It looks like Theo Ratliff will return … to Philly

Bynum and Samb are the inactives, right? Or will Sharpe spend time on the IR also?

Alex Acker is probably hoping to make the team. Perhaps this is why Lindsey has not committed. I’m guessing that if Alex Acker shows something during training camp that Lindsey won’t be returning until the roster is reevaluated during midseason.
As for the incactive players I’m guessing that this is going to be
sometimes Acker, sometimes Bynum and Samb. I’m pretty sure that Sharpe is going to get at leaast some garbage time in the blowout games.

“Who’s going to be No. 15?”

I could actually clear up some room in my schedule. Joe? Thoughts?

Quick question for anyone that knows….what happened to Juan Dixon? He’s not listed on this version of the active roster list? Was he only signed for the remainder of last year? Gilbert Arenas has some mighty fine things to say about him on his latest blog:

“Juan is one of those players out there that needs a team, because he can really help out with scoring. He needs a team to just let him play. I’ve played with a lot of players in my time in the league, and he has to be one of the top five I’ve played with in terms of points per minute. He’s just a high volume scorer. If you gave him 40-plus minutes of playing time, he’d give you 20-plus points per game average. He’s like a bigger Ben Gordon. We’ll see where he ends up. I’ll take him back in D.C. right now.”

Not to mention he has a lot of faith in Kwame Brown, which may or may not reassure Pistons fans. Here’s an intriguing quote from Arenas about Brown (a former teammate of Gilbert):

“I like that deal for Detroit and for Kwame. He’s in a quieter city now, he’s 26-years old, he’s on a veteran team, he’s growing up. In the past in D.C. and L.A. it was a case of him being a big kid in a big city, now he can settle his career down. You know that Sheed and McDyess and those other bigs will help him develop and this should be the best time of his career because in Detroit, the bigs get touches in the offense.

Don’t think that the Kwame Brown that was in Memphis is the real Kwame Brown. When you get traded, so much emotion goes into it and leaving a No. 1 team to come into a team with a bad record halfway through the season is a tough adjustment.

In the past he had the spot light on him because he was a No. 1 pick and he was in these big markets, but now he can just go out and play hard and blend in. This is going to be his year."

I don’t know. Thought this might be of interest to any of the anti-Kwame Brown people out there. He’s still young, and keep in mind some of the players we’ve picked up over the years that have really found their niche in Detroit after underachieving or simply being unnoticed in other clubs. Recent interviews with Brown have went in the same direction. Basically, he’s a Piston now and I believe we should be supportive of this potential “lighting a fire” under someone who was regularly booed by his own fans for not living up to his draft-pick status. Kwame over Theo can be an upgrade if we can only see past the mass negativity and give this guy a fair chance. He’s still many years younger than our starters (26 I think), and the influence of the culture of our team (mainly our veteran bigs) could help change this “zero” into a hero. Where better for this to happen than the D?

Use the 15 spot for a celebrity of the month promotional thing. I can see the headlines now…
Rob Schneider is the Inactive Bench Guy!

“Rob Schneider is the Inactive Bench Guy!”

That’s if Rob Schneider doesn’t beat out Kwame Brown for a spot in the rotation…

Woah woah, my bad. Not meaning starting any Kwame Brown arguments, I’m going back to thinking happy thoughts…happy thoughts…

“That’s if Rob Schneider doesn’t beat out Kwame Brown for a spot in the rotation…”

That was so funny even Kwame Brown’s mother laughed…………. wherever she’s hiding in shame for birthing the stone-handed one.

I wish the Pistons had a James Posey/Bruce Bowen-type backup SF who wasn’t undersized. Maybe Herrmann can fill that role but I’m not convinced he has the quickness to do it. I guess Rip and Afflalo will play some SF. I’m not loving the rotation at the 3.

joejoejoe,

assuming Walter Sharpe comes along quickly, he’s a pretty good sized back up small forward…6’9" 235-240 is good sized for a small forward

im telling you joe, sign darius miles! arnie will have him finishing alley oops and pounding his headband by the trade deadline.

dude, l_train, I just laughed beer out my nose THREE TIMES on your blog. hilarious. kudos, brother. :)

To my knowledge Washington has not yet signed on with an International team.

The Pistons are now in the middle of a voluntary 3 week workout at the practice facility at the Palace.

I don’t know if this might influence our brain trust or not regarding what to do with Washington.

Personally, I would love to see him get the 15th contract and go to the D-League.

His defense is already close to being adequate. I think he has some rough spots in his defense that he can smooth out while he is playing in Fort Wayne.

I also think that his offensive game is far more suited to being improved in the D-League which is more of an above the rim league than what you will find in Europe.

He is an exciting player to watch. If he played for Fort Wayne his games could be viewed on the Net.

My vote for #15 is for Deron Washington.

Tayshaun Prince had a good game for Team USA vs. Spain.

13 minutes, 3-5 FG, 3-4 3-pt FG, 1-2 FT, 10 PTS, 1 RB, 1 ST, 1 AST

Not bad for 13 minutes. Prince channelling the Microwave in Beijing!

I still remember when Theo was a clumsy rookie, dropping passes, missing dunks, and committing silly fouls by trying to block everything under the sun. Kind of like…….Kwame? DUM DUM DUM……

Yay Australia!
Woot!!

Hmmmm. I can’t get excited talking about Theo.

Re: how we’ll do next year – I have no idea. I could see dominating or being very uneven. Regardless, I think we’re going to very fun to watch. Maybe I’m getting my hopes up, but I’m anticipating Curry ratcheting up the defense another notch to the point of over aggressiveness and testing a variety of line ups. I can’t wait.

Uh oh, Laughton. US-Australia in the Quarterfinals. The rivalry continues. Let’s see if that quick PG can continue to impress.

Hey, it was good while it lasted. Better luck next time for Team USA!
:)

AI re-ups with philly, as expected. I think Gordon is the only rfa left, and he’s quoted as saying that he’s played his last game for the bulls. We don’t need another guard right now, but i would’ve loved for gordon to be our 6th man.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3539834

Theo won’t be missed, I’m sure at the very least Kwame can put up those numbers… I pray to god, at least. If not, I’m sure after we boot his ass he’ll have no problem getting over paid in some 3rd-world country.

I don’t think the Pistons season would rise or fall with the fortunes or even presence of Theo R. But this does put slightly more emphasis on Kwame B. if just for the reason that most of our bigs are relatively small. McDyess is an average sized PF at most; Maxiell is undersized even at PF; Johnson is tall but (still) pretty darn thin. Yes, I know Maxiell played D. Howard tought for stretches, and that Johnson can be a shot-blocking machine. But you can’t teach size, and Kwame (and ’Sheed) have it. I hope Kwame figures out how to use it.

I dont know what Ben Gordon was thinking when he turned down the 5yr/50mil offer from the bulls last year. Ok, so I do know what he was thinking; with the common sense angel on one shoulder and his agent stoking his ego on the other, its not suprising that he’s made some poor career decisions. He’ll have to let go of the top dollar fantasy at some point and when he does, he could be a great addition to a lot of clubs.
I agree with Craig, I’d love to have Ben Gordon as a 6th man. He’s a boarderline starter for most teams in the east, but he’s got starter caliber scoring value, potentially allowing him to stay on the court in the crunch.
Ben gordon’s game after his Jumper is average. I’m remembering how much I loved watching ben gordon in the 07’ playoffs 2nd round series. Both the Piston guards & NBC commentators were chewing him up.

Most of the guys who the media killed last year for not signing with their teams (Okafor, Iggy, Deng) eventually got their paydays, but Ben has been unhappy with two perfectly reasonable offers. I’m not sure what kind of money he’s expecting, but it looks like Memphis is the only team in that ballpark. But unless he bolts for Europe, he should still be around somewhere for the Detroit guards to crush.

JR Smith looks like a better option financially if teams want a bench scorer, but Denver will probably retain him.

And ouch, Germany.

Not at all related (except as much as it is about a Piston big), but it’s Round 3 at HoopsAddict’s Floor-Burn Tournament. Maxiell has been rolling so far, but he’s facing Leon Powe. So, let’s at least beat the Celtics at this!

http://hoopsaddict.com/2008/08/18/floor-burn-tournament-round-3/

(Found via Ball Don’t Lie).

The best place for Gordon is in Portland. Roy can run the offense and guard the opposing SG. Gordon can play SG on offense and “guard” the other team’s PG. That’s the only place I can think of where he’d fit as a starter.

Otherwise, he’s more suited to being an Eddie House type. A scoring PG off the bench that will struggle bringing it up against ball pressure (remember what Lindsey did to him a couple years ago in the playoffs?).

I for one am glad to see Theo go. This ain’t the 90s anymore, and all he was doing is holding guys like Cheikh, Amir and Maxiell back. Kwame can reproduce what he provided without too much trouble.

@Detroit Dreshaj- do you have a sister named Casey, by any chance?

Paul M: I’m sorry to be so adamant on this, but 5 years/$50 million is NOT a reasonable offer in any stretch of the imagination. When you play on a team where Kirk Hinrich is making $36.5 million over the next four years (or an average of $9.125 million/year) and they have so little faith in Hinrich (understandably) that they passed up Beasley (who could’ve softened a blow of losing Deng had they chosen to let him go) to get Rose.

They have a #1 overall pick at PG, a hometown boy, and Hinrich is on the hook for $36.5 million through 2012. Then they go and give Luol Deng a six year deal worth at least $71 million (possibly $80 million) when they damn well know Ben Gordon is still a RFA and he’s going to be (understandably) livid. I don’t care if a person thinks Ben Gordon sucks, he averages 2 ppg more than Deng in 2 fewer minutes. And he’s miles beyond Hinrich. They insulted Gordon with this incompetence.

He absolutely should tell the press he’s getting the hell outta dodge flipping the double bird to Paxson on the way out. I can’t think of a worse GM in the NBA than John Paxson, except maybe Steve Kerr (less work to judge, he could make a sensible move yet). Otis Smith is pretty bad in my view (Billy Donovan? Seriously?), and he’s nowhere near Paxson-level.

A bad contract doesn’t become reasonable just because of other bad contracts on a team. Gordon does nothing beyond score, and he’s usually completely on or completely off. He still can’t defend either of the guard positions, either.

If the Bulls offer more, they’ll be overpaying yet another guy, and they’ll be paying the luxury tax for a team that might not make the playoffs. Paxson screwed up a lot before this point, but overpaying Gordon isn’t a great solution.

I’m with Paul M. Ben Gordon is a one-dimensional, undersized, inconsistent player who can’t defend and couldn’t hold a starting position on the Bulls. To that team, he’s not worth a penny more than $50/mil in 5.

While Paxson has made mistake after mistake with his rosters, he realized he had a choice to make between Deng and Gordon. Deng is a potential all-star, Gordon never will be. He was wise to pull the trigger on Deng and give Gordon the rough end of the stick.

I agree with LB, Gordon is miles beyond Hinrich. But shoot-first, one dimensional shooting guards that can’t defend are aplenty in this league, and they have a hard time keeping a place in it (see: juan carlos navarro). Between Gordon and Hinrich, Hinrich has more value as a contract and a position to Chicago. He’s a valuable backup PG, a decent starter in a good system (save for last season) and throughout the rest of his contract he will be a solid trade piece.

“he averages 2 ppg more than Deng in 2 fewer minutes” with one more fga/game than Deng over the last two seasons. Also, as a bench player (albeit a 33 min. 6th man), Gordon spends more time against bench players than Deng (as some argued against Amir…). At his best, Deng can be nothing short of automatic from range, a killer in the paint and an impressive rebounder. If Deng’s injuries are truly behind him, we might see a 20/10 player out of him in one of the next few seasons- with 50%+ shooting from the field.

At best, Gordon is a 6th man of the year candidate. Deng, meanwhile, is better than a coin toss to wind up an All-Star.

Paul M: Paxson should’ve grown a pair and paid Deng less. Paxson had no interest in keeping Gordon or if he did then he’s just incredibly incompetent (wouldn’t put it past him). Good luck to them with Larry Hughes as their one and only true SG for the season. At least Ben Gordon gives a crap about his shot selection. I mean, Gordon has shot over 40% from 3 for his whole career whereas Hughes has shot UNDER 30%. Yuck. They NEED Gordon (many of us on DBB excuse teams for overpaying a little out of need) and Paxson disrespected Gordon instead.

MP: Navarro didn’t like playing for $538,000/year and Chris Wallace didn’t give him anything close to the midlevel despite having tons of cap room, because he wants Memphis to get younger. Dismissing Navarro’s showing last season (you know, the one that got him on the same All-Rookie 2nd team as Stuckey) as not being NBA-worthy on account of his “one-dimensional” game makes no sense to me. He’s 27, he went back to Spain because he’s short on career time and wants good money (ie: comparable to the mid-level here), not because he’s not good enough. If he’d been on a different team that was interested in paying him, he’d probably still be in the NBA.

And please do not bring Amir into it. That’s not even comparing apples to oranges, it’s comparing apples to gorillas. Whatever competition Gordon played vis-a-vis Deng, the difference was completely negligible. Don’t forget, while Gordon’s missed 12 games over the four years he and Deng have been in the league, Deng’s missed 44, 19 of those coming last season.

Deng is a nice player, but is overpaid at 6 years/$71 (maybe 80) million dollars. Good for Paxson on that deal though, since he’s got a lot of clout in terms of big, long-term contracts (Hinrich, Ben, etc.), but also good for Gordon for telling him to screw off. Paxson deserves to hear it.

@LB:
Navarro is but one tiny example in a league full of shoot first SGs that can’t play defense and don’t deserve $50mil/5 year contracts. Gordon is the high end of that example. Of all the positions on the court, SGs always seem to be the most saturated in terms of availability.

“If he’d been on a different team that was interested in paying him, he’d probably still be in the NBA.”

You’re right. But he wouldn’t be a starter. He could have found an NBA contract, I’m sure there were many on the table— but under what he could earn in Europe and for bench PT.

“And please do not bring Amir into it.”

I’m not bringing Amir into it— I’m bringing the metric that was perpetuated here on DBB that the level of competition effects the performance stats of a given player. If ya don’t like the apples, you’ll see the tree in the mirror, unfortunately.

Ben Gordon comes off the bench late in the 1st when the opposing starters are tired, a few mins before the opposing bench comes out. I don’t know how else you want to explain the knock that every Chicago fan (and coach) has on Gordon— that as a starter, his performance is lowered and he’s terribly unreliable. He’s better off the bench. Is there any way to explain that OTHER than he’s juiced off of opposing fatigue and bench players?

“Deng is a nice player, but is overpaid at 6 years/$71 (maybe 80) million dollars.”

On the tightest of measurements, Deng is a better player than Prince, a point which I disagreed with here on DBB at first.

I lived in Chicago for the last 8 years. I couldn’t watch Pistons games until my broke, college punk ass could afford League Pass. In the mean time, I had to swallow my pride and watch Bulls games on Comcast Sports Net (f@ck you, Johnny “Red” Kerr). I watched every single Bulls game televised across Gordon’s career, save for this season. Deng as well. I can’t tell you how many Bulls fans spirits I’ve crushed in the last 8 years. However, I’m damn well qualified on their players from Luol Deng to Viktor Kryhapa to Eric Piatowski (gone now). My own personal opinions aside, I’ve had to listen to Chicago fans, Chicago press and coaches call Gordon for what he is— a college phenom whose game has never translated itself to a reliable NBA starter job.

I happen to agree that Ben Gordon isn’t worth 50 over 5 and that Chi dodged a bullet when he refused said offer. He’s not horrible by any stretch but he fits a specific type of team that Chi is no longer trying to build. They’ll now be built around Rose and as such need bigs who can finish more than a second wing player who likes to shoot. Frankly Deng is the better prospect if your goal is “a workable second fiddle who can hit the open jumper and will work without the ball until Rose distributes”…

That having been said, LB brings up a very valid point. Larry Hughes and Kirk Hinrich playing out of position do NOT equal Ben Gordon’s production at SG and frankly it doesn’t equal “Good” either.

Still, the fact is I don’t get why Chi is wrong to tell Ben “Sorry we don’t really want you” at this point. BG would be a good player in a system that was say “One big and 4 guys who can shoot” (See the GOOD version of the Raptors/Mavericks the past few year) or the team they were building 2 years ago in Chi (4 guys who can stroke and a guy who specializes in offensive rebounds)…

Wouldja pay J.R. Smith $50 mil over 5 years? What you’re getting with Ben Gordon is a smaller, less tattooed version of J.R. Smith. There’s a reason that Paxson has been trying to trade Gordon for three years now, and it has nothing to do with Deng, Hughes, Hinrich, or Rose. Gordon just isn’t going to work in a physical division like ours. I totally agree with PG4L that he would thrive in a system like the Raps or Mavs (I’d add GS, Phoe, and Orl to the list), but I don’t like Gordon for the Bulls and I definitely don’t like him for the Pistons.

At that price, i don’t like him for the pistons, either (not that i think there’s any chance of it happening). BUT, how could you not like a bench player coming in a dropping 15-20 in 20-25 minutes? We haven’t seen that in Detroit for way too long. Also, the smith comparison isn’t accurate, either, since you get the “poor behavior/attitude” discount with smith (who i’d also love to see on the stones).

LB, you realize that MP and Paul M. are baggin’ on BEN Gordon and not ERIC Gordon, right?

@Craig – To answer your first question, because I don’t think he’d ever accept being a bench player with only 20-25 minutes per game. He said: “It’s a numbers game. Last season at the trade deadline, they brought in more guards and I saw my minutes drop and didn’t understand why.” In February he averaged 31.3 minutes per game, in March 28.9, and April 22.7. My thought is that if he wanted to play 20-25 minutes per night, he could do that in Chicago while still pulling in $10 mil/year.

You definitely get the discount in Smith, but I think Gordon is more of an attitude problem than Smith because of the fact that he pouts if he doesn’t like his role. I would WAAAAAAY prefer Smith…so long as he’s not allowed to drive.

I thought these numbers were pretty interesting – it’s both their per 36 numbers (I don’t think these are too much of a stretch since Smith plays 18 min/night and Gordon plays 31 min/night)

BG – 21 ppg, 3.3 apg, 3.5 rpg, 43% fg, 31% 3fg, 91% ft, 2.4 to, .9 spg, .1 bpg.

JR – 23 ppg, 3.2 apg, 3.9 rpg, 46% fg, 40% 3fg, 72% ft, 2.8 to, 1.6 spg, .3 bpg.

And that’s with Gordon as his team’s best offensive player and Smith playing with Melo and AI…also Smith is only 22 years old.

I’ll put my 2 cents in regarding Gordon. First, the offer was last year at 5/50 and the financial dynamics at work at that time. Sure Hinrich is on the hook for 9M for years, but when he signed the contract that was before last year’s miserable season. It’s going to be tough being a PG when one of your offensive weapons is Ben Wallace, you have no low post game and your shooters are as streaky as Ben Gordon. Personally at this point right now, I’d trade Billups for Hinrich before I would trade him for Gordon.

Gordon is not a true point and because of his size, he’s going to have to play on a team with a big PG who has the ability to guard the opposition’s SG.

On some nights, Gordon can shoot the lites out, and on others not so much. The problem is he doesn’t have the handle to take the ball to the hoop on a consistent basis (ala, Stuckey). So now we’re talking about paying a guy in excess of 10M a year to a streaky shooter. In all the articles I’ve read, I’ve never seen him compared to “shooters” such as Alan Houston, Reshard Lewis, Ray Allen, Micheal Redd, or others.

Chauncy is at ~9M or 10M a year. We’re saying that Ben Gordon should be paid about the same or more than him? Then think about who else you’re going to pay top dollar to on a team, say 2 other guys near the max. Now you’re talking about 35-40M for 3 guys and though Gordon could start for a number of teams, he’s the third “star” on a lot of teams. Streaky shooting, so-so defense and undersized at the position isn’t going to get you what you think you’re worth in the NBA, plain and simple.

Granted, I think Gordon’s numbers look better if Chicago had any lowpost offense to create some space, but then you also have to have a backcourt mate who can guard the opposing 2.

I also think Gordon played the landscape in declining the offer last year and didn’t take into account (as though anyone could with 100% accuracy) the RFA’s & UFA’s this year and the lack of money (though that would be easier to project from last year).

I still think Beasley turns out to be a better pro than Rose, though Rose will be on ESPN alot because he has the ball in his hands and was in part chosen because he’s a hometown kid.

In retrospect, I am ragging on Ben Gordon a little hard. I do quite like him, but my key points should be 1) $50/5 and not a penny more would have been suitable. 2) Paxson was smart to do what he did.

PG4L (and others) is right, he would perform pretty well in some systems, I may have been shortsighted in suggesting otherwise. And if he would take a suitable salary and accept the minutes, a 6th man of the year candidate. (unless Maxiell eats his children).

Yeah, I never meant to imply he was useless or anything. He’s just not worth Deng-level money, which seems to be what he’s gunning for.

Several teams could use him if he could be had for a reasonable price. I recall that the Hornets were trying to get him this past season, and he could work as a replacement for Mo Pete or as some sorely needed scoring punch off the bench. That’d be a scrawny-ass backcourt, though.

Unless you HATE playing in that city/for that team, no one particularly likes to move, even NBA players. If Gordon could get the right money, he would have loved to stay in Chicago. Seriously, who wouldn’t want to live in Chicago (if you’re not afraid of the winter)? If Paxson gave a crap about Gordon, since NBA players are still people, he’d have tried to do right by him instead of being John Paxson and only caring about his own behind. Gordon put the majority of his eggs into the Chicago basket, and then Paxson threw away the basket opting to give Deng a gajillion dollars even after all the teams but Memphis ran out of money. Total lack of class.

Shinons: Would I pay JR Smith that money? On talent? In a heartbeat. With the overall package? Uh, of course not. JR Smith is 3x the player Ben Gordon is in terms of talent. JR plays defense, has a wicked first step (I dunno why you don’t want him driving, he’s competent and is super fast), shoots well from downtown, and his dunks are highlight reel (fun for the casual fans). The problem, as previously stated, is his ego/attitude.

QD: +1

PG4L: It’s really wrong because Chicago negotiated with Gordon for most of the summer (keeping his and their focus off other teams for his services when teams still had money) with no intention of doing right by him. If you don’t want a player, you tell him up front. If they “didn’t want him” why talk to him this long then? If they “didn’t have the money” for him why talk to him this long making him think they did? Paxson’s moves are either incompetent or duplicitous, and in fact are probably both. So the ol’ “Sorry we don’t want you for a price both sides agree on” came WAY too late in free agency. That’s the problem and I think that’s exactly what has Ben (and me on his behalf) steamed at Paxson. It’s not like Chicago’s roster has changed (except Rose in JUNE), so why would Chicago suddenly say he doesn’t fit on the roster? Hell, Chicago still wants him to sign a tender for $6.5 million. What really is their position? Jerks. Paxson tried to have his cake and eat it too. He’s likely torpedoed Gordon’s immediate future. It’s a slap in the face to Gordon. I loathe Paxson. This is absolutely busch league crap.

@LB – That’s automobile driving:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JR_Smith#Car_accidents

Just for the record, in an August 1st Sun-Times article, this was Paxson’s quote regarding the re-signing of Deng vis-a-vis trying to re-sign Gordon, “In my opinion, it doesn’t affect it at all”. I call BS on Paxson.

Paul M: If they had just given Deng 6 years $66/million, I bet Gordon wouldn’t feel so strongly about being worth “more” than 5 years/$50 million. He’s pissed that Deng is the golden boy (Paxson traded beans for Deng after Phoenix took him at 7) and Gordon is the ugly stepsister (goes #3, probably is the 7th best player in that draft, especially upsetting in retrospect when Iguodala went 9 in that draft and can play SG). Paxson clearly favors Deng because acquiring Deng is his sole successful move as a GM. This has Gordon (understandably) feeling scorned. This is ALL Paxson’s fault, and Ben Gordon is justified in his actions is all that I’m trying to say.

MP: It’s not suitable to take $50 million over 5 years when you look to your left and right and see Hinrich and Deng, knowing it all could’ve been worked out correctly if Paxson wasn’t such a jerk and/or moron and/or Deng worshipper. Paxson has never been a smart GM and what he’s done to Gordon is very classless (which in my book makes it not smart, because Joe wins over players and GMs by being a shrewd, but good guy). Ben Gordon has gotten the run-around, being totally disrespected by the Bulls. That’s really been the entirety of my position. I dunno that he’s worth 5 years/$50 million on a “solid” NBA team, but remember … Hughes is the only other SG on the roster, so he absolutely is worth it there. “Yeah, we’re going to give you about Kirk’s salary” is not something he should be subjected to hearing, period. He played better than their higher-paid, under-producing starting SG and they can’t just be decent and work everything out? That’s BS. Honestly, if I was Gordon I couldn’t live with myself making essentially the same money as Hinrich (5 years/$47.5 million) and waaaaay less than Deng or Hughes (2 years/$25.5 million left on his deal, shudder).

@LB – That’s Smith’s automobile driving abilities.

SpottieOttieDopaliscious – Not a sister, an ex-girlfriend though. Lol, small world.

Shinons: Right, I mis-understood. Can’t believe I forgot about all of those incidents. When I saw J.R in the McDonald’s Game I knew he was a special player. Unfortunately, I was not allowed to subsequently administer a psych evaluation or driving test to the guy before jumping on the bandwagon. He has made me look stupid countless times for hyping him all because he’s an idiot, not because he sucks as a player. He’s just a horrible teammate and horribly immature in general. Some of my friends still rag me about my J.R. Smith man-crush dating back to 2004. I can’t defend his actions as a person or teammate, but individual talent-wise he’s still special.

MarkButter: We have Joe D. and they have John Paxson. It’s illogical to compare salaries across the teams because Joe almost universally signs reasonable (read: bargain) contracts whereas Paxson does the polar opposite. Under that unique set of circumstances in Chicago, Gordon got screwed, period. That’s the entirety of my view. Paxson has done a horrible job in Chicago. He’s done 2 good things: Trade beans for Luol Deng on draft night in 2004 and sign Nocioni as an undrafted FA that same summer. Even a blind squirrel finds an acorn. Everything else Paxson has done has been awful. Look at what he traded Jamal Crawford, Eddy Curry and Tyson Chandler for in 3 separate deals:

Crawford deal – Frank Williams, Othella Harrington and Mutombo (never played a game for the Bulls and was traded a month later for Piatkowski, Mike Wilks and Adrian Griffin).

Curry deal (sent w/Antonio Davis) – Jermaine Jackson, Tim Thomas (played 3 games before they waived him!), Mike Sweetney, a 2006 first-round pick (which would’ve been awesome, if Paxson hadkept Aldridge instead of trading him for Tyrus Thomas and Viktor Khyrapa), and a second rounder in 2007 and 2009. Maybe Paxson drafts the next LeBron with NY’s 2nd rounder this year. Uh, yeah right.

Chandler deal – PJ Brown (who played in Chicago for one season) and JR Smith (who Paxson shipped to Denver a week later for Howard Eisley and two 2nd rounders who became Aaron Gray and Paxson actually lost two future 2nd rounders in a trade with Portland for the other 2nd rounder).

Only four guys coming back to the Bulls in those trades are still in the NBA! Of the four, three (Mutombo, Tim Thomas and JR Smith) have played a combined THREE games for Chicago. The fourth guy is PJ Brown and even he only played one season in Chicago! That’s the return investment on giving up Eddy Curry, Jamal Crawford and Tyson Chandler. Regardless of what you think of any and all of those three players, there’s no reasonable defense of Paxson on any of those three deals. Gordon is just calling a spade a spade and I’m glad he’s doing so.

@LB:
Ben Gordon really was the face of that franchise, and he did put his soul into being a Bull. No question. For that, it is unfortunate for the way Chicago’s front office has treated him. Perhaps they could have handled things in a different way, but in the end the move was smart for Chicago (choosing Deng over Gordon, which is essentially what they had to do).

Yeah, I’d take Gordon over Hughes, but Hughes contract isn’t up. That’s a no brainer. As for Hinrich, he’s a third tier point guard— which in my opinion is more rare and valuable than a 2nd tier shooting guard. Some teams are really hungry for a backup PG who, in spite of having one bad season can be a serviceable starter. His contract and his position make him more valuable to Chicago when it comes to risks with a #1 draft pick, and beyond that— a trade piece to other teams.

Paxson may lack tact, but he did the right thing in this situation. If anyone should be in the hot seat here, it should be Gordon’s agent. He could have seen this coming, instructed Ben to take the $10 per. Of course, he didn’t know the Cleveland trade was coming, but not taking that money was foolish in hindsight.

Paxon should’ve kept his confidence in Heinrich, drafted Beasley (taking both a need and the top talent) and resigned gordon. Instead, takes the hometown favorite, loses gordon (at least has little leverage at this point in a trade) and shreds his starting point guard by drafting another pg. Add in lb’s list of bad trades, and hiring del negro, and it looks like chicago is stuck in neutral for another 3-4 years. Love being a pistons fan.

Yeah Craig, you hit the nail on the head. They wouldn’t be a great defensive team, but they’d be a lot better of a team than they are now.

LawyerBoy: This is the NBA. You know as well as I do ego, ego, ego goes into these negotiations, the GM’s, the agents & the player’s. That’s the job of the agents to be the target on both sides, and it appears to me Gordon has been served poorly by his agents. 50M/5 was a perfectly good offer last year. Because Gordon didn’t take it, Paxson’s on the hook this year for the same thing? Or a bit more? I’m not attempting to defend Paxson, and I’m sure his ego took a hit last year when Gordon said, “Nope, I want more.” That’s why he let his rookie contract play out, he might sign a one year tender offer (though I doubt it) and try to hit the jackpot again.

WTF was he thinking last year when he turned down 50M/5? Gordon played the market and he lost/is losing. Do I feel sorry for the guy? Heck no. I mean, Emekafor did the same thing and until 3 weeks ago, was sorta headed in the same direction. The worst thing you do as a player is negotiate thru the paper. Let your agent do that so you can always backpeddle from the comment.

Heck, you could see who had money to sign possible free agents this year just by looking at other teams payroll from last year. And let’s face it, Gordon was planning on a balls breakout year. Chicago (from the previous two years play) was picked by some to be in the finals, the pistons were fading fast and until the Celts traded for KG & Allen (basically within a month of the draft) who was going to stop Chicago with the possible exception of Cleveland?

Besides, given the exchange rate and perks, as good as Gordon is, he could/could have signed overseas. I mean, if Childress got what he got and Dan Dickau is worth close to 1M in Europe, Gordon could have gone that route based on Paxon’s comment in April.

Bottom line is: unless there’s a sign and trade not very many teams want a streaky ~6’ shooting guard who plays so-so defense who has a poor handle. Like the housing industry here in SoCal, it’s a buyers market. And holding your house out to be a 1M house when nobody is buying it still doesn’t make it a 1M house no matter how long you hold onto it and say it is.

But alas, the best laid plans of men and mice….

MP: Lacking tact shouldn’t be considered the right thing. R.C. Buford and Joe Dumars succeed while showing tact. Paxson can’t cut the mustard and Gordon is calling him out. Either Paxson lied or he’s incompetent or both. Take your pick. He didn’t do anything smart as a GM because he’s not a smart GM. He’s making the best of a horrible situation that he put himself in. A smart GM placates the egos and gets Gordon AND Deng re-signed (see: Joe Dumars affording 3 multiple-time all-stars on $35 million/year total). That’s the whole freaking point of letting Duhon go to the Knicks, to have the money. Whether you like Ben Gordon or not (apparently not), Paxson did him and his team’s fans wrong by being a black hole of successful team management.

And if Hinrich does what he did last year ever again, his contract is a steaming pile of crap that’s a handicap for trades not an asset. It goes through 2012, and no backup PG earns his payday. Last year Hinrich was Luke Ridnour of three years ago. The difference is that Hinrich’s locked up until 2012 and owed $36.5 million in these next 4 years. That Luke Ridnour of three years ago, he got 3 years/$18 million.

MarkButter: If Paxson shaves $9 million, or what equates to $1.5 million/year off Deng’s (inflated) contract, he can keep Gordon. He couldn’t be bothered to do that, because Deng is his pet, his only symbol of success, and he’s clearly wrapped around Deng’s finger. I’d be willing to concede Gordon might’ve gotten “bad advice”, but he’s dealing with a moron in Paxson. Treating Paxson like he understands concepts that are crucial to being a successful GM was the bad advice.

LB: Priorities. If you can’t figure out what you want, figure out what you don’t want. Choice: Signing Deng or Gordon first? Can’t choose? Deductive analysis. Answer: Signing Deng first pisses off Gordon. Signing Gordon first pisses off Deng. Who’d I rather piss off and possibly lose? Gordon, thus Deng become priority #1.

So what you’re saying is give Gordon 1.5M more on the table this year and he signs? You’re going to have to convince me of that. Gordon feels as though he should be paid as the number 1 on the team. He basically states (sorry, don’t have the link) that as the team’s leading scorer, he should be paid as such (i.e., the most). Sorry, not buying that. Who do I want with the ball in their hand with 10 seconds left in the game? Gordon or Deng? Is that worth 1.5M more to keep Deng or 1.5M more to keep Gordon?

I think Joe D signing 3 all-stars for 35M is a testimony of Joe D., the players and the organization. You can’t tell me that if Sheed was 27 and not almost 34/35, that he wouldn’t be screaming for more money. Nobody wanted to come to Detroit during Dickie V., the Classy Chasis and Terry Tyler and John Long were throwing down. So organizations do matter. Chicago hasn’t been a well run organization that I can recall. Remember Jerry “Organizations win championships, not players” Riesdorf? Paxon is doing Jerry Krause’s (I think he’s the owner) bidding. Let’s say Tyrus Thomas explodes this year. You’ve got Deng signed, Hinrich and now Gordon, where’s the money going to come from for him? Do I want an athletic freak at the 4 or an undersized SG who plays so-so defense?

It’s easy to say Hinrich is overpaid, and I agree that when he signed the contract it was a bit high, but one bad season doesn’t mean his contract is bull. If they had great hopes in Rose coming in and busting it up, they’d have traded Hinrich already. He’a a very expensive insurance policy, I grant you that.

But the bottom line is Gordon isn’t a top 1 player for any team, yet he wants to be paid like one. Ain’t gonna happen.

I do agree that Paxson doesn’t know what he’s doing. If he does, he sure is keeping it a secret. I don’t see any short or long term plan and don’t like their mix of players. But remember, when they signed Wallace away, everyone was on the bandwagon. Trades work. Trades don’t.

I read today that the Suns paid 3M to move up three spots ahead of the Pistons to draft Dragic. 3M well spent? Who knows. Joe D actually thinking of drafting a PG? Who knew. Joe D certainly has a couple of stinkers…Darko (though it turned into stuck) via Arroyo. Rodney White? I mean, it’s easy to look back and say WTF taking T. Thomas and not Aldridge. But at the time, the analysis was leaning towards Thomas. In fact, I think Aldridge was drafted and then traded to Portland.

If you’ve got a player who thinks he’s a 13M player and no one is going to pay him 13M, he’s not a 13M player, no matter how many times he jumps up and down and says he is. What was Okafor contract? 72M/6yrs? Gordon isn’t in the same class (i.e., who you going to build your team around if you have to choose between the two?) But that’s the type of money he’s seeking. Is Paxson lowballing Gordon? It doens’t matter. Gordon has no leverage.

What you’re saying is the only way Paxson doesn’t come off looking like a jackass in this case is to cede to Gordon’s contract demands. That’s a very bad precedent to start.

Seems to me we’re arguing two different things here:

1) Ben Gordon IS an idiot. This is pretty much obvious. He also clearly over-values himself in the current market though BECAUSE most NBA GM’s are… you guessed it, idiots, he just MIGHT be right. Someone out there would likely pay him more than 10 million a year if he’d been available at the start of the offseason (Dear Golden State, I’m thinking of you)…

2) Paxon isn’t a very good GM. This much is obvious through his previous “dealings” the past 2 years (or longer depending on how you feel about giving away Eddie Curry… personally I see that as a winning trade and yes I understand they basically got nothing out of the deal because they blew the subsequent draft pick… it’s still Eddy Curry NOT being on your team, thats a plus yo)…

I’m not sure this CURRENT arguement proves either point 1 or point 2, Gordon was an idiot BEFORE he demanded a sign and trade and Paxon was an idiot BEFORE he strung Gordon out all off-season as an insurance policy against failing to sign Deng.

Still, we can all agree on points 1 and 2, and really I’m fine with leaving it there.

Enjoy your discussion boys.

@Mark Butter:
Very well put, you said it better than I could. :)

2 seasons ago, heinrich is the next steve nash (not my words, but it was written about him). Now, he’s being compared to luke ridnour? I think aside from the other white player comparisons, he’s closer to the former then the latter. He killed my dbb fantasy team last year, but I gotta believe guarding the best guard on the other team, a change in coaches, and staggering expectations for the team as a whole is a better explanation for last season then him just not being good. I don’t see him regaining his numbers on the bulls, but kirk is still a starting pg for most teams in the league, and is paid accordingly. Chicago is becoming Clippers east, good talent, bad team.

MP: Thanks. Though my typing runneth over.

MarkButter: PG4L is right. Ben Gordon and Chicago would have gotten interest from teams if Gordon had been done right. Whether it took a sign and trade to do it or not, Gordon could’ve gotten 5 years/$55 million or more from a team. Paxson pussyfoots, leads Gordon on and Gordon is probably going to have to sign a tender or not play in the NBA this year all because Deng and Paxson only care about themselves. If Deng gets 6 years/$62 million, Gordon stays. Gordon publicly said he wanted to stay in Chicago but this treatment of him (understandably) was piss poor.

Joe didn’t try and make Ben stick around for less money. Joe played it straight. He told Ben he needed to save enough money to keep Chauncey the next summer. Joe let Ben get the money because he’s not selfish. Joe didn’t lead Ben around when there was no way the numbers could work. He put in his offer and he walked away when he was outbid. Paxson is selfish and he’s developing a reputation as a player-disrespecting incompetent. Try signing a marquee free agent with that reputation. Ben Gordon will have a job long after John Paxson is out of one.

agghhh, talking in circles makes me light-headed.

ben is worth no more than $10/mil for 5.

deng is a much better, more important player than gordon.

bulls HAD to choose deng. and they don’t get two choices.

shit didn’t work out in gordon’s favor, we can’t accurately speculate on why it took so long for negotiations to break down.

gordon’s agent is to blame for not taking the $50mil, and additionally pulling out every retarded press card he could during negotiations (“i’m going to europe!” “i’m no longer a bull!” “i’m the top scorer!”)

Paxson sucks, but i’m siding with him on this one. The loser: Gordon’s agent. The winner: the Bulls.

I like Ben Gordon, quite a bit actually. But his agent is a bigger asshole than Paxson is in this situation.