Put this in the other thread, but mise well kick this one off w/ it:

To DBB as a whole:

I’m just curious to hear everyones thoughts. I am not avocating for this but would definitely be intrigued to see how it would play out.

What do you think of bringing some of our current starters off the bench and starting some of our young guys. For-example, Sheed comes off the bench and Amir/Maxy start. Stuckey starts and Billups off the bench. Even to push it further, the new starts (our young guys) would assume the full-role of a started and not limited time as a starter. What are your thoughts?

Clearly I’m still very open to a big move/trade this off-season, but I think if we do happen to stand pat, this would def. change the "we are owed everything in life" mentality of our team and our current starters.

@cheers – You don’t have to do something as radical as benching the entire starting five to get the point across. all you have to do is bench them whenever you feel they aren’t producing or haven’t “flipped the switch” for that night’s game. Anytime coach feels a bench player will contribute more than a starter than the switch should be made. If this happens a lot due to a nagging injury or just due to the fact a certain player doesn’t give his all versus lesser teams than i would consider giving the starting position to someone else…

I like the idea. Sheed should come off the bench as well as Dice. Use Amir and Max and see what they can do. I would like to leave Stuckey in his impact role off the bench though, he can rotate in more often however. I too would prefer Joe D comes through with a kick ass trade.

@Cheers…Personally I could only see Maxi replacing Dyess in the starting line-up at the beginning of next year unless our starting unit continually has slow starts in games nex year.

In a related point though, I think it’ll be very interesting to see who finishes the games this year (assuming no major deals go through). Basically for the last 5 years it’s been CB/Rip/Tay/Sheed and either Ben or McDyess finishing important games. We saw Maxi finish some games last year and Stuckey as well during the playoffs, but I think we’ll have a lot more variation in our end of game lineups this year. It’ll be interesting to see how the core group reacts to not being the automatic end of game option.

I’d be surprised if we signed one of these guys quickly. I really feel like Joe D wants to see what Sharpe can do in the summer league games before he signs anyone.

I would take Posey from this list, but not at the full mid level for 4/5 years, so I don’t think we’ll have a chance at him. Of the remaining 3 I think Pietrus is the one who I like the most (although I admit, i haven’t seen much of Miles). He’s the best defender, he’s athletic and he has a pretty good 3 pt. shot. Every team that has a chance of being good in the East has a quality SF besides Toronto. Deng/Pierce/Turkoglu/Igoudala/Marion/Lebron… Pietrus would give us another quality SF defender to throw at those guys come playoff time.

Please, don’t offer Posey a deal for 3 or more seasons!!!
I’m sure he is looking to cash in for 5mill per for at least 2 seasons. He’s probably going to end up getting The Contract That Some Team Regrets Giving…. some 4 or 5 year deal.

I think Posey is great as a role player for championship teams, but let’s find our own. I’d prefer throwing less dollars at Pietrus, Miles, and Jones. Hopefully, we’ll get our own Posey-like presence from a bench player, be it Stuckey, Amir, or a new guy.

CJ Miles would come very cheap and could be every bit as effective as Pietrus and Jones as a SG/SF backup.

sorry for the third post in a row. I looked CJ Miles status up. The Jazz just sent him a qualifying offer of about 1.2mill, so he is restricted. According to the article in the SLC Tribune “The only way Miles could be packaged in a Jazz deal this summer would be through a sign-and-trade, which would bring him a minimum three-year contract.”

i’ll admit, i’m not good at this part of the game so i’ve stayed out of the “but what about ______” conversations. but posey? last i knew, championships or not, he was jersey popping, audience taunting, heinrich tackling trash. as always, i trust joe’s judgement, but i never want to see posey in a pistons uniform.

“Looking for #3 PG, to play behind Stuckey?”

What about Afflalo?

"Looking for #3 PG, to play behind Stuckey?"

What about Livingston?

Hunter can fill that spot while he’s still recovering.
I have given up on my Brand dream.

Yeah, I’m also trying not to hear the Looking At Posey part of the post. Pietrus, Jones, and Miles could all be really good values and would give us some good guys with solid attitudes. I could really see Miles being a big surprise – the Jazz have developed him for the past three years with no injuries. He could be ready to breakout. Also, I don’t think the Jazz will be too agressive in keeping him since they are loaded at the 2 with Korver, Brewer, Almond, and Harping.

@Cheers,

I’m glad your not advocating that, because it would be a disaster.

I don’t think it would necessarcily be a disaster and I think a lot of it coincides w/ Jim’s point of who ends the games.

I could see Dyess for sure moving back to the bench and potentially Sheed coming off the bench as well. Maybe it will light a fire under Sheed’s ass a little more.

The problem is, if Curry doesn’t enable the young guys to close games out during the regular season – then what happens come playoff time when Chauncey is chucking up shots w/ 15+ secs left in the shot clock and turning it over? I know Stuckey was pretty solid this year, but that doesn’t speak for some of our other young guys who may be more determined to win then our starters (and therefore, be on the floor in the end).

I could see Rasheed being pretty useful as a bench player, he seems like his ego could handle it. In fact, seems like in his later years he could be the perfect sixth man.

I don’t think Billups’ ego could handle coming off the bench. Sign and trade Billups to GS for Biedrins?

Starters: Stuckey, Hamilton, Prince, Maxiell, Biedrins
Bench: Afflalo, sharpe, Wallace, Amir

and some other pick-ups either from the Biedrins pkg or FA?
I am assuming GS wants to keep Ellis at SG and will look for a distributor. Or maybe we’ll try to get Ellis too? Joe wanted another combo guard.

I like the idea of pushing the youngsters into the starting lineup as soon as possible, especially if we don’t pull off any moves. I mean we’re looking all over the league for new guys to plug in, but I like a lot of the ones we have. It may hurt our regular season record, but I think it’d make us much much stronger for the playoffs if we’ve got 8 guys who are playing at a starter level.

I am confused about one thing though – I’m under the impression that Sharpe will be a post guy, but the comments lead me to think most are seeing him as a SF. Did I miss something on where we’re planning on playing him?

Why not bring Sheed off the bench and break up this “any of our 5 can score” mentality, which is passive basketball. That way when we do go to the bench, there is no drop off in scoring.

You put some guys on the bench, roles are clearly defined.

Shinons

Sharpe looks like a 4 in the video only because he was playing the 4. Dumars said he has more of a wing game, shooting and ball handling skills. Dumars sees him as a SF.

while it would be hard to bench a player with his skills, if we still have rasheed around next season, i want him coming off the bench. he’s not getting any better and it’s become obvious to me that we can’t rely on him for much other than occasional regular season dominance, playoff meltdowns and clips of him being a dick to his teammates.

i said it last summer and i’ll say it again. no team that relies on rasheed wallace as it’s heart and soul will win a championship. we need to shift our focus onto younger, more mature, motivated players.

though i guess i’d be ok with him starting at the beginning of the season to show that he still has market value. but i get the sad feeling that by this time anybody interested in sheed knows exactly what they’re going to get.

Interesting. He’ll make an awfully big 3 – I’ll be excited to see how he makes the transition. Thanks for the info Aaron.

Everywhere I go, it seems like everyone is talking about trading Sheed, and now there’s even talk of benching him? Why don’t people understand that we have no choice other than to keep Sheed in the starting lineup. We have no other centers. Our roster is loaded with PF’s, but no centers!Even Sheed isn’t a real center… he would be more effective as a power forward.

If we make the Billups for Biedrins trade mentioned above, then trading Sheed would become feasible. But if we don’t pick up another center, then Sheed is staying right where he is. There’s nothing else we can do.

Regarding free agency, I’d like to see us go after Pietrus or Posey. Both are good all-around players. I don’t know anything about Miles. And, James Jones is just a poor man’s Jarvis Hayes. He doesn’t have the toughness of guys like Pietrus or Posey.

Jim: I’m going to disagree with you re: Toronto @ the 3. If Jamario Moon has better consistency and gets into double figures nightly, then Toronto will be good. If he doesn’t, they won’t.

Cheers: I like the idea of Sheed off the bench … if we had a viable replacement. I don’t think we have one. Samb can’t start (I hope he can at least earn a few minutes of playing time each night for the better part of 82 games in the league this year). Are we going to start Theo Ratliff? Really? Yikes man, yikes.

Here is a list of players we have under contract listed at 6’11 and taller (according to ESPN): Sheed, Plaisted (gonna be in Europe anyway), and Samb. Here’s a list of people that we have who weigh more than 235 (Sharpe excluded because he’ll probably play at 230): Dice, Max, and Plaisted. My gut instinct when I see that, is: “Yeesh”. Where is the muscle on this team? We got a bunch of string-beans who are even taller but weigh less than Wally Szczerbiak (6’7", 244 according to ESPN). We haven’t had a title since Ben, and while Rasheed is a solid post defender, when we had Ben was the last time we had a thick guy in the middle, hence my penchant for Diop. Seriously (and this is where I’m going to get killed), I would love to sign and start Diop (hell, I might even give him the full MLE the more I think about how well he’d fit on our team), and bring Sheed off the bench. The team as presently constituted though, as I said to you on G Chat, we’re in a don’t miss out on, but can’t get past the ECF, purgatory.

I’m back, because I just thought of a trade idea: Sheed to the Nuggets for Camby, plus another player like Chucky Atkins to make the salaries match. Whaddaya think?

we need sheed cause we don’t have real centers, even though he’s not a real center?

sheed’s role on this team needs to be diminished, period. however we make that happen. if that means amir becomes our primary center so be it. if that means we pick up a center in a trade, so be it.

either way, relying on him the way we have been and hoping that this year things won’t end like they did last year, or the year before, or the year before, is just stupid.

for one reason or another sheed is no longer a championship caliber player. joe knows it. the league knows it. most of us know it. it’s time we started placing our bets on an unknown quantity, rather than a guaranteed loss.

The 11 current guys under contract, which will include Sharpe, plus Theo and Lindsey brings us up to 13.

If we are thinking of bringing Ratliff back for another year, it could mean that we thinking of keeping Cheikh in the D-League for one more year.

Ratliff’s defense is still good enough that at a minimum he could help Amir’s low post offensive game by going against Amir in practice.

If Hunter and Ratliff come back I would expect that we will split the MLE between a third point guard and a either a SF or big depending on what is available on how fast we think Sharpe can play some serious minutes as Tay’s backup.

We also need to sign Jason to a contract extension.

That is about all I see us doing this summer unless Joe D. can find a steal of a deal somewhere.

@Aaron N:
“Sign and trade Billups to GS for Biedrins?”

GS would have to include someone else, Biedrins is not worth a Chauncey contract, yet. I’ve been advocating a Biedrins pick up for months, but I think this would be a mistake unless GS added another sexy piece to the table. And there is no way they’d add Ellis, I doubt they’d sign and trade Ellis for Chauncey straight up.

With Davis gone, GS is likely to sign Biedrins and Ellis and stay as is.

Back in April, I was talking to a friend of mine who is a GS fan. He was much more in favor of keeping Biedrins and Ellis and letting Davis walk. He wanted the team to build around B/E, and let Davis take his contract, his injuries, his attitude and likelihood of “phoning it in” in too many games.

I agree with him, I think GS made a wise move. If they decide to move Ellis to PG, they could have some extra $$ to throw at a 4, or make moves with picks and contracts for a defense-minded solid 4.

@LB:
Diop it already! :)

“Sheed to the Nuggets for Camby”

Sheed, AI, and Melo all on the same team? Wow. They’d need to add Gil and Artest for the Crazy All Stars. The move would work for us, as it would ease our glut of 4s and Camby would fit in well. Sheed would be great in their offense since he’d open up the lanes for Melo and AI. I just can’t imagine Denver adding another volatile figure.

Cheers, I think Jim had the best answer. It’s about who ends the game. Last season, Flip did a good job of getting the youngsters minutes where they could succeed. This year, it needs to be (and I think it will be) open competition for minutes. Especially the minutes at the end of the game.

re: sheed for camby

The community here discussed this and other DEN trades at length at the end of the season. If Joe were to explore something like this, I’d like to see Kleiza’s name included, although I doubt Denver would go for that.

LB…I wasn’t implying that Toronto won’t be good this year. I was just saying Jamario isn’t nearly as offensively talented as other SF’s on Eastern Conference playoff teams. If O’Neal can revert back to 90% of what he was, then they have a pretty good top 3 of Calderon/Bosh/O’Neal who’s skills would seem to complement each other well.

Do we really have to put really on the end of our questions? Really?

Ok onto the matters at hand…

Is Jamario Moon really going to improve THAT much considering he’s now 28 years old and he’s coming off of his rookie season? I doubt it… Jermaine O’Neal is a back problem away from Toronto being in the lottery next season…

Toronto still lacks depth, and now they lack it at the PG position. They may push the 50 win mark next season, but acquiring O’Neal seems to defeat the purpose of run ’n gun international basketball.

oh and, hell yeah I’d start Ratliff if it means he’ll fill the role of a Nazr Mohammed with max 20 minutes a night and more minutes for Amir and Maxey.

@LB:

“Cheers: I like the idea of Sheed off the bench … if we had a viable replacement. I don’t think we have one. Samb can’t start (I hope he can at least earn a few minutes of playing time each night for the better part of 82 games in the league this year). Are we going to start Theo Ratliff? Really? Yikes man, yikes.”

Come on man. This is the problem with people like you. We are in a NBA where the true center position means shit anymore. Look, there are 48 minutes in a game and while Sheed isn’t playing, someone else needed to fulfill that role. Honestly, I’m sick of the same we need someone big, we need a vet, we need this for the center role. We’ve done this w/ nazi, dale davis, elden campbell and ratliff. What has this done for us?

I would change things up in a heartbeat and play small ball with Max/Amir at the 4/5 (depending on the day) or even throw Samb in there. Seriously, how much longer are we going to go with saying Sheed needs to start unless we can find a viable replacement big man? Who cares?! Even our big man Sheed got his ass handed to him by Kendrick Perkins. This isn’t to say, as you mentioned, the li"ghter guys", Samb, Max, Amir wouldn’t also get their ass handed to them, but I can promise you one thing, they will try their ass off and be exciting as hell to watch. It’s now been 4 years w/ the same bullshit story for Sheed.

I say play Amir/Max plently more minutes then Sheed/Dyess and teach them to finish games. I still think Dyess is important for finishing games but these young guys need to learn. And, hell, as fans, I think we are owed some exciting basketball. To be honest, the most exciting Pistons bball I saw all last year was summer league w/ Stuckey, Afflalo and Samb.

Just to recap, I’d give our young guys PLENTY more minutes. They don’t need to start but at least share equal, if not more minutes, then Billups, Sheed and Dyess. Tay and Rip still pretty much bring it and should be rewarded as such but as a basketball fan and for the future of our franchise, I would love to see Stuckey, Afflalo, Amir, Max get more minutes. So, we go through some growing pains, but at least it’ll be exciting and maybe light a fire under our vets asses…

@shinons

Wow that would be a hell of a team, only Artest would play defense but they would score 100 plus every night, assuming their egos can tolerate each other.

giving the young guys “more minutes” died when flip went out the door… now it’s time to play the young guys and move the old guys

including Rip!

JAWAI FOR PRESIDENT!

“I don’t think Billups’ ego could handle coming off the bench. Sign and trade Billups to GS for Biedrins? "

MY ego couldn’t handle being benched if I was as productive as Chauncey. Frankly, I’d be pissed. CJ Miles has promise, but we’ve been awfully picky at the backup SF. Hayes was fine.

because of the move clippers made on davis….now pistons has no chance on obtaining a true center from the clippers, kaman. they’re never gonna let go of that guy now, or at least, theres no need for them to get a point guard (like billups). camby is the only true center left with experience. maybe billups for camby/another player then get amare for wallace…

stuckey
rip
prince
amare
camby

OR

stuckey
rip
melo
amare
camby

if we can only see what in joe’s mind!!!!

@Kevin S.:

“Hayes was fine.”

If by “fine” you mean “terribly streaky”, a “poor defender” and “a bust”, then I agree with you. Otherwise, I’d love to have a hit from your pipe.

its funny how the players from the draft picked by the pistons are in “trade machine” now in espn.

Re Hayes, I have to agree with Mike P. I really, really, really wanted Hayes to be fine, and maybe it’s possible Flip gave up on him too early in the playoffs, but Jarvis sure wasn’t doing anything to earn minutes.

don’t see any other blockbuster trade that joe can pull other than this one:

games.espn.go.com/nba/features/traderesult?players=1727~1975~125~63~530~1724~883&teams=8~8~8~7~7~7~21&te=&cash=

Spurs are in the running for Maggette, perhaps Pistons should take a stab at him?
Sheed/A.I./Carmelo/K-Mart/J.R.Smith/ plus G.Karl would make a great season long documentary.

maggette to detroit…..? why settle for less if we can get melo instead. maggette is an undersize sf, rip is taller than him at shooting guard.

@Ric:
Phoenix would be completely out of their minds to trade away their franchise player for Rasheed Wallace.

@Ric:
Because Maggette could be had for the mid-level and could be our SG/SF off the bench. I don’t see it happening, but that’s a much more shrewd move than taking on Melo’s $14.4 million salary. And we’d have to give up a ton more to get Melo instead of just our MLE, which is expendable save for what we need to make available for contract extensions.

mike, u r right, phoenix is out of their minds….the thing is, i kinda’ agree with keith langlois

“Suns-Stoudemire marriage is lukewarm. They have concerns about his defensive lapses and he’s chafed at the management innuendo that’s made him a scapegoat from past failures.”

in addition to that, the suns are making a run for the two former mvp nash and shaq for the title, also, it having wallace instead of amare would give phoenix a financial burden breathing.

about magette, i don’t think he’d go for a team that would not allow him to start.

melo could easily be traded with chauncey….furthermore, melo and camby could be traded with chauncey/prince/dyess. this works, or at least under the cap.

@ric:
Even with Stoudamire’s less-than-perfect relationship with Suns management, they traded away Marion partially to help their locker room issues. Moving Stoudamire would signal that the locker room problems are not caused by the players… They’ve moved one perennial all-star and a winning coach already, moving another of their stars would be a very foolish move, something I can’t see Steve Kerr doing.

As for Maggette, he’s gone on record saying he’d be interested in Boston’s offer, and you can rest assured he wouldn’t start in front of Allen or Pierce. The Spurs have shown interest, and would they start him before Bowen? Doubtful.

I think these offers has made Maggette consider the option of being a sixth man on a championship contender. Detroit is one of those, and he could get big minutes backing up tay and rip.

@ric:
“melo could easily be traded for Chauncey”

its not a question of money, its a question of interest.

“Denver denied that it was looking to trade Anthony, but the rumors have persisted. Detroit recently offered Chauncey Billups and Tayshaun Prince for Anthony, but the Nuggets weren’t interested. Denver countered with an offer of Allen Iverson or a package built around Marcus Camby, but the Pistons are only interested in Anthony.”

“If by "fine" you mean "terribly streaky", a "poor defender" and "a bust", then I agree with you. Otherwise, I’d love to have a hit from your pipe.”

He wasn’t all that streaky. He was a solid offensive threat, but you are correct that he wasn’t a great defender.

Wallace for Amare isn’t happening… Period.

Looking back at Hayes’ game log, maybe “streaky” is the wrong word. “spotty” might be better, as he had “spots” of good offensive moments throughout long, terrible droughts of being anything BUT a “solid offensive threat”. After the all star break, Hayes was complete and total garbage with a few clusters of good games.

We can absolutely do better.

Like Toledo Joe said above, “I really, really, really wanted Hayes to be fine”. So did I, I really liked Jarvis when he first joined us, and was impressed with how things started off with him. But there is absolutely zero evidence anyone can show that validates Detroit keeping Hayes after his shit performance after the all-star game (and through the playoffs).

Hayes put up nearly identical numbers after the all-star break. I wasn’t a fan of the signing, but he improved dramatically from the season prior. What were we expecting?

Maggette would likely start in the backcourt with Parker (seeing as Barry and Finley are FA) and Ginobili would probably continue his 6th man role. But if he can be had for the MLE, it’s certainly worth a shot.
I actually think a Billups/Anthony trade makes a bit of sense from a Denver perspective, though unlikely. Another year of C. Atkins or A. Carter/A.I. in the backcourt isn’t gonna get it done. Iverson is better playing next to a bigger guard and reached the Finals in ‘01 that way. It’s evident that Denver’s “superstar” pairing isn’t going to net a championship. What’s that, 8 straight playoff losses now? I think they need to choose between the two. Anthony obviously is much younger and more desireable, but I think it would be easier to pair Billups/A.I. along with a frontcourt of Camby/Martin/Nene/Kleiza/ (plus Smith & Najera if brought back), than to rebuild their backcourt.

Ric: We already tried to get Melo, but the Nuggets rejected the offer. And, unfortunately, the Suns aren’t trading Amare for anyone.

Cheers, Kyle, and everyone else: Starting Amir at center simply does not work. If you think starting Sheed is a “guaranteed loss”, just wait til you see what would happen with an undersized, inexperienced player as our starting center. Let’s not forget we have already won a title with Sheed in the starting lineup… in fact, he was the player who put the team over the top. So give the man some credit. If you’re upset about the Pistons lack of intensity, blame Billups and Prince. But don’t blame Sheed.

Remember, the single most important thing a team can do to win a title, is to play tough interior defense. That’s what Sheed provides, which our young guns cannot. With Amir at center we would go from a 59 win team to a 49 win team or worse. Basically, you’re advocating that we try to copy the “small ball” style that teams like Golden State have tried to use. My question is, why would you want to imitate an inferior style of basketball?

Lawyerboy seems to get it. Excellent post regarding the lack of size and toughness on the current roster.

Well, Diop is no longer an option…

hmm, that hyperlink did not hyperlink. hypothetically, this is the one. anyway, the gist is that he’s going back to Dallas.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=Al8A9ZUcuv7uVJP.4ZA.S.68vLYF?slug=ap-mavericks-diop&prov=ap&type=lgns

joe: i would never dismiss melo and stoudemire not being traded to pistons or any other team until late february…..remember garnett???? i know what everyone is gonna say, that’s different, blah blah….but it’s kinda’ hard to eat what u just said, kinda’ like “i would never go out with that chick again” kinda thing…..so, lets see what happen in the summer and during regular season, besides you’re forgetting what joe’s mentality that he’d never stop improving this team and also “everyone’s in play”

no biggie with diop….i rather get okafor over diop. but offcourse, i rather get kaman out of all the center that pistons could afford.

LB, you’re not fooling me. You just toned back the aggressiveness and changed your name to Joe.

Again, I ask the question because I haven’t seen a good answer: what does Diop bring that Ratliff doesn’t for about 1/5 the cost? I don’t understand the infatuation. In a vacuum, I’d maybe rather have Diop. But if it’s going to cost me the entire MLE over 5 years, then freaking forget it. Nazr’s contract was one of the 20 worst in the entire NBA, giving Diop the full MLE to be our 5th big man would be an equally big gaffe. I know, I know, I know “size… blah… toughness… blah blah… can defend bigger men… blah blah blah”, but didn’t Maxiell actually do a good job on Howard? Who is there more imposing than Howard in the entire league? Diop is a redundant part that’s going to cost us at least 5 times more, and the only real change is the name and jersey number.

Also, I kind of want Diop to go back to Dallas so I can draft Desaganick Diopere again for my fantasy team. If you could combine those 2 guys, you’d have a second round fantasy player. Sadly, most leagues do not allow this.

@Other Matt:
“what does Diop bring that Ratliff doesn’t for about 1/5 the cost?”

You know I’m already with you on this one— but I wanted to comment anyway. Let’s reverse the question:

“what does Ratliff bring that Diop doesn’t, albeit at only 1/5 the cost?”

Answer: the ability to be a 5th option on offense instead of none at all, plus better defense. :)

other matt and mike….i’d have to agree, there is no point on wasting, even part of the mle for diop.

Apparently not an amiable personality and familiar smile… which are always a good reason to spend $31 million over 5 years for an incredibly one dimensional player.

lets save that money for someone else.

*good reasons to spend $31 million over 5 years on an incredibly one dimensional player.

Have to fix that before the grammar police beat me up. I’m an engineer, these things will happen from time to time.

on a different topic….warriors and clippers are playing tag…hilarious! now its warriors turn to make a move on one of clippers…..they could trade players to each other back and fourth back and fourth, but i wonder if its gonna make any difference…hahaha! pathetic!

othermatt….that excuse is ancient.

ric, the funny thing is that bad grammar is a HUGE pet peeve of mine. I text in complete sentences and include proper punctuation (except sometimes I use too many commas, whatever). It’s late on the east coast and I’m having a little trouble sleeping, so I made a mistake. I caught it, though!

I need to break it down to the one thing I want most next season. Play the bench during the playoffs. Flip lost the one thing that made us dangerous and that was what cost him his job. I believe quite a few of us were extremely upset about Flips playoff rotation or lack thereof.
The more I think about what is on offer and the cost, it makes me think that a coach with some balls could take this team as it is back to the finals. A big solid workhouse in the middle will help. I think Curry is the difference though, we sink or swim based on what he does.

On a different tangent, this idea that every team has regarding the free agent class of 2010 is seriously flawed. No more than five franchise players will be available, most will want to play in big markets and teams like Memphis are cutting salary? I think Joe D is going to make a lot of people look very stupid that year.

laughton i agree wtih you about 2010….where the hell did people get the idea that james, wade, bosh etc etc would all be available at that time…..before that time comes….there’s team in line already, or maybe a deal set in stone already at that time…another thing that nobody can predict, what happens injury occur….? there’s so many variable that could happen that could make the 2010 class not so great, or whatever they call it.

If we somehow get Amare for Wallace, I’ll wear my old kerr jersey to every game.

if we get amare….ill either wear a dumars jersey…or the new pistons jersey for amare.

“Again, I ask the question because I haven’t seen a good answer: what does Diop bring that Ratliff doesn’t for about 1/5 the cost?”

One extra rebound every three games. That is the correct answer. Whether it is a good one, I don’t know. Diop has proven himself able to defend big centers, but so have the Pistons.

kevin……NOTHING!!!!!!!

Totally off topic:

@Laughton:
“I think Curry is the difference though, we sink or swim based on what he does.”

I want to comment on that “we sink or swim”. I love reading that.

Just wanted to let you know, do you know how f#$king cool I think it is that our Australian brother is just as much a Pistons fan as we are? I haven’t mentioned this at all, but I find it amazing at just how far this team’s effect reaches. You’re just as Detroit as any of us, Laughton. May you make it to The Palace one day…

“ric, the funny thing is that bad grammar is a HUGE pet peeve of mine. I text in complete sentences and include proper punctuation (except sometimes I use too many commas, whatever). It’s late on the east coast and I’m having a little trouble sleeping, so I made a mistake. I caught it, though!”

In doing so, you have compounded your folly.

You did not capitalize “Ric” at the beginning of your introductory sentence. Further, I would propose the use of a colon after his name, instead of a comma.

I’ll further add that bad grammar, by definition, cannot consitute a “peeve”. Rather, you should say that you are peevish with respect to grammar’s misuse.

I’ll not dwell on your use of “text” as a verb.

Your colloquial use of “whatever” ought to set afire any self-proclaimed grammar gendarme. At minimum, its use warrants an exclamation point.

You should have capitalized “east coast” (sic). Lastly, I am confounced by the punctuation of your ultimate sentence. May I propose the following substitute?

“As it is late here, I attribute my grammatical atrocities to sleep deprivation. Please credit me for catching my mistake.”

;P

@Kevin S.:
Shut the fuck up.

@Mike Payne: Thank you for your kind words. Believe me when I say that I will be at the Palace within the next five years, I just have to finish my studies first. I also happen to love the Tigers and Lions, which is damn weird. Used to follow the Jays when I played baseball as a teenager, but for some reason Detroit/Michigan has completely captivated me and it is the first place I want to visit when I eventually get over there.
Also its nice to be able to share my love of Detroit sport with other like minded people. Everyone here thinks I am a crack-pot.

@Laughton:
Man, I get back to the Detroit area once every three to five years at best. When you make your way there, I’ll join. I’m sure a lot more DBB readers would come back for that reunion as well. Hell, I’ve even been thinking about a last minute trip to join the LA DBBers at the Vegas Summer League this year. As terribly unlikely as it is, I sure would love that.

Cheers to you, Laughton. And our other friends across the globe (good morning Ohad, IsraeliPiston, I’m looking at you fellas.)

Okay, all of you Diop-haters you’re all really missing the boat on this whole Diop-big guy thing. Diop fits the bill of what we need. It’s not that I’m fixated on Diop particularly, it’s just that we need Diop or a guy like him. Ratliff is 6’10 and 235. He’s a lot more like Sheed and Amir than anyone else. His blocks come from timing leaps, not strength and going body-to-body. Other Matt took the exact opposite stance to what I’m most vigorously arguing: We need a bulky/strong guy to patrol the middle (role formerly occupied by Ben).

Other Matt: We beat the bloody crap out of the Magic WITHOUT our starting PG for most of that series so I don’t care how well Maxiell can defend Howard. If Maxiell fouled out of every game in under 3 minutes we’d still have handed them their ass. Also, while I tend to be a Nazr apologist, not only is what you said about the 20-worst contracts clear hyperbole, it’s also important to note that Nazr is just 6’10" 250, not 7’0 and/or 280

kevin: If you wanna play stats, I’d be happy to … 4.83 and 5.00; 6.95 and 6.08; 6.56 and 6.12; and finally 9.33 and 9.17. Care to take a guess as to what those numbers represent? Here’s what: Kendrick Perkins’ points per game and rebounds per game averages over his career, this past regular season, this past season’s playoffs and finally the one with the 9s … what he averaged against us in the ECF.

Now please, get me a stat that disproves my argument that Perkins consistently whipped our ass far better than any (non) ass-whipping he’s handed out in the NBA, ever. Hell, if you juxtapose the stats, he fell flat on his face in the five games he played in the NBA Finals (averaging 4 and 3.6 over basically 5 games) and he didn’t even get hurt until the 2nd half of Game 4. He also sucked big time against Cleveland (5 and 5 exactly). Besides beating on us, he only did decently against Atlanta at: 7.57 and 6.43.

So what’s the common link between who kills Perkins and who Perkins kills? Size. Atlanta’s primary center is Al Horford who is 6’10, 245, according to Yahoo! Using their measurements, Sheed is 6’11, 230, Big Z is 7’3, 265 and Pau Gasol is 7’0, 260. Is any of this making sense? Because it makes perfect, eye-opening sense to me. We need someone big to beat up that wide-load, talentless fat ass. We need to put a freakin’ body on him that is comparable in size or can compensate with far greater strength (ie: Ben).

Now, all that being said, let’s get a guy who plays D, is about 7’ and at least 260 pounds. Then, I’ll feel confident. For the record, Diop is listed at 7’, 280. Hell, for OUR team, I’d actually consider tossing him MLE money, it’s just the five years that Dallas gave him that scares me.

As we all know, Diop is no longer available, so I probably should have just said “we need a guy like him”.

Lawyerboy, the answer to your dilemma is Kwame Brown, a one-year contract, and a hypnotist to make him realize he can physically destroy any player this side of Dwight Howard.

QD: I’m all in. Have Joe throw 3.5 million at him; I don’t care, I’m on board. You and I have always agreed that he is an underrated defender in the post, right? I’m going to take your decision not to argue with my assertions as validation of my view. Is that a fair assumption?

Lawyerboy makes good points about having a bulky rebounder C to complement more agile PFs. Even though Shaq and Shawn Marion had similar rebounding numbers Phoenix saw a huge increase in team rebounding when they fielded one big and one mobile rebounder (Shaq + Amare) instead of two mobiles (Amare + Marion). I’m onboard the Kwame Brown bandwagon if Diop isn’t available. Maybe Mutumbo thinks he has a better chance at a ring in Detroit? Patrick O’Bryant from Golden State? Kurt Thomas doesn’t fit the body type but his game is to play like a classic rebounding center. Detroit was one of the worst defensive rebounding teams in the NBA last year and somehow that has to change.

First of all, get rid of Wallace and Billups! Get some guys who will show up each and every night!

Ric: You said “…you’re forgetting what joe’s mentality that he’d never stop improving this team and also "everyone’s in play"”

I didn’t forget this at all. I’m just saying that we should make good moves, instead of terrible moves. My point is that we need a real center if we’re going to win another championship. That means we can’t play some small ball, “Al Harrington as a center” type of crap, which is what Cheers was suggesting when he said we could play Amir at center. Therefore, we have only two possible options:

1. Play Sheed at center.
2. Aquire another player who can be our starting center.

Continuing on from option #2, it’s apparent that there aren’t many options out there right now.

The problem with Kwame Brown is that he plays like a big pussy. He has all the physical tools to be one of the best defensive centers in the league, unfortunately he can’t put it all together.

I really hope we can get a better option than Brown, which is why I mentioned Camby. With our current roster if you replaced Sheed with Camby, we would have to be the favorites to win it all next year.

Diop is another decent option, but he’s much more unproven, and has even less offensive talent than Camby. Could he play 30-35 minutes per game without fouling out? I have no clue, because he’s never done it before.

Other than these guys, there really aren’t many other options… maybe we can go after Rasho Nesterovic or David Harrison from the Pacers? Seriously, that’s how desperate it looks right now.

On a positive note, Harrison is a perfect player to match up against Perkins because he’s even bigger, and even less talented than Perkins.

Two other long shots: Kurt Thomas, or Etan Thomas. Both are just 6’10", but both are tough as nails and could easily stop Perkins from getting easy dunks and offensive rebounds against us.

I think we’re over-exaggerating our rebounding woes. True, we are in the bottom 10 in total rebounding and bottom 6 in defensive rebounding. But we were 10th in offensive rebounding, opposing teams were dead last in rebounds against us, and had the 8th fewest offensive rebounds against us. The stats are just skewed because of the fact that we allowed by far the fewest attempts per game and attempted the 10th fewest. By this, the differential would give a more accurate portrayal of our rebounding performance. We were 7th in total rebounding differential, 9th in defensive rebounding differential, and 7th in offensive rebounding differential.

But as Homer Simpson said, you can use facts to prove anything that’s even remotely true. Anyone who watched the games knows that the problem was that the past couple seasons we’ve given up killer second chances in key situations – something that doesn’t happen as often when you’ve got a guy whose role is to rebound, prevent second chances, and bang around inside. Not shoot 4.1 three pointers per game.

I guess I forgot to include the point of that rant – we’re not so desperate that we need to sign Kwame Brown. A one year deal isn’t much of a risk, but then our MLE is shot for next year (I think) and he’s eating minutes that could go to the guys that make up our future.

I agree we need a banger inside. I like Kwame for a year. He doesn’t have anything to prove in Det in that he wasn’t traded for or signed a big contract so everybody isn’t looking at him nor expecting anything big. Plus, I think if he can win a ring (though he’s not a franchise player, obviously) he gets the last laugh at MJ & Phil J. If Sheed’s still in town and obviously Curry, they’ll ride his ass to make sure he doesn’t get complacent…Did I just say Sheed and not complacent in the same sentence..?

As for Maggette, he’s 6’6" and has can get to the basket. We don’t have anyone on the team that can..or will do that except Stuck. Maggette will start in place of Bowen in SA. Bowen wouldn’t mind coming off the bench nor would Ginobilli. Heck, Bowen is what, 37 this year? Anyone interested in a sign and trade with the clips for Maggette/Rip? Allows the Clips to have their scoring two guard while Gordon gets acclimated and we get a bit more athletic and have someone to get us in the penalty sooner and at least pick up a foul or two on the opponents interior big guys.

Regarding Perkins.. I don’t care what his stats are. Rebounding has always been about boxing guys out and going after the ball…being 7’ 280 doesn’t hurt either. When we have Sheed hanging out at the 3 point line and Dyess shooting 15-17 feet, which is where the prospective replacement/addition would be shooting from, everyone else underneath is going to get manhandled. I think it’s more of an offensive set were in. When was the last time Shaq absolutley dominated us in the paint on a consistent basis? Perkins just wants it more than Shaq or a number of other centers. Hustle and boxing out is what gets us rebounds..and we’re not getting that from Sheed in this respect.

I’m not all that sold on James Jones. But it appears he’s one viable option. Anyone interested in tendering an offer to Chris “Birdman” Andersen? Athletic, a big (though not a banger) and I would pay to go party with him and Sheed !!

I think Cuban paid Diop MLE due to the western conference. You’ve got Duncan, Bynum/Gasol, Chandler, Oden, Shaq…there’s alot of beef in the middle for alot of western conf teams. He really had no choice because Dirk and whoever the 3 is aren’t going to get it done against these teams with an overpowering 5.

As for Brand, he’ll sign with the Clips. He’s just gotta find a way to say no to 20M in a way that doesn’t reflect the fact that with Steven Jax, Ellis, Harrington and Nellie’s system, he’d never see the ball in the post. It’s alot of money, but what’s the point if you said winning and signing for less is what you want and who wants to run suicides all season long?

In case I forget, everyone have a happy 4th.

Darn, forgot to add Yao to the west conf centers list.

Kwame Brown seems like a perfect Wizard to Piston reclamation project. There seems to have been a steady flow of former Wizards who have produced for us…Jarvis aside.

I don’t think he would be “eating minutes” if he is given a specific role to fill. Big dude who clogs the middle on defense and boxes out. Isn’t that all Ben ever did?

On the other hand another “Kwame” with “issues” in Detroit might not be a good thing.

Lastly, promise… what about an RJ (from Mil) for Rip? I hate to lose Rip, but we again get more athletic, a guy who’s pissed off and certainly a better defender.

Big Fitz: “On the other hand another "Kwame" with "issues" in Detroit might not be a good thing.”

LOL !!

The league’s rigged and decimated to a point where turning on Pistons games is a chore.

Well, there is one other C that people are forgetting that I mentioned before…

Sheed for Eddy Curry/Wilson Chandler. I’m not going to say it’s the greatest idea in the world. But it’s better than some.

No offense intended to anyone – but we’ve talked about bringing in Kwame Brown, DeSagna Diop, Eddy Curry, and Z-Bo. Just because Amir’s not 30 pounds heavier or Maxiell isn’t 2 inches taller? I know I’m pretty much alone on the whole not needing a “true center,” but it just seems weird to me. I’m not calling any of those moves bad – I’m all for going for value guys – I’ll just take Maxiell guarding Howard over Z-Bo guarding Howard any day of the week.

Kwame Brown is the answer now?

Has everyone forgotten that his career involves 3 teams and the notoriety of being 1 of the biggest busts in the history of the NBA?

He doesn’t play defense, he doesn’t rebound, his hands are worse than Nazr’s and his attitude is suspect.

He wasn’t put in a position to succeed here in Washington, but he had a chance in LA and in Memphis he kept the pine warm. Enjoy the Kwame Brown era, he’s not the answer at Center.

god.. the man was booed on his own home floor in front of a national audience.

Shinons: The problem with Maxiell at center isn’t that he’s 2 inches too short. It’s that he’s 5 inches too short.

Amir could almost do it, but I would hate to throw him to the wolves so early. He’s 21 years old, and has barely even played in the NBA. If you play him at center he’s going to be giving up about 2-5 inches in height, and anywhere from 30-80 pounds on an average night. In other words, he’s going to take a serious beating throughout the course of the season. I don’t think it’s a good idea, or even fair to Amir, to do that to him.

2 things:

1) joejoejoe is the first to make a good point about improving team rebounding by bringing in a player with the kind of game Diop has. It’s still not enough to make me want to sign him (which is a moot point now, I know), but a good thought.

2) I’m with Boney and Shinions.

Did any of you watch the 5 games we played against the Magic. I don’t care that we “handed their asses to them”, Maxiell WAS NOT a defensive liability against Howard. I don’t care if he’s 5’3, he defended a legitimate 7 foot hulkbeast. He’s certainly capable of defending players like Howard for 10-15 minutes per night. You can still rotate Rasheed and McDyess to cover the other 20-25 minutes, and now a “true center” isn’t necessary for this season.

Would anyone here object to a sign and trade for Okafor? I don’t know what we give up and Charlotte would be idiots for doing so.

Out here, we’re waiting with baited breath how many times we hear variations with lamar/Artest trade. If I’m the MaLoofs, I make a somewhat bad deal just to get RonRon out. Hey, ronron for prince?…hold the beer.

I take joe d at his word, but does anyone think he put that “everone’s in play” just to rattle some trees? I know Sheed was around the palace last off season losing weight and whatnot, and I think the reason he was the only one at Curry’s conference had alot to do with Machiveilli reasons. You get everyone busting their ass in the offseason with the belief that “if Joe D trades me, I’m going to be sure to make him pay” all the while Joe D wants everyone to work out harder this offseason? Just a thought.

MarkButter in SoCal…I truly believe Joe D is actively looking to make a big trade but like he said, he’s not going to make a trade just to make a trade. However, I do think Joe D is smart enough to know that if no trades make sense this summer, his “everyone is in play” press conference could add a sense of urgency to the core group since the trade deadline isn’t until February of next year.

Mark: I think you and my good friend Cheers are being too optimistic in thinking Joe or Curry’s going to “light a fire”. I feel like Joe’s been trying to “light a fire” for a few years now. The only difference Curry can make from Flip is to make better decisions (though I have no large beef w/Flip’s decisions this past season). I don’t believe you can truly light a fire under these guys’ asses at this point. I see that being just wishful thinking. I mean, perhaps the Celtics wanted it more because they saw Doc as an unfairly (or if you have true perspective, fairly) lampooned coach, but I really doubt it. We all know how bad Allen, Pierce, and Garnett wanted it. Further, we saw firsthand how much desire guys like: Perkins (desire can make up a lot of ground on NO talent whatsoever) and Rondo had. Our guys (besides McDyess, Stuckey, Maxiell and maybe Hunter?), it just plain was not there. You bust your ass because you want it, not because someone tells you to want it.

I also want to echo what Jim says regarding the whole idea of “he’s not going make a trade just to make a trade”. One of Joe’s best executive qualities is his thoughtfulness (for opposite see: Dallas trade for Jason Kidd). He may speak at times like a reactionary (the majority of the press conference Jim is referencing), but he always tempers it with statements like the aforementioned. This team is good enough to tread water and return to the ECF next year, I’m just not sure we’re good enough than to be anything better than the ECF’s version of the early 90s Buffalo Bills. That being said, I’d rather be that than do what Dallas or Phoenix did and now possibly find myself on the outside of the playoffs looking in thanks to the presumed upswing of my two new favorite Western Conference squads: the Trailblazers and the Clippers.

It seems to me that the Pistons greatest need is an offensive weapon in the paint that requires a double team and gives Detroit high percentage points in the paint. Who also is a rebounder and a fierce defensive presence that prevents other penetrating wings from waltzing to the basket for easy buckets. I don’t see how Kwame Brown, Diop or any of the other mentioned big men do this any better than the guys we already have.

Boneheaded re-signing by the Wizards. Not convinced Arenas is the guy to quarterback them to title contention, even if he did get them back to the playoffs. They would have been better off trying to build around Butler and Jamison.

First of all, when I recommended Kwame Brown, I also recommended a hypnotist to come with. I kink of suggested him as a joke.

That being said he’s actually a great post defender. He does a great job of moving people off the block. He completely shut down Sheed everytime they went against each other.

And he sets great picks. As Kobe once said, “he’s like having an offensive lineman.” It’s a subtle thing, but Rip would benefit from his presence.

At $8mil a year, Kwame is one of the worst players of all time. For the veteran’s minimum or part of the MLE, he’s not bad.

So the primary justification for signing Diop, Kwame Brown or other scrubs is to handle Kendrick Perkins? “We’re talkin’ ’bout PERKINS, man.”

That would get us no closer to beating Boston, if anything it could take us a step backwards. While Perkins managed to average 9/9 against us Kevin F#%&ing Garnett put up 23/10 against us and Pierce put up 20/6/4. So we should spend our MLE on a backup center to handle Perkins? We have problems in our frontcourt against Boston, but not in the 5 position— at least nothing we can’t handle with a coach who will actually make the right adjustments (something Curry has already alluded to). I’m confident that with our roster as it stands now, lineup/matchup adjustments is all it would take to neutralize Perkins.

I’m with Other Matt, Boney, Shinons and others on this one. There is only one center in our conference who we should be concerned about— and our undersized PF Jason Maxiell defended him quite astutely. He deserves more of our MLE than any of those punks.

I think the point about getting a Center is not about dealing with any specific player (Dwight Howard, Kendrick Perkins, etc.) and more about a deficiency in the team.

When was the last time a team won a championship without a physical inside presence? Chicago? Ideally, Sheed would fulfill this need because he’s so skilled. At times he has. But not enough to win a title.

QD: Ben was THAT presence on our championship team. Sheed benefited greatly from being able to play defense with Ben. Sheed is really skilled, but he isn’t strong and motivated enough to do the grimy stuff. Garnett is twenty pounds heavier and a lot more enthusiastic than Sheed and he even hangs outside of the paint as much as Sheed does (just not all the way out to three point range) and leaves the grunt work to Perkins. That’s what I’m thinking about. The only guy that I think we (may or may not in the future) have who tends to stay in the lane on both sides of the ball is Ratliff. And while I like Ratliff just fine, I know he’s not a stud, and I don’t think he can push around a Perkins or Howard and keep them from getting their boards even if he works really hard.

@QD:
“I think the point about getting a Center is not about dealing with any specific player (Dwight Howard, Kendrick Perkins, etc.) and more about a deficiency in the team.”

I couldn’t agree more, that was precisely my point above. We don’t need to even think about making a single personnel adjustment for any Kendrik Perkins player in the league.

Where there is a deficiency, we are not going to get a player out of free agency that is going to fix it. I especially don’t want to blow our MLE on a backup 5 that is not a sure thing, especially when the minor problems could be solved by coaching.

There are, however, a handful of players I’d love to trade for that could be moved and would solve that problem: Biedrins, Kaman, Dalembert, Okafor, etc. I’ve been thinking about getting Biedrins at our 5 all year, yet hoping we’d be fine with our squad as is.

“@Kevin S.:
Shut the fuck up.”

This sentence is just a mess. Please rephrase.

“Now please, get me a stat that disproves my argument that Perkins consistently whipped our ass far better than any (non) ass-whipping he’s handed out in the NBA, ever. "

During the regular season, he averaged 7 ppg and 6 rpg. In the ECF, he averaged 1/3rd more minutes per game than he did during the regular season. One would expect him to average 9.2 ppg, and 7.9 rpg. He surpassed his expectation by all of 1.3 rebounds per game, about the same amount by which Garnett fell short.

Of course, I would prefer that we shut down a player like Kendrick Perkins. But to sign a player like Diop for the full MLE is like taking after a tack with a sledgehammer. Not that anyone would confuse Diop for a sledgehammer, mind you.

If we need to add heft, there will be plenty of teams happy to unload their big bodied second string centers at the trade deadline. I would rather see what Amir can do in 15-20 mpg than assume the worst and sign a guy to a four year deal simpyl because he is a known quantity.

@Kevin S.:
I don’t see how being a prick to commenters here makes DBB a better place. I’m only one small voice here, and I weather your “my opinion is fact” attitude just fine on my own. But this? Come on, man. That ain’t helping. In other words, STFU— and stick with comments like the one above that are totally valuable to this community.

I don’t think we need to worry about making personnel changes for Kendrik Perkins. Yes, he is good and gave us trouble. But Atlanta was able to take Boston to seven games and they had very athletic players in Al Thornton and others. I don’t know for sure but I suspect that Amir Johnson, Jason Maxiel and maybe even Cheikh Samb can provide enough Athleticism to counter the brute strength of Kendrik Perkins if coached properly and given a good coaching strategy. This, by the way was my biggest problem with Flip. He should have made substitutions and adjustments when our front court was getting outplayed but there is no evidence that I can think of that he did.

@Mike Payne

I say use even more wacky grammar and punctuation and misspells, dude would get a huge kick out of that.

@ShawninDC

I thought the same thing when I watched Flip coach.