Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: The Worst Team Ever Projected?

The view from Portland

My former HOOPSWORLD colleague Wendall Maxey was at last night's game and wrote a nice piece about how the Pistons have started to come together since Allen Iverson's arrival:

But with Iverson leading Detroit to a 10-4 mark in December and the Pistons losing on Wednesday night in Portland to end a seven-game winning streak, the adjustment period with Iverson getting used to a new system and team is officially over.

Winning is proof.

[...] Since the trade, Detroit has gone 16-12 in the 28 games Iverson has played for the Pistons. But change comes in different shapes and forms. There is change on the court – players learning Iverson's tendencies and vice-versa – and then there is change off the court. That's where Iverson has made an obvious impact.

"It's an honor to play with him. Personally, he's just very humble," said center Jason Maxiell, thinking about what he's learned about Iverson the past few months.

"He's not the type of guy that goes around talking about himself all the time. He's a winner inside."

Star-divide

Not only is it an honor to play with him, it's also an honor to play against him -- at least if you're Blazers rookie Jerryd Bayless. Ben from BlazersEdge talked to Bayless (via TH) after the game:

Postgame, he admitted that he was taken aback just being on the same court as Allen Iverson, struggling for words to describe facing off against someone he's been watching play professional basketball for more than half of his life. "It's unbelievable... you know... it's just... when you go against these guys you've been watching your whole life, and you're finally on the court, it's kind of tough not to get like... 'damn, that's AI right there.' 'It's Rasheed on the bench over there.' I mean, you can see him right there!"

What was Bayless thinking about while he helped shift the momentum during the third quarter, "I'm stealing the ball from AI, I was trying not to smile," laughing at the memory of himself. Still in disbelief after talking about it for a few minutes, he shook his head and repeated himself, "I mean, that's AI right there." His wide, giggly smile broadcast his satisfaction.

Bayless hasn't played much this year (he's sat more games than he's played, and his eight points last night were a career high), but if he ends up being half the player he looked like last July in the Vegas Summer League, he'll be a star. Portland is going to be a contender for a long, long time.

Comment 50 comments  |  0 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

I was also at the game last night, and I have to say: Iverson is horrible. I live in Portland now, but I was back home in Detroit over the holidays and went to the game against the Magic. I watch almost every game on League Pass. When will we start seeing calls for Afflalo to start? I really feel like Iverson lost the game for us.

Even my girlfriend, who has never seen the Pistons play, kept asking me, “Why does he just let guys go by him and then try to poke the ball away? At best, it looks like he’s trying to foul them.” How many times did Blake get to the hole uncontested? How often was it a guard scoring a long two or three against us? He just doesn’t fit this system.

by Matt on Jan 8, 2009 6:40 PM EST reply actions  

For those with no interest in the BCS title game, Game 7 of the 2005 NBA Finals is on again. Woo-hoo!

by american slappy on Jan 8, 2009 8:28 PM EST reply actions  

Yup, there’s nothing like rubbing salt in our wounds…

by Steve in OH on Jan 8, 2009 8:50 PM EST reply actions  

I still say Sheed stripped Duncan pretty cleanly…

by Forty on Jan 8, 2009 9:49 PM EST reply actions  

I’m at peace with this one though…game 5 not so much. Man was San Antonio good, and man were we good.

by Forty on Jan 8, 2009 9:51 PM EST reply actions  

“I’m at peace with this one though…game 5 not so much.”

Given that you don’t like MC throwing players under the bus, Forty, how did you feel ’bout LB “justifiably” throwing Rasheed under the bus on the blown coverage on that one?

Roscoe won you guys a title, and then he lost you guys a title. But both teams played hard. Championship belt don’t lie.

by Petey on Jan 8, 2009 10:00 PM EST reply actions  

Well the famous “blown coverage” I’m aware of was game 5…and lb blamed himself as I recall…

by Forty on Jan 9, 2009 8:51 AM EST reply actions  

“Well the famous "blown coverage" I’m aware of was game 5…and lb blamed himself as I recall…”

I’m also talking about game 5.

But unless my memory was gone haywire, LB had a psychotic press conference afterwards where he kept emphasizing that he’d specifically told Roscoe to stay home on the play, and that the entire loss was Wallace’s fault.

It was the mother of all throwing under the buses.

As William Davidson said about LB, “not a good person.”

by Petey on Jan 9, 2009 9:02 AM EST reply actions  

Has anyone else seen this yet?

The REAL reason we lost to the Blazers.

And we lost by one fucking point.

by Joel on Jan 9, 2009 9:25 AM EST reply actions  

Matt, I didn’t see the game on wednesday, but according to the box, their starting back court “lit us up” for 23 combined points. Add in the reserve guards, and we’re looking at 35 points on 12-28 shooting. LA and outlaw scored 40 on 17-31. Why are you writing about AI’s defense?

by Craig on Jan 9, 2009 10:31 AM EST reply actions  

All AI apologists,

AI’s shooting percentage is 12th on our 14 man roster. Watch the Denver game tonight, to see for yourself why he’s a defensive liability. He’ll be posted up so much, we’ll start calling him “Post Office,” that is if he starts. Also, if AI starts, I GUARANTEE we lose. GA-RON-TEE.

If we start Stuckey, Rip, Tey, Amir, Sheed we got a fighters chance.

by Brad on Jan 9, 2009 11:12 AM EST reply actions  

I love that as soon as we lose a game it’s back to Iverson. We lost and it’s all Iverson’s fault. Of course, it has to be, who else could it be?

When we win everyone sings the praises of Rodney Stuckey. In wins, Iverson’s name barely gets mentioned – of course it wouldn’t though, he’s horrible and had nothing to do with the team’s success.

At Portland: Iverson and Stuckey both shot between 30 and 35%. Both real bad. But Iverson did score more points. They both had seven assists – although Stuckey is the point guard and runs the point significantly more than Iverson. Iverson had four turnovers, a big amount. Stuckey had SIX. And for those that watched the game, probably not the people hating on Iverson, during the stretch of the game that Portland made their run a large part of it was due to their trapping and pressuring Stuckey, creating turnovers for easy fastbreak baskets (see: Aldridge and Rudy Fernandez dunks). Point being, if Stuckey is to get all the praise for all victories – he should get some blame when he plays like ass. Of course, we could just stick with the blame Iverson whenever we lose – that works pretty well too. Oh yeah, and our last two baskets down the stretch were setup by Iverson (the Prince baseline shot and the Kwame dunk). Those plays gave us a chance to win the game – and it wasn’t Blake hitting the big time shots down the stretch or really ever. Morons. By the way, Steve Black blows by most of his defender, he’s an underated player – but he’s a subpar finisher at the rim so most of the time when he got the penetration, except the few times when he got all the way to the basket, nothing really developed. Almost all of his assists came out guys shooting jumpers on the perimeter.

The Porland game was a hard loss because it seemed like we really should have won it and it got stolen from us (and it would have been nice to keep the streak going with Boston and Clevelands recent losses) but in reality only Kwame Brown and Tayshaun Prince had good games. Amir did too but was limited in time. Maxiel had a good first half, but again, he wasn’t allowed to play in the second. When only Kwame Brown and Tayshaun Prince have good games and you still only lose by one to a good team at their place, well first it hurts, but second it a says a lot about Prince, and I think it showed something about Kwame – that 4th quarter block he had was impressive.

by Juicebox on Jan 9, 2009 11:35 AM EST reply actions  

OT: As much as I would hate seeing one of our guys lost to make room for him, I would fully support the Pistons grabbing Darius Miles, play him randomly for two games, send him packing, then sending a nice f-u letter to Larry Miller. Threatening to sue to keep a guy from being able to work after you forced him to retire due to injuries which obviously he doesn’t have since he’s been able to play from preseason to present? Real classy. What’s particularly awesome is that they tried to cheat Miles out of the money they owe him by saying his knees were too bad and their entire future depends on the messed up knees of Oden and Roy.

/end rant

by Shinons on Jan 9, 2009 11:39 AM EST reply actions  

@Juicebox – I love how every AI supporter NEVER addresses how TERRIBLE his shooting % is. Please explain to me why it’s 41.8%? That’s everyone else’s fault… that’s right. What about his 3p shooting ? 30.4? AI’s shooting % ranks 19th of all PG’s… 20th of all SG’s. How is this a good thing?!? It says alot that Detroit is winning despite this ANCHOR around our necks. Unfortunately, us going on a winning streak has only bolstered AI supporters.

Please, talk to me about why his shooting percentage sucks. Seriously, explain it to me.

by Brad on Jan 9, 2009 11:51 AM EST reply actions  

Anybody see this? Blazers demand rivals not sign Miles. I really hope that somebody signs him. I kind of like the Blazers, but doesn’t threatening to sue another team for signing a player seem like a real dickhead thing to do?

by Other Matt on Jan 9, 2009 12:20 PM EST reply actions  

“I love that as soon as we lose a game it’s back to Iverson. We lost and it’s all Iverson’s fault. Of course, it has to be, who else could it be?”

There are folks out there who simply hate Iverson. They’ve always been out there, and they always will be out there. They’re kinda like Ron Paul supporters or cockroaches.

“Please, talk to me about why his shooting percentage sucks. Seriously, explain it to me.”

I tend to ignore you Brad, because along with Boney, you’re kinda dim, kinda hateful, kinda boring, and deeply ignorant about hoops, but I’ll explain it to you once:

- Shooting percentage doesn’t matter. It doesn’t take into account FT’s and 3pt shots. The relevant metric is True Shooting Percentage.

Iverson’s TS% this year is 51%. That’s mildly lousy. It’s also somewhat unusual for him. He’s ranged between 53% and 57% over the past 5 years, with the 57% coming last year, after he’d already supposedly “lost a step”.

The fact that he’s down a few points is mildly alarming, but has a lot to do with the fact that he’s been getting the ball late in the shot clock a lot, which doesn’t play to his strengths. He’s never been a particularly good spot-up shooter, which is how Curry was using him at first. He needs to get the ball earlier in the clock so he can employ his handle.

Iverson’s bread and butter is FT’s. And the 5.8 FT’s per game he’s attempting as a Piston is the lowest of his career BY FAR. That’s almost entirely because of how Curry has been using him, and I have enough faith in the Curry/Dumars high command to think they’ll get things figured as we go forward. Find ways to get Iverson to the line another time or two a game, and his TS% will suddenly become just fine.

- Iverson’s shooting efficiency is not where he brings value, and never has been. He brings value because to contain his dribble, opposing defenses have to send extra guys at him.

His handle makes opposing defenses unable to correctly matchup against the other four guys on his team. All he needs to do with his TS% is keep it high enough that his shot attempts don’t hurt the team. And the level for that is just about where it is right now, though a point or two above that would certainly help matters. But hopefully some mild improvement in his TS% comes as he finds his rhythm within the Pistons’ schemes, and as Curry comes to understand how to best employ him.

Now it’s been explained to you. Feel free to resume your normal mindless hating now. Everyone has their own motivations for following a team, even if following a team to vent your hate seems somewhat odd to me. And I now feel free to resume ignoring you.

by Petey on Jan 9, 2009 12:32 PM EST reply actions  

“OT: As much as I would hate seeing one of our guys lost to make room for him, I would fully support the Pistons grabbing Darius Miles, play him randomly for two games, send him packing, then sending a nice f-u letter to Larry Miller. Threatening to sue to keep a guy from being able to work after you forced him to retire due to injuries which obviously he doesn’t have since he’s been able to play from preseason to present? Real classy.”

Yup.

I actually like the current Blazers squad, but they’re accumulating some very bad karma with what they’re doing. Fuck ’em and fuck their cap space. Free Darius!

by Petey on Jan 9, 2009 12:43 PM EST reply actions  

I was at the game and had predicated that they would lose due to Wallace and Rip’s injuries catching up to them.

They started off well in the 1st half but closed it off sloppily which they ultimately never came out of during the entire 2nd half. The 2nd half looked like the problems that have plagued this team and has been the main criticism of them for the last eight years. They go through slumps when they simply can’t score. AI had a horrible game, especially on defense. I couldn’t believe he was letting Steve Blake work him over and over. It was embarrassing! I mean, STEVE BLAKE?!!!? The defense was suspect with the rest of the team as well, as I kept saying to my friend, “The old Pistons wouldn’t have let the lane open like the Red Sea every time, and if they did, they’d put someone on their ass.” Terrible loss, simply gave it away. Ended up having to sleep in my car in a gas station parking lot due to flooding in Washington. Yeah!

by Jake on Jan 9, 2009 12:57 PM EST reply actions  

Fine, let’s evaluate them on TS%… AI is .512, Stuckey is .531, and Rip is .542. OK, so you helped me establish he’s the worst of our 3 PG/SGs. Are these facts getting in the way of your opinion?

Nobody is as mindless as you are in your support of Iverson. When the stats don’t tell the story to support your opinion, you look for other stats, mire the other party in fuzzy facts(like “he’s getting the ball too late in the shot clock”, and “That’s almost entirely because of how Curry has been using him”), and go on repeated never-ending posts that bludgeon everyone with excuses.

I’ve been watching Pistons basketball for 30 years… AI is a $20 million gimmick. Plain and simple. Never won a title, never will. I don’t hate him…. he just is what he is. And MY basketball team, the one I’ve cared about for over 30 years, is worse off for having him start, offensively and defensively.

by Brad on Jan 9, 2009 1:11 PM EST reply actions  

I give Johnson 4 minutes tonight before he picks up his 2nd foul, whether he starts or not.

I think one could get very rich by taking the unders on 5 minutes before incurring two fouls.

by Mike on Jan 9, 2009 1:44 PM EST reply actions  

To expand that, Iverson actually has the worst TS% of any Piston in the rotation. He also has the third worst turnover rate (from BBR). He has shot the most on the team, yet is one of its most inefficient and turnover-prone players.

Stuckey did have a poor game, but that hardly absolves Iverson, who’s mostly been a mediocrity in his time here. I’m growing less and less impressed with his ability to “deform” defenses when all that comes of it is a clanged midrange jumper or a bad pass.

by Paul M on Jan 9, 2009 1:52 PM EST reply actions  

Stop. You’re looking at facts. You’re an AI hater!!!

by Brad on Jan 9, 2009 1:57 PM EST reply actions  

“And MY basketball team…”

I apologize. I had no idea you had full ownership.

You REALLY ought to fire your GM and shift the personnel around more to your liking. I’m surprised you’ve let things get this far off your preferred track in the first place. Manage the situation more closely in the future, and these kind of problems can be avoided.

by Petey on Jan 9, 2009 1:57 PM EST reply actions  

The refs have it in for Amir. Conspiracy! And someone needs to sign Darius Miles. Please.

by Garrett on Jan 9, 2009 2:00 PM EST reply actions  

I think AI will pick things up when Sheed comes back. Sadly, he’s the Pistons best 3pt shooter. Stuckey will have more room to work too.

by Quick Darshan on Jan 9, 2009 2:04 PM EST reply actions  

Brad laying the boom. Weird, we agree.

by Other Matt on Jan 9, 2009 2:04 PM EST reply actions  

@Petey – Petty and weak. Apparently you’re losing the battle on trackable statistics and now want to divert the focus of the argument to something childish.

Let me change my original statement… because it was SOOOOO flawed:

Please, talk to me about why his TRUE shooting percentage sucks. Seriously, explain it to me.

by Brad on Jan 9, 2009 2:09 PM EST reply actions  

“Apparently you’re losing the battle on trackable statistics”

I refer you to my original comment above, which deals quite a bit with the trackable shooting statistics, what they mean, and what their limitations are in dealing with the specific player we’re discussing. Hoops is an interesting game to analyze because you need to combine both individual stats and eyeballing the action to get a good picture of what’s going on.

And I’m not trying to fight any battle. You asked for someone to explain what was up with Iverson’s shooting percentage, I decided to briefly take you seriously and actually, y’know, explain. And now we’re back to the status quo ante where you can hate on Iverson and I can ignore you.

Had I been trying to make the case for why Iverson is better than LeBron James and Jesus combined in order to “win a battle against you”, I would have phrased things quite differently. You got the explanation you requested instead.

My only battle is with the other 29 NBA teams. You can keep on battling Bubbachuck.

by Petey on Jan 9, 2009 2:27 PM EST reply actions  

Nice that you get to pick and choose when statistics are worth noting or not. I wish those of us in the real world had that luxury.

As far as your explanation went, it starts off ridiculing me for being ignorant, then scolds me for not realizing that TRUE Shooting % is what’s REALLY important, then says that that’s not where AI’s “value” lies but rather it’s in his ability to cause chaos in opposing defenses with his dribble penetration(a very untrackable thing).

Sorry, but your “explanation” sucks. AI would be great off the bench against lesser opponents. In the mean time let’s start our up and coming PG and All-Star SG.

by Brad on Jan 9, 2009 2:47 PM EST reply actions  

My original point, and the fact is, Iverson did not lose the Portland game for us as stated above by a couple different people. Only Prince and Kwame had good games – I don’t know anyone that could dispute that comment (other than citing Amir when he was on the floor, and I’d agree with that). Iverson didn’t have a good game in Portland – but he also didn’t have the worst game – and he also did setup our last two buckets. After watching that game, I just don’t know how anyone could go right at Iverson with the blame. That’s seriously absurd. I’m not a huge Iverson fan, just like I’m not a huge fan of anyone on our roster individually (AA the only excpetion, barely), I just watch the games and root for the team – but after each game it’s pretty simple to tell who played well and who didn’t, or who cost us the game and who didn’t. Iverson’s play did not cost us that game.

As far as his shooting . Yeah, the guys not a good jump shooter. Did anyone not already know that? So, yeah he has the lowest shooting % of the starting five (but everyone on the starting five has a bad shooting % really, no one even flirting with 48). He does, however lead the team in scoring, assists, steals, fouls drawn and free throw shots per game, and he pulls down more rebounds than either Stuckey or Hamilton. He shoots a lot because we don’t really have any other weapons. I realize we’re all a fan of the Pistons here but we’ve got Prince (who only has good scoring games when we’re down a man and he’s needed to have a good game), Rasheed Wallace (who shoots 42% and the majority of his game are 3’s), and Rip Hamilton (who only really had one reliable shot, and it hasn’t been that reliable this year). Stuckey seems like he’s going to be our #1 offensive option by year’s end but the guy still forces when he shouldn’t, and isn’t that great of a finisher. We’re seriously an overacheiving team when it comes to offense – so to knock the team’s leading scorer for shooting percentage (on a team that struggles to score often) when his shooting percentage is 4% off of of the starting lineup’s average is stupid. 4% means for every 100 shots that Prince, Hamilton, and Iverson take Prince and Hamilton will make 4 more than Iverson. But being as Iverson draws over twice as many fouls than either of those two he’ll actually be making up for those 4 makes per 100 shots in freebies. If he was shooting 40% and Hamilton 52% then we’d have some issues. But fact is none of our starters are shooting it that well this season – we rely on defense and second chance points, hence why we seem to win when we rebound and lose when we don’t.

Yep that Iverson, leading the team in scoring, assists, steals, guard rebounding, fouls drawn, free throws taken, but he shoots 4% worse than Rip Hamilton, Rasheed Wallace, and Tayshaun Prince (who are having the worst scoring years of their careers). Yeah, fuck that guy.

by Juicebox on Jan 9, 2009 3:07 PM EST reply actions  

“Let’s start our upcoming PG and all star-SG”

That’s an argument against starting Iverson?

Oh, you mean our 3-time all-star not our 8-time… ok, got you.

by Juicebox on Jan 9, 2009 3:11 PM EST reply actions  

yeah… the 30 year old, 6’7", 3 time all-star SG with better 2p shooting %, 3p shooting %, and TRUE shooting %, AND a championship under his belt… not the 33 year old, 6’0", 8 time all-star SG with worse 2p shooting %, 3p shooting %, and TRUE shooting %, AND no championship to speak of.

by Brad on Jan 9, 2009 3:42 PM EST reply actions  

The refs have it in for Amir. Conspiracy! And someone needs to sign Darius Miles. Please.>>

I don’t think it has anything to do with the refs other than Amir does not get the benefit of doubt on things like non contact reaching fouls.

But basically he hasn’t learned how to play without fouling excessively. One has to wonder if he is capable of learning to play without fouling excessively.

by Mike on Jan 9, 2009 3:55 PM EST reply actions  

People are AI haters, you have to understand he’s never played in a system like this. Where others guys (when healthy – Rip and Sheed) also can score. He’s always been the go to guy and never had a conscious when shooting. That makes a big difference for they type of player he is, he’s a rythmn player and has to be in the game – he’s never seen another way. He can’t come of the bench, if you want Afflalo in instead of him your crazy. What are you gonna get 8-10 points a game, a couple rebounds, minus a playmaker and a person that draws attention on offense. If you look at everyone player that AI has matched up with this year since he’s been in Detriot see if he hasn’t outscored his man guarding him. You talk about Steve Blake give me a break who scored more point in that game between him and AI, and remember they only lost by 1. If everyone would be able to outscore their man like AI does every night, would they lose? AHH NO! Cause it’s not possible. And you talk about his defense, what about all the little tip passes he gets, or steals from behind, or intercepting the passing lanes, he’s steal one of the faster players in the league. And is always ranked in the top 10 for steals if he’s not number 1. Are steals not defense. For those of you that have played basketball before you know that when you don’t have the green light to shoot it can make you gun shy at times and change your game. This is pretty much what has happened to AI, but he seems to be getting it together. He needs to learn a different role, with picking and choosing the right shots at the right time, but before he would take his shot whenever he wanted and he didn’t have to worry about teammates second guessing him. And I know that sometimes players like Rip and Tayshuan do that – I can see they’re reactions at the game and even in timeouts. I was at the Det/Clipper game the other day, and the team was playing horrible and could have been handed a lost by the crappy Clippers but when they needed a big play or big shot out of a timeout who got it for them??? AI! You can see his comfort level rising (I sat 2nd row behind their bench) and you can see the mentoring going on from AI to Stuckey, in timeouts Stuckey doesn’t even ask the coaching staff questions he asks AI. Cause he knows that he getting advice from a future Hall of Famer that knows how to win. He’s just never been this fortunate, with this type of team, or in this situation when trying to win. Whether you like it or not he will go down as one of the greatest guards to play in the NBA. When everyone is back and after about 30 more games they will be ready for the playoffs to compete, mark my words.

by js10jj on Jan 9, 2009 3:58 PM EST reply actions  

Iverson is not worth signing for anything more than $8 – $10 million a year maximum and then for only 2 years maximum.

I would rather keep Rip and let Iverson go come next summer. Resign Sheed for maybe $8 – $10 million for 2 years with a third year Pistons option.

That would free up about $23 million in cap space. Afflalo next year will be even better and should be able to contribute a better all around game than Iverson.

by Mike on Jan 9, 2009 3:59 PM EST reply actions  

Any edge AI gives us offensively over Stuckey and Rip (a notion I disagree with) is ruined by what he gives up defensively. It’s not just his size that hurts him or his ball watching, but guys blow by him on a regular basis. For a guy who’s still as quick as he is it amazes me that he gets blown by so many times.

IMO that’s one of the reasons why it makes sense to put AI on the bench, so that he has to play less time against 1st string pg’s and sg’s. I think most of agree with Rip and Stuckey need to be paired together just like AI and Afflalo. Isn’t that much easier to do if we start Rip and Stuckey?

I’m not trying to bash AI or say Rip/Stuckey are perfect, but I think setting our line-up this way gives us the best opportunity to maximize what we can do as a team.

by Jim on Jan 9, 2009 4:00 PM EST reply actions  

Rip is out tonight and likely for Utah too, but Sheed is probable tonight.

by Jim on Jan 9, 2009 4:05 PM EST reply actions  

Alright if everyone’s gonna argue over stats in talking about at AI, then lets just lay ’em all out there and let people decide for themselves:

Here are this seasons per 36 minutes stats for AI, Stuck, Rip:

AI (on Det)—> pts:16.9, ast:5.3, reb:3.4, stl:1.6, to:2.7, fg%:.415, fta:5.4, ft%:.827, 3p%:.311

Stuck—> pts:16.8, ast: 6.4, reb:4.0, stl:1.6, to:2.9, fg%:.467, fta:4.5, ft%:.768, 3p%:.355

Rip—> pts:17.9, ast:3.4, reb:3.5, stl:0.7, to:2.0, fg%:.451, fta:4.3, ft%:.892, 3p%:.359

First of all, its kinda amazing how statistically similar Stuck and AI are at this points in their careers. AI’s been slightly less turnover prone, but he scores less efficiently.

I don’t feel like writing out the more advanced metrics, but if anyone’s curious check out:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/iversal01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/stuckro01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hamilri01.html

I’d argue both subjectively and from the stats, that AI and Stuck bring a lot of the same strengths and weaknesses, and that Rip makes sense as a starter because his strengths balance out some of AI’s or Stuck’s weaknesses. That shouldn’t read as a judgement on AI or Stuck, its just what I think would be best for the team.

Anyway, we’re gonna need Stuck, Rip and AI to be at their absolute best to have any reasonable shot of beating the Cavs or the Celts… I don’t think we’ve gotten anything close to the best out of either AI or Rip yet this year, so I think it makes sense to keep tinkering with different rotations, or even starting line-ups to try and get to the point where they are producing at a level where we could challenge those teams.

by Gabe on Jan 9, 2009 4:47 PM EST reply actions  

crap :( very sorry for the giant double post.

by Gabe on Jan 9, 2009 4:51 PM EST reply actions  

So here’s each Pistons’ starters record as a starter:

1) Amir 10-3 .769
2) Stuckey 13-4 .764
3) Prince 21-12 .636
4) Sheed 19-11 .633
5) Rip 16-11 .593
6) AI 17-14 .548
7) Brown 8-7 .533

@js10jj – Yes, there are AI haters, but I don’t think anyone here hates AI. We simply want to win, and AI’s reputation seems to be obscuring the fact that, at 33, he’s very… well… mediocre.

by Brad on Jan 9, 2009 4:57 PM EST reply actions  

Chauncey 2-0 1.000?

To quote Garrett as I’m wont to do, I kid, I kid

by Forty on Jan 9, 2009 5:03 PM EST reply actions  

@Forty: LOL, you win this round

by Gabe on Jan 9, 2009 5:06 PM EST reply actions  

Ohhhhhh, some more facts about starting records.

When AI and Stuckey start together they’re 10-4…
When Stuckey starts without AI he’s 3-0…
When AI starts without Stuckey he’s 7-10!!!

by Brad on Jan 9, 2009 5:14 PM EST reply actions  

“Anyway, we’re gonna need Stuck, Rip and AI to be at their absolute best to have any reasonable shot of beating the Cavs or the Celts…”

Ain’t it the truth.

by Petey on Jan 9, 2009 5:39 PM EST reply actions  

@ Brad, What’s your problem with AI? The only reason he doesn’t have a championship is because he has never been on a team that had a legit opportunity to win one. It’s all about timing, and he just never got the better end of the stick, like Charles Barkley, or Reggie Miller, just to name a few, and would have been the samething for KG too if he wouldn’t have got a break in Boston. So you can’t hold that against him, switch him and Kobe when the sixers played the lakers in that finals series and guess what AI gets a ring with Shaq just like Kobe did. And AI has been know to have some bad shooting nights but always makes clutch shots or plays at the end of the game to help his team win. You can’t say that for many other players league. His is a winner hands down!

by js10jj on Jan 9, 2009 5:40 PM EST reply actions  

@js10jj – read my other 50 posts… my problems with AI is boil down to his crappy shooting %‘s, his poor winning %, and his inability to guard anybody. It’s pretty hard to find any statistical evidence that AI is an above average player at 33.

by Brad on Jan 9, 2009 5:48 PM EST reply actions  

All this talk about offensive efficiency. Lets talk defense. AI is a disinterested defender. He gambles. He watches the ball, and he leaves his man forcing the defense to scramble when the ball swings back.

He also gets smoked one on one and in the post.

The sad thing is he has moments of pretty good defense, but he needs to bring that all the time.

Rip is a better defender and should start.

For the record I actually like AI. I think he is misused to a certain extent. He should be put on the second unit and allowed to attack off the dribble with impunity. The Pistons have been crippled the last few games by teams applying the zone. That really takes away what AI and Stuck do best.

AI and AA should always be on the floor as a unit.

Stuck > AI
Rip > Spellcheck
Tay > Fabio
Sheed > Max/Dice
Amir > Brown/Dice

Done.

by Tim on Jan 9, 2009 5:58 PM EST reply actions  

Tim: I agree. It appears that AI can play defense but a number of times falls into that playground mentality that good defense is scoring more points than your man. In his 20’s, he played great defense under that scenario. Not so much now. Given the fact that he’s no longer required to be the vocal point and doesn’t play 44+ minutes a game, I certainly agree he needs to bring it more often.

by MarkButter in SoCal on Jan 9, 2009 6:11 PM EST reply actions  

Brad, all you talk is stats, stats, stats, its not always about shooting percentages, right now Kobe Bryants shooting percetage is down in comparison to his last five years. Is he a player you wouldn’t start either. Iverson has the will and determination that some others players in the league just dont possess when the pistons traded for him they knew what type of player they were getting. So please enough with the dumb stats . With detroits roster I would take a winner over someone who has a little better shooting percentages and one who makes plays. I hoped you liked the game last night – Iversonshot a bad shooting percentage (6-18) but guess what – he made plays to help his team win the game.

by js10jj on Jan 10, 2009 12:08 PM EST reply actions  

Sorry to respond sooner. First, I’m not an AI hater, but I do think AI suffers from the same karmic fate as other great players do: they do not have championship games. Look at Vince Carter or Tracy McGrady. These are great SG/SF who have fantastic individual numbers, showstopping moves, and the desire to win it all. And it will never happen. Not because they’re just “stuck” on bad teams (both have been on teams they could win), but because they just don’t have “it” (whatever it is).

Iverson is the same way. He brings us a lot on the offensive end. As many of you pointed out, he set up the last two baskets of the game. He’s still learning our system, and that does take time. But he’s both an objectively and subjectively poor defender. Objectively, he simply does not have the size or strength to play against the PGs of today.

Subjectively, and this is what is more important to me, he causes our defensive system to fail. He plays like Dikembe is still sitting in the lane, waiting to block a shot after AI gambled on a steal. Detroit still plays man defense, keeping opponents in front of them. AI either cannot or will not play that way, and that allows a mediocre guard like Steve Blake to have 10 dimes and a rookie in Bayless to have his coming out party. Outlaw and Aldridge continually benefited from guard penetration due to AI’s gambling. His way of playing works when you have 1-2 excellent shot blockers in the lane, but we don’t have that system.

That means, for the remainder of this year, and PG who is willing to drive will do well against us. That doesn’t mean we’ll lose more often, but it does mean we have to be a much better offensive team to compensate for AI’s defense. Now, maybe, when AI gets really comfortable here, we’ll score 10 more points per game. But we’re not there yet, and I guess I’m a hater insofar as I don’t think we’ll ever get there with him.

by Matt on Jan 10, 2009 3:25 PM EST reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

A Detroit Pistons blog with completely fair and unbiased opinions of 29 of the Association's 30 teams. Read up and share what's on your mind.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Swedish_chef_small
Draft Day Dreams: Scott Machado
Largelogo_gurk_small
Off Topic Thread, Week of 1/30/12: Tech Geek Edition
Swedish_chef_small
The Pistons visit the City of Brotherly Love

Recent FanPosts

Small
Let's make a trade
Darko_milicic_small
ESPN Lottery Machine is Here!
Draft_100625_013_small
Blame Joe Dumars
Largelogo_gurk_small
Off Topic Thread, Week of 1/23/12: Your Pet Team Edition
Swedish_chef_small
Off-Topic Thread Week of 1/15: Snowball Smuggler
Swedish_chef_small
Too Soon? Draft Day is coming. Prepare for Combo Forwards
Screen_shot_2012-01-22_at_2
2011-2012 DBB Community Created Game Threads!

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

FanShots

Quick hits of video, photos, quotes, chats, links and lists that you find around the web.

Recommended FanShots

Been there!
I'm Totally Famous
"Man, there's no way to sugarcoat it: This is bad basketball"

Recent FanShots

All-Star Reserves Announced, Minus Greg Monroe
NBA Rookie Rankings V
Scott Machado: A Point Guard With Vision, Even if He Needs Glasses
Pistons' forward Jason Maxiell eats less, plays more
STEP AWAY FROM THE MOOSE
Brandon Knight gets acquainted with his new mask.
Where is Canada’s most romantic city?
Chauncey Billups likely tears achilles
Ben Wallace: Pistons Don't Have & Must Get Elite Defender
Happy birthday Garrett!

+ New FanShot All FanShots >


Managers

Screen_shot_2012-01-22_at_2 Packey

Mattw-h_small Matt Watson

Featured Contributor

Largelogo_gurk_small brgulker