“The conviction with which Hamilton responded has essentially put Curry in a corner.”

Nobody puts Mike Curry in a corner.

“No one wants to admit it, but at this stage in his career, Allen Iverson is nothing more than T.J. Ford without a conscience.”

Matt Watson might not be as bright as I’d thought. Good thing Joey D is actually in charge on what happens during the 48 minutes.

Bravo, Matt. And thanks for the shout out!

(we miss you around these parts, btw)

Matt, T.J. Ford without a conscience? That’s just ice cold. What’s Ford conscience? He’s too much of a consistent bricklayer from three to shoot them? If that means he has a conscience and AI doesn’t, then I guess there’s nothing.

I love how McCosky only asked Rip in this story, and chose not to ask AI. I might be presumptuous here, but I gather that means it’s Rip or nobody. I wouldn’t be too sure AI would meet the request/demand with team-first enthusiasm.

On the Clippers broadcast they showed all the players making $20 million or more this season, and although someone seemed to completely forget that Tracy McGrady is on that list to choose from, both broadcasters agreed Kobe, Duncan and less emphatically, Garnett were the only ones they’d take from the group if they were looking for a $20 million man. Understandably, AI got nary a mention of any sort other than his name flashed in the graphic.

Well Petey, if you look at AI’s and Ford’s per 36 minute numbers they are remarkably close. Ford actually shoots a slightly higher percentage across the board. Both are liabilities on defense and both have the ability to deform the defense.

I’ll patiently point out the two core fallacies here, and then let folks call me an idiot:

1) “(Rip is) a player who actually fits the offense”

Not anymore.

Rip’s entire gig was dependent on having a PG who had good court sense and who could knock down the ‘3’ at a very high rate. That provided the mid-court spacing for Rip to operate. That’s gone now.

That doesn’t mean Rip isn’t still quite useful, but the offense is no longer a perfect fit for his game. Stuckey’s dribble-drive game will not leave the middle open the way the threat of Chauncey’s shooting touch kept the spacing perfect for Rip.

2) “(Iverson is) shooting 37.5% in that span”

Of course, “that span” is one where the Pistons won 80% of their games. But that’s not the real problem here. Instead…

- You’ve simply got to use TS% when evaluating shooting efficiency of ANY player, but especially of a player that shoots many FT’s or 3’s. And Iverson shoots a lot of FT’s. For example, Afflalo this year has a FG% of 45% (bad), but a TS% of 56% (above average) because he’s shooting 3’s.

- Iverson’s TS% is down quite a bit this year from recent years. He’s been quite an efficient scorer over the past five years. He’s being a mildly inefficient scorer this season because of some combination of a) he’s over the hill b) he’s in a slump, or c) his role has changed on the Pistons and he hasn’t found where to get his shots yet. I think it’s option ‘c’, and I think it’ll get better as the season progresses.

- Most importantly, Iverson’s value to a team trying to win a title is not about his own shot and his own shooting efficiency. Iverson’s value is about his ability to (say it with me) deform the defense and get higher percentage shots for the entire offense. All Iverson has to do with his own shooting efficiency is keep it high enough to not harm the team with his own shots, and at a TS% of 51% this year, he’s already around that level. Try watching a Pistons game and paying attention to what happens OFF THE BALL when Iverson probes the defense with his dribble.

I say good for Rip!!! MC needs to stop making excuses for AI’s suckiness… like someone else… we all know… that might go on never ending tangents.

Really, in the end, MC is a hypocrite. He only holds certain people accountable, and simply denies the obvious, statistically or non-statistically… AI is old and he aint even close to what he used to be.

Can we bump this article up to Dumars? Maybe print it out and all sign it?

One final note:

I did some science for y’all, and discovered that Iverson’s TS% in the 4th quarter this year is 54%, which is more of an acceptable number than what’s he’s put up for full games.

Why is this important?

It’s NOT important as a way of proving Iverson “clutch”. Different topic. It IS important because Curry has been employing a radically different offense in the fourth quarter than the one he uses during the first three quarters.

During the first three, he mostly has Iverson hidden off the ball, which doesn’t play to Iverson’s strengths, and generates most of Iverson’s shots as a spot-up jump shooter – an area where Iverson has never been particularly efficient.

Then in the fourth quarter, he puts the ball in Iverson’s hands and lets him probe, which is where Iverson can be an efficient scorer.

It took me a while to figure out why Curry was doing this, and I think the answer is that given that opposing teams have to totally refocus their defenses to deal with Iverson’s penetration, “hiding” the real offense until crunchtime leaves the opposition struggling to deal with it when it is suddenly sprung on them during the most important quarter of the game.

Curry’s strategy gives the Pistons an extra gear in the fourth quarter, but it may not be particularly helpful for Iverson’s personal stats. However, I’ll take playing in June over stats.

I gotta say that watching AI play has been dissappointing. I had high hopes and when he came to Portland even the Blazers fans around me were excited. In the game, though, his handle was impressive and he created space, but he didn’t hit shots, get to the line very often, or create for his teammates. Some of that must be Pistons bigs not getting to where they need to be, but it was a letdown to see him play. He looked mortal.

As to AI probing the defense: he did it off of a high pick and roll again and again, got penetration, then made poor decisions or missed his shot. I kept expecting it to work, and when it didn’t, I expected the Stones to go elsewhere.

Oh, the big grain of salt, of course, is that Rip was out, Sheed was out, and Dice was banged up, which left us very shorthanded. It’s easy to stop a team from scoring when they’ve only got three options.

Why couldn’t we have just traded for Marbury’s expiring contract…

“I gotta say that watching AI play has been dissappointing. I had high hopes and when he came to Portland … He looked mortal.”

He is mortal. Everyone in the association except LeBron is mortal.

@Petey: Your shtick is getting very very very very very very very old.

‘TJ Ford without a conscience’.

Ouch.

“@Petey: Your shtick is getting very very very very very very very old.”

My schtick is so old it’s got whiskers on it.

Petey: First of all, i have to give credit for your solid analysis. I had noticed a bit of what you were talking about(differing offense depending on the quarter) but you put it together very well, which reassures me that I am not crazy or my eyes are deceiving me. I believe you are correct in what you have seen. I would say that your reasoning for why MC has been employing this strategy would be correct(especially since the Pistons have been missing crucial players whose skills give us needed variety on offense. Curry may feel he has to switch things up and surprise the opposition). Incidentally, with rip back to stretch the floor i think the offense will look much better. And as far as playing with stuckey, lets remember, stuckey is not a bad shooter by any means and he is getting better. Plus, he really is a solid passer(just needs to have someone to pass to: when Tayshaun is the only shooter out there it gets a bit harder, eh?)

I should point out that I have been a long time pusher for AI to come off the bench(though I want him out there for 30 – 40 minutes). Mostly, because I think that it would keep the offense moving when we start subbing in players. Then Iverson could just stay out there for most of the time and still be on the court in crunch time. Though, I don’t really subscribe to the notion that the fourth quarter is anymore important than the first(basket is still worth 2, right) so by crunch I mean “When the game is close and it looks like either we can put it away or the opposition might be taking over”.

In the end, the defense has looked waaaay better and the fact that we are KILLING

teams on the glass(especially the offensive boards) is a very good sign. Incidentally, the Amir Johnson slaggers are retards. yeah he fouls alot…uhh remember, 21 yrs old big man(bigs are slower to develop than perimeter players), not many minutes(this is basically a true rookie season for him, stuckey too considering the injuries and lack of minutes last year). Amir will have good and bad games, but the results on defense and rebounding speak for themselves.

Yo Rip if Chauncey can be straight up traded then I think you can be the 6th man, get with the team pal. Very Dissapointing.

And to think my Authentic Rip Jersey just came in lol.

Guy’s been starting every game of his 7+ years here in Detroit, with great success, and now is expected to come off the bench just to not bruise the ego of a has-been superstar we rented for a year just to make capspace?

???

Sorry, if anyone is allowed to bitch about that move, it’s definitely Rip. Solid D, clutch as hell, hits open shots and actually WANTS to be in Detroit enough to sign an extension to stay during what’s sure to be a “rebuilding” period… don’t disprespect the man after he clearly showed the organization a ton of respect by basically signing on to play the rest of his productive years here. He starts on 98% of NBA teams… except where he wants/deserves/has earned the right to start unequivocally.

That was supposed to end with a “?!?!?”

Personally, I think it is easy. AI is one of the best NBA players in history to beable to create on his own. Get his own shot, and score.
Rip on the other hand needs the ball in his hands at the right time, not creating on his own. Coming off the curls, and picks.
Rip starting having Stuck get him that ball, which he definitely can…..AI coming off the bench….let him create, let him, amir, Dyess, AA, max…..all together…
I think it is easy…..
And I think we could be pretty damn good doing it that way.

Pick a Player!

A: 50.9 TS%, 21.6 assist ratio, 10.7 turnover ratio, 21.4 usage rate, 5.3 rebound rate, 16.30 PER
B: 55.8 TS%, 7.4 assist ratio, 11.4 turnover ratio, 13.1 usage rate, 14.6 rebound rate, 14.15 PER
C: 52.5 TS%, 25.2 assist ratio, 11.2 turnover ratio, 21.1 usage rate, 7.2 rebound rate, 15.52 PER

A: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?playerId=0366
B: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?playerId=2171
C: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?playerId=1979

To those who say that Rip’s response is disappointing – would you really want someone who lacks the confidence and competitiveness to believe that he improves the team as a starter and to desire to help the team with his abilities?

It is not just the trade, but rather Stuckey’s emergence, that has made this issue. If Chauncey was still in Detroit, would Stuckey still be coming off the bench when Rip returned?

Small ball doesn’t work in long stretches, so there are 4 starters competing for 3 starting positions — AI, Rip, Stuckey, and Tay. This is a problem, though not a bad problem to have.

My two cents – AI plays better with the second unit, particularly Maxiell and Afflalo, and so he should move to the bench. Then again, it could blow up into a rant about a former MVP coming off the bench — practice, we talkin bout practice? I want to give Curry the benefit of the doubt – hoping that his frequent line-up changes are a set up to putting AI on the bench come May/June.

@bc – can I correct one of your sentences?

AI USED TO BE one of the best NBA players in history to be able to create on his own.

If we had the AI from 6 years ago then I’d be all for AI over Rip. This aint a “down” year for AI… he’s fallen and he can’t get up!

I completely understand Rip being upset, but you dont say “it ain’t happening” he doesnt make the decisions.

And id rather much deal with a hostile Rip then a hostile AI.

+1 Birdman

Does Darko deform defenses?!?

“And id rather much deal with a hostile Rip then a hostile AI.”

That’s like saying you’d rather have a bitchy wife than a bitchy spring break lay. One you’re only going to see for a (hot) minute, one is with you for the rest of your life. I’d rather deal with an ornery booty-call any day.

AI is gonna be here for 1 season, Rip should be able to handle the 6th man role for 1 season. Rip and Stuckey is our backcourt for the next few years. He should realize this.

“Rip’s entire gig was dependent on having a PG who had good court sense and who could knock down the ‘3′ at a very high rate. "

And now we have Allen Iverson. Ba-dum-bum.

“I did some science for y’all, and discovered that Iverson’s TS% in the 4th quarter this year is 54%, which is more of an acceptable number than what’s he’s put up for full games.”

First of all, you are selective in your use of science. You note that we have won eight of our last ten, failing to note that our point differential over that span has been rougly even.

Second, did you do enough science to discover that Rip puts up this percentage all the time?

Iverson’s shooting percentage is off because he is 33, and because little speedy players go over the hill quickly.

“Iverson’s value is about his ability to (say it with me) deform the defense and get higher percentage shots for the entire offense.”

We are 23rd in the league in true shooting percentage. The Pistons look absolutely lost on offense, which hasn’t been the case for the last three years.

A good offensive squad has a TS% of 56% or better. Given that Iverson takes 20% of the shots, and has a TS% of 50 (the same as the Los Angeles Clippers, btw), the rest of the team would have to post a TS% of 58% in order to be among the league’s top five. Given that Iverson’s individual teammates have only registered a TS% of 58% or better nine times during his career, I don’t see that happening.

DearOldBlighty: Amir slaggers are not retards.

Idea:
Trade Petey and Acker for TJ Ford, straight up.

I’d be willing to throw in a couple draft picks for that one.

“Trade Petey and Acker for TJ Ford, straight up.”

It doesn’t work under the cap.

Otherwise, I’d tell Joey D it’s a good deal. Iverson could rest on back-to-back games like Shaq does with TJ available for spot duty.

But even if it did work under the cap, my agent tells me that agreeing to it would mean waiving my Bird rights, and that could screw me down the line.

Not to mention that with Acker gone, Walter Sharpe would be falling asleep constantly…

I believe Rip should be given the nod to start too. But our local radio stations (won’t give no names) believe that thought of Iverson being benched is just ridiculous and have been ripping on Rip the entire day for “complaining” about the possibility.

Rip’s game is better suited to be a starter. AI should go to the bench and I feel that the Pistons will be a better team for it.

The media’s job is to be fucking retarded. This is true in all of life.

Petey, you certainly put a lot of thought into your analysis, and I can appreciate that. The thing is, a fair amount of it points to AI coming off the bench in my opinion. One of your favorite points is that AI and Afflalo need to be on the court together, which would certainly happen if they came in together. He performs the best with the ball in his hands; there would be no question who would be in control in the second unit. He also wouldn’t have to be passive in letting other players get theirs. For the time that he is playing with the starters, it could still run as it does now, and the opponent’s first unit could still be guessing in the forth with an adjustment.

You’re half right about Rip I think. His game was certainly dependent on Chauncey’s passing, but the 3-point threat didn’t have much to do with it. It’s not like he drew defenders to leave Chauncey open; I have no stats here, but I highly doubt Rip got many assists that way. He just ran around off screens and shot. Even if you’re right, Sheed stands out there often enough to provide said spacing. Now, Stuckey can set him up. Rip is also our best 3-point shooter , so he can get shots when Stuckey breaks down the D (which AI hasn’t done at all). Also, if MC is suddenly as smart as your “saving AI’s strengths for the 4th” suggests, then that’s bad news for your case.

Diablo:

I think I was listening to that same radio show. I almost called in (would have been a first) to argue that AI should come off the bench.

Whatever your beef may be with AI (he shoots too much, defensive liability, old, whatever the case), not to fart out a Drew Sharp, but I feel RIP’s shortcomings are consistently overlooked.

While I like visiting DBB and finding content updates, this one shocked me. AI has never been perfect, but god damn this was harsh.

AI definitely has his flaws, the list is apparently continuously magnified, but I believe this team is growing accustomed to his game and putting themselves in positions to succeed on the court. Maxiel off the pick’n’rolls, AF SpellCheck from deep in the corner, a kwame brown minus the cake-in-the-face downlow. Everyone has adapted to his driving capabilities, and given the priorities of a former MVP and a championship caliber team in the stretch-run, I think he deserves a Rihanna Umbrella for the DBB shitstorm.

I’m not John Hollinger and breaking down minute stats, but why ignore RIPs short-comings for the ever-so-popular-throw-AI-under-the-bus because his contract is up next year and we’ll get GASP! LBJ or VelociBosh?

Countless times I see the RIPster freewheeling up the court only to 3…2…1… countdown-to-failure and turnover, pass sails out of bounds. Without the awkward Tayshaun alley-oop, a RIP fastbreak is like a Lindsey Hunter r fast-break minus the brick-off-the-backboard. AI gives it his all, and while he may show disgust towards a call or two, he is capable of hitting ABORT while RIP continuously pokes and prods for a Technical. RIP consistently fails to navigate a 3-on-1 and his late-game diarrhea of the mouth has happened far too many times. I do understand the numbers in the AI trade in the off-season and how they are conducive to landing a PTPer. Currently though, and my apologies for fictitiously invoking the prophet Stephen A Smith: “HOW-EV-A, RIP and Brian McKnight off the bench, green lightin’ it like george dubya and the abolition of civil rights, what is not to like about that?”

I agree with Matt, Mike Payne and others who support AI coming off the bench.

It just doesn’t make sense, no matter how much some AI knobslobber tells us AI is best used in the starting lineup to have in the starting 5.

At this point in his career, and with the way Stuckey is playing you possibly actually limit Stuckey’s ability to dominate the ball by having AI on the floor. With AI on the floor it also puts us at a disadvantage defensively and exposes our depth at PG, or lack thereof. If Detroit had, say, a Luke Ridnour or some other low TO PG on the bench as backup then I’d say start AI and let Rip come in with the true point.

Since MFWB isn’t going to play unless the game is a blowout (and he’s not a pass first little man), we’re at a disadvantage with all the wing players on the 2nd unit.

What would Doc Rivers do?

(I kid, I kid)

@wb – Rip’s flaws are very familiar to all of us, but they can be kept in check if Rip chooses. AI can’t do anything but play the way he plays: dribble into traffic, jump in the air, then shoot a poor percentage shot or pass to, hopefully, somebody who’s waiting for his pass. When he makes a shot people “ohhh” and “ahhh”, but they forget about the other 2 he shot and missed. Rip’s game is fairly consistent, even if you do get a turnover here or there.

Why do we need AI to “deform” the defense when Stuckey can penetrate and actually MAKE a layup?

Apologies for a long post:

But I love Petey’s “AI’s TS% is a bit down, and it’s just a matter of him getting used to his role here” as if, were it to return to its prior level it would be clear that we prefer AI to Rip. Hamilton’s TS% is already 54%, and in December, if his fg% was 51%, his TS% must have been significantly higher than 54% given his 3-point and FT prowess. You’re right: there is some chance that Iverson progresses to his recent mean. But that mean is no better than the efficiency level at which Rip is likely to produce, and in fact is probably still below it.

So I guess this leaves us with the theory that, while Rip might be the more efficient shooter, AI’s real value is to deform defenses, which Rip cannot do. First, if this is the case, why has 1. AI tended to be on inefficient offenses (I thought his penetration was creating 65% TS% opportunities for his teammates) and 2. why is his recent ast/to in the 7:3.5 area (i.e. extremely inefficient)? If AI is deforming defenses left and right, he sure seems to be doing so 1. at the cost of a lot of turnovers and 2. with de minimus obvious effect on his teammates’ TS% (as his teams have tended to be inefficient).

Moreover, let’s layer on qualitative observation. Petey has frequently pointed out times Iverson gets in the paint and affects the spacing for everyone else on the floor, without necessarily getting credit for an assist. (This is in anticipation of the very fluffy argument that somehow while Chris Paul can live in the paint and produce a sterling assist rate, Iverson doesn’t, but is really just being punished by our inability to quantify defense deformation). Well how many times have we seen him get in the paint and wing a soft pass at a shooter’s feet, wasting what could have been a high % shot? I see no reason why Iverson’s defense deformation should be measured any differently than any of the other putatively elite ball-dominating guards in the league – who tend to put up monster PERs, with the exception of Allen Iverson.

and we want to talk about spacing? How about the fact that when Stuckey and AI are on the court, teams can pack the paint b/c neither is a great three point shooter? Conversely, Rip has been shooting 40% in recent years, a number AI couldn’t dream of.

And this is before I even start on defense, where Rip is actually one of our better defenders on LeBron, while AI can turn below average point guards into Devin Harris.

Matt Watson is spot on that AI is a glorified TJ Ford. And Kevin S is spot on that our recent “success” without Rip has been 1. demonstrably not from AI’s mid 30’s% shooting and 2. highly unimpressive, in that we’ve barely outscored the opposition and are winning coin flip games.

@Forty:
+forty

I’m a big AI fan and I want him to come off the bench. His game just isn’t suited to playing with other good offensive players for 40 minutes. I wouldn’t mind seeing ’Sheed come off the bench too and letting ’Dyess start at C alongside Amir.

Stuckey-Rip-Tay-Amir-Dyess
AI-Afflalo-Herrmann-Max-Sheed

Pick up the intensity and cut the minutes. Change the units like hockey lines for 3 quarters, then mix and match in the 4th. You could start one unit on even days, one on odd days. I don’t really give a crap who starts and the players shouldn’t either.

Said more succinctly – we have our ball-dominating, defense-deforming starting guard. His name is Rodney Stuckey. And in his sophomore season, he’s producing more efficiently than AI. He is also a vastly superior defender.

Rip theoretically would seem to complement either, as a guy who does not need the ball to produce solidly on offense, is not a defensive liability, and can shoot efficiently after the defense has been sufficiently deformed. We’ve seen what a lineup of AI and Rip looks like (roughly a .500 record that had the league crowing about how much we miss Billups). We’ve seen what Stuckey and AI looks like (a very lucky record, no thanks to outrageously inefficient performances by AI). We haven’t seen what Stuckey and Rip looks like, but given how terrible Iverson has been, could it possibly be worse?

Crap, you know what I forgot? This is all about winning a championship. Had I looked at this through that lens, I clearly would have opted for AI’s many and consistent post-season achievements over Rip’s. My bad, let’s start AI and play Rip in spot minutes behind Afflalo.

To add to Forty’s point…

AI is having a VERY average TS% year. This year(.509) ranks 8th out of his 13 seasons (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/iversal01.html). This is NOT abnormal… it’s VERY normal. What we’re seeing is what we’re gonna get for the rest of the year.

“This is in anticipation of the very fluffy argument that somehow while Chris Paul can live in the paint and produce a sterling assist rate, Iverson doesn’t, but is really just being punished by our inability to quantify defense deformation”

You read my mind, Forty.

I’ll point you back to my breakdown of Prince’s game winner against Denver. Iverson didn’t receive a statistical assist on the play, despite the fact that he created a high percentage offensive shot for the team by deforming the defense with his dribble and making the right decisions.

This ain’t baseball. Individual stats in hoops only take you so far. If you looked at Roscoe’s career stats without watching the games, you wouldn’t have any idea that he’s been a pretty elite player.

Individual hoops stats are highly useful if you are trying to expand upon the info you get by eyeballing the game, but if you rely on them to tell the whole truth, you can get stuck in a blind men and the elephant type situation. Fluffy enough for you?

I think this has an easy answer (no pun intended): what starting 5 gives us the best chance of winning: A starting 5 that includes Rip or one that includes AI.

In addition, let’s assume you don’t have to choose between the two. Pretend you’re at recess and pick one or the other for your team. Which gives the Pistons the best chance with the current personnel.

Doing that, I think there’s no doubt AI goes to the bench. AI can make alot more money in the future being a 6th man for a contender than “da man” for a perennial loser. Given his size, even though he’s a 2 a teaam will need a big PG to guard the opp’s #2. Which means thinking into the future:

Is he going to replace Parker on the Spurs: NO Mike Bibby: NO Jameer Nelson: NO Mo Williams: NO Fisher/Farmer: NO Rondo: NO CP3: NO Blake: NO

There maybe a contender or two in the future, but I think AI’s NOT their #2. At the end of the day, he can be our Microwave . . or not.

Guess it comes down to was AI serious that he would do whatever the coach wanted and is looking for a ring. . . guess we’ll find out.

Did Rip actually make those comments, or is this just a “somebody said” moment? Regardless, AI is not the leader of the team, and he hasn’t shown me anything since coming to Detroit that would make me declare him the alpha-dog. I doubt that at this stage of his career he would even be in the running for sixth man. He’s hit a couple clutch shots, but mostly throws up a lot of bricks, often ignoring the open man (usually Stuckey). He’s kinda like the fat Elvis- still packing ‘em in at Vegas, but not producing any new material. What you used to do is not as important as what you can do- and it doesn’t seem like AI can do much any more except draw a crowd. I go with Rip all the way.

rip realizes that it’s illogical to start ai over him. the team plays to get everyone involved at the beginning, something that ai doesn’t care much about. petey pointed out they play differently in the fourth than in the first, as they should. but it’s pretty obvious that rip suits that first quarter play better than ai. curry may want to start ai to make sure ai doesn’t run home pouting, but if rip makes it look like he’s being the jerk, maybe ai will accept it.

I think AI should start because he draws so much attention when he’s on the floor, believe it or not eventually the team should get things going because the open shots will be there.RIP is a great player but we are talking about benching a player who will with no doubt be in the hall of fame one day. This is a new system for AI who just last season averaged 27.0 ppg 7ast with Denver. I think if you sit AI Stuckey wont be as productive because the floor wont be open for him to attack the rim. Stucky has been the one player who has benefited the most I believe with the presence of AI, now if you take AI out of the lineup things will slow down for Stucky. Now who’s going to create open shots for the team RIP? RIP is a very good player he can shoot the but thats only off of screens or when he’s open, he cannot create for his self so how will he create for his teammates.AI can create off the dribble breakdown defenses demand a double team hit the open shot open the floor up for teammates play the passing lanes and get to the foul line.MC has the choice to take advantage of having AI for a season or he could bench him and start RIP and have the same results from last season as far as RIP’s productivity. Remember there is a chance AI wont be in Detroit next season RIP will have his chance to start next season for now lets just win a championship.

I will co-sign with Forty and the rest of the pro-Rip crowd.

I would like to add one thing to the whole argument. We have a player who can “deform” defenses. Not that I buy that we absolutely need somebody like that, but anybody who has a pair of working eyes can see that the best “deformer” we have is Rodney Stuckey.

Whoops, I had this window open for about an hour and a half before posting. Sorry for the re-post on Stuckey being our “deformer”. Forty, we’re on the same page, brother.

Toledo Joe: I was going to do the samething, only because it kind of frustrated me that they would villainize Rip the way they did. What surprised me most was the ammount of people who called in and agreed with them…

Mouhamed Sene does not agree with all this TS% discussion. He dominated the D League and that’s all the matters according to LB.

all the of the Oklahoma City big men are better than Amir Johnson, never forget this.

/LawyerBoy

oops

/LawyerBoy’d*

AI’s TS% (.509) is actually way below the league average (around .540). He has the highest usage on the team (which is bad if you shoot that poorly) and a very high turnover rate. These aren’t exactly good for the offense, and they’ve had no small part in the Pistons’ offensive plummet this season (as well as AI replacing a guy who excelled at both shot efficiency and avoiding turnovers).

The other starters are either shooting around the same or worse efficiency-wise than last year (other than Stuckey, who doesn’t get assisted much ), so there hasn’t been much evidence of AI as a positive factor in our offense outside of a guy with a tivo cherrypicking isolated plays.

High usage guys are great if they can hit a lot of their shots (Kobe, LBJ) or if they’re surrounded by guys who struggle to create for themselves (AI in Philly, McGrady in Houston to some extent). Neither is the case here. His shooting efficiency problems are well documented, and it’s not like we’re not trotting out guys like George Lynch and Eric Snow here.

The funny thing is that, as Greg and some others have pointed out, the positives that AI brings are perfectly suited for the second unit, which lacks ballhandlers but has guys who can hit open shots, defend, and crash the boards. There, AI can play minutes with Spellcheck, he can get the ball early on in the shot clock and work whatever dribbling/deformation magic he’s supposed to provide, create shot opportunities for guys who are otherwise rather offensively limited, and basically do whatever the hell he wants. All this with the luxury of logging fewer minutes, which has been touted as a key in AI’s effectiveness.

Yes, Petey, that is decidedely fluffly enough for me. You are correct that PER, etc. does not accurately reflect all there is to know about a basketball game. This is not baseball. But I want to examine your argument, as opposed to concluding glibly that stats are imperfect, ergo you’re right.

Specifically, your point is that PER does not capture Iverson’s value, because you think he often creates high percentage shots for teammates without getting an assist. Thus, PER understates his value. If this were the case, we would expect to see little relationship between a player’s being an elite “defense deformer” and said player having a high PER. PER, we hypothesize, must care aobut something else (high TS%, rebound rate, whatever) – and as a null case, we’d expect some players who create high percentage shots for teammates to have these qualities and some not to possess them. In other words, we’d expect to see little correlation between qualitatively-assessed defense-deformation and PER. (That is, unless you think there’s something specific about AI’s game vs. every other putatively elite ball-dominating, driving guard’s that makes him more likely to create high percentage shots and yet not get credited with an assist on the play. The standard of proof for such a claim is very high, as there is no reason to suspect Iverson is a special case).

Let’s see if there is any evidence in the data for this. Here’s a list of elite ball-handling types who put pressure on defenses and who we would both more or less agree tend to create high percentage shots for their teammates:
Chris Paul
LeBron James
Dwyane Wade
Kobe Bryant
Tony Parker
Rajon Rondo
Deron Williams
Devin Harris
Steve Nash
Manu Ginobili

All of these players are quick players, who handle the ball well, excel at getting in the lane, and could be said to “deform defenses.” Let’s check out their PERs and see if they appear random.

LeBron – 32.5
CP3 – 30.5
D Wade – 29.0
Kobe – 25.1
Devin Harris – 24.8
TP – 23.6
Manu Ginobili – 21.2
Rondo – 18.7
Nash – 18.2
Deron Williams – 16.5

Indeed, the best ball handling types tend to have well above-average PERs. Allen Iverson is below all of them at 16.3. And only Williams is close to him on the list. It’s worth noting that PER has Williams’ assist rate much higher than Iverson’s (35.9 vs. 21.6). So we can rule out that they were similar b/c both tended to have “unscored assists” – PER explicitly recognizes that Williams created more points for his teammates and must rank him similarly to AI for other reasons.

To reiterate, PER tends to LOVE players you would call “defense deformers.” For some reason it does not love AI. In conclusion, there is no reason to think that the Tayshaun anecdote you are fond of telling happens to AI any more than it does to Chris Paul, Dwyane Wade, or Darko. The reason these “defense deformers” have better PERs than AI is that they are superior offensive players.

And don’t get anyone started on defense.

Paul M is alluding to perhaps the most compelling case that AI sucks. We used to have a good offense. Now AI uses a ton of our possessions and we do not. Oh crap my bad. This is actually just everyone else regressing, as Chauncey is not as good as AI, and AI has been secretly creating lots of high % shots for people that they’ve just been booting. Despite overwhelming statistical evidence both on an individual level and team level that AI is not a great offensive player, take my word for it. I mean come on – he’s going to the Hall of Fame! Do you even realize how many shoes he sells?

Bench Rasheed instead. That might solve the problem.

but the results on defense and rebounding speak for themselves.>>

You are correct the result speak for themselves particularly Okur’s performance in the first 4 minutes of Q1 before Johnson, who was trying to guard, “Baby Fats” and couldn’t even stay with him. How many points in Baby Fats get in those 4 minutes? Too many.

I say Johnson to the end of the bench or trade him.

couldn’t agree more with matt’s analysis

I like slam dunk shots. AI can’t dunk. Nuff said.

LIES!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvI_iTbgTwU

Rob G: The fact that Yinka Dare is behind that mix instantly raises questions about the video’s impact. Could AI’s dunking from this video just be a ton of unrealized potential like an unnamed gigantic African center?

I don’t make the soundtracks or the mixes, I just expose lies from down under!

It could be a Boomer conspiracy to undermine our American ballers and supplant us with a terrorist regime of Patrick Mills and Andrew Bogut. The horror…

Could you imagine a world where we wear green and gold and our basketball mascots are koalas, bandicoots, and gliding possums? This is the world our friend Laughton wants to see. I, for one, will not have it.

all this talk about who is better at getting others open shots, i’d just like to point out who is the best on the team and imo one of the best in the league at hitting open shots. mr. rip hamilton.

i’d also like to point out that he’s still considered one of the best in the league at moving WITHOUT the ball. getting himself open shots without needing the ball in his hand.

this whole debate is stupid. you want to know why, because stuckey and ai are virtually the same. one of THOSE TWO should come off the bench. but we won’t bench stuckey because we all secretly think he’s better than ai, and we won’t bench ai because, as always he’s ai, and nobody puts ai in the corner.

rip said what he said because he realizes like i do, that asking him to sit and not stuckey or ai is bs, it isn’t sound strategy-wise. regardless of all the other reason’s it’s bs.

Calm down Rob G, I swear there is no conspiracy of world domination by Aussie ballers, yet. Also don’t forget the Platypus, that is one messed up animal.
Patty Mills does not approve of the tone of your post.

Rob G: Don’t forget Nathan Jawai, he was supposed to be some sort of Australian Superman. He didn’t think it was necessary to come to America for college. I guess he didn’t have the heart for the level of competition like Bogut and Oglivy do.

Right, right… Jawai. Part of a triumvirate of domination.

I’m sure Laughton recognizes that I am joking around.

Mate, as long as you leave Paul Hogan out of this it’s okay. That bloke is a national bloody treasure.

@Laughton:
Paul Hogan, Paul Hogan, Paul Hogan… oh wait, Hulk Hogan’s son?

Yeah, the kid on Hogan Knows Best

Err wait, he was on Hogan’s Heroes I think.

I thought Hulk Hogan’s son was named Brooke.

Didn’t Brooke Hogan die from rough sex?

No, I’m thinking of Bob Crane. Sorry.

Rip hardly comes off screens anymore, all he wants to do is jack 3’s and try and make things happen off the dribble. If Rip is going to start I want him playing like he used to.

Just had a bit of an interesting discovery. In re: Petey’s argument, “deforming defense” is something that isn’t necessarily recorded statistically, and thereby undervaluing AI’s performance (and obviously justifying the fact that he can’t get the round thing to go into the circular thing in the first three quarters of any game). So I looked at video, at pictures, at as much as I could to find some evidence of how Iverson deformed defenses and to actually share this evidence here.

I was startled when I found this image. Look closely— you can clearly see how his footwork is deforming the defense of his man, and how he uses his head to further deform the defense of his competitors. Its almost like you can visually see the (say it with me) “defense deforming” as he plays. Take a close look:

http://www.vipwallpaper.com/data/media/1211/Allen_Iverson_001.jpg

Around his feet and head, you can clearly see the defense deforming. Its amazing.

They needed a special camera to see that… like the ones they use to find ghosts…

@Rob G:
“Didn’t Brooke Hogan die from rough sex?”

No that was Dave Coulier. He’s Australian, I think. Or something like that.

Australians and their rough sex shakes head

Post-coital donkey punching is like the Australian version of burping to thank the chef after a good meal.

Didn’t Coulier date a Canadian? that would mean that the conspiracy is spreading!

True story: Alanis Morisette’s 1996 hit “You Oughta Know” was written about her recent ex-boyfriend Dave Coulier. (including the line about the theater)

This is getting out of hand. Bench AI!

If it aint rough it aint right!

I have an infallible new theory. Most great nba teams that win titles have featured an elite outside shooter with a really high ts%: john paxson, steve kerr, ray allen, chauncey billups, derek fisher, etc. These players deform the defense by stretching defenders out and unclogging the lane. There is no telling how many “assists” they actually deserve credit for, due to the attention they attract on every play. We cannot therefore begin to analyze their impact statistically, as we could never properly credit them for all these assists.

I conclude that ray allen is the best offensive player in the nba, and there is no possibility that it is otherwise.

@Laughton:
“If it aint rough it aint right!”

You just won this thread, sir.

"If it aint rough it aint right!"

Try explaining that to the wife.

I mean look at the cavs: pre-mo williams, they never came close to a title, getting crushed by the spurs in 2007. Now that they have mo they are leading the nba in offensive efficiency and are a favorite to win the title. Mo williams is the best player on cleveland.

See what I did there? I created an arbitrary criterion for greatness, ignored all others, and will call any team that doesn’t have such a shooter a black swan! It’s fool proof!

Rippy and Sheed made it through practice today. Judgment day looms.

Coulier is very close to being from my hometown. My uncle knows him from high school ha.

Rban: there’s a good chance that would happen. As has been mentioned, he has not (yet) played at the 2 with the traditional lineup and Stuck running the point. I think he could even be better: getting set up properly, and having open 3’s when Stuckey properly deforms the defense (which Chauncey doesn’t do..er..didn’t do here).

Yeah Laughton, enjoy your southern hemispheric day in the sun, that was an excellent line

Greg: Didn’t Stuck & Rip start together for the two games after the trade? (I wanna say CHA & TOR?) AI wasn’t eligible yet since Chaunce hadn’t reported to Denver yet. We won both I think.

Looks good to me:
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=281103030
and
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=281105028

Ah yes, good point. Small ball must have wiped that from my memory. And that’s also with pre-breakout Stuckey, and when the Raptors weren’t as bad. Bottom line, it deserves a chance.

Ai also didn’t start the one game he got suspended for missing you know what

Or rather not suspended, but punished with coming off bench

I think we should just get rid of all stats. Implement the deformed defense quantum physics model:

AI +gazillion points
Everyone else -megatrillion points

The model uses such a complicated formula to come to these numbers that no one understands it… not even it’s creator.

Isn’t megatrillion a decepticon?

Pistons are 4-0 after first 4 games of the season. Curry is the messiah.

Since when is sitting on a bench so bad? First of all, it’s not a bench. Those are extremely comfortable chairs. Second, the service is top-notch: you got water service, fresh towels, people to take care of your mouth guard. If you spit, or soil something, someone’s RIGHT THERE to clean it up. Plus, you get the best seats to see awesome NBA action!!! And, what seats offer the hope of you coming into a real live NBA game? The bench seats, of course! Finally, you’re paid millions of dollars to sit in those chairs! I want to sit the bench. Why shouldn’t they?

Um, wow.

Mike Payne: even Shaq doesn’t know what to think:
http://twitter.com/THE_REAL_SHAQ/status/1115023393

Eddy Curry is so hot right now.

“Come and touch it, Dave.”

Rob G.

THIS is the world Laughton wants us to see.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9H0lHtVQzU&feature=related

This thread has deformed into the best thread ever.

LB,

“I guess he didn’t have the heart for the level of competition like Bogut and Oglivy do.”

That’s cold man. Joking on the guy’s heart problems like that…

Where’s DeVon Hardin?

Plus, you get the best seats>>>

I don’t think those are the best seats at all unless you have a fondness for ocassionally trying to dodge players coming off the court or have their sweat splash on you when they run by.

No thank you.

The best seats in my opinion are at midcourt about between 10 and 15 rows up from the floor.

The view is the best because you can see more of what is gong on there than you can sitting at court level near the corner of the court.

(1) I agree that Laughton wins a thread, and he had some tough competition.

(2) Diablo, I know what you mean. I think, though, that people who call into sports radio aren’t necessarily huge baskeball fans, which means they may be responding to AI’s superstar reputation, or reacting negatively to what they see as Rip’s “bad attitude.”

(3) I don’t think the question should be, “who is better, Rip or AI?” but rather “who would be a better fit with the starters and who would be a better fit off the bench?” For reasons already stated by many, I think Rip is better with the starters — folks he’s used to playing with, a group with a more traditional point guard, etc. — and AI is better off the bench where he can be the focal point of the offense, create/innovate/freelance more, and play with a solid defender in Afflalo. Curry should have some flexibility, though. For example, I wouldn’t mind Rip starting, but maybe have AI in (at the offensive end) at the finish of close games.

(4) While this issue is important and it will be very interesting who starts in the next few games, I still think Detroit has a bigger issue at other positions. If the Pistons don’t get consistently good play out of two of the Amir/Kwame/Maxiell trio, and if they don’t find a way to cut Tayshaun’s minutes — seriously, is a backup SF really the hardest spot to fill on a team? — it doesn’t matter what happens with Rip and AI. Detroit will be good, but not good enough.

The last sentence from an article Drew Sharp @ Det Free Press: “If Iverson is as serious about doing whatever’s necessary for the team as he stated during his introductory press conference last November, he’ll see the positives of becoming the best sixth man in the league.”

You guys must be right, since drew sharp agrees:
http://www.freep.com/article/20090113/COL08/901130316/1051/SPORTS03/Iverson++not+Hamilton++should+come+off+the+bench

“he’ll see the positives of becoming the third best sixth man in the league."

Manu Ginobli and Jason Terry fixed that for Drew.

I think Iverson would get alot more calls if he were coming off the bench.

It almost seems to me like the staff doesn’t think AI coming off the bench is an option.

Yet I’ll bet his numbers go up and we win more games if our backcourt is Stuck and Rip and we give up the smallball.

Curry said he would not make any decision on the lineup until he knew for sure Hamilton was able to play. But then he added this: “It’s no secret that when we’ve got two bigs and Tayshaun (Prince) at small forward, we are at our best defensively. At the end of the day that is what is going to drive most of our decisions we make — which group is the best defensively.”

Decision has been made.

Boney: That’s cold? My mom thought it was funny. Hello, pot? Oh hey, it’s the kettle.

Petey: “A.I.’s strength has never been hitting jump shots. His strength is getting to the hoop and setting up shots for others on the court.”

Everyone else: “A.I sucks at shooting, so he sucks. A.I sucks.”

Seriously, I’m not going to be the one guy who’s with Petey, because, really, who the hell wants to be that guy… but this entire post is just two different arguments. You have one guy defending A.I.‘s strengths and everyone else arguing with him about stuff that he already has conceded that A.I. has never been that great at. Let’s just break it down to this:

Fact 1: Since A.I.‘s arrival his performance in the first 3 quarters of games (with a few notable exceptions) he has shot the ball terribly, played poor defense, and hasn’t played to his strengths as much or as notably as a player of caliber should.

Fact 2: In the fourth quarter of games, especially of late, A.I has had his hands on essentially every play inside the four minute mark – including several close wins on the road.

Now if anyone wants to argue those two points then you’re not watching the games. As far as calling him T.J Ford – well T.J Ford plays better that he does in quarters 1 through 3 – but T.J Ford doesn’t have the habit of taking over games and dictating every possession in close victories. That was seriously a stupid thing to say. Good thing this is pretty much Kevin’s site now. A lot of the post on here just sound incompetent. To argue for A.I. to come off the bench is fine, probably correct – but for the consensus to be that he completely “sucks” – just sounds stupid.

I think we also have to keep in mind that Rip has not been playing as well as he normally does – as can be said about Prince and Rasheed as well. Personally, I don’t think small ball died. Yes, we started Amir and Kwame – but at Utah Amir played 8 minutes, most of the games in this injury stretch Kwame and Amir are putting in way less minutes that Rasheed would by himself. Meaning? Meaning we are still playing small ball. Who’s picked up the injury minutes? The starters for one. Aron Afflao for another. At the end of games it’s been Stuckey, AI, AA, Prince and McDyess. This is still small ball. Statistically the small ball lineup is our best offensive unit. Personally, I think the rebounding didn’t improve because small ball died (because it didn’t) but because McDyess and Amir rebound the basketball and Rasheed Wallace doesn’t. Rasheed averages less than 1 offensive rebound per 36 minutes. That’s worse than Kwame, Maxiel, Amir, McDyess, Prince – anyone that tries to rebound. His defensive rebound rate is also below the other four bigs and Prince. If you look at the minutes Maxiel’s minutes didn’t go up after Rip and Sheed went down. They should of, yes, they didn’t. And again, Kwame and Amir weren’t totaling Rasheed’s minutes – yet, it seemed as though we were playing better interior defense and rebounding (beyond just the opening six minutes). The reason is not the death of small ball – it’s the death of a playing one of the worst rebounding C in the league. Seriously, how could small ball died if we were giving bigs less minutes? OK, then why did rebouding and defense improve… well, who was missing? With that being said I like Rip and A.I. to stay in the lineup and have Amir move in for Rasheed. Feed the post with the second unit with McDyess and Sheed. Next option would be Prince. Prince is the guy that only plays well when the other players are out. Seriously, he average like 26 when a starter is down or in foul trouble and 10 when we’re at full strength – maybe putting him off the bench would trick his mindset – although he’s our best defender, so that’s tougher. If it’s just Rip or A.I… at this point it seems like A.I. on defensive merits alone should be on the bench, but should play during the 4th quarter of close games.

I love how everyone on here is like "A.I shoots for shit, turns it over, can’t play defense, makes bad passes, is the poor man’s T.J. Ford, but he should dominate the ball off the bench and still play around 30-40 minutes a game, and he could be in the leagues top 3 sixth men, if not the best…

Yeah, making a lot of sense. Because if I think a guy sucks so bad he shouldn’t be a starter mostly because of his defense and poor shooting then I want him to have free range with the second unit and have him still playing starter minutes.

Make a choice: if you think he’s as bad as all of these annoying posts (which at times he is, I’m not arguing that) then why think he should lead our second unit and still play starter minutes?

@Kevin S.: NOOOOOOOOO!

Um. Antonio McDyess thinks T.J. Ford brings a lot to a basketball team, encouraged Eddy Curry on his dieting by taking him out for a lunch at Souper Salad, doesn’t personally favor rough sex but believes in “live and let live,” and politely encouraged AI that setting his feet better could improve his jump shot. Even he thinks Petey is annoying though.

@Juicebox- you seem to think you’ve pointed out a fatal flaw in everyone’s logic of wanting to bring AI off the bench. So let’s make the logic as simple as possible: Taking defense into account, Rip and Stuck are better than AI, because they are better they should be the starters. Does phrasing it that way make you happier?

If one is taking defense into account than Afflalo should start with Stuckey and both Rip and AI should come off of the bench until one of them can be traded.

Curry said he would not make any decision on the lineup until he knew for sure Hamilton was able to play. But then he added this: "It’s no secret that when we’ve got two bigs and Tayshaun (Prince) at small forward, we are at our best defensively. At the end of the day that is what is going to drive most of our decisions we make — which group is the best defensively."

Decision has been made.>>>
====
Hopefully it is Kwame and not “Foul A Minute” Johnson who gets the nod to start. Kwame is terrible but at least he takes up space and can generally stay out of foul trouble.

Baby Fats continued his hot shooting last night which started against Johnson on Saturday night. He put up 43 points and grabbed 9 rebounds in only 28 minutes last night.

I have never liked the Pistons signing of Sheed in the summer of 2004 rather than Baby Fats. They couldn’t afford both.

Next summer the Pistons will probably have a chance to rectify that error and sign Baby Fats rather than Sheed as they will be free agents at that time

Kwame can be a serviceable big man as long as he can catch more passes than he drops (which isn’t always the case). I like his ability to get the other team’s big man in foul trouble (even though he bricks his free throws). And he can set some great screens for Rip and AI because he’s a gigantic monster 3 times the size of anybody else on the roster. If he grabs a few boards, alters some shots, and gets some slam dunk shots of his own, I’m a happy camper.

Gabe, I think you still missed the point of JB’s post. In stating why AI should be coming off the bench, most of the posts turn into “AI sucks”, leading petey and others to defend AI’s game. As an NBA fan and a Stones fan, I like AI. Most of the posters here either don’t like AI, or don’t like AI the piston. I don’t see the point of killing him for the rest of the season after each loss. The same ol wasn’t getting it done the last 4 years or this year, and the dice were rolled with AI. Saying it’s his fault for every problem with the team, from the starting lineup to the final box is dumb. And to matt’s opening comment “shoe-horned into the starting lineup at the expense of a player who actually fits the offense, has a track record of success in the system”, I’m pretty sure the system was shoe horned to fit Rip, not the other way around, and The System was LB’s and Flip’s, not Curry’s. Curry’s is small ball. So it doesn’t really pertain to the current situation.

Garrett: Admit it, you love it when Kwame tries to take it to the hole from the foul line. One out of ten times it results in a beautiful and athletic bucket, but the other nine times it’s cringe-inducing.

LB: Haha! I can totally picture it in my head. Followed by me screaming, “WTF KWAME!!!!!!!!!” That’s almost as bad as the jumper he took from about 15-feet out in the Denver game because the shot clock was winding down and K-Mart yelled out, “OH HELL NO!!!!!”

@Craig- I think I got the point of JB’s post… My point was you can disagree with some people’s reasoning/motives for arguing that AI needs to come off the bench, but that doesn’t mean what they are ultimately arguing for is wrong. In this case, if someone (JB) is gonna act like Pistons fans aren’t giving AI a fair shake, I think the best response is- if Rip and Stuck are better overall players than AI, then that is reason enough for them to be the starters.

AI coming off our bench, with the starting five we already have, would make the rest of the East SHIT themselves. We’d have pretty much no real flaws (having the fewest TO’s in the NBA offsets the sihtty FG% we put up). We’re back to giving up under 90 ppg, which will only get better with Rip guarding people’s 2’s. And our dreaded second quarter dropoff will be cured with the 3rd leading scorer of all time leading the Charge of the Misfits.

And Juicebox agrees with you, gabe, in that rip should start, “To argue for A.I. to come off the bench is fine, probably correct”.

In 2004, my last summer in Ann Arbor, I attended a Piston game in which Memo Okur posters were given out to the first X-thousand fans.

I received a poster, and hung it up in my living room at home following the game.

For good measure, I autographed the poster with a Sharpie, “Mehmet Okur #13. GO TURKEY!!!”

Throughout the 2004 Playoff run, from the Billups off-the-glass half court shot vs. Jersey to Ben Wallace slamming it home off the glass in game 5 of the Finals, the one constant was the repeated compliments on my awesome Mehmet Okur autographed Go Turkey! poster. His white dorkish antics during the trophy presentation only further solidify my desire to see a new memo to detroit asap.

Gabe-Nowhere in my post did I say that I think A.I. should start over Rip. I don’t even think that. My post really had two points.
1. Petey and everyone else on here are having two different arguments against one another and it makes both sides come off stupid when in actuality I think both sides are right and just like to argue. I mean Petey’s not claiming A.I. doesn’t have flaws, his shooting being one, and I hope that A.I. critics do realize that A.I. took over/was handed the games at LA, Portland, Denver and we won two of the three because of his play – which was not flawless, but did win the games.
2. Small ball didn’t really die when instead of playing Rasheed heavy minutes and McDyess mid-range minutes we went from playing McDyess mid-range minutes and Amir and Kwame a handful of minutes. The only real difference was that Amir and Kwame rebound the basketball to give the allusion that small ball died. In truth, the end of games it has usually been AI-Stuckey-AA-Prince-McDyess – which is still small ball – we just haven’t started games that way – but our 1st quarter offense has been good all season – it’s Q2 and Q4 where we seem to struggle.

@Craig, JuiceBox:
“Most of the posters here either don’t like AI, or don’t like AI the piston.”

“but for the consensus to be that he completely "sucks" – just sounds stupid”

I must be reading a different blog. While I can only speak for myself, I’d assume that the vast majority of those who are arguing for AI to come off the bench not only like Iverson, they like him as a Piston.

I remain happy that we made the Billups/Iverson trade. I’m glad to see Iverson in a Pistons uniform. I think he is a better player than Rip Hamilton. Hell, he’s been a better all-around human this season (hamilton’s personality has been a bit ugly this season).

Here’s what “sucks” about Iverson. He’s no better to this team in its current form than Flip Murray (4th quarter slaughter!) was. We all know what Iverson’s strengths are:
"A.I.’s strength has never been hitting jump shots. His strength is getting to the hoop and setting up shots for others on the court."

But that ain’t happening. He’s not going to the hoop. He’s not hitting his shots. He’s not getting to the free-throw line. In the last 8 games, he has been nothing short of abysmal. And if we needed a guy to come in and clean up for the 3 quarters of garbage behind him, again— Flip Murray would be awesome.

What the “consensus” is here, and what “Most of the posters here” feel is that AI’s strengths would be better suited to coming off the bench. That’s it. If there’s anything more than that, any complaints or bitching or otherwise, its either been a) frustration after a loss where AI didn’t play well or b) in the face of our friend Petey who has his fingers firmly stuck into his ears, yet keeps on talking.

Our bench sure could use someone to “deform the defense”, but our starters w/o AI happen to include 2 all stars, a gold medalist and a 40 point sophomore stud. Those guys don’t need anything “deformed” for them to find the bottom of the basket.

“To argue for A.I. to come off the bench is fine … but for the consensus to be that he completely "sucks" – just sounds stupid.”

Word.

I’m actually semi-agnostic about who should start. I’ve been repeating pretty endlessly since I got here that the starting five is somewhat meaningless, that the starting rotation only determines the first five minutes of the game, and that it’s the overall 48 minute rotations that actually matter.

If I were Mike Curry, I’d start Iverson because he’s going to play significantly more minutes than Rip, so if Rip starts, it begins to limit the rotations you can use for the rest of the game. But there are still viable rotation patterns with Rip starting – it just means less flexibility for the final 42 minutes of the game. But it definitely could be done.

However, in this thread, I’ve been pretty much exclusively addressing the kind of know-nothing idiocy of Matt Watson’s screed.

The actual topic how the 48 minute rotation should be organized is quite a bit more subtle, requires honestly addressing the effectiveness of how various players fit together against good teams, requires an understanding of spacing issues, and requires an audience with enough grasp on the game to understand the limited importance of the starting lineup.

One thing I’ll note is that the general concept of Iverson playing better “with the second unit” misses the mark. Iverson needs Tay and/or Stuckey on the floor with him for the team to be most effective, and he can get more bang out of Rasheed than any other configuration can. (Rasheed is actually close to a perfect Iverson companion because he’s always ready to catch and shoot before the defense can recover. As Macrophenomenal correctly notes, dude is a pop-up toaster. And maximizing Iverson – which is Mike Curry’s mission if we’re going to win a title – demands players on the floor with him who can make use of the advantages he creates which only exist for a very brief moment.)

The fact that Iverson can get his shot off if he’s playing with four guys from the rec center doesn’t mean the Pistons would play effective basketball like that. The only kernel of truth here is that Afflalo works well with Iverson, but that’s one guy, not the whole “second unit”.

“However, in this thread, I’ve been pretty much exclusively addressing the kind of know-nothing idiocy of Matt Watson’s screed.”

Wow. You are very dumb sir.

i’d like to deform whoever introduced that annoying term to this blog.

I’m with Le JuiceBox, the majority of arguments have been wishy-washy at best; not to get all soap boxy, but sometimes it seems the attack-dog thinking is coming from minds who have yet to truly immerse themselves in real-life bball games. There comes a time when you simply have to own up to whether you have or have not ever touched a Spalding?

Certainly positives and negatives (FG efficiency vs. childish demeanor and increasingly toxic attitude) for both players, yet it is painful to see one player disparaged in one sentence only to have his attributes toted in the next. Borderline senseless, let the chips fall where they may, the best unit on the floor will show themselves, and the Cavs are overrated.

I can get disagreeing with M. Watson’s post. I don’t necessarily agree with the tone (esp. the TJ Ford part) but why be a dick about it? The guy runs a pretty awesome site. Manners are appropriate for the internets too.

“I’ve been pretty much exclusively addressing the kind of know-nothing idiocy of Matt Watson’s screed.”

I think “know-nothing” is a pretty fair assessment. After all, its not like Matt Watson makes his living as a sportswriter, watches ever home Pistons game from press row, interviews the players and the coaching staff and knows them on a first name basis… Matt Watson clearly is not qualified to make comments like that, and thereby should be sacked.

MP: After re-reading the post I guess no one said that A.I. “sucks” as I did write – other than Brad who wrote it several times giving me the impression there were multiple idiots except for just one. That was my bad.

However, it was suggested several times by several different people that he is the weaker player of Stuckey and Hamilton. And this too, is just as absurd as saying he sucks. Again, I support A.I. on the bench over Hamilton, so I’m with the majority – but it’s not a question of talent or who’s “better.” To honestly say Stuckey is better at doing the things Iverson is good at, which has been written on this post, is insane. I like Stuckey but to say he is at an A.I level right now is ignorant. And Hamilton is like the anti-thesis to McDyess. He seriously is one of the least likable players in the league – just an impossible guy to defend for me.

So, yeah no one is writing the he “sucks”. We’re just comparing him to T.J. Ford, Darko Milicic and Flip Murray. Because Flip Murray use to lead us in scoring and assists – that’s right, I remember that. Oh, but his leading in scoring doesn’t count because he shoots 4% under the other starters, that’s right.

FG%? He’s 4% under the other starters. So, he’s make 4 less shots than the rest of the starters per 100 shots – but he makes, on average, 4 more free throws per game – which would more than makeup for the 4 shots missed per 100. I mean, I’m with everyone about A.I. to the bench – but we root for a team where McDyess is our only offensive option that shoots over 47% – so FG%, shooting in general, not the best attack on A.I (because you can say it about our entire starting lineup). I’d stick with his inconsistent and when it’s bad it’s really really bad defense.

Mike Payne, are you Robin?

@wolf blitzer:
Robin? Hmm, the only nickname I have is “Daddy”, and that’s what your lady calls me. Never heard “robin” though.

wolf blitzer would comment but he is checking himself out of this board for a good while and into an ICU because he was unaware that Mike PainTrain Don’t Call Me Robin tossed out 3rd degree burns.

@Juicebox:
Fair enough, I see your reasoning. And I agree with you about Rip, he has been the Anti-Dyess. Iverson, on the other hand, has shown impeccable character as a Piston aside from the Thanksgiving practice fowl up.

My comparison to Flip Murray, Matt’s comparison to TJ Ford and others need to be tempered here. Are those players better than Iverson? No way in hell. Never. But since Rip went out, Iverson has been playing worse than those players. That is why I mentioned Flip Murray— and while I can’t speak for him, why Matt mentioned TJ Ford.

@Juicebox- I think Mike Payne spelled it out well, but its worth reiterating… People have been comparing AI to people who suck because… Lately he’s been sucking. If he wasn’t sucking, then those unflattering comparisons would go away.

You Pistons fans need to realise that this isn’t about who’s done what or who’s going to be on the team next year, or even who deserves it.It’s about coming up with a rotation that gives the team the best chance of winning.Apart from when you had Billups (great trade by the way) the teams done it’s winning lately with Rip out.Considering moving him to the bench is a logical move.

Laker players (and the fans) get this stuff.Thats why the lakers are the lakers and the pistons are the pistons.
Enjoy your first round exit to atlanta while watching Iverson try to take over….if he does happen to get hot in round one then enjoy getting swept by Boston,orlando or cleveland.Serves you right for trading a player like Chauncy for what is effectively cap space.

LB,

I would never jone on someone’s heart condition man… I thought even a douche like you would back off the jokes about a man’s heart.

I bet your mom thought it was funny, and that’s as far as I’ll go with the momma jokes.

Tell me though, where’s UBERPROSPECT DeVon Hardin at these days? How’s Mouhamed Sene doing? Johan Petro? How are all those no name big men doing that are supposedly better than Amir Johnson?

Did you work out a trade yet to try and sneak Thaddeus Young onto Detroit’s roster as a throw-in?

@ MikePayne

I’ll compare AI to Flip Murray in this fact only:

1. They both dribble out the shot clock and force irrational shots to avoid a shot clock violation.

I think that’s a platform that everyone can get behind.

I think AI should be coming off the bench … Allen can create his own shot, and the Zoo Crew would play better off him. Rip needs time to get into his groove and a true point guard. Another option is trading Iverson. Imagine how much value we can get for him.

LOL- can I just say, I always thought the stereotypical “dumb/arrogant laker fan” was a myth, but I guess all myth’s have some basis in truth…

@LakersFan

Get thee back under the bridge, troll!

And quit deforming this thread.

Hey Gabe I’m more than happy to hear about how dumb I am if you give me reasons or disagree with my logic.All this talk of insulting Rip but I’ll tell you what the real insult is…that Dumars didn’t do something with this team years ago.Fair enough not resigning Ben wallace but it was clear they would never truly contend after that.

Not one of the last three seasons could they have won a title.I looked over at the pistons and went ‘yawn good but not good enough’.You know that if you are honest with yourself – so Dumars makes the decision to let Big Ben go (even though he had a contending team for another 2-3 years insulting his other guys….fair enough if he couldnt compete with chicagos offer but he needed to do something right there to remain a contending team…You had four experienced vets with a range of skills and the best backcourt in the NBA.Maybe they should have tried to package Rasheed Wallace and Prince for a top notch inside presence or something.You might have got something back given how overrated wallace seems to be round the league.Who knows? its not my job to know but Dumars sat on a team that was one step away from contending for three seasons…THEN his answer is to blow it up by trading away Billups so you can be average for two more seasons in the hope of landing some big free agent all becasue he’s obsessed with some project point guard? All the guys in the core of that team were good – still are.Sure you needed a change but trade Billups for cap space for 2010 at this point? This is a classic case of self delusion.That team was always a step away but THOUGHT they were championship calibre.Instead of just finding a way to improve and tweak what he had he blew it all up.

And as a laker fan I can talk…we broke up a dynasty and were contending again three seasons later.No messing around we know when we are good enough and we’re not.
So call me dumb on what basis Gabe? becasue I say detroit is going nowhere in the east this season? open your eyes.

LOL upset pistons fans…sorry but theres a price to pay for a starring role on truehoop.But I think I’ll keep popping by from time to time.But I’m not a real troll random abuse isnt my thing…just long winded logic.

Go Lakers!

Kobe Bryant deserved the MVP last season as much as Steve Nash deserved his two.

@LakerFan:
“we broke up a dynasty and were contending again three seasons later”

No you didn’t, we broke up that dynasty for you. Thanks for playing though!

“Laker players (and the fans) get this stuff.Thats why the lakers are the lakers and the pistons are the pistons.”

Thank God, it’s this way because if I was a Laker’s fan I would still be losing sleep over getting my ass kicked in the ’04 Finals.

Birdman…who deserved it more then? got us the best record in the conference at the business end of the season.Was still the best player in the league then (he’s not now) no brainer…and nash deserved his too.its just an unfortunate historical fact that he’s a back to back MVP winner.

Mike Payne…Yeah nice work.You’re boys sure enjoyed their one title strutting around like they were champs for the next FOUR years! I’d be happy to let you believe that you ended our dynasty but in the interests of truth ’04 was the end of the run whatever happened – the Kobe and Shaq thing was done,contracts up etc.In fairness to detroit it was a great performance in the playoffs that year…particularly by um Chauncy Billups in the finals.

@Joel

Get a new name, kid.

@Laker Fan:
“but in the interests of truth ‘04 was the end of the run whatever happened – the Kobe and Shaq thing was done,contracts up etc”

If you guys could actually have beaten Detroit in that series (for some reason something you guys just never seem to be able to do), you can’t tell me you wouldn’t have worked out those contracts. You don’t win a title and then shake things up, that’s not how it works. So yeah, we destroyed that nice little dynasty for you. Apparently, you’re sore enough to come here and try and pick a fight on a competitor’s blog? I mean, what’s the point of that?? :)

Hm. So it was delusion when we came one game away from going back-to-back in ‘05? That was delusion? And we never had a chance of winning a finals when we averaged 57.5 wins per season over the past four years? It was delusion that we were the most consistent team in the league? If that’s true, then certainly there’s another team who averaged that many then, right?

How about this – the only reason your team is good is because you copped some bullshit trade to get Gasol from the Grizzlies. If not for that, the Lakers would have been treading water with a .500 team, Kobe would have milked his finger injury until he either got his trade or opted out at the end of this year, which would have plenty more 34 win seasons in store. Some rebuilding. And you remember that 34 win season right? The year after the title? Oh yeah, Lakers fans only cheer for their team when it’s good. Forgot about that.

/fun with trolls

LF, not everyone’s picking up all star centers for french fries, either. That’s why you’re the lakers and we’re the pistons. And if you’re into defending GM’s, tell me about Vlad’s contract. Or how you managed to employ the softest front court in the league, have it rubbed in your face by the C’s, then, wait for it, not do anything. You THINK you’re a championship contender.

MP: In Laker Fan’s defense, they did beat us in 1988. Unfortunately for them, that makes the Lake Show 1-2 in the Finals againt the Stones, but they’re still 0-2 in the NBA Finals since 2003. At least the Stones are batting .500 in the Finals and haven’t missed a conference finals, let alone the playoffs since then (Good one in ‘04-’05, Lakers). And to think, I was starting to get soft on them from living in LA and root for the Lakers when they play Boston. I forgot they can both stick it.

Mike… I’ll be straight with you son.I have absolutely no life.

I’m not sure I agree with you there – look at the Chicago Bulls.The front office couldn’t get it done off the court so MJ retired and that was that.But your opinion is valid enough but the general feeling in LA is that it was over regardless.Payton sucked,Malone was hurt Shaq/Kobe was at an all time low.They weren’t going to retool around those two.Shaq was demanding ridiculous money and in a shrewd financial decision we got rid of him.Imagine if we still had his fat butt under contract now? to boot I dont see Kobe signing a big long term deal with Shaq on the team.He was ready to shuffle his career along and try his MJ thing.
But well done for cashing in on the end of our run.I certainly dont sleep as well with Mr Big Shot in the west…

LB:
I wish I could say it surprises me that you’re defending a Laker troll that comes here to talk shit, but it doesn’t.

Craig: I still think the Pau trade was good for both sides. That being said, Pau is too soft. What LakerFan doesn’t realize, is assuming it comes to it LeBron will eat the Lakers alive in the Finals. The Lakers have no defensive stopper. Every champion these days has at least one. Ask Bowen, Posey, any ‘03-’04 Piston or even that guy Lindsey Hunter who was on the Lakers in 2002. Hell, ask Mark Madsen and Horace Grant about 2001, or Tyronn Lue and AC Green back in 2000. Who’s gonna stop Pierce or LeBron this year? Trevor Ariza? Ha.

Craig

That Gasol trade was a perfectly legit deal (decent expiring contract for a rebuilding team and what these media types wont bring to your attention after harping on about it so much is the play of Marc Gasol…all involved knew he’d be good…and you contradicted yourself…you said it was daylight robbery but also believe Gasol is soft..um Okay…The idea of the lakers being soft thing is an overhyped myth anyway and just to completely destroy your argument that we got smoked by the nouveau riche’s in the finals then didn’t do anything…WELL we added one of the better centres in the league in Bynum.Our GM did made mistakes, Teams always will…Caron Butler for Kwame,signing Radmanovic (obviously) and giving Walton so much money.You are gonna make mistakes… but they did hold true to their game plan despite incredible pressure from the media,fans and eventually the mamba.They decided to wait for the right deal instead of making a move for the sake of it to keep fans interested or buy time.They waited for a realistic trade…a little two long for some people but got the right deal in the end.You cant tell me this AI deal was the ‘right deal’ Dumars has been sitting on this for 4 years? come on.The media haven’t caught up with him yet but Dumars has done a bad job and pardoned from his one title and his likeable team.They’ll get him in the end.
By the way how is kwame at 4 mil a year working out for you?

Lawyerboy

Thats becasue we don’t get to play you much in the finals…only the once in our five trips this decade.I’ll take a 3-2 record for the decade thanks.

By the way thanks for your support last finals.Hope you’ll cheer again this year.You can’t be too wild about the Cavs by now either.

“By the way how is kwame at 4 mil a year working out for you?”

I’m quite happy with how it has turned out, actually.

Lakerfan, you are acting like Pistons’ fans ran Billups out of town. No one I know and mostly, everyone on this blog hated to see him leave. But a change was needed to be made and plus, Joe Dumars had made a promise he needed to keep during the summer.

And what’s the deal? Since Chauncey has left, people like you, act like the Pistons have been swimming under .500. But the reality is that we have been playing some pretty good basketball (still one of the top teams in the East) even with the transition to Iverson, Rookie coach, and injuries. And truth be told, there really is no problem with our team, it’s just the fact we are not used to so much change and differences.

I’m proud of Chauncey’s success out side of Detroit and the recognition he has gotten. So don’t be coming in here like Detroit’s worst move ever was getting rid of Billups, acting like we traded him to some division rival. He’s in a good place now and in a different conference, something that YOU should be more worried about than us.

"By the way how is kwame at 4 mil a year working out for you?"

“I’m quite happy with how it has turned out, actually.”

Same here, the guy is hardworker and another big body for teams to contend with.

Lakerfan: Remember when the Lakers beat the Pistons at Staples earlier this year? Can you remind me how that game went?

Wasn’t the Lakers last win in 02 (everyone keeps writing 03, isn’t spurs: 99, 03, 05, 07?)… so they waited 5 years to do something to really improve their roster (not making it to every confrence final in the meantime).

Our last win was 04… and Dumars did something bold this year to try to improve the team (and we have made it to the confrence finals every year since then).

I don’t even like Dumars, for the most part, and he wins this battle easily.

Diablo – agreed a deal needed to be made.Just not that one.If you read my argument above you’ll get the answers to your questions.The gist is they made a shoddy shotgun deal for an expiring contract.He sat on a not quite good enough team for FAR too long then made a cheap deal for a player who was never going to take you over the top…why did he nver improve this team after Ben Wallace left?
Its the Shaq to phoenix mentality – we’ll trade for a slightly washed up HUGE name so nobody will notice how bad the deal we are making ACTUALLY IS.

Dumars had a potentially great team on his hands and didnt make a move – then made a cheap marketing orientated move to try to hide it.

Pointing out Gasol’s flaws doesn’t contradict anything about the trade. I don’t have to say anything about that trade that hasn’t been addressed already, either. Adding one of the better young centers in the league was the fix? I like Bynum, but I don’t think he solves your “perceived” toughness issue. The AI trade probably wasn’t one that Joe D’s been waiting for, but I don’t believe that Kupcake "decided to wait for the right deal " and came up with Gasol. GM’s get lucky. As for Joe D’s moves, I don’t agree with all of them (he was too loyal to that core, imo), but since he’s been GM he got an executive of the year, title, 6 ecf’s and counting. I don’t think the media’s missed too much. Kwame’s 4 mil. will be workng just fine for me when it’s getting paid by another team. File it with, Mohammed, Nazr.

i know dumars got iverson just to get rid of chauncey to make room for stuckey, but this team is not looking good. iverson comes and it seems like hes getting star treatment as the locker room changes from the close-knit family it was as of earlier this season.rip deserves to start, and putting him on the bench for ai is unfair and definitely going to cause conflict

Mike Payne…I deserve better than troll status….and if my opinions are so bad then feel free to make me look stupid but crying ‘troll’ again and again doesnt cut it.You can do better than that.

lawyerboy – Pistons played a good game.Reminded me of when we beat you in ‘06 when we weren’t all that good.It was pleasant but ultimately meaningless.

Juiceboy Thats the whole point – he wants you to think its a bold deal to hide the fat he realises this team can’t contend anymore.He knew you wouldn’t get anywhere with Iverson,hell,he knew you wouldn’t get anywhere BEFORE Iverson.My point is he was content to be a good but not good enough team in a weak east all that time instead of aggressively trying to improve a team that was one good move away from being a true contender.You guys might think you were a true contender but after Ben Wallace left you clearly weren’t.No offence intended just bringing some reality.I’m telling you Dumars has done a bad job or a good job if you are trying to fill seats while be likeable.

I’m glad you like kwame.He is a good guy and a good teammate by all accounts (when he can hold on to the ball)… 4 mil a year is just a little too much for him in my opinion

@LakerFan:
“Mike Payne…I deserve better than troll status….and if my opinions are so bad then feel free to make me look stupid but crying ‘troll’ again and again doesnt cut it.You can do better than that.”

I called you a troll once. That’s what you do to a person that shows up on a blog to fire people up.

Craig…it was the teams overall mentality that needed to toughen up.Nobody brought it in the finals.Adding an ‘enforcer’ was not the answer.Time will tell…this team isn’t soft.They won big games in a rugged west against some physical teams last year.They just didnt quite expect to be favoured going into the finals and it showed….as far as this year goes? they are ready.Out of the 4 best teams right now… the team that has the best record in the NBA and home court will win the finals (unless its orlando who will be vulnerable in a finals setting)Of Boston,Cleveland LA all those three are too good to lose with home court.

And if adding a player was so important for us after a finals loss then surely you agree with me the pistons should have dome something after all those conference finals appearances? you dont lose big ben and truly beleive you are better do you?

Mike I’m here for genuine conversation not to fire people up.If my intention was to irritate everyone by deliberately talking rubbish then fair enough call me a troll but I just happen to hold different opinions.I’m sorry if they upset you.

You should go check out the LA times lakersblog if you want to see some true trolls although its been alright lately..and I cant believe how nice everyone is to each other here.lakers fans get really angry with each other…the civility of the bloggers here and the class with which Ive been treated is a surprise after watching that brawl but nevertheless will be an enduring memory for me when I think of pistons fans.I will be cheering for the pistons in the eastern conference playoffs.

Yours
lakerfan

Lakersfan – How were we supposed to add a player? Sure, we could try the pull an all star power forward still in his prime directly out of our asses, but I’m sure we would’ve if we could’ve. But see most teams either have to give up a quality player in order to acquire another quality player or acquire said player through free agency. So since we have to operate like most teams, we have to accumulate expiring contracts and make a run at Boozer, Bosh, or someone else as a free agent. Simple enough for you?

“I’m sorry if they upset you.”

The pain is intolerable.

“Apart from when you had Billups (great trade by the way) the teams done it’s winning lately with Rip out.Considering moving him to the bench is a logical move.

Laker players (and the fans) get this stuff.Thats why the lakers are the lakers and the pistons are the pistons."

Have you seen Iverson play during our winning stretch? He’s shooting below 40% and is a liability on defense. Have you seen how much of a better fit AI is with our bench compared to Rip? You don’t watch our team on a daily basis like most of the people who comment here. This site is definitely the most knowledgeable Pistons fanbase on the internet and the vast majority of people here will tell you that they’d prefer AI to come off the bench over Rip.

Just to take my crack at it:

“By the way how is kwame at 4 mil a year working out for you?”

Dude. Do you watch the games? You have a home loss that is largely due to the efforts of the cake-slayer.

He’s excellent value at $4m for certain kinds of playoff matchups.

I think AI needs to come off the bench. If you start AI and Stuckey, it means we’re going to have an undersized SG on the floor to start the game. Plus, AI and Stuckey are going to compete for touches, and they’ll both be trying to do similar things on the floor when they have the ball. Our starting unit and our bench unit would both look a lot better with RIP in the starting 5 and AI coming off the bench. AI could do a great job of scoring for himself, and getting easier shots for our bench guys. This is in contrast to RIP’s game, which would be much less effective if he were playing with the bench unit.

Another point I forgot: everyone needs to realize that AI is gone after this year, there is no way he’s coming. So it makes sense to move him to the bench and allow our core guys (Stuckey, Tayshaun, RIP), to maintain their chemistry together in the starting five. If we move RIP to the bench and he starts sulking, this team could fall apart.

I’m pretty happy with Kwame so far. Although, strange as it is to say, I’d like to see him get more minutes.

Jim… thats why… um cough I wouldn’t have traded for him in the first place.However you’re quite right I am in no way qualified to make such a decision about who is better in the reserve role.Earlier I was merely trying to rationalise WHY Rip might be brought of the bench.Offhand Iverson would make more sense but my original point was that the focus should stay on what was best for the team not who deserves it,or has been there longer,or is making whatever money or whatever.That stuff is irrelevent.I dont know what would work better for the team but hopefully coach Curry does.

Shinons

I disagree.You can’t always get something for nothing although it can happen more than you think if you are prepared to wait.There are all kinds of circumstances all the time.There have been pistons players with value and tradeable contracts these past few years…a trade could have been made.as I pointed out a genuine inside presence for rasheed and prince t pair with Billups and hamilton in a genuine big three? how about a trade for Garnett? Did they look into adding J.O when he was unhappy? woulda been a bad move but you know?

For too long Dumars just thought he could get aways with not making a trade…in fact everyone still seemed to think the team could win so not his fault if they dont right?In fact a trade could be criticised becasue most fans are deluded enough to think the team could actually win…why risk criticism? Then when it became clear rumblings about changes started – he overeacted.There was no reason to panic and pull the trigger on a Billups trade…guys were getting along,winning…he could have waited to see what took shape instead went into rebuilding mode completely overnight.

he figures the Iverson factor adds enough interest and ‘hope’ factor to get through this year then by next year fans are thinking ’10 free agency. IF he can get a decent free agent and IF it works when he does..at best thats two lost seasons in the meantime on top of the two or three seasons he wasnt legitimately trying to win before.

No dumars was is resting on his championship laurels and not putting himself out.Iverson wasnt a ‘bold move’ to win now he was a distraction while Dumars decided to rebuild…something he didnt even need to do but he did need to make a move and saw this as one he wouldnt be criticised because of the Iverson factor and thr trend of freeing money up for the free agent bonanza but this isnt new york…your team didnt suck…why throw it all away like that? for as opposed to waiting for a move that could have genuinely improved the team.
Its a patience game.
its clear to me the pistons havent been playing to win…theyve been playing to be okay.Theyve been ‘satisfied’ with a likeable team and conference finals appearances in a weak east.Why make a move like that if Dumars really believed that team was good enough before.You’ve been had.

Laker’s fan,

You’re a jerkface. And this is coming from the guy that is usually criticizing others for going ad hominem. I say this not because you are criticizing Joe D, but because you say you:

“Mike I’m here for genuine conversation not to fire people up.If my intention was to irritate everyone by deliberately talking rubbish then fair enough call me a troll but I just happen to hold different opinions.I’m sorry if they upset you.”

Unfortunately you follow up with posts where you declare authoritatively that the Pistons are just ‘ok’ and that we’ve “been had”. Figure it out dude. Either you want to have civil conversation or you’re a troll who posts exaggerated declarative statements in order to, as MP said, get people fired up.

S my C,

Colin

Colin theres no need for that.I maintain im not being deliberately facetious.I have written in a polite and pleasant spirit.People have responded or asked me questions and Ive responded.Ive given clear explanations for my opinions and you are free to challenge them.Certainly theres some speculation in what I write but alot of it is pretty hard to argue with.I’m here to debate sure…but I’m not saying things that are nonsensical or that I dont believe in.I’m also trying to have a laugh…theres lighthearted attempts at clear humour.

I’m simply opening your eyes to the truth so you as fans can complain and demand something better.I’m sick of franchises that dont want to win.if you are the bobcats you try to entertain..
but the pistons? – you deserve better.yes I’m making a point but manytimes also trying to have a laugh with my pistons bretheren.

Anyway I wont stoop to your level and suggest you ‘S my C’ as you so kindly offered me.It wouldnt fit in your mouth anyway but practicalities and logistical issues aside theres no need to speak to me like that.I’m not that bad anyway.

So anyway my pistonfan friend.I will turn the other cheek even though it is stained with tears due to your hatred.

What a douche.

/Boney’d

I dont know from whence your anger comes Colin maybe it is the frustration in realising that championships will happen to fans of other teams or watching basketball played at its best level is something you only get to see from teams in darker colours a few times a year…maybe you are a victim the economic crises? or maybe you are intimidated by men who are comfortbale with the size and performance of their manhood?

Anyway Colin if you ever need to talk …im here.

“colours”? LF, you sure your handle shouldn’t be RaptorsFan? Or how aboot AussieRulesFootballFan? Who’s your favourite centre?

LOL @ people who talk about the size of their dick on messageboards.

I’ve got to be honest, I have no problem with the Lakers. The Pistons OWN them, regular and post season, so they’re never a threat. And as far as teams out west go, they’re who I enjoy watching the most. Just sucks that when we’re good again in like 2 years, they won’t be, so we don’t get to beat up on them in another Finals.

craig any colour is darker than the white home jerseys you wear even the colours purple and gold…no I am not a fan of aussie rules but I’m pleased you are making general conversation with me and trying to get to know me a little rather than merely making direct homosexual advances like before

LF, if you think that Gasol being soft banter from before was a direct sexual advance, you’ve been in la too long.

11-5

Pistons’ NBA Finals record all-time versus the Lake-show. And we were one Isaiah Thomas sprained ankle from being 12-4 w/ a three-peat of our own. Balls.

Craig… I was referring to your kind and uninhibited offer to ‘s your c’…I’m sorry I’m quite an attractive person and get hit on alot so I took it the wrong way.However I apologise for misreading you…While I like gay people and its certainly no insult to be mistaken for being so it can be embarassing for everyone so you might want to work on how you are coming across more generally to avoid such complications in the future.

I’m a badass. I’m really attractive and have a huge penis. Being as such, I love to go to rival NBA teams’ blogs and tell everyone about it. Did I mention my spelling skills aren’t really the greatest?

I R 2 Hott 4 U. Sounds like a Prince song about latently homosexual Laker fans.

Joel…cherry pick your statistics in whatever way makes you feel better.I’ll stick with the quantity of banners hanging in Staples overall thanks…

and to say you wouldve had a three peat is stretching things somewhat…wasn’t the lakers team banged up the following year when you won your first?

And wouldn’t we have won in 2004 if the mailman could’ve played?

You’re better than a statistics cherry picker and a ‘what if man’ Joel.

Hey Joel my spellings not too bad and I am typing quickly in order to respond as soon as I can to your posts and not keep you waiting…if you dont like my opinions Joel dont read them but theres no need to be abusive.I didnt start the personal stuff.I just wanted to talk pistons basketball.

and I can’t help being really attractive and ridiculously well endowed the same way I cant help the fact that the lakers are a great team and a storied franchise

Yo, LF, the offer was never extended. Not sure why you’ve confused me with collin, but maybe you’re flattering yourself. Also, good work by the young centre last night. Barely beating the ockets (they’re missing some pieces at the moment)doesn’t quite put the rest of the league on notice.

Just like I can’t help the fact that you seem to be overcompensating for something when you tell strangers on the Internet how big your ween is?

And, no, you wouldn’t have one in 2004 with a healthy Mailman. It wasn’t even close. People called it “the first five-game sweep in Finals history” for a reason. Last year? The Cavs and Pistons would’ve handled the Lakers in 6 games or less too. Lakers w/out Shaq = soft soft soft.

And if Wilt, Kareem, and Shaq had all decided to leave their current teams to go the Pistons, I’m sure there would be a few more banners hanging in the rafters. Unfortunately, Detroit’s film industry doesn’t exist, so it’s hard to pull in the HOF Center/budding Oscar winners from free agency.

Craig…Sorry about that – my mistake.Ive already admitted to a tendency to flatter myself.We are missing some pieces too – not a bad victory on the road during whats been a tough stretch with Kobe and Fisher going hard.Wasn’t the best win but we are 9-1 over our last ten with wins over some good teams.

better than a loss to the bobcats dont you think?
Yeah Bynums a project but we dont base our entire team and decisions around him at the moment like you do a certain young point guard.I agree with you though – to get one rebound is unnacceptable from him.

Not overcompensating Colin brought the weener conversation up I just wanted to be responsible and tell him that there were practical reasons holding me back from accepting his kind offer.

My mailman point was that once you start the coulda woulda shoulda game it gets silly – best left alone dont you think?

Just like you shouldn’t be so petty as to start criticising people on a blog for poor spelling when you cant spell yourself.You spelt the word ‘won’ incorrectly….no wonder you can win…you can’t even spell it!

Touche, my well-endowed, ever impressive, sexually ambiguous friend!