Thank you very much for this :)

Kevin, where did you find the scoring and defensive numbers for all of our different player groupings? Sorry if this seems like a stupid question.

Awesome post. It’s so obvious it’s not funny. I’m tempted to shell out a ton of money for a seat behind the Pistons bench just so I can slap Curry. I would get arrested and fined, but it would be well worth it.

Great great post Kevin!

Also, just wanted to say these numbers just make intuitive sense after watching the effects of smallball, first hand. Basically, for the ‘Stones, playing smallball means they will be a toss-up to win/lose at home against a random lottery team on any given night. Or, in other words, smallball turns the ’Stones themselves into a lottery team (hence Kevin’s ‘playing like a team with a record of 29-53’ line).

“Kevin, where did you find the scoring and defensive numbers for all of our different player groupings? Sorry if this seems like a stupid question.”

I simply took the point differential from the games. I didn’t have time (or the inclination) to dig into the internals. If the smallball scheme persists throughout the week, I might dig deeper.

I love it, and we all knew it!!!
Curry needs to grow some balls!!!

“Kevin, where did you find the scoring and defensive numbers for all of our different player groupings? Sorry if this seems like a stupid question.”

Hopefully from the same AI bible that Petey gets his stats from. Otherwise, this entire post is not accurate

Pay attention LB…
/sarcasm

Kevin, I actually fear finding out what the numbers look like for each player grouping. I worry that our best lineup only gets like 8 minutes a game or something incredibly stupid that Curry could figure out with 10 minutes of time and Microsoft Excel.

That was an excellent post. There is really nothing left to discuss. However, it appears that a bad loss to the Bobcats isn’t enough to convince Curry to start a “professional basketball” lineup. Check out his absurd post game comments.

“It’s a simple matter of getting your best five guys out there as much as possible,” said Pistons coach Michael Curry, adding that the lineup would stay the same Wednesday in Indiana.

I hope we some day find out that the Michael Curry era was all some elaborate plot to tank the season, end up in the lottery, draft the next big thing, dominate the next 10 seasons when LeBron accidentally jumps so high he floats away from the gravitational pull of the Earth.

We can hope… right… ?

wow, ben wallace and the cavs are undefeated at home and have 31 wins.

but gee, it’s so nice not to have ben wallace’s salary on our books, right?

chauncey’s so happy in denver he’s having facial pain from smiling all day every day. oh look, he just pulled out a win in the closing seconds against dallas.

that joe dumars. such a genius.

are you serious g…i mean cmon…..the pistons are in a much better spot than both of those teams

g has no clue

“CURRY NEEDS TO GROW SOME BALLS!!”

bc,

Don’t you think this is kind of harsh? I am sure he has balls. Their probably just small balls.

In my opinion, the Pistons should start Rasheed, McDyess, Tayshaun, Hamilton and Stuckey. This is the classic Pistons starting line up that grinds down games and has gotten deep in the playoffs. Then, bring in the bench, Jason Maxiell, Amir Johnson, Walter Hermann, Aaron Afflalo and Iverson. Iverson will feel comfortable because this resembles the quality of the starting lineups he has been on in the past. He will be the star of that lineup and make our bench like a starting lineup giving us 2 starting lineups with different styles of play. One is team oriented, the other is Iverson oriented with other contributors.

I would find it hard to argue that we’re in a better position than the Cavs when they have the best player in the Universe. He’s on the verge of entering Jordan territory where we’re all just playing for 2nd place. If the end goal were to win a championship this year, I’d switch rosters with the Cavs in a nanosecond and anybody who says they wouldn’t is lying.

yes nick they are….thats what i was saying earlier….i always said last year that i felt flip played alot of guys based on their salaries and what not….and now, yea…sorry i am alil buzzed had to drink a lot at the game so i would be too drunk to go tackle curry

I hear ya other matt…but have the cavs won anything yet…noand will they, we dont know. But yes, Lebron is pretty decent. ha!

bc,

It’s cool man. Do what you have to do. If you ever tackle Curry, you have got to make it worth the public embarrassment, and impending jail time, by leaving the court with a piece of one of his suit jackets. Preferably one with pinstripes.

I’m shocked to find out this is the case. Next thing you’re gonna tell me AI hasn’t been shooting well.

Bitchy quips aside, thanks for the post ks

Stuckey > Lebron

Dumars needs to fire Curry and have a press conference saying, “It’s just a simple matter of getting the best coach out there as much as possible.”

Im still hoping that Curry is letting this play out during the regular season so there is some chance that AI will not have a “practice, we talkin bout practice?” moment when he is coming off the bench in the playoffs.

For those who want either A.I. or Rip to go to the bench and either McDyess/Amir or Kwame to start – do you want the bench goer (A.I. or Rip) to play how many minutes?

From what I’ve read it seems as though most people are still thinking 25-35 minutes a game. I mean, if Rip or Iverson went to the bench wouldn’t they at least get McDyess minutes. If that were to happen, for the billionth time, then the minutes would be like this (based roughly on this year’s averages):

G/SG/SF
Stuckey-38
Hamilton-38
Prince-38
Iverson-30

PF/C
Wallace-35
McDyess-25
Amir/Kwame/Maxiel-36 (Remember, if you want small ball to die – then a big/bigs has to play starter minutes or else it’s only “not small ball” for the first six minutes of the game)

Now, the PF/C position looks good – but in that first group who’s minutes do you want to cut? That’s giving no minutes to Herrmann or Afflalo ever. That’s leaving four guys to cover all the minutes of 3 positions. But are we going to ask A.I. to come off the bench and play 20 minutes so that AA can play 10.

Everyone bitches and bitches but no one understands that if you don’t play Prince at the 4 then who’s minutes is Curry to cut? Someone would have to be in the low twenties – that’s a lot for a bench member – and we already have one guy off the bench putting in mid-twenties. So who takes that cut? Even 30 is a drastic cut and that’s without AA, Bynum, or Herrmann ever playing.

You can’t have your hate Curry cake and eat it to.

You can talk Manu Ginobli but that’s easy to do when the guy who starts but only gets 15-20 minutes was Bruce Bowen. Who’s the Bruce Bowen out of A.I., Rip, Stuckey or Prince? We don’t have one – that’s why the situation isn’t comprable.

Can we at least have some agreement that the roster given to Curry makes a reasonable starting lineup and playing time near impossible. Dumars has put him a situation where he can either A) give guys minutes they deserve but play them out of position or B) demote either an all star, a leauge MVP, a budding talent in Stuckey, or a gold medalist all around threat to 20 minutes a game (check out the numbers, it’s the truth). I mean, I’m with the guy because A beats B in the real world.

“Sorry, A.I. you’re going to come off the bench and play 20 to 25 minutes so that I can start Amir Johnson who may foul out in less than eight minues”

or

“Sorry Rip I feel like we need a genuine post prescense in the starting lineup, so I’m going to start Kwame Brown”

Say it out loud. It soulds as stupid as it reads. Now imagining having to really say it. It’s not small ball if you have one big that can rebound the ball. If Amir got Rasheed’s minutes we win this game.

I, for one, think small ball should continue.

Here’s the logic:

If you judge this team based on record, it looks like the 2009 Detroit Pistons squad is really nothing special. Sure, might squeak into the playoffs but won’t make any noise.

But the true fan can ignore the record and put all your energy into making excuses and justifications for your team’s performance.

I’ve been doing it all season:

1. This team will get better once A.I. gets a few games under his belt.
2. Ok… A.I.’s still new… little more time.
3. Team will get better when Dice gets back.
4. Ok, now Rip’s hurt, team would be good if he was on the floor.
5. Sheed’s hurt. Once Rasheed gets back… look out!
6. It was the tail-end of a back-to-back set. Dead legs.

Present state: Everyone’s healthy. Dice is back. Iverson is adjusted. Team is adjusted to Iverson. Team is rested. Team is playing at home.

Final result: Loss to Charlotte Bobcats.

At this point, I can either accept that we lost because this team is simply not good, or I can blame it all on small-ball and continue to await the inevitable turn-around that will propel this team to the top once the line-up changes.

As a stupidly optimistic fan, I will continue to believe that this team will be good once the line-up changes. If Curry actually changes the line-up and reality shatters my belief, I will be heartbroken again and I will resign myself to rooting for KG. (He’s so intense!)

You can’t win a championship playing small ball it sucks you saw what happen tonight! who won and who lose!

Juicebox makes a good point about the rebounding.

 I think one of the side effects of smallball is it makes Rasheed play like a carefree goofball. He definitely doesn’t like being the only big on the court and his worst qualites (shooting tons of threes) come out. When he’s playing next to another big he’s more effective.

The smallball Piston starters got a whopping 2 offensive rebounds last night in 179 minutes of play. That’s incredibly weak and entirely predictable.

Ginobili and Bowen both have career MPG averages below 30 minutes. You have to think one of the reasons San Antonio has been successful in the playoffs is the energy levels of their key players both in crunch time and overall. I see no reason why Rip and AI can’t play 32 minutes per game for the good of the team.

Look at the game flow from last night…

http://popcornmachine.net/cgi-bin/gameflow.cgi?date=20090113&game=CHADET

Rip and AI both played 4 stretches of basketball. Is it really that big a deal to make it 4 stretches of 8 minutes instead of 4 stretches of 9 minutes? And Afflalo’s only time in the game was when AI was on the bench. I thought that was the time when you it would be smart to play AI at the point and Afflalo at the 2? Instead it was Stuckey and AI on the bench at the same time. And both Rip and Tayshaun played the entire 4th quarter? I’m sure they were fresh as a daisy when Charlotte closed out the game on a 12-1 run.

My point: Rip and AI play too much at the expense of rebounding, Tay plays way too much period, and the substitution patterns are ridiculous taking into account neither rebounding nor fatigue.

Curry’s small balls (pun intended) have the Pistons another loss.

To a team we should have beat in a game we had under control.

g you are absolutely right
Congratulations to the lakers and bobcats for good wins
Go lakers!!!!

OK. Only got a couple of minutes, but here is some science on the game for y’all:

Curry said we were going to be playing 16 minutes per game of smallball. How’d we do:

Smallball 20 minutes at -4
NOT Smallball 28 minutes at +2

One of the Pistons’ deadliest combinations has been Afflalo/Iverson. For the first time in my memory, we get a surprising result on that front:

Iverson/Afflalo 0 minutes
NO Iverson/Afflalo 48 minutes at -2

One more thing, and this is REALLY IMPORTANT:

On the Pistons’ recent 7-2 stretch, Curry employed an offense in the fourth quarter that was different from the offense in the first three quarters. (I talked a bit about it here.)

In that successful fourth quarter offense, Iverson initiated the play by probing the defense with his dribble almost every single possession in the halfcourt, probably over 85% of the possessions if you were to count.

Last night, Iverson didn’t initiate the offense a single time in the halfcourt during the fourth quarter. Result: 10 fourth quarter points.

I know Rip was rusty, and I know Curry had to work him back into the flow.

And I’m actually generally supportive of the decisions Curry has been making.

But last night’s loss was really on Curry.

- If you say you’re going to play smallball for 16 minutes, don’t play it for 20 minutes.

- Don’t play any smallball in the fourth quarter. (We had about 5 minutes of smallball in the 12 minutes of the fourth quarter.)

- Don’t completely go away from the success you’ve had with Afflalo/Iverson, even if you are trying to work Rip back in.

- Don’t completely abandon the extra gear you’ve developed in the fourth quarter of running the offense through Iverson’s probing and forcing the defense to adjust to a new look late in the game.

We deserved to lose that one.

Not sure if the sample size is large enough to take much from this yet, but 82games.com shows surprising data- the smallball lineup is the most successful of all lineups used by the Pistons this year- a +/- of +53 over 192 minutes.

Of course, my preferred lineup (Stuckey, Rip, Tay, Sheed, Amir) is second.

http://www.82games.com/0809/0809DET2.HTM

Curry said it correctly: At the end of the day, we need our best defensive team out there.

The best defensive team doesn’t include AI. I don’t understand what’s so hard for Curry to understand.

Here’s the problem:

Curry said he would not make any decision on the lineup until he knew for sure Hamilton was able to play. But then he added this: "It’s no secret that when we’ve got two bigs and Tayshaun (Prince) at small forward, we are at our best defensively. At the end of the day that is what is going to drive most of our decisions we make — which group is the best defensively."

                        OR

“It’s a simple matter of getting your best five guys out there as much as possible,” said Pistons coach Michael Curry, adding that the lineup would stay the same Wednesday in Indiana.

Curry can’t make up his mind. . . or doesn’t know WTF he’s doing. I am quite tired of this “let’s not piss off the prima donna’s” attitued Curry is exhibiting. Wasn’t one of the reasons he was hired was because of this ability to “get thru players and not take any guff?”

Curry, please make up your freakin’ mind on what kind of coach you’re going to be.

I was just wondering ,if the whole situation in which coach Curry does not have courage to tell either Iverson or Hamilton to come of the bench ,will cost him the job?

We would be a better team if we had just given Chauncey away and not taken AI in return. I’m completely 100% serious. We wouldn’t have the cap space for next year, but I wouldn’t have this fucking ulcer either.

And please, Petey, stop. Just stop. You’re like Donny from The Big Lebowski.

Things could be worse, I guess. At least we aren’t Knicks fans…

“Come on Dave, just touch it.”

Juicebox:

Nice post. Like some others, I could see cutting the minutes of Rip, AI, and Tayshaun from 38 to, say, 33-34, which creates another 12-15 minutes for AA, a few more for AI, or a few more for the bench bigs. There’s still the ego "who comes off the bench problem, though.

And further, you are fundamentally right: this roster creates all sorts of problems for Curry. AI, Rip, and Stuckey are not just three of Detroit’s best five players, they all would start on pretty much any NBA team. On the other hand, after starter ’Sheed and good third big McDyess, the play from all the other bigs is spotty. And you want Tayshaun on the court, really not at the 4.

If this team wants to win this year — and maybe that’s not the priority — I think it needs to do a trade. It has a bunch of good pieces that don’t fit together well. Example: I like Bynum’s potential, but for god’s sake, when too much small ball is the problem, why were we playing a three-guard offense last night when HE was in?

:(

“Rasheed Wallace was whistled for his 13th technical foul Tuesday in the third quarter by official Mark Lindsay. ‘I was disappointed that he received that one,’ Curry said. ’He’s got to have more self-restraint. That’s on him. He knows what we demand as a team. He owes it to us as a team to show better restraint.’”

I think we now know why roscoe was at the Curry press conference when he was hired. Another exampble of Curry saying one thing and doing another. Time to start yanking some pay.

Here’s my problem: I want to win. Now. I’m used to winning. Always. This weirdness, this… mediocrity (?)… I’m not used to this.

Hence, there is much wailing and gnashing of teeth in my household right now. I want to trade AI for talent. Right now. I want to not feel ASHAMED TO BE A PISTONS FAN. Right now.

But this whole thing was for the future, where we supposedly get better. How could you not, with that much money to spend, right? Well ask the ‘99 Bulls that. Ask this offseason’s Clips that. What if we get “f’d in the a” by all the FA’s we go after? Especially with the HORRID state of the economy in Michigan and the eastern portion of the state in particular, not to mention shitty weather only rivaled by maybe Chicago and Minny… who’s going to want to come here?

I say we unload AI. You KNOW $20 mil in capspace is valuable to somebody out there. If anybody has time out there, I’d like to see some trades that work with the salary cap, bring in a quality young big, and get AI the fuck out of here. Any ideas?

Bench points, eh, 6. Amir, 10 minutes, 1 block, 1 to, 4 fouls. Brown, Herrmann, CDDNP’s. Bob’s front court, Okafor, Diaw, Mohammad, Howard. Dyse and Ra, 55 total minutes. Fun with numbers. Keep the “all stars” from crying by starting small. Sub bigs in after the lead is established to maintain lead/dominate opponents poor front court. Finish with defense. The Free Amir chant is getting awful quiet around here.

Redo the numbers after this coming weekend.

I think that the sheet ball numbers will be worse by then.

Johnson is the problem.

Whether he is hurt or not is not really known but my guess is that McCosky was right and Johnson is playing on sprained ankle which occurred on the West Coast trip.

It was during that trip that his numbers per 36 minutes all went down the toilet except for his foul rate which is now a victim of some kind of Ponzi scheme. LOL

Regardless of the reason that his play has gone down the toilet over the last few games it is the reason that the Pistons have gone back to small ball. If Johnson has shown that he could cut it at PF, which he didn’t on the trip, especially the end of the trip then most likey Curry would not have gone back to sheet ball. That is because Curry really doesn’t want to start Brown or Maxiell, McDyess is not an option to start.

So I blame this reinfection of the sheet ball virus on Johnson and his failure to keep the starting spot that was given him when Hamilton went down.

Trade Amir now.

"It’s a simple matter of getting your best five guys out there as much as possible,"

No, it’s not that simple MC. Your 5 best individual players do not automatically equate to your best 5 man unit. You should know this since you started a good chunk of games yourself.

What I don’t get is WHY we’re playing small ball(s)? What’s the point?

Assuming we’re going to have to play Boston or Cleveland… or BOTH in the playoffs, it leaves us at a SEVERE disadvantage against BOTH those teams.

Matchup of Small Balls vs Cleveland:
Sheed | Ilgauskas
Tey | Ben Wallace
Rip | LeBron
AI | West
Stuckey | Mo Williams

Matchup of Small Balls vs Boston:
Sheed | Perkins
Tey | Garnett
Rip | Pierce
AI | R. Allen
Stuckey | Rondo

And btw, as an afterthought I thought, “Well, maybe they want to use small ball against Boston?” Might make sense… except wasn’t it Michael Curry, himself, that said we had to be more physical against Boston. Uhhh, MC, you’re going the wrong way.

Not only is Brad 100% right about matchups against the Cavs and Celts, but small ball doesn’t work in the playoffs against pretty much ANY good team. Better small ball teams than Detroit have tried and failed (hello, Golden State). Heck, the on-paper very talented Suns, who in their pre-Shaq era were small, never got to the finals.

Playoff teams need to be able to grind it out against quality opposition. Even good small ball can’t play stifling defense, they can’t rebound effectively, and they rely too much on jump shooting.

And frankly, it’s not even clear to me we’re a good small ball team. Good small ball teams tend to feature run and gun offenses, which doesn’t seem to be the point of Curry’s offensive scheme. Then again, I’m not sure what the point of Curry’s offensive scheme is — give it to guards to either take a jump shot or try to penetrate, and hope ’Sheed hits some threes?

@Joel: I’m not a huge fan of that idea, but it has some potential. My main reason for being against it is that I think the problem is MC rather than the roster. I’m also not a fan of most of the guys who are available. But some ideas:

Miami – They will only have around $8 million or so in space this summer and need to clear off Blount and/or Haslem to be players in this year’s free agent class. They pretty much need to land Boozer so that they have a chance at keeping Wade, which would also let them keep Marion. Riley never seemed to be a huge fan of Beasley, which would make him good bait. Chalmers, Wade, Marion, Boozer and some big physical center ought to be enough for them to compete. My suggestions:

Miami trades Beasley, Haslem, and Blount
Detroit trades AI and maybe Amir
I’d really hate to see Haslem as a Piston, but it might work. Another possibility if Miami isn’t interested in resigning Marion:
Miami trades Marion, Beasley, Haslem, and Blount
Detroit trades AI and Sheed.
I wouldn’t like this one, but it makes some sense. The main point is that Miami makes sense as a dance partner because of their need to unload Haslem and/or Blount and their unenthusiastic with Beasley.

Phoenix trades Shaq
Detroit trades AI
or
Phoenix trades Amare
Detroit trades Sheed and Amir
or
Phoenix trades Amare and Shaq
Detroit trades AI, Sheed and Amir
I don’t like Amare and don’t want him on my team unless it’s a fantasy team, but it makes sense. He’s unhappy not getting 50 shots a game and wants out. Phoenix is cheap and we’d give them some cap flexibility. Amir would be scary with Nash.

Utah trades Boozer and a bad contract, Harping or Korver
Detroit trades AI
or
Utah trades AK-47
Detroit trades Sheed
I figure Utah won’t have both Boozer and AK, being small market with cheap ownership. If they don’t think they can or want to resign Boozer bringing on AI clears up a little space and gives them some backcourt help. If they think they can resign him, they can clear of AK’s deal and replace AK’s role. This is the only one of the offers I’ve suggested that I actually like. I’d vote yes on either deal.

I think Amir needs steady minutes, and I think he should start.

“I say we unload AI. You KNOW $20 mil in capspace is valuable to somebody out there.”

I think the Pistons could be major players at the trade deadline. Regardless of whether we go small or not, this team is unlikely to get out of the first round. Rumors around the league are that Dumars is more confident about his 2010 chances than he should be, so we’ll see.

“Trade Amir now.”

At this point, he doesn’t have any trade value.

You can’t make noises about playing your 5 best players and then give your 11th best player Will Bynum 7 minutes. Those 7 minutes are part of the solution to the log jam at G and Curry chooses to give them to a marginal player. Why can’t Detroit play Rip at SF with a regular full-sized front court to give Tayshaun some rest? My quick glance at PopcornMachine shows Tay playing 30 of his 40 minutes at PF. That’s ridiculous.

@Toledo Joe

We’re not a good small-ball team. We’re actually horrible. At least the old Suns and Warriors (and now the Knicks) put up points. We can’t even do that. All the cons, non of the pros.

And isn’t Memo a FA this offseason? I want him back. Sorry if that sounded gay, but it kind of was.

@Mike – We’re 11-4 with Amir starting, and 8-2 when Amir plays 20+ minutes. Also, I did a little math crunching…

When Amir plays 20+ minutes (10 games so far), we allow our opponents 87.7 pts/game. When Amir doens’t play over 20 minutes… we’re allowing 95.3 pts/game. That’s a 7.6 pt difference… and I think his W:L ratio reflects how much that matters.

To say it’s about getting your five best players out there is fine. But neither Rip nor AI are outplaying McDyess and Maxiell.

Coach C’s mentality of the 5 best would’ve been interesting in his pistons days. “Yo, Rick, I know you’ve been starting me all season, but I think the team has the best chance of winning with the best 5 on the court. Tay should be starting ahead of me.” After a hug and a tear, tay starts, and the stones make the ecf’s.

Dumars needs to fire Curry and have a press conference saying, "It’s just a simple matter of getting the best coach out there as much as possible."

And Garrett wins this thread.

“82games.com shows surprising data- the smallball lineup is the most successful of all lineups used by the Pistons this year- a +/- of +53 over 192 minutes.”

You are badly misreading the data.

What matters is +/- PER MINUTE for any given lineup. And the lineup you’re talking about is not nearly as successful as some others. Our best lineup outscores the opposition by three times as much as that particular lineup.

Ok, to give a few more numbers…

When Amir plays 20+ minutes:
Offense = 92.1 pts/game
Defense = 87.7 pts/game

+4.4 pt difference

When Amir plays less than 20 minutes:
Offense = 94.2 pts/game
Defense = 95.3 pts/game

-1.1 pt difference

Can the numbers be any more obvious?

Kevin S. – Or Rasheed Wallace, as far as outplaying McDyess. Antonio McDyess has actually been the most consistent player, by far, this entire season – right behind him a second year starting point guard – not a good sign.

I just go back to the whole fact that if you don’t play any small ball and A.I went to the bench the minutes would look like this:
Stuckey-38
Hamilton-38
Prince-38
Iverson-30
It’s been mentioned to cut the 3 38 guys down to 34 so AA can get 12 but even then that has A.I. playing 14 less a game than he has his entire career and we would never be able to establish a consistent rotation. If AA comes in to play SF and A.I. comes in to play SG and then slides down to to PG while Stuckey rests – it creates this constantly rotating lineup because we don’t have true reserves – we have four starters. I think we need a backup PG. When SA uses Ginobli off the bench they don’t have him backup both PG and SG he just comes off the bench and only plays SG but just plays more minutes than the starter. Basically what I’m getting at is that we need to have a backup PG, SG and SF on most nights and if we give AA 12 and Bynum 12 (6 per half) then the minutes would look like this:
Stuckey 36
Hamilton 26
Prince 36
Iverson 22
You can argue against AA and Bynum needing to get 12 but I don’t know any playoff team that doesn’t give every starter some relief (look at Boston using the biggest lineup of schlub reserves but they have a guy for each position, as does LA, CLE) and having A.I. just float from SG to PG to relieve two players will never give us any consistency, at least that’s my feeling – and if so, you can’t blame Curry for not knowing what to do.

I liked the Iverson trade at first but now I’ve really come to realize that we should have only traded Billups for a post player – even if we had Billups we’d have this same situation because Stuckey probably would have stepped up at some point… I just think with Billups, Stuckey would have had to wait his turn but it still would have made things tough

“And Afflalo’s only time in the game was when AI was on the bench. I thought that was the time when you it would be smart to play AI at the point and Afflalo at the 2? Instead it was Stuckey and AI on the bench at the same time.”

That was pretty incredibly, wasn’t it?

I love Will Bynum, but the whole reason we’re playing smallball in the first place is to find enough minutes for our top four guards…

“And both Rip and Tayshaun played the entire 4th quarter? I’m sure they were fresh as a daisy when Charlotte closed out the game on a 12-1 run.”

Disagree on the freshness issue here.

I don’t the problem was exhaustion. The problem was that Curry wasn’t running the fourth quarter offense through Iverson’s penetration, the way he successfully did during the 7 – 2 streak.

The fourth quarter consisted of a series of contested jump shots against a well set defense. For example, Prince was trying to break down Boris Diaw, a matchup that offers Prince no advantage. But if Iverson were to drive towards Prince’s area of the floor, Diaw would have to help on the penetration, and then Iverson could kick it to Prince giving him an opportunity to make his move without Diaw shadowing him.

I’m against small ball because Rasheed Wallace is the worst offensive rebounder in the game and a poor defensive rebounder – but the point made above about the matchups against the elite east team doesn’t really hold water.

Small
Z/Rasheed: We win
Ben/Tayshaun: We win
LBJ/Rip: We lose – but we lose no matter what and I’m pretty sure Rip is our best LBJ defender, or at least best primary one – especially because he’ll work him harder on the other end as well
West/A.I.: We win – West gets some open 3’s but he won’t put up over 20/game and A.I. probably will and we also have A.I. on their worst perimeter player
Mo/Stuck: We win – Stuckey needs to improve his defense (A.I.=worst influence ever) but I think by seasons end this is a no brainer win for us

As far as Boston I don’t think we’d go small – Rasheed would guard KG (even though he can’t and Prince would probably do just as well) and we’d have Amir foul, I mean guard, Perkins. I don’t think Curry would throw small ball out against them but if he did:
Pierce/Rip: We lose – but again I think Rip is our best Pierce stopper for the same reason as LBJ
Allen/Iverson: We win – They both can’t guard each other but A.I. would score more – and we def take him guarding Allen over Rando
Stuckey/Rando: We win – Seriously
KG/Prince: We lose – but like I said, Rasheed has proven he can’t guard him – to the tune of 24 points at 55% shooting – so I don’t know if I’d be upset over Prince – especially because he can go through and over screens – Rasheed can only trap and leave Robert Horry open for 3 – also if we were smart we could get KG in foul trouble trying to guard Prince and pull him away from the basket where only Perkins would be there to get rebounds – actually the more I write the more I like the idea
Perkins/Wallace: We win – and if we were smart we’d go to it every time in the post until they double and then play off of Rasheed. We should abuse Perkins with our most talented post player other than throwing Amir of Kwame out and say “box him out” – when you think about it – if we had a smart coach who made good play calls we could get KG into foul trouble and abuse Perkins inside with the small ball lineup and not lose much on the perimeter defensively.

I don’t defend it overall – but when you play the matchups it’s actually not that bad.

With Sheed and Johnson out for most and all of the 4th quarter the Pistons had no one on the court to set picks so the offense could not penetrate the paint. Also, Afflalo and Hamilton were not making their three point shots very effectively all night.

Dyess is totally useless on offenswe except for an occasional jump shot. He doesn’t do a very good job of setting picks at all.

Stuckey, Hamilton and Iverson play best when they have someone to set picks for them. Without the pickers on the court the offense turns to sheet in crunch time, because the defense clamps down.

It works fine in the beginning of games when defenses tend to be looser in order to avoid picking up early fouls, (Johnson are you listening). However in the 4th quarter defenses tighten up, and without pickers on the court or a cadre of good to excellent 3 point marksman it makes it very difficult to score effectively in 4th quarter.

In the NBA today to score effectively in the 4th quarter you need the following things

1. Effective 3 point shooters
2. At least one guy on the court who can set effective picks
3. Be able to get the foul line, which to a great extent is dependent on #2.

Small ball only works effectively on offense for an entire game if your small guys can make a high percentage of 3 point shots. But if they are primarily 15 – 20 foot jump shooters, small ball becomes sheet ball.

even more numbers…

When Amir plays 20+ minutes:
Offense = 92.1 pts/game
Defense = 87.7 pts/game

+4.4 pt difference

When Amir plays less than 20 minutes:
Offense = 94.2 pts/game
Defense = 95.3 pts/game

-1.1 pt difference

When AI plays 20+ minutes for Detroit (which is every game)
Offense = 92.3 pts/game
Defense = 93.0 pts/game

-0.7 pt difference

There is no doubt that when Johnson can stay on the court and is healthy the Pistons are a better team then when they play small ball.

You can tell his ankle is botthering him because he hasn’t been getting any rebounds. It was painfully obvious on one play last night when he went up for a rebound but couldn’t elevate enough to grab the ball above the Bobcats player so he had to tap it out.

He is also not going to the glass on offense.

I have no idea why Curry is playing him while he is injured.

Here’s links to the 2 games we played with no Billups, or AI, or deforming defenses, or small ball…

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200811030CHA.html

and

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200811050TOR.html

I long for the days of old… you know, when we used to win.

The sad thing is: We get it together and win the ECF to get to the finals. Then, MC gets his clock cleaned by either Phil J or Popp.

I don’t think MC is making any coaching sense now. How bad is it going to be in the playoffs? Granted, Larry B is a master. It goes from 5 best players, to best defensive team to small ball to who TF knows, because I don’t even think Curry knows. He’s grasping at straws hoping something will work instead of saying “this is who we are and this is what we are going to do. Right or wrong. Good or bad. But this is what we’re going to do. Period!”

He blew so much collective smoke up my rear at his initial press conference that I set off fire alarms in buildings. And now that I think about it, he basically said what everyone wanted to hear based on the last couple of year’s performances. “We’re going to hold people accountable.” See Sheed’s technicals. “We’ll sit people donw who aren’t performing.” See AI on defense. “We’re going to develop our young players.” See Amir/Max. Yada. Yada. Yada.

Screw the numbers. Screw the stats. Screw the +/-. Screw the minutes. For significant portions of games, we look like a bunch of 7th graders out on the playground at recess. Wait a minute, we don’t even look that good.

I did not watch the game, so this might be out of line. But Curry said his best defensive team is with 2 bigs, Tay + 2 others. If we can only scoring 10 points in the fourth, it seems to me there’s a great need to have the best defensive team on the court. If you don’t have a Chauncey or CP3 to be the coach on the floor, then guess what MC? That means it’s you!! Duh!!

I have no doubt he’s trying his hardest, but I also think in the back of his mind he’s not worried about this season because he isn’t going to be judged on this season. He was supposedly Joe D.‘s guy and he’s using as an excuse (though he won’t come out and say directly) the AI trade and working him in.

I think so much attention has been paid to the coming cap space Joe created with the trade that people focus on that and not realizing Joe D made a mistake. Curry ain’t cutting it. And at the end, I pray I have to eat crow.

This team has no direction, no identity and for good parts of the game look totally lost as to what they’re suppose to be doing. This team needs to sit down and say, “you’re option 1. You’re option 2. And so on.” Is Tay the 4 or the 3? Is he the point forward or the defensive stopper. This crap should’ve been decided in trainging camp, trade or nor trade.

How many times do we see Tay talking to AI and basically pointing to where he should be or should’ve been. For God’s sake, it’s been two months since the trade. If AI ain’t getting it now, he ain’t gonna get it.

I find it ridiculous that we only score 10 points in the 4th and Charlotte goes on a 12-1 run (I believe). That’s coaching. Coaching. Coaching.

I can honestly say I’m glad I was working and missed the game.

“Kevin S. – Or Rasheed Wallace, as far as outplaying McDyess.”

That’s fine. I’m simply making the point that Curry’s case for small ball is nonsensical according to its own logic.

“It’s been mentioned to cut the 3 38 guys down to 34 so AA can get 12 but even then that has A.I. playing 14 less a game than he has his entire career and we would never be able to establish a consistent rotation.”

AI is playing far worse than he has his whole career, and he doesn’t play any defense, so it stands to reason that his minutes should be cut. I don’t see why we wouldn’t be able to establish a consistent rotation.

“I’m against small ball because Rasheed Wallace is the worst offensive rebounder in the game and a poor defensive rebounder "

No he isn’t. He just doesn’t rebound well for a Center.

“Z/Rasheed: We win”

No we don’t.

“Ben/Tayshaun: We win”

The matchup problem makes this close to a draw. Plus, you are taking Tayshaun off of James, which makes the SF matchup that much more lopsided.

“West/A.I.: We win – West gets some open 3’s but he won’t put up over 20/game and A.I. probably will and we also have A.I. on their worst perimeter player”

First of all, I’m not sure why you think AI will probably score over 20, given that he averages 18. Second, this plays right into Cleveland’s hands. West is generally too small to hand opposing SGs, and can’t handle the point. With Iverson at the 2, we solve this dilemma.

“if we had a smart coach who made good play calls we could get KG into foul trouble and abuse Perkins inside”

This is what we tried last year, and it didn’t work at all. I agree that we should post up against Perkins, but the best way to beat the Celtics is to play them straight up. No gimmicks. Teams are FINALLY starting to figure out that it makes sense to guard Rajon Rondo.

“Screw the numbers. Screw the stats. Screw the +/-. Screw the minutes. For significant portions of games, we look like … I did not watch the game”

It’s certainly an “interesting” strategy to evaluate based on neither numbers nor eyeballing…

@ Petey: My only point was it’s not just about this game. Part of the reason to cut Flip loose was the up and down effort depending on who we were playing.

We’ve beat the Lakers and the Spurs but lost to Minny by 20+ and a couple of others. We should have never lost to Portland the way we did.

As I stated before: You can spend your practice time worrying about how you’ll stop the other team or you can spend it making the other team worry how they’ll stop you. You can’t do both and right now it looks like were doing neither.

@Mark – 90% of the game wasn’t too bad…

Other than the obvious, you know, Curry being a bad coach… the only real reason for trying to make small ball work is if you have to pull it out of your ass at some point in the playoffs.

I pointed out earlier how much better we are when Amir plays over 20 minutes/game. It seems to me that those numbers might even get better the mores minutes he gets because Amir is still learning his position. If he played 20-30 minutes/game, he might learn when NOT to foul, or when to set a pick and when NOT to set a pick… I’d rather invest minutes in a young guy who’s learning rather than an old coot who’s game is unchangeable.

@ Brad: Thanks. I don’t think the bobcats are as bad as everyone thinks, or thinks they would be. But alot goes to LB.

As for Amir and perhaps a few others: I think they are so afraid of screwing up and getting yanked, that they try to hard to make things happen. It’s that stats thing again. Sure Amire fouls, but is he fouling someone who beat their man off the dribble? Penetrate and dish so he fouls his guy?

At the end of the day, if you look at the talent we got, we shouldn’t have these miniscule +/-’s people keep pointing to if it is these kinds of stats one wants to base the discussion on.

Losing to Charlotte is not as bad as people make out for two reasons.

1. Home teams almost always have a difficult game in their first game back after a long road trip.

2. The Bobcats are 8 – 8 since the trade. They are playing playoff level basketball at this time. Yes 41 wins will get you into the playoffs in the EC this year. Though I am not sure that they will make the playoffs this year, they do thave a shot at it.

3. Small ball without accurate 3 point shooters and big guys on the court that can set picks and screens becasue sheet ball.

Curry is really between a rock and hard place here. Johnson as not played consistently well enough to start. Even if that is due to an injury he still shouldn’t be starting.

So the Pistons are releagated to sheet ball because they don’t have another big who can start and make the team better than when they play sheet ball, including McDyess.

Maybe assigning AI to the bench is the point of no return. Meaning once you make that decision, you can’t say “Hey bud, we were kinda wrong, we need you in the starting lineup.” So maybe they’re doing everything in their power to avoid doing that, even if every stat known to man (aside from the quantum physics deforming defense model) is screaming “BENCH AI!!!”

I’ve never really understood the deform the defense model. here I thought it was always called offense. I mean, isn’t that what the “offense” is suppose to do?

Kevin S:

Statistically Rasheed’s offensive rebounds/36 is the worst of all starting C’s. I’m not going to research the defensive rebounding – but it’s bad. He is a poor rebounder for either a PF or C.

Tayshaun and Ben is a draw? Holy shit that’s crazy. Are you a fan of the Detroit Pistons? The guy that logs the seventh most amount of minutes on Cleveland is a draw with Tayshaun who logs our heaviest minutes based on matchups? On matchups? Wow. The best PF’s in the east outside of KG are Rashard Lewis, Josh Smith, Antwawn Jamison, Al Harrington… I mean seriously people, playing a lanky 6’9" player that can score inside and out and can bring down over 7 boards a game isn’t the craziest thing to ever happen in the NBA. It really really isn’t. As you can see by the fact that we are not the only team to do so… and in the East we aren’t even in the minority. Matchups? Yeah it’d be a draw because Tayshaun would probably only score 3 points – and Ben would totally go off on the boards despite the fact he pulls down less than Tayshaun per game already despite the fact that those averages are based on performances against PF’s of similar builds. Yes, Tayshaun isn’t as strong as the “small” PF’s I listed but since he’s played PF he has seldom times been backed down and killed in the post and never to the effect that it lost us the game (maybe the first Utah game, but Memo did that again against our big lineup – we just can’t beat Utah).

We tried Prince on KG last year and Rasheed in the post against Perkins? Um, no. We tried McDyess getting outplayed by Perkins and KG outplaying Rasheed, and Pierce outplaying Prince, and Ray Allen outplaying Rip, and Rando outplaying Billups (who was dealing with a nagging injury and an aura of swagger clouding his play), what’s that called again, oh yeah, playing them straight up?

This team needs gimmicks. I mean I’m a fan of the Pistons and not the Cavs, so we come from different places here, but I know that even on paper we can’t matchup with Kevin Garnet and Paul Pierce straight up.

And seriously, when a guy averages 18 and someone says he’ll score 20 – shouldn’t we just let that pass. I mean, yeah to average 18 you have to have games where you score over and and under 20, but nagging on someone when he claims a guy will score 2 more than his season average (when his career average is 6 over what the guy claims) is douchey to the max. I mean can’t we let a 2 point overstatement fly under the radar of quote and dissect? No, everyone on here too douchey. OK, that’s fine. Especially when the retort was that West can’t handle bigger SG’s – because when I think of big and physical SG’s I think of Rip Hamilton, running around curls and shooting jumpers. Rip “Back you Down and Make You Pay” Hamilton. Yep, we’d be playing right into their hands if West had to guard Allen Iverson. Right into their hands.

Kevin Sawyer writes:

AI is playing far worse than he has his whole career

AI’s shooting efficiency is definitely down this year over his recent seasons, though I don’t think that necessarily means he’s playing worse. Iverson has the best +/- of any Piston perimeter player, and that basically confirms what my eyeballs tell me when I watch the games.

But if we are to assume for the purposes of the discussion that Iverson is “playing far worse” this year, then I’ll pose to you the same question I’ve asked before: what do you think is different for Iverson this season?

I’ve previously offered three possibilities: a) he’s lost a dramatic amount of athleticism between last spring and now, b) he’s just in a slump, c) he’s being asked to assume a different role with the Pistons than he’s had in the past.

I’ve watched Iverson pretty closely both this year and last (and in previous seasons too,) and I really don’t think the answer is ‘a’. Answer ‘b’ is a possibility, and if true, as Iverson gets more comfortable with his teammates, his shooting touch will return.

But I really think the answer is ‘c’. Iverson is being asked to play off the ball and act as a spot-up jump shooter for far more minutes than ever before in his career. That’s really not his strength. I’ve been screaming for a while that Iverson needs to play fewer minutes, (around 34-36mpg,) and that he needs to initiate the offense for a significantly higher percentage of plays when he is on the court. Do that, and I think you’d find his stats begin to look more like last year’s stats.

Watch the fourth quarters of the games during the 7 – 2 stretch when Rip was out. Curry is putting Iverson on the ball during those fourth quarters, and letting him probe. And it works. It works for Iverson, and it works for the other four Pistons on the floor. Advantages are created and successfully exploited.

Stick Iverson on the weak side and kick it to him for a jumper, and you’ll get what you’ve been seeing. And that would’ve been true in Iverson’s previous seasons as well.

“I’ve never really understood the deform the defense model. here I thought it was always called offense. I mean, isn’t that what the "offense" is suppose to do?”

Not always. Many mediocre and bad teams have no player who can attract multiple defenders. And the Flip & LB era Pistons basically just played straight-up and exploited matchups. But that’s a bit unusual for elite teams. Most teams that contend for a title need to have a player who can draw multiple defenders and (say it with me) deform the defense.

Kevin S. – Unless Sheed is posting up, he’s rolling to or standing at the 3. Kinda hard to get offensive rebounds out there. Don’t you think?

holy mother… now it starting to makes sense why you two (petey+juice) defend AI so much, you guys write kinda like he shoots… all three of you produce at a high-volume, but with sadly low-efficiency ;)

I read almost all the posts and I can’t remember once seeing the term Point Guard!
Dumars traded Chauncey, a great point guard for Iverson, a shooting guard. I love Stuckey, but isn’t yet able to control and win a game like Chauncey can. Giving Stuckey a line up with two shooting guards isn’t get him to Chauncey’s level. The possible solutions are: bring AI off the bench (he keeps saying he wants to be a team player on a championship team) or trade Rip. I love Rip too, but is he going to be a part of the Stuckey era for very long?

Ha! +100 for Gabe.

Nice Gabe!!! Quantity vs Quality.

So here’s Wojo’s take…

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090114/OPINION03/901140338/1127/SPORTS0102

Btw, I’d rather trade Rip than see him coming off the bench behind a 33 year old 1-year has been midget.

I have a buddy who’s a huge Cleveland fan… and hates Detroit. The first thing he did when he heard about the the CB/AI trade was celebrate. He was SOOOOOOO happy. I have to say the AI curse is worse than I thought it would be. This is a miserable existence. I can’t wait til this season is over.

“This is a miserable existence. I can’t wait til this season is over.”

Why don’t you just stop watching the games then? If you hate AI so much and Curry so much then why like/watch the Pistons? I mean you don’t really, but why pretend to.

The concept of rooting for one team is sort of absurd in the first place as you’re more or less rooting for a shirt and a city. So, if you can’t get behind the shirt, every player that wears it, then why call yourself a fan of the Pistons. Seriously, I’m now a fan of Kwame Brown. I root for Kwame Brown to dunk on guys. It’s about the team. A.I. and Michael Curry are Pistons and everyone hates either one or both of those guys then why not just root for another team that has a coach, star player, that you do like? I don’t really get it.

As far as the quanity/quality – yeah sure. But the formula on this site has been this:
1. Someone writes something moronic about AI or Curry.
2. Me or Petey will write really long post that refute those comments.
3. Someone says were retarded for not thinking AI sucks or writes that Ben Wallace/Tayshaun Prince is a draw.

So, I’ll take being the AI of DBB – you you know leading the team in scoring and assists.

sigh and now we get the “why don’t you stop watching the games…!” response from Juicebox. The funny thing is with that logic, I should ask you why you bother to read/post on here? If you find the general community so disagreeable, why do you keep coming back? Do you really love chucking up long posts that much?

Wow. So your latest argument is that if you don’t agree with Curry, you’re not a real fan? Didn’t George W. try that one?

"Why don’t you just stop watching the games then? If you hate AI so much and Curry so much then why like/watch the Pistons? I mean you don’t really, but why pretend to.

The concept of rooting for one team is sort of absurd in the first place as you’re more or less rooting for a shirt and a city."

Well, back in the day, I started being a Pistons fan when we got cable and they were the local NBA team. They were on TV so that’s who you watched.

As far as being a fan of a team rather than a player, I was a fan of Detroit before AI, before Curry, before Sheed, before Billups, before Hamilton, heck… even before Dumars. The people change, but I’m still a fan. So, yes, this is just 1 season in the whole scope of things, and watching people (like Curry, Petey, Wojo, heck… even Dumars) pander for a gimmick is annoying. This season “Detroit Basketball” has been turned upside down for a circus sideshow. I watch because I’m vested. I have 30 years of suffering and joy. I’ve gone through the ups and downs, and to me, this is one of those down years… where a johnny-come-lately has hijacked our philosophy. So, yes, I can’t wait for things to get back to “normal” around here… where defense is priority #1 and superstars turn into role players (reference Mark Aguirre and Vinnie Johnson.)

@Brad

Want to do a Romeo + Juliet thing and kill ourselves at the same time?

I just don’t get Curry. You try small ball and we play about .500 ball. You play a traditional line-up due to injuries and we go 6-2. Now your ass goes back to small ball? Are you kidding me? Am I being punked? If he’s scared of the wrath of A.I. or Rip and won’t move either to the bench to make them both happy, then he’ll be disappointed at the end of the day when we don’t have very much success this season and they’ll still not like him and blam the shit on him and his damn small ball. Impressed with the team during Rip and Sheeds absense and how the bench stepped up. Not impressed with Curry’s coaching soo far. Not officially on the hater bandwagon, but not impressed so far.

Small ball will not work in the Eastern Conference. Maybe the West but not the East. Oh boy, I can’t believe I have to temporarily envy Cleveland and Celtic fans.

… did I make a tear well up in anyone’s eye?

@Gabe:
I agree, I’m curious why Juicebox and Petey even come here.

“1. Someone writes something moronic about AI or Curry.
2. Me or Petey will write really long post that refute those comments.”

The problem is that most of the poeple here are NOT making moronic comments about AI, but educated comments on how to better serve this team. And Petey is refuting very little, but only restructuring the argument so its about something else. Like when Kevin S. Says:

“AI is playing far worse than he has his whole career” (which is irrefutable)

Petey replies by saying his “efficiency is down” but he’s not playing worse, and he’s better than the other Pistons players (based on +/- alone). Then he blames the system.

I’d suggest that Petey and Juicebox are either a) slow learners or b) masochists. They’re not changing any opinions here so we must all be “dumb”, or they just like being disagreed with.

C. I just like being disagreed with. Seriously.

I’ve stated that before. I just like playing devil’s advocate. I wasn’t sarcastic when I wrote that. It’s a lot more fun and challenging.

I mean, seriously, do you think defending A.I. is easy, hell no it isn’t… I had to quit my job. But I’d take trying to defend AI against everyone as opposed to just bitching about him and Curry. That’s easier – it’s more fun to try to see the benefits of small ball and Iverson.

So wait…you hate being disagreed with…and you’re playing devil’s advocate…when you don’t inherently agree with your argument…so you don’t really agree with yourself…and you hate being disagreed with…

I think my head just exploded.

Oh, I read it wrong. You like being disagreed with. Well that’s just weird.

It’s really not that confusing.

I said I like (not hate) to be disagreed with, hence playing devil’s advocate.

My head would explode to if I couldn’t comprehend simple sentences.

the blog is boring when we all just get along and agree with one another. I actually like the blog better now then last year when we couldn’t get over who should be picking up towels at the end of our bench.

“Well that’s just weird”

Are you kidding? Some of these reactions are priceless. It’s great material.

Yes, I misread your sentence. See the thing is whenever I see “Juicebox” I expect 5,000 words to follow and skim while rolling my eyes at the amount of value you find in your own opinion. My bad. You’re a contrarian douche. Loud and clear. Got it.

@Juicebox:
“Are you kidding? Some of these reactions are priceless. It’s great material.”

That, sir, is the dictionary definition of the word “troll”.

And you know how Watson deals with TROLLS (there would be a cool link to the rascoe vid with Matt kicking lakerfans’ ass, but i’m not that savy)

@Craig:
Nerd to the rescue! This is what Matt Watson does with trolls.

Nice slam dunk basket, MP.