The entire city of Boston is now on red alert.

This means a trade is looming, right? Dumars wouldn’t pay 8 mil per year for the fifth big.

@Cisco: that’s only $4mil/per, fortunately.

He’s no Zaza.

(I kid, I kid)

This will be an interesting experiment to follow.

Re-posted from the previous thread. I don’t like the move because I fear it takes minutes away from a young big. That doesn’t seem like a big problem if it is indeed a precursor to the bigger move that we all hope is coming.

1. Other Matt
   Jul 28th, 2008 at 7:21 pm

Okay, I’ll go on record and say that I don’t like this Kwame Brown thing.

Props, however, to LB for getting what he wanted.

Kwame’s now a Piston and I basically root for the jersey… so WOOOOO Kwame!

1. 270 Other Matt
   Jul 28th, 2008 at 7:23 pm

Yeah, I agree that this seems like a precursor to a bigger move. I’ll bet on Tay and Amir for Smith and some terrible contract.

AAAAAAAAhHHHH…….I blame Joel for this. Be careful what you wish for. Kwame is actually decent, but Other Matt is so right – where are the minutes? I’m not completely on the Amir wagon, but how am I ever gonna get the chance if the kid never plays? Like everyone I hope and pray for J smoove.

Wouldn’t it make sense to do the trade, and then the crappy FA signing? If the plan is to make a trade with Atlanta we are banking on them not doing something stupid like trading him straight up for Odom? If they do, we’re stuck paying our 5th big 4 mil? Serenity now…..

Rather than try and put in some deep input on this deal, I’m just going to say what I really think.

“This move confuses me.”

Joe is a genius. Seriously. Does this not seem like a familiar scenario? Former high pick, underachieved and unable to stick with a team, comes to Detroit and finally lives up to potential. I like this signing, I really do. Also, for what we paid if he does become a better player he will be the bargain of the year.

Joe Dumars got the best available true free-agent C at a reasonable price. I like what a big center does for spacing with ‘Sheed and ’Dyess and Maxiell on the floor next to him. I’m very happy with Kwame Brown in Detroit.

Not a Kwame fan, but I don’t think this necessarily means anything. $4 million for a backup center certainly isn’t outrageous even if the Pistons don’t make another move… Nazr was making almost 2X that amount.

Okay, Laughton, when you put it like that it makes me kind of excited. I still don’t like it, though, because I don’t know where the minutes come from. If minutes were to miraculously open up because, say, one of our bigs were to be moved for somebody like Josh Smith, then I’d feel better about it.

Maybe Arnie can do some voodoo on Kwame’s hands to make them flesh instead of stone.

Like many of you have said, this move probably indicates Dumars has another move planned, likely a trade involving one of the team’s bigs. I wonder who, exactly, will go out the door…?

Agreed Other Matt. We do have a surplus of bigs now, it certainly gives us a lot of flexibility in trades. I think it really opens the door for some of the other bigs to be shipped off, maybe in a deal for a superstar. Who knows, maybe Joe is done for the summer, I wouldn’t be upset if he was to be honest.

I think Kwame is a lot better than what his name represents.
He’s a bad #1 pick, yes… but an athletic HUGE center… young and fairly cheap…and maybe just the kind of player to blossom a bit more in Detroit.

I don’t think there are too many minutes to fight over at the 5… just the PF spot now. And i agree with most here, it seems something’s gotta give.

and don’t forget, it’s only two years! nicely done, Dumars.

In 03-04 Brown DID average 7.4 rpg and 10.9 ppg. Is it too early to make cake jokes?

I don’t see Brown starting no way.

I also think that this lessens the chance of a trade.

What I do see is Brown playing the role of Campbell, Davis and Ratliff except that Brown is younger when we signed him.

A nice addition who if healthy will get some minutes against the likes of Perkins, Bynum, Shaq, Howard, etc.

No trade coming and no way he starts. Dyess is not going back to the bench.

Probably Amir Johnson is getting traded. I have been watching Amir closely in regular season games and in the summerleague. In my opinion Amir is a little too overrated. He’s got great speed and can really run the floor but i don’t think he is a great leaper. He will grab a lot of rebounds and will block a lot of shots but his offensive game is very limited. I see his potential as a player like Tyson Chandler.

Only way Dyess goes back to the Bench is when Amir is ready to start.

People should keep in mind that only once has Brown ever averaged over 9.5 rebounds per 36 minutes and Amir averaged 11.1 last year and Dyess 10.5.

No way Brown plays other than in certain occasions against the really big guys.

He will also give Amir a nice big guy to bang up against in practice.

It’s more than I would expected for Kwame, but I think it’s a low risk/high reward deal. Remember this is less money and years than Nazr got. And since Kwame has a player option for the second year, he’ll be motivated to play hard.

I was the first to mention Kwame as someone to go after if he would accept a one-year deal to try to prove himself. This doesn’t solve my biggest concern: An eventual replacement for Sheed’s interior scoring (hopefully, Maxiell can add a move or two). With that in mind, I don’t think it necessarily means another trade is coming. Dyess might become this year’s Lindsey Ratliff.

But, this is some possible reasons for the DBB nation to be excited.

- Kwame plays great low post defense.

- He sets great picks. An over-looked skill (one that Rip will appreaciate).

- He’s a good rebounder (but needs to be better).

- Mentally, coming to the place where Ben Wallace a star will take the pressure off of him to be a scorer. He can concentrate on being Ben Wallace and not Tim Duncan.

- He’s coming to a team known for offering redemption.

- There’s a good mix of veterans and players his age. In Washington, he spent all his time alone playing video games while his teammates went out. It might be a better social situation for him.

Reasons to be nervous:

- Air Jordan may have done to his psyche what LB did to Darko’s.

I’ve been asking the question lately, “what does he provide that Theo Ratliff doesn’t for less money?”

So I present the following numbers:

Per 36 minutes:

Player A
10.4 pts
11.1 rbs
1.4 ast
1.1 stl
3.9 blk
1.8 to
6.6 fls

Player B
9.3 pts
9.3 rbs
2.0 ast
1.1 stl
1.3 blk
2.6 to
4.1 fls

Player C
7.7 pts
8.1 rbs
1.1 ast
0.6 stl
3.1 blk
1.5 to
4.7 fls

Plus, my dream of the Lions signing him to play Defensive End is closer to coming to fruition.

Player A = Amir Johnson
Player B = Kwame Brown (Laker games only)
Player C = Theo Ratliff (Piston games only)

I don’t think you can project Amir’s statistics out to 36 minutes. There will be drop off.

It takes a lot out of you having to battle for position with people that weigh a lot more than you. Much more so than racing up and down the court.

he provides an age of 26 and possibly a piece for future sucesses….not to mention i bet the lakers wouldnt have minded having kwame around in the finals as they had no inside presence(Def)

@Mike Payne: D’oh!

I think 4 dollars per year might still be overpaying for Kwame, though. Hasn’t Detroit had its fill of Kwames already?

I think blocks, rebounds, and steals are a fair number to project out since a lot of those plays he makes largely with hustle. I included Amir merely for reference. I know Kwame is beefier, but he seems to be largely the player that the Rattler is, albeit with more upside. This is a little more okay if he’s Ratliff’s replacement. I hope this is merely the first domino to fall.

(I don’t want this to spark another Amir debate, but I will offer this link, which shows that, statistically speaking, players don’t actually suffer a drop-off in efficiency/production with increased playing time. In other words, maybe we can project Amir’s stats out to 36 minutes. Back to our regularly-scheduled Kwame discussion …)

plus…..let this guy ruff up amir a bit, provide even more competition for playing time, we now basically have 2 functional units(besides backup 3)

But you can’t expect the same hustle from Amir over the course of 36 minutes as he gives in 18 minutes. Especially with guys leaning on him. It’s a lot to ask.

Brown will be strictly back of the bench type stuff and play some against the big centers like Shaq, Howard, Perkins, Bynum etc. The guys that weigh over 260 lbs.

Maxiell and Amir together can handle the lighter guys under 260.

My guess is that come this fall Amir will probably be up to 240 or so and with his skill, quickness, length and hops he will get plenty of minutes this year.

i just hope we trade amir part of a j smith deal…..at least josh is proven at 36 min

But you can’t expect the same hustle from Amir over the course of 36 minutes as he gives in 18 minutes. Especially with guys leaning on him. It’s a lot to ask.>>

Amir won’t get 36 minutes this year. In fact no one on the Pistons will get 36 mgp this year.

I figure Amir will get about 20 or so depending on how he continues to develop.

Sheed 25
Dyess 25
Amir 20
Maxiell 20
Brown 6
-————-
Total 96

If we trade Kwame and Teyshaun for a Josh Smith max contract, it’ll be one of Joe’s greatest swindles. I’d trade all 3 (Amir, Kwame, and Prince) for Josh Smith any day of the week. I have no idea why Atlanta isn’t signing him to a max contract. Players like him don’t happen very often. 22, defense, and offense? What’s the problem? Joe Knows All.

Oh btw, I live in DC… Kwame sucks. If he plays for us it’ll be at the end of the bench.

Didn’t Atlanta work out Kwame Brown? Didn’t he reportedly have a good work out?

Is he possibly part of a sign and trade for J. Smith?

if we traded all three we would be overpaying for smith, but 2 is completely do-able. Look at the min’s Mike suggested, take out amir…put josh in Tay’s spot and let kwame play more….i like it

I dont know what to expect now, but if ATL worked him out then maybe tay and kwame????

http://www.realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/53630/20080717/kwame_morris_work_out_for_hawks/

Kwame did work out for them…

Oh btw, I live in DC… Kwame sucks. If he plays for us it’ll be at the end of the bench.>>

Those are my sentiments exactly.

That would be sweet if we used him in a nice trade

I expect Amir to focus his energy on defense, which is why I think it’s fair to extrapolate his projected rebounds, blocks, and steals out that far. I would expect more turnovers, and a drop off in points.

Atlanta doesn’t need him they have Horford backed up by Przybilla. Przybilla is better than Brown

I thought Pryzbilla played for the Blazers?

The Hawks only have Zaza as a true center…they wanted Kwame as a back up C because Horford is better suited as PF.

Przybilla is with the Blazers. Maybe you meant Zaza Pachulia?

*as a PF.

My bad. You are correct.

I meant Pachulia.

I think that Brown would be an upgrade over Pachulia, but not much.

I don’t think Brown is good enough to start for anyone in the NBA. LOL

You have all had WAAAAYYY too much kool aid. This signing is a freaking joke. Kwame Brown is one of the worst players in the NBA. Anyone that thinks he is going to start is flat out insane and/or doesn’t watch basketball. A one year flier for like $2 mil is all Kwame is worth, but 2 years at $4 mil per? That’s nuts. What in his 8th year in the NBA, he’s all of a sudden going to figure it out??? Also anyone that thinks Sheed is now more expendable or that we’re going to package Kwame to send to some other team needs to watch some basketball. No one wants Kwame. He sucks and he shoots 40-45% on free throws to boot. Sheed on his craziest of crazy days is 10x the player Kwame is.

I’ve said it once and I’ll say it again. Joe D is a moron. A moron with a soft spot for reclamation projects. Will Bynum and Kwame Brown…yeah, THAT’S going to get us over the hump.

Doesn’t seem terrible to me. He was a useful player for the Lakers last year, and he wasn’t even a liability on offense. One of the biggest criticisms of his game is his awful hands, but he finished well last year off feeds from Kobe (59%). He’s also a fairly good passer and knows when to give up the ball, so he can easily pass out when he doesn’t have a wide-open shot. His hands prevent him from being a great rebounder, but the guy is a good post defender who has done well against Yao and Shaq (he did very well in one of those ridiculous Christmas matchups). He also moves his feet well enough to impede penetration.

The other thing he’d have in Detroit is vastly reduced expectations. In Washington, he could never live up to the expectations that come with being taken as the number 1 pick. Over in LA, people put pressure on him and taunted him because he was traded for Butler and didn’t justify his egregious salary. [As a sidenote, I know a lot of LA fans who really missed Kwame when the Lakers wilted like a dainty flower against Boston. It’s a weird thing to hear]. In Memphis, fans hated him because they wanted a bigger return for Gasol. Where’s the outrage going to come from in Detroit? “How dare he take a roster spot and a below average salary?” He’s become such a joke among NBA fans that there basically are no expectations for him.

At any rate, it’s pointless to prolong the inevitable. Watch yourself, Caron Butler, you’re going to be a Piston soon. Bring your buds Antawn and Gilbert if you want.

I can see this fascination with Josh Smith.

If I was building an ESPN highlight film team Smith would definitely be on it.

However, if I want to win a NBA title forget it.

He is an undersized PF whose rebounding is for a PF is mediocre at about 8.5 rebounds per 36 minutes.

He shoots less than 30% from more than 5 feet away from the basket.
He free throw shooting is terrible
He can’t handle the ball on the wing very good.
His defense is limited to an occasional spectacular blocked shot and steal.

It is really interesting how ESPN bite coverage can distort the reality of things.

But one never knows what Joe D. will do and Smith could wind up in a Pistons uniform. Only Joe D. knows until it happens. LOL

Kwame does provide the one thing that this team didn’t have before… SIZE. He’s huge and built like a brick sh*t house. If a big trade is made then he would be fine as a low minute starting 5 getting 15+ minutes a game to grab boards and dish out 6 hard fouls. If the big trade doesn’t happen then he’s an inexpensive fall back plan if Sheed was to get hurt. I know Arnie Kander makes magic kool-aid but our core is bound to get hurt at some point.

PS- We should hire Dale Davis as a “Kwame-consultant” and tell him to bring a jar of honey & a grizzly bear.

Cool! We just signed Darko Milicic’s backup. Ouch.

We don’t need a 5 big-man rotation. The whole Davis/Campbell position was when we were on a collision course to play Shaq, either with LA or Miami. We don’t need a Shaq specialist for our two games against the Suns. We also don’t need a Perkins or other big fat C specialist. I hate our starting front-court more than anyone, but Brown isn’t the solution. He’s not better than the four bigs we have, maybe not even better than Samb. He’s never played a full season. His best year he averaged 7.4 rebounds (30 minutes a game) – we already have guys that can do that. If he is our 5th big and he’ll steal minutes and actually play it’s not good. If he is our 5th big and won’t play much all – then why is the first move we made.

I’m with everyone else as far as if this is just a piece to couple with Prince to trade for J. Smith. But if were shipping Prince and Maxiel/Amir to ATL and keeping Kwame – that’s dangerous. J. Smith is an upgrade on Prince – but having Dyess, Rasheed as starters with possibly Kwame and Amir as the backups. Smith can match Prince’s defense – but that wouldn’t solve our rebounding and interior issues (Smith average less than 1 more board a game than Prince).

Prince for Butler would be interesting

Salary wise they match up pretty good.

With Agent Zero returning full time there is still only one basketball so Washington might be interested in replacing some offense with some defense.

I don’t know though that Dumars would do this. I don’t think that Butler’s game fits in with our first unit. He is a more up tempo guy and until the Zoo Crew replaces the core group as the starting unit I don’t see our starting five playing a more up temp game.

Though I will admit it is an interesting thought and could be argued both ways.

I’m pretty sure we can’t do a sign & trade with Kwame…you can only sign and trade your own free agents (some one like Herrmann).

I’m really interested in hearing Joe D’s comments on this signing and about the current log jam with our bigs.

Writing from DC, where Wizards fans are in their yearly debate: did Joe D do it again? Will he succeed where the Wiz have failed? Or will K. Brown be this year’s Jarvis Hayes?

CK, care to defend your “Joe D is a moron” claim? Did you say this in ’O4?

Juicebox -

Prince in 08 = 4.9rpg

Smith in 08 = 8.5rpg

8.5 still isn’t great for a PF, but my hope would be that he could be moved into the 3. Others have said his handle is weak. I can’t say – haven’t seen enough. If he can play the 3 – I’d take him in a heartbeat.

correction – 8.2 rpg

“Joe is a genius. Seriously. Does this not seem like a familiar scenario? Former high pick, underachieved and unable to stick with a team, comes to Detroit and finally lives up to potential.”

We need to go easy on the Joe “love”. That statement above applies to only Chauncey Billups (not Ben Wallace, Rasheed Wallace, Richard Hamilton, or Tayshaun Prince). Yes, that was a good signing. When Joe took over he did amazing things – the Grant Hill trade, Stackhouse trade. Heck, he traded Jud Buechler for Cliff Robinson. Since Rasheed? Not so much.

A first round pick for Carlos Arroyo, my least favorite move of all time. But since 04, all he has done is picked up random backups SF’s and the likes of Webber, Davis, Campbell. The 00, 01, 03, 04 and 06 drafts we came out with Carlos Delfino and Okur (who we then lost in free agency) as the only contributors to the team. But when he made crazy unexpected picks this year, everyone wrote it off as part of Joe’s genius. What? He’s been a horrible draft executive (Prince the only exception, and the pending group from 05 and 07). He hasn’t taken that many crazy risks, as everyone alludes to. The Grant Hill trade was one, but that was EIGHT years ago. He traded garbage for Rasheed. Hamilton was an established scorer. He signed Billups, yes, but it wasn’t a huge risk – we were looking at starting Chucky Atkins. Plus, Billups was putting up 12/5 in his pre-Piston days, mostly as a reserve. He wasn’t Kwame Brown. And this is Joe’s one example of a “magical prove-to-the-world signing.”

It’s Kwame Brown. Joe hasn’t done anything like this before. And he hasn’t done anything to justify confidence of the highest level. He took a bad team to a championship, but how long before we can start to criticize his decisions after winning that championship.

My Prince/Smith rebound comparison was for the playoffs. My mistake for not pointing that out.

I don’t want my Dumars criticism to come across as too harsh. I believe him to be one of the better execs in the NBA. But you can be a Pistons fan and still question the President, it’s not unpatriotic. He’s botched drafts and he’s sat on his hands for three years – I think we can be, at the least, a little skeptical without having to reminisce about the Billups signing and Hill trade.

Colin:

Smith is not a SF. This is one of the biggest misconceptions I have ever read about a basketball player.

SF is a PF. M. Williams started for Atlanta at the SF position

Smith could never player SF. He can’t shoot and he can’t handle the ball.

i would like to have josh in there especially with our three guards….absolutely dangerous

My initial reaction: “Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo – are you kidding me?!?”

My slightly subdued reaction: “I guess Joe must know what he’s doing and hopefully it works out, but this is still strange.”

Juicebox, I think you’re underestimating how hard it is to keep a team in contention. Especially when you don’t have one of the three best players in the game (it’s much easier to keep your team in contention when you have Kobe or Duncan). There’s so many tough decisions that need to be made (not signing Big Ben, not signing Okur, etc.)

Can you name me a better GM? Maybe Pritchard (who doesn’t have a title yet). Maybe RC Buford.

Can you name another team that legitimately competed for a title last season that has as many talented young players? And as few (I would say no) bad contracts?

Yes, he’s made some mistakes. But, can you name a bad player that he’s drafted or traded for that was on the roster last year?

“Quick Darshan
CK, care to defend your "Joe D is a moron" claim? Did you say this in ‘O4?”

JuiceBox pretty much hit all the nails on the head and did my defending for me, and for the record, I did say Joe D was a moron in ‘04 because that was the first season after he passed on Carmelo for an unproven young foreign dude that wasn’t even playing regular minutes on his Euro team. While I enjoyed the championship, I (along with pretty much everyone else) was also saying “Joe was a moron for drafting Darko.” He passed up the chance at a dynasty so we could draft the Euro flavor of the month. INMO, that was the beginning of the end for Joe. The Rasheed trade and potentially drafting Stuckey are the only good things he’s done in the last 5-6 years.

Mike,

I realize that J. Smoove plays PF for the Hawks. That was kind of my point – I don’t like the trade very much if he is our starting PF.

I guess I’m not convinced that he “can’t” play SF.

Reasons why not – Poor jumpshooting and ball handling skills.

Reasons why – I definitely think he has the lateral quickness to adequately defend the SF position. If he can play defense at the 3 then I’m not so concerned about his bricklaying tendencies.

Where is it written that a SF has to drive from the wing every time down the court? Scoreless Corliss was a pretty effective backup with half the quickness and no ability or desire to pass and a mediocre handle. Obviously, we need Smith to produce substantially more than Scoreless, so that would require him to learn what he is bad at – and stop doing it until he has improved substantially.

I feel like we have enough jumpshooters that in a starting line up of:

Billups
Hamilton
Smith
Sheed
Dyess

Smith doesn’t really have to iso on the wing. He can move off the ball, post, etc. I feel like we need that raw slasher to compliment our polished squad. He definitely wouldn’t fit the mold of the traditional SF but that might be a good thing. It’s no guarantee, but I think it merits consideration.

“Update: Laughton notes in the comments:

    Joe is a genius. Seriously. Does this not seem like a familiar scenario? Former high pick, underachieved and unable to stick with a team, comes to Detroit and finally lives up to potential.

And a former Wizard, to boot."

My foot. This dude is the second version of Darko Milicic: soft, looks like an idiot on the court, and has no skills.

I can see the fascination with Josh Smith.

If I wanted a terrific help defender with a long wingspan and fast hands, Smith would definitely be it.

If I want to win an NBA title, forget Mike.

He is an undersized PF who rebounded better than Sheed. LOL

He had a coach that designed plays for him to take jumpers instead of working on the inside. LOL
His free throw shooting is average for a big man.
His handles are improving every year.
He is an above average defender on the ball and can disrupt offenses with spectacular shotblocking and steals.

It is really interesting how taking a player’s production out of context can distort the reality of things.

But one never knows what Joe D. will do etc etc.

Just joking, man. I think you do bring up some valid criticisms. His handles aren’t developed enough to where he can take the ball inside consistently (which is what he should be doing on offense given his explosiveness). He’s good at drawing fouls, so it would help his overall game if he shot nearer to 80%. Prince is a better man to man defender, that’s not really in question, but Smith’s steals and blocks aren’t empty, and they’re not the only thing he brings on defense. He was also horribly misused. Woodson has taken time outs and designed plays for Smith to take jumpers. The execution wasn’t botched. The play was clearly for Smith. He is that stupid. Playing out of position hasn’t helped him. You said he is a PF, and he played there this year, but he’s played SF his entire career before that. Woodson tried to put on his best five players on the floor regardless of position, which explains Horford at center and Smith at PF. He’s not a traditional SF, but that’s his natural position.

Also, for those that haven’t realized how awesome Kwame is yet, he was Darko’s backup last season. That’s right. His backup.

DBB people first discussed signing a big C at length in this old thread.

http://www.detroitbadboys.com/archives/2008-07-02/detroits-looking-at-perimeter-players/

At the time I argued that bringing in a big C would pay dividends at the PF position because of some of the spacing and dynamics of actual game play. Phoenix rebounded much better as a team after getting Shaq even though Marion was a similar rebounder by the numbers. I think having two agile PFs split the 4/5 end up producing some negatives that aren’t so easy to explain with individual stats. So I don’t expect Kwame Brown to put up great numbers but I do expect the rebounding numbers for ’Sheed, ’Dyess & Maxiell to improve a bit because they will almost never fax a box out by the other teams biggest player if Kwame Brown is on the court.

I think Memphis realized they would lose more often if they gave Darko more minutes.

“fax a box out” = face a box out

Kwame Brown had one season where he was not a below average NBA player (2003-04). But we’re paying him a below-average wage, so this is not a bad signing. I agree with whoever said low risk/high reward.

For those saying Brown is a good defender: anyone else remember the Stuckey dunk against the Lakers where he dunked from the dotted line? That play was all because Kwame Brown completely blew the “show” part of pick and roll defense. Seriously, it was Stuckey’s first majorly “wow” play of his career, and it was because Kwame is clueless on team defense.

But whatever, we don’t need all of our backups to be above average players.

Let’s do a little comparison;
Desagana Diop vs. Kwame Brown (Career Averages, based on 36 mpg)

PPG: 5.2 / 11.3
TO: 1.5 / 2.2
BLK: 2.9 / 1.1
STL: 1.0 / .9
RBDS: 9.6 / 8.6
FT%: .517 / .597
FG%: .433 / .484
PF: 5.5 / 2.3

Kwame is 25 while Diop is 26. Neither guy has great hands or brings much to the table offensively, although Diop is much more raw. Both are very good defenders on and off the ball, both can defend traditional NBA centers, while Diop is better at blocking shots. Diop is a good athlete although Kwame is a little better.

Diop signed this summer for the full MLE, which is a 5 year deal for 35 million. We just got basically the same exact player for 2 years at 4 million per year. That’s good value.

Maybe we can trade him for Zaza Pachulia!

Zing

(Big grin)

Bye guys.

/Piston-card

QD-I’m with you that’s it hard to keep in contention, especially if you don’t make any changes after you lose. I’m also with you that he is one of the top 5-execs – no need to debate his placement in there. I just think that enough time has passed since the Hill trade, the Billups and Sheed signing, for us to be able to be a little more critical than people are willing to be. It started with the draft. Commentators think that we made huge mistakes – but one here everyone seemed to generally support just because “Joe did it.” But he’s had horrible draft results more times than not. Now people are trying to justify the acquisition of Kwame Brown in the name of Dumars’ genius. C’mon.

Other Matt: Actually, QD sold me originally as he noted in his comment. All credit to him. He sold me so hard in fact, that I actually called him to celebrate (read: I’m that much of a tool/that excited). I couldn’t be more thrilled. Here’s a side of this deal that I touched on in my call w/QD but have not seen on DBB yet:

Other Matt said in an earlier thread that you don’t beat mediocre with mediocre. Well, if this Kwame Brown is mediocre (fair characterization by me) than I couldn’t disagree more. We’re finally taking the onus off Sheed. That’s what Zaza was about. That’s what Kwame’s about. That’s the tipping point in my view. It’s not so much about Kwame’s stats as it is his body and his skills that “don’t show up in the stat sheet”. To me, this signing changes the way we do business as a team. It’s the same exact argument I was making for Zaza, but obviously I like this fit even better. Apparently, so does Joe. If Juicebox believed in acquiring Zaza (maybe you just wanted Josh Smith that bad?), I’m stunned he’s hating on this. Kwame (except the FTs and maybe barely on offense) is better (not by leaps and bounds mind you) than Zaza at damn near everything and it’s the same exact price (with an option for an extra year)!!!

Now we’ve got a guy who will make his money in the paint and weighs more than 250 pounds. It’s BEN a while since we’ve had that (Max excluded), yuk yuk.

Post-Ben, Sheed has been asked to be in the paint way more than he’s comfortable. I think that’s pretty obvious (maybe, it’s not obvious or true at all?) Not only will Kwame pacify such unrest, but I think (here’s my leap of faith) that this will make Sheed happier, more carefree and actually more productive (joejoejoe sort of alluded to this, I think). I expect this to be huge for Sheed. We will now have a lot of time next season where Sheed will clearly be the PF on the court. Count me on the Kwame as a starter C (25 min./game max) to Sheed’s PF, but I’m not going to complain if it doesn’t happen. During these times, Sheed will no longer draw ire from the collective DBB community EVERY time he drifts out to 20 feet or farther for a 3. Why? Because if we need it in the post, we won’t give it to Sheed; we’ll dump it into Kwame. If Sheed doesn’t want to play in the post, screw him, we just outsourced his job to India, and in this example, Kwame Brown is Indian (hey, Kwame IS cheaper labor, zing!). Now we’ve got ol’ fat ass Perkins’s number, and it’s whatever number is on the back of Kwame’s Pistons jersey.

Wow….this looks like a desparation move by joe…

Did someone just try to compare Kwame to Sheed?

This trade= FAIL

Please, kill me now. I can’t believe some of the comments I’m reading here. Have any of you that approve of this trade actually seen him play? He is TERRIBLE. He has no idea how to play basketball, at all!! A lot of free throws that he shoots, he airballs. A LOT of balls that he passes out of the paint end up in the stands. He is a nice kid, but he has no basketball IQ whatsover.. Seriously, Joe D, WTF?!?!?!

I’m completely dumbfounded… What happened to the development of Amir, or Cheick Samb for that reason? Unless he’s going to be included in a sign and trade… Then Joe D is a genius. But right now, as much faith as I have in Joe D, I don’t know what to think …

You want to know how bad Kwame is? Laker fans were cringing at the rumors of Kwame signing a small contract with LA.

I truly hope you guys keep up your hopes and somehow, some way, Kwame becomes the star that you envision.

Juicebox…

I can’t find the article, but it was done recently and it went through the last 25 or so drafts, looked at each player taken at each draft position, and came up with the ‘expected player’ based on where they were drafted. Joe D definitely had some misses earlier in his career with the draft with Darko, R. White, and Mateen (although that draft was terrible). However, look at all these picks out of the lottery; Stuckey, Prince, Max, Afflalo, Delfino, Amir, Okur, and even Samb and Sharpe…we can’t completely rate his draft record on these players since they are all still young and with room for growth, but it’s safe to say he’ll get very good value with those picks compared to the average person taken in their spots.

Juicebox

- I think it can be argued that the draft is Joe’s weak spot. I think horrible is a little strong. Well, Mateen Cleaves, Rodney White and Darko were terrible – but those are only three picks. Also, he got Okur in the second round of the same draft as White. The rest of his first rounders have been solid – Tay, Delfino, Maxiell, Stuckey, Afflalo. In some cases, we missed a superior player, but hindsight is 20-20. He’s taken a lot of crappy players in round 2, mostly because round 2 is filled with crappy players. He also got Amir and Okur in the second round. Not a great draft resume, but not terrible. He also got rid of mistakes (with the exception of Darko) fairly quickly.

Well, Jim already made my point for me…but I type slowly so …..

“I truly hope you guys keep up your hopes and somehow, some way, Kwame becomes the star that you envision.”

No one, absolutely no one, thinks Kwame will be a star in Detroit. He signed a cheap contract to fill a niche, that’s all. I think he can fill that niche — I suppose I overestimated the number of people who’d agree with me.

Don’t hate the guy because MJ whiffed by making him the first overall pick. He’s a big bruiser who knows how to play defense, and that’s what Detroit needs since their current starting center is averse to physical contact and/or staying in the paint.

I think some Pistons fans have lost perspective on what the average NBA roster looks like. It’s okay to have at least one guy on the floor who’s not a real threat to lead the team in scoring on any given night. If anything, it’ll keep guys like Tay and McDyess from being tentative.

Kwame was signed to be a role player. He’s only 26 years old and he’s playing for a new contract. You take chances on guys like that, especially when they’re so cheap and you don’t have to commit many years. It baffles me that some people are acting like his arrival is akin to throwing in the towel.

“I can’t believe I’ll be making a Kwame Brown Cartoon” – Natalie at Need4Sheed.

That is priceless. She has to make a Kwame cartoon. That’s the best part of this deal!

Seriously. We should trade for people just so Natalie has to make caricatures of them.
Big Baby Davis.
Sam Cassell.
Yao Ming.
Scot Pollard (why did all the ugly go to Boston?)
Adam Morrison.

So ugly.

Matt W -

Thanks for the added perspective. I don’t think anyone who is happy this deal was made expects Kwame to all-of-a-sudden be more than what he already is. And saying he’s terrible is unfairly selling him short… he still earned minutes over many other players in past seasons. This deal is cannot possibly hurt the Pistons… it is virtually risk free.

As for the “Dumars is a genius” debate. Give me a break, the guy is human, he has made some errors. Those weren’t errors that a lot of other GMs wouldn’t have made as well. He makes a lot of small really good moves that go unremembered… like moving the immovable Nazr. Saying “genius” is an overstatement, but he clearly THINKS about his decisions. And tries to correct them if they end up wrong.

Aaron N: If anything, moving Nazr’s contract was a mea culpa for signing it in the first place. If we could’ve gotten Nazr at this clip, I don’t think the experiment would’ve gone so awry. Kwame should at least bring what Nazr brings.

+1,000,000 Matt … One of the reasons Matt’s built DBB into what it is today, and that is he speaks with far more clarity, precision and general acuity than I ever will. If I had a blog, it would have way too many words on the page and the message would get lost. When that white text box shows up, you know it’s business time. Kudos, Matt. People act like we’re the ones who drafted this guy first overall. Um, Trenton Hassell will make more money this season than Kwame. Even if Kwame has absolutely no impact, using this signing as evidence toward a “Joe is incompetent” argument doesn’t seem useful to me.

+999,999 Rob G. That will be so rich. Maybe we’ll get lucky and Natalie will make a Kwame cartoon from his “cornrow era”. Maybe if we’re really lucky, we’ll get some “Kwame throws cake” illustrations.

Sorry, some guys aren’t Pistons material.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xm4Jrk2WN9g

Get rid of him. That’s an order, Joe.

/back to ‘bye’

Hey Rob G, ugly teams win championships. Its a proven fact. :)

LB-

regarding Nazr… yeah, that’s what i am saying. he’s not afraid to admit mistakes and correct them… and often turns them into positives.

I’m on the Kwame wagon… all the negative comments just make me want to root for him that much more.

yeah, i’m in qd’s corner on this one. i don’t know who you guys think would be a better gm to have. MAYBE buford. of course he’s had the luxury of the best power forward of all-time. pritchard certainly has a beautiful team on paper. i’m sure wins will come. in the meantime, we got a guy who puts 50 win teams together like 50 piece puzzles.

this is a 2 year deal for 8 million for a 25 year old former #1 pick. you’re right, kwame brown may never turn a corner. but even if he peeps around the corner, it’ll be worth the cash. at the very least, the demise of the pistons due to this deal is GREATLY F-ING exaggerated.

The Joe bashing is f-in’ ridiculous. At least wait until the season starts. I can think of many other execs around the league Bill Davidson coulda hired instead, no thank you. I don’t even know who said Joe won the title with a bad team, but that one made me laugh, the ‘04 squad was the antithesis of a bad team. Jeez. As for ’08 and 9, Kwame’s cheap and if anyone can squeeze something decent out of him, it’s Detroit. Dumars ain’t done either. Respect the Architect, I know you hearda that.

Sorry JD, this is what happens nightly with Kwame Brown.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ocgvUrh4yU

/back to ghost

Of course Kwame didn’t play ahead of Darko. Memphis didn’t trade for him because of his skills, they traded for him because of his contract. If they could’ve had Keith Van Horn sign a 13 mil contract and trade for him, they would have. They only wanted to get rid of Gasol’s contract. They’re committed to Darko right now, so why would they kill his confidence by benching him at the end of a crappy year to see if Kwame could play?

Also, it’s Memphis. They aren’t exactly the brightest bulbs in the bunch. (I’d say that they made a great move getting Mayo, but it was a deal with McHale, so it doesn’t count.)

By definition Joe Dumars has been in the top 13% of GMs for 6 years running simply by virtue of reaching the semi-finals in a 30 team league. If you add in the fact that Tim Duncan landing in San Antonio was a freak accident and two of the past 3 NBA champions (Boston, Miami) have been absolutely HORRID in close proximity to their success then you hve to say Joe Dumars is doing a pretty decent job. Add in the steady increase in Piston’s franchise value vs. the increasingly systemic troubles in the Michigan economy and I don’t think you can praise Dumars enough for the job he has done. He makes mistakes just like every human being but he’s not so stubborn that he doesn’t acknowledge them and then move forward. Hindsight says Bosh or Carmelo or Wade would have been better than Darko. The reality is Dumars flipped Darko for cap space and the pick that became Rodney Stuckey. Reality isn’t half bad.

A couple of things:

Just because Kwame is making less than Trenton Hassell doesn’t mean that he’s still not overpaid.

If Kwame starts and plays 20-25 minutes per night, I’m going to be seriously unhappy because it will take minutes away from guys (namely Amir) who’ve earned them in my eyes. We can all argue about Amir until we’re blue in the face, but it’s time for 15-20 minutes per night for him and for us to all find out what he can deliver us in that large a role over an entire season. If this gets in the way of that, then I’ll take it as a sign that Joe is giving up on Amir.

I still don’t understand this, and I don’t particularly like Kwame Brown. I don’t agree at all with where LB is coming from in terms of battling mediocre with mediocre. If Kwame turns out to be a good player for us, I’ll be pleasantly surprised. But I think this is way more likely to be Nazr redux.

The Joe bashing is way off point. I realize that there are a huge number of Piston fans who drink the kool-aid. But Joe D built a championship team based around guys who were largely afterthoughts. He drafted Stuckey. He drafted Prince. He drafted Maxiell. His gamble on Miggity paid off. He let Ben walk away when it was difficult to do so given his status as our heart and soul. He has hit WAY more than he’s missed, and he deserves the benefit of the doubt. That said, I’m confused. As I said before, I’m going to root for him because I basically root for the jersey.

Also, for those concerned that Kwame will take the youngsters minutes, he’s an insurance policy. He’s shown that he can play basketball at the professional level with some degree of success, surely not dominance, but he’s not a failure of a basketball player. Amir and Samb are developing players, not game-ready players. Having Kwame at a cheap price allows the youngins to continue developing at a comfortable pace without having too much pressure on them. That’s why the Pistons brought in Ratliff last year, because developing players just aren’t ready all the time, and you need to be able to count on a vet. Kwame can play the same role, stepping in when needed and helping to pace the progress of our young backups.

Judge Judys and Johns, this is a case about cake.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ln7Nm7uBUd0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APKVIuBDZcw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YvKwajwCqSg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9GtbR2LG6o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5-A8Ao47nU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlPGcJf9Ims

The Prosecution Rests.

/still gone

Enjoy this hot Kwame Brown mix from his glory days with the Lakers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8eMsEXPmX0

I can see Stuckey beating his guy off the dribble on the perimeter and the help cheating towards him a bit and then - dumb to Kwame underneath - dunk. Next play, Prince beats his guy off the dribble and the help doesn’t come and Prince takes it to the rack and dunks himself. It helps having big guys near the rim and even in the NBA Kwame Brown is a big guy.

“dumb to Kwame underneath” = dump to Kwame underneath

-1,000 to me for my typos, incorrect plural possessives (Piston’s…ugh), and general grammar suckiness. I’m the Joel Pachulia of grammar.

@Sauce:
I can’t believe I’m defending Kwame Brown, but I had to do it. After watching Maxiell miss far too many dunks this season, I looked at the stats: Kwame Brown 89% on the dunk, Maxiell 84%.

And now back to your scheduled Joe D. conflict. (boo on the haters, btw)

I respect all opinions on this site, whether I agree or not. As such I completely understand that not everyone thinks Joe D has done a good enough job. As a fan, I am eternally grateful that this team wants to win. Kwame will not have a negative impact on this team. He cost money, not players. If he sucks, Curry benches him like he said he would do to all players that didn’t perform. I don’t like how the NBA, the media and some fans think that a player won’t improve past 25 or that someone is a bust because they were picked early and been overpaid based on potential. Forget the past, embrace the now and hope for the future.

Mike Payne, and the crowd:

What’s the difference between Cheikh Samb, Nazr Mohammed, Dale Davis, Kelvin Kato, and Kwame Brown?

All of them are about the same level of talent, but only Kwame requires two lockers.

1 for him, and 1 for his shadow.

We turned Darko into a smokeable phallic symbol, and we ran a train on Nazr. Connect the dots, la-la-la-la-la.

/gorilla back into the mist

Sadly the ONLY nice thing I can say about this signing is this:

“At least we aren’t the Clippers”

Welcome to Ricky Davis time baby!

Hahahah… seriously though it took Ricky Davis to make me not want to cut myself repeatedly while chanting “I love Tom Brady, the Red Sox and even Eddie House” and burning my Joe Dumars rookie card…

Thank god for the Clippers

Players breaking out in their 8th year in the league is hardly unheard of. Take, for example, the reigning Most Improved Player, Hedo Turkoglu. An 8th year player last year, and he goes from average at best to great. Who’s to say Kwame can’t at least go from sub-par to above average? It’s hardly outside the realm of possibility. Hold the rampant Joe bashing until we see how the guy fits in the system. We don’t need Kwame Brown to play like a #1 pick or a stud. We need him to play like a guy below-MLE guy. That’s not too much to ask, it really isn’t.

Kwame Clown is an utter stiff but at least he’s big, young, and has a short-term contract. Low-risk, medium reward.

I really don’t know what kind of player people expect for $4M/yr.

26 year old Jason Kapono got $6M/yr and averaged 7.2 pts and 19 mpg for Toronto. 24 yr-old Sasha Vujacic got $5M/yr for averaging 8.8 pits in 17+ mpg. 26 yr-old DeSagana Diop got $5.6M/yr for 3pts and 5 rebounds in 16+ minutes a game. 26 yr-old Kwame Brown fills a need on the roster (size) at a reasonable price. There isn’t really anything about the deal not to like if you substitute the name Generic Big Man for Kwame Brown. He’s making as much as Lindsey Hunter and Walter Herrmann made combined last year and if I recall they both racked up a ton of DNP-CDs (if they even dressed) and nobody complained about their salary or contribution. I predict zero DNP-CDs for a healthy Kwame Brown. If you are 6’11" 270lbs in the NBA, you are not a rookie, and you dress every night, it’s going to cost about $4M per year, period.

Well this addition is according to Joe D persona of adding a former Wizard player to his roster every year.

So can we trade Kwame for Gasol now?

joejoejoe

I completely agree with you, but just want to say Kapono, Vujacic, and Diop were all overpaid.

Proof that Dumars uses common sense. A rarity.

In other news, Sixers signed Kareem Rush… and got a lot better from 3pt line.

Sauce77
“What’s the difference between Cheikh Samb, Nazr Mohammed, Dale Davis, Kelvin Kato, and Kwame Brown?

All of them are about the same level of talent"

I completely disagree. Oversimplifying.

All concerns about Kwame are valid. There are character issues and confidence issues. But, this year will be the hardest he will ever play. He has something to prove and he’s playing for his financial future. Hell, I remember Olowakandi being dominant in his contract year with the Clippers.

Worst case scenario is that Kwame sucks, Curry stops giving playing time, he exercises his option to come back and he’s gone in two years.

By then Sheed’s contract is off the books (wonder if they’ll extend him and for how much? will he accept the veteran’s minimum?). Dyess will be off the books as well.

The move slightly hampers financial flexibility next year but not beyond that.

I was tempted to post my knee jerk reactions yesterday, but decided to hold off. I don’t hate this move, but I definitely don’t understand it. $8 million for a fifth big man? If he couldn’t get minutes for Memphis, how is he going to get them for us? Are we waiting two more years for Samb? How can Brown break out and finally fulfill his potential playing behind Sheed, Dyess, Maxiell, while we’re also finding minutes for Amir? Wouldn’t C.J. Miles, a guy who would actually have a place in our rotation and has actual upside, make more sense for this money?

There aren’t a lot of seven footers out there who make less than this, especially if they’re former lottery picks, under 30, and not morbidly obese – so he is a good value in that sense. If we move one or two of our bigs, this deal will make a lot more sense to me. But as it is, I’m confused.

I don’t understand the minutes arguement agains Kwame.
He’s not playing the same role as Rasheed, Max, or Amir… and only slightly what McDyess did last season.

I think this is a good pickup by Joe. But I also think it leads to something else. Perhaps a Sheed for Okafor sign-n-trade? Or perhaps the beaten to death Tay for Smith?

I think Joes looks at Toronto (assuming O’Neal is healthy), obvioiusly Orlando & Dwight and to a certain extent Boston & KG. Throw in another EC team I’m forgetting and Kwame matches up much better than Theo with any of the above.

I’m not doing cartwheels over the deal, but considering what’s out there this is more than adequate. Now excuse me while I run out and buy my Kwame Brown jersey!!

Ok… You guys have convinced me.

If Kwame Brown breaks out and has a decent year (let’s say, 10 PPG / 6 RPG while keeping his fouls and turnovers low), and does NOT get into the way of giving Amir and Samb minutes… I’m going to officially declare Joe D a living, breathing divine being and embark on a holy journey to kiss the ground that he steps on.

Sounds pretty reasonable, no?

Chauncey 6’2"
Rip 6’7"
JSmith 6’9"
Sheed 6’11"
Kwame 6’11"

Bench: Stuck, Afflalo, Max, McDyess, Sharpe, Lindsey, Samb

We would have the deepest bench in the NBA, the deepest rotation in the NBA, IMO the best (or 2nd best, behind LA’s eventual lineup) frontcourt in the league… we already have the best back court in the league, Stuckey will be a 6th man contender…

$4 mil/season is a REDICULOUSLY low price for an athletic 7-footer in the NBA—

(’08-09 salary)

Diop $6 mil
Dampier $11.5 mil
Zaza $4 mil
Przybilla $5.8
Biedrins $10 mil
C. Wilcox $6.8 mil
N. Collison $6.2 mil
Donyell Marshall $6 mil
ROBERT SWIFT $4 mil
Juwan Howard $7.4 mil
Jason Collins $6.2 mil
Jerome James $6.2 mil

And on and on and on. The point is, 95% of players in the NBA at Kwame’s size are paid MUCH more than $4 mil/yr, and he’s at least as good as EVERY player on that list. We got a f*cking bargain. Seriously, Juwan Howard is still making over $7 mil? Robert Swift hasn’t even played anywhere close to a full season. And don’t even try to tell me we can’t get the same production from Kwame that Dallas gets from Dampier AT 1/3 THE PRICE.

Good move, Joe. Great move. Fixes spacing issues, fills a need, comes off the books for the 2010 sweepstakes… honestly, I think he’s gonna have a legitimate chance at Most Improved Player on the Pistons. We piss excellence in D-town. It’s going to rub off.

(that sounded gross at the end there)

Disregard my Okafor trade thought. I’m a bit behind this morning and didn’t see the signing.

Unless we are planning on trading sheed and then giving Maxi the starters place, i don’t see how this helps us. I don’t think much of kwame and i guess it’s because he wasn’t much of anything up till now.
All those stat lines and the whole zaza comparison doesn’t make me any more relaxed. The fact that there are laker fans who wanted to see him leave reminds me how much all Macabi fans wanted to see bynum leave.
Either JoeD is a very good manager or we’re headed into a very uneasy season with some very big question marks in a few positions.

The Lakers wanted to see him leave because all they saw was the loss of Caron Butler when Kwame played…. and Kwame was making a buttload of cash too.

Jim made a point that bears repeating, so I’ll just cut & paste his comment:

"

Let’s do a little comparison;
Desagana Diop vs. Kwame Brown (Career Averages, based on 36 mpg)

PPG: 5.2 / 11.3
TO: 1.5 / 2.2
BLK: 2.9 / 1.1
STL: 1.0 / .9
RBDS: 9.6 / 8.6
FT%: .517 / .597
FG%: .433 / .484
PF: 5.5 / 2.3

Kwame is 25 while Diop is 26. Neither guy has great hands or brings much to the table offensively, although Diop is much more raw. Both are very good defenders on and off the ball, both can defend traditional NBA centers, while Diop is better at blocking shots. Diop is a good athlete although Kwame is a little better.

Diop signed this summer for the full MLE, which is a 5 year deal for 35 million. We just got basically the same exact player for 2 years at 4 million per year. That’s good value."

We can all agree that Kwame Brown is a mediocre player, but we must remember he is a mediocre big, and the market vastly overpays such people. Compared to Diop, we got a very similar if not superior guy for far, far less money. I was very opposed to the move upon first hearing of it, but I’m becoming more convinced.

There’s some pretty interesting quotes from Billups relating to Sheed, Flip and Curry in todays article from Detnews…

http://detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080729/OPINION03/807290359/1004/SPORTS

I’ve been saying all summer that a shake up of the core needs to be made in order for us of win it all. However, the more I hear our players talk about Curry as a guy they respect and as a guy they know will sit them on the bench if 100% effort isn’t given…it has changed my point of view a bit. I still feel a shake up of the core is the best option (if the right value is there), but I’m not 100% convinced a major change has to be made now if we want to bring home the the title.

I didn’t like this trade when I went to bed last night.

When I woke up this morning I came to my senses and realized how bad this is.

This is the worst signing that Joe D. has ever made.

Brown is terrible.

He is not worth $400K yet along $4 million.

I saw enough of his play in Los Angeles to last 1,000 years.

He can’t shoot
He can’t shoot free throws.
He has terrible hands
He is a terrible rebounder for a #4 or #5 at about 8.5 per 36 minutes for his career.
He has a low basketball IQ and will make more mental mistakes on the floor in a game than the rest of team that he is playing with.
He is always injured.
His work ethic stinks
He is like the guy who trips on company property on purpose breaks an arm and then sues for $4 million

Kwame Brown stinks.

I could not think of a worse signing.

Brown in fact is so bad that he makes Nazr and Darko look like all-stars.

I guess signings like this are what happens when you sell out to an agent.

Maybe I’m a softy, but the McCosky article today with Billups really makes me want them to keep him…. and Rasheed. Those two guys blossomed in Detroit.

Not that I was happy with the thought of anyone going after years of watching them all play together, but it’s nice to hear how much Billups still wants to stay even after hearing all the rumors.

http://detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080729/OPINION03/807290359/1004/SPORTS

Joel, I’m sorry, but what exactly are you smoking, because I want some too? 2nd best front court in the NBA? Second WORST – maybe! How is any front court featuring Mr. Kwame Brown at C going to compete with a front court of Chris Bosh/Jermaine O’Neal, for starters?

And, are you seriously saying that Kwame is better than EVERY player on this list?

Chauncey 6′2″
Rip 6′7″
JSmith 6′9″
Sheed 6′11″
Kwame 6′11″

Bench: Stuck, Afflalo, Max, McDyess, Sharpe, Lindsey, Samb

We would have the deepest bench in the NBA, the deepest rotation in the NBA, IMO the best (or 2nd best, behind LA’s eventual lineup) frontcourt in the league… we already have the best back court in the league, Stuckey will be a 6th man contender…

$4 mil/season is a REDICULOUSLY low price for an athletic 7-footer in the NBA–

(’08-09 salary)

Diop $6 mil
Dampier $11.5 mil
Zaza $4 mil
Przybilla $5.8
Biedrins $10 mil
C. Wilcox $6.8 mil
N. Collison $6.2 mil
Donyell Marshall $6 mil
ROBERT SWIFT $4 mil
Juwan Howard $7.4 mil
Jason Collins $6.2 mil
Jerome James $6.2 mil

Let’s see.. I’d say the ONLY players who are just as terrible as him on that list are Jerome James, Chris Wilcox, and Robert Swift. Even Dampier, as much as I can’t stand him, is much better than Kwame. Biedrins, for example, is legitimately very good…

Kwame has better not take any minutes from Amir, or I’ll be pissed!

JSmith, Max, Sheed, Dyess, Kwame, Sharpe, Samb

Name one front court in the NBA with more depth, length, shot-blocking, varied scoring ability, defensive presence, etc.

Remember, our back court (including Stuck and AA off the bench), is going to average 60+ ppg. Our bigs just need to defend/block shots/rebound/finish inside. Don’t tell me we aren’t set to do that better than anybody in the league. And we still have a PF that shoots 3’s lights out. Can you imagine the block party that would be a Smith/Max/Rasheed lineup? Kwame is just icing on the cake— $4 mil for 20-24 min of legitimate C is a STEAL in the NBA. Like I said, he puts Sheed back at the 4 where he should be, lets McDyess go back to the bench where he should be, keeps Max as the sparkplug off the bench that he should be, and gives us a giant retarded body to through against other C’s/clog the paint.

It’s a good deal. You can’t deny it. From pure numbers alone (based on salary of other players his size), it’s a win-win. He can’t possibly be worse than he’s been. And we have the best bench coach in the league (Sheed) who just so happens to be a big man. He’s going to be great for us. Mark my words. Like 10 and 10 a night good. Remember I said it. Oh, and the shit I smoke is the dank of the dank. But I don’t share with haters.

Quote #1 from Matt
-——————————
I won’t be surprised to see Brown enter the starting lineup next year averaging 20-25 minutes a night, with Wallace, Antonio McDyess, Jason Maxiell

Quote #2 from Matt
-—————————-
Kwame was signed to be a role player.

Matt could you please explain how you envision our starting center to be a role player unless you mean 25 minutes of playing the role of a lousy basketball player which he is.

Lakers fan might come late and leave early but they are no dummies. They know what it takes to win a championship and Kwame Brown ain’t it. That is why the fans rode him out of Los Angeles on a rail after tar and feathering him.

hmm, I don’t know what to think.

I saw the guy dribble the ball off of his foot enough in Washington to know that he’s a bust…

He didn’t excel in Phil Jackson’s system, but most big men never do (don’t even mention Pau because Pau’s skills were crafted before PhilJax)

I don’t (as usual) agree with LB about how Kwame is this 6’11 “bruiser” who is/can be a defensive force in the paint. I don’t agree that we should “let Sheed dance around the 3 point line while we dump it in the paint to Kwame”.

Kwame is a back to the basket player, but only because he has to be. He has limited offensive ability.

Who else could we have gotten for $4m? Perhaps noone… but let’s hope that Kwame doesn’t take minutes from our other $4m per year project, Amir Johnson.

I’ll follow Matt Watson on this, if I have to. Kendrick Perkins will dominate Kwame so if he’s the kryptonite to Kendrick’s superman, good luck

Sorry guys,
ALL of your bigs are better than the Kwammy kakes. Good luck!

Thanks for the link Jim and AaronN. Definitely an interesting article, especially the part about how the Pistons are past the point where they need a great X’s and O’s guy. It seems like with veteran teams, it’s tough for a coach to earn respect, especially considering the short life span of most NBA coaches. Seems like Carslisle and Flip both had that problem, even though they are both better coaches than most of them out there. But it seems like a lot of times the players respect former players like Joe D. or Doc Rivers more than guys who are just coaches. George Karl is another guy who seems to have this problem.

Maybe Curry is the change we needed, that he’ll get more respect in the huddle and in the locker room than Flip did. Maybe he’ll light the fire under the vet’s asses when they go into that “We’ve been here before” bull.

Also on the Brown deal, the more I look around the league, the less sense it makes to me. I can’t even see any moves other than the longshot Smith move that say we actually NEED Brown. If we had traded Sheed for Richard Jefferson then brought in Brown, I’d be standing and applauding right now. But right now it’s hard for me to think of him as anything other than the Human Victory Cigar’s backup.

To me it seems like this move means Joe either doesn’t believe Amir is ready or that he has another move brewing.

Or I guess maybe he was just filling a need at center…

You know, after thinking about what I just said… I’d like to strike it from the record and do what I thought I never would do….

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8j9nsqv9m6M

agree with Stephen A. Smith. Let’s hope Kwame is nothing more than Nazr Mohammed

Guys, Kwame’s not taking minutes from Amir. Kwame is exclusively a center. Amir has played most of his minutes splitting the SF and PF positions. Here’s a crazy thought. This may sound weird for people who’ve grown accustomed to thinking of Amir as a PF, but I wonder if he would be more effective if he played more minutes as Prince’s backup. He was more effective at that position last year, getting more blocks and rebounds, and he allowed a very low FG%. We all think of him as a bigger player, but he has the speed and hops to defend there, and his relative scrawniness shouldn’t come into play. Yes, he’s grown, but he hasn’t lost much speed if any, and he’d be an incredibly hard player to score over. I think he’d have less of a propensity to foul from there, too. I know the coaching staff has been thinking about moving Afflalo and Rip to backup SF, but I wonder if Amir wouldn’t work better.

Otherwise, start Max and Sheed, move McDyess back to a sixth man role, let Sheed split time at PF and C, Kwame can take leftover C minutes, and Amir can split time from SF and whatever’s left of PF, primarily playing SF.

Note: I’m a little groggy, so this post might not be that well thought out.

Boney:

Thanks for the link

I also agree with Smith’s assessment of Brown.

If Brown gets anything other than garbage time it will hurt us badly.

The two biggest problems that Brown has that can’t be corrected.

1. He has small hands. No matter what you do he will always have small hands and when you are trying to play basketball having small hands is no small problem. He will never be a good rebounder, shooter or passer.

2. His basketball IQ is low. By now he would have gotten it if he was capable of getting it. Even if starts to give effort all it will be is more effort by a guy with a horrible basketball IQ. At 26 you can teach him how to play the game.

$8 million (2nd year at his option) brings his total career earnings up to $50 million. Probably one of the most if the most over paid guy to ever play in the NBA.

I think Kwame can be a decent low-post defender. Let’s face it, who do we have that can match up with O’Neal, Dwight (on a consistent basis), Duncan, Oden, K. Perkins (can’t beleive I added him to the list)?

Sure, Max can come in and play in a pinch against these guys, but all we’re asking of Kwame is to play some tough low-post D and rebound. If the guy wasn’t the #1 pick and had been drafted not in the lottery he’d be considered a decent pickup at the current rate. So he’s been a bust as a former #1 so therefore he’s not a decent pickup? The guy has been paid on potential for the last 7 years, perhaps having this 2 year / player option deal inspires him, and in NBA terms $4M is cheap.

In short, he sucks this year and Joe D. buys him out. In long, he excels over the next 12-24 months, feels some love towards the pistons and signs on or bails after we win a chip or two. If he ends up with a bunch of DNP-CD, he fills the same position as perhaps Plastaid would have. The difference being Plastaid is getting playing time in D-League or Europe. Same for Chiek Samb. Joe D has already said he sees big things from Amir this year, let’s just say Amir doesn’t fill it up this year, why not have an alternative. If Amir pulls it together, we’re back to the DNP-CD for Kwame. In the end, he’s only going to play if he’s producing, he’s a big body that plays adequate low-post D, he’s cheap and he’s got something to prove. I think the lead to this thred said it best, low-risk, medium reward. Given what’s out there, this ain’t as bad as people are painting it.

@Mike

Firstly, not every starter in the league is a superstar. Remember Michael Curry? He started, and was a role player. McDyess is a role player, Prince is a role player, everyone but LeBron on Cleveland is a role-player.

The title role-player does not indicate that you come off the bench, it means that you aren’t ‘the man’ on your team. You play a role, like defending, rebounding, shooting, or whatever, because it’s what your team needs and what you are good at.

Secondly, the small hands issue is irrelevant, because Ben Wallace has small hands – how many times did we cringe as he went for one-handed dunks and shanked them off the back of the rim? – and so does Shawn Marion, who also can’t palm a basketball. Steve Francis as well couldn’t palm a ball, (he couldn’t do the statue of liberty in the disgrace of a dunk contest that featured “the wheel”) and all three of those players were exceptional rebounders for their position during their prime years.

Mike-
“Matt could you please explain how you envision our starting center to be a role player”

Nearly every starting line-up has some sort effective role player or two. Prince is about the best role player in the league.

Shinons-
Pretty sure George Karl played. However, he might be a little disconnected from the younger generation. And a bit of a jerk sometimes.

Paul M –
i can see Amir playing some SF… hmmmmm. Or at least on offense staying low while Sheed lingers on the outside (facilitating) and Kwame/Max stay low.

Glenn:

I hear ya.

Bottom line is that he can’t play.

You will not find one person in Washington or Los Angeles who suffered through is intolerable play that will tell you that he is a bum.

That is the reality.

This is not about some under achiever whom the Piston organization can turn around. This is about a lousy player, drafted #1 or not.

Where was Darko drafted?

I hope I am proven wrong and Kwame becomes a player worthy of wearing a Pistons uniform.

corr:

My bad

I meant to say “not a bum”

Yes, 4mil may be too much to pay for what may end up as a 5th big man, but, hey, it’s not your money. And it doesn’t look like it’ll handcuff the franchise in the future (we may be out of the running for free agents next year but I can’t think of any good ones). So I think we can leave salary out of the discussion.

At the very least, Kwame provides the one thing the Pistons don’t have. As much as we love Maxiell, Amir, and the potential of Samb, it’s nice to at least have the option of a athletic, bruiser sitting on the bench so we can protect are young bigs from being snapped in two by the likes of Dwight Howard and Eddy Curry.

It took Memphis all of 15 games to realize that he Brown couldn’t even beat out Darko for playing time. LOL

Memphis of all teams. He couldn’t even stick with them.

You got more than a head case problem here.

You have got a lack of talent and basketball IQ.

@Paul M:
“Guys, Kwame’s not taking minutes from Amir. Kwame is exclusively a center.”

Thank you, Paul M, I was just on my way to write the same thing. The only way Kwame will take away minutes from Amir is if he forces Curry to give Sheed and Dyess more PT at the 4. There will not be a situation where Curry chooses Brown “over” Amir.

“but I wonder if he would be more effective if he played more minutes as Prince’s backup.”

There has actually been quite a bit of talk about that over the years here on DBB. I don’t know if I agree with it, but it has been suggested— especially in light of his early wing play.

re: Brown the Bust:

Arright everybody. Let’s all take our panties out, shake out the sand and take a step back from the ledge. Not trying to be a dick, I just think it might be healthy to take a different perspective on the Brown signing, if only for a moment.

Pretend that Kwame Brown wasn’t picked 1st, he was picked late in the first round. Pretend that Kwame Brown has never been overpaid. Pretend that teams like Washington and LA didn’t expect him to be the core of their frontcourt. Without all those misplaced expectations, he’d never, ever have been a bust.

Let’s look at what Kwame Brown SHOULD have been:

Let’s pretend that Kwame Brown has been a journeyman backup 5 who has regularly earned $2-5 mil/yr. He’s big, occupies the paint, is a serviceable rebounder, defender who has a moderate offensive game.

Now let’s look at the signing. Detroit just signed this BACKUP center who, again, is big, occupies the paint, is a serviceable rebounder and defender. $4 million per year. If we get 20 mpg on the top end out of this player, if we get 6 points, 6 rebounds and a block, I don’t think anyone would complain.

All this concern, all these “sky is falling” comments are predicated on Kwame’s history as one of the worst busts of the 21st century. Ignore all of that— because that would only matter if DET were hoping for him to be anything more than a backup… So if you take a different perspective, look at what he HAS done, its not a terrible signing for a backup 5.

Well said Mike P…

I get the argument that it’s not a bad signing, but I still don’t get why it’s a good one. What happens if Stuckey goes down or ends up fitting better at the two? Who’s going to be our back up point guard? What about this hole at back up three? If we’re spending this money on Kwame Brown, couldn’t we have just as easily spent it on C.J. Miles, who took a 4 year $15 million deal?

Tiny
Jul 29th, 2008 at 8:45 am

So can we trade Kwame for Gasol now?

Tiny wins this thread.

I can understand your thoughts on not understanding why it’s a good signing. It may not be. But it’s worth a gamble and it gives the roster more versatility.

As for C.J. Miles, who someone else also brought up…

Why advocate spending $15mil on a backup and balk at spending $8mil on one?

I’ve watched Utah play a couple times and never noticed CJ Miles. I just looked him up and he played a total of 20 minutes in the 6 game series against the Lakers. Plus, he’s the same height as Afflalo and is listed as a SF. Why would we have signed him?

Afflalo, Rip and Sharpe are capable of handling minutes at the 3. Hermann’s not out of the picture yet either.

*listed as a SG

Not sure I buy into the “Brown won’t take minutes from Amir because he’s a center” argument. In the past we had a 4 or 5 big man rotation. Sheed was the nominal center but aside from that we just had two bigs in the game. When Sheed picked up two quick fouls and Max came in – who was the center? McDyess? What about when Max and Amir played together?

There are 96 minutes at the 4 and 5 per game. Let’s say that Brown averages 15mpg, Sheed gets 30, McDyess gets 25, Maxiell gets 20. That’s 90 minutes. It doesn’t matter that Brown is a center. If he an sheed are the two main centers that leaves 48 minutes at the pf slots to allot to 3 players. Furthermore, several people have stated that Brown will allow Sheed to move over to PF (his natural position). So Imagine that Sheed spends 15 minutes at PF and 15 at C. 30 minutes at the C are taken by Sheed and Brown together. Let’s say that Maxiell and McDyess split the remaining 18 minutes at the center (9 apiece). Give Maxy another 11 at PF adn 16 to McDyess at PF. (15 for Sheed + 11 for Max + 16 for McDyess = 42). Six minutes left over for Amir.

In any scenario where Brown gets 15+ minutes the only spot left for Amir is SF. I’d love to be proven wrong but I don’t think Amir can defend the SF. Some mentioned seeing him play SF – maybe in the past, but I can’t remember him ever playing it this season and I watched close 70 games.

Guys, Kurt from Forum Blue and Gold (a little Lakers blog) here. I wish you guys all the luck in the world with Kwame. He brings a few useful skills to the floor — a good one-on-one post defender, a better pick-and-roll defender than he gets credit for, and he’s a passable rebounder.

The key for you, honestly, is in how you use him. If you ask him to only do the things he’s good at, you can be okay. The problem in Los Angeles (aside the astronomical salary) was that in the offense he was asked to do things he was not capable of. And, to be honest, that includes catching the ball and dunking it on an interior pass when the defense collapsed on a driving Kobe. The style of play in Detroit better fits his game (slower pace, he will not be asked to score) so this could work.

Do not think this is potentially another Rasheed or Wallace situation. One thing is different about those two guys compared to Kwame — they aree passionate about the game. They wanted to get better. Whether Jordan beat it out of him or he never had it, Kwame is a happy, fun, go lucky player but he is not someone who will do the work in the offseason, not someone driven to get better. He is what he is (his game actually regressed while in LA). If you can accept that, and use him in the right roles, he can serve a useful purpose. Just don’t expect more.

“Why advocate spending $15mil on a backup and balk at spending $8mil on one?”

I see one as having a much easier time cracking our rotation than the other. Brown is our fifth big man and, unless Afflalo is ready to take a big step forward and can handle the three, Sharpe can step right in, or we bring back Fabio (all big ifs), 0 back up small forwards. Also Brown is 26 and has had a ton of chances whereas Miles is 21 and hasn’t. Which one of the two has a better chance of being a quality starter in the league?

“I’ve watched Utah play a couple times and never noticed CJ Miles. I just looked him up and he played a total of 20 minutes in the 6 game series against the Lakers.”

After the Korver trade, Utah had 5 players in the exact same role – Korver, Miles, Almond, Brewer, and Harpring. All of them are two-three guys. They didn’t need Miles’ shooting (since they had Korver) as much as they needed Brewer’s athleticism, so they went that direction. Also Harpring got extra minutes to D up Kobe when AK sat.

I don’t care how big Kwame’s hands are or Shawn Marion or Ben Wallace or whomever else was on an all star team or at one point in their career proved to be dominant in at least 1 facet of NBA basketball.

What I do know is this:

Kwame is not a lane clogger.

Kwame will get booed in the Palace IF he bumbles 4 consecutive passes out of bounds like he did in Los Angeles in the middle of a nationally televised game.

Kwame doesn’t know what a mean streak is, unless that’s what you call getting pulled over for driving recklessly.

Kwame is more of a below average defender if you put him in a blind taste test with Desagana Diop. The reason Diop gets more fouls called on him is because he actually puts a body on his man.

Kwame is only a “center” because Lamar Odom was not a center in LA.

If Kwame comes in and gives us Theo Ratliff minutes when Dice and Sheed have foul trouble then so be it. I’ll take it…

I do see a bright side in all this “madness” though… Who is Michael Curry going to turn to in the playoffs as the 4th big man off the bench when only Amir has playoff experience.

“I see one as having a much easier time cracking our rotation than the other. Brown is our fifth big man and, unless Afflalo is ready to take a big step forward and can handle the three, Sharpe can step right in, or we bring back Fabio (all big ifs), 0 back up small forwards. Also Brown is 26 and has had a ton of chances whereas Miles is 21 and hasn’t. Which one of the two has a better chance of being a quality starter in the league?”

Shinons…don’t forget Rip played a decent amount of SF in the playoffs due to Stuckey’s emergence and he actually played it pretty well. Even if we don’t get Herrmann or another back up SF, we should be fine in my opinion by having Rip/Afflalo (maybe Sharpe too) play 15 minutes a night at back up SF. There’s 144 total minutes between the 1,2, and 3, so Rip, Tay, CB, and Stuckey can all play 30-32 minutes a night and Afflalo can get 15-20.

And since, as you said, Miles is a “2-3” you might as well just give Afflalo a shot at the back up SF.

I like this move. Kwame is a big body who can play D. A younger Theo Ratliff in my opinion. And I don’t think he takes minutes away from Max or Amir. Neither of those guys have proven that they can guard true centers like Howard or Ilgauskas. Brown hopefully can. Best case, he realizes some of his potential and gives us a Diop-like presence on D and on the glass. Worst case he sits on the bench for a year, earns $4 million and bounces. Doesn’t seem so bad. Joe D does it again.

Maybe Kwame had been suffering from undiagnosed narcolepsy for the last seven years.

Before every game, we need to strap him to a chair like in A CLOCKWORK ORANGE and make him watch the film from the game where he scored 30 pts. and got 19 rebounds.

BTW, just checked out your blog, Spottie. Good stuff.

“And since, as you said, Miles is a "2-3″ you might as well just give Afflalo a shot at the back up SF.”

“There’s 144 total minutes between the 1,2, and 3, so Rip, Tay, CB, and Stuckey can all play 30-32 minutes a night and Afflalo can get 15-20.”

I don’t see Afflalo ever becoming a legit starter unless he improves vastly on the offensive end. He makes a nice niche guy, but Miles seems to be as a guy ready to break out, someone who I could have seen taking over for Rip some time down the road. Can just write it off as a preference thing.

But the bigger thing here to me is that we now have 6 big men for two post spots and 5 perimeter guys to fill three spots. I know Joe likes to accumulate big men, but that’s pretty lean.

This is a good deal, Joe did well, I don’t understand what people are bitching about?… Kwame brown is the 2-3rd best player in the NBA at his position, that being Backup Center. We got him at or around the going rate of an average backup center.. so we came out on top.

If the presence of Kwame Brown were all it takes to stunt the development of Amir Johnson than I would not recommend having too much faith in Amir..

@Spottie:
“And I don’t think he takes minutes away from Max or Amir. Neither of those guys have proven that they can guard true centers like Howard or Ilgauskas.”

Maxiell actually did a brilliant job D-ing up Howard.

@QD:
“Before every game, we need to strap him to a chair like in A CLOCKWORK ORANGE and make him watch the film from the game where he scored 30 pts. and got 19 rebounds.”

Maybe that and some Ludwig Van will be all we need to inspire Kwame into a little Ultraviolence. :)

Per Dave:

“If the presence of Kwame Brown were all it takes to stunt the development of Amir Johnson than I would not recommend having too much faith in Amir…”

+1000000 for Dave

If Kwame is filling the role of our 5th center, it isn’t the amount of money that is of issue it’s the obsoleteness of that position and the priority of it for this team. First, unless it’s a blow-out or we are in drastic foul trouble, during the season we’ll only use 4-bigs. We’ll be on a 9-man rotation maybe 10. Sure, we don’t know what Curry will do yet, but no team uses a 12-man rotation. Everyone keeps on mentioning that we need a “big body” to guard other team’s C. No, we don’t. Garnett is not a “big body.” Howard is, but that’s not his game. He doesn’t play like Shaq. He scores using his quickness and athleticism. He’d blow by Kwame. We don’t need somebody to guard Perkins – we just need someone to not leave him alone under the basket. That role isn’t what we need like we use to years prior. In the playoffs, having a 5th big is a good idea because of foul problems and experience – Kwame Brown would not fill that role because he lacks beneficial post-season experience and Ratliff would be the superior way to go at any rate.

If he starts, people are claiming that would be good because Rasheed would be able to play out further from the basket more often without it mattering. That’s ridiculous. Rasheed is the team’s best rebounder, on-the-ball defender, on-the-ball shot blocker, highest IQ post-defender, and excluding Kwame Brown is the biggest in terms of both weight and height being considered. I realize McDyess averaged more rebounds during the season. But Rasheed, without debate, is the “best and most talented” in all the facets I listed above. Even at 34. The problem is that he doesn’t play to his strengths any more. Yes, he is a great three-point shooter, but that doesn’t matter. We could get a guy like Kapano or Korver or any other 38+% 3-point shooter to spread the floor. Rasheed needs to play around the basket. That’s what he is elite at. Lots of guys shoots a decent 3-point %. Sticking Kwame Brown in there wouldn’t be any better than what McDyess does. If Rasheed played by the rim on defense, had 15 shots a game, 10 in the post, 5 from outside, even at 34, this team would have been infinitely better in the post-season. How is putting Kwame in for McDyess make us a better rebounding team? We need both front court players to be committed to interior defense and rebounding – not just a scrub C. The Celtic can do that because they have Kevin Garnett, who takes care of the inside. Not to say he shouldn’t ever spread the defense with his 3’s, but he’s not really "spreading the defense" when teams are adjusted for him playing at the top of the key on offense. I’m fine our C being a role player – but on a team or role players without a star – Kwame Brown couldn’t play the role of interior defense for two people.

If he’s going to serve as as the backup C then Amir won’t play. If the minutes were spread over 5-bigs, Amir would only be in the 5-8 region tops which remains insufficient for him to really have a chance to develop.

So either our first move of the post-season was for a guy that will hardly play, which is more or less doing nothing at all. Or it’s a move in hopes of Brown having this breakout season, which could happen, but at the cost of a player already on the roster, who is younger, and has already produced more statistical evidence of potential in a fraction of the opportunity. I think it’s impossible to watch all the video posted on here, most of which is hilarious, and then try to defend either one of those actions.

LB-I only supported Zaza as an attachment with J. Smith. When you suffered the ridiculous Zaza lashback, I wrote that I supported it because you made it clear that is was only an additional piece to the trade. I’m in support of playing the young players before making trades that keep them bench ridden. You weren’t talking "let’s go get Zaza" you were saying "here’s another guy that could help and could be attached." For the record though, Zaza shoots better, scores more, blocks just as well, and has had three seasons, I believe, of having more rpg than Brown’s best season (which was four years ago). Zaza is statistically a better player. He is younger. He’s just a big. He’s hasn’t been injured as much. His baggage of being an European is much lighter than Brown’s baggage. So, everyone that hated the Zaza idea – but is on board for Kwame – that doesn’t make any sense. I don’t even want to hear someone say "Kwame does things that don’t show-up on the stat sheet." I’ll shoot myself.

I know the Dumars debate got dropped, which is for the best. But I want to reiterate that I never said he was bad. I put him in the top-5 execs. I don’t want him replaced. I don’t think he’s doing a bad job. I don’t underestimate the difficulty without a star (however lots of teams have stars and suck, so that’s not really true). But this is a bad move, he had what appears to be another bad draft. I don’t care if the recent drafts look good (05/07), the players of those drafts fight for minutes off the bench and no one feels that they play nearly enough. The picks of recent years have all been low picks that have no chance to make the team or guys that fill roles on the bench. He botched the picks in his early years when the team was garnering lottery picks. Anyway, I just want to make clear I’m not anti-Joe, never said I was. I’m very anti writing off every move, that appears stupid, in the name of it being made by Joe Dumars, and thus we must trust it. No, we don’t. I’m against being complacent after three years of the same accomplishment. I’m against not trading players because you value them more than every other team in the league (that should tell him something.) I also think that giving Joe Dumars credit for 6 stragitht ECF’s is moronic. He’s personnel, and the personnel that has gotten us there hasn’t really changed in the last four/five years, at least not in ways that matter much as far as accomplishing those goals. The players have done that. That’s their accomplishment. Not Joe Dumars’.

"Kwame does things that don’t show-up on the stat sheet."

Yeah… too bad there’s not a column for destroyed birthday cakes per 48 minutes.

He’d lead the league in PER then!

“$4 mil/season is a REDICULOUSLY low price for an athletic 7-footer in the NBA–”

True…. now if Kwame Brown would develop some athleticism, an 8 foot jump shot, something resembling back to the basket moves, a right foot to replace his second left foot, some passion and hell lets be honest, some testicular fortitude… it’d be a steal.

Unfortunately, this is 4 Million dollars for Kwame Brown. Let’s review thanks to another helpful DBB reader:

I saw enough of his play in Los Angeles to last 1,000 years.

He can’t shoot
He can’t shoot free throws.
He has terrible hands
He is a terrible rebounder for a #4 or #5 at about 8.5 per 36 minutes for his career.
He has a low basketball IQ and will make more mental mistakes on the floor in a game than the rest of team that he is playing with.
He is always injured.
His work ethic stinks
He is like the guy who trips on company property on purpose breaks an arm and then sues for $4 million

Kwame Brown stinks.

I could not think of a worse signing.

No really, that just about says it all doesn’t it?

You guys aren’t just DRINKING the Kool-Aide… you’re slurping it down with a second helping of “I really really wish” and throwing back a glass of “crazy talk” and a slice of “Jesus Boston stole my brain” for dessert.

Thankfully I have to get back to work, sparing me any more “wisdom” on how signing Kwame Brown is a good idea. Jesus guys, Zaza Pachulia, Kwame Brown? Can it REALLY be long before Greg Ostertag is guarding the painted area at the Palace?

Shudders

"Kwame does things that don’t show-up on the stat sheet."

So does this other guy on our team… god what’s his name…

some say he cures cancer… others say that he can walk on water…

I’ll let you know when I can think of his name

JuiceBox:

Kwame does things that don’t show-up on the stat sheet.

in all seriousness, we have just as many wing as we do post players.

And you are predicting what next season will be like regarding minutes and production. We don’t know what several of these guys will provide come November. Not sure how you can say this draft is already unsuccessful.

Also, Juicebox….

I refuse to read more than one “Page Scroll” worth of post. I mean, really, if I hit “Page down” and there’s STILL a whole page worth of post left, you’re being too wordy. Seriously you’re OBVIOUSLY a very smart guy, so maybe you could use some of that vast intelligence (not KIDDING, don’t let my rep fool you, not everything I say is sarcastic) to find a way to say “I think Joe Dumars is a genius” in say……..less than 5000 words?

Kthanx.

Regarding minutes… anyone consider that Rasheed might drop to 25 mpg during the regular season to free up time for Amir/Max?

If McDyess gets around 20….
That’s 50 minutes to split amongst Max/Amir/Kwame… and Kwame is only going to see big minutes against giant centers. I was just as concerned about splitting PF minutes before Kwame arrived.

First it was Zaza Pryzbilla, then Kwame the Piston savior/antichrist, and now PG4L is complaining about somebody else’s post length???? DBB has been turned upside down the past few days.

JesseC,

At least Kwame Brown didn’t go to Duke.

Then her posts would be REALLY long!

Meanwhile, Okafor signs with Charlotte, Kareem Rush signs with Philly.

I’ve missed PG4L over the past months but that was a good dig by Boney.

Before we all judge this move, let’s see if the was a prelude to something else. As for minutes and Amir/Max, how can it be bad to have someone beat someone else out for playing minutes under Curry? At the NBA level, you produce or you sit and I think Curry knows what he has and will go from there. I agree that if Kwame is consistently getting minutes before Amir, the Amir experiment needs to be either cancelled or re-calibrated in terms of what we should expect.

Juicebox; Dwight’s entire game is a power game. Sure he can spin or what not, but he’s not beating anyone off the dribble while facing the basket. And that/those spin type moves are entirely predicated on getting low box position.

As for the looming battle of Perkins vs (fill in the blank), if memory serves me, most of his points and Dalembert’s in the previous series was due to our guards getting beat off the dribble and one of the bigs sliding over to help. Perkins points/rebounds and the latter part of the season with Big Baby Davis were a direct result drive & dish or defensive rebounding position having been adjusted due to helping out. It doesn’t matter if we sign Hakeen Olejawan (sp), if we get beat off the dribble, we’re screwed. Why do you think Camby leads the NBA in blocks?

Juicebox: Per 48, Kwame absolutely waxes Pachulia on the boards. We didn’t trade Rasheed or Tay away to add Kwame, the “Pachulian” piece of any Smith trade. +1 Joe D. And Garnett does not play C. The Celtics starting C is a guy named Kendrick Perkins. He will forever have a ring as a “starting center”. Yet, some people still want to believe that there is no way Kwame starts? It’s certainly not inevitable, but it’s very much in the realm of possibility.

Gogol: Chauncey broke out in his 6th year, 26 years old. That’s only 2 seasons less than, but the same age as where Kwame’s at right now. You might want to consider that it is quite possible that Kwame Brown plays the most statistically efficient year of his career next season. Of course, a trip to Spottie’s blog would’ve told you that. Spottie’s blog also would’ve told you that I should give deeper consideration to attending the Rock The Bells tour when it comes to Los Angeles. Maybe I will. Maybe QD will come with.

Mike: Lakers fans (besides Kurt, +1 to Kurt) are dumb. I’d know, living in LA. They continue to act like the guy who drove Shaq away did nothing wrong because he’s the MVP. We know who has more titles since their break-up. -1 Lakers fans, who still want to believe Chris Wallace isn’t the biggest reason they made the Finals this year. Kobe (until this year) has been cancerous for the development of young players (including Kwame). Once a guy is broken down, it takes a lot to build him back up. Ask Chauncey.

We provide the environment, I like Kwame’s chances. Kwame’s never been on a winner before. In fact, he’s never finished the season on a team that won more than 45 games or that’s one with a single win in the conference semis. Finishing on a 45-37 team twice in your career is nice and all, but the last time we finished with under 50 wins or without a win in conference semis, was the ‘00-’01 season. And oh yeah, Kwame’s playoff record is 8-14. Our playoff record over that same span: 35-24. I like the possibilities for Kwame to produce here.

+1 to joejoejoe, Paul M, Joel, Dave

-1 to anyone still clenching their fist over this and worried about minutes being doled out wisely.

yeah, i mentioned that Kareem Rush signing earlier…
Pretty good pick-up for the Sixers (in terms of need).

Wonder if they’ll offer Louis Williams more dough?

*45 games or with a single win in the conference semis

Once again, I’m with JuiceBox. Here’s a couple of things he left out though:

1) Everyone has forgotten about Philly and Elton Brand. They are going to be good next year. Very good. Add him to the list of big the Pistons have to worry about.

2) Please stop talking about including Kwame in a sign and trade. He can’t be traded until December 15th (or somewhere around then), so any trade of Kwame will have to happen during the season.

3) Someone mentioned Turkoglu “breaking out in his 8th season.” Prior to his “breakout” this season, he averaged about 14 pts, 4 reb, 3 ast a game. The breakout? 19pts 6reb, 5ast, but he also saw his minutes go from about 30 to 37 min per game, so the breakout should have been somewhat expected. Good NBA players don’t appear out of thin air after 8 seasons in the league. They’ve been there all along and just needed some PT. Kwame’s been there all along, had some PT, and has regressed his entire career. If he turns it around, it will be a miracle.

4) I think the reason lots of people (myself included) are upset with JoeD/Pistons is that JoeD got up on his podium after the season and promised “big changes.” So far here’s what he’s done:

-Replaced yet another successful coach with a guy that has never coached an NBA game.
—Passed on several players that could have helped this season, to take a flier on a kid that has played 18 games in 3 seasons and has narcolepsy.
—Signed Will Bynum to be our 3rd/4th PG on the roster (IIRC, Lindsey Hunter is still coming back next season, correct?).
—Signed Kwame Brown - a guy that everyone in the NBA agrees is a failure of a basketball player regardless of whether he was drafted 1st overall or with the last pick of the draft — to be our 5th big man.

Given all of that, it should be no surprise that the natives are restless. It would be one thing if he hadn’t promised changes, and this was just a normal offseason. But when you get up and claim to the masses that you are going to shake things up and then proceed to do what amounts to nothing, people have every right to be upset.

Aaron N.: Good question. I love me some Lou Williams. Boy does that guy run a fantastic point in my eyes. I also think it’s a bummer that the Brandon-Kareem Rush same team fantasy will have to wait at least a few more years. +10,000 Ed Stefanski. He’s doing a real good job in my view. I’ve got to believe that Kareem Rush is better than Rodney Carney any day of the week, and Mareese Speights looks really good, if summer league means anything.

Here are some Josh Smith numbers from last year

Here are Smith’s shooting stats from last year

From under the basket
-——————————
FGA 646
FGM 351
FG% 59%

From every place on the court except under the basket
-——————————————————————————————————-
FGA 485
FGM 137
FG % 28% (Pretty horrible. No way he can play SF)

Total
-————
FGA 1,131 (2 shot discrepancy with BasketballReference.com)
FGM 518
FG% 46%

Free Throws
-—————-
FTA 469
FTM 333
FT % 71%

Rebounding Rates 2007-08 Smith 13.5%, Maxiell 14.6%, McDyess 17.4%, Johnson 18.4%.

So what do we see. Josh Smith can’t shoot so he can’t play SF and he he can’t rebound very well for a PF.

We may still trade for him, but in my opinion it would be a big mistake. I would rather have Maxiell than Smith and Amir for sure rather than Smith especially when you take defensive stats into account.

Smith is way over rated because he is a great ESPN highlight film but the numbers do not support him being a any more than a mediocre rebounding PF.

http://www.nba.com/hotspots/

http://www.basketball-reference.com/…smithjo03.html

Count me in the “glass half full” camp regarding Kwame.

Cannot see any reasonable argument against this signing. Doesn’t make our roster any worse. Short contract. Reasonable cost. No real expectations. And if Kwame is motivated (or taught) to be better than his past seasons it is a fat bonus.

Maxiell by comparison

Under the basket
-———————
FGA 250
FGM 157
FG% 63%

From every place else except under the basket
-—————————————————————-
FGA 195
FGM 83
FG% 43%

Totals
-————
FGA 445
FGM 240
FG% 54%

So what we see is that Maxiell is not only a better rebounder than Smith but he is a better shooter from everywhere on the court!!!

Why pay $10 million plus a year for Smith when we have Maxiell who makes a $2 or million a year and is a better shooter and better rebounder. I would call their defense about equal.

http://www.nba.com/hotspots/

I wish Kwame well, and hopefully he thrives under you guys….nicest guy in the world,but unless he learns how to catch the damn ball, I don’t envy the scorn he’ll start receiving from you guys. I wouldn’t start him EVER, but he’s a nice situational defender. He’s rebounding isn’t great, and his help defense is terrible, but if you need a guy that needs to body up against a bruiser, Kwame’s your man. But really, if you’ve seen his TO #‘s, and realize that because he’s not the greatest catcher the number’s are actually a bit low due to passers always being credited with the TO….Maybe Detroit’s the place for him, but I won’t be holding my breath.

@ Quick Darshan

Thanks for the props. Stop by any time.

@ Mike Payne

I agree that Max did a good job on Dwight Howard. But it was mostly because Howard has basically no post skills and couldn’t use his huge advantage in height to score over the top of Max. No one loves Maxiell more than I do, but the man is a power forward, and an undersized one at that. I think it’s unreasonable to expect him to guard 7-footers. Even Dice struggles with it at times.

After watching summer league, I think Amir is still a year away from being in the rotation at best. I’m beginning to wonder if he wouldn’t be better off on another team where he might actually get to play. After all, that’s the only way to improve. Joe D has traded players away for their own good before, I wouldn’t be surprised if he was considering it now.

CK: And why do we need big changes? In my view (which has its share of agreement and disagreement), our biggest weakness in the Boston series (size) just got addressed. I for one, never thought we really needed “big” changes. I imagine plenty of DBBers did. In any event, if all Joe did was bluster at the presser, it’s not as if he didn’t do the same thing last off-season. He did. Big whoop, who cares? Kwame Brown won’t take minutes away from anyone who deserves them more than he does. What he will do, if we don’t sandbag him like we did Nazr, is be a big body that plays more than 10 minutes per game, every night. We have not had that in a player for a while.

Mike: Smith averages about 233% more blocks/game than Maxiell does in only about 65% more playing time. I’m not trying to argue one way or another, I’m just saying I think that’s an extremely important detail to be leaving out. Also, Smith gets a lot more assists, but many more TOs as well (though the ratio is still + for Smith and – for Max). Smith’s a way better FT shooter (and also gets there slightly more per 48 mins. than Max). I’m not trying to disagree (or agree, for that matter) with you, I just think these are things that deserve to be noted.

Colin: I instinctively thought the same thing about Amir at SF, but according to 82games positional data (which isn’t perfect, but it does tend to capture who he generally matches up with), he played 8% of the team’s minutes there and 10% of the team’s minutes at PF. What gives me optimism for him as a backup there is that his rebounding, block numbers, turnover rates, and fouling rates were all better at SF than PF, and the SFs that matched up against him had awful shooting numbers and overall had poor production.

It’s not a great sample size, but to some extent those numbers make sense to me. It seems logical for him to generally murder a SF counterpart on the boards. Defensively, it would probably be hard for an SF to shoot on him without getting swatted or getting off a poor shot because of a length disadvantage, although he still does foul a lot. Subjectively, he seems fast enough to keep up with most SFs (we were grooming him as a SF at first anyhow. The speed is still there). It’s probably not a long term solution, but he was more effective there than at PF last year.

I like Amir. I like Max. I like Samb. But if Kwame plays better than them, he deserves more minutes and I won’t shed a tear for any of them. IMO Max’s spot is set, he will get all the minutes he wants next year fo sho.

As for Amir, it’s an interesting question. Why do we all want Amir to play so badly? Because we think he has great potential that can be tapped. We all think he could be a superstar if given the chance. Guess what, many people said the exact same thing about Kwame, who is even bigger and stronger. If Kwame plays well enough to force Amir to the bench, that means he’s finally getting something out of his immense talent. How could that be bad for the Pistons?

I believe Curry is going to play the guys that deserve it, not the guys with the biggest names or fattest contracts. I believe that because of his own backstory, the way he got into the league that the attitude he has always displayed. So whoever he chooses to play, I’m willing to accept that those are the people that deserve to play. This was not the case with Flip “I’ll just play the starters because then if they lose I won’t get blamed” Saunders.

@ LawyerBoy: Rock the Bells was amazing. I highly recommend you try and see it unless you are missing a limb that day and require reattachment procedures.

“I think the reason lots of people (myself included) are upset with JoeD/Pistons is that JoeD got up on his podium after the season and promised "big changes."

CK…Joe D never promised to make any changes. (Check the chat transcript if you don’t believe me). He said he would explore every opportunity to improve the team, but he also specifically said that he wouldn’t make a trade just to make a trade. The trade deadline isn’t until February 2009…there is a lot of time for things to happen. I’ve been saying that I think better trade opportunities will present themselves a couple months into the season.

LB-
Zaza last season: 4rebs/15mins
Kwame last season: 5rebs/19 mins

Zaza’s best season: 8rebs/32mins
Kwame’s best season: 7.5rebs/30mins

I don’t want to come across as the guy that loves Zaza. But there equivalent rebounders. Zaza holds the stat and intangible lead (age, size-that everyone touts). The fact that everyone hated you mentioning Zaza, but is warming up to Kwame proves that Joe D could put anyone out there and the fans would embrace it. I want us to go get Ostertag out of retirement, as someone sarcastically mentioned, just to see everyone support it because Joe Dumars did it. We should just bring in Mahorn – he’s big. That’s all that matters.

By the way, I know Garnett doesn’t play center. I was responding to people justifying Brown by explaining that we need a big guy to match up with the likes of Garnett, Howard, etc, a bunch of guys that Brown could never guard.

No matter how much Brown plays it’s not justified with the other guys on the roster.

-1 to LB for criticizing people worried about minutes. Dude, I know Flip isn’t the coach anymore, but after 3 years of watching minutes get yanked around for seemingly no reason, it’s perfectly acceptable to be worried about where his minutes are going to come from. Especially when last year’s stats show Kwame is basically a tubbier Theo Ratliff. The same Theo Ratliff who took nearly all of Amir’s minutes and frustrated the hell out of the people who watched this team’s every game. I understand the need for a big guy who can occupy space. I don’t understand the need for that particular guy to be Kwame Brown. I like this deal a whole lot more if he’s racking up DNP-CDs than if he’s playing 20 minutes a night. That’s mostly because I don’t think he gives us a whole lot more than the Rattler did, at a significant increase in price. Plus, I’m driving the fricking Amir bandwagon, and this is made the ride a little bumpier.

Jeeze, how many posts if we actually make a trade? You guys keep me entertained while I work, but debating about our 11th man and Amir’s minutes has got to be the most over posted thing on this site. I completely agree with Dave’s post that if Amir can’t earn minutes, then maybe he isn’t that good. Kwame fills a need on the team at a good price. I’m guessing that after his summer league performance, Joe feels good about AA at 2-3 and Sharpe at the 3. And Amir isn’t a center. Mike, comparing J. Smith to Max is the most homer thing I’ve read in a long time. Not. Even. Close.

I think Amir could handle the SF role and that would actually solve a lot of our playing time and giving people chances to develop issues. He’ll face his share of match-up issues but he would improve on the play of guys like Hayes and the SG from Orlando whose name I can’t think of right now that we had last year. I don’t think he’d foul as much, as I believe the majority of his fouls were inside plays. If we only had 3 bigs and added Brown, that’s an entirely different thing to me, and moving Amir down to SF would make that so. But I’m kind of a sucker for Hermann’s game and his intensity, but that’d be easier to get over.

Joe D. may not have said “I promise” but in his new conference he did all but say that. He said “…I left that game and I was like ‘OK, I’ve seen enough. I’ve seen enough, man.” It leaves some room for interpretation, but I got the vibe from his tone and intensity at the press conference that he was set on making changes. I don’t want him to – I like our young players – but he did leave that impression.

Spottie,

The Amir thing is kind of hard to explain. It’s been going on around here for 3 years or so now. I love his potential. I think he brings things to the table that nobody else on the roster does. When I look at him, I see Ben Wallace lite. I watched probably 75 of our 82 regular season games and every playoff game. I think Amir definitely earned himself a spot in the rotation. When his minutes went to Ratliff I was seriously pissed off because he’d done nothing to earn a trip back to the bench. His statistical splits are incredible. There are a huge number of statistical measures that say he was one of the most efficient players in the entire league last year (check the archives here and over at Fanhouse). I understand that it was a small sample size, but that sample size was accumulated playing in actual NBA games.

I saw the performance with my eyes. I believe. It’s time for him to get 15 minutes per night. If he sucks, then he sucks and I was wrong. I think he’s 1000% more likely to contribute meaningful minutes to the 2008-09 Pistons than Kwame Brown. I think Amir has the potential to become a face-of-the-franchise type star. I don’t actually think he’ll fulfill that potential, but I think that’s the ceiling. I think the worst case scenario with him is that he’s an excellent 6th man, and teams can always use guys like that. Oh yeah, he played almost the entire season as a 20 year old. I don’t want to re-have this debate, but it’s time to find out exactly what we have.

Oh, and let me get out in front of this:

If Amir sucks, then I’m all for Kwame taking his minutes, provided he’s playing better.

I fully recognize that Amir and Kwame have different skill sets and are likely to be used in different situations.

It’s just that after the last 3 years, I’m skittish about minutes. I don’t like that there’s another option that seems less appealing than Amir’s boundless energy and hustle. Those are both things that we desperately lack and desperately need, and Amir, Max, and Stuckey seem to be the only guys providing them. I want less resistance to those guys getting minutes, not more.

@Spottie:
“No one loves Maxiell more than I do, but the man is a power forward, and an undersized one at that. I think it’s unreasonable to expect him to guard 7-footers. Even Dice struggles with it at times.”

No question about that, I just wanted to defend the guy on his performance against Howard. I see now that we both intended the same sentiment :)

Paul M. – I guess I’ll have to take 82 games’ word for it but I’m still skeptical. This is way subjective – but I just can’t get the image of him flailing at guys like Pierce, Lebron, even guys like Hedo out of my head. He bites on PF pump fakes- how is going to have the discipline to stick a SF? I’m not dismissing it until I see it and of course not every SF is Lebron or Pierce, but don’t we want to give the guy a defined role? It seems like right now he would be picking up scrap minutes at the SF and PF and when playoff time arrives whose gonna Defend Lebron, Pierce, Hedo, Iggie, etc? Maybe, he could do it. Curry was our SF back in the day and he ain’t exactly the flash. We’ll see….or maybe we won’t.

Mike, re: Josh Smith is an undersized PF. His shooting is bad. That is irrefutable. However, that is one thing that can improve greatly over time. Also, as long as he can learn his limitations, I would be fine with a 3 who plays of the ball, runs the floor and finishes. We have plenty of jump shooters. (p.s. he shot around 45% from the floor last year, so he must be doing something right). I want someone to reek havoc. I’m ok with that person being my 3 man. Also, while I agree that he is not a great rebounder for a 4, Maxiell is only marginably better and Smith is actually better than sheed at this.

Sheed 6.6rpg, 10.4 rp48

Smith 8.2rpg, 11.1 rp48

Maxiell 5.3rpg, 11.8 rp48

McDyess 8.5rpg, 14rp48

That being said, I don’t want Shot Blocking Smith as my 4. I just thought you were being a bit harsh. I think his crazy style would be perfect for our polished bunch.

Aaron N, it was a joke.

WHYYYYY SSSSSSSSSSSSOOO SSSSSSSERIOUSSSSSS.

Since you are that way, then . . .

That big chocolate twinkie Joe just signed will never get rid of the bad touch. That ominous stinko-shadow follows Kwame wherever he goes. He’s the Eeyore of basketball.

Rasheed had that stigma, but he had TALENT. BIG DIFFERENCE.

Coach Curry mentioned in an early presser that his gameplan includes a lot more scoring in the painted area, Detroit has been a jump shooting team for the 6 trips to the ECF, Stuckey gets to the lane, Chauncey attacked the paint a lot more last season than in seasons past, Tay has the ability to attack the paint, and Afflalo has shown he is capable of driving the lane. Adding Kwame as a starting Center has the potential to help balance our offense, We got all these guys who have shown the will and the ability to get to the lane, now we got a guy who will take up space and open some wider lanes, I think this move was more a Curry move than a Joe D move.

I am not a fan of going back to the Big Ben years, but as LB pointed out in a previous thread, we did win it all with a limited-offense Center, perhaps this is the formula Detroit needs to get back to the finals.

WB PG4L.

Also, I just realized how funny it is that their is a “Amir can play back up SF” crowd as well as a “there is no way that Josh Smith can ever play SF, because he can’t shoot” crowd. Talk about overvaluing your own guy. and undervaluing the other guy.

OtherMatt- I’m with you 117% on Amir. It’s time for his chance and this Kwame thing wouldn’t even matter to me if it wasn’t for this having to mean that he’ll lose out some minutes at some point. What we’ve seen from Amir deserves the endless posts over thee years that it has garnered.

Colin-When playoff time comes around, Prince or Rip would handle defending LeBron and Pierce almost all of the time. Even if Amir played SF backup all season, he would probably be substituted in sync with when those players came in and out. Plus, over the course of a season of getting 12-18 minutes he would learn not to bite on pump fakes. But there are only a handful of guys in that Piere/LeBron category and no backup SF in the league can guard them – so that shouldn’t be a make or break type of thing when it comes to moving him to that position.

I think Josh Smith could play SF as well. There are lot of these situations: Odom, Marion, AK47, Artest, RJ, Turkoglu – are all pretty big SF’s ,height or weight or both, with varying handle, turn over rates, and jump shots. Then you got guys like Pierce, LeBron, and Carmello and then the rest of the SFs are all guys Smith could beat out on defense easily (I may have overlooked a guy or too). It wouldn’t be as crazy as some people are saying if he played SF.

Mike’s right.

Detroit doesn’t deserve another circus. Kwame brings his own national ridicule press conference. Is Joe planning on becoming a political campaign manager? That’s what it will take to clean up Kwame’s pathetic public standing.

/ran so far away

So if there are no other moves what are we looking at for minutes?

PG – Billups 30 mins, Stuckey 16 mins, Bynum 2 mins
SG – Rip 30 mins, Afflalo 10 mins, Stuckey 8 mins
SF – Tayshaun 30 mins, Amir 15 mins, Sharpe 3 mins
PF – ’Dyess 16 mins, ’Sheed 16 mins, Maxiell 16 mins
C – Kwame Brown 20 mins, ’Dyess 12 mins, ’Sheed 12 mins, Samb 4 mins

That’s doesn’t look too bad for player development and looks like 50+ wins again. Most NBA teams play their top rookie more than 3 minutes a game so maybe there is a bit too much young talent coming up at on time.

My guess is that it’s Sheed and Dyess that are going to be the ones to lose minutes. Not Amir and Maxiell. So relax.

I was thinking more like this…

Chauncey – 32min
Rip – 32min
Stuckey – 32min
Tay – 32min
Afflalo – 16min
Sheed – 24min
Dyess – 24min
Maxiell – 24min
Amir – 24min

Kwame (pt. determined by injuries and matchups).

Juicebox, glad we agree on Smith at the 3. Re: Amir at the 3. I will concede that it is a possibility. You pointed out that Rip would basically backup Tay in the playoffs. You’re right, and he’s pretty good at it too. However, if we don’t think Amir would be good enough to get 10 playoff minutes at the 3 then why would we play him there during the season? Just to satisfy our insatiable desire to see him on the court? Wouldn’t we want to use those minutes to evaluate whether Afflalo or Sharpe can back up Tay?

I think Amir has proven that he has the ability to play 15pg at the PF. He has some big weaknesses – mainly his size and propensity to foul. I think the fact that we are contemplating whether or not Amir could play out of position indicates how much the Kwame signing upsets the equilibrium of the rotation. More than I think Amir can’t play the 3, I think he should play the 4.

QD – 24min for Sheed? Really? How do you keep your best interior defender off the floor for half the game. He gets 30 at least.

Other Matt: Fair game on the -1 to me. I was dismissive, and I admit your concerns are 100% justified based on what we’ve endured w/rotations past. However, Ratliff is a lot more Amir than Kwame is. This signing shouldn’t make Amir’s bandwagon ride any bumpier. Matt W. and I were chatting last night about how this all but puts stamps the end to Theo on the squad. You mentioned that Ratliff got Amir’s minutes last year and that you felt that was crap. I don’t particularly disagree that it was crap (certainly would be absolute crap this season), but Amir always made Ratliff redundant (ie: Amir is built like and is better than Ratliff) because he had more skills and was seemingly more athletic. Kwame Brown makes no one on our team redundant. That’s not AT ALL to say something like Kwame > any/every player post player we have. It’s just to say, Amir and Ratliff are similarly built (physically) and Kwame isn’t built like anyone on our squad.

Yahoo! has Ratliff at 6’10, 235 and Amir at 6’9, 210. That’s based on Amir’s rookie season size, as is still 7’1, 195 from what Yahoo! uses and there’s no way Cheikh is still under 200 lbs. Rasheed is listed as 6’11, 230, Dice is 6’9, 245, and Max is 6’7, 260 (isn’t he like 245 now? Stupid Yahoo!). Point being, no one on our roster is remotely built like Kwame (6’11, 270 according to Yahoo!) using any metric, unless we ended up with 6’11, 280 pound Zaza Pachulia on our team (that was meant as a joke).

I know you’re not big on this theory and I don’t know how I can make you any bigger on it, but Kwame adds more of a dimension than he does skill(s). I theorize that this added dimension is just as important as any FA’s added skills. The crowd here is very mixed on that one. But I think it’s infinitely important that the three championship starting centers in the 2000s not named O’Neal or Ben Wallace are: Perkins, Oberto (6’11, 245 on Yahoo!), Mohammed (6’10, 250). I don’t think Kwame needs to start (though I prefer he did at <25 mins./game) like those guys, but our bulkiest player north of 6’9 from as of 48 hours ago is: Trent Plasted at 6’11, 245. Yikes.

Colin, those minute distributions are the “Developing the Youth” rotation. The starters are who we think they are. The current roster will only get over the hump with more hustle (via open competition) and developement from within (seeing what the young kids can do).

I like QD’s breakdown. I’d prefer Max/Amir-26 – Sheed/Dyess-22 – but that’s probably too out-there for this year.

Colin-The question is how do we keep our best post-defender in the post? I’m thinking Curry should use a leash – but I’m not sure if that’s allowed under the rules.

Here’s a couple of quotes from Joe D’s end of the season press conference:

“We’ll make a change – and we’ll make a significant change if we have to.”

“We’ve got to keep bringing in young blood – young blood, new blood, athleticism. It’s time for that influx to start having a serious impact going forward. We won’t just go forward with the same old same old. You’ll see new people, new blood, new faces out on the court for the Pistons.”

Granted there is no “I’m making a big change” line, but he did say “we’ll make a change” and “we’ll see new people, new blood.” Like I said, so far those changes have amounted to Kwame Brown, Will Bynum, another year of Lindsey Hunter, and some more work-in-progress draft picks. Color me less than enthused/impressed.

Oh, and I’ve got dibs on the domain name www.kwameisabeast.com

Quick Darshan – I like your minutes better than mine. My only question is how to get the best performance out of the backup SF minutes. Your numbers would have 16 minutes of Rip/Afflalo at SF.

Note: It doesn’t look like there are any minutes for Herrmann. He’s likely gone.

CK, do you get the sense that Dumars isn’t trying to make a trade?

Is there one out there rumor-wise you would have done? Or one you would propose?

JoeJoeJoe, yeah, I forgot about Sharpe and Hermann. I guess one of them would be like Kwame. Playing time determined by matchups and injuries.

“The current roster will only get over the hump with more hustle (via open competition) and developement from within (seeing what the young kids can do).”

Exactly. If we start the year with this current group the main goal in the regular season should be to develope the young guys (just like last year)…specifically Stuckey, Amir and Max. If we are finishing games in the playoffs with CB, Rip, Tay, Sheed, and Dyess we won’t win a title. In my opinion Stuckey, Amir and Max are the 3 young players who have the potential to be finishing games during the playoffs…so let’s give them every opportunity to grow and develop this year.

*develop (the 1st one…nice that I spelled it correctly once and incorrectly once in a two paragraph post)

Jim, add Afflalo to the develop list. He was his team’s go-to scorer in college. If he just slows down a little on offense and takes what the defense gives him, he’ll be at least serviceable on that end of the court.

QD…we should definitely develop Afflalo too, I’m a big fan of his. I just think a little higher priority should be placed on Stuckey, Amir and Max. I just can’t see any conceivable scenario where Afflalo would be choosen to be on the court at the end of a playoff game this upcoming year (barring injuries or foul trouble).

There is no chance Kwame is 270lbs.

6’11 250 is pretty thick… hmm what’s that comparable to? oh yeah, DEVON HARDIN IS ALSO 6’11 250LBS!!!

YAY!

WE GOT DEVON HARDIN!

oh and

Kwame isn’t bad because he’s a former #1 overall bust.

He’s bad because he has never improved any phase of his game. Rasheed developed the 3 point shot after killing it in the paint… Dice developed a mid range jumper after years of being an athletic beast… Billups went from a shoot first point guard to a facilitator… and on and on…

Kwame hasn’t developed anything other than dribbling the ball off his foot, being out of position on free throw boxouts, his ability to not know a guard is coming from his weakside for a steal as he tries to manage his way into the paint, etc. There is no jump hook in his repertoire. There is no 10 footer there. There is no mean streak ripping down the rebound and throwing it down with authority to hype the crowd up.

I understand that not everyone in Detroit’s starting 5 has to be an all star. It’s about time some of you have come around to think that way. We have a very soft front line. The addition of Kwame does not make them any tougher.

Besides, if he does blow up this year and opts out at the end of the year what happens? We don’t have his Bird rights, so he’s gone.

Kwame will get dominated by Perkins. We just signed the poor man’s Kendrick Perkins

This is a great signing for the price, but I’m not sold on Kwame in the starting lineup. That’s a little overly optimistic if you ask me. On a team as stacked as the Pistons are, I think 20 mins per game is enough for Kwame.

QD – I actually like the sound of your rotation (as long as we can still win) because I love watching the zoo crew. I just can’t see an NBA coach essentially giving 4 guys equal minutes at the 4 and 5, especially when 1 of them is clearly a superior player. At this point I think 24 mins for Amir is a pipe dream. I’d be happy with aorund 18.

Juicebox – “The question is how do we keep our best post-defender in the post? I’m thinking Curry should use a leash – but I’m not sure if that’s allowed under the rules.” In my opinion Sheed does his share of the dirty work on defense, his floating tendencies are limited to the offensive side.

Kwame breakdown

Pros:
Solid post D
Intimidating size
Provides flashes of hope twice a season

Cons:
Horrible ball-handling skills
Mediocre rebounder at BEST
Bad finisher
No longer has a mid-range game…or an inside game.
Rushes in the post, await turnovers
Not a shotblocker
Bad help defense
Lacks confidence
Inconsistent
From what I’ve heard, he’s not dumb at all, but on the court… he looks very, very lost… so that translates into horrible basketball IQ

So, essentially, all he’s good at is man-to-man defense. Which is something you guys need… so really, it’s not such a bad move for you guys… keep in mind though, even that is inconsistent.

“JesseC,

At least Kwame Brown didn’t go to Duke.

Then her posts would be REALLY long!"

And let’s not even discuss how over the top I’d have to go if he were white, foreign, physically awkward, had floppy hair and wore “compression shorts” (read girly f’ing tights)… My fingers might explode from the sheer volume of hate I’d be forced to unleash.

Jokes aside there is NEVER a good excuse for a post about KWAME BROWN to exceed 1 page. Even his MOM couldn’t find more than a page to write about him. “Has bad hands, no heart, sucks at basketball”. Done.

PS, actual response from a friend of mine who I called about this signing yesterday night:

PG4L “You haven’t heard? Joe’s gone crazy and signed Kwame for 2 years at 4 per according to Stien”

Jason “I hope you mean Kilpatrick”

This actually happened I swear.

Artest going to the rockets………for…..

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/bk/bkn/5914062.html

Bobby Jax and 1st round pick. I know his stock is down, but Jesus – we were discussing the merits of a Tayshaun for Artest swap not 48 hours ago. Bobby Jax is essentially useless at this point. Awesome deal for Houston.

Agreed with Juicebox on Amir at SF. Saying that he wouldn’t be able to defend Pierce or James might be a concern if he were being touted as Tay’s successor something. I don’t think he’d defend those guys that well either, but that doesn’t affect his ability to play backup SF next season since he wouldn’t be the one called on to take them on. He’s being groomed as a power forward, but he’s still had very effective minutes at SF, and he hasn’t filled out or slowed to the point where SF would be playing completely out of position like Colin suggests. Pointing to his playoff minutes isn’t the greatest way to insinuate that he can’t play there, since he was criminally underused throughout. I have my doubts about this as a solution as well, but no one has really given me reason to think that it couldn’t work, either.

My only concern is that playing him there could impede his offensive development. I was reading on him at draftexpress, and they actually emphasized his offensive potential, writing that he gets a lot of his points from offensive rebounds, post ups, and cutting to the rim. I get the impression that some people think that he only scores off assisted dunks and tip-ins and is otherwise a no-show on offense. He does get around half his points that way, but according to 82games, the rest of his shots were taken up close, and only 44% were assisted. That’s a fairly low rate, suggesting that he can create some for himself and is more than just a finisher. I kind of scoffed at this at first, but when I went through my friend’s archives, he does post up more than people think. It’s ugly and needs work, but he has some decent hook shots and his weird hot potato release around the basket is hideous but nonetheless effective. If he’s going to be developed as a post player, it would be ideal if he were playing primarily against power forwards and not small forwards.

Ouch. Guess the Kings just couldn’t live without more Bobby Jackson. Houston gets stronger, but I don’t think their biggest problems were SF or PF, which is probably where Artest plays. I would guess he starts at PF, which gives them a badass defensive combo in Battier/Artest. He also gives Houston a third reliable shot creator. Houston will probably have the best defense in the west by far next year.

Paul M. – In a word – Thoughtful

With a healthy Yao you have one of the best defensive centers as well. That’s ridiculous. If we could have gotten him for a first round pick and anyone on our roster (all, before yesterday, have more value than Bobby Jackson), I wonder why we didn’t. I supported Prince over him – but to have both, with Prince probably having to come off the bench as a 1-3, or have Artest play a smaller PF (he’s just as big as McDyess) would have been huge. But don’t fret, Joe D. got Kwame Brown so we’re set.

I officially give up on trying to forecast trades we could or should make. One second it’s Billups, a top 10 PER player, is only worth Al Harrington, not even Andris Biedrins. The next Ron Artest is worth Bobby Jackson and a 1st round pick from a team that will start Mcgrady, Yao, and Artest. I could go on, but I give up.

PG4L,

I’m glad that you’re back to help inject this site with much needed level headedness…

Sauce1977, PG4L, Mike Payne, QD, and me sometimes… it’s like the 4.5 horsement

or horsemen*

It sounds like the deal is Artest for Houston’s #1 next year, Donte Greene, and Bobby Jackson who’s in the last year of his $6 million dollar contract and an extra million.

There is only one real scenario that I can think of where the Sacramento FO doesn’t come out looking like a bunch of drooling morons. And that’s if the undisclosed player is Carl Landry, another stathead’s dream. Landry would have to get his per 36 numbers of 17/10.5 for it to work. And even then, Artest would probably have to miss a few NBA seasons working on a hiphop record or something.

Also, re: Kwame deal, isn’t it amazing what a meal ticket being a top 5 pick in the NBA draft is? I’m not saying the Pistons made a bad deal – I agree with the general “low risk, reasonably high reward” consensus here. But Brown has now signed two contracts since his original deal that he did not get b/c of his performance on the court. Certainly upside is worth something – and again, I’m not saying either contract was a bad one at the time they were signed. But just think how much money he’s been able to make by 1. getting drafted #1 and 2. not getting hurt to the point he couldn’t play a la Jay Williams. It’s a big, big deal to get drafted high.

since when does the NBA have “player to be named” type of trades being made

Forty is a member of the “4.5 horsemen” too… make it 5.5 horsemen

haha thanks boney – i was hoping to be worth at least a fractional amount of horseman :)

Artest AND Battier on the same team? You have to be kidding me. Houston is going to be a tough as nails squad. They probably had the deepest, cumulatively most-talented roster last season if not for injuries and now they get Artest for Bobby Jackson? My goodness. There goes your negotiating leverage, Carl Landry. See ya in Europe, buddy.

Ed Stefanski, Kevin Pritchard, and Daryl Morey comprise a triumvirate of hot new GMs with less than 2 seasons experience under their belt at the helm of their club. Of course, in Morey’s case, it’s nice when your owners lets you go over the luxury tax threshold. Poor Steve Kerr, he’s the lamest of the New GMs on the Block. At least the jury is still out on Rod Higgins and Mark Warkentien. Kerr should’ve stayed on TNT. He is awful.

It really amazes me when people aren’t willing to consider a large portion of Kwame’s colossal failure could very well be due to his environment and its subsequent emotional impact. Do people remember how bad the Jordan-era Wizards were? Jordan was not Jordan then, and Jahidi White actually played 19 mins. per/game during Kwame’s rookie year. They started Tyronn Lue 24 times and an almost 34 year-old Christian Laettner 66 times in Kwame’s second season! I mean, that is NOT the ideal place in the NBA to cut your teeth for a preps-to-pros, emotionally fragile, big man who needs to be nurtured.

In ‘03-’04, the Wiz starting five was: Gil, Hughes/Stackhouse/Hayes, Hayes/Jeffries, Kwame and Haywood. By ‘04-’05, Kwame was demoted and left for dead. Kwame was then traded that following off-season. We’re talking about a team that took Jarvis 10th overall (2003) and rode that horse for Kwame’s last two seasons in D.C. They took Jared Jeffries (11th overall) the year before that and he started 109 games during the ‘03-’04 and ‘04-’05 seasons. That’s a BAD environment. And the Lakers tenure, well, they were Kobe & the JV team before this year, and we know Kobe’s not the warmest, most patient, most encouraging teammate. Brown’s shattered confidence was further dismantled. It’s a perpetual cycle until someone tries to break it. Enter Detroit. I think he builds it back up in Detroit and he becomes a solid contributor.

Without Ric Flair and Arn Anderson, you can’t call it Horsemen.

You Hornets fan, you, LB

If one thing is for sure, this move makes Tracy McGrady just a touch more moveable…

Since I’m not even a fractional worth a fractional part of the horsemen despite agreeing with Boney on a lot of stuff, I’m going to go ahead and agree with LB…

…On the point of Ratliff being the 36 year old not as good Amir. That makes sense, actually. I was kind of miffed that we’re paying $4 million to somebody who gives you the same statistics as Ratliff. I actually liked what Ratliff gave us last year, I wish it would have been in not as many minutes and not at the expense of Amir. I still don’t like Kwame Brown, but I guess I’m willing to concede the point that he and Amir are likely to complement each other on D more than Ratliff and Amir. So thanks for that.

I’m such an engineer, “I’m not even a fractional worth a fractional part…” That’s inexcusable.

“Since I’m not even worth a fractional part of the horsemen” is how that should read.

Some players like Raja Bell get better at age 26. Bruce Bowen was only breaking into the league at that age. Zydrunas Ilgauskas made a pretty big leap at age 26. Jeff Foster’s got better on offense (mostly by subtracting bad shots) after age 26. I think there is at least as much reason to believe Kwame Brown can improve as any other 26 year old in the NBA.

Can Darko break through, too? What about Michael Olowokandi? What about Shawn Bradley? What about William Bedford? What about Rafael Araujo? What about Chris Washburn? What about Bryant Reeves?

Kwame could provide the same things that 100 other guys could provide for a veteran’s minimum.

You can argue against the significance of having to deal with Kwame’s negative legacy. And, you’ll be crushed under the weight.

I ask you, “how does it feel to be known as the team responsible for Darko Milicic?”

Ah, did you feel that? That was the hackles forming, complete with involuntary defensive response. Now you know, so don’t go there. This is Joe’s problem. We see him act . . . let him respond.

If he’s traded as part of a dollar-matching strategy, then so be it. In your sporting limbo, which is this moment, know that Detroit paid 6 million too much. 4 million per is too much money, and I don’t give a damn how much other teams overspent on similar 2nd and 3rd honeymooners. I give a damn about a Detroit team signing a known national laughingstock after already suffering negative PR with a recent one. I give a damn about lightly perusing a Detroit sports page and having a daily possibility of Kwame on it. We’re not that kind of team, up until we became that team yesterday.

/back to the cornfield

Man, I go to see Dark Knight tonight and there are 5 zillion new posts! Where to start?

1) Ron Artest. Man, the NBA has gone crazy. What’s with all the lop-sided player movement, and WHY AREN’T WE IN ON IT?!?! I don’t think that makes McGrady expendable at all — it just makes Houston a lot better. Keep the 3 together, especially since you got one of them for peanuts.
2) Kwame. In one of the very first posts on this thread I said it would be an interesting experiment to follow and I stick by that. I’ll reserve judgment until he plays a game in the red, white, and blue. Let’s let Sheed and Max beat up on him in practice a little bit.
3) I still want Josh Smith.
4) 4 Horsemen? Psh, you guys aren’t heel enough. Yeah, I said it.
5) Dark Knight? So awesome.

Garrett, I’d watch out because someone is liable to smash you in the face with a steel chair. My money is on MP.

garrett, not to get off topic, but i honestly can’t read anymore arguments yea/nay about the signing of kwame brown, so i need to poll moviegoers…

has there ever been a more violent pg-13 movie than the dark knight? the fact that it wasn’t rated r was absurd. friggin’ mpaa had to be on the take.

other than that, an enjoyable flick.

Climbs into ring, tears shirt off, roars

Garrett’s my boy, I can’t hit him with a chair without crying a bit on the inside. Maybe I respect him too much? Maybe I’m not cut out for the horseman after all…

@Garrett:
“I don’t think that makes McGrady expendable at all — it just makes Houston a lot better.

I don’t think anyone is saying that is makes McGrady expendable. However, as I said above, it does possibly make him “just a touch more moveable…” in case Houston is still looking to make more moves.

and re: Dark Knight. Hell yes it was! Notice that they didn’t kill the Joker in the end? My money is that he’ll be in the sequel.

/aisle ticket on the flight to hell, please.

@JackDutch:
I held a poll on my website about the film and was totally blown away by the response. Not to shamelessly self promote, but I suggest taking a look:
http://www.gearcrave.com/buyers-guide/entertainment/film/gearcrave-poll-what-did-you-think-of-the-dark-knight/

I’ve met people who weren’t completely blown away by it, but I don’t know anyone who actively disliked the movie. The people who weren’t incredibly impressed didn’t care for the pacing but otherwise thought it was very well done. I loved it, and most superhero movies leave me cold.

But if not for Begins, the title of best Batman movie wouldn’t really mean much. God, some of those old ones sucked.

Oh, basketball. The Kings are dumb.

I was one of those that thought Dark Knight was just okay. Too much story.

Then again, I might be bitter that it made 165 times more in one week than my flick made in three months.

@QD:
Just watched the trailer for your film. Where can a guy buy a copy? (if you’d rather, you can email me— i just contacted you via myspace)

I will repost it again. We need no more to be said!! Amen LB….He is 6’11" 270 lbs, and can move, a defensive presence….and who more do you want coming over for that D help but Sheed……put him together with our same core, young guys off the bench….and our ‘big change’ of the off season…getting rid of Flip Saunders and hiring Michael Curry!!!!! A coach that will make them play the right way again!! And our core players waiting this whole off-season crapping themselves not knowing if they will stay this season with the team that they want to stay with. Knowing they have to come out and play, no excuses, no switch to turn on, because their new coach will bench them and their GM WILL get rid of them…..Lets do this ONE LAST TIME!!!

And LB…..say it again!!…..

“It really amazes me when people aren’t willing to consider a large portion of Kwame’s colossal failure could very well be due to his environment and its subsequent emotional impact. Do people remember how bad the Jordan-era Wizards were? Jordan was not Jordan then, and Jahidi White actually played 19 mins. per/game during Kwame’s rookie year. They started Tyronn Lue 24 times and an almost 34 year-old Christian Laettner 66 times in Kwame’s second season! I mean, that is NOT the ideal place in the NBA to cut your teeth for a preps-to-pros, emotionally fragile, big man who needs to be nurtured.

In ‘03-’04, the Wiz starting five was: Gil, Hughes/Stackhouse/Hayes, Hayes/Jeffries, Kwame and Haywood. By ‘04-’05, Kwame was demoted and left for dead. Kwame was then traded that following off-season. We’re talking about a team that took Jarvis 10th overall (2003) and rode that horse for Kwame’s last two seasons in D.C. They took Jared Jeffries (11th overall) the year before that and he started 109 games during the ‘03-’04 and ‘04-’05 seasons. That’s a BAD environment. And the Lakers tenure, well, they were Kobe & the JV team before this year, and we know Kobe’s not the warmest, most patient, most encouraging teammate. Brown’s shattered confidence was further dismantled. It’s a perpetual cycle until someone tries to break it. Enter Detroit. I think he builds it back up in Detroit and he becomes a solid contributor."

MP: Thanks for checking it out. “Before the Rains” is still playing in theaters somewhere but I’m sure it’ll be out on DVD later in the year. Netflix has a page for it up already.

“Ocean of Pearls” (which was all shot in Detroit) is still playing festivals and they’re looking for distribution.

You think Joe D didnt talk to Sheed, Dyess, Ratliff about helping this guy, helping him regain his confidence…he has the tools…

I have no idea what a “Four Horsemen” is but frankly the other “Members” listed are pretty much 90% of the reason why I bother to read this sight. The other 10% involves a secret crush on Amir….

Seriously though I think he meant me as the .5 member, either because I’m not a horseMAN per se or because I’m rarely ever here.

Wrestling is stupid.

Also have I mentioned Kwame Brown sucks and I want to kill myself every time I realize this signing actually happened?

FAKE CARL MALONE SAVE ME!

Oh, finally, I absolutely REFUSE to watch the newest Batman movie for two reasons:

A) The last one sucked

B) They still haven’t appologized to Tim Burton and offered to do anything short of having Bruce Wayne live in a giant peach to get him back.

Seriously anyone over 25 in this room knows what I mean, the first two “new” Batman movies from the 90’s were and will forever be the ONLY Batman movies worth mentioning. The Crow, Underworld, The Matrix and Sin City are all just bad imitators of that Tim Burton magic.

Also Kwame Brown sucks at basketball. Just-sayin.

PG4L, I share and add your sentiment in general, with regard to films and their remakes.

The direct remakes are often of poor quality when compared to the original. The Stepford Wives ‘75 and The Stepford Wives ’04 is a typical example. Wives ’75 was mildly relevant film, and the works by Levin and Goldman helped popularize a female term similar to “Uncle Tom.” The ’04 version was a train-wreck of production problems and weak story with a fatal plot error at the end of the film, a work of zero cultural signficance in sum. The problems behind the scenes of ’04 and their catastrophic results make ’75’s tension and meddling between Goldman and Forbes look like a lovers’ tiff.

There are quasi-remakes that are worth the time, however. Rear Window is one of my favorite Alfred Hitchcock films. I enjoyed Disturbia not nearly as much as Alfred’s version, but Disturbia held its own and did so with quality.

Batman, however, I have to put into a different category. I see comic book characters as legends similar to Robin Hood, Gilgamesh, you name it. Comic book characters like Batman and Superman are basically America’s contribution to mythical heroes. They will be redone and redone and redone some more over human existence.

I do despise the youth and the general lack of curiosity with older film. The amount of kids I’ve read who prefer the latest Halloween or Texas Chainsaw Massacre to the original . . . such kids tend to use baseless reasoning. Only emotions are expressed, much like older people do for the “good old days.” See my ramblings on how it is inconscionable for a Pistons fan to root for the Celtics. The difference is that I’m right and these kids are idiots. But I digress.

Pure emotion without reason is pretty flimsy. These kids also miss jokes left and right, since it’s ironic to them when there is a fly in their chardonnay.

What I’m trying to say is, let’s hurt children.

Wait.

Nevermind. Kwame Brown is a 4 million dollar Theo Ratliff. But the current Nolan Batmans are worth watching. And they’re very good. So are the Tim Burton Batmans.

I’m definitely not trying to be extremely down on the Kwame signing – I get the good parts. I’m seriously just legitimately confused. But if one of the Kwame enthusiasts could explain to me how he’s (who couldn’t crack the Memphis rotation ahead of Jason Collins) is going to get minutes when Nazr Mohammad (who was actually NOT a liability for the Bobcats) couldn’t last year with our young big men having less experience than they do now. Not being facetious – it just doesn’t make any sense to me.

i though tdk was very solid. and an improvement on the first (new) one. but i don’t think the burton batmans hold up super great upon repeated viewings. especially the catwoman/penguin one. that’s almost unwatchable. i enjoy these more because they’re more ‘the killing joke’ style batman, which is what i like.

that being said, i would give my 13 year old nephew an issue of playboy before i let him borrow my copy of ‘the killing joke.’ how are we that turned around a country where it’s okay for a teenage kid to see 150 minutes of (SPOILER ALERT) torture, terrorism, pencils in eyes, bombs in dudes, and a guy with half a friggin’ face, but if he sees an exposed pair of breasts, he’s liable to rape and pillage a countryside? down with the mpaa and their frickin’ whitebread, whitewash, whitewing bulls***. they’re probably all driving around in batmobile replicas, courtesy of warner bros.

and to keep it somewhat bball related, the kwame brown signing to me will do much less damage than it has the potential to do good. much like batman. i guess what i’m trying to say is kwame brown is the new batman.

I repeat, the last one sucked. That would be Batman Begins, which YES I did bother to see. You can claim it’s my “old” (read 31 years old) eyes all you want, but I DID see the first “new one” and absolutely hated it. Plus I’ve seen ads/clips of the new one with Batman riding around on a Tron-Cycle with two giant Machine guns. Batman doesn’t need machine guns.

Tim Burton got it. Grant Morrison gets it. Tim Sale/Jeoff Leob “get it”. Your man Nolan? Doesn’t get it.

JUST LIKE KWAME BROWN DOESN’T GET IT! See the basketball connection?

Also at Sauce… I work incredibly hard as an assistant to a man who gave me money last christmas and told me to “buy myself a present from him”… for some weird reason the 2nd Burton Batman was actually my favorite of the two.

Also, Alan Moore, the author of the Killing Joke? Would probably puke to know you consider this movie in the same vein as his “masterwork”… but he’s a snotty English art-whore…

pg4l, i hope you’re not talking to me as referring to chris nolan as “my man.” since aside from ‘memento’ his is a career that i barely pay attention to. and i can agree with you that ‘batman begins’ is a flawed endeavor that degrades over repeated viewings, but it doesn’t have anymore stretchmarks of any of the earlier batmans, except the 1st burton flick.

and alan moore hates everything put to celluloid via hollywood so what do i give an f if he would puke or not? i’ll barely think of his vomitus reaction when i’m watching ‘watchmen’ next year as well. which most would consider his true “masterwork” anyway.

this is some friggin’ nerd talk is what this is.

kwame brown is the answer. there. better.

JD, I think I meant Sauce… it’s really hard to tell though since I yelled at him (figuratively, I hope none of you are high strung enough to assume Batman movies actually make me enraged, because ummm… that’s on you, not me playa) for something you said earlier. Basically I need to learn to read.

JUST LIKE KWAME BROWN!!!!!!!!!

this new Batman movie stirred up something in my loins after I saw it the 2nd time…

I think that’s all I need to say.

Sauce:
“I ask you, "how does it feel to be known as the team responsible for Darko Milicic?"”

Not as bad as it used to be after trading Milcic for Orlando’s #15 pick in 2007.

See, now you muggs feel real cheap as an outfit, like BlogaBull.

/potshotted

/back-slash cheap

/pissing on your happiness

/baby ruth in the pool

/whistling at your mom

/watching you get hott to Kwame

JackDutch: Yeah, it was kind of violent for a PG-13 movie, but it wasn’t overtly violent I didn’t think. But it DID show some pretty twisted imagery and psychotic ideas. As the movie started, my wife and I saw a woman bringing her little boy down the aisle looking for a seat. We both kind of chuckled and were like, “Ouch. Sweet dreams tonight, kid.”

Mike Payne: Thanks for not taking me out with an hellacious chair shot. Internet buzz says there’s some Joker footage on the cutting room floor that could make it into a third movie……

PG4L: Even though you didn’t like Batman Begins, you should check out The Dark Knight just for Heath Ledger’s performance. It’s up there with the best villains of all time, I think, but what do I know? I’m a giant nerd. And I’m Canadian, to boot.

I’m with JackDutch on the violence in Dark Knight. I was very surprised with what they got away as a PG-13 movie. Of course, we should know by now that the MPAA isn’t immune to lobbying. Titanic got a PG-13 rating despite showing full-frontal nudity, which is (as far as I know) the only one.

Yeah, in Australia we had some dumb mother complain in the news that the movie frightened her 8yr old son. I mean, if people are too stupid or ignorant to make an informed decision on a movie, regardless of its rating then we should all point and laugh at them. Just as most of you will at my dear Kwame.

Yeah, when I saw Pan’s Labyrinth, some people brought their kids, and they were predictably all horrified. Gee.