, you’ve gracefully managed to start a second year player over a former league MVP, everyone (most importantly AI)sees that it puts the team in the best position to win, and all you’ve given up is 11 losses in november & december. Go pistons!

“Can you imagine Jerry Sloan, or Pop, or Phil Jackson putting out a starting line-up with 4 out of 5 players being out of position?”

Those three are, no doubt, are the best coaches out there. And Nate McMillan brings Travis Outlaw off the bench.

But, you didn’t answer my question. How many coaches would have started Stuckey in the first place? Perhaps, a few of the above would have. The safe thing would have been: AI, Rip, Tay, Dyess and Sheed. That’s probably what the unfairly-maligned Flip Saunders and most of the other coaches in the league would have done. Then, we never would have seen Stuckey drop 40 on the Bulls.

agreed with DaveJ

i find the curry hating pretty funny actually… people who actually think they could be a better coach

i for one didn’t like the small ball… i still don’t think curry is an idiot though… he tried, it didn’t work so well… but now at least if they were forced into that situation against a smaller team in the playoffs, the pistons have experience playing small ball… so in the end we become more versatile

but i’m definitely happy to hear we’re likely heading back to the more traditional lineup

@Quick Darshan:
That’s definitely a good point. Personally, I’d think that those three mentioned coaches would have kept Stuck in the starting line-up: because Sloan likes a pure pick & roll PG, Phil likes size in the backcourt, and Pop gave Parker the starting job when he was a raw 21 year old.

But you’re absolutely right- most coaches would have just happily plugged AI into the starting line-up. Maybe my hopes with Curry were too high, but from all his pre-season big talk, and how much better we were made to believe Curry would be than Flip- to have him then make the same mistake that all the less than great coaches would have made doesn’t really speak well of Curry (or of our getting rid of Flip).

Gabe- I dont think a former league MVP and top 5 all time ppg scorer was going to be easily convinced by a rookie head coach he’s not ready to play 40 mins and start for most teams in the league. At least without alienating him. You can tell someone the way or show them the way. Showing them removes all doubt and is gonna keep AI on board the piston express, making him the best scoring 6 man in the league. Booya!

Not to be Captain Obvious, but clearly none of us are qualified to be a head coach in the NBA and my silly conjecture about us being underpaid is most definitely just that— conjecture.

The point is that it’s fun and hilarious to poke fun at a guy who’s getting paid millions of dollars to come to decisions that we all have come to, and yet get paid not a dime for it.

Armchair coaching. It’s good fun. It’s why the fantasy sports empire exists.

If you think this is bad, try listening to Chicago Bears talk radio:

“Lubbie’s godda go. When I coached da kids— South Peoria High, class of Eighddy-Too— if dey were anywheres close da playin’ as lackydayzikal as da Bears’ D, I’da wacked ‘em witta stick. I’ll coach da Bears. Dey don’t even godda pay me.”

“But, you didn’t answer my question. How many coaches would have started Stuckey in the first place?”

Under these circumstances, with a mandate from Joe D. to find minutes? Most coaches would have done so.

AI to the bench makes the most sense. Forty and Hamilton are our backcourt for three more years, so we should invest in that future. This allows curry to pair AI with Spellcheck, whose offensive game is largely limited to spot-up threes and tough defense.

It also pairs Iverson with Dyess and Maxiell, giving us a legitimate inside/outside game off the bench.

I still think Herrmann should round out the rotation, and that Spellcheck hasn’t shown enough on offense to merit 25 mpg. But that’s not going to make a huge difference.

Awesome quote, Joel. I pictured Chris Farrley, George Wendt, & mike meyers smoking cigars as I read it.

@DaveJ:
People can have an incredible amount of basketball knowledge, and still be awful at coaching/front office jobs- i.e. Isiah Thomas, Jordan.

I’m begging the people currently defending Curry to read this:
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/trainingcamp08/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=PistonsForecast0809

That is Hollinger’s season preview, the first section has great analysis of last years pistons strengths and weaknesses. To me, reading it after the smallball experiment, pretty much shows that Curry didn’t have a great grasp on what made us a good/great team in the past (short answer: offensive rebounding, shot-blocking).

As DaveJ hypothesizes, there’s maybe a tiny glimmer of a possibility that Curry knew he was going to go back to a regular line-up eventually… But here’s my question: If Curry, from the start, had convinced AI to take the super 6th man role, and we’d played great (and hadn’t struggled the way we have the past few weeks), would anyone have complained? Were AI, Rip, and Tay happy when we were playing smallball and getting beat by crappy teams? They didn’t seem happy to me… To me, the way to keep everyone happy is to win- smallball was/is a loser route- it’s gonna lose games, so its practically guaranteed NOT to keep people happy.

Even Phil Jackson made the mistake of starting all-star Gary Payton over Derek Fisher.

“If Curry, from the start, had convinced AI to take the super 6th man role, and we’d played great (and hadn’t struggled the way we have the past few weeks), would anyone have complained?”

And what if the Pistons struggled with AI on the bench? It’s not out of the question, since AI was new to the team and there would have been an adjustment there for both him and all the bench players (plus, Dyess wasn’t back yet). Then, what do you do?

Just because you THINK that that would have been the best rotation (I happen to agree with you), doesn’t mean that it would have magically worked from the start. In fact, it doesn’t mean it will work now.

“Forty and Hamilton are our backcourt for three more years, so we should invest in that future.”

But if the Pistons hire Forty’s girlfriend as coach, won’t that create a conflict of interest?

@QD:
You’re definitely right that it’s not at all cut and dry- and if I’m coming off as too declarative, than that’s my bad, this is all just IMHO.

I guess my reasoning for thinking that the post-trade starting line-up would have been better- the one with Stuck at PG (before AI could play), is that line-up played really well for those first two games and had tons of familiarity from last year. There’s obviously no guarantee they would have kept it up, but it seemed to me like everyone knew their roles and played well together. I think the regular line-up of Stuck+Rip+Tay+Sheed+Amir would have won more than the smallball line-up… If it hadn’t worked, then Curry could have put AI in the starting line-up and just said he’d been working on integrating AI into the starting line-up, and now he’s prepared/ready/integrated enough to start.

Laughton-

It would be ironic if Joe D finally went after Tyson Chandler. This team would probably have at least one more championship if Joe D would have picked up Chandler in a sign and trade with Chicago for Big Ben, rather than letting him go in free agency and signing Nazr. If I remember correctly, Chandler was then released by Chicago, and Detroit certainly could have signed him.

jb, he ty was traded to N.O. for jr smith, pj brown and a bag of skittles, not released.

Yo… (sorry for making this uncomfortable for everyone but..)

Petey wrote:

“Matt writes:

Hamilton struggles to create his own shot, so it’d be pointless to ask him to anchor the second-unit.

Tell it to Lamar Odom and Andrei Kirilenko…"

Oranges aren’t Apples and Apples aren’t Oranges… Richard Hamilton plays in a backcourt position that requires ballhandling. While Lamar Odom (foolishly) has been looked upon as some type of “point forward” during his non-illustrious career, both he and Kirilenko do not need to create their own shots. They catch the ball in the post OR on the perimeter and with limited dribbling can get off a decent shot.

Another thing about giving Rip a big extension to stroke his ego… it’s not a horrible extension. It’s a solid extension for a guy who has put up 17-20 points a night who shows up for big playoff games and who shoots at or near 50% from the field on mostly jumpshots.

There are no visible egos on this team except for the man who wears #1 on his back. Clearly the most important thing to him is the name on the BACK of the jersey and “getting his”.

jbstork: I don’t know for sure that Dumars was pushing for it, but as I remember the Bulls wouldn’t do it, hoping to weaken the Pistons by stealing Big Ben and leaving the Pistons stuck with the MLE (Detroit could go over the cap to retain Big Ben, but not to sign a FA. As such, they were stuck with one “big” signing that summer, not two as they originally hoped).

The Bulls then turned around and traded Chandler to the Hornets for PJ Brown and JR Smith. Then about a week later they traded Smith to the Nuggets for Howard Eisley and two 2nd-rounders.

My preference would be for AI to come off the bench since Rip/Stuckey is our back court for the next couple years and this way AI would get to spend a larger chunk of his time defending second unit players. I hope we still see our 3 guard line-up in stretches, but no more Tay at the 4.

I’ve heard DBB’ers compare Curry to Isiah, MJ, Popovich, Phil Jackson & Jerry Sloan in arguing the con’s of his coaching decisions. 29 games into his coaching career and a 18-11 record later he’s either not making the decisions a hall of fame coach would make or he’s boarderline incompetent like some former NBA players turned coach/gm’s of the past. It never suprises me the extent one will go to defend their opinions…unless they use the name Isiah Thomas. Come on Gabe.

Michael Curry’s record vs. Pops, Jackson, & Sloan this year: 2-1 with a loss to utah in OT.

Isiah Thomas= immensly talented nut job who got black balled from the dream team
Micheal Curry= Head of NBA players union

DaveJ: good point, bad example. Isiah was also head of the Players Association, serving from 1987-94.

Forty’s girlfriend for Player Coach.

Clearly none of us could be an nba coach. But that doesn’t mean it’s not ridiculous that we came up with a solution very early on to a critical problem that has seemed to baffle a professional coach.

It’s also easy to defend a guy after a four-game win streak. I’d remind everyone that we almost lost to the oklahoma city thunder during said streak. We still have one of the lightest sos’s in the league. Our average mov is like 0.6. We’ve massively underperformed expectations. Maybe this is all we needed and now we’re going to mollest the entire league. But to this point, I see nothing in the data to make me think curry is even just a bit below average.

And for the record, I do think I’m better at evaluating nba talent than michael curry. Only because I can average what three smart stat guys say, and I think that would outperform curry’s gut. Doesn’t mean I’d ever draw up plays better, manage egos, etc. – all important parts of the equation. But talent evaluation…yeah I think he’s just stupid enough to lose to three stat guys.

Also, I still don’t understand any of the logic behind wanting Tyson Chandler on this squad. Save for a slight improvement in foul rate, Amir is a better player (rebounding, scoring, shot blocking, defense, etc)

Also – my favorite part of curry’s presser: “we know amir does things that will never show up in the stat sheet.” Haha the statistical community has been singing his praises for a couple years, but curry’s got something figured out with his gut that is unknowable otherwise? What a freaking clown. I’ll bet michael curry has zero mathematical understanding of any of the statistical methods these guys use (dean oliver, john hollinger, the adjusted +/- guys, etc.)

Matt Watson -Thanks for the info and the tact in which it was given.

I guess the NBAPA will take anyone. It really does lower my opinion of the players association and, to a lesser extent, Curry’s credentials.

Well, Isiah was awfully shrewd back in the day. He didn’t always make the most of his opportunities (Raptors, CBA, Knicks, etc) but he certainly must have impressed enough people to at least get the chance — you don’t always see former jocks get handed the keys to millionaire dollar corporations.

And for what it’s worth, I think his Dale & Thomas popcorn company is doing well.

DaveJ:

If true, that’s brilliant, and something I’d never considered. Having empirical proof to back up your assertions would be vital for a first year coach. AI can say he’s down with doing whatever it takes to help the team win, but doing it is another matter entirely. I bet the Jazz game was a big wakeup call. 38 points and no win. Now Curry can move him to the bench, get more minutes for Max and Amir, and watch the wins pile up as the personnel get more comfortable with each other. Not relying on Sheed and Dyess’ aging legs at the 5 will be vital down the stretch. Rest them up for the playoffs.

I just hope they find room for Kwame in there somewhere. We’re going to need him against the likes of Big Z, Howard and Perkins in the post-season. He’s not as good as Ben Wallace, but we don’t even need him to be. With him and Amir to take the heat off of Sheed and Dyess, we can go all the way.

Go Pistons!

Heading on a flight soon, so I thought I’d extrapolate the “Amir > Chandler” explanation here:

Amir, 36 minutes:
10.4ppg, 10.5 rpg (4.8 orpg) 1 spg, 2.7 bpg, TS% .595

Chandler, 36 minutes:
10 ppg, 9.3 rpg (3.9 orpg) .4 spg, 1.8 bpg, TS% .553

Amir PER: 16.43

Chanlder PER: 13.48

“but Amir’s foul rate!”

When Amir plays > 20 minutes per game, his foul rate declines dramatically. In games played over 20 minutes, Amir’s foul rate is 5.4 per 36 minutes.

I don’t know if I would really say that “small ball died.” In reality, the players that picked up Hamilton’s minutes were Stuckey and Prince (who played over 40) and Afflalo (another guard). Yes, Amir started – but he played less than 20 minutes and played poorly. (Yes, I’m prepared for the onslaught of people to come in and defend him. I can’t wait to once again hear about the amazing job he did on Chris Wilcox three games ago. It was breathtaking. I’ve never seen anyone shut down Chris Wilcox the way he did.)

Maxiel played more than he has been usually, sure. But he had more fouls and turnovers than he did rebounds. The bigs that got to play didn’t play well – and most of Rip’s minutes were divided amongst the guys that already play under the small ball system.

This game broke our string of only one starter shooting over 50% – by no one doing so. We won the game last night because Rasheed showed up. When Rasheed shows up we suddenly go from having a subpar post player to one of the best defensive and offensive big men in the game – it’s quite a different team.

Fact is, Ginobli, AK, and Odom aren’t and weren’t their teams leading scorers. They didn’t lead their team in assists or steals, or really any major category. Odom is the third option. Same with Ginobli. AK might be more like the 4th. Iverson, and I know everyone on here hates him because they only have enough love in their hearts for Amir Johnson, leads the team is scoring. Cue: someone pointing out that he is only shooting 42% (oh my God, you mean right in the middle of the pack of the starting lineup). He leads the team in assists. He is still the teams best offensive player. He has lost some of his quickness, but a slightly slower Iverson is still the best option we have when it comes to scoring. Moving him to the bench is not the equivalent to any of the moves cited by Curry of other teams. When you take your third option and move him to the bench it’s because he’s getting neglected because option 1 and 2 absorb so many of the shots. When you move option 1 (arguably, at worst, option 2) to the bench, you’re freeing up shots for options 4 and 5. Why?

The problem with the small ball isn’t that Iverson isn’t a SG. It’s that Prince isn’t a PF. So, why does inserting a PF into the lineup mean that Iverson (the only player playing in his best position the odd man out)?

Has Amir ever played more than 20 minutes in a game that wasn’t a blowout for one side or the other where defense isn’t even an element of the style of play?

He was barely hitting 20 at the start of the season when he was starting games-sometimes because of fouls others because of Curry.

He had 3 fouls before the 4:00 minute mark in the first quarter against the Magic. He wasn’t guarding Dwight Howard either – he was guarding Rashard Lewis – not the type of player where his defender should be picking up fouls at that rate. It also wasn’t a game where a lot of fouls were being called. We only had one other player over 2 – who was McDyess with 3 in five more minutes of playing than Amir.

When you take a guy that plays so rarely and expand his numbers and compare them with a guy that actually plays around those types of minutes the comparison is just false. One’s proven. One’s predicted.

Don’t forget Amir’s wilcard though: The guy can shut down Chris Wilcox. I’d like to see Tyson Chandler try and do that.

wilcard=wildcard

Well, if we add a big and don’t bench Tayshaun, then some guard gets benched.

Of course, if Curry can truly implement a six starters approach, everyone can play. I just hope the refs don’t notice.

Obviously if we add a PF then someone is getting benched. But why out of Stuckey, Hamilton, Iverson and Prince, should it be Iverson?

Based entirely on the fact that only Prince can play SF (when in fact Hamilton actually has been able to guard the LeBrons and Pierce’s of the world better than Prince over last season) and that because Hamilton will be around for the next couple seasons so he has to play the 2? That doesn’t seem like the most logical grounds for Iverson to be the one selected.

Wildcard, bitches!

Man, I wish It’s Always Sunny wasn’t done for another year.

Actually Juicebox, my preference for AI coming off the bench has nothing to do with the reasons you mentioned. I’d rather him come off the bench because Rip can’t play PG and AI can. I’d like to have either AI or Stuckey on the court at all times.

Amir rarely hit 20 due to Curry’s rotation, more than anything. He’d start the game, play 8-9 minutes, or until he picked up two fouls. Then he’d start the second half, and play maybe another 8 or so. Then he was gone for the rest of the game.

I suppose I like what Curry tact is with him now; he causes all sorts of havoc out there, so just leave him in, and if he fouls, he fouls. And as long as the fouls he does pick up are generally ones like tying someone up to prevent an easy score (like the one on Howard last night), I’ll live with that. When they’re committed because he’s under the basket, doing a Varejao impression, like his third last night…not so much.

You can tell the team’s doing well, when we can get bogged down in these sorts of discussions again.

And bring AI off the bench, if he’s truly going to be the Mr. Team Player he presented himself as last night. That, and I just have the feeling that Rip will have another rocky “adjustment period” similar to the one he suffered after Chauncey was traded, if he is brought off the bench. And QD just broke it down nicely.

Juicebox,

I think the main concensus as to why AI gets benched over Rip is that AI can create for himself offensively. And all the havoc he wreaks on defenses leaves AA and Hermann to shoot spot-up 3’s (which they’ve both proven they can do), Dyess with open midrange j’s, and Amir/Max/Kwame banging around for all the garbage in the paint. And AA covers his very obvious defensice deficiencies.

Rip on the other hand has a game that is completely reliant on recieving timely passes when he curles off screens, so being paired with Stuckey makes more sense.

That’s it, basically. It’s almost a compliment for AI, because it’s like we don’t trust Rip enough to put him on the floor without any true ballhandlers, whereas you can stick AI out there with people who just shot spot-up jumpers and play defense and everybody’s happy.

*defensive

I’ve been reading these arguements for that past few days and feel like its time to chime in. Its pretty obvious that Rip or AI needs to come off the bench but you can’t kill Curry for waiting this long to admit it. He’s a brand-new, under 40, supposedly player-friendly kind of coach. Reputation(AI’s) alone meant that MC had to give AI a chance to make things work in the starting lineup. Stuckey and Rip earned their spots over time but AI was just thrown in during the season. It wouldn’t surprise me either if JoeD was giving Curry a few helpful ideas about how to handle the egos. I can see Joe saying, “just give it a month or more to see what you got, then make your adjustments.”

I agree Rip can’t play PG. I also agree that I want AI or Stuckey on the court at all times. I just prefer playing them each 40 minutes and staggering their out-times to accomplish that rather than benching the team’s best offensive player. I just think Prince is the odd man out. I think Rip arguably can play SF just as well as he can. I’m a fan of the best at every position start – because bench players play less than starters. It’s pretty simple. Ginobli is once again a starter. And Odom isn’t as good as Gasol is.

I guess in some way I’ve become sold on the lineup as is actually. I think it does have the potential to create more problems for the opponent than it does for us. Especially because our PF alternatives are an undersized poor rebounder in Maxiel, Amir who can’t stay on the court for starter stints and is also lacking in strength, experience, etc., and Kwame who couldn’t guard the Rashard Lewis or Josh Smiths of the world, and McDyess who probably isn’t equipped for starter minutes for the duration of the season. I guess I’ve become convinced that Prince could be our best PF option – his weakness, height and strength, seems equivelant to the weakness of all the bigs sitting on the bench, but he provides a much more dynamic offesnive threat for the opposing teams PF to defend.

I actually kind of liked amir’s third foul. I didn’t think he was flopping. He set himself for a charge and was just inside the restricted area. Charges are extemely positive events – they always lead to a change of possession and don’t require the other team to miss a shot. If the downside potential is a foul and sending the other guy to the line, and the opportunity cost of doing nothing is an easy layup, I think it’s a pretty high-efficiency play.

Amir also had two fouls that prevented howard dunks – clearly a winning strategy.

While I did not think amir played that well yesterday (which isn’t shocking given he had to cover a perimeter player), his fouls didn’t really trouble me…

I also think a 3 guard line can be an asset for this team but not with Tay at the 4. Rip plays really good scrappy/dirty defense on SFs and he would have 2 different guards to set him up. Then you could pair Sheed with Amir, Max, or even (gasp) Kwame to go crazy on the boards. Tay can guard PFs on the ball but he just isn’t big enough to get tons of rebounds.

One thing I want to check is our rebounding rates when amir plays some minimum threshold of minutes. I’ve noticed teams are really aggressive in trying to box him out. And I’ve even seen him double boxed a fair amount. So I have a theory that he’s kind of like having a great d tackle in football – even if he doesn’t make all the tackles, he makes it easier for others to do so.

The first game of the small-ball era was against the Wizards on 12/9. In the 8 games played with the “small” lineup, we went 5-3. Not terrible, not good. The glaring shortcomings? Points in the paint and rebounding. I’m sure that we could probably win 50 games playing small ball, but the way Curry was (mis)managing the rotations and (under)utilizing the bench was probably going to lead to our starters being WAY overworked come playoff time and our bench not having the experience/chemistry to be able to really contribute when we’d need them to in a seven game series.

That was a hell of a sentence at the end there. Very Pynchon-ian if I do say so myself (not nearly enough semi-colons though).

I do think, however, that the small ball experience will be invaluable against teams with finesse PF’s like Orlando, New Orleans, Miami (more or less undersized in the entire frontcourt), Atlanta (same as Miami), etc. It’s those monstrous front lines in Boston and Cleveland that I worry about.

Did you just compare you’re writing style to that of Thomas Pynchon? That’s the craziest thing I’ve read on here since… what time was that post where someone wrote that Amir Johnson was just as good, if not better, than Tyson Chandler.

" Very Pynchon-ian if I do say so myself (not nearly enough semi-colons though)."

Or, you know, the rest.

@ kevin s.

Nice.

“Did you just compare you’re writing style to that of Thomas Pynchon? That’s the craziest thing I’ve read on here since… what time was that post where someone wrote that Amir Johnson was just as good, if not better, than Tyson Chandler.”

Sort of, in the same way that I used to shout, “Kobe!” when I shot pitiful fadeaways in my parents driveway…

or in the same way that Dave Chappel shouts, “Kobe!” when shooting condoms into a garbage can

Did somebody order a zing-burger?

My preference would be try every combination with the 3 guards. until they’re comfortable with a line-up. You can’t be sure what’ll work best with the line-up.

If we are really going to go big then it might be time to give Sharpe some burn, at least in garbage time which I expect that there will be some with a return to big ball.

Herrmann looks great in a suit. He can pose for GQ in some European designed duds.

Time to start working Sharpe in. Garbage time to start and then maybe a few minutes of regular rotation time before the end of the year.

Given all the references in his books to cheezy asian kung fu archetypes, is it a stretch to think tommy p yells hibachi when he’s balling at the y?

Bynum+Acker+Sharpe+Kwame+Plaisted=ftw?

The people saying Amir didn’t play well last night … did you watch the game? He had 4 boards, a block and an assist in the first 7 minutes. Yeah, he also 3 three fouls, but so what? He slowed Howard down, created a few extra possessions and helped set the tone for Detroit owning the glass.

He also played the entire third quarter, picked up just one foul while grabbing 3 boards and a block. And when he doesn’t get rebounds, he still tips the ball to teammates who then get credited with the rebound. (When Curry says he does things that don’t show up in the box score, that’s probably what he means — it’s too bad they don’t award “assists” for rebounds.)

I wasn’t planning on crowing about his good night, but if people are actually going to suggest he played poorly last night, I vehemently disagree.

I don’t want to see any Sharpe. I want to see some Kwam (taken from Rasheed’s yelling “Get that Kwam!” every time a rebound comes within a 15 foot radius of him.) We need his D down low.

Also, I want to see Tayshaun getting some fucking rest. 43 minutes last night. Dude’s going to be dead come playoff time, and we need him.

Also, I have to give Curry credit for not getting hung up on Amir’s fouls. A lot of coaches will pull a guy the moment he gets two fouls in the first quarter — Curry left Amir out there for almost three minutes after Amir got his third foul in the first quarter. Considering he picked up just one more foul over the next 15 minutes, it was a smart decision.

Did Amir play poorly, perhaps not? But could Tayshaun pull down 7 rebounds and block one shot while playing “out of position” as the starting PF – he has been throughout the last 8 to 10 games. He’ll also be more involved offensively. I did watch the game. In the first quarter the only time he spent on Howard was grabbing him so he didn’t dunk. Rasheed guarded him 1 on 1 almost the entire first half. Amir spent more time on him in the 3rd quarter and that’s when Howard went from 1 point to what 14 points, establishing low position. Oh yeah, and didn’t Rashard Lewis (the PF he was guarding) hit three 3’s in the 3rd as well. He taps rebounds? So does Rasheed. So does McDyess. So does Maxiel. So does everyone in the league. This what’s so annoying about Amir – people come on here defending him because he tapped a rebound out once last night. Who cares?

Everyone hates Tayshaun at PF. But what did Amir give us that he hasn’t been? Rebounds? No. Blocks? No. Earnest defense? Tayshaun provides that. “Tayshaun gets more minutes, Amir would outrebound him if he got Tayshaun minutes” But he doesn’t get those minutes and he never probably will.

He didn’t play poorly. But did he play so great that he should now start him again and Allen Iverson should come off the bench… how are people getting that from last night? We beat Orlando and Rip Hamilton didn’t even play. Ah yes, it must be that we need to send Iverson to the bench. That’s the ticket!

As far as Curry leaving him. Sure, I guess. But it’s not like he’s a real starter where if you lose him to foul trouble the team would really be hurt down the stretch.

DaveJ, also like when charlie murphy yells “Rasheed Wallace!” when they get pulled over and weed comes billowing out of the suv.

Amir has six blocks in his last two games (54 minutes). Tayshaun has six blocks in his last 10 games (402 minutes). That’s something, no? Also, Amir is averaging 2.2 offensive boards a game in 16.6 minutes; Tay averages 1.8 in 37.3.

I think Curry made a lot of people nervous early in the season by giving seemingly contradictory statements in the press about minutes, developing the young players, and rest. Then he proceeded to dump Amir from the starting lineup and play the vets on the team sick minutes.

If Curry had said ’We’re going to have to find out what works with AI and what doesn’t and it’s going to take time. I’m going to throw my best five players out there until the New Year and work off that foundation to see what works and what doesn’t’ everybody would say how Curry’s plan is shaping up nicely and the guy is resolute and calm. I chalk up the bumpy reception Michael Curry received after a lot of off-season praise to his balky media skills. I’m happy with 18-11 and the development of Stuckey and Afflalo and Amir looks promising so I’m not complaining.

I’m also giving credit to Tayshaun for that one instance where the press told him that Curry said he didn’t play well and Tay basically said ‘I wish one of the coaches would have told me’. I don’t think it’s something that the public gets to see but I’d bet that Tay got the attention of EVERYBODY in the organization with that and communication since then has been much improved.

Juicebox,

I think it says something that Amir played decent to well even though (as forty pointed out) the magic is a pretty terrible match up for him. I think your frustration about Amir being given more credit for things everyone does (like tapping out rebounds)is understandable, but perhaps a little misplaced.

I think there are two factors:

1) Amir is a freaking maniac. I obviously can’t prove it, but I think he taps more rebounds or otherwise saves posessions more than Prince or any of our big men for that matter. Also, he is really annoying/awkward (a la Varejao with a higher ceiling).

2) Regardless of how accurate my first claim is – I think there is a different standard for Amir. Part of this is some of us just wanting him to be better than he is. However, he is a young, developing player. He has not yet reached his potential. Therefore, it makes sense to give him some minutes and focus on some of the positive intangibles that he brings to the table. Prince is a known quantity. Amir is not. In the end he might be better or he might be worse.

I think it’s safe to say, however, that we’ll have a much better chance to go deep in the playoffs if Amir can turn into a rich man’s Tyson Chandler. That may not happen, but the only way to find out is give him minutes. I think it makes sense to sacrifice Prince’s and/or Rip/Ai’s minutes to work on our front court. Specifically, I think it makes sense to bring AI off the bench because Rip can’t create himself or others. The other option would be to bring Tay off the bench, but that would require either playing Bynum significant minutes or playing Ai and Stuckey heavy minutes.

“As far as Curry leaving him. Sure, I guess. But it’s not like he’s a real starter where if you lose him to foul trouble the team would really be hurt down the stretch.”

That was exactly my point. Curry has made it a point to save McDyess for the second and fourth quarters, so why fret about a guy getting four fouls?

I promise to let this go soon, but I had one more thought …

After watching the starters get worn down in the playoffs the last few years, is playing Tay out of position against bigger opponents at the four (or Rip against stronger opponents at the three) really smart in the long haul?

MW-Yeah, blocks are good. But you really should have chose points. Get this. This is freakin’ ridiculous.

Amir in his last 366 minutes: 106 points
Tayshaun in his last 366 minutes: 104 points

You should have gone with points. Everyone assumes Tayshaun would have to have the offensive advantage, when he really doesn’t.

I’m more or less just playing devil’s advocate because that’s usually more enjoyable.

My entire point originally was that to bench Iverson based on last night’s game, to me, misses the whole point of why we won – which wasn’t because of the play of Amir or Maxiel (whether it was poor, decent or amazing). I think Iverson and Maxiel should start, honestly. And Prince should come off the bench. But to have our first quality win in some time, and have Rip Hamilton not play in it, and then everyone on here call for Rip to start and Iverson not to – that doesn’t make sense. Prince can create his own offense – so why not Prince.

At your second post, like I said before, Tay shouldn’t start – but the point about Rip and stronger players – I don’t really feel that is the case. In the East, Joe Johnson is stronger Marvin Williams, Bogans is probably just as strong as Turkoglu – plus he just wants to shoot 3’s and doesn’t play back to the basket.

As far as LeBron and Pierce I think Hamilton is the stronger defender than Prince is on those two despite the size and strength.

Fact is, isn’t possible that Hamilton is just as strong and physical as Prince, probably more so…

“That was exactly my point. Curry has made it a point to save McDyess for the second and fourth quarters, so why fret about a guy getting four fouls?”

Right. And if they’re smart fouls, of which I’ve noticed more of, then no biggie. If he knows that he’s not the guy they’re going to run with in crunch time, which Antonio obviously is, then he might as well use his fouls if necessary.

This stuff, I can kick around, but when I hear McCosky say things to the effect that Amir will NEVER develop an offensive game (which he did again today on WDFN), I totally disagree. He might not be some down-low, one-man wrecking crew (or one trick pony) like Dwight Howard, or possess an unblockable turnaround like Rasheed, but there’s flashes of an accurate jumpshot and range. That’s something that players can actually work on and develop (unless you’re Ben Wallace).

Oh, and he’s 21, but sure, the ship has sailed as far as his offensive development. biggest eye roll in the history of the universe

Tay playing so many minutes is again just demonstrating that we STILL have no actual back-up for him, despite several years of the DBB community bemoaning this fact. We have a revolving door at backup SF, and Walter Herrmann looks to be joining the Hayes and Delfino in the Pistons’ SF Irrelevance Hall of Fame.

Prince’s minutes might have been skewed by the small-ball experiment, but 44 minutes last night suggests that the trend might continue. And for somebody that we’re always concerned about wearing down in the playoffs, it’s striking that he’s already averaging 5 more minutes a game than last year (again the small-ball experiment may have skewed his MPG so far).

Hermann is a capable backup. If you give Hermann minutes he could be consistent.

That’s the thing, though, it’s not happening. Herrmann intrigues the hell out of me, but it just doesn’t look like his chance to shine is going to be here. Things can always change, though.

And knowing MC, things might change tomorrow, at the rate he tinkers.

Keegan,

Welcome to the “Dwight Howard is a one trick pony fanclub”

Regards,
Boney (founder)

I lol’d hard.

I put that in there just for you. It’s true, but it’s one damn awesome trick.

Where were you the day small ball died?

if Dwight Howard developed a 10 foot jumper, he’d be unstoppable

“Petey- I think your analysis of Joe D handing out money to cushion player ego is way off.”

I don’t the contract extension was about cushioning his ego. It was about cushioning his pocketbook.

Dumars understood that bringing Iverson in was going to negatively impact Rip’s numbers, and that Rip still had one more contract to get. By extending him at full rate, he made sure that Rip wouldn’t be worrying about the dollars when his numbers decline.

It was smart business for Dumars in a number of ways.

- It made sure that Rip wouldn’t be worrying about his pocketbook when he gets moved to the sixth man role.

- And even more importantly, it reinforced the leaguewide impression of Dumars as a guy who financially takes care of players who produce for him. That’s an important asset for Dumars as a GM, as it makes Detroit a more attractive destination for free agents to sign.

The extension for Rip was good morally, and sometimes being good morally is good business. I’m sure that McDyess was more sure about re-signing with Detroit after the trade knowing that there were no worries about Dumars making him financially whole next year, for example.

“And if you believe Chauncey, they did the deal with Rip before the trade to keep Rip from signing somewhere else in the off-season because his best friend was no longer on the team.”

I’m quite familiar with that interview, and I don’t believe Chauncey. I don’t think Rip could’ve gotten as much as a free agent as Dumars gave him.

First, I hope small ball died, because it won’t win in the playoffs. Juicebox, you make a lot of good points, but if you’re right that Amir, Maxy, and Kwame really aren’t that good, then Detroit is in big trouble. I love ‘Sheed and ’Dyess, but two aging bigs, one who doesn’t really have a post offense and the other who does but often avoids it, ain’t getting us past the Cavs or Boston.

Second, re Tayshaun, co-sign Keegan’s point about the (everlasting saga of) a lack of a backup, worry about minutes, and especially worry about minutes if he’s playing the 4.

Third, re Curry, was last month a brilliant manuever to show the problems with small ball so Rip or AI would be willing to come off the bench? Look, I understand why Curry would hesitate to ask Rip or AI to be on the second unit, but let’s see what he actually does when Rip gets healthy before we all go from believing we could out-coach MC to believing that MC is a misunderstood genius.

As long as Amir is starting I will let his play do the talking.

One other comment though regarding using Dyess in the 2nd and 4th quarters.

I think that is situational.

If the Pistons have a good size lead going into the 4th quarter and Amir is playing well with fouls to give I can see him getting 4th quarter burn. It will help built him up to get used to heavier minutes and give him more experience which he still needs.

It will also save on Dyess body.

I can also see Amir getting some burn in the 4th quarter if he is playing well and it is the 2nd game of a back to back or even if it is he first if the next game’s opponent is a tougher opponent than the current games.

So if Amir plays well I think we will start to see more and more of him in the 4th quarter, maybe not so quickly or so much initially but over the next 50 games it will be up to him.

i loved his aggressiveness last night of laying those two fouls on Howard early on. Amir is getting stronger and I think those two fouls slowed Howard down a bit in the first half.

Second half Howard regenerated and Amir really wanted to stay on the court. It is a learning process of knowing when to give a foul and let your opponent score uncontested.

“Prince’s minutes might have been skewed by the small-ball experiment, but 44 minutes last night suggests that the trend might continue.”

Tay SHOULD be averaging the most minutes of anyone on the squad. There’s no reason he can’t handle 40mpg. Given the roster, he’s the most indispensable guy to have on the floor.

Once Rip gets back, we can play him at the ‘3’ for 12mpg, and that’ll give Tay a bit of rest.

I love the IDEA of Herrmman. We definitely could use another 3-pt shooter to space the floor for Iverson. But I also understand why Herrmman gets no tick. Everytime he gets on the floor, he immediately blows a defensive assignment. Herrmman needs to show he can follow defense schemes in order to stay on the floor.

FWIW Curry will always be an idiot for DNP-CD Maxiell.

Mike Payne,

don’t you realize that the general manager deserves to pad your pocketbook for what you’ve done for the team in the past rather than how you can help the team in the future?

Regards,
Ben Wallace, Mehmet Okur, Corliss Williamson, Mike James, Lindsey Hunter

“if you’re right that Amir, Maxy, and Kwame really aren’t that good, then Detroit is in big trouble.”

Detroit has two main worries going forward if we’re going to compete with the elite.

1) Finding more 3-pt shooting
2) Solving the Issue of the Third Big

These worries can either be solved via the current roster, or via bringing someone in. But they need to be solved somehow in order to compete with the elite this spring.

Obviously, the nicest way to solve worry number 2 would be for Amir/Max/Kwame to surprise to the upside. But the Issue of the Third Big is something we’re all going to be thinking lots about going forward.

Rip’s salary wouldn’t go down as his numbers decline anyway Petey… having the option to opt out after this season (likely another one of 17+ ppg and near 50% fg) would allow him to lock in at least a 4 year deal somewhere in the neighborhood of $45m+ with a player/team option for the 4th year.

3 year extension is only 1 year longer than his current contract only he can’t opt out after this season.

Rip is worth the salary he makes, unlike AI.

Boney,

Those guys all got paid. The issue isn’t who signs your paychecks, but merely that you don’t get financially screwed. I don’t think Ben Wallace’s heirs are going to be upset at Joe Dumars.

One more thing, Curry is not a good coach as he is a rookie and is still learning. He strikes me as the polar opposite to Flip in that he tinkers and changes his mind far too often. Maybe he does have a plan and is being truthful when he claims that he knows what he is doing. I smell bullshit however and will not be convinced until I see two things: A long win streak and consistent (common sense) rotation.

I am an no arm chair expert. I usually have blind faith in coaches and accept and support their gameplans. When a coach like Curry raises so many red flags with his decisions such as not playing Maxiell (no I won’t drop it) then close scrutiny and a healthy dose of skepticism is warranted.

“When a coach like Curry raises so many red flags with his decisions such as not playing Maxiell (no I won’t drop it)”

I’ve got Curry’s back on that one.

Max has generally looked awful so far this year. He makes one bad decision per every ninety seconds of court time.

(Though I will note that he had one play last night that left me in awe. He was defending Gortat in the post, tried to front him, got beat, and managed to do a FULL ORBIT of Gortat to come all the way around him and block the shot.)

“And for what it’s worth, I think his Dale & Thomas popcorn company is doing well.”

He’s the Thomas in “Dale & Thomas”? The man has some good taste in popcorn, if not point guards.

“Full Orbit of Gortat” sounds like the best name for my hypothetical 50s sci-fi movie featuring the Insuperable Gortat.

“or in the same way that Dave Chappel shouts, "Kobe!" when shooting condoms into a garbage can”

Or in the same way Isiah shouts “I am the king of sadness!” when beating a prostitute to death with a bag of Twice-As-Nice Chocolate DrizzleCorn.

Petey – welcome to DBB and all that, but you gotta watch trashin’ Max. He’s a sacred cow ’round here. A cow that eats babies.

Can we please never again discuss the complicated and devious machinations behind the Rip Hamilton extension? I realize that most of what is posted here is conjecture by necessity, but this pretending to be able to read minds thing is ridiculous. We’re almost as bad as a sunday morning political talk show at this point.

“Petey – welcome to DBB and all that, but you gotta watch trashin’ Max. He’s a sacred cow ’round here. A cow that eats babies.”

I’m perfectly prepared to fall in love with Amir/Max/Kwame if they produce. (And Amir has been doing a good job of seducing me over the past few games.) But the Issue of the Third Big ain’t no joke.

Max can do ridiculous things, but if he’s going to be a dependable cog this spring, he needs to start producing some mistake-free minutes…

“Can we please never again discuss the complicated and devious machinations behind the Rip Hamilton extension? I realize that most of what is posted here is conjecture by necessity, but this pretending to be able to read minds thing is ridiculous. We’re almost as bad as a sunday morning political talk show at this point.”

Joey D is a genius. Trying to read his mind is half the fun of being a Pistons fan.

“Max has generally looked awful so far this year. He makes one bad decision per every ninety seconds of court time.”

I don’t know what you’re looking at, but the stats do not bear your observations. He deserves consistent minutes, and isn’t getting them because Curry is confused.

Here is an interesting stat for those that look at Hoops stats.

Pistons players individual floor time stats including win percentage ranked by win percentage. I believe that the numbers speak for themselves.

http://www.82games.com/0809/0809DET1.HTM

“Here is an interesting stat for those that look at Hoops stats. Pistons players individual floor time stats including win percentage ranked by win percentage. I believe that the numbers speak for themselves.”

One note I’ll add, since it is my One Big Idea:

As those numbers show, Iverson is +1.4 per 48min, and Afflalo is +2.3 per 48min.

But Iverson and Afflalo on the floor TOGETHER are +10.6 per 48min…

anyway you slice it i think either A.I. or rip should come off the bench and tayshaun should stay at the 3 because stuckey deserves to be the starting point guard the rest of the season.

I agree w/ the comment about Max not deserving minutes and I regress it’s hard to say who should/n’t when small ball is in play. Seems difficult to knock him or anyone else as of late. AI off the bench. Last 2min’s of game are all about substitutions anyway so they all will get their shot at the W! Hopefully we all will look back at December and laugh! STONES in ’09 ’10 ’11…………you get the point!

Rip is a good value. He’s not an explosive player so you don’t have to worry so much about him losing half a step. He’s more of a distance runner who can shoot. And I expect Rip to mellow into a cagey vet who can play into his late 30s and stay a complimentary piece on a great team. Rip has improved his entire career and if he adds a bit of stand and shoot ability to his move and shoot game he’s going to be deadly camping out beyond the three as an old man.

MC must have turned Langlois on to the DBB community today…

http://truebluepistons.blogspot.com/

@Keegan:
LOL- everyone’s tired of complaints, but jeeez, I love how Curry talks like it’s his discovery that we’re good when we play a normal pair of bigs in the frontcourt, with Tay at the 3. Yes Michael Curry, that has been the case for years… Also, I like Langlois and he does a good job of giving the Pistons organization POV, but come on… everyone knows that playing Tay tons of minutes at PF will be harder on him physically than playing SF’s full-time, you can’t honestly write an article that makes that fact sound surprising.

Come on Gabe, MC had an epiphany. It came to him when he was buying another awesome, powder-blue, pinstriped suit.

@Keegan:
I thought it came to him when he was admiring himself in the mirror, trying on his checkered grey blazer: http://www.need4sheed.com/images/sheed_curry.jpg

Hey, any man comfortable enough to rock suits like that can do whatever the hell he wants, as far as I’m concerned.

Small ball should die you can’t beat the good teams playing small ball the pistons need points in the paint not jump shots all the time!!! the pistons still need to get a big man to help rasheed and dice brown is not the answer amir is to small and so is the max man they can help but the pistons need one big man!!to go along with rasheed and dice and amir and the max man they have to go to the hole layup is what wins championships not jump shots and we need to rebound the pill much more then we do! what happen to walter sharpe tay is going to need some help you can’t burn him out!as for who is going to come off the bench someone has to take one for the team if you want to win!!!

Garnett just intentionally sucker-elbowed lamarcus aldridge at the end of a play. Good news is celtics lose. Bad news is garnett did not suffer a career ending injury in the game. The league seriously has to crack down on this douchebag.

CAPELLLL!!!!!!!!!!!!

Several points:

No one writing on a blog should ever put themselves in the same category as Pynchon. I know it was tongue-in-cheek, but c’mon, you didn’t include ultra-brief character sketches or a discussion of advanced calculus and/or scatalogical paraphilia. Just writing a long sentence doesn’t merit a comparison.

Fred W. Capel: take a breath, you get more than one post per day around here (see: Boney, Petey, Gabe, kevin s., etc.) That said, I don’t hear a lot of support for small ball around here.

Things are getting better. When one of your team’s problems is that you’ve got six or seven legit starters, it could be worse. This will work itself out.

As long as we’re making literary-stylistic comparisons, Capel reminds me of a raw, unrefined Kerouac. Sal Paradise on amphetamines.

@Juicebox:
“That’s the craziest thing I’ve read on here since… what time was that post where someone wrote that Amir Johnson was just as good, if not better, than Tyson Chandler.”
Crazy is not crazy when its foundations are in statistical facts.

Feel free to counter.

I suppose that makes Garrett the Vonnegut of the group: “I like slam dunk shots.” Here is my drawing of an asshole:

*

“As long as we’re making literary-stylistic comparisons, Capel reminds me of a raw, unrefined Kerouac. Sal Paradise on amphetamines.”

I’ll buy that for a dollar!

“No one writing on a blog should ever put themselves in the same category as Pynchon.”

FWIW, I actually am Thomas Pynchon, and you know nothing of my work. How you ever got to teach a course in anything is totally amazing.

“FWIW, I actually am Thomas Pynchon, and you know nothing of my work. How you ever got to teach a course in anything is totally amazing.”

Well, I feel like the entire DBB community should feel very honored that you’ve broken your decades-long aversion to the public spotlight in this forum. Welcome.

Hollinger picks up on the chatter:

Pistons observers are noticing that the defense has been much tidier with Detroit playing a traditional big lineup during the past two games. This has some pondering whether Hamilton should come off the bench once he returns, playing behind Allen Iverson and Rodney Stuckey. It’s a reasonable question — Hamilton has struggled offensively this season, and having both Stuckey and Iverson together in the backcourt means that neither is forced to be a full-time point guard … One also has to think it might be a better way of getting Hamilton the volume of shots he’s accustomed to, albeit compressed into a shorter time period.

Also worth noting that I saw an Amir interview on NBA TV this week that convinced me he at least understands his role. He kept talking about how he had “to be a garbageman” to get tick, and how his job was to “pick up the trash”.

Forty: I saw the Garnett elbow(s). What a douche. The Portland announcers are HILARIOUS, though — such blatant homers, it’s really entertaining. Especially if you hate Boston.
Mike Payne: I like slam dunk shots.

Starting Prince at the four, does give us the ability to start him later in the year (or in the playoffs) with some significant time under his belt, should t he need arise. I am not attempting in anyway to compare Tayshuan Prince to Earvin Johnson, but sometimes, when a player with an exceptional Basketball IQ plays out of position, great things can happen-http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYNDWaEmqto. Prince has shown he has the requisite Basketball IQ to effectively play the four IF needed, I like the idea…in small doses.

The Garbageman is a great name for a future star piston. I hope it catches on, although I can’t see Blaha or Kelser ever saying it.

@MP:
“Amir, 36 minutes:
10.4ppg, 10.5 rpg (4.8 orpg) 1 spg, 2.7 bpg, TS% .595

Chandler, 36 minutes:
10 ppg, 9.3 rpg (3.9 orpg) .4 spg, 1.8 bpg, TS% .553

Amir PER: 16.43

Chanlder PER: 13.48"

Alex Acker, 36 minutes:
16.8 ppg, 4.8rpg, 2.4 assists, 4.8 steals, 0 turnovers, 0 fouls

Tracy McGrady, 36 minutes:
17.2 ppg, 5.3rpg, 5.3 assists, 1.2 steals, 2.2 turnovers, 1.1 fouls

Holy crap Mike Payne, we practically have a younger Tracy McGrady just wasting away on our bench. You should show these amazing per-36 minutes stats to Curry, pronto. Seriously, we could tell him he’s like T-Mac plus he’ll lead the league in steals. I’m super jazzed about Alex Acker’s potential now.

Chandler last year played 2,783 minutes last year and over 14,000 in his career. Amir played 764 (almost entirely meaningless) minutes last year and is just over 1,00 total. Now, are we seriously going to argue about the fact that the per 36 minutes comparison is obviously skewered due to the minute diferential. I hope not.

Just to be clear. I like Amir. I’ve written quite a few times I think (with the excpetion of games when we’re playing elite big men and the “real Rasheed” shows up) that he’s the only player on the entire court that shows the defensive energy that I would like to see. I’d rather have him than Tyson Chandler. I don’t want us to make any more moves. I want either Amir or Maxiel in the starting lineup (I just don’t see how that automatically translates into our leading scorer/assist guy to be the one that gets benched – especially when the best argument for him to be the one is that Rip Hamitlon can’t create his own offense. Oh so, because Rip has a limited offensive game he should start and Iverson shouldn’t?).

So, no need to make this into a big ordeal. We both like Amir. We both want to see him get more/consistent minutes. The only reason I still like the pistons is because of the young guys. But you can’t go around comparing Amir to Chandler based on per 36 stats. And it’s also frustrating that everyone is clinking champagne flutes over his 7 rebound, 1 block performance and criticising Prince at PF – depsite the fact that he’s been putting up those numbers every single game since playing PF. So, what did he do that was so great? Now, me saying that doesn’t mean I hate Amir. It means you can’t praise one guy for doing less than another guy just because his name is different.

P.S. Can I be the Paul Auster? I don’t write like him. I just want to. Great, thanks.

Whoa, JB, you just used a specific statistic to make a point that would seem ridiculous otherwise. That’s crazy! But stats never lie, and when making any argument, they trump all. Aker for MVP!

btw, camby with 24 boards last night? bonkers. Also, bucks knocking off the spurs last night? I don’t want to find it, but my calls to not sleep on the bucks are looking spot on about now.

@Juicebox:
“So, no need to make this into a big ordeal.”

Yeah, we both like Amir, no sweat. We don’t need to make an ordeal out of this. But it doesn’t represent you well when a) you take those stats out of context and b) push that line of thinking to its logical extreme.

What do I mean by out of context?

“Chandler last year played 2,783 minutes last year and over 14,000 in his career. Amir played 764 (almost entirely meaningless) minutes last year and is just over 1,00 total. Now, are we seriously going to argue about the fact that the per 36 minutes comparison is obviously skewered due to the minute diferential. I hope not.”

Scroll up, you’ll note that the per 36 numbers I pulled were for this season. This season, Amir has played half as many minutes as Chandler: Amir has 366 to Chandler’s 726. That isn’t just an adequate sample, its more than enough to project an honest comparison.

When Acker plays half as many minutes as McGrady in a season, then we can talk. Until then, taking that to its logical extreme after mis-reading my statistical comparison? Just looks a bit foolish. I say it misrepresents you because your insight and analysis here on DBB is always worth its weight in gold— I always genuinely enjoy reading your comments.

Amir played 764 (almost entirely meaningless)<<

That statement is just not true and represents revisionist NBA history.

The majority of Amir’s minutes last year were played with the Zoo Crew in the 1st, 2nd and 3rd periods, long before the games were decided.

Even taking it just from this season though I still don’t like the per36 – unless we’re comparing players that average somewhere in the 24-40+ minutes a game. Fact is, Amir’s number might look like that if he were to play around 36 minutes, but they could be much lower, or, possibly even much higher. I like to stick to the actual statistics. The Acker to McGrady of course is taking it to the logical extreme, but that was the point. Obviously, I don’t really think it’s a true comparison. Sidebar: McGrady’s per36 numbers kind of suck.

Bottomline, we both take Amir over Chandler. The idea of adding Chandler when we have for sure two, in my opinion three, bigs that aren’t getting enough minutes would be ridiculous unless the upgrade was undeniable – which Chandler clearly is not. A lot of times I’ll attack Amir because I expect more – I expect him to put up more blocks and rebounds than Prince does playing PF – when that doesn’t happen I find it more sensible to attack than defend him – despite the fact I’m a fan of his.

I’m still blown away at the Amir 106 points, Tayshaun 104 points in their last 366 minutes played – that bears reiteration for those that want to see Tayshaun remain a starter at any position on the floor.

@Mike. I used the term “meaningless” to represent the fact he received 20 DNP-CD’s and never played more than 10 minutes in game that wasn’t a blowout one way or another. When I wrote meaningless that wasn’t to insinuate he didn’t play at all. They weren’t meaningless in the world that he did play and everyone that play counts. But I think meaningless is fair to describe the minutes of the guy who ranked 10th in terms of minutes last year. Of course, he should have played much more – but he didn’t.

@Mike Payne – you bastard. You made coffee shoot out my nose with that Vonnegut “*” bit. Well played, sir.

I’d like to say we might be the smarted blog in basketball. Just a thought.

While Chandler’s been struggling this year, one of the biggest reasons for his breakout in NO was his ability to play good defense without fouling. That let him stay on the floor longer, and he’s been able to anchor the team defense while rarely getting into foul trouble.

Amir has better per minute stats this season, and having seen quite a bit of both, I will agree that he’s been better when he’s on the floor this season (although again, the comparison is with Chandler on a down year). But as far as overall impact in this comparison goes, Chandler’s ability to do similar things while logging much heavier minutes shouldn’t be discounted, especially when one of the biggest knocks on Amir is that he can’t stay on the floor because of foul trouble.