Well damn lets switch the line up tonight then!! lol

We got both dudes saying they’ll do it, hopefully joe D or someone spoke to Rip.

Maybe MC had planned for us to lose against Charlotte the whole time – in fact maybe the whole failed smallball experiment was just to get everyone on board with bringing one of our star two guards off the bench. That he saw the whole thing from the beginning and did it this way so that there wouldn’t be as much grumbling. Tay playing out of position and tired. Rip and AI seeing that them both starting costs us games. Maybe MC is actually a super-genius coach, maybe he is the real-life equivalent to another MC: Michael Corleone.

Maybe?

Nah.

@Shinons

No.

And between the two of us, I’m pretty sure we have four more balls than Curry. Unless I’ve vastly mis-pegged you.

Whichever commenter first coined the “telenovela” catchphrase for the AI/Rip storyline is a genius. I can’t think about any of this without thinking about that word.

Does this mean Small-ball is over with? (Finally)

Small ball doesn’t die, it’s like the cockroach that you thought you killed that pops up when you least expect it.

“Does this mean Small-ball is over with? (Finally)”

As always, starting doesn’t really matter.

Curry could start both AI & Rip and play 10 minutes of smallball (good). Or Curry could bring one of them off the bench and still play 30 minutes of smallball (bad).

FWIW, Curry seems to recognize that smallball should be limited. He said yesterday that 16mpg is what he’s aiming for, which is still a bit too much IMHO, (I want around 12mpg). But he at least seems to understand where he needs to get to.

Now he just needs to actually get there. We played 20 minutes of smallball last night, right after he said 16mpg. And the rotations he employed were not well designed to put players in the best position to succeed. I wouldn’t have been happy about that game even if we’d won by 10 points.

Get the rotations and roles set by the all-star break, and we’ll be fine. If we’re still experimenting in a major way in March, we’re gonna be screwed come playoff time…

Even if the starting lineup gets fixed, and we start to bring AI (or Rip) off the bench, it doesn’t fix the end of the game quandary of who to play. Curry wants his 5 best players out there in crunch time, and unfortunately, that’s the small ball unit…a unit that is not the Pistons best unit together. So, even if AI or Rip is ok with coming off the bench, if Curry puts the best lineup out there in the 4th, one of them…or Prince, or Stuck…is going to sit. Stuck shouldn’t sit, and probably won’t, neither can the Pistons afford to sit Sheed or Tay, so again it’s Rip or AI…and like I said, even if they are ok with not starting, their not going to be ok with not playing when it counts.

Maybe there will be hope at the trade deadline. If not, I fear this year is just a bad one we’ll have to stomach until AI is gone next year and Joe D has replaced his contract with some kind of big man who can score.

Props to Rip for not backhanding his comment like AI did.

“if Curry puts the best lineup out there in the 4th, one of them…or Prince, or Stuck…is going to sit. Stuck shouldn’t sit, and probably won’t, neither can the Pistons afford to sit Sheed or Tay, so again it’s Rip or AI…”

Welcome to the next episode of the telenovela.

Not to mention that we’re going to need Afflalo on the floor for significant minutes of the fourth quarter against both Cleveland and Boston in the playoffs…

At the end of the day, Dumars and Curry are going to need to make a decision about whether or not they are serious about competing this year. A Stuckey/Rip backcourt isn’t going to beat good teams down the stretch in the playoffs, but they’re the two players in which the franchise seems to have the most future investment.

I assume Dumars already understands all of this, and we’re just going to have to wait and watch to see how he plays his hand.

I hope he tries to win this year, because he’s got the roster to compete with the elite if the correct roles are assigned. And it’d be a shame to waste an opportunity when Rasheed and Iverson both have some life left in their bodies.

“if Curry puts the best lineup out there in the 4th, one of them…or Prince, or Stuck…is going to sit. Stuck shouldn’t sit, and probably won’t, neither can the Pistons afford to sit Sheed or Tay, so again it’s Rip or AI…”

Here’s how you solve that (drum roll please):

Play whoever has the hot hand.

Beyond that, its not just about offense, but defense— and when AI lost his man last night with 1:30 left (leaving him to a wide open jumper), it cost us our lead.

Not blaming AI for the loss, but saying that we need defense as bad as offense down the stretch. Defense wins championships— more than a single players ability to “deform” them.

The problem with figuring out “who’s hot” is that sometimes the only way to show it is to launch shots. Or, guys are so afraid that they won’t appear “hot” and are afraid to shoot. Though I doubt this relates to AI.

Again, I did not watch last nite’s game, but I am, quite frankly, tired of watching AI lose track of his guy. It’s one thing to get beat, it’s totally different not knowing where your guy is.

“Here’s how you solve that (drum roll please): Play whoever has the hot hand.”

The problem is that a Rip/no-AI offense and an AI/no-Rip offense involve very different roles for the other players. Shifting roles is OK for much of the game, but folks need to be confident of their roles down the stretch.

One of the reasons we had the nice run of wins when Rip was injured is that everyone knew what they were supposed to do down the stretch. (And just in case anyone is confused, I’m quite happy to have Rip back. We’re going to need him. It just makes things complicated in the short-term.)

If you look at the fourth quarters while Rip was out, Iverson was almost always initiating the offense. And having Iverson initiate the offense changes everything. Last night in the fourth quarter, Iverson was didn’t initiate the offense on a single play. Totally different playbook.

Curry’s task here is quite a bit more difficult than I think we often acknowledge.

“Not blaming AI for the loss”

Considering the +/- numbers from the game, I’d say that is a wise decision on your part.

I agree with Payne. Way to deform an argument.

Iverson should sit the most as he does not play D at all and Stuckey can drive and create his own shot.

Curry said: We want our best players on the court as much as possible," I disagree we need to have our best TEAM on the court as much as possible.

We seemed to do fine when we started Stuckey, Rip, Tey, Amir, and Sheed… we actually won by more than 1, 2, or 3 points.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200811030CHA.html

and

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200811050TOR.html

Maybe playing together for 2+ years actually means something. Maybe having a traditional lineup actually is a good thing. Maybe we should give that lineup another shot… just to find if, in fact, it DOES have merit. Why wouldn’t you at least put it on the court to find out?

Anyone else think this is about selling tickets or that it at least has something to do with it? Curry has made his preference known (two bigs), so why wouldn’t he put in his preferred lineup? He’s the coach. I get the feeling the orders are coming down from the top to make AI start for ticket sales. Contrary to popular opinion, I don’t think Curry is an idiot and it would take an idiot to not see that Rip needs a pg that can run the team and AI needs the ball in his hands to be effective, thus AI should come off the bench. Also, we looked pretty shitty when Rip was out there with the bench in the first half of the second quarter. Maybe Curry was ‘showcasing’ this lineup (the second quarter one) in a negative way for proof that it doesn’t work? Maybe I’m seeing things that aren’t there. Are ticket sales even up?

Brad-You seriously write the stupidest stuff – so much so that’s a waste of time to take you seriously – but for fun.

Yes, we did win our 3rd and 4th games of the season. We beat the Raptors and the Bobcats by over six points. Yes, we won two games without Allen Iverson.

Here’s a list of teams we beat with Allen Iverson (asterisks for wins of over 3 points): Sacratmento*, Golden State, Lakers*, Cavs*, Knicks*, Bucks*, Spurs*, Pacers, Bobcats, Wizards*, Bulls, Thunders, Bucks*, Magic, Nets*, Kings, Clippers, Nuggets.

The last 6 of those came without Rip Hamilton. If you’re so amazingly fond of the 2 games we won against the Bobcats and Raptors without AI. Why aren’t you even more so impressed by the games against the Bucks, Magic, Nets, Kings, Clippers and Nuggets that we won without Rip? Perhaps, it’s because you’re an idiot. Maybe? Maybe? Yep, I nailed it.

And just to prove that everything you say is retarded – Rodney Stuckey hasn’t been in the NBA for “2+ years” and Amir has hardly been playing with “that group of guys” for 2+ years – so yep, it’s probably not that. And the Stuckey-Rip-Prince-Rasheed-Amir combo has actually been on the floor since that time.

What this all proves? Nothing. We won games without AI. We won games without Rip. We won games without Rasheed. We’d win games without any one player on our roster. It proves nothing. It’s just stupid.

@Brad:

Unfortunately, Amir is adding to the problem by picking up 2 fouls every 30 seconds. So a starting line-up featuring Amir looks good on paper, but never gets tested on the court for more than a few quick minutes.

I would like to say that he’s young and inexperienced and give him a free pass but I’m starting to question his basketball IQ.

@ Mike:

Winning teams routinely sell more tickets than losing teams so to answer your question… no, this is not an effective strategy to sell more tickets.

The palace was empty last night. Doesn’t matter how many tix were sold.

Well I know that winning is more effective, but a lot of promotion is probably based around AI. Either way, it doesn’t add up when the coach makes his preference known and then it doesn’t happen. His ‘we play the best five players’ bs doesn’t sound like something he believes himself.

@Juicebox:
As you said in that other thread “I just like playing devil’s advocate.” Does that have to involve unprovoked insults?

“Why aren’t you even more so impressed by the games against the Bucks, Magic, Nets, Kings, Clippers and Nuggets that we won without Rip?”

Maybe because I’m so completely unimpressed by games we lost with AI starting. 1 against the Nets, Suns, Timberwolves, 76ers, Knicks, Bullets, and Hawks… 2 losses against the Celtics, Jazz, and Bobcats. All of which AI started and played 20+ minutes in.

Speaking of 20+ minutes it’s time to repost those numbers:

In games AI played 20+ minutes he has a 17-14 record:
Det – 92.3 pts/game
Opp – 93.0 pts/game

The 4 games AI didn’t play (which, btw, we went 4-0)?
Det – 104.5 pts/game
Opp – 94.5 pts/game

and 2 of those were without Billups!

“As you said in that other thread "I just like playing devil’s advocate." Does that have to involve unprovoked insults?”

Here’s the thing, it doesn’t have to, but sometimes it helps. Now, of course, “unprovoked” I think you used pretty loosely though.

I mean, c’mon MP, Brad needs to let go of games 3 and 4 against the Bobcats and Raptors. He needs to move past the 4-0 start. I’m pretty sure that Brad is convinced that if we just dropped Billups and McDyess that we wouldn’t have lost a game all season. I mean, why else continually mention the 4-0 start? Does he not realize that we’ve had winning stretches of basketball beyond 4 consecutive games since that time?

I mean, I’m sincere sometimes, as I think you probably assumed – and I’m sincere about the fact that still talking about how good we were when we beat up the Bobs, and the Wiz, four games into the season is insane.

@Juicebox – Why is it insane? Its the only time that starting lineup played. If Curry would start that lineup more, we’d have more numbers to look at… but unfortunately he doesn’t like things that work. He keeps trying to force a square peg in a round hole. See, what you like to do is say “THESE games count, but THESE games don’t.” let’s look at ALL the numbers… the big one that matters to me most is that we’re 16-14 with AI starting. Not exactly impressive.

… sorry, 17-14

“Here’s the thing, it doesn’t have to, but sometimes it helps.”

See, that just makes you more of a troll. Brad and I have bumped heads, in fact he probably doesn’t like me very much. But I’m not going to insult the guy, nor is he going to insult me. We’re above that, and this is what makes this community different than the other Pistons boards. I think you might find Det News’ website a bit more suited to your whole MO.

In all honesty, I think if we’d just dropped Dice and Billups and NOT taken AI in return, we’d probably have a better record right now, our bench would be more developed, and our entire roster would be more confident being that they’d probably have defined roles night in and night out.

FWIW – I don’t really have a problem with you, Mike, or anybody really. I could do without the insults. It brings the conversation down for all of us.

Here’s how you determine who starts before each game…

Stuckey, Tay and Sheed are in.

Rip and AI play PIG to determine the shooting guard. Winner starts.

While they are doing this… Kwame, Amir and Maxiell fight for their rebounds. The one who gets the most, starts.

Here’s the Juicebox version of how this site works:
“…the formula on this site has been this:
1. Someone writes something moronic about AI or Curry.
2. Me or Petey will write really long post that refute those comments.
3. Someone says were retarded for not thinking AI sucks or writes that Ben Wallace/Tayshaun Prince is a draw.”

and here is how the timeline actually goes:
1. Someone writes something critical about AI or Curry.
2. Juicebox call them an idiot.

In all honesty, I think if we’d just dropped Dice and Billups and NOT taken AI in return, we’d probably have a better record right now, our bench would be more developed, and our entire roster would be more confident being that they’d probably have defined roles night in and night out.

Interesting. Maybe. We sure weren’t very good when we were waiting for Dyess to get back, but I think Sheed, Amir, Max, and Kwame is a frontline we can get the job done with. But without him, too many old ladies in Detroit will be stuck without someone to walk them across the street.

Here’s how you determine who starts before each game…

Stuckey, Tay and Sheed are in.

Rip and AI play PIG to determine the shooting guard. Winner starts.

While they are doing this… Kwame, Amir and Maxiell fight for their rebounds. The one who gets the most, starts.

Yes! Fantastic! Let’s get this one signed, sealed, and delivered.

Too many kittens would languish in trees…

@Shinons

Are you sure? Seems like there are a lot of guys in Detroit would at the very least approach an old lady walking across the street…

Anyone thought about if Denver hadn’t given Camby away for pocket lint and baked beans? Our whole situation could be a LOT different right now.

This site isn’t so high and mighty – every time LB comes on here there’s a union of like five guys that immediately rip him apart. Of course, it all goes back to whenever, and it’s all in fun, but it happens and it makes this site have the same tone as most.

As for my one insult.

Dear Brad,

I’m sorry I called you stupid. I don’t really think you’re stupid or retarded. I don’t, as you know, even know you personally.

You see, sometimes I say things I don’t mean. If those things hurt your feelings or made you upset, I apologize. I kid around a lot, almost constantly, and sometimes my humor is not best suited for a blog post.

Sincerely,

Juicebox LeRoy MacDougle

PIG or HORSE should be events during All-Star weekend. Anyone want to start a petition?

LeRoy MacDougle is a pretty cool name. Sounds like an Irish cowboy. McYeehaw!

I’d also be down with a power dunk competition, where the rim had sensors in it to measure the power of a dunk… I would love to see Maxiell go up against D Howard in that.

I just signed nearly every name combination I can think of. The skills competition reminds me of Lakersfan…

@Juicebox – It’s cool man. I don’t really care.

Gabe – that would work – there’s something missing now that the backboards don’t occasionally shatter… that could be part of the fun.

Gabe -That would be awesome. We should have them train like Drago in Rocky 4

I will break him

“This site isn’t so high and mighty – every time LB comes on here there’s a union of like five guys that immediately rip him apart.”

Funny enough, I’m part of that union because LB can’t have a disagreement without someone without being insulting. He and I were actually friends at one point, on this board and off. The old timers here likely remember that.

@Quick Darshan:
“Here’s how you determine who starts before each game…

Stuckey, Tay and Sheed are in.

Rip and AI play PIG to determine the shooting guard. Winner starts.

While they are doing this… Kwame, Amir and Maxiell fight for their rebounds. The one who gets the most, starts."

I 100% support this idea. No, 1000%.

I also support giving Rasheed a new contract after this season where he is paid per basket made from within 10 feet, not a dime otherwise.

"Amir is adding to the problem by picking up 2 fouls every 30 seconds. So a starting line-up featuring Amir looks good on paper, but never gets tested on the court for more than a few quick minutes.

I would like to say that he’s young and inexperienced and give him a free pass but I’m starting to question his basketball IQ."

Matt, I kinda agree with you. Sometimes I wonder what Amir is thinking, but other times I wonder what the refs are thinking. Amir gets some of the tickiest-tackiest fouls called on him. Not saying that excuses the dumb fouls he picks up, but other teams are taking advantage of the fact that refs have very little respect for Amir. He’ll figure it out, but he needs more playing time even when he’s in foul trouble.

I can’t imagine Rip ever losing in PIG to AI. AI would have to get spotted at least a P to make it fair.

Every other turn, AI is allowed to try to deform the big guys , and if he scores in the paint, +2

Didn’t Billups and Rip play pig all the time… for money? Anyone remember a story about Rip heading back out to the court in a towel to settle a disagreement him and CB were having?

I know we all love Afflalo, but maybe it would make sense to have a three guard rotation where Stuck, Rip, and AI all average 32 mpg and AA gets around 10 mpg all as Tay’s backup.

If I had my druthers, I’d play AI about 20-22 minutes off the bench. Most of those with AA. I’d start Stuckey, Rip, Tey, Amir, and Sheed… and emphasize D. Run the offense through Rip and his endless off the ball running. Pretty much the same as we did with Billups, except Stuckey can penetrate and finish much better than Billups could… which is what we’ve been lacking the last 3-4 years, and really the whole reason we got Stuckey to begin with. I’d tell AI to run, create, and be the offense when he’s on the floor. If you can fit 20 shots in 20 minutes.. go for it. It’s a pretty simple tweak to a philosophy that’s been working for us for the last 6 or 7 years.

There is no way that AI only gets 20 mpg. 32 mpg is already a significant cut.

That would be my lineup and how I’d run it. The best defensive 5 would get the most minutes, and AI would have the run of the floor when he’s out there.

I was going to add my thoughts/lineup to the discussion, but Brad just nailed it. Stuckey, Rip, Tay, Amir, and Sheed start. Minutes at the 4 and 5 get split between Sheed, Amir, Dice, and Maxiell. The 1, 2, and 3 positions get split between Stuckey, AI, Rip, Tay, and AA, with Rip, Tay, or AA at the 3. Situational minutes for Kwame, Herrmann, and Will Bynum. That should work, right?

I was looking ahead in our schedule… not good. February and March look brutal. Cleveland 3 times, Orlando twice, Atlanta twice, Boston, LA Lakers, SA, Dallas, Houston, and New Orleans.

… good thing we worked the kinks out of our small ball attack against these “inferior” opponents we’ve been playing. Now we can unleash the unyielding power of small ball on some REAL opponents!!