after watching kwame with the lakers the past few years, you guys are deluded. this guy is a joke. if the zen master can’t anything out of him, curry’s supposed to work a miracle? this is darko 2.0. or is that darko v.0.2?

http://www.82games.com/0708/07DET17D.HTM

Joe didn’t hit the panic button. He paid 5.4 million too much over the next two years for a comparable Theo Ratliff.

http://www.82games.com/0708/07DET17D.HTM

Joe didn’t lose his cool. He just paid 5.4 million too much over the next 2 years for the equivalent.

He also happened to overpay for an employee with a gigantic PR problem.

/into the forest, again and again and again and again

Just for clarity I want to opt out of being “you guys” if it in any way means I’m “for” Kwame Brown. Not only do I feel this is fair in light of my EXTREMELY NEGATIVE REACTION to this signing… (See video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zDhaXrKsN0&NR=1 ) BUT, also I am not Joe Dumars (just clearing that up).

Also, I want to dismiss the notion that Kwame Brown is in any way shape or form “Darko V 2.0”…

A) Darko is way younger
B) Darko has never quit on his team in a playoff series because he was mad at the nut-case PG. Darko has always had enough respect to remain seperate/apart/disinterested in his “playing” team-mates.
C) Darko has never been charged with rape… though he WILL admittedly rape your mother AND sister if you’re a bad referee….
D) Darko has way better hair

and of course finally……..

E) Darko IS NO LONGER A PISTON AND THUS A NEVER-ENDING SOURCE OF PERSONAL SHAME FOR MYSELF AS A FAN…. that’s Kwame’s job now.

weeps

Chris Kaman, 10295 mins., .530 TS%, 10.3 REB/36, 2.6 TO/36, 13.8 PER
Kwame Brown, 9562 mins., .521 TS%, 8.6 REB/36, 2.2 TO/36, 13.0 PER

Kwame Brown is never going to be the rebounder than a Kaman or Tyson Chandler is but I believe that having a big center on the court increases team rebounding numbers. I have a small amount of data to back that up, Phoenix had much better team rebounding after Shaq even though he replaced Marion with comparable rebounding numbers. ‘Sheed and McDyess are very light for NBA sized bigs and it’s got to be a grind for them to have to give up 50 pounds to the opposing center on so many nights. Kwame Brown is 90% of Chris Kaman at 40% of the price and the Pistons didn’t have to give anything up to get him. Tiny improvements in shot selection, basketball undestanding, and health aren’t out of the question for Brown playing in Detroit. If he improves As is, he’s about as good as Rick Mahorn. Is that so terrible? Where he was drafted and who he was traded for in the past means nothing to me. I love the deal and will be happy to root for Kwame Brown in Detroit.

I don’t mind this move, as long as there are more coming. As I watched the last seconds tick off of game six against Boston, my anger turned to optimism with the thought of off-season changes (IMO, it was already a season late for new blood). I don’t know if I can stomach another season of dominating the regular season only to implode in the playoffs.

This brings me back to Kwame, who is already the most productive Kwame in Detroit. If somebody told during those last seconds of game 6 that it’s O.K because we’re gonna sign Kwame Brown (I know, I know, new coach too), I would have shot Sam Adams out of my nose. I really, really, really hope there is more coming. For Christ Sakes, Houston just got Artest for a crappy 1st rnd pick, a washed up Bobby Jax, and can of Pringles!

I may be in the minority but I cringe at the thought of this group getting another shot.

I tried two other versions of this, but they didn’t take, I think. This third version is the finished product of my general distaste with this particular Kevin piece. If the others magically appear, then Kevin should feel impressed with the knowledge that I spent far too much time on a matured response. He should feel overjoyed to gaze upon this turd statue. I only hope it matches his in height, volume, and shine.

“To his credit, Brown is regarded as an above average defender, which takes some of the sting away off of his offensive deficiencies.”

- He’ll also be a retarded version of Ben Wallace and basically create a 4 on 5 without actually creating much of a 4 on 5 for the other team. In other words, bullshit.

“Statistically speaking, ages 26-28 are the sweet spot for big men.”

- I’m sure guys like Shawn Bradley had their sweet spots pass right on by without any improvement. This prime age passes most players by with little to no change. Nice wishful thinking.

“Combine this with Arnie Kander’s penchant for reviving ailing big men, and it seems probable that we will see the best Kwame Brown has to offer while he is in a Piston uniform.”

- I never knew Arnie Kander could make people more intelligent. GTFO!

“All things considered, then, this is a great business move.”

- Sure. Joe only payed 5.4 million too much for the role that Chris Webber and Theo Ratliff have supplied. Kwame also carries a national ridicule cloud that will very likely grow in strength while being in Detroit. This would have been considered a great business move by Charles Conaway.

/kevin’d

/running into the forest again and again and again and again

Sauce1977 – Are you happy with the Piston front line as is? What free agents would you like to sign and for how much? It’s pretty clear you don’t like Kwame Brown but you still have to fill 15 roster spots and Detroit only has 12 (now 13) players under contract. Who do you want on the team?

joejoejoe, sign anyone for next to nothing. That hole isn’t likely to be filled. It isn’t filled right now, and Davidson’s bank will get lifted for 8 million over 2 years.

Ben Wallace for G. Hill…Never heard of him
Chauncy Billups FA..Under achieving Journey man
Richard Hamilton for Stack..limited jump shooter
Rasheed Wallace FA..head case
Tayshaun prince Draft..late draft pick tooth pick

These analyses have surfaced regarding the current pistons roster at some point in their respective careers and deservingly so. It always amazes me how much winning and loosing can effect critical perceptions of a players attributes. Unless your a superstar, you have to win to get respect.
I’ve deliberately left out the questionable moves that haven’t worked out for the sake of my argument…though im sure many tangents from opposing viewpoints can, and will surface(I welcome those opinions if they’re constructive).

Being a Joe D optimist, I like this move. I compare it to Chauncy, Rip, and to a different but not lesser extent, ben. Kwame’s a former lottery pick who hasn’t had consistency or expierenced winning on the NBA level and, subsequently, hasn’t reached his “potential”- for arguments sake we’ll base potential on being drafted in the lottery. Rip/chauncey have become respected NBAers by contributing to a winning franchise. Ben Wallace was as “good” (good being a subjective term based on public opinion which, as i said above, in the case of the pistons, is less about the player and more about winning) as he was because of the team he played for embraced his strengths. I think Kwame can contribute to this team in a ben wallace fashion. He’ll stay in the post, wont expect many offensive touches, and will become a media darling if they WIN with him getting 5pt/10bd/2bk.

Kevin S…very good post, I think you said it best when you stated “All things considered, then, this is a great business move”.

I wouldn’t say Joe D is done looking for suitors, I just think the reality of what’s available now doesn’t offer many options. I exepct more opportunities to present themselves once the season gets going.

Speaking of bargains, Ron Artest for Bobby Jackson, Donte Greene, and first rounder? Wow.

kwame brown is like larry hughes, a black hole of basketball talent. able to suck the abilities out of others and drag them down to his crappy level. i’m praying that this is just a moderately attractive bargaining piece, setting up for a later trade that will move kwame and sheed for a true center who doesn’t suck.

i mean, i know when kendrick perkins was eating our lunch i started wishing that we had a 7 ft. tall mongoloid dump truck that could clog up the lane and get some rebounds. not it looks like we got everything except for the rebounds.

i realize the possibilities this sets up and a need it sort of fills, but that didn’t make me any less angry and nauseous when i saw that kwame brown was about to be a piston.

i have faith in joe. sometimes faith still means you end up confused and angry.

kwame f’n brown…

dammit…

The Celtics signed Patrick O’Bryant for $1.5M/year. Eduardo Najera signed with the Nets for $3M/year. Turiaf got $4.25M/year at Golden State. Diop got $6M/year with the Mavs. Only the O’Bryant deal is for two years or less. Joe Dumars got a player in Kwame Brown that fits a need at a fair price on a short contract. That’s being a good GM in my view.

Kwame had okay numbers in LA and DC, regardless of pay or status as a top pick. For what he currently is, an above-average defensive cog, it’s halfway to decent . . . but Kwame is proof that numbers lie, just like Nazr Mohammed. They’re two walking contradictions to John Hollinger’s neat little world of PERs and direct equation of value. They are reality’s smirking revenge.

Kwame is the Seventh Reich, what the whole hep world does for entertainment since George W. Bush won the war.

/run run run run, runaway

Kwame Brown is 90% of Chris Kaman>>

That is the funniest post I have ever read on this forum.

When was the last time that Brown was able to hit a duck from 50 yards.

You also forgot to mention that Brown basketball IQ is probably one of the lowest of all time of guys that have made $50 million in their NBA career.

The best thing that can come out of this signing is that it motivate Amir to work even harder and continue to elevate his game.

Detroit has two well known Kwame’s and by the end of this year it could be hard to tell them apart. LOL

I guess the end question is (with all else being equal) who would you rather have on the roster? Ratliff or Brown

Signing one basically precludes the other and if Amir gets beat out of minutes by either Ratliff or Brown, then there really is no arguement for not signing one of these guys because they might take minutes away from Amir.

The NBA is a shooting game in the reg season, but come playoffs it’s a defensive, slow the ball down (meaning big men get position) kinda game.

I also think alot of us at various times during the playoffs and perhasp during the reg season said to ourselves: I wish we just had some big dude who could go in and use up 6 fouls and play some physical b-ball, just for 5 or 10 minutes a game. Kwame may get labeled as soft, but his greatest strength is on the D end. Like the article says, he blows up this year and he’ll opt out. He doesn’t blow up and Joe D has a nice expiring contract at 4M to deal the following season.

As stated above, if Kwame takes Amir’s minutes, alot of us should think about jumping off the Amir bandwagon.

“When was the last time that Brown was able to hit a duck from 50 yards.”
What the hell?

That vomit/diarrhea video was choice.

Also:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONmhQJy1ViA

Oh My Dog
Oh Long John
Oh Long Johnson
Oh Don Piano
Why I Eyes Ya
All The Live Long Day

Hey fellas, long time no-post. I’ve been busy :\

I’m as excited to hear Kwame Brown’s name on our line-up as I am to know that we have Kwame Kilpatrick as our Mayor. How can two complete fucking losers share such a unique name? It’s baffling. I hate Kwame Brown, and have only made fun of Luke Walton more over the past few years. I hope Boobie D. knows something we don’t. At least we picked him up cheap.

I like it.

build the guys confidence up over the off season. send tay and amir to atlanta for j smith, start kwame and bring dyess in as 6th. he’s another project.. just like rip, chauncey and ben.

“Speaking of bargains, Ron Artest for Bobby Jackson, Donte Greene, and first rounder? Wow.”

The Kings are high on Greene, and that is a reasonable position. So basically, this is two first rounders and an expiring.

The Rockets are a good destination. They clearly needed another piece in order to be a contender, and they have little need for draft picks. Now John Hollinger has another excuse to project the Rockets to be the best team in the NBA like he does every year.

I do not particularly care for this Kwame deal, but I do not like that the term “basketball IQ” is being thrown around here as if it is some supportable, quantifiable measure of Brown’s talent or achievements. Unless someone has an actual basketball IQ test and the scores of Kwame/others in the league for comparison, it is just a buzz-word hyped by the media and often used incorrectly to justify calling a player terrible.

Clearly there are some observable characteristics of Brown’s game that might imply that he is not the “smartest” basketball player in the NBA, but it seems to me that all of this could be explained in a more coherent and factual way than simply bashing his imaginary quotient of basketball intelligence.

Bucks Chose Malik Allen Over Kwame Brown

Posted: 7/30/2008 3:11:00 AM
Source: Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel

Brown had a workout with the Bucks, but the team opted to sign veteran Malik Allen as a backup in the low post. Allen, who ended last season with the Dallas Mavericks, is familiar with Bucks coach Scott Skiles after playing two years under him in Chicago.

Click Here to see the full article.

http://blogs.jsonline.com/bucks/archive/2008/07/29/okafor-deal-reflects-bogut-s-new-pact.aspx

remember:

As long as Kwame Brown didn’t go to Duke,

he has a chance to make PG4L’s heart pitter patter

“could be explained in a more coherent and factual way than simply bashing his imaginary quotient of basketball intelligence.”

+1

Basketball IQ… how the hell do we know who has basketball IQ and who doesn’t?

How about, when you see a guy dribble the ball with his back to the basket and the ball bounces off of his foot and goes out of bounds, that means he’s not a good ball handler

Basketball IQ to me involves your position on the floor on both the offensive and defensive ends. When you have a guy who fails to swith on a man in a timely manner, pick up a body on the defensive glass, clogs the lane on the offense when someone is driving, and basically looking lost half the game. If the player has all the physical abilities to compete, but looks like he should be playing in college then he most likely has a low basketball IQ

Unbelievable – seems like if you keep repeating something over and over again, it doesn’t make it good. This is a terrible, terrible move by JoeD. Not only do our young bigs Maxiell and Amir need playing time, there are innumerable bigs out there better than Kwame Brown (Tractor Traylor, PJ Brown, anyone tall with a pulse etc etc etc). Do you remember see the Lakers crowd booing Kawme? (and they NEVER book the Lakers).

So basically we spent $8 million for a guy that we didn’t need, who is going to take playing time away from our promising big-men and who has a terrible work-ethic. Like I said, unbelievable.

Are there two Jims?

Malik Allen is worse than Kwame Brown. Who cares what the Bucks decided to do?

The Lakers booed Kobe Bryant plenty, so that’s a pretty useless barometer.

As far as taking away minutes, I don’t think that is the sort of thing you can complain about until it actually happens. You are assuming that Kwame can exhibit a poor work ethic AND earn minutes simultaneously. I think that is highly unlikely.

REASONS TO NOT COMPLETELY DESPISE THIS SIGNING:

1. We can see where the limits are for the idea that the Pistons locker room can help a player turn the corner. If it works for Kwame…

2. If ever there was a year for this guy to be motivated, it would be this one (playing for a bigger contract, trying to stop the laughter).

And to do that, he’ll have to EARN playing time over two former all-stars and two hungry young players.

Now, I’m sure everyone will agree that he may not have the mental faculties or basketball ability to do that. And, if that’s the case, Joe will have wasted 4-8mil dollars. But, I think it’s worth a gamble.

(Doesn’t seem so bad when I think about my baseball team spending 18mil on a guy that’s hitting .167 and strikes out EVERY SINGLE TIME).

Also, I think this move is completely independent of any trading.

Basketball IQ also has to do with knowing whether or not you have a foul to give, do you foul a guy in the first quarter only to end up having a “break away” called meaning FT’s & the ball as opposed to the 4th quarter and game situation, etc.

I’ll take Kwame over the Tractor right now. PJ is either retiring or re-signing with the Celts and I’ll say over and over: IF Kwame comes in and is playing more minutes than Amir or Max, does that not mean we’re getting more productoin on the floor? Sure to a certain extent we want to develop Amir, but I’ll leave it to Curry to decide at what point does that “growth opportunity” intersect with down-graded play on the court.

If Kwame is the stiff everyone says he is, Amir should have no problem getting court time. In the end, it’s about winning. It’s not like we’re trying to develop Kwame.

Jim:
“So basically we spent $8 million for a guy that we didn’t need, who is going to take playing time away from our promising big-men and who has a terrible work-ethic.”

If that’s true, what does that say about our promising big-men? I think… not very promising.

Oh, and I’m not sure about that Artest deal. I don’t anticipate good chemistry on the floor with McGrady, Artest and Yao (all of whom need to have the ball in their hands). They’re a more talented team, but not necessarily a better one.

QD…Yes, and we seem to have distinctly different view points on the Kwame signing.

New Jim, welcome to DBB since I believe this is your first post. Any chance you can alter your screen name a bit to avoid some confusion going forward? Thanks.

I’d be really surprised if Kwame took time away from the Amir/Max if he didn’t deserve it. The motto coming from Curry and Joe D seems to be the players who deserve the playing time will get it. Contract status doesn’t matter, what you’ve done in the past doesn’t matter, it’s all about what you are doing now. If Kwame is taking time away from those guys then that’s a good problem to have because it means he’s playing very well.

I don’t despise this deal, I get the value argument, but I would love to hear how a guy who couldn’t beat out Jason Collins for playing time is going to get time on a team where someone who was actually effective for another team last year (Nazr) couldn’t.

I’ve also got to say that the “if Amir can’t make it over Kwame, Amir blows” argument seems pretty crazy to me too. If Kwame’s so bad that he’s not going to be competitive for minutes over Amir or Max, how can we justify blowing most of our MLE on him instead of someone who can crack our rotation?? The argument that he can contribute while not taking minutes from Max and Amir is totally illogical.

My problem is that if Kwame Brown wasn’t brought to take minutes from Maxiell and Amir, what was the point of this signing? What is the point of paying someone $8 million to be the #5 big man? What about Theo Ratliff? And what about our #1 pick DJ White?

The $4 million/yr could have been far better spent than on acquiring Kwame Brown (how about Keyon Dooling to back up Billups and Rip? How about trying to see if we could get JR Smith for the entire midlevel?)

And to the commenter who said that the Lakers booing doesn’t indicate quality of play, it does – the Laker fans booed Kobe b/c of his interest in leaving the Lakers, not b/c he sucked as a basketball player, which is the sole reason why they booed Kwame Brown.

And thanks for the welcome to DBB!

Please forget what I said about DJ White, I forgot he was traded…

@New Jim:
Old Jim is right, could you alter your name a bit so we can tell you two apart? Instead of just “Jim”, say add your last name initial, or something else? That’s be totally helpful, otherwise we’ll all be scratching our heads.

And yes, welcome!!

(This is Old Jim)

“The $4 million/yr could have been far better spent than on acquiring Kwame Brown (how about Keyon Dooling to back up Billups and Rip? How about trying to see if we could get JR Smith for the entire midlevel?)”

So it doesn’t make sense to have Kwame be our 5th big man, but it makes sense to have Keyon Dooling be our 5th guard and 3rd string pg?

Bulls-Deng. Six years. 71mil.

Great quote from Yao Ming:

For some reason, I like (Artest), because in the games we play against him, I hate him.

Name Fight!

(Sorry, couldn’t resist.)

PS Boney, you mean Kwame ISN’T from Duke? Then I take back everything negative I said about him. Maybe he’ll even be better than Christian Signature Move Layup some day….. naw

PistonsGirl4Life,

Thanks for the comment at MOAB, first off.

Secondly,

I prefer sugar on my cornflakes.

Regards,
Boney, and everyone else that eats cornflakes.

Hahah, no worries (that line about Russian video rights is one of my favorites around the office fwiw)….

I was just up late and tired of yelling about Kwame Brown so I figured I’d yell about a reality TV show I’ve never seen.

Sameolesameole………….

Kevin, did I write this? This is exactly what I’ve been trying to say. Thanks for doing it effectively. While I don’t agree with the assessment that this is “a good bargain”, you nailed everything else. Especially my concern with finding minutes for the young bigs.

Boney, imagine the posts PG4L would have spewed on here during the “maybe Corey Maggette will come here because his wife is from Michigan” era of this off-season.

That Yao quote is amazing. And welcome, New Jim!

I’m just glad PG4L didn’t see me yearning for Maggette

Somehow I missed this:

“Kwame is the Seventh Reich, what the whole hep world does for entertainment since George W. Bush won the war.”

Sauce : +++++++++++

Also, I’d be prepared to trade him in for 2 boxes of amyls, a nekkid photo of Al Davis on a Vincent Black Shadow and a monster 300 LB Samoan attorney.

Shinon, Memphis wasn’t trying to field a competitive team. It doesn’t make sense to assess a player’s value when his team clearly prioritized minutes for players in their future over everything else.

Agreed with Rockoba on basketball IQ. It’s a copout argument that is meaningless as a standalone criticism. There are a lot of legitimate things you can point to (gets a lot of offensive fouls because he doesn’t use his bulk well, doesn’t make great decisions with the ball leading to passing turnovers), but saying he has low basketball IQ and then saying “hur hur he bounced the ball off his foot” is not a worthwhile argument.

I’m fairly pessimistic about this deal. This isn’t comparable with Rip, Chauncey, or Ben. Rip showed talent as a scorer, Billups actually played well for the Wolves before he was snagged, and Ben was a great per minute rebounder with a lot of defensive skill. Kwame’s become a good post defender but does not really excel at anything else. His rebounding is fairly poor for a player his size, and he is not a good help defender (poor rate of blocks and poor awareness of other players).

I’m not saying he can’t improve, and anyone who says so is being ridiculous, but there are very few cases where a big overcame lackluster play and then became productive at age 26 or up. One is Erick Dampier, who surprised everyone and became a leading rebounder and a superior finisher (where previously he was awful) at age 28. He’s regressed but has had fairly solid production since. He had similar criticisms about his hands early on as well, but he put in a lot of work in weight training to get to where he is. To some extent, Jeff Foster also became a useful player at 27 or so, but he is known as a hard worker, and he had always been a great rebounder. He hit the offensive boards hard and got a bunch of tip-ins, and he became an asset offensively. These two have mostly been exceptions, and they are both players known for having pretty strong work ethics. It’s possible that Kwame will work hard on his game this year since he’s playing for another contract, but I think history is working against him.

@PG4L and Sauce:
“A drug person can learn to cope with seeing a dead Kwame Brown crawling up their leg with a knife in his teeth, but no one should be asked to handle this trade.”

“One of God’s own prototypes— a low powered mutant never fit for the number one pick. Too lame to play, too rare to die.”

“…i started wishing that we had a 7 ft. tall mongoloid dump truck that could clog up the lane and get some rebounds. now it looks like we got everything except for the rebounds.”

ROFL

“This isn’t comparable with Rip, Chauncey, or Ben. Rip showed talent as a scorer, Billups actually played well for the Wolves before he was snagged, and Ben was a great per minute rebounder with a lot of defensive skill. "

I agree with this. That said, Chauncey’s signing was accompanied byt the announcement that he would start. We traded Stackhouse for Rip, and Ben Wallace was expected to contribute big right away.

If Kwame merely posts a PER of 13-14 or so and plays solid defense, he’ll be among the better backups in the league at any position. Given that this result is well within the range of possibility, I can’t get too down on this signing.

The other thing working against him is work ethic. Billups was willing to remodel his game according to Larry Brown’s wishes, Rip has a well-known training regimen, and Ben was a gym rat. Kwame came into training camps out of shape. If he’s going to break out here, he’s going to have show a lot more work and care about his game than he’s shown so far. Kurt’s post in the other topic talking about how he is essentially a happy-go-lucky guy that isn’t passionate about basketball doesn’t bolster my faith that he’ll make big strides with us.