So, would it now be that Billups is more likely to be traded rather than Sheed? I still think he is of use to the Pistons, does anyone seriously think Stuckey is ready to be exposed this early? I hope Joe only pulls the trigger on a super-duper deal if it means losing Billups.

Just to clarify my stance on Stuckey:
I love the kid, I just don’t want to see him drown because he was thrown into the deep end too soon.

If we’re operating under the theory that Billups is the core 4 who’s “most” on the block (fine by me), here are the teams I think are coveting a PG of Billups’ caliber right now and why. It’s not a list of teams that necessarily make good trading partners, just parties I imagine would be interested:

Portland – No secret I (among other DBBers) love this team, but Steve Blake as the starting PG doesn’t likely breakthrough in the West. Chauncey at PG would be three-year stability (who in their right mind would exercise the option on Chauncey’s 4th year anyway?) and add instant credibility at their only position lacking credibility/depth while Jerryd Bayless and/or Sergio Rodriguez is groomed for the future. It strikes me as the perfect destination.

Golden State – Seriously, who is this team’s primary point guard? Monta Ellis? Don’t get me wrong, I like him a lot as a player, but he’s no more a PG than Rip is. And in case I have to spell out what I’m saying, I don’t think much of Rip as a point guard.

Orlando – I think I could be stretching here but Nelson would be far more respectable off the bench and Chauncey gives them ridiculous size, an area which he and subsequently Stuck exposed this postseason.

Indiana – Is Jarrett Jack a good NBA starter? In a word: No. Perhaps Indiana is in a pickle though, with Tinsley’s albatross of a contract and a team that looks destined for the lottery for a while. This is likely the most ultimate of stretches in terms of purely interest.

Miami – Marion didn’t opt-out, and if Zo somehow recovers to play again and Wade stays healthy they no longer look like a laughingstock to me. Can Chris Quinn run this team or do they find someone else through free agency (a re-signed Jason Williams or some free agent like Childress, Telfair, etc.) to give them a respectable point? From those options, I doubt it big time. Chauncey? Hmmm…

Denver – Can they get a traditional point guard and put Iverson at SG? Do they even want to? Do they have wide eyes for the hometown boy? I know Woody Paige does. I also know that they have a lot of pieces I’d be thrilled for Detroit to get their hands on if Denver want Billups.

Minnesota – They simply need everything, but they aren’t a destination I don’t think, really.

Houston – They could use a PG who is still playing at a level that makes him comfortably top 10 in the league.

Anyone think I missed a team or put a team that’s ridiculous on the list? Anyone think I wasted a bunch of time? :)

All my trade proposals are meant to create discussions (Sheed for Eddy Curry/Wilson Chandler, trading for T-Mac). They are not necessarily trades I would do but hopefully spark intelligent discussions on what the Pistons do and don’t need. That being said…

YET ANOTHER PURE CONJECTURE TRADE PROPOSAL

Tayshaun, Stuckey, Amir and a first round pick for Lebron James.

Obviously this would never happen because Cleveland would never trade Lebron to Detroit. But, it brings up the questions: Should Cleveland trade Lebron (assuming he doesn’t have a no trade clause) is they are sure he’s going to leave for Brooklyn? Is it worth it for a team to trade the future for two years of his services?

Would a lineup of Chauncey, Rip, Lebron, Dyess and Sheed be guaranteed a championship?

The top 4 teams in the Eastern Conference had a .552 winning percentage vs. .500+ opponents. The top 4 teams in the Western Conference had a winning percentage of .556 vs. .500+ opponents. I think a LOT of the “the West is better” came from the Western Conference having a more competitive playoff race that eliminated any coasting against bad teams. Watching the playoffs the basketball didn’t look any better out west.

Anyone here thing Sebastian Telfair would make a good 3rd point guard? Telfair is now an unrestricted FA and had a 3-to-1 A/T ratio in big minutes for Minnesota. Maybe in a more limited role he can improve his FG% too. He’s still only 23 years old.

Telfair could actually make a nice #2 PG. And maybe being in a more stable veteran environment would help.

I’ve been pushing the Aldridge/Billups stuff for Portland.
And the Ellis/Billups stuff for Golden State. (Maggette?)

Maybe i can come up with some other crap today.

oh, the Maggette reference in my previous post was regarding getting a 5 year 50 million contract…. when they already have Ellis and Jacko.

Not trying to infer we should trade FOR Maggette.

and i think i originally mentioned Rip to Portland for Aldridge, but maybe Billups makes more sense… I just like having Rip in Rip City. And Roy as Portland’s facilitator.

I think New York would definitely also be interested in Billups. I see that being one of the first changes that Donnie Walsh tries to make in NY, bringing in a point guard who is a better fit for that style. And color me crazy, but I don’t think Randolph or Curry are exactly what D’Antoni is looking for in his big men. I don’t see anything in NY we want, but I definitely think they’d be interested in Chauncey.

I can’t believe for the life of me that Dumars would trade Billups.

There are a ton of reasons for not trading Billups starting with the fact that Stuckey is not ready to start at the PG position for an NBA playoff team.

People including most Detroit writers fell in love with Stuckey during the playoffs last year, getting sucked into the ESPN hype. ESPN never hypes Pistons players, so if they are hyping Stuckey he must be special.

1. As of the last game of last year he had no outside shot
2. His mid-range game still needs a lot of work
3. His decision making in reading defenses needs significant improvement which will only come with experience, probably about 2 or more years worth
4. His defense still needs work

We trade Billups and who is going to be the backup point guard when Stuckey goes out. Rip? W. Bynum?. Heck, why not bring back Mateen?

Trade Billups for a PG. Wny? That makes no sense at all. Billups is still one of the most productive and best PGs in the league. I was amazed at how well he played in the playoffs after his injury.

Dumars grew up in the Pistons organization with the Bad Boys and arguably the best 3 guard rotation in NBA history. He has been trying to find a 3rd guard to go along with Billups and Hamilton ever since they have been together. He now has one and I can not see him trading Billups nor starting Stuckey.

I seem to remember the first couple of games against Philly when Reggie “frickin” Evans was putting up a double-double on us. Substitute Brand for Evans and we DEFINATELY don’t win in 6.

I think Philly just got better than Toronto. Jermaine O’Neal won’t last all season.

@Laughton – I think Stuckey is ready to be exposed, especially since it would likely mean we traded Billups for another quality player. The Celtics just won the championship with a second year pg who played 2 years of college ball. Rondo has the extra year of experience but USA basketball asked Stuckey to be the pg for the Select Team, while Rondo is an alternate.

@LawerBoy – I think you forgot that Indiana has TJ Ford now, so Jarret Jack would be the back up for them.

While Brand signing with the Sixers does make them a pretty dangerous team, it also opens the door for us to pursue a sign and trade for J. Smith. It’s still very unlikely to happen, but if the Clippers don’t try and sign him I don’t think any other team has the cap room to offer him a big contract. If Atlanta try’s to low ball him with an offer he might ask for a sign and trade.

yeah, Billups is awesome… but we gotta start thinking about the future and shaking things up. I think Stuckey has shown he has the confidence to play as much as needed. And to me it seems Dumars thinks of him as a starter, not a Vinnie Johnson. Obviously, Billups and Hamilton won’t be coming off the bench either.

something’s gotta give… eventually.

Alright, here we go… Arenas just named Billups as his top PG.

Billups/Prince for Caron Butler, Antonio Daniels, and Haywood. We could probably sign and trade Ratliff so Washington gets another big body.

Well, I was really wrong about Brand going to Philly. Though I’m not a clip fan, the guy opts out so they have more space, says go after Davis and they do…then he says (according to ESPN I heard last nite) that he’s always wanted to go to the eastern conf because they play slow ball. Well, that’s a nice way to say I’m takinig the money and I will get easier matchups in the eastern conf. Don’t get me wrong, take the money and run, run very fast. Just don’t BS us about it. sorry for the rant.

As for trading Billups: Portland seems to think Sergio is ready to step in I beleive. I don’t think Joe D. trades billups to within the conf unless he gets a blow my socks off kind of deal. I think Joe D. sits back, watches a number of teams basically outbid themselves for the remaining FAs and then makes a move.

J. Hollinger in his chat wrap (I know, take it for what it’s worth) said the pistons won’t do anything until mid August when everything settles down and knowing what FAs are left. Let’s face it, it’s not like we HAVE to do anything. A full training camp & season for Stuck & Affalo, Amir coming into the fold and I’m really curious to see this Sharpe kid. Though a rook, he could become The Microwave #2.

According to ESPN, GS is offering Turiaff 4M/yr for 4 years (if I remember correctly). I think the Lakers will be hard pressed to match and who now becomes their energy guy off the bench. Somewhere in there is Memphis with Lowry, Conley and Jarvis Crittendon. Not exactly the cream of the crop, but they will have to let someone go via trade I think. It’s also been stated Posey wants to start somewhere, so unless there’s a trade he’s not coming to Det. There’s also no way Posey gets a 5 or 4 year deal from someone for the MLE, unless that team is nuts. J. Smith was in LA yesterday/today to talk to the clips…who now have a bunch of salary ~12-14M to throw his way. I just wonder about he and davis, and also the clips possibly offering Okafor a large offer sheet. If he gets signed away, any chance they work out a trade with the pistons for sheed (LB won’t be there more than 2 years)? I can’t see the hawks matching a large offer sheet to J. Smith and Childress if he gets an offer sheet. Let these guys throw money at what’s remaining out there and in the end you’ll have Boston, Det, and a couple of others who can offer a shot at a ‘chip, and go from there. Orlando also is set to sign Pietrus. I think it’s better him than maggette from our point of view.

Aaron N: don’t like the washington proposal. Like Butler but don’t want to give up two for one…haywood is a stiff.

Childress would be sweet if Atlanta has to give max to Josh Smith.

My understanding is that Portland is more ready for Rudy to step-in, not Sergio.

Aaron N: Thanks, it is Rudy.

Shinons: I’d be interested in David Lee from the Knicks… How about Marbury..lol

Jim: Absolutely right and duly noted, my bad. Scratch them from the lit. Good fact check, thanks.

Mike: I think if you substitute “Rondo” for “Stuckey” your 1-4 still fits perfectly. The Celts obviously won it all this year. I’m not saying there isn’t risk involved with putting it all on Stuckey, but don’t you agree that all those things could be said of Rondo as Jim already seemed to astutely allude to?

Aaron & Mark Butter: I’m pretty sure that at 6’6 Rudy Fernandez is much more of an SG than a PG, so I think he’d be stepping into more of a backup role for Roy (or time at the 3 in small ball), whereas the 6’3 Rodriguez made some passes last year in his limited time that dropped my jaw to the floor. I’m not just assigning positions because of their height, either. Rodriguez tended to run the offense when he was on the floor (and run it quite nicely, I feel), and all indications point to Fernandez being an SG. The guy shot 49% in the ACB last year, over 40% from three and over 90% from the line. That’s a pretty good shooter to have in your back pocket. I imagine he would do small wonders for Portland at the end of quarters if he draw fouls and/or just gets plain ol’ good looks.

Either way, it seems to me like Rude Dog is more likely to start at SG and move Roy to PG, rather than Sergio starting.
Sergio is awesome, but he was still less-favored than Blake last year…
Good news for Portland is that they have a solid 4 guard rotation.

I really think the Wizards ought to do something. Seems silly to tread water for 3rd straight season.

So the question is, what’s a better line-up for Portland?

Roy/Fernandez/Webster/Aldridge/Oden
with Sergio/Blake coming off the bench

OR

Billups/Roy/Webster/Maxiell/Oden
with Fernandez/Blake coming off the bench

Aldridge/Sergio/Przybilla to Detroit.

Aaron, I really like Caron Butler. He’s an all star but the other two guys are role players. We give up a top 5 point guard and a all-star ‘quality’(we all know he just missed the cut the last few all-star selections and he’s an Olympian, that says something) glue guy in Tay and all we get back is an all star small forward and 2 role players? I can’t vote for that one. I’m cool with all three of those players coming this way but not for that much going back to Washington. I do really like Caron Butler though. Can’t wait for something to happen. Myself, I am getting tired of speculating man.

Here’s my prediction:

Nothing happens and we return the same guys again.

The problem with the Pistons core guys is that none of them on their own are good enough to bring back anything that could be considered an upgrade. At best, we will just be exchanging unwanted parts with someone. But the problem with that is that the Pistons greatest strength is that their core guys have played together so long that everyone’s play/value is elevated because they play well as a group. If you swap out one or more of those pieces, you lose the Pistons’ greatest strength, and with that in mind, making a trade doesn’t make any sense.

Unless we have some serious inkling that Portland is trying to move Aldridge, which I have no earthly idea why they would with the growth they had last year and Oden coming in this year, why do we keep speculating about it? I jumped all over the Carmelo talk early on but that was based on the fact that we know Denver is frustrated and their team needs to do something big and the A.I.+ Carmelo experiment isn’t working. But I have no idea why we keep bringing up Aldridge. I love the guy. His future is very very very bright. But why in the world would Portland trade him without even seeing what damage he and Oden can cause together? Just seems like wasted discussion to me. Not attacking you Aaron, just saying lets try to do our part and help Joe D. with some realistic possibilities you know. He can’t do this alone, he needs our help :-) . If I sound a little snippy its only cause I want to see Joe do something. I know Cool Hand Luke is going to make us proud. I just feel like I’m waiting for Santa Clause.

E-Double

OK, I’ll resist feeding any further speculation. However, I think Butler is on par with Carmelo (plus a few years) and we offered Billups/Prince for Carmelo.

I’m really just throwing ideas out there, out of boredom.
Ideally, Billups and Prince stay and play up to their full potential through the whole playoffs. I would really HATE to see Prince go, personally.

CK,
“everyone’s play/value is elevated because they play well as a group”
How well the core four currently play as a group IS the debate.

Just since you asked… why would Aldridge be moved?

1. If they want to speed up the success by adding a veteran.
2. To create space for Oden offensively.
3. If Maxiell is a more ideal pairing with Oden.
4. He has an injury history, as does Oden and Roy. Risky to keep all 3?

OK, I’m done. I don’t mind the criticism, didn’t feel like an attack. Some say I’m a dreamer.

What do you think about trading Chauncey for Steven Jackson? I know there’s bad history there, but if we ignore that…We bring him off the bench behind Tay and Rip, like a 3 swingman rotation, pick up a backup pg somewhere(somewhere…) and gamble on Stuckey being the man. Power positions stay the same with Amir and Maxey getting more time.

GS would probably love it right? Now that they have a more consistent BDizzle and get rid of the Maggette/Jackson logjam.

Ok, what else if GS throwing in for C-Bills? It better be a whole lot more than Stephen Jackson. (Although he’s a productive player). C-Bills is an all-star and top 5 point guard. I better do some damn work now. :-) Damn, its good being the Boss. LOL.

LB: I had thought Rudy was a PG though 6’6" but I stand corrected.

As for the Caron Butler scenario, I’m not sure was Wash is thinking. Those 3 have basically been together 3 years and though they’ve been hit by injuries randomly, I just don’t see those 3 being a “big” 3 because if you have a big 3, I think at least one has to be a low post type player. I just don’t know why Wash would want to lock up those 3 for so long and not leave themselves some flexibility. I do say that Caron would bring some toughness.

As for Aldridge in a round-a-bout way swap involving Max, I think max brings a more nasty with him than Aldridge and I think Aldridge is a better fit for the 4 than 5, even though he’s 7’.

I still think Joe sits tight and lets everyone outbid themselves and then swoops in. I agree with CK that no one player from the pistons fetches more than he’s worth except for perhaps Sheed due to his contract. But, I don’t think Joe does something just to do something, but he will do something.

In 06, though a bitter pill to swallow I can say the heat beat us, 07 we were better than clev and this year we were at least as good as Bos, though I believe we were better. That means two out of the last 3 years we got to the conf finals and got beat by a team we should have beat. Whether it be coaching, players or something else, this group just ain’t getting it done, so why would we think next year will be different. Sure players have grown (Max, Stuck) but when the rotation shortens in the playoffs its the core on the floor who are coming up short…if being to 5 straight ECF is considered coming up short.

“So the question is, what’s a better line-up for Portland?

Roy/Fernandez/Webster/Aldridge/Oden
with Sergio/Blake coming off the bench"

Aarron N…Don’t forget that Portland also has Bayless as a guard for their rotation plus they have another good young pg overseas. It’s just silly how much young talent they have.

Living in the DC area I can tell you that out of the “Big 3”, Caron was the most untouchable last season. Any ideas of acquiring Butler and/or Haywood (no matter who we give up) should quickly be forgotten.

I wouldn’t mind seeing Aldridge in a Piston uniform, just so the Bulls fans can watch him put up 20/8 4 times per season while Tyrus Thomas toils on the bench. Unlikely that move will happen though.

It’ll be interesting to see what happens by the middle of August. I wouldn’t mind bringing back Delfino if Hayes rolls out of town. I don’t know why we’d keep Bynum on the 15 man roster if we all honestly believe Joe D. holds Alex Acker in such high regard.

Oh well… now that I’ve conceded my fight to LB commenting just doesn’t have the same zeal as it once did. I guess I can retire the thesaurus and my dictionary now. sigh

Starting Stuckey at this point is I believe premature. Very possibly next year if he continues to develop. He has a total of maybe 1,000 total NBA minutes maximum at point guard. In my opinion for a former college combo guard that is not enough to be starting at this point.

Next year year maybe and if not I would think by 2010-11 if he continues to develop.

But what is a bigger problem in trading Billups is who would back up Stuckey? Its not like Stuckey will play 48 minutes a game like Wilt did one year. Most likely as a starter 35 minutes a game.

So who is going to play those other 13 minutes or basically 1 quarter at the point guard?

Its not like quality point guards are hanging out in free agency.

If we are going to start Stuckey that means that we would need to find a good backup point guard for 12 or more minutes a game.

I don’t know of any of those available.

Juan Dixon? W. Bynum? Flip Murray? etc. Boston won a title last year with only one decent point guard, but they had 2 or maybe even 3 HOF guys on that squad.

If we trade Billups we are arguably trading our best player who is still an all-star. Are we going to get equal value for his $11 or so million dollar annual salary? I doubt it and we are not going to start paying the luxury tax.

We don’t even have another non-key player that we throw in to balance a deal.

Some say trade Billups and Prince for some one like McGrady so that we now have McGrady and Stuckey and some bum backing up the point instead of Billups, Prince and Stuckey.

No thank you.

I feel like in ‘05 the Heat were a better team than we were— D-Wade’s injury pretty much won the ECF for us. But in ‘06, we were a regular season beast— it was Sheed’s ankle in the playoffs that killed us— took us 7 to beat a FAR inferior Cleveland team, leaving us beat up and bloodied for the Miami series— and referee foul play be damned, I’ve never seen anybody shoot like D-Wade did that series (and the Finals). I mean, refs can send you to the free-throw line, but they can’t make the upside down circus garbage actually fall like Wade was doing. I remember him shooting banks from like 20 feet away, getting fouled (allegedly), AND MAKING THE BASKET. ALL THE TIME. But we should have played the Spurs again in ’07, no doubt, and complacency lost it for us. Same thing this year. How do you blow a 10 point lead, AT HOME, in the fourth quarter of a deciding ECF game?

Cute and paste www.okcmarshalls.com.

Interesting…

I think you have to win 50 games and a playoff round or two before you can be a “big three”.

Mike is right on with his assessment of Stuckey. If he were 19 or 20, I’d take it as a given that he would make another big leap. At 22, I’d rather see how he progresses before I give him the keys to the car. If we start him, and he shoots 40% again, we’re going to be several years away from a championship.

The NBA: Where Rigging Happens.

*David Stern Era

These C-Bill and Tay for T-Mac talks…

5 years ago I JUMP on this. Why? Because McGrady wasn’t a 50-game-a-season, permanently broken, back problem (the most vague injury in sports), perrennial disappointment yet. I love the guy. He’s on my 2K8 incredi-Pistons team. But we mortgage not only the future but the present with a move like that. When’s the last time Tay missed a game? He was probably wearing a Wildcat uni. And C-Bill is as tough as it gets (see ’08 ECF).

The only guys that I think are worth “blowing up” the core for are Melo (HOF talent once he’s surrounded with a winning organization, i.e. ours), and Josh Smith. I actually like Josh Smith better— one, he’s younger (marginally), and two he’s probably the most physically gifted b-ball player I’ve ever seen. He’s already a BEAST on D, and his offense, which is already approaching all-star level, is just going to get better. Can you imagine when this guy starts hitting 3’s with consistency? Best SF in the league. Hands down.

@COD: I’m guessing that’s just a domain squatter, otherwise the .net and .org versions would probably be snapped up. I know people have bought okcbarons.com and some other possible names, too.

We should still target Tmac if we can get him in a trade. Billups/Saimb for Tmac. Josh Smith would work too. we need front court help so I would be happy with Stuckey/Rip/Mcgrady/Sheed/Magloire with Prince/Mcdysse/Maxiell/Amir coming off bench. I would add a few more bench players as well.

Stuckey is NBA ready. Plus we need to open up the offense, because although Billups is good he cannot run a fast break to save his life. And we need easy points in transition when our jumpers arent going down.

Mike
“Its not like quality point guards are hanging out in free agency.”

I think back-up point guards are typically easy to find. Memphis has too many, so does Seattle, Portland…. etc. A few will be lying around come August.

However, I think i would be more comfortable moving Rip if we wanted to make starter’s minutes for Stuckey. That way the offense can still be in Billups’ hands.

@ Matt,but why is it linking with the NBA site? IDK. Maybe it’s nothing, but I just though it was interesting (even if it is off topic).

you can make any website you own jump automatically to another website…. using html.

@ aaron. Thanks. I had no idea.

Aaron

Yes there are other teams with good back up point guards, but they are not free agents and how do we get one. That would involve some three team trade and I just don’t see that happening.

I like Josh Smith’s game but one thing that we have to keep in mind is that his game on offense is like Howard’s dunks and only dunks. If you check out Smith’s Hot Spots you will see that in all areas of the court other than from within five feet of the basket he shoots under 30%. That is really awful. His free throw shooting is also nothing to right home about and his rebounding for a PF is not that grerat. He averaged only 8.5 rebounds per 36 minutes last year which is about the level that he has been at for the last 3 years.

Smith is incredibly exciting to watch on the court but he has some real significant limitations which greatly detract from what could otherwise be a great player.

Could he improve his shooting range, rebounding, free throw shooting and ball handling on the wing after 4 years in the league enough so that these things aren’t average at best or liabilities at worst.

Maybe yes and maybe no. Philly choose Brand and spending tens of millions more over Smith and Brand is about 7 years older and just had a major injury. So that makes me at least wonder how much is Smith really worth.

Fellas, I really like Philly’s starting five. Dalembert, Brand, Thad Young, Igey and Andre Miller. That’s a long athletic group right there. They still have no outside shooting though. Am I scared of them, hell no. But I have a respectful ‘concern’ for them now. If Igey or Miller had some range, they would be really a formidable group. I like the move for them. Is Brand worth $16M fresh of that major injury? I don’t know. But is he worth it once you put him in the mix with the rest of the scrappy bunch Philly has, then the answer is yes. Come on Joe, make us proud Cool-Hand-Luke. We can’t stand pat while the competition continues to improve. Lets go Pistons! Hell I forgot we have Amir, what the hell am I worried about. LOL. :-)

I was just pointing out that there is a surplus of back-up PGs out there… and once they start getting spread around evenly several will drop to FA. It’s an easy 13 minutes per game to fill.

FAs are Lvingston, Bones Barry, Arroyo, Stoudamire, J Williams, Telfair, Cassell, Pargo, Dooling, Tony ALlen, Delonte West…Earl Boykins…

And those are just the notables… If those guys sign it will squeeze out some others.

Josh Smith — 22 Years Old

17 ppg, 8 rpg, 3.5 apg, 3 bpg, 1.5 spg, 71% ft

Now if the general thinking is that players don’t peak until their late twenties or even thirty, that leaves him another 10 years (at least) of solid (read “incredible”) basketball. And food for thought, who was the last guy to have 2 bpg and 1.5 spg in the same season? Pretty sure it was freakishly athletic, no offensive game, career 50% ft shooter that helped the Pistons win a ’ship.

And Josh Smith is 22. Twenty. Two. Years. Old.

Even though Elton Brand had a devastating injury last year, I think he will bounce back strong. Meaning, I think Philly got drastically better and the East is taking the turn for the better. Which in turn means, The Pistons will need to keep improving because there will be competition coming.

Is there any chance we could get in on this thing that Philly did with the trading players who were already out of the rotation for cap space? That would be awesome. Also, I know he’s very much an unknown quantity, but if we’re looking to sign guys on the real chap and not spend much at all of the MLE, what about Mickael Gelabale? He’s a very solid defender, solid shooter and he couldn’t possibly command more than $2 million/year at absolute most. He’s really skinny, but I think he can play 2 or 3. Just floating the name out there.

Here’s a suggestion on what Bill Davidson should do. Take the money he gets from being under the luxury tax, include a big helping more of his own, and dump it into David Stern’s account. Buy 4-5 championships in a row. If you’re gonna be rigged, rig it your way.

LB: I think Gelabale blew his ACL and is rehabbing.

And I can’t beleive the Heat gave J. Jones a full 5yr/NLE deal. I didn’t realize he was that good or they’re that stupid.

From what I read the James Jones 5 year deal is 2 years guaranteed, and three allowing for “manuevering”.

Curious what the Pistons offered. Wonder if he was tempted by Detroit’s better money or better team. Wonder where this leaves FA Dorrell Wright…he’s restricted though.

MarkButter: Well played, did not know. That’s a shame too, that guy looked really good and pesky on D in the flashes I saw. He could’ve developed into a solid rotation player in the league probably specializing in defense. Bummer.

LB: Yeah, he impressed me with his athleticism too and he’s ability to be a good rotational player. I remember reading something about his knee and I’m 90% sure it was a blown ACL.

Chad Ford had a listing of available FAs, the Adonal Foyles, Mourning, Doleac and some others. He made the point that each of these guys were in the league last year and given 30 1st round pics and some steals in the second, some aren’t coming back.

Know this is off topic, but what does anyone think about B. jennings playing in Europe/overseas? I need to brag a bit here as my oldest scored 2100 on his SAT in March and being I’m over the hill and then some, exactly how hard is it to get a qualifying score on your SAT? I’m pretty sure it’s his SAT that kept him from being admitted to UA. This guy goes to AZ, plays against some good Pac 10 competition and perhaps (depending on the year he had) is a 1st round pick. I see this guy falling off the radar, if for no otheer reason some euro-guys aren’t going to put up with a cocky young American and then don’t pass him the ball (though he’s a point). I don’t know much about his ability, but would he have been a 1st rd pick this year? I think the guy is nuts.

LB: forgot to say thanks for the props

A healthy Gelabale would have be a perfect fit, talent wise.

RE: JENNINGS
I don’t see a guy of that caliber falling off the radar.
He’ll probably get a fair shake in Europe on a team that needs him.
I kind of like that he’s sticking it to the NCAA system, and at least he is going to get paid.

Can’t he play overseas for just one year?

I still feel we need to explore deals with ATL…..i really like J Smith but i think we could get Childress at a decent price. I think he would fit nicely considering Chauncey is traded.

I really dont like Gelabale for the Pistons. Id rather see minutes go to Afflalo, or Sharpe considering he would play the 2 or 3

he just doesnt feel tough enough to play for us

Gelabale doesnt feel like a piston to me….a little to brittle. Those minutes should go to the development of Afflalo and Sharpe condsidering he would play the 2 and 3

I’d be ok with throwing the max MLE at Childress for a few years, if ATL gives Josh Smith a ton of dough and can’t afford to keep them both.

I think a guy like Gelabale is good then, because he has experience, but not enough swager to demand/expect minutes should Afflalo and Sharpe be productive.

Not Gelabale specifically, but someone of his caliber.

The Pistons probably won’t waste the full MLE on a backup. The only scenario where I could see them using the full MLE on one player is if there’s a two for one trade and Joe sees a potential starter out there.

wait… is the max like 6.2 mill? I just didn’t check before mentioning giving it all to Childress.

I think he could be a potential starter after a 2 for 1.

I like childress after a trade not nec a MLE

I think Joe should look at a potential trade with Portland.

Maybe something like:

Chauncey
Sheed
FOR

Aldridge
LaFrentz
Pryzbilla
Fernandez

I really like what Aldridge does inside out and Fernandez could be great. I just find them to be a good trade partner with all of their youthful talent. Although, LaFrentz and Pryzbilla are toss ins, i think Pryzbilla could give us much better minutes than ratliff could. This would save us money in the long run with Chauncey (44 million remaining) and already having Stuckey in the wings. Portland becomes a contender not to mention they love sheed. Aldridge and Lafrentz have to be a constant in this trade but the other 2 could be Outlaw, or Rpdriguez, or Blake, or webster…..a lot to choose from

Id like to grab Posey most though….most right now.
i just really dont want to play against him again soon…..i think he’l choose boston or somewhere west first

even working bayless in would be nice….combo guards are so versatile……

i’ve exhaused my thoughts on dealing with Portland… and targeting Aldridge…

but no way they give us Rude Dog or Outlaw to even it out.

I’d prefer to keep rasheed as starting PF and use Aldridge for some deep post offense.

Doubt Portland is up for it… but Boston collected young assets and traded form savy vets to take them to the next level (yes, KG is a different ballpark). I think the odds of success are better in that situation than hoping your all of your young studs gel simultaneously. Fun to speculate… And portland needs to make room on their roster… and we have vacancies.

personally, I don’t think I can stand to watch Josh Childress shoot free throws for Detroit for the next 4-5 years…

but that’s just me.

He makes Joakim Noah look like Larry Bird at the free throw line

Rasheed’s and Rip’s contracts might be useful for Portland though…hmmmm

And what if they have to pay for Darius Miles if he playes elsewhere? yikes.

I say target Aldridge because Oden and Roy are the bigger tickets.

hmmm… Oden hasn’t proven anything yet, to be honest.

I say they make a deal next offseason when Aldridge’s contract is in need of discussion, but not this offseason

I like a lot of different scenarios with them and financially it could be benificial for both teams…..we could make them a significant contender and we could become younger without tampering with our roster too much considering that minutes will be availible for stuckey and Amir. Somewhere we have to give just for developmental purposes….

I dont think they would turn down chauncey and roy at the guards and Sheed and Oden inside with their array of contributers coming out their ass

Oden is Shaq/Duncan rolled into one. He’s still got more value having not played and obviously their level of success is riding on what he can do. They can make the playoffs with Aldridge, but they can make the Finals with Oden.

I don’t understand the talk about Aldridge. I’m confident that Amir is 35 minutes per game away from being as good or at least similar to Aldridge.

Amir aside, our frontcourt is stacked, save for a backup 5. I don’t see how making a trade for Aldridge in any iteration takes us from a ECF legacy to a championship team.

Portland may be stacked with talent and room for a trade, but I’m not certain they could or would offer us anything we need. I could be very wrong, I just think that Joe is likely looking for different types of options…

“Now if the general thinking is that players don’t peak until their late twenties or even thirty, that leaves him another 10 years (at least) of solid (read "incredible") basketball. "

28 is the absolute peak, but it depends on the number of years in the league. Very few players experience significant improvement after age 23 or so, and those players are usually large centers who began playing in their teenage years.

We should absolutely offer the full MLE to Childress. He was second in the league in true shooting percentage, with a number that rated in the top 40 in league history.

“And I can’t beleive the Heat gave J. Jones a full 5yr/NLE deal. I didn’t realize he was that good or they’re that stupid.”

Somewhere in between. Three point specialists tend to get overpaid. Hayes would come at half the cost.

“I don’t understand the talk about Aldridge. I’m confident that Amir is 35 minutes per game away from being as good or at least similar to Aldridge.”

Agreed.

Mike,
Aldridge can provide us with a young version of sheed….although presumptuous, seeing Amir and Aldridge up froint with McDyess and Maxiell coming off the bench(roles they are very comfortable with)seems to make sense offensively and defensively in the long run. It just feels more potent than before, more athletic….our guards are still going to pace the game and make the transition smooth.

and I agree Jones WAY overpaid, but they suck, so they pay more for junk. Childress would be an amazing pickup, a great asset

Is Oden really Shaq and Duncan rolled into one?

Przybilla dominated the Big Ten like Oden did and look at where he is.

I’m not trying to say that Oden isn’t potentially a special player but I think we all can say fairly that we wouldn’t trade a strength going off an assumption that we have someone that could fill the spot left open.

Oden has some maturing to do in the pro game. He’s not going to bust out of the gate with 18 and 7 a night, he’s only 20 and he’s been out of basketball for a year

I only want Childress is he absolutely blows out the fro every night next season

All i can say is the talent level in the east keeps rising and were getting older….the ECF isnt getting any easier. All i mean is Chaunceys 44 mil remaining is too much for not getting any better, we need to invest that money in some youth

i dont know if ive ever seen him w/o it

MP: You sure you meant “backup” 5? If you ask me, Sheed has always been an awesome 4 masquerading (poorly if I may say) as a 5. If we could have something where Sheed is starting at the 4 again (that puts Dice back on the bench, obviously) and then we can come out with all sorts of different defensive looks and make it so Sheed doesn’t have to be relegated to the post on offense, I’m thrilled.

People may look at me as crazy, but I kinda actually wish we still had Nazr and had never run him out of town from Day 1. I’m convinced the guy’s a legitimately serviceable (albeit slow-footed and foul-happy) big-man for the rotation. I think that if he had the benefit of playing with the squad we’ve constructed now (ie: Maxiell contributing more, Stuckey, Amir and Afflalo waiting in the wings for minutes), and we treated him respectfully instead of like a fall guy who could never replace Ben, he’d be worthwhile.

That being said, I’m well aware that Nazr is owed upwards of about $20 million over the next three seasons. I do NOT miss that price tag. But I do miss what he could’ve brought to the table for us.

Kevin S., I’ll have to respectfully disagree with you about players not getting significantly better after age 23. I think the 28 year old Jordan whips the 23 year old Jordan’s ass. I would say the same about Kobe. You guys have a ton of confidence in Amir. I think Aldridge is a beast waiting to burst out in the next year, maybe two and you guys are saying Amir is already where he is, he just needs minutes. Where can I buy some of the Amir cool-aid cause I haven’t been drinking enough. Not that I don’t think he has the potential to be a future stud. I just think Aldridge is potentially an All-Star this year and Amir may be 3 years from being an All-Star with consistent growth and plenty of playing time. Once again, I respectully disagree with some of my DBB brethren. If Portland trades Aldridge, they are idiots. If Oden fulfills his potential and Aldridge continues to grow, that tag-team duo will be completely kicking ass in the West in 2 years man. I’d love to have his as a Piston, I just think Portland would be crazy. Portland should just let their squad grow up together. Add some veteran role players to teach these guys the right way to do things, but they don’t need to let one of their young studs go to get a veteran star player.

LB, I’m going to have to look at you as crazy. Nazr isn’t the worst player in the history of the NBA, but he didn’t do much more than Theo Ratliff did for a quarter of the price.

Nazr is meant to be a bench guy who gives you 12 good minutes a game while your starter catches his breath. We expected him to replace Ben. We said all the right things and said we would have to replace Ben by committee, but the reality is we expected Nazr to give us more than he did and make us not miss Ben. Maybe consciously we didn’t literally expect him to be the defensive stud Ben was, but maybe sub-consciously we hoped he would make us not miss Ben. I’m just sayin…He’s not meant to be anybodies starter though. At least in my humble opinion.

maybe we should have just kept Okur

well, maybe he doesnt have the 3 ball, but he does have range….id like to keep my C around the hoop a little more though

Aldridge is great, and a potential all-star… but it’s not like we’d be sending over chop liver. With a functioning Oden, a top PG and cap space Portland is WCF caliber next season and for the next few seasons.

I’m just saying they’d have to think about it.

whoops, my comment got the royal treatment, outlined in white. fixed now. here’s that comment, now without the white outline goodness:

@Anthony J. Boggs:
"Aldridge can provide us with a young version of sheed"

I’d say they are two different types of players. Aldridge only scored one three pointer in all of this past season. Aldridge is much more of a Jermaine O’Neal type of player– who Amir is often compared to (and I agree). Funny enough, Aldrige can provide us with an older version of Amir… :)

@Kevin S. and others:
"We should absolutely offer the full MLE to Childress."

Totally agree.

@LB:
"You sure you meant "backup" 5″

Yep– assuming we keep Rasheed. If we move Rasheed, I’d love to get a nasty 5. You know how much I talk about Biedrins… I’d rather keep Sheed at the five and have Max or Amir start at the 4.

On a side note, the longer this off-season goes on, the more I’m feeling like we shouldn’t change a thing, other than a backup SF (childress, please) and a backup 5 (and i’m fine with ratliff there). I’m not sold on Afflalo as a backup 2, even though I love his defense, so I’d hope there would be a solution there. The only thing I’m thinking we should change is our rotations… less minutes to our starters, more development of our youth. Sure, our starters get older, but our youth continues to grow until the keys are ready to be handed over.

I hear ya Aaron. If I was a Portland fan I just wouldn’t want to see them give up 10 years of Aldridge (assuming contract extensions, etc, etc, etc) for 3 years of Billups. But don’t get me wrong, I’d love to have the guy.
@Mike P.
I just really don’t think we can get it done without some type of significant positive change. I personally don’t feel that growth from within is enough to get us there just yet. I’m ok with starting the season with the core and see what shakes out as the first half of the season gets going. But I think a move is necessary. I still want Carmelo for C-Bills and Prince myself. I know that puts a ton of pressure on Stuckey to start and be the only ball handler. He won’t have to Tay to have his back as far as ball handling is concerned. I just want someone who is a Beast man. I watched D-Wade, LBJ and the Big 3 (namely Pierce, then Garnett, Ray didn’t do a whole lot) kick our butts. I want someone who can stick it back to their asses and drop us 40 on any given night and just will us to victory. Either that or we have to go back to the 2004 Pistons defense and hunger (Boston seemed to have it). But the rules make it damn near impossible for the 2004 defense to be played anymore.

“I think the 28 year old Jordan whips the 23 year old Jordan’s ass. "

I don’t. The 23 year old Jordan averaged 33 ppg. The 28 year old Jordan had a MUCH better supporting cast, but the man himself was about the same player.

“I think Aldridge is a beast waiting to burst out in the next year, maybe two and you guys are saying Amir is already where he is, he just needs minutes.”

Correct. I think he’s a bit of a different player, but they are more similar than you think, production-wise. But I think Portland agrees with you, and has no interest in trading him.

As someone who has taken on the Clippers as a pet team since I moved to LA, I’m saddened to see Elton Brand leave.

He’s my favourite non-Piston player (Deron Williams a close second). Looks like I’m not getting that Clipper 10-pack this year.

E-Double…I’m thinking along the same lines as you. If we have the same squad (with a minor free agent addition) after next years trade deadline I don’t think we can win it all. The East is getting stronger this offseason while LA , New Orleans, Utah and a fully healthy Houston squad should be even better next year. If San Antonio’s big 3 is healthy you can’t discount them either.

If no changes are made the only way I could see us winning it all is if we get big improvements from Stuckey and one of the following 2 guys; Amir or Maxiell. Our bench would be much better but if we are finishing playoff games with the core group then I can’t see anything being different then the last 3 years.

I’m starting to think if we make a big move it’ll more likely happen closer to the trading deadline. The West is stacked, so if a couple quality teams aren’t performing up to expectations they may be more willing to make a deal. The 3 teams I’d keep an eye on are Phoenix, Denver, and Dallas. Phoenix and Dallas are getting older and may decline this year while Denver is just a mess. We know Joe D has some interest in Melo and Amare and I would think Dirk would interest him as well. They are all longshots, but I think it’s a possibility down the line.

WOW – a little stunned by this debate.

28 year jordan was a lot smarter… nevermind the numbers.

but taking the numbers into account Jordan did not shoot or make many 3s early on. He became a much better shooter. I think it’s an fairly easy argument that Prime Jordan was the superior player. Not to mention defense.

Thanks for the assist Aaron. Ok Kevin, the hell with Jordan, I have a 10 times better example. 26/27 year old Chauncey would murder 23 year old Chauncey. The latter Chauncey was finals MVP. The younger version was stumbling around the league trying to figure out how to wipe his ass. Now who would you take Kevin? Come on….be honest Bro!
The beauty is that a good player who’s in that 26, 27, 28 year age range still has all the physical abilities of the younger version, but has a better understanding of the game, is smarter, has probably developed his shot a little more (see Magic Johnson),so you have the best of both worlds. So that’s the only reason why I disagree with you on that one Kevin. I bet I can find one thing we can agree on. Do you want the Bad Boys to win the ’ship next year? :-)

I think Childress could be the answer to our backup SG/SF needs. He puts up a great percentage from the field, solid from 3 and solid from FT. He has averaged double digits in points every year.

Questionable shooting form but, if we got him for $5.8 mil, I can close my eyes when he’s at the free throw line.

@E-Double:
“I just really don’t think we can get it done without some type of significant positive change. I personally don’t feel that growth from within is enough to get us there just yet.”

My feeling about this is growing as the off-season goes on. I won’t argue with you, Jim or others, as I’ve shared that opinion with you guys since Joe initially announced that he will make big changes. As time goes on, I’m getting a little concerned about making a change other that a few role player tweaks.

“some type of significant positive change”

To start off this off-season, Joe made a very significant and positive change— he fired Flip and hired Michael Curry. However, we likely won’t know the impact this will have on this team until six or eight weeks into the season.

The knocks on our team for the last two seasons have been these: we’re complacent, we have entitlement issues, we only show up in some games, we don’t respect lesser competition. I think most DBBers will agree that we SHOULD have beaten Cleveland in 2007, and we SHOULD have played better against Boston. Why? We’ve got the talent, we’ve got the personnel, we’ve got the potential. I can’t think of a single Pistons fan that thought Cleveland was the better team in 2007…

You can really only blame a single player for their own poor play. When you have a team-wide problem, you blame the coach. After this year’s collapse, Joe D. pulled the plug on that problem. To fix it, he brought in a guy who, on paper, looks like the right guy to whip this team into shape.

Our roster ain’t perfect. We have a problem finding reliable talent behind our starting 3, we have a three who can’t balance offense and defense simultaneously, and we have a starting Center who plays like a finesse 4 on most possessions. In spite of these problems, we were the 2nd seed in the NBA and a coin toss for the Eastern Conference Championship, by most measurements.

I’m pretty confident that even with those issues, we had a championship team in 2007-08. This was ours for the taking. But at the worst times, our attitudes, rotations and plays were failing.

In my opinion, Michael Curry shows the promise to improve those failures. And any trade that means we move two of our starting five for one player carries as much risk to our identity as it does promise. We’re still winners, yet our greatest adversary has always been ourselves.

“And any trade that means we move two of our starting five for one player carries as much risk to our identity as it does promise.”

This is definitely true… my gut is telling me a change needs to be made to win it all, but I truly hope you are right Mike P and that I am wrong.

Also, I just saw this on Hoopsworld;

Pistons Seek a Swingman: The Pistons are in the process of finding a new swingman and are believed to be close to offer C.J. Miles of the Utah Jazz an offer sheet. Miles is yet another young, athletic player with a nice perimeter offensive game. He’s still only 21 years old and has shown flashes of potential in his limited playing time. He could fit in nicely with a Pistons squad hoping to increase their overall athleticism. The Pistons are also said to be interested in bringing back Carlos Delfino (restricted free agent in Toronto) and Walter Herrmann

@Jim:
re: C.J. Miles. I haven’t looked at the kid until now, and man— its pretty amazing what consistent PT did for his shooting:
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3960/career;ylt=AuouAjujLVVXFRGk6zxOvekvLYF

@Jim:
“my gut is telling me a change needs to be made to win it all”

If we can pull off moving one starter and Maxiell, I’d love to see it happen. Tay+Max for Josh Smith. Sheed and Max for Biedrins (and contract). Rip+Max for Ellis or Kevin Martin or Redd. If we can maintain 4 of our starting 5, I’m in. I don’t want Chauncey going anywhere personally.

(also, please note that I am not suggesting any of the above trades could ever happen, for example I think Sac would be out of its mind to let Kevin Martin walk, and I don’t see GS signing and trading Ellis. But still, my point is that a starter plus a sixth man might get us some value that would get us over the hump. otherwise, i’m leaning towards staying as we are and beginning the transition to a starting zoo crew)

“but taking the numbers into account Jordan did not shoot or make many 3s early on. He became a much better shooter. I think it’s an fairly easy argument that Prime Jordan was the superior player. Not to mention defense.”

He did not shoot as many threes, but he got to the line nearly twice as often. He was always known as a pretty good defender.

“The Pistons are in the process of finding a new swingman and are believed to be close to offer C.J. Miles of the Utah Jazz an offer sheet.”

I like it! At minimum, we get a three point threat off the bench. At best, we have a starting wing for the future. Utah has no need for him, but they have been pretty smart about their own talent. It might take a 3 for 10 type deal to pry him away, but I think he is worth that kind of risk.

Here’s a nice interview with C.J. Miles after one of his best games as a pro.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEoso6GhzW0

It looks like there is no room at the inn in Utah because of the Kyle Korver deal. He sounds like a Piston in the interviews I heard on YouTube — talking about floor burns and doing whatever the team needs.

More on C.J. Miles and the roster situation in Utah in this excellent and informative thread at RealGm. To sum up, Utah fans are worried about somebody (rhymes with Moe Who Mars) swooping in to take Miles for a good chunck of the MLE.

http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=819630&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

An excerpt:
RacerX – According to this [mlive.com story] the Pistons want CJ.
JStockLivesOn – **** that. For some reason, that article has made re-signing CJ Miles a priority for me… if just to spite the Pistons, who I have to admit I despise.

Note to Utah. Jordan pushed off and they didn’t call it! Bwahahaha.

I hope we can welcome C.J. Miles to Detroit! If somehow Corey Maggette’s wife can come with him so I get some return on the hour I wasted researching Imlay City and Puerto Rican women’s basketball, that would be good too.

@joejoejoe:
not sure if you didn’t see the news (or I just misread your comment), but Maggette has signed with Golden State…

looks like summer league can be watched online:

http://www.nba.com/summerleague2008/vsl_tvschedule08.html

Mike Payne – I did see that Maggette signed with Golden State. I was just goofing on myself for doing so much googling of Maggette’s Michigan born and raised wife.

@joejoejoe:
btw, I actually got a good laugh about that. If only I was good at Photoshop, I would have ’shopped Maggette in to a photo from good ole Imlay City, you know, for some laughs. :)

HoopsWorld is fanning the flames of the Tracy McGrady rumors:
http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_id=9413

I haven’t seen CJ Miles play much, but the Utah fans seem to be pretty high on him. The consensus seems to be that he’s at worst a rotation player in the league. For a 21 year old in limited playing time he put up pretty solid numbers. The Utah fans seem to think it would take a 3 yr./10 mil deal or more to get him away from Utah.

I like CJ Miles, in what I’ve seen so far. However, if he signs with the pistons and he hits a game winner in the Finals, seeing as how my wife is from Utah….I’m dead.

I’d like to see how the season pans out until Jan if Joe can’t get a big deal done this summer. Start Theo at the 5, bring Dyess off the bench along with Max & Amir, meaning Theo gets back up big man minutes even though he starting and I’d like to see what falls out. But I think in the end, Chauncey has to become more of a vocal leader and set the tone. I think since everyone really came together in 04, man that sounds like eons ago, he figures everyone knows his place within the offense/defense and is hesitant to get vocal. But good God, he was Finals MVP so I don’t know what the problem is.

On the other hand, I don’t want to see the pistons walking on pins & needles until the trade deadline either. Either Joe swaps somebody or he has a pow-wow and brings everything to the table.

Unfortunately, I think Mr. Big Shot is the primary member of the arrogant & complacent club. I just can’t get freaking Boston out of my damn head man. Those cats played last year as if terrorist had their families held hostage and demanded the Larry O’brien trophy as ransom. How I would love to see the Pistons play with that type of hunger again. Hope its not just a pipe dream. They played with the type of hunger the 2004-2005 Pistons did and how we played during that phenomenal 2006 regular season. Sorry but I just can’t give Flip the credit for the fire we played with in that 2006 regular season nor can I give Glen ‘Doc’ Rivers the credit for how hungry and fierce Boston looked this year. The Big 3 were just HUNGRY AS HELL for a ‘ship. Those guys hadn’t achieved great success even though they’ve had great careers and just seized the moment. I just can’t give their coach credit for that. I just can’t. I think great coaches do get a little extra out of their players and push them to their max (i.e. Larry Brown). I think Curry will be a good coach. I just don’t think he’s going to be able to all of a sudden turn the clock back and convince our vets that they are castaways with something to prove and put the chip back on their shoulders (like our championship squad). I pray he can but I’m not convinced and thats not an indictment against Curry at all. I’m indicting the vets. I personally think the ‘unfocused’ side of Sheed and Mr. Big Shot are the primary culprits myself. Just one Piston fans humble opinion.

E-Double: Ditto, but as you said, let’s hope we’re wrong.

MarkButter: Like 20 minutes/game as the starting 5 for Theo? I actually love it. I’m praying for us to have a 5 who restores normal court spacing and so Rasheed can go do his thing wherever he wants. It’s not like you need a huge impact at starting center to win an NBA championship, if the Spurs and Celtics have taught us anything. Remember, the Spurs won a title (2005, remember it Pistons fans?) starting and giving over 20 minutes per to some wretched scalawag named “Nazr”.

In retrospect it’s becoming quite interesting to me that Rasheed was the only one who showed up to Curry’s presser. If Curry is the ass-kicker, name-taker, why would Rasheed like him? I think the dynamic between Rasheed and Curry will be interesting to monitor.

As for CJ Miles, if the you’re spending a little over half of the mid-level (say $3 million the first year, 3.3 the next, 3.6 million the last of 3 years), why the hell not? It seems crazy to me not to, if Pietrus is going to get the whole midlevel. Really Orlando? Like you don’t have a history of overpaying guys who played on the West Coast … cough Rashard Lewis cough. It’s sorta falls in line with the theory of: you don’t get to save your first half timeouts for the second half if you don’t use ’em, so you may as well try to use ’em, ie: spend the money we have to spend, Joe! The other $2 million+ of the MLE still leaves us a good deal of flexibility in the event veterans pull a dine and dash mid to late season like PJ Brown, Cassell, Theo, etc. did last year.

I’d like to see us make an offer to Childress and an offer to Shaun Livingston who was just renounced by the Clippers.

I think most of us agree that Childress would be a great back-up to Tay for this year while Sharpe gets his legs, and if Livingston’s knee heals successfully (Arnie Kander FTW!), then can you imagine having Stuckey starting at PG and a 6’7" Livingston coming off the bench?

Again, even if they don’t trade Billups, Livingston could take a seat on the bench and act as 3rd PG on our team…

Even better would be the following line-up:

- Livingston
- Tayshaun
- Childress
- Amir
- Cheikh

AN ENTIRE TEAM OF SPIDER SALLEYS!!!!

Can someone explain the pros/cons of offering your whole MLE to one player? I don’t really understand the concept of an MLE…

James B.: A team is allowed to go over the cap with the mid-level exception in the amount of the AVERAGE NBA salary at the point which the cap is set. Therefore, with the average NBA salary around $5.6 million this season, that’s the amount of the MLE.

A great place to go for info on this that breaks it all down one by one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_Salary_Cap#Exceptions

Also, it depends on if your owner wants to fork over the dough and if it’s worth it to wrap ONE guy up pretty long term (as MLE contracts tend to be) for that amount of money, or you can spread the MLE over more than one player, so you sort of don’t put all your eggs in one basket and have much easier contracts to move if you so desire. It’s a lot easier to move Roger Mason’s (unofficial?) two-year/$3.7 million deal w/the Spurs than it is to move Pietrus’s five-year/approximate $30 million full MLE deal. Ya dig?

“Those cats played last year as if terrorist had their families held hostage and demanded the Larry O’brien trophy as ransom.”

And yet managed to let a 37 win team take them to seven. Boston won 66 games last season and had home court advantage. Beating us in six games is what you would expect to happen given the win differential between us. If the Celtics had been maniacally focused as you describe while we were as complacent as you describe, they would have swept.

If I knew nothing about this team except for their roster and regular season performance for the last five years, I would probably expect four EC finals appearances, two NBA finals appearances, and one championship.

We were not the best team the year we won the championship, and we probably were the best team two years ago when Miami won it. That could be an issue of complacency, but it could also simply be the way the cookie crumbles.

There is a curious dissonance going on here in that we believe our players have the talent to simply will themselves to a championship every year, but we also want to trade them for the Al Harringtons and the Chris Kamans of the world.

“Can someone explain the pros/cons of offering your whole MLE to one player? I don’t really understand the concept of an MLE…”

The pro is that only a team that is under the cap and, in the case of restricted free agents, the team holding the rights to the player can beat your offer. Everyone’s MLE is the same.

The con is that you are saddled with that players salary. Truth be told, most difference makers are offered more than the MLE either by their respective teams or on the free agent market. Signing a player to the MLE this year means you are less likely to be under the cap in subsequent years, and therefore unable to spend on the difference makers.

This means it is imperative to get a bargain at the MLE. Most GMs, under pressure to win now, view it as a sort of freebie. Given that 20 or so teams have the same exception, there is a lot of competition for the same talent pool, which causes teams to offer the full MLE to players who are obviously not worth it.

As such, using the MLE usually winds up as a disaster for teams.

LB: yeah, 20 min/game sounds about right. He stays fresh through out the year and it’s not like he’s been running up and down the court during the last several years due to injuries.

You got Dyess, Max & Amir coming in for he and Sheed. Assuming 15-20 for Theo & Sheed ~25-30 per nite leaves ~45-55 for the other 3 which works out to ~15-20 for each. As always it depends on the matchups but also allows Sheed to get into a groove rather than playing D against a 5 right off the bat, who is typically either low post or just plain bigger than Sheed. In a pinch, perhaps Max or Amir can play the 3…let me rephrase that..in a really tight pinch.

Unless it’s a great pickup, I don’t want Joe to use the full MLE on anyone person, becasue that usually implies a longer term deal. Ugh.

KevinS: I think that’s part of the problem with the pistons. They think they CAN will them selves the ‘chip in any one year. I think Curry can take on part of that, but we also need a Cassell type player to once in awhile get in players face…or cheerlead if that’s what it takes. There’s gotta be something more than in the past with Flip just calling a time out and saying, “C’mon guys….please”

Love the idea of extending Livingston an offer. WTF, why not. And I think he is originally from the mid-west, Chicago area, but not sure. And I think he’s also someone who comes with a chip on his shoulder. In 3 years a backcourt of Stuck and Livingston…oh my!! Assuming one or two guys pan out from this years draft, and you’ve got an athletic core of Stuck, Livingston, Amir, Max, Tay, Cheik (to block shots) and two of the 3 picks this year, not to mention who else gets picked up in the mean time. Certainly not Magic, Worthy and Scott on the break, but you’d get some runnin’ in.

Finally, anyone interested in throwing an invite to camp to Drew Nietzel of MSU. Haven’t seen or heard anything about him, but he strikes me as a heady player.

Personally I wouldn’t want Theo to play 20 minutes a night. For one, he’s injury prone and I can’t see him lasting him the whole year playing 20 minutes a night. For the majority of regular season games I would much rather give those minutes to Max and Amir to help their development. In some games, against teams with bigger front lines, Theo should definitely play and we’ll want to make sure he’s getting some minutes towards the end of the regular season so that he won’t be rusty in the playoffs. Otherwise, I think he should be our 5th big man.

Kevin, all I can do is smile at your response Bro. If you want to nit-pick like that, its fine man. So let me rephrase my comments. How about this “I’d sure like to see our beloved Pistons win another Championship like Miami, San Antonio and Boston have the last 3 seaons while us at DBB nation sat at home and wished it was our team playing in the championship round. I wonder what we may be able to do to copy the 66 wins and championship Boston won this year. Thatwould be great if we could win the title next year. Lets go Joe D., see if we can get back over the hump”. Is that more appropriate Kevin? I have noooooo problem with you disagreeing with any points, ideas or trades I throw out Kevin. But come on dude, you took everything I said and responded with basically saying Boston lost a few games along the way in the playoffs so they weren’t that focused or determined? I submit man. Whatever, you win Kevin. The referee has counted me out!!!

Pietrus is a legit 3 in this league. He is capable of shutting down opposing small forwards and shooting guards and he can shoot the 3.

I’d have taken him over Childress had things worked out that way.

You just have to laugh at Orlando… they’ve ruined their cap until Rashard Lewis’ contract runs out or until he is traded. Good luck trading him too…

Ok Kevin, I slipped back into the ring. One last thing; no I don’t think our guys should just be able to will themselves to a win. I think a team that’s just as talented as Boston and arguably more from top to bottom, have played togehter for 5 seasons now and been through 2 championship series together, and are very experienced and savy veterans who know how to win. I don’t desire to see them lose to a team thats not more talented (arguably, just as talented) and have only been together for one season and has a bafoon as a coach if you ask me. Don’t even get me started on losing to Cleveland last year. I can swollow the Miami loss. So based on all we bring to the table and a burning desire to win, Based on all that Kevin, I don’t think I’m wrong for thinking we could have (and should have won). Stevie Wonder could see that for the (let me temper my comments)vast majority of the regular season and playoffs, Boston played with reckless abandone and got the prize and unfortunately we didn’t. Oh shit, there’s another upper cut, I’ve been counted out again by the ref.

How much do people think Livingston will go for on the open market? Is he someone who we could pick up and still have a shot at Childress?

Do people ignore my moves because they are so unfathomably genius that there is no point in evaluating/nitpicking? I’m going to assume so.

I am awesome.

Boney: couldn’t agree more. Good thing the van andel or DeVoss (Amway) own the Magic. Can’t understand locking up that much. Plus, it ain’t like they’ve got a deep bench, or bench at all. One starter, even if it’s not Dwight, gets hurt and I think they’re lottery fodder.

James B.: I’ve got to imagine Livingston could go for anything from the Jarvis Hayes 2007-2008 treatment (ie: just over a million for one year), or he could get the full MLE (I’m looking at you point guard-less and scorned, Warriors) if some team is intent on having him. People forget that Darko fetched 3 years/$21 million from Memphis AFTER his dismal showings in Detroit and Orlando simply because the market was barren. Unfortunately for Livingston, sketchy point guards (Telfair, Jason Williams, Sam Cassell, Earl Boykins, Boobie Gibson etc.) aren’t at a shortage this off-season. Then again, PGs standing 6’7" aren’t exactly flooding the market either, even if they left leg never went through this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QTCBrefXso

Ouch at 1:51. Look out for a special appearance early in the vid by our favorite injury-milker from the Miami Heat. And also look out for some really graphic stuff.

*their left leg

E-double. If we are having a discussion about trading our starting core, I think it is worth examining the contention that the Pistons losses are the product of an attitude problem.

I will concede that we let our guard down, particularly in the 76ers series this year and the Cleveland 2nd round series two years ago. On the flip side, we beat the crap out of Orlando despite losing our best player for the last three games, and we played pretty even ball with a 66 win team.

Everyone talks about the Cleveland series last year because we let LeBron James go bananas in game five. But we had them against the wall in games three and four when they suddenly started raining contested 20 ft. jumpshots.

It’s fine to lament our lack of effort here or there, but if Joe D. wants to take a downgrade at a position in exchange for getting more hustle, he’s going to make a bad move.

I also think the Celtics are in for a major reality check next year. Teams played the big three so tight that it allowed players like Rondo (in particular) Perkins, Powe and Big Baby to have big nights. It also allowed them to run pick and rolls all night long. Once team’s get the joke, all the heart in the world isn’t going to nab that team a championship.

considering how delicate Livingston was BEFORE the leg injury it’s safe to assume that he’s likely going to be fighting an uphill battle. 3 years $21 million is way too much to offer a kid who has yet to play a full season.

the kid can ball, but his conditioning is questionable based on the minor injuries he’s gone through and add to it the leg injury

1 year, minimum contract – not worth it on a guy who could likely turn it around the last half of next season and command a Darko-ish payday and you don’t have Bird rights for him anyway. Not worth the risk if you’re trying to build a nucleus

James B.

I think that some team will drop the whole MLE on Livingston, which would make your scenario impossible. However, groupthink tends to take over in these situations, and if Livingston is available for a 3 for 10 type deal, he’s worth the risk.

Either way, we wouldn’t have the money leftover to nab Childress, who should command the MLE (and deserves a starting gig). Signing CJ Miles and Livingston would be a nice offseason for us, though.

I don’t know man… I don’t see how much you can get out of a guy who’s leg almost had to be amputated because of the damage done to it.

Homeboy is a stick figure man.. if he built up some muscle and some leg muscles, he wouldn’t have had that injury. These kids man… They don’t work out like the old timers do anymore. The one and done kids come in looking like spiders almost… all arms and legs, no meat on any bone.

Good points Kevin. Good points.

God that livingston fall is NASTY. I don’t think I actually saw it before.

I’m convinced Arnie Kander can bring him back.

I didn’t know that they were considering amputation.

I might have mentioned this once before, but I had the same injury that Andrew Bynum had, which was a less catastrophic version of what happened to Livingston.

I don’t think either guy will ever be the same again. My injury happened 5 years ago (playing baseball for a club team between my freshman and sophomore years of college), and I’ve never even been close to the same. My doctor was the team surgeon for the Cincinnati Bengals and he told me he’d never seen an injury quite like it. I managed to come back and “play” baseball again after about 2 and a half months. And by “play” I mean DH or stand at first base with my leg heavily braced and taped and me having no ability to do anything other than swing a bat and hilariously try to hobble to first base. I shut it down about 7 games later and never played again. Even playing beer league softball is a MAJOR risk because if I get that injury again, it’s MAJOR re-constructive knee surgery that requires a ridiculous amount of rehab.

I’ve not played pick-up basketball because trying to run/jump/move suddenly laterally is really hard and I’m hilariously slower than I used to be. It’s really a devastating knee injury and I can’t imagine that either Livingston or Bynum will ever be able to play at a high level again. It’s one of those things that once you blow your knee out in that way, it’s really easy for it to happen again. I wouldn’t give Livingston a dime and would be shocked if Bynum ever lived up to the potential he flashed earlier this year.

I think even Arnie Kander cringes when he watches that video…

Utah won’t let CJ go for half the MLE, but I’m thinking split the MLE between CJ and Livingston would absolutely be worth it. Not the full MLE to one or the other.

Otherwise, let Livingston try to come back with another team… He’s got talent, but to have absolutely everything blow out in his knee and come back to near 100% isn’t something you should expect and not something worth a full MLE.

I should clarify, since Livingston dislocated his knee and tore every ligament in his knee.

My injury was knee dislocation with a slight fracture of the kneecap (a piece chipped off and found its way into the joint), a torn MCL, cartilage tearing, tearing of all the soft tissue surrounding the kneecap, severe bone bruising (consistent with ACL tearing, though “miraculously”, doctors word not mine, my ACL was in tact), and a torn quadriceps. So I don’t even want to know what adding a torn ACL/PCL would have been like. That’s unbelievable that he could ever walk again after literally destroying the entire joint.