Good for him. That’s around $4.25 million USD/yr, and the chance for Los to be a star on his team. Although I would have liked to have seen him get a good chance in the NBA, I’m glad he’s getting a nice payday in Europe…

And Posey signs with New Orleans. 4 years, $25 million.

Thats some serious money to be dished out by a second-tier Euro league team no matter what the exchange rate is.

1 euro = 1.58 USD, so he’s actually getting paid around $13.5 million USD. Correct me if I’m wrong.

Either way, Delfino is smart for accepting foreign money instead of our toilet paper we call the dollar.

I’m sorry to go off topic, but would you guys consider posting a Save Tiger Stadium link somewhere on your blog? The link is here: http://www.savetigerstadium.org/

I’ve blogged the issue here: http://gautham.typepad.com/spottieottiedopaliscious/2008/07/save-tiger-stad.html

I know many of your readers are also Tigers fans who grew up going to games at Michigan and Trumbull. We only have two weeks to save the field, please help us get the word out.

Woohoo. Perhaps Europe is slowly on its way to challenging Mr. Stern’s neighborhood. I’m anxiously awaiting Sauce’s dance of celebration. Brandon Jennings, Carlos Delfino … things are on the upswing for Euro leagues. Reminds me of the old 90s back-and-forth talent raids in wrestling. That being said, I expect none of you to understand what I mean by that.

Thank God… I got sick to my stomach every time he took the court. Maybe more not-quite-good-enough NBA players will go abroad and spare us from having to watch them miss dunks and wide-open shots like good ol’ Carlos used to do in Detroit.

“And Posey signs with New Orleans. 4 years, $25 million.”

Yeah, but that’s only like $15 million Euro.

Thank God. That means he isn’t coming back here. That regression not progression.

Ok, was it just me or did Delfino not look like he used to wear black eye liner like the Rock stars do??? I’m just sayin. He was quite a perrrrrty fellow. And I don’t mean that as a compliment either. He’ll have fun in Europe though.

HOOPSWORLD is reporting that it might be a possibility the Pistons start talks with Chicago for Luol Deng. Tayshaun was the name being mentioned in exchange. Nice.

Sorry, here’s the link.

http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_id=9502

UTEP2STEP: I’m confused. I know that Deng has better numbers than Tay across the board (I’m reticent to call them “significantly” better), but he had 2 minor injuries this season that caused him to miss 19 games. That’s a lot of games, and 2 minor injuries in the same season is either shitty protection of ones’ body in game and in preparation or it’s a case of bad luck (I’m going with the former). He also tore a ligament in his wrist during his rookie season and missed the last ten regular season games and all 6 playoff games (the Bulls went up 2-0 then lost 4 straight in their first round series that year, losing Games 5 and 6 by a total 5 points).

Don’t get me wrong, I think Deng is better than Tay, but I can’t exactly feel at ease with this move when Tay hasn’t missed an NBA game since the time I was still a virgin (I thought it was best if I waited until I could vote, okay!). Maybe I’m mistaken, but what about this doesn’t scream of “no significant impact” to our team in terms of upgrading skill? We’re also ripping the seams of the team’s chemistry with this move for LUOL DENG. Who is Rip going to throw alley-oops to now? We’d better get at least a future first rounder within two years of this deal or I’m utterly baffled at this rumor.

That being said, I’m going to exhibit some bias against this “Mr. Bill Ingram”‘s credentials when he simply assumes the Clippers are out of the running for Iguodala. They just got Camby for almost (or possibly) literally nothing and they still have a roster costing about 7.5 million dollars less than ours is right now (without considering any contracts to our draft picks or free agents). Methinks they want to win and methinks they ain’t afraid to pay for it, especially if it means spiting the 76ers.

Anybody have thoughts on the continued McGrady rumors or the rumor out of Oakland that we’re offering Billups for Biendrins?

I don’t really mind either trade. As I’ve said before, I think the McGrady deal is probably the best “superstar” deal we can realistically make. I like Biendrins, but not at the price of Billups. While I think that Billups is probably the worst offender when it comes to the “flip the switch” mentality, I don’t see how you trade a top tier point guard and not have a significant drop off.

I don’t see a deal out there right now that makes us a better team. I have a hard time seeing a major deal going down and think we’re probably bringing the same crew back and waiting until the deadline to see what’s out there.

Who knows what the Clips are gonna do but in response to the Tay rumor, I’d do it…..twice…yesterday. Deng is a more capable scorer, younger with more upside. I’m on the very small bandwagon that believes Tayshaun is an overrated defender who’s reputaion rests on some highlight reel (incredible) blocks. The guy gets punished by meaty 3’s. Not that he’s a terrible defender, just not the all-world, super stopper he gets credit for. As far as chemistry goes, that got thrown out the window when we walked off the court, AT HOME,vs Boston. Changes!!!!! Ahh, we all forget so quickly, times heals all wounds they say…but in this case it shouldn’t. Time for a shake-up.

LB, -1 for too much information. We’re all friends here, but dude, if you kept it in your pants until college that might be something to keep quiet about. Not because it wasn’t the right choice for you, but because Boney is probably going to seriously make fun of you and make us all a little uncomfortable.

Yeah, you might have wanted to hold on to that nug of info for a true hot-button, panic moment, not a rumored Tay/Luol Deng trade.

I guess we shouldn’t really take this rumor seriously until McCoskey writes an article about how it’s nonsense anyway. I truly believe McCoskey is really just the Pistons director of PR disguised in some sort of high-tech, meat suit to make him appear as a rotund, mustachioed, beat writer.

UTEP2STEP, Other Matt: I believe that if you can’t laugh at yourself, you’re in for a long, miserable life. I thought it was kind of a funny remark to draw attention to the point that Tayshaun’s game played stats read “82” for the last 5 seasons, which is so important to note. Sorry if it didn’t go over as well as I had intended.

UTEP2STEP: Don’t disagree for a moment with your evaluation of Tay. Put me on your bandwagon for simply that evaluation, but vis-a-vis Deng, Tay has never missed a game, let alone a game due to injury in the five seasons since he got playing time. Deng has missed 40 regular season games (plus 6 post-season) in 4 seasons due to these four injuries (in chronological order from earliest): sprained ankle, torn ligament in wrist, left Achilles’ tendinitis, recurring left Achilles’ tendinitis. You really wanna sacrifice Tayshaun’s invaluable Iron-Man status (at the position where I think most/all DBB would agree that we’re the thinnest) for a guy with that track record (Arnie Kander not withstanding)? I don’t. No way.

Deng was part of that weird vortex o’ death in Chicago last season. Virtually all of their players were in poor game shape for whatever reason. Luol Deng would be a very nice piece for us, and I think there is room to revert to his play two yeard ago, if not a notch above that.

I like Tay more than Deng. A better defender and glue guy, even if Deng is more athletic and a better scorer. Deng isn’t the answer, I’d rather keep the Palace Prince.

I do want the T-Mac deal to happen, however. This team doesn’t have the desire anymore, and bringing in a hungry star could push the ’Stons over the hump.

Billups is an excellent PG, but I feel that he could care less about winning another chip, same with Sheed. It seems to me like it wold be a nice bonus for them, but not their main concern. They do want to win, but they no longer have anything to prove. T-Mac does, and he is talented enough to elevate this team beyond the Celts, who will not repeat. (Posey was a HUGE part of that team, he hit as many clutch threes as Pierce and Allen combined). Bring T-Mac to the D!

kevin: His play is great when he’s healthy (though I’m iffy on a healthy Deng over a healthy Tay w/Pistons chemistry comparison anyway). I don’t think Chicago sucking or anything else has thing to do with the fact that the guy has had 4 injuries over 2 different seasons of a 4-year career three years apart that have caused him to miss about 20 games in each of those two seasons. He missed 19 games last year for left Achilles’ tendinitis, which occurred twice over this past season (ie: that’s chronic of the non-marijuana kind). I’m not doctor, but I don’t see this guy doing a lot of 80+ game seasons in his career. I think most Pistons would beat his ass if he missed 20 games on them with that crap.

Bringing in Deng for Tay is completely balls-to-the-wall crazy, IMO. I’m not saying that such a trade is statistically stupid, it just wouldn’t make either team any better. They’re the same damn player!

I’m a big Deng fan, always have been. When he’s healthy (and save for one season, he’s always healthy), he’s unreal. I remember watching his work-out tapes last summer, he was prepping for one hell of a contract year. I had him pegged as an all star (and failed miserably on that prediction).

Funny enough, I have to agree with one DBB reader here whom I normally don’t agree with, Boney. I do agree that Rip’s performance may inhibit a larger impact by Tay. Bring in Deng, I think the same may happen. In Chicago, Deng has been in a position to be a first, even second option. In Detroit, he’d be relegated to a 3rd option at best…

Deng for Tay is like trading, well, I’m having a hard time coming up with a metaphor for how similar their style is. Point being, this trade idea isn’t bad, its just balls-to-the-wall crazy.

MP: Two seasons, buddy. Two seasons, 3 different injuries and a 4th sabbatical spending time tending to a re-aggravation of a previous injury.

Wow, I could have lived without seeing LB write about losing his virginity.

But seriously, I do agree with LB that this would not be a good trade. I don’t think that they’re the same player (Deng hardly takes any 3 pointers, for example), but they’re pretty similar. There’s no compelling reason to do this trade, and I think that Joe D. will want a compelling reason to do any trade.

Deng has a much more effective offensive game, and is pretty low on the injury risk meter, which isn’t to say he doesn’t register.

I’m not hellbent on this trade, but I like it better than any of the other proposals (2 for T-mac of Josh Smith, Chauncey for Biedrins) that are floating out there.

I don’t like to see a Beidrins/CB swap either and I agree that CB has the turn on the switch mentality that filters to everyone else since he’s the PG. But I also think the NBA is going towards a more “quick” PG, drive & dish mentality. With the defense rule changes a while back, it’s nearly impossible to keep anyone in front of you if your a PG. People keep saying Billups size and can post up smaller guards which is true. But it’s not like CB does it on a consistent basis, he’d rather jack 3’s up. Look at the couple of games in the series vs. boston when Perkins got it going or earlier in the season when Big Baby.. the bulk were from rebounds and having other D-help on penetration.

I’ve watched a couple of summer league games and one on webcast. Just one question: Why the hell is Samb jacking up 15 footers when he’s 7’ 1" and nearly the biggest player in the summer league? I want this guy on the blocks yesterday, today and tomorrow. Once he’s got a consistent low post move(s), then work on your 15 footer. Besides, 15 feet away, how the hell does he rebound? Playing on the blocks eating people up and gaining confidence is what I want him doing.

In other news. The Pistons loss another chance to get a backup in James Posey. Where was Joe D when this deal was going? Was he asleep at the wheel again?

Wow – Mavs are going after Artest. Kidd, Artest, Dirk, and Diop would be a pretty strong lineup, especially if it doesn’t cost them Howard.

James Posey is like an Hummer… Too big, overpriced, and destined to break down before your done making the payments.

“People keep saying Billups size and can post up smaller guards which is true. But it’s not like CB does it on a consistent basis, he’d rather jack 3’s up.”

“Posting up” is a bit of a misnomer. Chauncey uses his size to draw fouls on smaller guards, who otherwise give up an easy chipshot. It’s not like you want your point guard shooting turnaround fadeaways.

As for the contention that he would rather jack up threes, among the top ten PGs in the NBA who shoot better than 33% from the three point line (in other words, those who have a three point shot in their arsenal) Billups ranked 4th in the ration of FTA to 3PA.

Deron Williams was number one and Paul was number two. The Calderon/Ford tandem (I combined them into one) was number three. All of those players are much younger, and none are even close to being available.

Deng gets points for being my friend’s cousin and hooking me up with great seats when they played the Lakers. But, I can’t see him being an upgrade over Tay.

MarkButter, I’m okay with Samb shooting jumpers (as long as they’re good shots of course). I don’t think he’ll ever have the bulk to be a low-post banger. So if he can hit fadeaways, jumpers, get putbacks, and throw in an occasional hook shot, it’s all icing.

Deng had a better statistical season than Prince, and that was on an off-year where everyone on the Bulls was woeful on offense. Looking ahead, even if he could just replicate his season from two years ago, he’d be an upgrade. He has All-Star potential, and he doesn’t disappear on offense like Prince tends to. Defensively, he obviously doesn’t have Prince’s length, but from what I’ve seen, he handles bulkier SFs better. He’s also a better rebounder.

If they’re actually considering this, I wouldn’t be agaisnt it. There’s a lot to say for what Prince adds as a glue guy, but I think Deng would be an upgrade. As far as I know, none of his injuries have been really debilitating, and there’s the Kander factor anyway.

Also, Posey isn’t worth that much, especially since the deal goes until he’s in his mid 30s. I hope NO doesn’t think he’s the answer, since they still have a hole at SG, and they need some better depth in general. He’ll be helpful for the next two or so years, but he’s going to be deadweight afterwards.

If Deng is an upgrade over Prince, he isn’t much of an upgrade. Luol has done plenty of “disappearing” too, but we often discount the guy we see every day and overrate the guy we only see in highlights.

Speaking of overrated, I’m with Kevin about Posey. He’s another nice role player cashing in on championship buzz, but at that salary people will expect a little more than he can deliver. He’ll be considered a cap slug within 2 seasons.

Curse you, KW!

Prince for Deng is crazy talk. I’ll be pissed if that happens.

Prince has done everything right as a Piston and he’s the youngest of the starters. Deng is a nice player and I like his rebounding but I’ll be stunned if Joe Dumars thinks the solution is simply swapping SFs with Chicago. It’s kind of hard to fault Prince for not being more aggressive when the team has preached to him since day one to be a complimentary player. If they are disappointed in Prince’s offense then move some of the other offensive minded players and surround HIM with complimentary players. Deng for a SG or PF I can see but the team is already short depth at SF.

Swapping Deng for Prince isn’t the magic bullet, but I think it’s an improvement, especially long-term. Deng is 23, Prince is 28. I really thought Prince might make the jump to become more of a force, but he hasn’t and he’s at the age where what you see is pretty much what you get. Deng, on the other hand, knows what it’s like to be a team’s first or second option, and what he gives up on defense (which isn’t as much as Prince’s rep suggests it is) he makes up on offense, in my eyes.

Kevin S: I agree “posting up” might be a misnomer, but I don’t recall alot plays where CB posted up on a consistent basis. He did it here and there, but he should have been doing it all game long against Ronda, er, Rondo.

I also think because of the core and Rip, he doesn’t get as many opportunities as some others but against many PGs he should be posting up all day long. Given his size advantage against many, it shuold be what we said in HS:

La Tee Da
Loop de Loop
take Chauncey’s guy to the hoop

@Mike Payne:
“Bringing in Deng for Tay is completely balls-to-the-wall crazy, IMO. I’m not saying that such a trade is statistically stupid, it just wouldn’t make either team any better. They’re the same damn player!”

1. Don’t drink and type.

2. You might want to take a step back and review the situation, especially in light of the points shown in white above.

I’ve never addressed myself on DBB before. Feels kind of funny… Anyway, your points Matt, regarding age and Tay’s missing breakout have steered me back to take another look.

I just compared each player’s 82games.com stats, which on the team level suggest that Prince is superior. On the player stats, they’re quite similar, with Deng as a better rebounder. Reading the stats didn’t help me change my opinion from above.

But say they are the same player. Say they are both Tayshaun Prince. I’d trade Tayshaun Prince at 28 for Tayshaun Prince at 23 in a heartbeat. As long as it’ll give him a new window from which to hit that breakout we’ve been waiting for from Tay…

LB, I was trying to be funny, trying to bust your balls a little. We’re all friends here, it’s all in good fun.

As for the Deng/Prince trade, I don’t really get it. If you’re going to trade Prince for a younger player, it should be for Josh Smith. He makes us different in a better way. Deng makes basically the same except with more offense coming from the 3, which hasn’t been our problem. A trade for Deng seems like settling, and Joe D isn’t going to settle.

Correction: Deng makes us basically the same means that I still think that he’s the 3rd option on offense. I do think there’s some legitimacy to the theory that Rip’s game has an effect on Tay’s offense. It’s pretty clear that option #1 is Rip running around screens, option 2 is Chauncey initiating from up top, option 3 is either Prince isolating his man or Sheed isolating his man. I don’t know how Deng fits in with us offensively. Maybe somebody can educate me, I haven’t watched the Bulls play a whole lot.

I’m a huge Prince fan and I’m not seeing this trade but because people I respect think it’s a decent idea let me throw some ideas out there about Prince’s game for discussion.

- does the ball get stuck with Prince on offense? Tay took 27% of his shots with 21+ seconds on the clock at only 37% eFG% where Rip and Chauncey both shot from 16-17% of their shots at 21+ seconds on the clock at a much better percentage. Does that mean Tay isn’t clutch and doesn’t move the ball well or that Rip and Chauncey don’t run hard cuts through 24 seconds of the shot clock leaving Tayshaun with a lot of tough shots?

- Deng only took 9% of his shots with 21+ seconds on the clock. Is that a good thing where Rip and Chauncey and friends will be taking more high percentage shots because Tay isn’t clutch or are the some Pistons secretly selfish and don’t want to hurt their FG% and the end of the 24 second shot clock will resemble a game of hot potato?

- Is Deng that much better of a rebounder than Prince? Or does that have to do with pace and more available missed shots? Prince played 7% of the Pistons minutes at PF last year and outplayed his opposing PF by A LOT according to 82games. The rebounding trouble on the Pistons came from ’Sheed and Rip IMHO.

- Prince had career bests in rebound %, defensive rebound %, turnover %, and assist %. Is he really done improving?

I’m REALLY not seeing this Deng deal. I think Prince covers for a lot of mistakes on this team. I like Deng as a player and wouldn’t mind seeing him on the Pistons but that would mean playing some smallball with Prince and Deng on the court together.

Here’s the boxscore from our summer league game today:

http://www.nba.com/summerleague2008/games/boxscore.jsp?gameId=1520800030

Another DNP for Stuckey — anybody know whether this is just the team being uber-cautious, or is there something to his injury?

Amir had a game-high 9 boards, but Afflalo shot just 1-13 from the field. Bynum was our leading scorer, shooting 8 for 11.

I won’t comment on LB’s “decision” to keep his virginity. I’ll put that word in quotes, take it for what you will.

MP,

I’m happy to see you finally come around.

Also to add to this Deng “rumor”, adding Deng and keeping “Rip” turns us into the best mid-range jump shooting team EVAR

I think we should trade Amir Johnson and everyone else who underperforms in the Summer League games for Samuel Dalembert

let’s remember, the Bulls at one point had the worst shooting percentage in the league last season (if not the entire season, I’m too lazy to look up the actual stat).. Deng’s rebounding numbers are inflated because of that.

Deng is a solid prospect, nothing I’d break the bank for. Maybe after we acquire Thaddeus Young from Philly, we can flip him and Willie Green for Deng

@J:
The commentators said that Stuckey had a family emergency for this game.

After reading and thinking:

Adding Deng to the team in place of Tay removes the rock that keeps Rip and Sheed in check. Deng is not going to come in and keep the crew together when the referees “wrong” us.

I think Deng would be a great addition, and of course we’d have to give up Tay but I just don’t think unless there is another move pending, that this is going to happen.

Del Negro can pray all he wants, I doubt that Paxson is going to go for another piece of the best starting 5 from 2004. Deng is a good mid range scorer, he does not create his own shot, he is limited in the post against guys his size and if we think LeBron and Pierce blow by Tay I can only imagine what happens when Deng and his sore achilles get out there.

Unless Joe D thinks Deng is the piece to build the team around, then I don’t think this is the move to make. LB is correct, Deng isn’t exactly a picture of health out there. Perhaps it’s a part of being in a bad situation last season and in his 1st 2 seasons, but when he puts it together he’s a 19 ppg SF.

Of course, Detroit doesn’t run the same drive and kick offense that CHI so expecting much more than what Tay brings on a nightly basis (unless Rip is moved) is pointless.

There’s no way we get future 1st round picks from CHI and Deng for Tay, otherwise BlogABull’s members are going to burn down the United Center

OtherMatt: Mis-communication. I would not have made the joke if I wasn’t prepared for a reaction, I’d just hate to think I truly offended or disgusted people. I, for one, am not hurt by anything anyone says in response to it.

Back to Deng v. Prince … So NONE of you are concerned that Deng has missed 40 regular season games in 4 years and Tayshaun hasn’t missed one in five? Really, that matters to none of you (even the ones against the swap)? I’m not one to get all chesty about my opinion, but forget Deng v. Prince on gameplay merits for a second, the disparity in relative health in this instance makes a difference. To ignore it, is plain stupid. Tayshaun is Iron-Man. Deng is a lovely plate of china.

Correction: *I’m not one to get all chesty about my opinion without getting provoked

That’s how that statement should read.

LB, it’s all good.

I don’t even think that you need to consider Deng’s supposed injury prone-ness, or whatever you want to call it. I don’t think that trade makes us significantly better. If you want to trade Prince, the correct move is to package him with a young’n and send the 2 of them to Atlanta for Josh Smith. Deng isn’t the best deal you can make, and in all likelihood, it’s a lateral move. He doesn’t significantly change the way this team plays, and he doesn’t improve the offense because he’s not going to be the first or second option.

I haven’t seen Deng play very much, so I don’t know a lot about his individual or team defense. It’s also alarming to me that he had a putrid year when playing for a big money extension.

He also played for a team that was one of the worst in the NBA, Other Matt.

He likely shut it down himself knowing that no matter what he provided, it wouldn’t matter anyway. He had proved his value last year by averaging 18.8 a night while playing all 82 games.

He also played for a team taht was one of the worst in the NBA

Suck it, Chicago.

“I also think because of the core and Rip, he doesn’t get as many opportunities as some others but against many PGs he should be posting up all day long. Given his size advantage against many, it shuold be what we said in HS:”

But he DOES take it to the hoop. He consistently ranks among the top five in true shooting percentage (and some of his outputs in this regard rank among the best in NBA history). Accusing him of poor shot selection is like accusing Dennis Rodman of poor rebounding.

“As for the Deng/Prince trade, I don’t really get it. If you’re going to trade Prince for a younger player, it should be for Josh Smith. "

THIS IS NOT AN OPTION!!!!!

I’m happy to eat crow on this one, but seriously… If Joe D. thinks we must make a trade, and this is available, I would hope he takes it, and that this will sate his desire to shake the roster.

Deng has averaged about 75 games per year, and 75 games of Deng and 7 games of whomever is marginally better than 82 games of Prince. There is also a genuine possibility that Deng greatly exceeds his projections.

@Other Matt:
“I haven’t seen Deng play very much”

Up until the last season, I spent 8 years living in downtown Chicago. Living on a bootstrap entrepreneurs income for the later years (see: ramen, lots and lots of ramen), I couldn’t justify paying for league pass. I had Comcast Sports Net, which meant I could watch every single Bulls game I could possibly want. Since I couldn’t see my Pistons when they weren’t nationally televised, I watched the Bulls…

…and my soul hurt so bad with every minute.

But I did get to see Deng play. I got to see Deng play A LOT. I drafted him on my fantasy team and watched his every move throughout his best season. 52% shooting, 19 ppg and 7 rpg = unreal. The kid’s shot is similar to McDyess, with nearly guaranteed midrange shots when he’s on. With Deng, he’s ALWAYS on (when he’s healthy). Take a big bite out of this, and when you look at it, ask yourself if Tay has ever put up numbers like this:
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3824/gamelog;ylt=ArnKML7qm0odRNqT2bhpJ2kvLYF?year=2006

As for the injury issues, I really don’t feel that Deng is a big problem. McGrady is a big problem. Having watched Deng get knocked around, I really feel that these injuries are an anomaly. We’ll find out more about that though…

I don’t feel that Deng is a huge upgrade over Tay. The move could be significant, should Curry decide to move the ball through the SF more. I don’t know if Deng would be a step up defensively against player like lebron and pierce, but I can say this, which is the crux of my turnaround toward Deng:

You will not see Deng disappear offensively when he has a big defensive assignment.

@Kevin S.:
Let me preface this by saying that I agree with you. I was scratching my head after reading your comment, only because the concept of “eating crow” reached a critical mass in my head. I’ve heard it so many times, yet I do not know its origin (heads to entomology website after posting this comment).

Just for fun, I googled “crow recipe”. Should anyone here ever have to eat crow, it sounds rather tasty!:
http://www.bertc.com/three_crows.htm

Where do I begin today. Let me start with, I thank God I’m not Joe D. in terms of trying to change this team around. They are so damn perplexing man. Lets break down the Big-4.

Chauncey: Old school PG, manages the game like a quarterback does in football. About 7 assists and minumal turnovers. Good shooting percentage, good 3 pt shooter, great FT%. Doesn’t get frazzled much and is always calm under pressure. Negative: I think he is the Capt. of the “flip the switch” club and no one is changing my perception of that (throw out all the stats you want, I don’t give a damn). I think the chip on his shoulder is definitely gone and I don’t see that desire to win or die trying anymore. CB doesn’t seem to have the speed to consistently drive & dish (ala C-Paul, D-williams?, Steve Nash). His comments of always feeling like we’re the better team no matter how many times we lose gets under my skin big time. When another boxer (or various boxers over a 3-4 yr playoff stretch) keep knocking your ass out, you lose the right to keep calling yourself the baddest man on the planet. Get a grip CB. Maybe talent wise its true, but you lose the right to keep calling yourself the best team when you aren’t getting the job done and you lose in the playoffs 4 years in a row now. WTF? Maybe I’m the crazy one. He’s the team Capt. and I think his casual ass approach permeates through the rest of the team. I’m not saying he has to be super emotional like Garnette. But I need your play to tell me your still hungry as hell. Tay isn’t emotional but his play(especially his D) said a lot against Philly and Orlando. Chauncey’s body language and attitude seems to say “its all good, we’ll get ’em next time”. When the fuck is next time Chauncey? I want to see a motherfucker hurting after a loss man. (See Dice). I think Ben brough accountability to the team and when he saw his fellow soldiers weren’t hungry-as-hell anymore by the end of 2006, he was done. I believe he casually blamed Flip so he wouldn’t have to call out his ‘friends’. Ok, I’ll have to break these up so its not one super duper long post.

Rip: Effecient as hell and very consistent. It isn’t often Rip totally disappears. Everyone has an off shooting nights here or there. 99% of the time he will give you between 16-24 pts and end up averaging 20. Doesn’t have to constantly have the ball in his hands (he’s the anti-Iverson). Great shooting percentage from field, 3 pt line, and FT. I think he’s a scrappy defender. He tries hard from what I see and makes the man work hard for his. Tireless worker who never runs out of gas man. Deadly mid-range game and has tried to add driving the lane to his arsenal, although its not his strong suit as far as taking guys off the dribble. Super efficient scorer. Even puts up decent assist numbers at times, although I could do with less turnovers. Durable as hell and rarely misses a lot of games. Negative: He can’t create his own shot and relies on his point guard to deliver perfectly and Bigs to set perfect screens (often multiple screens). It takes a team effort for him to score. I would definitely say he is a shooter but not a natural ‘scorer’. Meaning if his shot if off (or all the other moving parts to get him his shot aren’t occuring perfectly) I don’t see the ability to score in other ways: drive and draw fouls, get scrappy on the boards and get the occasional easy put back, get out on the break for easy transition baskets, run the pick & roll or give & go for easy hoops,just flat out raise over your man and drop a J in his face,etc. Even though he’s 6’7" he seems to play small due to his thin frame. Between him & Tay both being ‘Thin Men’ it causes a liability against meaty 2’s & 3’s. I honestly don’t understand why since he is the anti-Iverson, but for some reason his offensive game does not seem to coincide with Tay’s. When he’s around Tay just gets leftovers, not the big piece of chicken.

Tay: He’s the most perplexing of all. Good defender, although I don’t think he consistently lives up to his reputation. At times he’s the MVP with his defense. Played great against Iggy and Terkgolu. But I don’t see the defensive beast I saw against Kobe in 2004 Finals. Very very multi-talented. The guy can consistently post up and score, nice from 3 (don’t know his % but he can make the 3, you get the point) and everything in between. Good at filling on the fast break. Does everything well. Jack of all trades and the master of none. Love his attitude. True team player who never complains. Seems to be a good floor general. Doesn’t get in guy’s grill but I often see him telling guys where they should have been or where to be next time. Communicates on the floor very well. He’s the glue guy man. He does all the small things and is a great asset to your point guard because he can help facilitate or handle the ball when needed. Love his length. He’s the employee you take for granted when he’s there and you miss the hell out of him when he goes on vacation. The boy never missages a damn game man. Negative: If this boy had a mean streak or was more assertive/aggressive he would be a top 10 NBA talent because he’s good in soooo many areas. I’ll cut him some slack. We have groomed him and asked him to be a complimentary player, not a focal point. He teases you with all that talent and variety of skills but you don’t get to consistently see all of his talents being maximized most of the time. Flashes of brilliance in each area from game to game but rarely puts in all together and has that dominating game across the board you know. We all know his thin frame kills us against meaty 3’s man. He has worn down the last 3 years and wel al know his offense seems to COMPLETELY disappear when he has a tough defensive assignment. I’d love to see him occasionally throw 30 back in Lebron or Pierce’s face man. He’s the quient-essential (spelling) reliable Honda. But at times you wish you had a damn Mustang or Corvette just to burn someone at the red light. There seems to be so much more possible but I don’t think we’lll ever get to see it with him being the 4th option all the time. He or someone has to go. He can’t continue to grow or maximize his talents on this squad. I’m somewhat disappointed that over his career the guy hasn’t put on 2 lbs. I’m not trying to turn him into Lebron or Karl Malone (he doesn’t have that type of frame). I just wonder if there has been any effort into getting any stronger. I hope the exposer to Team USA does him well the way it did Joe Johnson. He came back to Atlanta a different man after playing with Team USA. I hope it boosts Tay’s confidence. I just think we’ve seen all we’ll get out of Tay at this point and definitely on this squad. But can you afford to trade your glue guy who’s the ultimate team player. Sometimes I want him to go but I wonder if we truly understand and appreciate all the little things he does and brings to the table that don’t hit the stat sheet.

Mr. Wallace: I don’t know what to say about Sheed man. We all know he’s a top 5 NBA talent. But talent and actual production are two different things. He’s so damn multi-skilled, like Tay. He’s smart ass hell and if he was smaller would probably be a great point guard as far as basketball smarts and understanding of the game. He can score from anywhere on the court (even 75 feet away :-) ). He’s a good team defender. He’s the glue guy as far as the Bigs go. Can defend just about anybody man and he’e a tough match-up for the best of them, when he’s focused. He brings that D and the inside-out game. (not saying he plays it effectively always). He CAN give you whatever you need from your PF/C or star player. (Obviously I’m not saying he always does, I said he CAN if he desired but he doesn’t). His talent is just the Ultimate tease man.
Negatives: Ok, I’ll state the obvious. His wack ass undependable attitude. At times he’s all over the place like a bratty 5 year old who can’t have his way. He and Rip let the refs take them wayyyyyy out of their game at times. He needs to bang down-low but wants to impersonate Reggie Miller at the 3 pt line. I think Dirk winning the 3 pt contest 2 years ago really fucked with Sheed’s head man. At times you don’t get the max effort you would like to see. I would rather see 20-25 mins of Sheed playing balls-to-the-wall instead of 33 mins and him giving 1/2 effort 50% of the time. I think Sheed has turned into a quitter honestly. Like someone said here earlier, he reminds me of Mike Tyson bitting Holyfield’s ear to get disqualified cause he was getting his ass kicked and wanted out but didn’t want to flat out quit. This year and last he didn’t show up when our asses were on the line and it was elimination time. I just can’t overlook that shit. You don’t want Sheed in your fox-hole man and your life depends on him being ON and having your back at all times. Sheed’s not a leader. I didn’t say he wasn’t a teacher and good teammate. I said he’s not a LEADER. I hate Sheed at the 5. He’s a wonderful 4 but doesn’t have the balls, desire, maybe even guts to play the 5. He’s a perfect Good Cop Bad Cop or Bonnie & Clyde kind of guy. Meaning, find a serviceable (hopefully good) 5 who can be the enforcer and let Sheed get in the occasional punch while the Bad Guy is on the grown. He and Ben worked perfectly cause Big Ben was the Bad Cop and Sheed was a hell of a compliment/partner. But he can’t be your enforce down low. Its just not him. It would help if our guards didn’t get blown by at will. I personally question Sheed’s heart at this point. I think we are asking him to be something he’s not: A Leader, a 5 who’s the primary enforcer down low, a guy who plays consistently in the post. Let Sheed be Sheed but he probably needs to do it somewhere else at this point. Well MAYBE. But if he gets moved, you need someone back with similar skills because we are bare at the 5 man. I don’t know enough about Beadris to say whether I like the trade or not. If he can do the low post grunt work and let Sheed be the finesse guy, then I’m down. We just have to know it will be hard to expect Sheed to deliver down low when we need it most with our asses on the line. But if Beadris isn’t a strong low post guy and Sheed is unreliable, we need a 3 who can score at will (has some post up skills also). Sheed is the Co-Captain, with Chauncey, of the flip-the-switch club and no one is changing my perception of that either. I think Sheed is workable, but we have to know he’s the finesse guy, not the grunt down low 5 we have needed him to be. He may get in line with CB out of the way and we get a hungry star through trade. I’d love to see someone else come in with Dice’s “I must win a championship or die” attitude. I think that would be good for our environment. Just reduce Sheed to being a private again and stop expecting him to be a Seargeant. Give me about 24 mins of good Sheed and if Max can take another step forward this year and Dice remainds dependable (health wise) then I’m good with that.

@Other Matt
“As for the Deng/Prince trade, I don’t really get it. If you’re going to trade Prince for a younger player, it should be for Josh Smith.”

What makes you think the Hawks would have any interest at all in this? Sure I’d rather Smith than Deng, but I’d also rather Deng than Prince, and that’s what we’re debating.

@Other Matt
“It’s also alarming to me that he had a putrid year when playing for a big money extension.”

Putrid year huh?.. PER isn’t the be-all and end-all, but Deng’s PER last season was better than any Prince has ever had.

I’d trade Prince for Deng in a second. A season ago the Bulls would’ve laughed at this trade. Deng’s stock is down because of a failure to duplicate his amazing season in ‘06/’07 as a mostly 21 year old. Deng at 21/22/23 was better than Prince at 26/27/28. He’s 5+ years younger, it’s a no brainer.

Also, there’s no such thing as the same player, and if a trade only makes you slightly better, you still do it.

If Deng is so great how come the Bulls were better with him off the court then with him on the court? The field goal percentage of the opposition is way up with Deng on the court compared to off? The Pistons were +5.2 pts per 100 possesions with Prince on court and the Bulls were -1.6 per 100 possessions with Deng on the court.

And it’s not Prince’s PER vs. Deng’s PER — it’s the SF PER vs. his opposing player and by that measure Deng has a +2.6 PER advantage over his matchup in games and Prince has a +3.3 PER advantage over opposing SFs.

I’ll be horrified if this deal goes through. It’s going to hurt the Pistons ball movement (which hurts team FG%), drive up their turnovers, and hurt their defense. Is the problem with this team really Tayshaun Prince getting outplayed by Paul Pierce and LeBron James or Rasheed Wallace getting outplayed by Kendrick Perkins and Billups getting outplayed by Boobie Gibson and Rajon Rondo? I mean come on…Prince brings it every night.

MP, I think that the Potted Crow sounds best. Crow is a tough, gamey meat, so having it simmer for a few hours should give it some much needed tenderness. Plus, there’s bacon!

EE, pretty accurate breakdown of the big 4.

“I would rather see 20-25 mins of Sheed playing balls-to-the-wall instead of 33 mins and him giving 1/2 effort 50% of the time”

I completely agree E-Double…25 minutes of mostly being in the post on offense with the occasional 3 sprinkled in and being active on defense. M. Curry has said that his offense will focus on getting more points in the paint, whether it be through dribble penetration or post ups. Flip could never get Sheed to consistently play in the post (not all Flip’s fault), so it’ll be interesting to see Curry’s comments on Sheed’s role in the offense if he’s still on the team come training camp time.

@ The people who think Prince/Young Guy for Smith isn’t an option:

How do you know? SI’s reporting that Smith doesn’t want to go back to Atlanta, and if he does, it’s going to be a 1 year qualifying offer and he goes UFA next year. If you’re Rick Sund, aren’t you getting something back for Smith? Aren’t you forced to take the best deal available? It’s not like the Hawks are winning jack next season. If you’re going to lose one of your best players aren’t you getting 75 cents on the dollar for him today instead of diddly next summer? Maybe that particular trade isn’t an option, but we can certainly do something to get Smith.

@joejoejoe
“Is the problem with this team really Tayshaun Prince getting outplayed by Paul Pierce and LeBron James or Rasheed Wallace getting outplayed by Kendrick Perkins and Billups getting outplayed by Boobie Gibson and Rajon Rondo? I mean come on…Prince brings it every night.”

You’re using the Boston series to defend Tay?.. Pierce v Prince was where the series was lost, in my opinion. Everything else went pretty much as you’d expect, including the Billups-Rondo matchup.

Push, Perkins having a double/double before halftime in Game 5 or 6 (I can’t remember) wasn’t a bigger problem than the best player on their team being the better than our 4th best player? Really?

Other Matt " The people who think Prince/Young Guy for Smith isn’t an option:

How do you know?"

Did anyone say it wasn’t an option? Anyhow, if the Hawks were to sign-and-trade Smith, I doubt it’d be for a 3. They already have Marvin Williams and likely Josh Childress. They’d then have three potential starting SFs and no PF.

@Other Matt
“Push, Perkins having a double/double before halftime in Game 5 or 6 (I can’t remember) wasn’t a bigger problem than the best player on their team being the better than our 4th best player? Really?”

No, one of their role players having a nice half wasn’t a bigger problem than PP killing TP all series long. To say he was “better” is a largish understatement. And best vs 4th best? You could argue 2nd best vs 2nd best. Never-the-less, it was expected Pierce would outplay Prince, but to the extent that he did I think was the biggest factor in them winning it. All the other matchups pretty much went as expected.

Dude, Paul Pierce is the best player on their team by a LARGE margin. He’s a top 5 guy in the league. It took the Celtics until Game 7 against Cleveland to figure out who their best player was, and if they hadn’t figured it out then, we’d be talking about our 2nd title with this group. Nobody in the league is defending Pierce when he’s playing as well as he played in the playoffs.

And yes, their role players killing members of our “core” was the reason we lost that series. It wasn’t KG, it wasn’t Allen, and it wasn’t Pierce. If you’ll recall, we beat them on a night where those 3 combined for something like 75 points and everybody in Boston was convinced the sky was falling. So, yeah, I’m saying that Perkins/Rondo/Posey being better than some of our “core” guys is exactly the reason we lost that series.

Also, Billups and Hamilton are our best 2 players. Rasheed, with this team built the way it currently is would be our 3rd best player, and Tayshaun is a close 4th. If you disagree with my ranking of Rasheed and Tay, there’s no objective measure (if you watched every game like many of us did) with which to argue that Tay is better than either of our All-Star (as voted by the players) guards.

Sorry guys. Couldn’t sleep last night so you had to be subject to my bantering about the Big 4. In a nutshell, I was just trying to say I’m ready for a shake-up (i.e. Stackhouse in his primse for Rip). But they all bring a lot to the table in their own right, even though they have shortcomings. I can’t figure out who to give up and what we can get back man. In regards to CB for Beadris (spelling), I just haven’t watched enough of him to have an opinion. As well, its hard to rate guys in Don Nelson’s crazy ass system man. You don’t know what they can do in the ‘real world’. If he can be a above average big man and do the grunt work while Sheed acts as the finesse guy, then I think I may be willing to do it. But that means Tay can’t be traded. I think either Chauncey’s teaching and/or Tays help while on the floor is crucial for Stuckey’s continued development. Deng vs Tay. That’s an interesting call also because it appears Deng is more dangerous offensively, but as someone pointed out here, Deng was usually the 1st or 2nd offensive option while Tay is 4th. So that would definitely help Deng average 5 more pts/game. I think if you line them up considering the stats, tangibles as well as intangibles (we all know Tay does a ton of things that don’t hit the stat sheet, he’s sometimes a great Asst. PG) I think it may almost be a wash. Deng scores more but Tays scoring jumps 5-10 pts whenever Rip is out the line-up. Now the fact that Deng is only 23 is appealing but the fact that he just turned down a big extension from Chicago last summer means he’s going to be expensive. At least maybe significantly more than Tay’s $9 million salary. We also lose I think some continuity on the offensive end. I think I’ll pass on that trade. I’m not paying McGrady $20+million. The hell with it, I still want Carmelo. Lebron has been to the Finals, Dwayne wade has a ring and Finals MVP trophy. He wants to keep up with his two buddies and may be willing to do whatever it takes to win. In Joe D. we trust.

I’m curious fellas. Who do you guys think is the most expendable on the Pistons roster? I’m not saying who has the highest worth or trade value. Which of the Big 4 do you guys think would have the least negative impact on our squad by leavin?. Regardless of who we get in return, who do you guys feel is maybe the most easily replaced. Maybe that’s a better way to put it.

Other Matt and Push: I agree with both you guys. I think your argument is a wash. Pierce averaging about 35 pts and Tay 5 (I know slight exaggeration) hurt like hell. But so did Perkins just completely kickinig our asses 1 or 2 games as well. He had 1 or 2 games where that S.O.B. looked like an all star man. I think Sheed somewhat disappeared during this series also. I think, I think. Hell, its all becoming fuzzy now, I’m so busy looking ahead, I can’t focus on the past as well as I used to :-) .

Kevin Garnett is one of the best PFs of all time. Paul Pierce is great, but he’s no KG. I think Rip is better than Tay too, but I think you could make an argument either way. There’d be people out there who think he’s our second best player, coach K possibly one of them.

Anyhow, it’s time to throw some stats into the ring. Here’s the FG% of Pierce and Prince: regular season, playoffs (not including the ECFs), and then then ECF. On the end I’ll tack on PPG/RPG/APG for the ECFs.

Pierce: .464 / .427 / .494 / 19.7 / 5.8 / 3.8
Prince: .448 / .562 / .324 / 9.8 / 4.3 / 3.0

As for Rondo and Posey, I would argue they both had their worst playoff series against us. Posey shot .346 against us and .462 for the rest of the playoffs, Rondo .349 and .425. Perkins had a nice series, no question, but he did shoot .615 on the year and have 9.9 boards per 40 mins. He didn’t shoot up from nowhere.

And yes, Tay is the 3rd & 4th best player. I say he and Sheed are about tied at this point for the 3rd spot. The two guards are definitely our best two players. I don’t even think that’s really an argument there guys. So I guess Afflalo is somewhere between the 25 pts he had the night he couldn’t miss and the 1-13 he was that last game. Guess he’s somewhere in between. I really need Stuck, Afflalo, Maximus and Amir to all take a step forward this year. I’m expecting Max and Stuck to flat out kick other benches ass. Period. That’s if Max isn’t starting. If he starts, I say he becomes our inside guy, where we play inside out with him and either one of the guards. If Sheed doesn’t want to stay his ass in the post, thats fine. Give his shots to Maximus. He showed me some very nice offensive skills in the playoffs. I think he’s ready for a breakout year next year (14-15 pts, 7-8 rebs). We always drool over Amir. Call me crazy but I think Maximus will be doing a pretty good Charles Barkely impersonation in next maybe 1 1/2 – 2 yrs with consistent 25 mins per game and being used as maybe the 2nd scoring option and we play inside out ball, like Larry Brown loved to. So you chaps drool over Amir and I’ll keep my man-crush on Maximus. I think two years from now he and Stuckey can be all-stars (if given the mins and the proper roles). BTW, Amir doesn’t look any bigger to me and I think he’ll get pushed around in the paint defensively again this year. He still looks lost on offense also. I see the talent, I’m not doubting that. I’m just doubting he’s as ready as many on DBB nation thinks he is.

One last thing before I retire for now. I think PER numbers are complete trash if used out of context. If you’re using PER to say two guys are equall its just that one guy plays 30 mins and the other guy averages 40 mins, so naturally player #2 has slightly better stats, then fine. But to take someone like Amir and take their 10 mins/game averages and expand them to 48 mins and say someone would average 25 & 10 according to their PER is straight GARBAGE. (Just used 25/10 to make my point, not saying thats his PER). To me that’s the equivalent of saying if a guy is a lights out relief pitcher, meaning he’s untouchable 1 inning at a time and saying if he pitched all 9 innings he’d have a ton of no hitters and strike everybody out constantly. I know ERA in baseball is the equivalent of a PER in basketball, but for a relief pitcher you expect a higher ERA because if the guy occasionally gives up a run before getting the 3 outs, his ERA for that game is 9. My point being PER for a player who plays significant minutes is ok, thats the same as the ERA for a starting pitcher in baseball, but PER for someone like Amir or anyone else who plays 10-15 mins is trash. You can’t assume what a guy can do for 10 mins automatically means if you bless him with 30 mins he’s going to triple the numbers he was putting up in 10. I’m sure many of you who ar very very good with stats will TOTALLY disagree with me, but that my humble opinion. Here’s a better example that I would like to see how someone tries to argue against. If Jarvis Hayes comes in for 2 mins and hits a quick 3 and doesn’t play again. His PER for that game is 72 pts/game…..are you kidding me? I know the PER is based on a body of work, not one quick game. But just because a guy fills in nicely for 10 mins doesn’t mean he’ll be an all-star if he played 30 mins. Peace!!!!!!!!!!!

othermatt,

Josh Smith is a coverted talent, which means we’ll be in line with a dozen other teams looking to put together an offer. In addition to players, they can offer draft picks and cap space.

I’m somewhat ambivalent about this trade, but I keep coming back to the idea that the reason we’ve fallen short these past couple of years isn’t because the other teams possessed far superior talent. Rather, most would agree, that we failed because we didn’t stick to our gameplan and play with the heart and ferocity that we displayed in the championship season. I think Prince embodies that. Yes, he was terrible in the ECF. He also put the team on his back in the first two rounds.

Finally, Deng is clearly the better offensive player and rebounder. His defense, in my opinion, is terrible. I think he leads to us being more complacent and soft. I can’t get on board with shipping Tay out for him.

I’m somewhat ambivalent about this trade, but I keep coming back to the idea that the reason we’ve fallen short these past couple of years isn’t because the other teams possessed far superior talent. Rather, most would agree, that we failed because we didn’t stick to our gameplan and play with the heart and ferocity that we displayed in the championship season. I think Prince embodies that. Yes, he was terrible in the ECF. He also put the team on his back in the first two rounds.

Finally, Deng is clearly the better offensive player and rebounder. His defense, in my opinion, is terrible. I think he leads to us being more complacent and soft. I can’t get on board with shipping Tay out for him. Keep in mind, i have no actual evidence – these are just my impressions, from having watched Deng a few times.

forgive the duplicate posts – my bad.

push: You’re wrong on this one. What happened in the ECF is that we gave it away to laziness. Kendrick Perkins, a guy with playoff averages of: 6.6 and 6.1 (read: useless) went for 18 and 16 in Game 5. That’s not A problem, that’s THE problem. Perkins had a higher +/- than Pierce in 5 of 6 games. That’s not the end all-be all, but isn’t that weird that Perkins beat Pierce in +/- 5 out of 6 against us and then turned around and lost +/- to Pierce in 4 out of the 5 games Perkins played in during the Finals? Maybe Perk must’ve known what we all think about his uselessness and he decided, if he can’t get points on the SAT he’s going to get them on the Pistons to spite his detractors?

E-Double: Just like I say with Amir, you’ve got to take how the baskets were scored into account, no matter how much some people (MP, where you at?) want to ignore it. Perkins will never look like an all-star because he’s the farthest thing from one. However, when he’s not being guarded because the Pistons suddenly choose not to stop penetration and instead leave the least offensively skilled player WIDE open right next to the basket, well, even non-NBA level talents can make those shots consistently. Thank you for the anti-PER love, though. I like your relief pitcher analogy a lot. I think it’s solid. Also thanks for backing me up on the “Amir is confused on offense front”. Those who want to ignore it will continue to do so, but it’s there. I’m just curious as to how Tay is both the “3rd & 4th best player” on our team. How can he occupy both spots? ;)

push: I forgot to ask, were you going to explain how it’s logical to say Pierce LIT up Tay when Boston went 2-1 in the games Pierce scored 16, 16 and 11 and 2-1 when he scored over 20? I believe you’re writing some revisionist history, because to me, that means it really didn’t make a difference what Pierce did and didn’t score.

I didn’t read all the comments, but I have to say I agree that we lost because of laziness. Guys like Leon Powe and Perkins thrive on toughness and energy, because quite frankly their skill sets are lacking. They beat us to loose balls and we consistently failed to box out. That should not be happening on a team whose slogan is “Goin to Work” or whatever iteration they are using now.

Fact is, the Pistons have gotten soft and lazy since Larry Brown skipped town. I love this team and I think it’s the most talented in the league, but we were never the kind of squad that could motivate itself, no matter what the media says. We needed LB yelling at the players to do the right thing every time down the floor and subbing them out if they didn’t. I have to believe Curry will not tolerate the sort of nonsense that Flip did and I fully expect him to pull Rip, Sheed and Chauncey when they start dogging it to play Stuckey, Maxiell and Afflalo.

I’ve been watching the summer league and Amir does look lost on offense. He still lacks a go-to move. That being said, I want him to get minutes, but they should let him focus on defense and rebounding, so he can take advantage of his athleticism and energy. Maxiell should be looked at more consistently for low post offense, he’s like a great combination of Corliss and Ben Wallace.

@S.O.D., thanks for feeling me on the Maximus love.
@Lawyerboy, I just meant he and sheed both are multi-talented and are may be tied as our 3rd best player. (I though I explained that). That’s all I meant Bro. :-) We all know Sheed has all the talent in the world but I’m referring to what they actually produce, not what they are capable of.

When I first met my SpottieOttieDopaliscious angel I can remember that damn thang like yesterday … He understood everything I was trying to say and agreed. Amir is lost on offense (Suck it MP, the movement is gaining momentum despite your claims I’m swimming alone), and the ONLY thing you can chalk up our loss to Boston under is “laziness” or some comparable form of “general neglect” on hustle, not talent or skill. Just my interpretation of the situation.

LB: “Suck it, MP?” I thought MP was your boy. I was envisioning a MP/LB v. Kevin S./Boney Tag Team match for the InterContinental Title. But, then you go and take a folding chair to the back of MP’s head.

I was going to make a reference to you being like one of those good guy wrestlers that suddenly turned into a bad guy but I don’t know enough about wrestling to come up with a good example.

I’ll help, QD!

It’s like Shawn Michaels kicking Marty Janetty (sic) through a mirror!

That’s the best I could do on short notice.

Prince for Deng is garbage. It’s too much of a wash to really do any good. Deng’s a good player, kindof reminds me of Lamar Odom— good, but just that: good. Not elite, not game-changing. This is a wash.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again— Tay + filler for Josh Smith. Smith takes Tay’s spot and at 22 years old is already better at EVERYTHING (excluding 3’s, which he can practice). More points, more rebounds, more blocks, more steals, same assists, you get the picture.

And don’t forget, if we can’t get Smith, ANDRE IGUODALA is in the exact same boat (restricted FA). Again, he plays Tay’s spot, is much younger, and is an improvement in basically every area. The more that I think about it, I might be more for AI than Josh Smith— AI’s already shown to be a much better facilitator and scorer, and with as quick as he is (and his 6’11" wingspan), he’d be a terror in the passing lanes.

That’s my 2 cents: sign and trade for J Smith or AI.

Oh, and throw like 3 mil at Kwame Brown— he can defend (reasonably), he’s a hulk (what, 7ft 270lbs?), rebounds, and we can put Sheed back at the 4. Boston has a sped at the 5— we should too.

Chauncey/Stuck/Bynum
Rip/AA/Stuck
JSmith or AI/Sharpe
Sheed/Amir/Samb (Max goes to ATL)
Kwami/Dyce/Amir/Samb

“I was going to make a reference to you being like one of those good guy wrestlers that suddenly turned into a bad guy but I don’t know enough about wrestling to come up with a good example.”

Macho Man, right? Didn’t he do that?

Most famously, Hulk Hogan went bad when he went from WWF to WCW.

QD: MP is absolutely my boy. Love him to death. I wish Mike lived out here with us, you, MP (throw in JackDutch if he’s not stuck at work) would make a helluva crew to catch a game. MP knew I was going to say something like that and it’s all in good fun. He knows he’s got a bigger crush on Amir than I have on Kevin Pritchard (impossible, right?). I just love pointing out that he boldly claimed I was alone in my “confused look” theory and then like 8,000,000 DBBers came out of the woodwork to agree with me.

Birdman: Michaels kicked Marty Jannetty in the face THEN picked up his prone body and chucked it face-first through the window on the set of Brutus “The Barber” (not such a good gimmick) Beefcake’s “Barber Shop” talk show set. True or false: I have a video file of it on an external hard drive. TRUE.

2007-2008 Season Stats:

Tayshawn Prince 13.2ppg/ .4bpg/ .5spg/ 3.3apg/ 4.9rpg/ 44.8fg%
Josh Smith 17.2 2.8 1.5 3.4 8.2 45.7
Andre Iguodala 19.9 .6 2.1 4.8 5.4 45.6

As I said before, it’s really not even close. Both these players better or equal Tay in every relevant statistical category, and both are much younger. AI’s stats are downright Pippen-like.

Joe D.— do something. I don’t care what. Get us a stud.

Correction: Tayshaun

I don’t think kevin s. would want to be my tag team partner..

I don’t think anyone here would want to be my tag team partner…

and that makes me sad

“To me that’s the equivalent of saying if a guy is a lights out relief pitcher, meaning he’s untouchable 1 inning at a time and saying if he pitched all 9 innings he’d have a ton of no hitters and strike everybody out constantly. "

The difference is that pitcher’s get fatigued after one inning. That fatigue point is much less pronounced in the NBA, which is why PER in small minutes tends to translate so well.

Local DEETROIT-RADIO reported (two seperate sources of Drew “Boodini” Sharp, and Doug Karsch) Josh Smith is, and has been, the #1 target. Sign and trade deal involving Tayshaun.
Also, Joe is alledgedly waiting to see if LA matches G States’ offer sheet to Turiaf. If they do not, Joe wants to throw big dollars at Beidrins in the hopes the Warriors are hamstrung by the possible Turiaf contract. If this is the plan (and it is only hearsay, but with two sources), the starting line-up of your Detroit Pistons would go:

Billups
Rip
Josh Smith
Beidrins
Roscoe
I know the Pistons would have to move more dollars off their books than just Tay, but this is what was discussed. Discuss.

Dude, LB, you need to go back up and re-read all of my comments on the issue. Read them, write them down, memorize them, because you’re entirely misrepresenting everything I’ve said and ignoring my main points.

“you’ve got to take how the baskets were scored into account, no matter how much some people (MP, where you at?) want to ignore it.”

I replied to this and I told you that if you want to make that claim, back it up by comparing the PER of other players who contribute the same minutes per game as Amir.

“Amir is lost on offense (Suck it MP, the movement is gaining momentum despite your claims I’m swimming alone)”

Dude, again you are not listening to what I’m saying and misrepresenting my points. You’ve changed your argument. Here’s what I said:

“You’re alone on that one, LB. Really, we can all discuss stats, per game performance and otherwise, but if I’m gonna talk about a guy’s facial expressions, there are a whole lot of successful players that I think look retarded, night in night out. I really hope that we can move forward without making a players FACE a subject of concern, when you’ve chosen to look away from his STATS at the same time.”

Your whole premise was on the look on Amir’s face. You’ve since changed your argument to ""Amir is confused on offense front".

I think making a case based on facial expressions and ignoring stats is ridiculous. retarded.

Personally, I don’t think Amir has been comfortable on offense yet. And by saying that, I am in agreement with most here, maybe even you. Yet as I have said in a recent comment, Amir is easily defended against your claim. Last season, Amir’s only offensive assignment was to grab offensive boards, make put backs and tip ins, basically be a sweeper for any of the other players mistakes. Amir was not involved in our offensive playmaking. When the play would fall apart, when the opposing team would stifle it, the ball would ocassionally end up in Amir’s hands. The only other time the ball would wind up in Amir’s hands is when he wrestled it from the opposing team or blocked it off the court.

Involve Amir in our offense, give him more playing time, and any discomfort on his part, real or suggested, will fade.

@QD:
“LB: "Suck it, MP?" I thought MP was your boy. I was envisioning a MP/LB v. Kevin S./Boney Tag Team match for the InterContinental Title. But, then you go and take a folding chair to the back of MP’s head.”

I’m a lover, not a fighter, baby! Besides, Kevin S. is a brilliant guy, I read his comments with a lot of admiration. Sure, we exchange subtle quips and have boiled over once or twice, but he’s part of the reason why I dig DBB so much. So are you and all the other regulars here.

But Boney. Boney… He and I will now fight with knives. (I kid, brother Boney!)

@UTEP2STEP:
you, my friend, just made my day. may a thousand fortunes come your way this weekend.

If that’s not bullshit, and I pray to whatever god will listen that it’s not, I say do it. Give Beidrins the full MLE, every penny, for like 4 years— he’s only going to get better. If this goes through we have FAR AND AWAY the best frontcourt in the league, offensively and defensively. We have the post game, the garbage game, the hustle game, the block-party we’ve been missing since Ben left, we still have the only 7-foot 3-point assassin in the league, and we’re young as hell (except Roscoe). No cons. All pros.

Just so happens we have what most NBA analysts say is the best BACK court in the league also, and Stuckey (if we don’t have have to get rid of Chauncey in the deals) probably 6th MOY coming off the bench.

These moves = Championship(s) immediately.

I’d be REALLY suprised to see both scenarios work-out, but I would be happy with one of those two becoming reality.

I agree, if only one of them came true, I’d soil my trousers on purpose. Repeatedly.

@MP
You’re welcome, and Thank you. Seems like it may have been getting a little heavy in here.

I think I like both of those moves man. I changed my mind about Josh Smith the more I’ve thought about it. At first I didn’t want him to leave me here in Atlanta for greener pastures in Detroit. But I’m warm to the idea now. In Joe D. we trust man. Make it happen Cool Hand Luke!

[late] Deng has been a superior rebounder than Prince every year of his career, even when the offense hasn’t been terrible. If you’re using the more missed shots argument, that would only really apply to offensive boards, but Deng is better at both offensive and defensive rebounding.

People need to be careful when citing on/off info. There’s a lot of statistical noise, and it can be affected by the quality of backups (Hayes vs Nocioni) and overall team quality.

And the Pierce/Prince matchup was more about Prince’s inability to prevent Pierce from getting anything he wanted. No one was expecting him to “win” that matchup. Prince’s length can act as a deterrent against jumpshooters, but he doesn’t fare that well against bruising SFs, as we all witnessed in the past two postseasons. I’m not saying that Deng is the answer in this regard, but it seems clear that one of the team’s needs is someone who can at least slow these guys down.

Here’s what my cousin from Oakland has to say about Biedrins.

“He’s a fantastic rebounder who likes to stick around and pick up freebies from the chuckers. That way, he gets easy putbacks, which account for a lot of his offense. He’s a comically bad free throw shooter, but he has more offensive game than he usually displays. Passes into the post are punishable by death in GS unless it’s for a quick dunk or layup, so people usually don’t get to see what he can do, but he has a few hooks and such that he uses well. He’s as much of a defensive deterrent as GS has (decent block numbers), which doesn’t say much. Gets his blocks in, but he’s pretty scrawny so he suffers against power players.”

I like him. He’s skinny, but he’s a monster on the boards, he hustles, and he seems to have more skill than people generally credit him with. It’d be hilarious if Mullin hamstrung himself by signing Maggette and overpaying Turiaf (Le Manly Cheerleader). They’re going to have to pay Monta Ellis, I think, and if they have to choose between Ellis and Biedrins, they’re probably sticking with Ellis.

Getting him and Smith would be quite an offseason. Atlanta fans crucified Smith for his offensive inefficiency, but looking at it, his overall shooting efficiency was as good or better than Sheed’s or Prince’s because he actually gets to the line. He’s already a tenacious driver, but he can be a real offensive threat if he learns how to handle better, even without an actual jumper. But even if we don’t get him and Atlanta ends up paying a lot of money for Smith, I think Childress could be had pretty easily, and that would be a solid move as well.

If Dumars is really targeting those two, I wonder if he’s wanting the team to play faster. We’ve been the slowest paced team or close to it for the last few years, and Smith is definitely not a slow-it-down half court player.

Count me in for both moves too.

MP: I’m saddened by your lack of comprehension on this one. You simply misinterpreted what I believe to be an extremely clear premise. I never “changed” it. Sorry it took subsequent re-wordings to have to clean up the vision for you. A confused look on his face is one of the major indications that he is confused on offense. It’s all the same thing. He has a confused look on his face (which as I said a million times) is an indication he’s confused on offense (also something I said a million times from the start). While I grant you that plenty of competent players make strange faces, that was never my intent, nor was it even remotely close to what I implied with my words. His look if it were to be translated into words would be something like:

“Um, where am I supposed to be on the court right now? Huh? You want me to post up? Are you sure? Back to the basket, really? I’m not really comfortable with that. I’m not sure I can do my part for proper spacing by posting up at the elbow or block. I’m trying not to clog up lane space, standing still until I spring into action when a shot goes up, but I just can’t help it. I don’t know any better! Face up play with the ball in my hands and offensive rebounding, that I can do really well! If you want me to hustle and crash the glass, I’m your guy! Just please, don’t ask me to use my height advantage to back someone down or create logical half-court spacing like every single other player on our team who gets minutes is comfortable doing.”

As for all your stat stuff, I challenge you to THINK outside the box, my friend. The Pistons aren’t your average team. 59 is not an average amount of wins. In fact, not many teams have a stretch where in 5 games they go 4-1 and win 3 of them by a 27, 30 and 30 point margin respectively. We’ve had more 20+ point margins at the end of the 3rd quarter (which usually led to us winning by no less than 15) this year alone than I’d ever care to count.

I don’t need to do PER analysis of Amir v. some other bench player. It’s a waste of my time. Notice that when the Pistons have won by a lot, Amir has played a lot. We ALL have seen so many of these blowouts by our boys in the past few years that we know the games turn into exhibitions about midway through the 3rd quarter on average. Well, that suits a guy who’s “energy” personified quite well. Him taking it more seriously than the next guy is his statistically artificial gain. Your beloved PER or your ERA or your MPG or your MP3 can’t devise a scheme that represents this notion: Amir’s majority of playing time has come overwhelmingly in games where the outcome has already been decided. The nature of that type of game isn’t indicative of general NBA play where games are usually decided in the final minutes of the final quarter and are hotly contested throughout. Therefore, extrapolating his extra-energetic, impassioned minutes of mop duty into some wildly pants-wetting PER stat is an argument comparable to the type of time Amir’s play has come during: garbage.

Utep2Step: I like both moves.

PaulM: I think Joe wants to pick up the pace. I think he’s seen NO, Bos to some extent and a few other teams get easy baskets in transition. If you look at the 3 draft choices this year (admittedly not all will make NBA), Stuckey and drafting Amir in 05 & spellcheck Chiek, I think we/he are definitely looking at getting a bit more athletic in transition. Giving up Tay is hard, but Smith can become a lockdown defender within our group and he matches up better with PP, Lebron, etc.

Make it happen JOE !!

@LB:
We can continue this off-site via IM or email. I doubt the rest of the readers here want to watch us argue. Especially when it takes you two HUGE paragraphs to say something that I’ve already agreed with: that Amir gets most of his playing time against other bench players. No shit. Leading off by being insulting (“I challenge you to THINK outside the box” and “I’m saddened by your lack of comprehension on this one.”) is only going to make me say things publicly to you that I will later regret— and people here won’t want to read.

That said, respect my opinion, I’ll do my best to respect yours when you’re not constantly throwing quips at me in comments addressing other people.

Meanwhile, changing the subject, the Pistons just tipped off against Charlotte in Vegas…

Still no Stuckey…

Is there anywhere else to watch the game besides nba.com? For some reason I can’t get the game to work.

Kevin, according to the Detroit media, I was right about Tay/Young’n for Smith? Not that the Detroit media has a great track record, so it probably won’t happen. I happen to think that if both of those moves go through, Tay and Max go to Atlanta for Smith and Miggity goes back to the bench. That’s a nice haul for the Hawks. IMO Max is poised for a break out year. I also think you’re undervaluing Tayshaun, he’s the ultimate glue guy and would fit in fairly well there.

Objectively, how much better is Atlanta going to do than that? I’m asking, not trying to be snarky, I’m not a trade machine geek like some of my esteemed DBB colleagues are.

Fire flip!

@LawyerBoy:

What does the two 2-1 records have anything to with how Prince and Pierce fared against each other? The fact that Boston lost one the three games Pierce scored 20+ disproves my theory? Besides, there’s two baskets on each court. Pierce shot .494, which is high, but not extreme. The bigger problem was on the other end of the floor, where Prince shot .324 for 9.8 PPG. When I said PP killed him in the series, I was referring to the game of basketball as a whole.

@Joel:

I said this earlier, why on earth would the Hawks want Prince? They play Smith as a PF (which is understandable as he has zero jumper) and don’t need another SF.

And again, I don’t see how anyone can reasonably say that Deng for Prince is a wash. And no, saying that Smith and/or AI are better than Deng isn’t a reason. Go and have a look at the year Deng had as a 21 year old. 21! Here’s a snippet: 18.8 PPG, 7.1 PPG, .517 FG%. He’s 63 months younger than Prince. We’d get better and younger.

Bravo, push.

Why would Atlanta want Tayshaun when they have Marvin Williams and Josh Childress?

push: You said Pierce was where we lost the series. Your words, not mine. I said it was Perkins and for that sir, you are being an idiot on this one and I’m making the correct case (Dikembe finger to UTEP2STEP as well). Pierce didn’t matter. He got his when he got it and it didn’t make a W or an L. Take Game 2 (thanks joe cubed), which was essentially both teams’ best players playing their best (not to be confused with “teams as a whole playing their best”) and we won (and could’ve/should’ve won by more). Pierce (and the other 2) essentially did everything under the sun in that game except play while riding a unicycle like they do at the circus or Globetrotters. And it didn’t matter one iota, we won. Perkins however, well, he didn’t really do much of anything in that game.

The four games that followed however? Not the same story. It’s not hard to rack up put-backs and boards (both sides of the floor) when there’s no one within 5 feet of you and if someone told ANY of us that Perkins for the series would rack up two double-doubles we’d be horrified and probably concede those two games on that alone, as essentially what our lazy playing did. Boston played all season like they only had four NBA starters, and when we let them have a fifth by leaving him alone too much, we let them have the series.

It didn’t make a bit of difference how much Pierce scored or whatever stat he racked up on a given night to the Celtics’ cause (hence my 2-1 citation). They won some; they lost some. Perkins however, well, he was the beneficiary of a bunch of different Pistons leaving him open to go play help defense time and time again while Perkins camped out right by the basket (more boards, more points).

The four times Perkins grabbed more boards than his average? Well, those were the four games the Celtics won. See what I did there? I put stats to tell a story that’s not really true like you did with Pierce v. Prince … The correlation is not such a big deal in all four wins because one of those nights he pulled 7 boards (his average is 6+) and arguing that less than one board sure did it would just be asinine. However, when we leave him open for double digit boards and points, including 5 boards on the offensive glass in Game 5 to go along with 18 points? Well, just kill me, please. That’s just inexplicable and more importantly, it’s unacceptable.

We shouldn’t have even been allowed to play in Game 6, they should have just called the series, because when we put in the same effort AT HOME in Game 6, the result is obvious.

I’m not saying I know that a personnel change (team, not coach) has to be the answer to win that series (though I believe it to be the case), but I do know that filling the middle in that series would’ve made the difference, not anything with Pierce. Now whether or not we can occupy the middle consistently with our current personnel (Mike Payne feels this way) or whether we need to import a different style of player (my view) to go back and win that series, that’s another debate for another day that I don’t feel nearly as confident about in my position. This position though, that Perkins is more indicative of the wins than Pierce, it can’t get any clearer or more accurate.

We got beat when we decided we weren’t going to put Rondo on his ass (or an even more novel concept, just stop his penetration with competent defense) and make him earn it from the line, and instead we’d leave Perkins to play help defense every time Rondo or (anyone) penetrated. Boston (mostly Rondo) treated our perimeter defense like the sieve it was in that series and Perkins gets the credit for all their work because he knows how to dunk. Pierce wasn’t even an ingredient in the Molotov cocktail that was our implosion in that series.

I realize now that UTEP2STEP probably wasn’t talking about Prince v. Pierce. Takes Dikembe finger and cuts it off

QD, I understand that question. But to me the bigger question is, how much better than that can they do for Josh Smith? If they were to get Tayshaun, it opens them up to do a little more trading, no? Or bring a 3rd team in the mix and get some more picks and a young guy going back to Atlanta? I don’t know that they want another young guy. I’m not a trade machine geek, so I legitimately don’t know. But if the best you can get is Tay/Young’n/Pick(s) for Smith, don’t you have to take that deal rather than get nothing and lose him next year? Maybe the better answer is to trade them Rasheed. He provides a useful mentor for Al Horford for a year and then gives them cap space. But what are they going to do with that cap space next summer? There isn’t anybody good available. It’s not like they’re going to save the cap space and woo DWade or LeBron or Bosh (I know he went to G-Tech, but it was only for a year and I think he’s from Texas) or any of the other 2010 free agents.

Other Matt: I think that there are ALWAYS free agents, it’s just never as flashy as it’s going to be in 2010. I’m not sure that you have to take that deal rather than lose him in 2009. If Atlanta wanted to keep Smith for one more year and then just let him go, it’s not like they couldn’t get anyone out of free agency worth something, especially in a class that will have SF/PF hybrid guys like ’09 will.

Some examples of guys who could be snatched via free agency next summer if their status stand pat: AI (if he doesn’t retire), Lamar Odom, Shawn Marion, Marbury (shockingly, he’ll only be 32), Steve Francis (same re: age), Jason Kidd (if he doesn’t retire), Brandon Bass, Charlie Villanueva, Linas Kleiza, David Lee, Andre Miller, Artest.

It’s not the greatest pick of the litter ever, but it really only takes one free agent to make a splash, and who could really blame Atlanta for throwing eight figures a year at some at any of the first three? I can’t.

LB, that’s kind of my point. You look at that list and a couple things jump out. AI isn’t going to Atlanta, and neither is Odom. Marion’s a great big wild card, Marbury is useless, Francis too, Kidd is getting there, Artest isn’t going to the ATL, and Miller is likely to re-up in Philly (quietly going to be very good). I still think a haul of Tay/Max is better than landing any of those guys save for Marion. I don’t know how much better they could do in a trade. If somebody were to come up with a better trade for ATL than Tay/Max, I’ll back off. But I’m legitimately unsure if there’s one out there.

@LB:
I really didn’t want anything to do with that debate, but you mentioned me and I feel the need to extrapolate.

“Now whether or not we can occupy the middle consistently with our current personnel (Mike Payne feels this way) or whether we need to import a different style of player (my view) to go back and win that series, that’s another debate for another day that I don’t feel nearly as confident about in my position.”

Here is the quote to which LB refers:

“We have problems in our frontcourt against Boston, but not in the 5 position– at least nothing we can’t handle with a coach who will actually make the right adjustments (something Curry has already alluded to). I’m confident that with our roster as it stands now, lineup/matchup adjustments is all it would take to neutralize Perkins.”

Full comment:
http://www.detroitbadboys.com/archives/2008-07-02/detroits-looking-at-perimeter-players/#comment-141394

@UTEP2STEP:
The Lakers have declined to match Golden State’s offer for Ronny Turiaf. Since that is a done deal, I’m hoping the report you heard was right and Joe begins approaching Biedrins:

“Also, Joe is alledgedly waiting to see if LA matches G States’ offer sheet to Turiaf. If they do not, Joe wants to throw big dollars at Beidrins in the hopes the Warriors are hamstrung by the possible Turiaf contract.”

begins patching up a failed relationship with god so that he’ll listen to my prayers about this one

Does Biedrins provide anything that the Pistons aren’t expecting from Amir? I know he’s a rebounder and a shot-blocker. Amir does these things pretty well. Biedrins is taller but has a similar frame from what I can tell. I read that he struggles with power players.

I haven’t seen him play much, but can he be a physical presence?

I think I’d still rather have Kwame Brown because he’s a completely different kind of big man than we have and can probably be got for a cheaper, shorter contract.

@QD:
re: Biedrins. Biedrins is a pure center (although some in GS would disagree with that). He’s tall, tough, and a fantastic rebounder. He’s very wise with his shot selection, although many criticize his form. He scores his baskets in the post, first and foremost, but can extend a little bit. When I first watched him play for a few games, I actually thought he had the rebounding hunger of a player like Ben Wallace (but not the same defensive intensity at all), yet he actually has an effective offensive game in the post and within close range.

While he’s only gotten < 30 mpg in GS under Nellie’s schizo starting lineup changes, if we offer him 33+ and the permanent starting 5 spot we can expect a solid 16 and 12 per game with him, with a steal and a block and a half.

“QD, I understand that question. But to me the bigger question is, how much better than that can they do for Josh Smith?”

Miami – Shawn Marion
Clippers – Chris Kaman
Magic – Rashard Lewis
Chicago – Luol Deng & Ben Gordon
Charlotte – Emeka Okafor and Sean May
New Orleans – Tyson Chandler
Phoenix – Amare Stoudemire
Portland – LaMarcus Aldridge and Joel Przybilla

“While he’s only gotten < 30 mpg in GS under Nellie’s schizo starting lineup changes, if we offer him 33+ and the permanent starting 5 spot we can expect a solid 16 and 12 per game with him, with a steal and a block and a half.”

While I would support his signing, this is unrealistic. We play a much slower pace, with many fewer missed shots. He would also be surrounded by much better rebounders. His offensive game revolves around putbacks. He doesn’t really have any go-to offensive moves.

Moreso, I think you would see a modest improvement on McDyess’ production. Maybe a consistent 10 and 10.

@LB

Ok, in my last post I said, “there’s two baskets on each court. Pierce shot .494, which is high, but not extreme. The bigger problem was on the other end of the floor, where Prince shot .324 for 9.8 PPG”, then you devote 7 paragraphs to the half of the game where Boston had the ball.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, Perkins had a nice series. But there’s two things in (low scoring) playoff basketball that standout at the time more than they probably should. One is role players doing more than’s expected and the other is offensive rebounds.

There’s always one or two role players who have a nice series, and it’s easy to say the stars cancelled each other out, and if we stopped that one role player we win. Well, you can do that if the stars do as expected, but in this series, they clearly didn’t.

Pierce thoroughly outplayed Prince, and I’ll say it again, most of it was when we had the ball. Prince had had two nice series heading into the ECF, but laid a massive egg against Boston.

Oh, and your points correlating in wins thing, I can do the same for Perkins. 2-1 when he scored 10+, 2-1 when he scored <10. Would I conclude that him scoring points is not a factor in the outcome of games? No, I wouldn’t. Three game records are very small sample sizes. When you’re dealing with a stat that discounts a hundred other variables, making sweeping statements based on a few games is foolish.

I’ve agreed that Perkins had a good series, and if he’d played as expected the series would’ve been closer and we’d have perhaps won it. But I still maintain that the matchup of Pierce v Prince was more telling. Can you even grant me that it was somewhat significant? Or was the difference 100% Perkins? And don’t throw back at me some Rondo and/or Posey rubbish, I shot that one down earlier.

Kevin, yes those deals all appear to be slightly better to way better. Certainly Kaman could be had. I question whether or not Atlanta would take Lewis’s albatross of a contract back in a deal, I question whether Phoenix would give up Stoudemire, whether Portland gives up Aldridge (who’s got to be close to untouchable), and whether NO would upset what seems to be really good chemistry between CP3 and Chandler. If Atlanta could have the Phoenix/Portland/NO deals, I think they’d have to do it.

Mike Payne,

You can join my tag team anytime.

Amir has shined when he’s been in there in situations where the matchup favors him, whether it’s against a team’s 6th man or whether it’s been in mop up duty.

This was also Amir’s first f-ing full season of playing NBA basketball. To expect him to just jump in as a 20 year old who has spent most of the past 2 years in the D League with a cup of coffee here and there is ridiculous.

I wouldn’t expect someone who watches the Clippers to understand how to properly mold a 20 year old prospect, considering the Clips start all their 18-20 year olds from Day 1.

I don’t know what we expect the guy to do when the offense isn’t running plays for him. What do you want the kid to do? Put a big smile on his face when Stuckey brings the ball up the court? Do you want him to try to get post position on his man when the offense circles the ball away from him?

He has ability, he will play, and you will jock him the first time he fills up the stat sheet once he gets a chance.

Ok, thats it. I curse all of you who are in favor of trading my beloved Maximus in the proposed Josh Smith deal. Hell, trade Amir’s skinny lost ass along with Tay. Yeah, I bet I just raised the blood pressure of the Amir Nation. Well, now you see how I feel as President of the Maximus fan club :-) .

@E-Double:
“I bet I just raised the blood pressure of the Amir Nation”

Nope, our pressure only raises when someone puts together a cohesive argument about why Amir is a wash. No one here has done that yet.

check’s pulse, laughs at the Amir haters

@Boney:
“Mike Payne,

You can join my tag team anytime."

tag’s Boney :)

Boney, it has to be a little worrisome that they’re not running plays for Amir in the Summer League. Isn’t this the time to get him acclimated to things like that. They did it for Afflalo in a couple games.

@ QD: Good point about not running plays for Amir. I keep forgetting who said if Amir gets the minutes this year, he can duplicate the production of Aldridge for Portland last year. I don’t see it gentlemen. We don’t even let the guy have some fun on offense in the LVSL. Not even pre-season or training camp, the LVSL. But he’s going to put up Aldridge type numbers if given the proper time? Mike P., its good to see that me suggesting trading the Almighty Amir didn’t seriously cause any strokes :-) . Seriously though, I see the same potential you guys see in Amir. I just think it will take 2-3 years of steady growth for him to really kick ass and it appears you guys think it can happen maybe in the next season or so. Trust me, although I playfully kid you guys often about Amir, I pray that he pulls a Jermaine O’neal and just comes out of nowhere and next thing you know, with 1 good year or so of playing time the guys showing All-Star status. (Maybe it was 2 years, please don’t nit-pick, you guys get my point). But I think Maximus is ready now to put up 14 & 7 this year if given the chance. I personally hope he starts again, if we don’t make a major move. But while Maximus is ready to break out now, the (Next In Line) MVP is Amir. I just don’t understand why Maximus doesn’t get the love from Pistons faithfull that Amir gets and he’s already starting to show and do some of the things we hope Amir can do or improve upon. The man held his own against ‘Superman’ Howard and I still can’t get the KG block from behind on the fast break, out of my head. The little jump hook is becoming consistent and the 15 footer has looked good, but all the hell we drool about in terms of the Next-In-Line players is Amir. What gives, cause I personally don’t get it? That’s honestly the reason you hear me talk smack about Amir, Mike Payne, is cause I’m really impressed with Max and I’m a huge fan. I don’t really think Amir is trash or anything. I just don’t expect as much as others, so soon. That’s all. Maximus and Stuckey fight for the 6th man award next year (or at least for 2nd place if Ginobilli stays on the bench).

Amir doesn’t figure to be the “run plays for him” type. I’d put his style somewhere between a Tyson Chandler and Shawn Marion.

Incidentally, Amir was our most productive player. 9 points, 6 boards and a block on 57% shooting 25 minutes doesn’t strike me as a failed effort, especially with the absurdly whistle-happy refs.

O’Neal didn’t come from nowhere. He played about 12 minutes a game for a stacked Portland team when he was 21. He wasn’t as effective as Amir was last season, however.

I guess we disagree on semantics Kevin. The guys plays 12 mins a game and I agree wasn’t blowing anyone away and he gets to Indiana and goes wild. Before the injuries that is. So you actually helped make my point. If he wasn’t even as effective as Amir was last year durig his 12 mins of time on that stacked Portland squad and then blossomed very nicely into an all-star, then why are you disagreeing about him ‘coming out of nowhere’? Kevin, I never understand when I take the time to create a lengthy post and pose a questions, opinion or point of view, trade suggestion, etc., why it is that (in this case you) ignore the point of my post and nit-pick about one little piece of it. You didn’t say anything to the overall primary point of my text, which wasn’t to bash Amir by the way. It was askig why does Amir seem to get sooo much more love than Maximus? You didn’t speak to that. You did throw out some valid points about Amir and the summer league but you ignore my primary point and then nit-pick me about O’neal not coming out of nowhere. Maybe you can address my question and we can forget about O’neal, you get the point man, that being I hope Amir breaks out. Don’t mean to sound snippy Bro but it really gets under my skin when someone ignores my primary point and nit-picks about some minor shit in the post. That being Jermain O’neal. So lets throw him out. Let me leave it at this “I’ll be elated if Amir has a break out season and becomes an All-Star”. Can I say that? I’m out, gotta go enjoy this 95 degree Atlanta weather. Don’t have time to spell or grammar check. Oh well. :-)

@kevin s.:
Comparing Jermaine O’Neal’s 4th season with Amir’s 3rd, you’re right— Amir was more effective than O’Neal. Its wild, they both averaged exactly 12:18 mpg, but Amir was a better FG shooter, FT shooter, rebounder, blocker, etc.

Kind of puts the “but Amir’s unreal stats were only in garbage minutes” into perspective, and what more PT did for a player who shares Amir’s skill set.

E-Double,

I think Maximus got his due a couple seasons ago, then blossomed into a nice player this year. He was terrific in the playoffs this year. He should have got more burn against Cleveland in the 07 ECF because he singlehandedly changed games 1 and 2 with his energy. Now I think he’s our 6th man, and a damn good one at that (although a case could be made for Stuckey, I will yield to him being at a greater position of need than Stuck).

Amir is the new hottnes, though. He’s someone we can all compulsively dissect and debate. I think if you polled DBB, 85% of us would be extremely satisfied with Maxiell.

“If he wasn’t even as effective as Amir was last year durig his 12 mins of time on that stacked Portland squad and then blossomed very nicely into an all-star, then why are you disagreeing about him ‘coming out of nowhere’? "

Because he was a very solid backup. One could have predicted much of his success in Indiana because he had a couple more years of improvement in him and more regular playing time tends to make players more efficient. That isn’t semantics.

“nit-pick about one little piece of it. "

Well, you asked why he isn’t allowed to have fun on offense. I think that is a question more for the referees. The rest of the post was about why Maxiell doesn’t get as much chatter on this blog.

The reason for this is that Maxiell is largely a known quantity. He’ll be an above average starter or an outstanding bench player next year.

The argument that stuck with me was your contention that I am hoping for Amir to come out of nowhere like Jermaine O’Neal. This was your most substantive contention, and I took issue with it.

I don’t particularly care whether you were bashing Amir or not. I am here to talk b-ball, not defend the man personally.

E-Dub, can I be VP of the Maximus Club? I (and Jim wrote a good post about this) think that Pistons fans overlook Maxiell. Maybe because Amir’s physical gifts are so tantalizing (although I would argue that Maxiell is the more impressive athlete).

I don’t think Maxiell has finished developing his game. He’s very consistent with his fifteen footer, his baseline fadeaway, and his face-up drive to the lane and elevate moves. I wouldn’t be surprised if he added something else to his arsenal.

We haven’t seen the best of this kid yet.

Well, the dog days of summer have hit, and QD manages to prove why he’s the coolest cat in the house. I call Secretary of the Club. I hope he can be used at center. I don’t care how short he is, he’s our only player that actually loves being in the paint on both sides of the floor.

I’m done talking about Amir or the ECF. No sense in trying to explain to a staunch Bush supporter that there’s a reason why the guy only has at best, a 30% approval rating. Here’s to hoping Amir isn’t the next Brandon Hunter.

@QD:
Kevin is probably right, Maxiell likely doesn’t get as much chatter here because “Maxiell is largely a known quantity.”

I don’t think there is anyone here that is NOT a Maxiell fan. We know what he’s capable of and we’re seeing his game evolve with each passing month (ex.: his mcdyess-like 15 foot jumper, and the other points you suggested— all right on the money).

Hell, there was a time when I was saying things about Maxiell that I am now saying about Amir. Take a look:
http://www.basketballr.com/2006/12/17/jay-m-m-m-maximum/

Point being: we’re all card-carrying members of the Maxiell Fan Club here on DBB.

Last, here’s one of my favorite Jason Maxiell fanhood moments:
http://www.detroitbadboys.com/archives/2007-05-11/pistons-topple-glass-joe-err-chicago/#comment-47451

QD,

Jason Maxiell is in his what, 3rd year in the league this past year and he finally had plays run for him. Maxiell has also come into the league as a more accomplished player, having played college ball for a relatively noteworthy program. We all remember how raw Maxey was in his first year. All he could do is rip off the rim, now he’s got that baseline jumper and the jumper from the elbow to add to his repertoire.

Amir is making his way into the rotation the same way Maxiell made it into the regular rotation, but it takes time. The kid is clocking fat checks because he wasn’t locked into a 3 year deal right off the bat, on top of how talented he is. He’s a prospect, just like in baseball.

Maxiell barely saw run in his first year, unless it was in mop up duty. He saw limited run his 2nd year with Nazr and Dale on the roster. He jumped up to first big off the bench this season after putting in his work.

I think Amir can make that jump this season, with Maxiell being a 4th year veteran who can likely handle having another young player in the post with him. I think Amir can make the jump to fight Dice for first big off the bench, depending on what moves the team makes from now until then.

Coach Curry was never a great player, he was a great contributor to the other 4 on the floor. I see a little of Curry in the pieces Detroit has that noone (but us) talks about:

Max
Amir
AA
Sharpe

They all appear to be able to contribute while the focus is on the other players in the rotation.

Amir will make a bigger splash this season, if not only because it’s now or never because of Dyess and Sheed’s contract running out at the end of the season. The team needs to know which direction to go next offseason when there is money to spend.

“I think Deng is better than Tay”

Final proof LB has had a lobotomy.

QD,

And the shorten up the reply to your “it has to be worrisome” statement…

no it doesn’t. The kid’s putting in his work. We all can see the lack of post skills the kid had this past season, but I’ll bet a LB paycheck that he continues to grow and put up near double digit points off the bench IF he’s given the amount of run Maxey was given in year 2. The kid is active on the glass, he could easily put up 7 and 7 this season without any effort and that’s close to Maxey’s output this past season

Deng’s game is similar to Rip’s

all mid range

LB has a raging rod for guys who can shoot from 12-17 feet

“Amir doesn’t figure to be the "run plays for him" type. I’d put his style somewhere between a Tyson Chandler and Shawn Marion.”

I think Tyson Chandler is a probably a more reasonable track for Amir than Jermaine O’Neal. Maybe we should stop all of the O’Neal comparisons.

I think O’Neal had more skills than Amir did at the same age. I remember an interview with Sheed way back where he was asked why O’Neal wasn’t playing. “Ask this guy (Dunleavy) because he just kills everybody in practice.”

I’m sure if there was a Summer League back then, they’d be feeding him in the post.

Hell, Tyson Chandler made the All-Star team. Maybe I was premature in saying that Amir didn’t look like a potential All-Star. As for being a go to scorer…

Boney, I have no doubt Amir will contribute. And I think he deserves 24 minutes a game this year because of his effort, attitude and athleticism.

I guess I’m just reacting to a season’s worth of “if Amir had gotten the ball more we would have won” posts. At first, I thought I was just missing something. Now, I think it’s not there.

Some have said that Amir would display his moves if he had more plays called for him. But, not getting plays called for him in the Summer League tells me the kid has no moves. No one could stop Maxiell in the Summer League from the very beginning of his career. Especially last year when he came in having lost 20 lbs.

@QD:
“I think Tyson Chandler is a probably a more reasonable track for Amir than Jermaine O’Neal. Maybe we should stop all of the O’Neal comparisons.”

The comparisons to Jermaine O’Neal have been very long standing, and with good reason. What you’ve seen this last year was an Amir whose offensive play was relegated to the post, whereas in previous years (and in the D-League) he exhibited an effective touch from range. His range is very likely similar to a guy like Jermaine O’Neal, who usually takes more shots from outside of the post than he does in the post (but is wise enough to stay away from the three point line).

Between Jermaine O’Neal and Tyson Chandler, Amir’s offense has the likelihood of extending like O’Neal’s did, not remaining in the post like Chandler. I could see Amir earning his paycheck in the post, but shooting at a high percentage from range.

On the physical side, however— Amir does have a similar frame to Tyson Chandler, although I would argue that their skill sets are less comparable than Amir to Jermaine.

QD,

I don’t think that it’s an “if Amir had gotten the ball more we’d have won” thing. It’s more of an “Amir really could have changed that game with his energy and activity” kind of thing. His energy, more often than not, picks everybody up and makes everybody else on the court better. Sometimes he makes dumb mistakes, but they’re mistakes born out of hustle and effort and I think we can all live with that.

If Amir turned into a Tyson Chandler type player, EVERYBODY here would rejoice.

perhaps the Amir love came from the 20 and 10 performance against Al Jefferson in the final game of 2007..

I know that’s when I first fapped to his potential, I don’t know about you guys

@Boney:
For other folk here (I missed the game, personally), it was Amir’s 18 point performance in his second-ever NBA game, where he shot perfect from the FT line, the field and the 3-point line. Amir hit two 3s that game.

I personally caught on from this:
http://www.nba.com/dleague/playerfile/amir_johnson/game_by_game_stats.html

Then the game you mentioned (and the double-double with 6 blocks two games prior) really sealed the deal on Amir becoming an armchair legend…

QD,

Maxiell also came into the league after being a senior at Cincinnati. His game was more polished, if you could say that, than Amir’s who came straight from High School.

Of course, I’m making all these assumptions but it’s not hard to understand that a lack of D1 basketball has hindered Amir’s development his first couple of seasons in the league.

He flourished in the D League while playing against guys in the same boat as him and guys who will never make it to the NBA on anything more than a 10 day contract. 1 full year and an intermittent season has served as his college so to speak, and now it’s time for him to develop in the league with regular PT.

It’s easy to compare him to J. O’Neal only because of O’Neal’s slow rise to the top. I don’t think he’ll be a Jermaine O’Neal type, he doesn’t appear to have the developed jump shot that O’Neal has.

While we’re on Amir’s jock, has anyone taken the time to skim back through the 2005 draft? It didn’t produce too many duds as they usually do, especially the 2nd round: Brandon Bass, Monta Ellis, Ronny Turiaf, Lou Williams, LB’s boy Gelebale, Andray Blatche, Ryan Gomes (he has potential), Amir, and it’s a stretch to say this guy is serviceable but Marcin Gortat.

Mike Payne,

I have to admit, my pants got kinda tight while scrolling through that game log there….

Boney, I saw Gortat’s name and thought you were crazy. That’s because I thought you meant Macej Lampe, that guy who was invited to the draft and looked like he might go in the late lottery but fell all the way to the second round. But I think that was right around the Darko/Tskia craze that was sweeping the NBA. What a fun trip down memory lane.

Yeah, MP, the 2005 game where he Amir went nuts was when I thought we might really have something on our hands. I remember watching that game, I think it included a really sick dunk that caused the bench to go crazy.

Hey, I was excited too when I saw the stat line for the game where he knocked down 2 threes. And that first D-League game two seasons ago, I was one of the first who posted it because like everyone else, I was excited to see what this kid could do.

But, I’ve personally never seen the guy hit a jumper with my own two eyes and I’ve watched most of the games last year.

Europe, it’s what’s for dinner:

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=As8afmfg571mNw2IWRieDc28vLYF?slug=aw-childressgreece072108&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

Oh, and that reminds me, speaking of players who’ve spent time in Europe, check out the D League stats on Carlos Powell. Eerily similar to Amir Johnson. Why haven’t we heard of the other next Jermaine O’Neal? Your guess is as good as mine, since Amir Johnson’s D League stats are unparalleled.

“Eerily similar to Amir Johnson.”

Nearly 5 assists, only 6.4 boards, 1 three per game, only 10 blocks in the entire season, only 49% from the field… How is he even remotely like Amir Johnson or Jermaine O’Neal?

“Amir Johnson’s D League stats are unparalleled.”

Absolutely :)

also, @LB:
Does any team currently own Carlos Powell’s rights, as far as you know? I saw that the Warriors waved him in 07, but curious who he’s practicing for now.

Not that I think DET needs yet another D-League project, I’m just curious…

Powell’s scoring numbers were what I was referring to. No one has his rights because there’s no reason to have a guy on your team who likes to get wasted and play with guns and also has skills everyone else in the NBA at his position has in greater quantity. There are tons of people who can get 20 points per game in the D League and will/should never see the light of day in the NBA. I can tell you some or you can check Rod Benson’s blog. A personal favorite of mine is Earl Calloway. He didn’t even get 10 and 5 as the starting PG during his senior year at Indiana University. I heard once that dominating the Big 10 means nothing if you’re Joel Przybilla, so sucking in the Big 10 must mean you’re an even bigger joke than Przybilla is. Calloway in the D League last year came up with 19 points, 6 dimes and 5 rebounds per. Someone should have his rights, no? The answer is no because those inflated stats are a dime a dozen in the D League and they mean NOTHING, just like I’ve been saying all along. It’s not an exact science when you look at how a guy like Mike Taylor, with underwhelming D League stats (or Walter Sharpe in college) gets drafted this year.

You can make the numbers look pretty (even when they’re just solid), but the numbers don’t tell the whole story, and they certainly don’t tell much of a story at all unless you put them in context. The only thing Amir did that was eyebrow raising in the D League was rack up such a high number of blocks. His rebounds were nice, but far from special and his points were much the same. This whole Amir thing is perpetually going to be what you want to see instead of what’s really there until you wash the arrogance off. The guy hasn’t done squat, so please stop treating him like he’s the Messiah and mocking anyone who has the audacity to present a more extensive picture. Please do start treating him like the guy who went seven picks after Andray Blatche and averaged about half as many minutes, points and rebounds as Blatche did this past season.

It’s really ridiculous and it’s an embarrassment to this community as to how lazy an argument can get when it just lists a bunch of numbers failing to show what they mean in comparison to what’s happening around such a league by trying to pass them off as spectacular. Especially when the person behind said argument purports that these numbers make the penultimate argument of Amir’s ascendancy, whereas those of us detractors make no “cohesive” argument. The reason you haven’t heard a cohesive argument, as I said, is simply because you’re being too closed-minded on the subject to listen.

We should be happy if Amir becomes as productive as Andray Blatche does (I’m like the millionth person to say something to this effect). He probably will (millionth on that too). However, proclaiming that he’s assuredly good for much greater things because he hit a couple 3s or he dropped 20 points in an NBA game or he hit 30 a few times in the D League is ignorant, annoying and an affront to the people who come here looking for reasoned perspective (which usually comes without an emotional bias attached). Let me know when Amir gets 50 in a D League game once, let alone twice (see: Almond, Morris, behind C.J. Miles on Utah’s depth chart last year). Hell, Darko once went for 16 on 7-11 shooting with 5 boards and 3 blocks back in March ‘05. He scored 20+ 3 times this season. Is he just about to break out into Jermaine O’Neal status?

Embarrassing to this community?

How about we should pump up our players so much that it has other team’s fans wondering what all the fuss is about?

Our favorite team’s front office is the one pumping up this guy, not us. Our team’s front office is the one telling us they’re going to groom this guy into something special, not us.

We’re following the leader on this one, with regards to Amir. We saw with our own eyes what happens when the front office actually believes in a no-name talent, Rodney Stuckey goes off against the Celtics and they have to rotate their best on the ball defender to check him.

It’s not embarrassing to the community if we support him, it’s embarrassing to the community to see “key members” of the community argue with the majority and try to insult and put down everything that is said about the player.

This isn’t a forum where we come and talk down about our players and how they suck or how they’re not going to be good at all. This is a Detroit Pistons’ forum where all we do is jock the guys who are on the team and guys who the team is capable of acquiring.

If you want to overanalyze and get all psychiatrist with the majority of folks here, by all means be our guest. I just want to make sure that you’re cool with us re-posting your drivel like we did when kevin s. made the Rodney Stuckey remarks and how he wasn’t going to contribute this season.

We’re warming up the oven, tell us how you want your crow

oh and about this -

“Please do start treating him like the guy who went seven picks after Andray Blatche and averaged about half as many minutes, points and rebounds as Blatche did this past season.”

I know you wouldn’t really know since you live in Clipperland but…

If you actually look at the Wizards roster, you’d know why Blatche “played” twice as many minutes as Amir and it’s not because he’s “7 picks ahead” better it’s simply because the Wiz are not as deep.

Blatche played out of position last year with Etan Thomas out for the season with his heart condition. Even with Thomas out, the kid only played 20 minutes per game and was embarrassed (or at least he should feel like he is) during the playoffs. With the team’s main backup at the center position out and with the main competition at the 4 being Darius Songaila, I can see why you think he’s comparable to Amir, not at all.

Blatche should have been pulling in close to 25-28 minutes a night at the backup C/PF slot but he didn’t. I, along with other Pistons’ fans I’m sure, already believe Amir Johnson has surpassed Andray Blatche considering what Amir has done on a yearly playoff contender whereas Blatche can’t even crack legit minutes on a team where he’s the 2nd biggest guy on the floor.

and umm “I heard once that dominating the Big 10 means nothing if you’re Joel Przybilla, so sucking in the Big 10 must mean you’re an even bigger joke than Przybilla is.”

you mis-heard that too because I also added “just because you block other 6’7 or 6’8 centers shots in the Big 10 doesn’t mean you’re great”

puts LB in an arm bar and tags Mike Payne for an off the turnbuckle elbow smash

Wow Boney; and I though I came off as a little irritable yesterday :-)
Although I slightly disagree. I think its ok to have civil discourse about our team whether we are high over one team member versus another or if we debate whether a guy is ready to start or not. But if it gets to a level of us calling our guys garbage, then I agree with you. Even on their worst day, they are still Pistons for the time being. We have to show them a little love. No player is ever all good or all bad. I don’t believe we can get up in a complete love fest and just kiss ass all the time. Then I think we lose credibility as a basketball blog nation. But let me end with this, the collective basketball IQ of DBB Nation and our understanding of the game never ceases to amaze me man. For comparison, read the mail bag at pistons.com one day or the free press blog area. I pray most of those folks are maybe kids or early teens just throwing things out there. DBB rocks baby!!!

caught up in a complete love fest, that is.

@Boney:
+1,000,000.

No need to tag me in, my friend. Your “embarrassing to the community?” comment needs to be front-paged. Brilliantly said.

@LB:
“Especially when the person behind said argument purports that these numbers make the penultimate argument of Amir’s ascendancy, whereas those of us detractors make no "cohesive" argument. The reason you haven’t heard a cohesive argument, as I said, is simply because you’re being too closed-minded on the subject to listen.”

It takes two to tango on that, baby. The only arguments I’ve heard are these (from the amir detractor group as a whole):
   1 He looks confused on offense
   2 His stats don’t matter, he’s only played in garbage time
   3 Player X from another team is getting more minutes, Amir is not

1. He’s not been included in offensive playmaking. His primary offensive task is put-backs, tip-ins, offensive rebounding, etc. When given more of an involvement in our offensive plays, when given more minutes, Amir’s offensive game will mature. As Amir said, Coach always says, defense is first and offense will come to you.

2. Halve all of his meta stats, his PER, wins produced, etc., he’s still impressive. If the stats show that Amir has dominated in the D-League and NBA garbage time, isn’t it time to give him a shot at extended minutes?

3. Boney was right about Blatche. A lot of people have said “well look at what player X over in team Y has done”. Amir is behind Rasheed, McDyess and Maxiell in the depth chart.

“you’re being too closed-minded”

Nono, I’ve listened to everything you and others have said. I just haven’t seen any logical reason not to keep the faith in this kid, not to trust Joe’s words about him, not to ignore the track record he has already established as a player, and not to feel that he’s got a great chance to be a serviceable starter.

“This whole Amir thing is perpetually going to be what you want to see instead of what’s really there until you wash the arrogance off. The guy hasn’t done squat, so please stop treating him like he’s the Messiah and mocking anyone who has the audacity to present a more extensive picture.”

I don’t think I’ve any arrogance to wash off. And who have I mocked? And where did I do so? Did I call anyone’s comments a “ridiculous” “embarrassment to this community”? And when have I treated Amir like a Messiah? Does “serviceable starter” = “Messiah”?

LB, when someone disagrees with you, don’t take it personally. You’re not going to change my opinion, you’re not going to change the opinion of other Amir supporters on here. I believe in Amir because of his track record and Joe’s word.

Thanks again, Boney:

“It’s not embarrassing to the community if we support him, it’s embarrassing to the community to see "key members" of the community argue with the majority and try to insult and put down everything that is said about the player.”

Oh, and I really, really hope we get some news soon, because this is getting ridiculous. I’ll try desperately to change the story:

Deng has given Chicago an ultimatum? Looks like we’ll find out if Deng will be a Piston by August 4th, when he’ll either a) be given the contract he wants, b) be issued a sign-and-trade offer with a team like Detroit, or c) signs the $4.5 million extension and becomes an unrestricted FA next season.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=AvJIaHjDWQEr7CiAsjoi7qy8vLYF?slug=aw-dengbulls072108&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

The DBB community was divided on bringing Deng into Detroit, and as much as I want to avoid any arguments there, its at least noteworthy for our trade rumors.

Also, our boy Matt interviewed Kevin Love over at the Fanhouse:
http://nba.fanhouse.com/2008/07/21/kevin-love-talks-about/

“Oh, and I really, really hope we get some news soon, because this is getting ridiculous.”

I couldn’t agree more Mike P. Now that the draft and summer league are over there won’t be much new Pistons talk until training camp unless a major trade goes down.

Speaking of which, when does training camp start?

Dynamic Duo: Three (2+Kevin) over here does not make a majority. Despite the fact that numerous people have agreed to temper expectations on offense, you proclaim you’re fighting the majority’s battle while I’m a rogue representing my own sect. Hell, I’m pretty sure when JackDutch and I watched the Boston series he was telling me how great Amir is (forgive me JD if I recall that incorrectly, we talked a lot of hoops those two games). I may be rogue in my unyielding nature, but if I eat crow (riiiiight), you better get enough for the entire rest of DBB outside of you three. I won’t go down the list of dissenters (who must be getting awful sick of both my crap and yours despite them knowing that I’m right) because the whole concept is ridiculous, but I assure you it reads far, far longer than three. Continue to exercise hubris, it will only make the contrast more stark. I may have started or joined the bandwagon in February (or earlier, I’m not even sure), but you guys are going to end up being the last ones to the party, unwanted.

And to accuse me of taking things personally while you charge that I’m rooting against Amir is the insulting bullshit that’s permeated your self-centered crusade. I’m just like everyone else who would be thrilled if the JO or Chandler comparisons came to fruition. But truthfully, Ben-esque offensive production at a much higher FG% (Ben did average about ten points per at the height of his tenure here) with mildly less defensive impact is what we’re probably looking at. That’s still a great piece. Hell, Andray Blatche is a nice piece to have if you’re willing to look at things objectively. You need pieces to make a whole, not numbers.

But let’s put it like this, if Amir’s a guy we want carrying our team on offense, forget eating crow, all of DBB will be eating the collective dust of teams like: Orlando, Philadelphia, New Jersey, etc. in a couple years. If Amir Johnson in the future is given the set of keys to the car on offense that Sheed or Tay has currently, in all likelihood we’re looking at a return to the level of success we enjoyed in the teal era. Those of us who get that, we’d rather give those keys to Maxiell and let Amir mop up what’s left on the glass like Ben did while he was here. If Amir ends up clogging the interior on defense, that could be just what the doctor ordered and a welcome change. On offense though, he already does, and it’s not a good thing.

More newsworthy, On the “I wonder when Sauce will come out to celebrate” tip, Europe’s raid continues:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3497994

That’s now Delfino, Garbajosa, Brezec (ESPN not reporting that yet, DBB scoop, high five Ohad!), Juan Carlos Navarro and Boki Nachbar, PLUS Brandon Jennings. With Josh Childress on the cusp and Nenad Kristic having reportedly received offers (though wanting to remain stateside), I imagine that privately, Stern’s ire has been raised a bit.

Also, looks like Dooling is getting his wish to get out of Orlando in a trade with New Jersey.

Mike Payne,

I think we can agree (and perhaps all of us would agree) that Amir would be the first big man off of the Wizards’ bench if he were on their roster last season.

Somehow I don’t see Blatche or Pecherov or Darius Songaila giving my main man ’mir a run for his money.

But then again, I could be wrong because Blatche plays 20 minutes a game while Amir played only 12.7. Blatche and DeVon Hardin FTW!

E Double,

I don’t mince words man. That’s part of my charm.

I agree, if I wanted to read a reach around fest where I need to bring some astro glide with me, I’d go to perkisabeast/blogabull/bulletsforever/celticsblog/pounding the rock/any suns blog/etc to read about what the commenters think of the players.

While I agree that not all of our players are silly, I will also agree that we have a greater percentage of silly players when compared to say, oh I dunno, the Clippers. Sure our combined sillyness of talent hasn’t returned a Larry O Brien in a few years but, it’s not like they haven’t been close.

We talk about what we need to do, as a team, to get to the next level while most team’s fans talk about what it would take to get their team to our level.

All fans can agree, say what you want about the 1990 – early 2000s Atlanta Braves, but most of their fans would donate the right testicle to the cause if that’s what it took to get to the NLCS all those years in a row.

The fans can say the Braves, Bills, Pistons, etc all suck because, well, they’ve sat on their fat asses at home and watched the Pistons, Braves, Bills, etc lose in the postseason during their run while their team, most likely, were out fishing or playing golf.

I’ll take my lumps as they come, for the cause. It’s not like we’re watching the 1994 Pistons here and telling everyone how great Terry Mills CAN be. We’re not watching the 1991 or 1992 Pistons and telling everyone how Orlando Woolridge is a special player. We know what the hell we’re talking about and it’s time to stop telling someone they’re ignorant because you don’t like the way their facial expressions look when they’re on offense.

Boney, in all fairness, you bag on Rip a lot.

LB bags on Chauncey a lot.

I bag on Sheed a lot.

Sauce gets Dyess.

Someone doesn’t like Tay.

As a wise man once said, “There are no sacred cows on this team.”

I’m going to go ahead and agree with Boney and Mike P. No one here can be absolutely sure that Amir will be a star or even a starter. It’s one thing to express these doubts, and it’s another entirely to put on this me against the world attitude, decrying everyone else as lazy and close-minded when you posit arguments that involve his facial expressions and blithely write off the entirety of his play in the NBA as garbage time.

I have my doubts too. He may never develop much of an offensive game, but that’s not where I see his real potential. We’ve seen him in several games this year where the second unit took ten point leads and blew the game completely open in the second quarter. He has been a big part of that, blocking shots like a madman, hitting the boards, and playing ugly but nonetheless efficiently on the offensive end. It’s probably safe to say that he wouldn’t get many open dunks against starters, but it’s hard to believe that his more marketable skills (rebounding and blocking) would go completely down the drain. Rebounding rates, if I recall, are fairly consistent between starters and the bench. I’m not sure if the same is true of blocking, but Amir has shown that he has the requisite leaping ability, timing, and length to be an excellent shot blocker.

In conclusion, training camp can’t come soon enough.

“How about we should pump up our players so much that it has other team’s fans wondering what all the fuss is about?”

Boney, you’re a tool. So it’s okay to put limits (not bash, right? that’s fucking generous of me too) on Rip’s game, but when I point out your boy’s limitations on offense I’m doing something wrong because he is young and should be “pumped up”? That is an absolute fucking joke. That concept strikes me as absolutely retarded.I don’t come here to scare other NBA teams’ fans. I come here for reasoned perspective and more sets of eyes than one. You don’t come here for any eyes but your own (and on this subject alone, same goes for MP). Hubris.

For a guy who hates that Rip “doesn’t create his own offense” (a counter-agrument I’d take for another day), you sure love Amir. Hubris to say that and further to say that I’ve insulted Amir. Only thing I’ve done is tell it like it is, this guy is going to be a really good defender first and not an uber-competent scorer.

If we give Amir the keys on offense that we’ve given Sheed and Tay, we’re looking at a return to the level of success enjoyed during teal era Pistons. Trust me, Joe and MC will NEVER let that happen. So you guys can forget about him getting more offensive involvement. They’re going to let Amir be the glass crasher, shot-blocker and that will be a good thing. If he’s open for a J, great, he’ll knock it down, but I know he can’t create it or play with his back to the hoop.

MP, a serviceable starter is a far cry from the arrogant “season away from a JO explosion” and the “Stuckey, Maxiell, Amir” offensive triumvirate Boney talks so much about. So which is it? Hell, Andray Blatche WILL be a serviceable starter soon too so to knock him (Boney) and pump up Amir is another joke.

Ben Wallace was far greater than a serviceable starter, but he never felt comfortable on offense (in large part because he sucked at it). At least in Ben’s case, he knew where to be on that side of the court. We can only hope Amir picks up on that skill. Even if Amir doesn’t, he’ll still be good on defense and he’ll be better than Ben on offense because he has a J.

But the day Amir starts scoring on guys in the post (let alone abusing) with his back to the basket is the day Larry Brown comes back as coach. He’s 6’11 (or whatever) and it’s just not there. It’s not like Ben didn’t average 10 points for our 2 Finals years on put back. That’s great, it’s not JO’s offense, it’s Kendrick Perkins’s.

Now, onto the fun stuff … Dooling looks to as if he’s going to be traded to New Jersey, so he won that game of chicken. And Boki Nachbar is officially going to Europe. By my count, that’s Navarro, Garbajosa, Delfino, Nachbar and Brezec (Ohad w/the DBB scoop as this hasn’t been reported anywhere else yet!) with Childress on the cusp and Brandon Jennings to boot. Where’s Sauce to celebrate the raised ire of David Stern?

QD: In all fairness, I’ve tried to scale back (especially here) on Chauncey criticism, because it’s personal bias toward his complacent attitude since about ‘05 (a movement starting to gain steam here actually), which makes for inaccurate criticism most of the time. You have more subject data on me than any other DBBer though because we catch games together. I think most of my Chauncey bashing these days is relegated to Hollywood Billiards. That, and with so many fans calling him expendable (thanks in large part to Stuck’s emergence, no doubt) I don’t really have to say anything re: Chauncey that isn’t said for me.

And QD, thank you for the reasoned perspective, and modesty. I don’t think you’re too tough on Sheed, he’s just the one that gets to you (like me w/Chauncey), your criticisms are valid. The modesty and perspective has been sorely lacking. However, I do take umbrage with one thing, wasn’t Stuckey (and Stuckey alone) exempted from the sacred cows comment? Or is that separate from a player not being available in trades?

“No one has his rights because there’s no reason to have a guy on your team who likes to get wasted and play with guns and also has skills everyone else in the NBA at his position has in greater quantity.”

Though that would explain why Golden State had him.

RESPONSES TO MP:

1. He’s not been included in offensive playmaking. His primary offensive task is put-backs, tip-ins, offensive rebounding, etc. When given more of an involvement in our offensive plays, when given more minutes, Amir’s offensive game will mature. As Amir said, Coach always says, defense is first and offense will come to you.

AGAIN, WHY ARE THEY NOT INVOLVING HIM IN THE OFFENSE MORE IN THE SUMMER LEAGUE?

2. Halve all of his meta stats, his PER, wins produced, etc., he’s still impressive. If the stats show that Amir has dominated in the D-League and NBA garbage time, isn’t it time to give him a shot at extended minutes?

OF COURSE, HE DESERVES MORE MINUTES AND NOT JUST BECAUSE OF STATS. HE PLAYS HARD. AND SHEED AND DYESS ARE TOO OLD TO BE ABLE TO EFFECTIVELY GUARD THE PICK AND ROLL.

3. Boney was right about Blatche. A lot of people have said "well look at what player X over in team Y has done". Amir is behind Rasheed, McDyess and Maxiell in the depth chart.

YEAH, THE WIZARDS BLOW. ALTHOUGH, SONGAILA PLAYS WELL WHENEVER I SEE HIM. WHY DOESN’T HE START?

"you’re being too closed-minded"

Nono, I’ve listened to everything you and others have said. I just haven’t seen any logical reason not to keep the faith in this kid, not to trust Joe’s words about him, not to ignore the track record he has already established as a player, and not to feel that he’s got a great chance to be a serviceable starter.

I HAVEN’T BEEN HEARING “SERVICEABLE STARTER.” I’VE BEEN HEARING ALL-STAR, NEXT JERMAINE O’NEAL, ETC. I WOULD LOVE FOR HIM TO BE THOSE THINGS BUT I JUST DON’T SEE IT. I DO THINK HE CAN BE A SERVICEABLE STARTER THAT GIVES YOU 10 AND 10 EVERY GAME.

(That post was for you, Fred Capel)

@LB:
“I come here for reasoned perspective and more sets of eyes than one.”

Fixed that for you:
“I come here for reasoned perspective and more sets of eyes than one that I can argue with until they agree with me or else I’ll begin to say insulting stuff like ‘tool’, ‘arrogant’, ‘retarded’, ‘embarrassment to this community’ instead of just agreeing to disagree and respecting their opinions.”

Its tough love, LB. There are people that agree with you, there are people that agree with me. Neither of us are going to change that. Let’s drop it, share a group hug and remember that we’re the best, smartest fan community on the web.

“In conclusion, training camp can’t come soon enough.”

laughs, buys a beer for Paul M

“Please do start treating him like the guy who went seven picks after Andray Blatche and averaged about half as many minutes, points and rebounds as Blatche did this past season. "

He averaged 3/4 as many rebounds in 60% of the time. He also averaged the same amount of blocks. He also shot much more efficiently.

“Hell, Darko once went for 16 on 7-11 shooting with 5 boards and 3 blocks back in March ‘05. He scored 20+ 3 times this season. Is he just about to break out into Jermaine O’Neal status?”

Amir has consistently played at a high level, as evinced by his PER. Darko has not. Your counterargument is that Amir has played his minutes in garbage time. First, this is false. Second, it is irrelevant, since players actually improve with more playing time per game.

+1,000,000,000 Kevin S. Wow, hilarious, perhaps the funniest thing I’ve ever heard on DBB, certainly funniest in quite some time. I’ve never doubted your wit, only your reliance on stats to tell the whole story (see QD’s response to MP)

Seriously though, if I may indulge my snarky side for just a bit longer re: D-League stats, check out Morris Almond’s offensive displays in his game logs in the D League last year and then look at Amir’s. I’d be hard pressed to believe someone can be amazed at Amir’s offense in the face of Morris Almond’s. I mean, Carlos Powell really did put up the same numbers as Amir but Morris Almond is just on another planet from both of them and still couldn’t get time behind C.J. Miles in Utah last year despite numerous call-ups over the course of the season.

+5,000,000,000 QD. Said it better than I could (and in caps !!!), and I know you’re pissed about it now despite the fact that you’re the most calm guy I know out here in LA. Thank you for passionately coming to my aid and saying everything I’ve tried to say (albeit calling me loquacious is an understatement) concisely. And you worked in a FRED CAPEL reference, amazing!

P.S.: Matt Barnes to Phoenix. Good pick-up for the Suns, no? I think so, as he fits their fast pace coming from success in Golden State. He certainly can give Amare a run for his money on the tattoo front.

@QD:
“(That post was for you, Fred Capel)”

I laughed my ass off when reading that :) Hahahaha

“AGAIN, WHY ARE THEY NOT INVOLVING HIM IN THE OFFENSE MORE IN THE SUMMER LEAGUE?”

We don’t know, we can only speculate in both directions. There are plenty of reasons why he wasn’t involved, but none of them conclusive enough to be effectively opined here. Here is one of those: When I was watching Detroit play Dallas on Thursday, the announcers were talking about the nature of the summer league, and how a coach will basically select a player to showcase in a specific game. “This is your game, let’s see what you can do”. The other players are primarily a supporting cast.

Amir may not have been given that chance this year for one reason or another. One could be that Curry knows Amir’s game well enough to know what they would be working on in training camp and how to get Amir involved in time. Working on Amir in the Summer League would take away from potential roster players like Sharpe, prospects like Washignton and Plaisted. The question, then, is “why did Afflalo and Stuckey get their showcase game”? Who knows.

Additionally, Joe is hoping to make trades right now. The Summer League is also a tool to showcase certain marketable players. Afflalo could be an example here. Samb too. My point— we have no idea why Amir wasn’t involved in offense in the summer league, but we also don’t know the nature of our focus in Vegas, what Curry want to see from the prospects, and what Joe wants himself and other GMs to see…

OF COURSE, HE DESERVES MORE MINUTES AND NOT JUST BECAUSE OF STATS. HE PLAYS HARD. AND SHEED AND DYESS ARE TOO OLD TO BE ABLE TO EFFECTIVELY GUARD THE PICK AND ROLL.

Couldn’t agree more.

YEAH, THE WIZARDS BLOW. ALTHOUGH, SONGAILA PLAYS WELL WHENEVER I SEE HIM. WHY DOESN’T HE START?

I like songaila too, he can be pretty nasty— and consistent too, if I remember correctly.

I HAVEN’T BEEN HEARING "SERVICEABLE STARTER." I’VE BEEN HEARING ALL-STAR, NEXT JERMAINE O’NEAL, ETC. I WOULD LOVE FOR HIM TO BE THOSE THINGS BUT I JUST DON’T SEE IT. I DO THINK HE CAN BE A SERVICEABLE STARTER THAT GIVES YOU 10 AND 10 EVERY GAME.

I believe, personally, that Amir Johnson has the skill set and the athletic ability to possibly develop into an All Star talent, with a performance similar to what O’Neal brings. That is the absolute BEST case scenario. On the other hand, I believe it is not at all a stretch to believe that Amir will become a serviceable starter. “Serviceable Starter” is the low end of my expectations from Amir. And like so many others have said here, “anything else would be a bonus”.

“For a guy who hates that Rip "doesn’t create his own offense" (a counter-agrument I’d take for another day), you sure love Amir. Hubris to say that and further to say that I’ve insulted Amir. Only thing I’ve done is tell it like it is, this guy is going to be a really good defender first and not an uber-competent scorer.”

Rip doesn’t create his own offense while other players in his position are capable of driving the lane and not dribbling it off of their foot, get called for a palming violation, or take 3 steps between dribbles which is traveling. Rip doesn’t create his own offense because he relies on guys like, let’s see, Amir Johnson to set screens for him.

Amir can’t create his own shot if the offense isn’t set up for him to be the focus during that set play, which is never considering last year as my “source”. Amir isn’t going to dribble the ball and break you off a Tim Hardaway-esque killer crossover because, well, he’s a god damn power forward. Sheed doesn’t create his own shots, he posts and the ball is dumped into him.

My argument for Rip is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay different than your argument for Amir.

QD,

I rip on, hmmm, Rip because he lacks the ability to beat his man off the dribble. I rip on Rip because when the ref misses a call on him, he makes sure to let the ref know the next time down the court by not only committing a foul on his man, but also likely adding a T to the immaturity.

I haven’t gone so far as to say he’s a terrible player. I haven’t ripped him incessantly, and I’ve never said he looks like on offense. I do remember saying that Rip has the most value of anyone on the team, so if we trade anyone it should be Rip. That’s not a backhanded compliment, it’s a compliment which was followed up by Joe D.’s news conference talking about changes.

No matter what Cap’n DBag says to me about “oh you’re a tool” or “oh let me twist what you said around to make it sound stupid because I can’t reference anything other than my lameass threat to you”, I know how I feel about Rip. I feel he’s playing out of position for his abilities. I feel he can’t handle the ball as well as most 2 guards do. I feel that Stuckey has made Rip expendable if only Joe D. didn’t envision him as a point guard.

Amir is a 21 year old basketball player who has spent his time coming up through the ranks from high school. He is going to have crappy games, but he plays on a roster that allows him to have crappy games. He doesn’t CONSISTENTLY have crappy games, which is great from a guy who just completed his first full year of NBA basketball.

ooops, I think Rip just dribbled the basketball off his foot again…

MP, I think we can leave it at this:

You think “Serviceable Starter” is worst case scenario. I think “Serviceable Starter” is intermediate case scenario. If I’m wrong, crow will never taste so good.

@QD:
Sounds good with me, my friend. It sounds like you and I come close to sharing a perspective on this. Also, I’ll chow the crow if I’m wrong as well, I’ll have recipes and a video cam handy for all to watch :)

Now that’s the DBB community I know and love.

I hope I didn’t start this Amir fire storm. Although, I obviously have added to it. I told you guys I’m the President of the "I Love Maximus" Fan club and I’m tired of hearing about Amir. No body every talks about my guy Max anymore. I guess he’s yesterdays news. Oh well. I can’t change the world. I just can’t want for the Almight Amir to cure cancer and AIDS and save millions of lives worldwide. Ok, I kid, I kid. Have a sense of humor Amir faithful, don’t get your panties all in a wod or can we not joke about him either?

Maybe its the crack and heroin I’ve been doing all day (yeah right) but I still think of Max as Barkely Jr. I think this kid can develope into a beast and all star. Don’t know about hall of famer like barkely, but I can see Max (whether for the Pistons or someone else) averaging 20 & 8(maybe)in the next 2 years. I think if he’s featured with a big 5, this guy could be an absolute beast because he’s starting to add the soft touch, jumper and finesse to his power game. You guys talk about Amir all you want. I’ll just sit in the corner by myself and talk about my man Maximus alone. Don’t mind me over here!!

:-) 5:30 gotta love it.

E-Double: Your Maxiell optimism is duly noted and personally appreciated. I think you’re taking it a little beyond the realm of general likelihood though. 20 and 8 strikes me as a stretch. Only 27 NBA players averaged 20 or better last year, that’s less than one per team on average. The Pistons, to absolutely no one’s surprise, had 0 players average 20. Now 12.5-15.5 points and 6.5-8 boards strikes me as likely. Max has improved his arsenal each year. I can’t wait to see what he shows up with this year.

But, the way the Pistons play, and with Dice locked up for the next two years, I don’t like Maxiell’s odds to do anything spectacular in terms of sheer numbers.

As much as I like Maxey, I do wonder if he is capable of being as effective while playing more minutes (35 a game,for example). I would love to find out. I’m really interested to see if McDyess and Max switch roles this year.

You know, I don’t understand how things get so contentious around here sometimes. I’d like to politely co-sign with Boney and Mike Payne on this one. I’ve been one of the ones leading the Free Amir charge around here. I think I’ve stated my case pretty clearly on that front. I think Amir can be a good player. I think that for 2 reasons.

1) I’ve seen him play. He was quite good in limited minutes last season. I wasn’t a “star” and a lot of the things he did didn’t show up in the box score, unless you believe in the +/- stat. I don’t need to use statistics, I only needed my eyes to see that his energy was effective and he noticeably lifted his teammates effort when he was on the floor.

2) This is the biggest reason I believe. Joe Dumars is telling me I should believe. Joe D has rectified ALL of his player mistakes within 2 seasons. Joe did Grant Hill for Ben freaking Wallace and Chucky Atkins. That’s a move that would’ve sent many around here over the deep end. He did Stack for Rip. He’s hit far, far more than he’s missed. And he’s handed Amir a big contract. He keeps saying that Amir can be “a star”, his words not mine. Given his track record, there’s no reason I shouldn’t believe what he’s telling me. There have been rumors over the past few years that Amir was “untouchable”.

Now if you don’t agree with me, and clearly QD and LB don’t, that’s fine. The question I pose to them (and the rest of the BOOO AMIR) crowd is this: how can you believe blindly in a lot of what Joe D does (specifically Sharpe and Stuckey), have the faith that he’s going to make us better through a trade, yet not believe him on this? I’m not trying to pick a fight. I think that’s where the disagreement lies. I’m not going to call your opinion “embarrassing” or “poorly researched” or whatever insults you want to level at mine. I just want to know.

Other Matt,

Any of the dbags around here (and I mean that lovingly) that believe Sharpe is the answer at the backup 3 THIS season should shut their mouths when talking down about Amir. The guy has shown ability in the Summer League, and while we think we’ve cured what ails him or he’s cured what ails him, he’s still a rookie 2nd round draft pick.

All of the dudes walking around here with Sharpe rods (no pun) after watching the guy dribble a basketball that also put down Amir pretty much should just have a seat and remove their fingers from the home row. Plain and simple.

At this point, Walter Sharpe, Sandman, whatever you want to call him is basically Ronald Dupree. This team has a hole at regular backup 3. They can run small and put Rip at 3 and run AA out there or they can put AA at the 3 and run even smaller.

I’m by no means the leader of the Free Amir pack around here… I didn’t think the kid was ready this past season, but he showed up and competed and did fairly well. I will remain on the Free Amir bandwagon because I’ve seen what can be, it’s up to Amir to put it together.

“Now if you don’t agree with me, and clearly QD and LB don’t, that’s fine. The question I pose to them (and the rest of the BOOO AMIR) crowd is this: how can you believe blindly in a lot of what Joe D does (specifically Sharpe and Stuckey), have the faith that he’s going to make us better through a trade, yet not believe him on this?”

How is not thinking Amir’s going to become an all-star equivalent to booing him? And how is it questioning Joe Dumars?

Joe invested 3.6mil a year. It’s not an unreasonable contract. I wouldn’t even call it a gamble. It’s not all-star money. It’s not even starter money. And I think Amir will show that he’s worth that 3.6 this year.

I like the kid. He seems humble and hard working. And I think when it’s time to renew his contract, Joe will give him a fair offer based on what he’s shown he worth.

But excuse me for wanting to see the kid hit a jumper before I retire his jersey.

@QD:
“But excuse me for wanting to see the kid hit a jumper before I retire his jersey.”

Lol’d hard. :)

@Other Matt, my Legion of Doom brother:
“Now if you don’t agree with me, and clearly QD and LB don’t, that’s fine.”

I think QD is pretty wise about his opinion. In fact, in this divide between Amir supporters and Amir detractors, QD is the perfect centrist.

QD, by no means am I saying that I think Amir is going to be an All-Star caliber player next season, or even in the next 2-3 seasons. I do think he has the potential to be a star. By the time he’s 25, I think he could be a good starter for us. He does all the things that everybody bitches that we don’t do enough of, that’s for sure.

I find it weird that people around here are complaining about his offense. We all cheer for a team that won an NBA Title when it’s best player was arguably the worst offensive starter in the entire league. If any organization knows how to turn a guy like Amir (if you buy the "no offense theory) into a star, it’s this one.

And I was trying to be lighthearted and joke when I coined you guys the BOOO AMIR crowd. Chill, man. I’m trying to be civil. Maybe I’m mis-reading what the anti-Amir crowd is arguing, I don’t know. But the general tone that seems to be coming from LB is that Amir is lost and is unlikely to ever become even an average starter. Arguing that idea is basically questioning Joe D. In my eyes, you can’t make that distinction.

I get where you’re coming from, though. I didn’t understand it before. It’s good, we’re all cool! Same team everybody! Same team!

MP, I agree with your assessment of where QD stands. I don’t think he stands that far from me on this issue. I happen to think Amir could become an All-Star, and think he will at the least become a very good 6th man or good starter for us by the time he hits his mid-20s.

Other Matt: You’re absolutely right it’s the same team and people seem to be tempering expectations about Amir which pleases me to no end, but allow me to say …

It’s just not fair to call that contract big. Roger Mason will make approximately the same per season for the next two years as Amir (Mason makes like $100,000 more/year) on a contract with the SPURS he signed a few weeks ago. Marcus Banks will make more than $4 million/year for the next three years. And the list goes on and on and on. As QD said, Joe made the smart business move, he didn’t do anything risky.

Joe definitely said Amir “does things no one else does”. I don’t think he made reference to Amir being a star, though I concede that I could be completely wrong about that one. No one has ever said “Amir just clowns the guys in the post during practice”, that much I know. I seem to remember something like that floating around about Darko from Sheed, and it shows if you ever watch what Darko can do in the post. At least I have actually seen Darko destroy people in the post and drop my jaw when he flashes his skill on rare occasion. I haven’t heard of Sheed letting loose about Amir’s offensive skills as of yet and I haven’t seen ‘em either. Amir just doesn’t have it in the post. He IS lost on OFFENSE. He is 6’11, not very strong, and can’t take the ball from the top of the key to the cup like a Rashard Lewis or Hedo Turkoglu can and doesn’t seem to know what to do outside of mopping up. What’s he going to do when he gets minutes? Mop it up and do a damn fine job.

I believe Joe thinks Amir can seriously contribute (as we all do) and play with boundless energy, but if he really thought the guy was the next JO, able to embarrass people on offense, we’d have heard about or seen his plethora of post moves.

I’m sure we all agree Amir deserves and will get his shot this year. Don’t look for him to post up his man in isolation and hit too many turnaround Js though, certainly not like the one-dimensional Rip can. Look for him to play with boundless energy and make in impact that way, by doing the scrappy stuff.

And yes, fawning over Amir’s D-League averages when there are plenty of guys on par and ahead of him, is poorly researched. It annoys the crap out of me because it’s purposely framed for dramatic effect to seem awesome to those without the information to put it in context. It’s really just a head nod-shoulder shrug thing. Plenty of guys Amir’s size did what he did on points, boards, FG% if one bothered to look it up. My favorite is Ian Mahinmi. The only thing Amir really pwns is blocks. I got no qualms about Amir on D in the next level.

LB, you’re right, that isn’t a big contract. For a 2nd round guy who hadn’t contributed a whole lot, I thought it was a lot of money. But I get what you’re saying. I think there’s hope for him on offense. It might take a little time, but he does have a game on the NBA level to his credit where he was perfect from the floor and the line and from 3 point range (2-2). I remember watching that game. The potential is there, it wasn’t a fluke. He’s definitely not far enough along on offense for my taste, but I think the talent is there. I’ve seen him hit enough of those little baby hooks to know he can do it.

And for the record, I’ve never compared Amir to JO. That’s an outrageous best case scenario, which if it happened, we’d all huddle together and sing camp songs where you’d wear an Amir jersey and Boney would wear a Rip jersey in celebration.

NEW CRAZY RUMOR ALERT!

Coming from the Sacramento Bee, by way of Fanhouse.

Links:
http://nba.fanhouse.com/2008/07/21/if-artest-gets-traded-to-detroit-will-earth-implode-immediately/

http://www.sacbee.com/static/weblogs/sports/kings/archives/013976.html

@Other Matt:
Holy Smokes. I’ve been fervently, fervently against such a move. I think Davidson would dance a jig on ice skates before that would happen (no disrespect). Would it make Detroit better? Shit yes it would.

Artest is a great talent but I question his desire to win. I remember in Game 6 in the ECF against Indiana, he took a stupid cheap shot at Rip in a close game.

That’s worse than anything I’ve ever criticized Sheed for.

mlive has an article that the Pistons are looking at Devean George.

Please God NO!!! This guy sucks. Bad. Absolutely awful. A poor man’s Maurice Evans.

QD: Isn’t a poor man’s Maurice Evans just a broke man?

@QD:
Devean George? I just threw up in my mouth a little…

Also, thought I’d point out that freep.com included a link to Matt’s Amir interview:

http://freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080721/SPORTS03/80721077/1051

They refer to him as “AOL.com Sports Writer Matt Watson.” Great to see you hard work and good writing getting noticed, Matt.

@QD:
That’s pretty sweet, IMO. You know what’s interesting, when Matt asked me to help him maintain coverage on DBB if anything happened (like Jarvis Hayes moving to NJ), I found it surprisingly difficult. I write at least 8 articles per day on different media sites I write for, but none where I have to consider that an active community will get involved with my post (with nearly 100 comments!). Its not as easy as just drafting up a quick post. It takes some serious conceptualizing, and consideration for how the community will reply.

Point being, what happens day-in day-out on DBB is not easy, and I think what Matt has achieved here is nothing short of brilliant. Honestly, is there another writer at ANY level covering the Pistons that you’d rather read over him?

Just finished a glass of wine, so I’m probably a little more “ass kissey” than normal. Still, I mean what I say. pours out a little liquor for Matt, accidentally did so all over my sleeping doberman

It’s bad when you’re known more for vetoing the Kidd deal rather than any accomplishments on the basketball court. Hilarious, though.

@QD: That Freep thing definitely surprised me, but in a good way.

@MP: Thanks for the nice words, but really, I hope you didn’t pour any of the good stuff.