Bill Davidson has opinions

I’m not feeling his political opinions, but he’s still great.

hes great….i’d love to hear his voice on pistons possible trade….offcourse thats not gonna happen!

I think he’s smart about the auto companies but McCain? Thats just an old guy who wants an old guy in office.

The richest man in Michigan wants McCain®? Go figure. I’d be willing to bet the the richest man in EVERY state wants McCain.

I wonder how Dan Gilbert feels about “phony” mortgages.

Not to turn this into a political thread, but the state of MI has been in a one state recession for 10 years, minimum. Unless something has changed since I was there 25 years ago, D’s run the state and one only has to look to Detroit to see the effect of Ds, Unions and gov’t employee effect. In short, you can’t tax your way out of a recession nor can you tell people that if you work for 25 or 30 years you can retire with all your pay (or 90% like in in CA) and lifetime health insurance for you, your spouse, your kids.

Ever wonder why all these public service unions invest in the stock market but fight allowing others to put a fraction of their SS into the market? Me neither. If it’s so “bad” why are they doing it. Oh, I forgot…do as I say not as I do.

On the other hand, I like a owner who stays out of the way. Hank, Cuban, Davis…extremely successful but I’d hate to be a GM with these guys looking over my shoulder even in my sleep….wait a minute, that didn’t sound right.

Everyone have a safe and happy 4th. And come back to work on Monday with all 10 fingers.

John McCain, huh?

That is a sour development.

Chauncey’s political opinions are far better.

Mark, if you look at the country as a whole, the most economically productive states are all blue, or democratic, states: NY, CA, MA, etc etc

The map of states that receive more in federal money than they contribute in federal taxes overlays almost identically with the Bush-Gore/Kerry states: the blue/democratic states are productive and send a lot of money to Washington, and it all gets plowed into the poorer, less productive red states (the whole midwest: NE, SD, ND, WY, MT, etc etc etc).

Michigan has been doing poorly economically in large part because the management of the big car companies consists principally of idiots. Toyota and Honda make better cars and have recognized that consumers want some good, reliable smaller vehicles; the US makers continue to churn out giant fuel-guzzling trucks and terribly designed small cars. No wonder they’re doing terribly.

Methinks this article might explain some of Mr. D’s political views regarding the election:

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2008/07/02/obama_israel/index.html

PS: Here’s a chart showing “Federal Spending Received Per Dollar of Taxes Paid by State, 2005”

http://www.taxfoundation.org/research/show/266.html

Notice how virtually all the beneficiary-states are red-republican-leaning, and the states who contribute more than they received are blue-democratic-leaning.

Oh, and sorry to hijack the thread.

Fritz, might want to check out a guy by the name of Warren Buffet.

Agreed with the rest here though, Obama or bust.

While I’m not sure this is a good place to debate politics, I’ll say I’m with J and disagree with MarkButter (except for the “come back with all 10 fingers” part).

J, there’s a difference between correlation and causation.

For example, I would hypothesize that college educated people tend to vote Democrat. I would also hypothesize that college educated people make more money than non college educated people. And I would finally hypothesize that people who make more money get taxed more.

In this case, states with more college educated people would tend to be blue states AND would be taxed more. But the Democratic principles are not responsible for the fiscal situation, the state demographics are.

And I could test my hypotheses by looking at the median income level by state, and I find this evidence http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2005/05/median_income_d.html . My point is simply that just because two things are related, doesn’t mean that one caused the other.

Oh and, Go Pistons! (I had to make the post relevant)

I don’t put anything against Davidson for his opinions. Those are typical of an old man. Ask anyone over 70, and they’ll say much of the same thing about McCain.

I do see the discrepancy of Davidson’s opinion about unions as one of a minority. He has rightful views into the UAW bloat, but at the same time, it were members of the ownership class who were negligent in their efforts (unlike Davidson) who brought the UAW into existence. Checks and balances.

As for what sunk the economy, that’s not just one thing, but one of many reasons. The Baby Boomers are reaping what little they sowed.

I love Davidson, but my only gripe is his vote with everyone except for Cuban and Allen to basically wash themselves of the Seattle mess. Davidson had nothing to worry about, let alone the fear of Auburn Hills holding his Pistons business hostage. He should have been wiser to see how Allen and Shinn were treated by the NBA in contrast to Bennett, and Davidson should have voted in opposition to give that pig Stern the proper number one salute he deserves.

Yeah I forgot about Buffet, but if you have $62 billion it probably doesn’t really matter who is president.

I said richest person in each STATE not in the WORLD…but point taken.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_billionaires_%282008%29

Lucas: Yeah I forgot about Buffet, but he’s like the richest guy in the WORLD. If you have $62 000 000 000 you can vote for whom ever you feel like. What’s the difference, right? You’ll get what you want.

Hell, if you have that kind of money, you can ELECT whomever you feel like – see Boone Pickens.

What is the political climate like around Michigan right now? Of course I can see polls and what not online, but do you guys notice anything aside from the election looking close? I’m in Texas right now and the big difference in this election (from previous ones) is enthusiasm. Obama doesnt stand a snowball’s chance in Hell, but count on seeing 20 Obama bumper stickers before finding a McCain one.

It is interesting to see how nba members stack up in politics, I wonder what players would surprise by being on the republican side.

There’s always the debate of who sends in what and how much they get back. Didn’t check the per capita, but with the largest pops in CA & NY, given also higher income to live in those states, all else being equal their taxes to the Feds are going to be more in shear dollar numbers compared to what they get back. Do these states have interest in securing the southern border around TX & AZ, for which they would be willing to pay for (i.e., not get as much back?). And the transfer has always been less for a number of years for these states regardless of which political party is in the WH. It has to do with volume of payers paying in. If it takes 100 people to pay fed tax to get a street paved and you’ve got twice the number of people as another state but the same highways due to geography and density, you’ll always pay in more than you’ll get back just because you’ve got more people and less roads.

The states who are struggling: CA, MI, OH (D governor), VA, NJ, alot of those are blue states and heavy union when it comes to gov’t EE’s. The UAW is bloated, has been bloated and will always be bloated. When was the last time UAW said they were cutting back on staff in any significant manner given the cutbacks over the last 30 years of the UAW rank and file?

Given the talent in the area, why are Nissan and the like building plants in TN, GA and elsewhere? Part of the answer is politics, the UAW and of course state “welcomeness” to the business entity. People keep saying giving tax breaks to individuals don’t work. If not, why do state give tax breaks to companies to locate there?? they realize that it brings business and people (income taxes) into state coffers. If it’s cheaper for companies to come to a state because they will have more money to spend because of tax breaks, why doesn’t it work for individuals to have more money?

Out here in Cal, LA county can’t figure out why businesses keep moving to other counties or out of state. Kern county which borders LA county has far less OSHA type restrictiions, etc. These folks want to nickle and dime you just to take a crap or turn on a freakin lightbulb…and I think LB can back me up on the whole lightbulb thingy.

The fact is the UAW is using a business model that is Ty Rex Extinctus. I don’t want to piss anyone off here, but having a guy in shorts, tennis shoes smoking a cig while tig welding 8 spots on a car day after day can’t possibly make the equivalent of $60/hr over the long haul and possibly have that company stay competitive. Whether it be today or 35 years ago before “globalization.” You once could support a family of 4 on a teachers or grocery store wage. You can’t do that anymore and my old man said that back in 79. If he was smart enough to know it then, everyone else was too, they just didn’t want to admit it. (By the way, he had a masters in education, taught then went to work at Kroger full time as opposed to just summer due to a pissing contest with the superintendent of the school he taught at). These companies have priced themeselves out of the market by promising more and more and delivering to their customers less and less. CA is going to go bancrupt with the gov’t EE unions and what they’ve promised. And it is a shame because there’s enough talent to make it work in MI if anyone had the balls to say it straight.

Antagonizing even more, those jobs ain’t coming back and have been gone for a long time and people know this. The auto industry and by connection, the UAW are just waiting to suck on the Fed teet when the “financial” pkg comes to help turn them green instead of doing it themselveswhich is what honda and others are doing. Are you gonna buy a green car from honda in 5 years that’s been doing the work for the past 10 or the Ford model that just rolled off the line? In addition, Det has a quality problem or at least percieved as a quality problem ever since they made Pintos or Vegas with cheap ass steel in the door panels in the 70’s and there’s a problem when your selling point that you want to remind people of is “Quality is job 1” ad campaign. (I realize this is an old ad campaign) Do any of us go buy something thinking about quality that needs to be re-assured to us by the company….shouldn’t that just be a given? Sure, there’s a difference btwn Kia and Mercedes… but you also pay for it. The fact that you even have to think about a company’s quality (other than normal purchasing psychology) says alot about the company. BMW says it as part of their campaign..Det had to say it to reverse the thought process and manufacturing process that had come about. A very big difference.

As for Obam Man and McCain… to each his own. But as Jerry Ford said, “A government big enough to give you everythign you want is a government bigh enough to take everything you have.”

Sorry for the rant…said 4 finger Mark

Joe D is a Republican

So, back to the topic…

When Davidson says Saunders “was not attentive to details enough,” what do you think he means? In-game adjustments, perhaps? Making sure the players warm up and stretch out properly? It’s rather vague, so I’d love to hear your opinions on it.

http://www.thingsyoungerthanmccain.com/

Some favorites from that link:
The Zip Code
The Golden Gate Bridge
Alaska
The Polio Vaccine
The Nacho
Israel
McDonalds

“I don’t want to piss anyone off here, but”

Chances are 100 percent that you will piss someone off with the words following the “but.”

I think Davidson meant that he didn’t ride people for being late out on the court for shoot around, heck, it could even be the buffet line pre-game. I also think he might have meant that if Flip called a play or two and it wasn’t run correctly (i.e., guy back on D or spacing) that he just let it go. But I think it also means that each player is given what to work on in practice or shoot around or something and Flip didn’t always follow up with asst coaches or trainers making sure it got done. I think it also means that I really don’t know what the hell he meant.

KWAME KILPATRICK FOR PRESIDENT!

Kidding. Criticizing the leadership and farsightedness of unions is fair enough, but American automakers certainly weren’t very farsighted in riding the SUV craze as far as they could then hoping for a government bail-out for research and development of fuel efficient vehicles.

But yeah, go Obama. And the Pistons. And Davidson too.

Sauce 97: I’m always reminded of some joke about the mob where you bust somebody’s balls but end it with, “hey, I’m just sayin’” or something to that effect.

I’ve been out of the state of MI for 25 years and I’m going by the 70’s and early 80’s but I’ve got family and alot of good friends there who can’t figure out what’s wrong with MI regarding the economy. Sure, it auto dependent and given the weather climate, the state needs to do more to make it more business friendly. Here in CA, you can actually get unemployment because your job stresses you out. Hell, find another one then. The state, and particularly the county of LA has like 30% of their workforce at some point on disability or work comp.

I guess my point was if you privatized the DMV and paid them piece work, damn straight the line moves faster. I’m always reminded of William F Buckley who said "If it’s true these folks aren’t making a “living wage”, why aren’t they dead yet?"

Shinons: agree. Both the automakers and the UAW were short-sighted.

MarkNutters: I wasn’t one of those who would be angered.

Part of the problem is that GM isn’t just competing with Toyota.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keiretsu

I’m not sure if GM could diversify or not, but the constant ‘mergers’ and the subsequent evaporation of jobs doesn’t seem productive except for the handful of people who suddenly make a profit off the wholesales of the redundancy. Does cannibalism happen in Japan? I’m not sure on that, either.

Sauce: The mergers I think is because it’s a tough world out there and due to short-sighted of investors. Evryone is looking at this quarter and trying to find out why or what happened or didn’t happen and making stock holders happy. Everyone wants to ride the next Microsoft or Google or something without putting in the hard work of slowly investing, making a product, customer service, etc.

You can’t be all things to all people all of the time. Sometimes, size doesn’t matter. But I also think that we’ve gotten to the point where if something doesn’t work, it’s someone elses fault or we want someone to pick up the pieces for us. It’s like Animal House (sort): Flounder, you F’d up…you trusted us.

Well, perhaps you shouldn’t ride your motorcycle without a helmet Mr. Busey. I think GM and others can change. I think the brain power and talent is there. But it’s going to require a long term outlook that may get rouhg at some point and we need everyone aboard. The shareholders, management and unions/employees have to realize that instead of “what’s in it for me” and “how fast do I get it back” mentality.

If the pistons suck and don’t draw, Sheed, Dyess, Billups, etc all get their contract. Davidson, he looses money. who should have more say in how things are run? But I digress.

am i in the wrong place? i thought this is a basketball blog site??

Hey MarkinSoCal,

I’m afraid I have to disagree with you about the Dems running Michigan the past 10 years. Have we forgotten about Gov. Engler. I think Jennifer Granholm has been in office about five to six years and before her Gov. Engler held office. Gov Engler didn’t accomplish much other than redirecting the flow of taxes from property owners to the consumers in the form of a consumption tax. That’s not much to brag about in my opinion.

Oh,
and regarding basketball. I still like Bill Davidson. He recognizes talent when he sees it. He could have had either Isiah Thomas or Joe Dumars running his operation and you see how both have turned out as executives. The old man sort of knows what he’s doing.

I just want to chime in and ask that we never talk politics in any form whatsoever here. I love sports, in part, because it’s not politics. When I’m in a sports frame of mind, I want Detroit fans to be my friends and Cleveland/Chicago fans to be my enemies. I don’t want the conversation to go in a direction where I start disagreeing with and hating my fellow Detroit fans! Nor do I want to agree with or side with Cleveland/Chicago fans! These things happen when you bring up politics.

I remember the 2004 Michigan/Michigan State football game. You know, the 3 OT thriller. Anyway, students were handing out Bush and Kerry stickers going into the game. I find myself sitting with between people wearing Kerry and Bush stickers, and they start arguing politics during the game! Both Michigan fans! Insane! Politics, especially now, are divisive and bitter. And while I will note that the general tenor of the conversation seems to be civil, it get get nasty really fast. We don’t need that here.

We’re all Pistons here!

*can get. Sigh. I suck at writing.

Other Matt: +1 (though it was my fault for steering the conversation in this direction with my post …)

Other Matt: Agreed “We’re all Piston fans” and I didn’t mean to turn the thread from sports to politics. Hopefully you had enough booze in you to smack those two around in 04.

ShawnDC: Engler – you are correct, my bad.

You don’t get to where Mr. Davidson is by being an idiot and not having any business savy. It’s like Magic said something like “I’ve got money but I don’t know how to run a bottling plant. I’ll hire someone who knows.” Didn’t Isiah run the CBA into the ground? I thought at one point he had purchased it. I definitely think Isiah can spot talent (T-mac when he was in toronto, D. Lee) but I don’t know why it hasn’t filterd into the coaching/Pres arena yet. My theory is that he always believed he was a one-man show and it’s crossed over into his admin duties (i.e., doesn’t play well with others). Anyone got any ideas?

Out here I think the Lakers & spurs are teaming up for a D-League affiliate. Why those two would be doing it is beyond me, but does Det have an affiliate they partnered with someone?

If we’re having this much fun before anyone can “officially” sign somebody, can’t wait for the 9th to get here. I think Joe D. waits for all the dust to settle and then makes his move. He’s going to let the market decide on smith, childress, maggette, etc., and then make a play for someone knowing he can say, "hey, this is what XXX got, signed for, etc., and it puts him in a better position. Let everyone overbid first and then sign someone who feels they got left in the cold.

And on the bright side, after 9 years I finally found my Clippers hat. Don’t worry, I use it to paint in !!

I get what you’re saying, MarkButter. There’s a lot of wishes to snag some money for nothing and chicks for free.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNaKWXqXkhw

Rather than talk about that song’s controversy, or become the stereotypical character talking about the things in the song, I see it for what it is in the moment – a nightmare not just for Detroit, but everyone. Gas is the currency of fear and distress. American way of life is threatened. This goes beyond GM insisting that Hummers are what everyone should be driving. Every industry is going to have serious trouble.

As for manufacturing, NAFTA pretty much made it almost impossible to do a whole lot of manufacturing in the United States, period. Yeah, they’re not coming back, but something isn’t fair if free trade is mostly made by the United States.

Other Matt (et. al.),
I use sports as an escape as well. Still, if a sports-related figure says something or does something that is loathsome to me, that affects my ability to escape. Today, I’ve learned that my dream billionaire buddy is a John McCain supporter. And today, I love the Pistons just a little less. (Of course, give me time to forget Mr. D’s comment and I’ll love them the same as I always have—mind, body, and soul).

First time poster, btw. Love the site.
Mike

“I don’t want the conversation to go in a direction where I start disagreeing with and hating my fellow Detroit fans! Nor do I want to agree with or side with Cleveland/Chicago fans! These things happen when you bring up politics.”

Last I checked, there were Pistons fans rooting for Boston in the Finals. It’s too late.

we are all hipocrates.

Just saw this on John Hollinger’s write up:

“At any price, Diop gives little bang for the buck on offense. In 52 games as a Mav this past season, he averaged 3.0 points per game. Ready for the punchline? It set a new career high. "

That’s money classic quote right there.

And I don’t think they could get away bashing boy george in that song with today’s PC environment…

Ohhhhhhhh… I want to say something about NAFTA now, especially as an engineer with a little experience in the Auto Industry, but I’d be breaking my rule. Dammit!

Motley Crue thought it was about them, MarkButter. Perception is amazing.

Here’s to hoping that Amir Johnson turns into Dennis Rodman but with more scoring and less desire for Demolition Man homage.

(I know you can’t compare the two, but apparently experience only matters in politics, not coaching …)>>

Some of Curry’s experience

1. Played in the NBA for over 10 years – A lot more than Saunders
2. Was assistant coach in the NBA which Saunders never was
3. Was head of the NBA players union, which Saunders never was

Curry has lots of experience in the NBA and in the leadership role. If you are an former NBA player that can be head of the NBA players union you can coach a NBA team.

If it helps any, Other Matt, sports used to be a release for me. There isn’t much of a release anymore in anything. Everything is bad for you. This is what happens when doves cry. This is what happens when George Carlin dies.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAb8kMFbXkc

Sorry kids.

And I thought narcolepsy jokes were controversial!

To get an idea of where Bill Davidson is coming from take a look at this Statement of Ethics from his company, Guardian:
        
Statement of Ethics

While Guardian has always prided itself on winning through creative, aggressive competition, our active pursuit of success must always be combined with honesty and integrity. Guardian people are expected to deal honestly and ethically with customers, suppliers, governmental bodies, the public, and each other.

Some basic standards of behavior should be apparent from this principle. For example, we do not let our personal interests, or the interests of friends or family, create a conflict in how we do our jobs. We protect company assets and confidential company information and do not use them for our own benefit or the benefit of competitors. We do not falsify records or destroy documents or things that we have reason to believe should not be destroyed. We respect the laws, contracts, and policies that apply to our activities and do not take positions involving them that we cannot fairly justify to others. In short, we do not engage in behavior that we would not be comfortable explaining to our co-workers and families or having reported in the news.

Maintaining our high standards requires self-awareness and, sometimes, consultation. If you become aware of any actions by others that seem to compromise Guardian’s ethical standards, or if you are unsure of the proper course of action for yourself, discuss the issue with your manager or department head, or with a member of the legal department.

The Guardian Way is to entrust people with responsibility for which they can be held accountable. Every Guardian employee is responsible, and will be accountable, for upholding Guardian’s standards. The Guardian Way also says "Guardian is People." Behaving ethically while competing to win is a necessary part of ensuring that this statement is a source of pride, not just a slogan.

      William Davidson, President

If every business had that sense of ethics and shared responsibility espoused by Bill Davidson there would have never been a need for unions. But it’s pretty clear that men like Davidson are the exception, not the rule, among ownership.

Davidson should sell the Pistons. There’s nothing responsible, accountable, ethical, or respectful about the NBA.

MarkButter: I’ll tell you this in response to asking for my back-up: LA is a pretty jaded place and if you think the San Fernando Valley is lame (as everyone not involved in the porn industry should), and if you’re sick of the jaded nature of LA, don’t work in the entertainment industry, but still want the climate and the ocean, it makes sense to get out of LA County. That’s all I feel qualified to say on that.

But further, as a typically Liberal-minded, Los Angeles twenty-something, I care a lot more about Bush’s eight years of social K Hole that make us look like giant “twats” (it’s more British English than American English, so it’s not vulgar!) than I care about the economy. We’re an international laughingstock, fact. Our President has shown to be consistently foolish behind a podium, not willing to admit/apologize for horrible errors in judgment (that strikes me as the most heinous of acts considering his track record) and because we’re in Iraq entirely under false pretenses (is that still even debated or is it finally accepted as fact now?).

I probably have a huge bias because I’ve never been too economically uncertain at 23. That being said, the war in Iraq strikes me as one of the things I find most embarrassing about being an American (Though my lovely Republican cousin who has made her home in NY and was in WTC for work on September 4th, 2001 and if not for a postponed meeting would have been there on September 11th, would eagerly disagree. We are both rabid Pistons fans though, yay!). Truthfully, Obama could do an economic 180 from the policies he currently champions and I wouldn’t care a bit. He could do what he wants with tax cuts, and to me, it would almost be irrelevant. As long as the guy genuinely tries to fix our mess in the international political climate, maintains women’s rights (sorry pro-lifers, strictly a difference of opinion, nothing personal), and tries to do something about the sheer idiocy that is No Child Left Behind (I worked in education for more than a year since moving out here, so constantly being in elementary schools and working with dozens of elementary school teachers, I think I have a rather informed view), I’m a happy camper.

Regarding the link from DrRock (hat tip), that BS is unfortunately true. Davidson is a wonderful supporter to Israel, but if anything, Barack Obama is more qualified to handle Israel because the guy has a greater sense of international perspective than McCain, having grown up for a few years as a young child in Jakarta and having been literally “not an American” for the better part of his elementary school years.

All of that retired Jewish community being pro-McCain BS, thinking that Obama won’t properly support Israel, is just foolish. Obama and McCain pre-taped messages for a recent pro-Israel concert out and McCain was cheered while Obama was booed (Hillary was received mildly though mostly booed). Jews tend to be liberal, but a lot of old Jews (not all, as many old Jews still stick to their principles, I love you grandma!) have lost it, fearing that in the ever-volatile international community we need McCain’s iron fist to protect Israel’s interests. In a word: Wrong.

Also, not to rain on the perpetual Davidson love-fest, as I too am a fan, but you don’t take Guardian Glass to where it is today by being a lovey-dovey, cuddly, softie. Davidson is as shrewd as they come. And joejoejoe, I’m sure Enron’s statement of ethics wasn’t something incredibly far off Guardian’s.

I hope we’re all still friends, hehe. I believe rational political discourse can exist, and I still think most of you are great even if I may completely disagree with you on matters of hoop and harm (dysphemism for politics, yuk yuk yuk!).

"I’m definitely for McCain," he said quickly. "Ordinarily, I wouldn’t say because I’m not a Democrat or a Republican, but to me, it’s pretty clear cut."

Awww crap, Davison is an idiot.

Stick to basketball and hockey Mr. D, no one cares about your political views.

Davidson seems to have the midas touch. As I recall he rescued a family business from bankruptcy and has won a title in three different leagues. I don’t think that this sort of success comes by accident (not that anyone is suggesting that). He must be a moral type of person who has that ability to recognize talent and good character. I’m glad that he’s the owner of the Pistons and not the Ford Family. Of course, I tend to disagree with him about McCain. And I take solace from the untested ideal that he doesn’t make the best choices when it comes to people that he doesn’t have a close relationship with (ie Flip Saunders).

Man, I hate talking politics because it can be so divisive, but I feel I can offer some kind of objective view as an outsider to the whole (American) process.
I completely agree with LB in regard to what Bush has done to the way America is perceived, even here in Australia. In fact I think Bush is partly responsible for John Howard’s (former Prime Minister) demise after a decade of quite similar political ineptitude. Some of you might know that Kevin Rudd (current Prime Minister) pretty much got the job because people were sick of Howard. He also pretty much mimicked Howard’s policies and added some lefty Labour (political party) touches such as a focus on education and health. To over simplify things, Liberal (Howard) are/were focused on the economy and when interest rates climbed so did Labours election hopes.
What does this have to do with McCain or Obama? Just as Bush/Blair/Howard were major partners in a global right-wing dominance, I believe the pendulum is heading the other way. Howard and Blair are gone. After a decade of one form of government people here were willing to try something else because they felt disconnected from the people that governed them. I wonder if America feels the same way as Australia did? If it does, regardless of policy, age, race or gender a democrat will become President.
Also, for the record I voted Labour and always have.
Sorry for the political talk.

I guess if being locked up in a cage is the type of experience youre looking for..

“NE, SD, ND, WY, MT”

Wyoming is actually relatively wealthy, and four of the states you cite as being “less productive” sport unemployment rates that are in the bottom five in the nation. Idaho rounds out the top five.

North Dakota gets a lot of federal money by way of two Democratic senators who have secured billions in agra-welfare for their states. Agricultural subsidies do more to explain money funneled into “red states” than anything.

The other factor is related to infrastructure. South Dakota has to have a reliable interstate highway system, or else people in Illinois pay more for corn. However, South Dakota also has very few people to pay for said system. Hence, federal dollars.

I’ll refrain from offering political commentary, but since my wife is from SD, I felt compelled to profer a defense of red states.

“Agricultural subsidies do more to explain money funneled into "red states" than anything.”

I imagine those aren’t going in the right places… Hopefully some of them are going to help advancements in Ethanol fuel production.

Ethanol is a scam. Currently, to produce one gallon of ethanol, it takes the equivalent of more than one gallon of gas. So, it doesn’t make sense and is primarily a way to further subsidize the corn lobby. There are more efficient biofuels out there, but they don’t have the sort of political backing. Of course, it doesn’t help that Iowa is the first caucus in primary season.

So, about this basketball game… What do you guys think of the Clippers’ moves so far?

It’s interesting to me that one of the reasons we have time to bash unions is because people fought and died for the right to collective bargaining, which is what made things like the 40 hour work week and paid holidays a reality. Like having July 4th off? Thank the Wobblies and Socialists and members of the AFL-CIO, who were beaten, fired summarily from their jobs, shot at, or hung so that we could have safe working conditions and see our kids every now and then.

What’s that? You (like me) are working today? Probably that means you don’t have a union job (like me). On the other hand, I’ll be making increased wages on this holiday, thanks to the unions. We have forgotten that before the organization of unions, employees had no rights at all. Hurt on the job because of unsafe conditions? Tough luck. Want to know what the chemicals you’re using might do to your respiratory system? Too bad, that’s information you’re not entitled to. Don’t think you make enough money and want to discuss it with your boss? You wouldn’t be dumb enough to be fired over something like that so you sit on your hands and keep your mouth shut.

There are definitely problems with today’s unions. They protect a lazy worker right along with a productive one. They do have bloated payrolls and spend money on political actions. A bigger problem to me is that they don’t seem to be doing an effective job lately at safeguarding the welfare of their members. But all of those things are a better hell than having no job security, working 80 hours a week without overtime pay and dying young from Black Lung disease.

I love my job, which isn’t union and won’t have to be, because the company for which I work does a fabulous job of taking care of its employees (which, in turn, creates loyalty and makes us want to do everything we can to produce). I also realize that for every union job out there, several nonunion jobs with great benefits are created because the job market has to compete.

Ah crap, I’m sorry. Friggin’ basketball website and here we are, talking politics. I like Bill D, think he’s a great owner. I also know that people with the money to own a basketball team are probably going to be at odds with me politically. I guess in the offseason while we await the moves that will bring us a championship, we have to talk about something, right?

Happy 4th of July to the greatest fans in the world!

@Birdman:

It takes noteably less energy to produce one gallon of ethanol than it does to produce one gallon of gasoline. In fact, unlike ethanol, it requires more energy to produce one gallon of gasoline than the gas itself contains. Ethanol has a positive net energy yield.

“it takes the equivalent of more than one gallon of gas.”

This is the funny part— this is true if and only if you include the free solar energy used in growing the corn crops. The data cited to make this claim is from research by Cornell University entomologist David Pimentel who included the energy from the sun required to grow corn.

“There are more efficient biofuels out there”

I couldn’t agree more. Cellulosic ethanol, algae biodiesel and other biofuels are lightyears ahead of ethanol in performance and carbon output. However many of these technologies will not run in your internal combustion engine as is— auto manufacturers will need to provide flex-fueled engines to handle these fuels. The fact that corn ethanol is a sustainable and growing market on its own is driving Ford, GM and Chrysler to produce more and more flex-fueled autos each year. The more flex-fueled autos, the more opportunities for newer biofuels to reach a sustainable market.

Corn ethanol is a poor fuel— but not any worse than gasoline. To get to an Open Fuel Economy based on smart, clean, cheap biofuels, ethanol could be the ideal solution. Besides, I’d much rather my fuel dollars go to the Midwest than the Middle East…

/end rant.

So, how ’bout those Pistons?

Canadian politics are so boring compared to US politics. But at least we have the Raptors! Awwww yeah!

I despise what Bill D has done and how he’s gone about it in many regards over the years, think he’s a basically a liability, and wish he’d just go away so someone who actually has a set of practical, cogent business and basketball philosophies can apply some informed and well thought out guidance to the organization.

Instead of engaging in petty meddling that costs us opportunities, as he has.

So, he doesn’t think much of Flip Saunders, eh? Well that’s just great. Maybe he should have though twice before alienating Larry Brown and giving him reasons to look elsewhere for a job, and then personally lobbying to get Flip hired.

Bill Davidson is anything but a class act, he’s an obnoxious codger who can’t leave well enough alone and lets his personal feelings interfere with his business judgement, to the lasting and continued detriment of the organization.

g – Who do you want to own the team? Paul Allen? Mark Cuban? Clay Bennett? Davidson isn’t a saint but he is one of the most successful sports team owners anywhere — on and off the court. It’s a bit crazy to suggest that Davidson has hurt the team business when the franchise value of the Pistons is 6th best in the NBA. The Pistons are worth the same as the Bulls in a market that is less than half the size. That’s a neat trick. 7 straight 50 win seasons isn’t half bad either.

As for the “Guardian Way”. It does make sense when you read it, and probably works well in some parts of the company. I had the misfortune of working in the original plant for over a year and we were treated like CRAP. Try being covered head to toe in kevlar and packing glass off a line for 8 hours without a break. The management they had on the level of workers didn’t give a damn about us. All that mattered was the production, and you didn’t want to complain to anyone in the office because it would just cause shit to rain down on you hard. Safety violations were taken care of fairly well, except if it caused any sort of slowdown in production. I am a big pistons and Mr. D. fan, but I really wonder if he realizes how the “Guardian Way” has been abused by supervisors at the lower levels of the company.

I wonder if we can find a Jason Kidd for Devin Harris-type deal out there…

That’s kind of like that one election where the dead guy got more votes than several living candidates.

i like this forum a whole lot more when the topic sticks to basketball and Not politics. if i wanted to read someone’s unsolicited political opinion, i’d read the comments at freep.com.

same with Mr. Davidson. he’s a great businessman, but i could care less what his political opinions are. i want to be able to cheer for him and his team without remembering who he voted for in the presidental race.

Maybe i am crazy, but I kinda like this trade :

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/features/traderesult?players=63~294~2986~165~990~3190~308&teams=9~18~8~8~8~8~18&te=&cash=

Are you a Golden State fan? If so, then I can see why you like this trade. Belinelli is an absolute bust who won’t earn another contract. Balkman took a major step back last year, which is not what you want in a young trade prospect. Curry gives us a big man who can’t defend when we alread have big men who can. Crawford is a career 40% shooter who shoots A LOT.

But yeah, I can see why GS would go for a Billups for Harrington and Belinelli deal.

The NBA offseason.
Where yawning happens.

When does the NBA change its motto, anyway?

There’s only so much Pistons talk I can take. Things like Donaghy and Bennett and the Sonics . . . they get in the way. I just can’t sweep that away. Those things directly affect my Piston intake.

Omg i am crazy :/

“Omg i am crazy :/”

Nah, you’re just reading too much Bill Simmons.

Take a deep breath and step away from the trade machine…

Ints: Yes, you’re crazy if you take kevin’s opinion as gospel. Let me give you a polite, thought-out perspective including the actual experience of having seen Belinelli play. It’s absolutely plausible that Belinelli is already a bust. It’s also absolutely fact that the guy got no run at SG (he’s 6’5 and he’s not a natural point at all) in the logjam that was Golden State’s 2 position last year. Kevin’s choice to gloss over that fact is completely asinine. The guy is not some Euro who came over at 28 (ie: Scola) that the DBB community will decry “has no more room for improvement” (disagree re: Scola), but Belinelli is 22 and 6’5. He could be an excellent shooting guard because the guy can score in bunches. Will it translate? Who knows, that’s the risk involved in this trade.

Jettisoning Rip and Chauncey means we need replacements at the 1 and 2. Presumably that’s filled by Stuckey at the 1 and Crawford at the 2. In getting rid of Hamilton for Crawford, you’re exchanging a guy who basically does 18-25/night routinely for a guy who’s more likely to drop 35 and then 6 than 18-25 nightly. Is that a good thing? I’m not sure it’s so much good or bad, but lateral. Also, in taking on Crawford and Belinelli, you get no REAL PG (even in a backup capacity) in return for Chauncey, so that’s a big risk unless you can woo Dixon back or take 7 years off Lindsey’s career. Yes, NY had been playing Crawford at point, but NY also went 23-59 and Donnie Walsh just signed Duhon for a reason.

As for Balkman and Curry, well, Balkman is no risk, so I don’t know what Kevin is worrying about, but I do agree that he’s not much to hang your hopes on. As for Curry, he’s a big body, one that can score in the post at a high shooting percentage (which is great and something we have a shortage of, Sheed!!!), but also one whose other skills are shaky, and so I question our overall use of him. Though, not giving any bigs up for a guy who is bulky enough to play minutes at center solely in the paint (maybe woefully though), is a nice perk.

That all being said, great trade for New York and an even better trade for Golden State. It’s not a bad trade for us (honestly, probably lateral), it’s just that when all trades aren’t created equal, this seems like we’re coming up third in this three-horse deal. That’s not very Joe-like, I think. As for the trade machine, I think it’s pretty flawed right now since it’s in contract limbo, so I’ve given up on using it (though it seems like the money being shifted is quite even among the three teams) for now.

“Kevin’s choice to gloss over that fact is completely asinine. "

I didn’t say he was a bust because he got no playing time. I said he was a bust because he shot worse than 40% when he is supposedly a shooter. YOu could cite a small sample size, but his production (or lack thereof) in Europe foretold his flop status in the NBA.

It is, of course, possible that he will buck the trend he has established. It’s just extremely unlikely.

“In getting rid of Hamilton for Crawford, you’re exchanging a guy who basically does 18-25/night routinely for a guy who’s more likely to drop 35 and then 6 than 18-25 nightly. "

Not really. Crawford only reached 30 six times last year, and scored in single digits only eight times. What you are really getting is someone who requires more shots to achieve the same offensive output. That’s a downgrade.

“Balkman is no risk,”

He is a risk if you are giving up assets for him, which is what happens in a trade.

“As for Curry, he’s a big body,”

Well, that’s certainly true.

“one that can score in the post at a high shooting percentage (which is great and something we have a shortage of, Sheed!!!), "

If you shoot 100 three pointers, and hit 36, you get 108 points. If you shoot 100 two pointers and hit 54, you get 108 points. I would also add the Sheed can make free throws. Jason Maxiell has a high shooting percentage, as does Amir Johnson. If that is how we are ranking players, simply give them more playing time.

Plus, all three of the aforementioned actually play defense, which Curry does not.

Given that we are trading two all-stars, I want more than two unproven (at any level) talents and two players who led their team to the lottery.

You are under no requirement to take my opinion as gospel. That would be asinine.

The boredom is piled deep when people are arguing the merits of acquiring Eddy Curry.

jesus christ, I’d like that trade too if I was a Knick fan. How about throwing in Marbury somehow, or getting the “Have Mr. Davidson pay us back for the salary we paid Steve Francis” selection picked also?

Christ almighty…

Belinelli could be a diamond in the rough kind of guy. He’s not the Jamario Moon/Luis Scola 28 year old guy out there no, but there’s also a reason why Marko Jaric has a job in this league too… someone thought he could stroke it enough to give him the MLE for whatever reason.

If Detroit acquires Eddie Curry, I don’t care if LeBron James/Dwyane Wade OR Chris Bosh PROMISED they’d sign in Detroit once Curry’s contract runs out, I wouldn’t watch Detroit until he’s gone. Curry is a joke of an NBA player… so much so that I laughed out loud in 07 when Detroit played in New York and they ran out a lineup of Kelvin Cato (300+ lbs), Curry (300+ lbs) and Malik Rose (near 300, like 280lbs) at the end of the game with some random Jerome James thrown in too…

kevin: I wouldn’t classify it as too small of a sample size, I’d say completely useless data instead. The selection of Belinelli by the Warriors in the first place reeks of conspicuity. I’d expect Belinelli to shoot horribly in their offense because he doesn’t fit. His handles thus far have proven to be quite bad, clearly transition basketball wouldn’t suit him at all. Half-court offense is what suits him. Does that sound more like Pistianity or Nellie-Ball? Gee, I wonder. The only point you have proven, is that you know absolutely nothing about Belinelli’s skill set (I would be wise to bet that you haven’t even seen him play) and yet still feel compelled to assert your unsubstantiated belief as fact despite your decrees of not conveying your thoughts as “gospel”.

Until Maxiell starts to play center nightly, I won’t even begin to address your (rather contradictory) point of whether he’s an efficient shooter as a big man (yet somehow shot worse than Curry this season and has a worse career and first three-year average Curry). I have no idea why you start talking about threes in that argument and then try to fit Maxiell and Amir in there. Either twos matter or they don’t, make up your mind.

I’m sorry that you took my Crawford point literally instead of to convey that his general trend is to be consistently inconsistent in terms of scoring output whereas Rip tends more often than not to score in the 18-25 range, a range where Crawford’s scoring output is much less frequently found.

Don’t even get me started on how you can somehow compare Amir’s career of Harlem Globetrotter minutes against Curry’s career of starting games the better part of every season since his second year in the league, ‘02-’03. Any impartial, insightful observer knows Amir has gotten more open, uncontested looks than plenty of players see in their entire careers. The comparison is apples to oranges.

Also, I don’t particularly like this trade, and I made that clear, but it has its interest-provoking points. We’d be trading away an aging, expensive backcourt to make way for a younger one with only one expensive piece and a possible half-court offensive stud in Belinelli. Balkman is collateral contract damage and whether he does anything or nothing in this scenario is wholly irrelevant. Personally, I would be happy to see us jettison a guy whose cousin wore a “Got Robbed” shirt with his picture on national TV despite Chauncey not even making the All-NBA First Team in that season. This is of course, if a better deal than the one presented came along. Granted I’m referring to the last two ECFs when I say this, but talk about a guy who is “all talk, no walk”. I would say good riddance to Mr. Playing Like There’s No Chip.

Kevin, you don’t have to be an asshole every time that someone suggests a trade you disagree to in principle. And in order for someone not to take your opinion as gospel, please present it respectfully instead of with your overwhelming sense of arrogance. You’re also better served not to be an asshole when your argument has so many holes it looks like five pounds of swiss cheese. Now Kevin, please close your mouth, turn around, and go to your room and think about what a jerk you’ve been to the DBB community when you quite frankly should have just shut up. K, thanks, bye.

“reeks of conspicuity” — OK, I’m impressed. I thought I had a decent vocabularly (and I’m a lawyer too), but I have no idea what that means. (Not trying to be a jerk, just digging the language).

TJ: conspicuity is essentially the act or presence of being conspicuous, ie: eyebrow-raising, attention-getting, red flag-worthy. Also, I’m not a lawyer, I only play one on DBB. Nah, it’s just a nickname I was given when I was a little kid by Mahorn at his basketball camp. For some asshole who thinks he’s me, but totally isn’t :P go here:

http://www.amazon.com/Lawyer-Boy-Case-Study-Growing/dp/031237335X

Reminds me of the 2000 season, when Pistons fans got excited because a free agent came to Detroit for a visit. Everyone thought he could mend the wound opened by Grant Hill’s departure.

That free agent? Tim Thomas.

Maggette? If he was willing to sacrifice for the team and a ship then I would welcome him.

I almost forgot how much I love D-town, until I visited this post.

I live in LA now with a bunch of a-holes who drive overpriced nazi-mobiles and claim that Ford and GM don’t make cars people want to buy.

Only in Detroit would someone refer to keiretsus on a b-ball site. Sauce1977, I love it. And I couldn’t agree more with you. GM and Ford would have loved to sell overpriced hybrids that can hold as much as my motorcycle, but they couldn’t get the electronics to do it. Maybe because electronics haven’t been produced in this country for the last 20 years, and companies like Toyota have the vertical integration to get all the electronics parts for itself.

I too have less respect for bill davidson after reading his comments. But I actually never thought too much of him — firing chuck daly after two championships, and larry brown after one championship and then game 7 of the finals. What did he get to replace those two legendary coaches – Ronnie Rothstein and Flip Saunders. Bill Davidson has only made two good moves in basketball — hiring Jack McCloskey and Joe D.

“Does that sound more like Pistianity or Nellie-Ball? "

He doesn’t really fit either. He’s a catch and shoot guy, which would make him a fit on an Orlando or a Phoenix, where the offense revolves around a big man in the middle. But moreso, he just isn’t that good. His playing style might explaining turnovers, or limited scoring opportunities, but not a lousy shooting percentage.

“yet still feel compelled to assert your unsubstantiated belief as fact”

I substantiated my beliefs with facts.

“(yet somehow shot worse than Curry this season and has a worse career and first three-year average Curry). "

His first three-year average is all of 8 tenths of a percent worse than Curry, but I digress. My point was to say that you should not simply look at FG% without examining 3-point percentage (among other things. My secondary point is that, even if this IS your criteria, we have two big men with approximately equivalent percentages. The two points do not contradict each other.

Also, Curry can’t play any damn defense. Does that sound like Pistianity or Nellie-Ball?

“I’m sorry that you took my Crawford point literally instead of to convey that his general trend is to be consistently inconsistent in terms of scoring "

I’m sorry you took my rebuttal literally. Nonetheless, what you said wasn’t true. Crawford is about as consistent of a scorer from game to game as Rip. Moreso, I took issue with your contention that this is a lateral trade.

@LawyerBoy:
I’m with you. I can give you (and others) a hint at how to look at Kevin S.’s posts. Just imagine that when he initially says something in stating his own opinion as fact, he really MEANS to include an “it is possible that” in that sentence.

“Belinelli is an absolute bust who won’t earn another contract.”

Or, like he said after being called out:

“It is, of course, possible that he will buck the trend he has established. It’s just extremely unlikely.”

Fuse the two together, you get:

“It is possible that Belinelli is an absolute bust who won’t earn another contract.”

If Kevin had phrased it that way, can you argue with that? Absolutely not. It is true that Belinelli could be an absolute bust who won’t earn another contract.

Rewind to my favorite Kevin S. talking point of all time:

“Yeah, Stuckey isn’t happening this season.”

Just add “Yeah, it is possible that Stuckey isn’t happening this season.”

And to this nonsense…

“Kevin, you don’t have to be an asshole every time that someone suggests a trade you disagree to in principle.”

I simply explained why I didn’t like it. I suppose the Golden St. comment might have been a bit harsh, but this is an NBA blog, not an HGTV blog. You need to calm down. It’s hard enough to justify spending time on a fan blog without having to respond to questions of character.

For crying out loud.

“Just imagine that when he initially says something in stating his own opinion as fact, he really MEANS to include an "it is possible that" in that sentence.”

That is absolutely the correct way to read any opinion writing, which a response to a blog post is, almost by definition (it is certainly not expository, technical, or prose). It is implied that this is my opinion.

When sportswriters wrote about Kevin Garnett, did they say “it is possible that Kevin Garnett will bring scoring, rebounding and defensive presence to the Boston Celtics.”?

Of course not. And, had Garnett busted his knee and provided none of those things, they would have been eating crow from those who had predicted otherwise. Same with the Stuckey comment.

That said, I will put money on Belinelli being a bust.

@Kevin S.:
“I simply explained why I didn’t like it.”

Dude, your tact is horrible. You state your opinion as fact and you employ blatant sarcasm when you disagree with someone. That is when you’re not knocking valuable commenters like Other Matt and Ric’s grammar (without correcting your own mistakes).

You make so many damn good points on DBB, and with a little tact many of us would read your comments without throwing up in our mouths a little. Like LB said, “you don’t have to be an asshole”.

I’m not the DBB police, and I’ve certainly not been an angel on here, but dude— BE NICE TO PEOPLE.

that knicks/warriors/pistons trade is hilarious…

how would giving up rip hamilton and chauncey billups and getting back 4 players in return help us on a team that is already incredibly deep?

It would only limit the amount of playing time that Amir, J-Max, and Stuckey will get next year…

“Dude, your tact is horrible.”

Agreed, and bowing out of all discussions related to my personality on this blog.

@Kevin S.:
“It is implied that this is my opinion.”

How come that doesn’t need to be inserted before anyone else’s opinion-based comments here on DBB?

“they would have been eating crow from those who had predicted otherwise.”

Apples to oranges, Kevin. Those sportswriters (paid sportswriters, btw) had 12 seasons of data to pull from to suggest what Garnett would bring to Boston. You, on the other hand (unpaid, just like me) had 2.5 months of injury for Stuckey to make a statement where your opinion was fact— and your opinion was wrong.

Hell, I’m wrong all the time, just ask my girlfriend. :)

“bowing out of all discussions related to my personality on this blog.”

I’d hate to see that, as you continuously make smart, well-referenced, engaging points here. You’re as red, white, and blue as anyone else here. Keep that in mind when you comment, and everyone will be happy.

“had 2.5 months of injury for Stuckey to make a statement where your opinion was fact– and your opinion was wrong.”

For the record, comments from the organization were vague, which usually means a player is going to be out for an extended period.

“For the record, comments from the organization were vague, which usually means a player is going to be out for an extended period.”

You stated your opinion as fact— and you were very wrong. Allow me to re-write it for you:

“I have a feeling Stuckey may not end up having an impact this season. The comments from the [pistons are] vague, which usually means a player is going to be out for an extended period.”

Here, I’ll respond:

“Good point, Kevin S. I’m a little worried myself, hopefully our top first round pick won’t be a wash this season…”

Jamal Crawford would be an all-star on a non-train wreck of a team. Put him in a real offense with a real point guard and he’ll explode.

LawyerBoy: Thanks for the explanation!