Seems like the opposite tilt of DBB.

I’m sticking to my guns. Iverson should come off the bench. He’s the lesser defender and is easily picked off. He still ball watches and gambles to the detriment of the team defense. He can play his style better with the 2nd unit of Afflalo, McDyess, K Brown & Maxiell.

I think Amir should be traded for a #4 who can play decent defense and stay on the court.

Starting someone who is forced to the bench at the beginning of the 1st quarter of every game because of foul trouble is the height of insanity.

If the Pistons want to be really competitive they need a solid #4 who can play decent defense and stay on the court for 30 – 35 minutes a game.

Johnson’s foul problem is excerbated with the Pistons because none of the guys behind him can play decent defense. Dyess can still rebound but his ability to guard anyone away from the basket or rotate from the weak side is non existant.

Maxiell is a terrible defender and not much better rebounder.

Johnson while a faily good defender can’t stay on the court.

Trade Johnson for a #4 who can play decent defense, if they can score all the better, and stay on the court.

I don’t understand how anyone can look at this situation and say “yeah, move Rip to the bench”.

AI has been shooting under 40% for the six games in which Rip has been sidelined— and still being fed 19 attempts per game. Hamilton, on the other hand, shot 51% from the field in the month of December.

AI is a terrible defender, Hamilton is one of the better 2 guards in the league on D.

Hamilton’s offense is predicated on finding an open spot on the floor for a catch-and-shoot alongside a well-distributing PG. We have one of those in Stuckey. Moving Hamilton to the bench would limit his minutes with Stuckey, thereby playing him outside of his natural skill set. Iverson creates his own shot, something he hasn’t done as our starting two because he’s playing without the ball in his hands.

Our starting five needs better 3-point shooting. Hamilton is far superior to Iverson.

Last, taking Iverson off the bench would allow him to run the show, to take it to the hole— which he is NOT doing as a starter. Instead, he’s settling for jumpers.

I really don’t see any sensible justification for keeping Iverson as our starting 2 and bringing in Rip off the bench. I’m hoping Curry feels the same way.

MP – couldn’t agree more. Iverson is such an interesting player. I think you could put him out there with any team in the NBA and he’d shoot at least 40% for the sesaon. And I don’t think there’s a team on the NBA he could play for where he’d shoot over 47%. Equally amazingly, he doesn’t seem to get any more or less efficient as his usage changes, which is crazy.

It means that if you can put him out there with a unit that will be above average defensively, almost no matter how bad said unit is on offense, he will make them an average offensive team (since he can produce at an average efficiency at almost an arbitrary usage rate). But that’s actually pretty valuable, so long as your alternative is below average offense. Thus, Iverson is best-suited to playing on bad teams (which tend to be below average offensively) or off the bench (since benches tend to be below average offensively).

People are way too quick to point out how few great teams Iverson has been on. He also hasn’t been on too many bad teams (really just the end of his days in Philly, right?) We just need to play him with our worst players and watch him turn them into an average offensive unit (and thus an above average offensive bench).

Conversely, can you imagine a player like Hamilton on a bad team? I think he’d average 8 turnovers a game creating for himself…the logic for why Rip should start is ironically the inverse of why Iverson should not.

I couldn’t have said it better, Forty. I totally agree.

Iverson needs to be in a position where he can be himself, naturally— and on the Detroit Pistons, that is off the bench.

I say they both go to the bench. Put McDyess in their place and go Big Ball.

“Hamilton’s offense is predicated on finding an open spot on the floor for a catch-and-shoot alongside a well-distributing PG.”

Right. Then you have no way to deform the defense. And aside from black swan events, that means you have no way to win a title.

If the goal isn’t about winning a title, we’re involved in different discussions.

The Masked Avenger can provide crucial punch for this team off the bench, but he’s not the hub of the winner this team should be. We can only go as far as Iverson’s ability to draw defenders can lead us. Lots of folks on this roster can succeed playing 4 on 3.

And I understand many folks here are still on a nostalgia tour, but there’s a title out there this year that’s there for the winning. Perhaps someone can put together a “tribute band” where guys who look vaguely like Chauncey, Big Ben, and Rip can entertain the faithful 82 times a year…

Good point petey, when it comes to winning titles and team success, rip’s ncaa title, nba title, and 6 consecutive ecfs just don’t stack up to ai’s resume.

“Good point petey, when it comes to winning titles and team success, rip’s ncaa title, nba title, and 6 consecutive ecfs…”

Y’all had a great balanced team for a while there, but without a player to deform the defense, it’s no wonder you could only break through once.

2004 is really the only title in the past 25 years won by a team that didn’t have a player that couldn’t be played straight-up.

And we’re talking about college? We’re talking about college, man. I mean, how silly is that? We’re talking about college. College … not the NBA … not the NBA we live and die for … We talking about college … College … What are we talking about? College?

The 2004 indiana pacers think rip was tough to contain…I understand they had some above average defensive players too

Petey,
Calling our 2004 blowout championship a black swan event— after we followed it up with a Finals game 7 the following year isn’t just foolish, its insulting.

Then saying “many folks here are still on a nostalgia tour”, even more insulting.

“but without a player to deform the defense”

Thank god we finally have one of those. His name is Rodney Stuckey, not Allen Iverson. And Iverson’s “deforming the defense” has only earned him personal accolades, nothing in the team game that is NBA basketball.

The one season you spend here would be a lot better suited if you didn’t insult what we stand for. This is a Detroit Pistons blog, not an Allen Iverson blog.

I’m 100% with Forty and MP here. There isn’t anything to say that they haven’t already said.

I have spoken.

If I had a great team and could add one or the other, I’d take rip. If I am an average to below average team, I’d want AI. It’s not clear to me that that definitively answers who is better. The nba certainly pays the latter type of player more than the former…but that could just be a function of supply and demand (there are relatively fewer players like iverson that can carry an average offense, and there are more teams that aren’t contenders than are.)

Karl Malone and Charles Barkley think that AI’s career accomplishments are satisfactory. Winning a ring isn’t necessary…

I wish the AI bandwagon would move on out of town. AI will not be back next season, hopefully he doesn’t let the door hit him on the way out.

Why would AI start over Rip when Rip is the one who will be back in the starting lineup next season. Setting yourself up for failure. Remember guys, Joe Dumars extended Rip to feed his ego… just like Dumars pays guys for what they’ve done for the team in the past, just ask Ben Wallace.

I wonder how jealous AI gets to see Richard Hamilton put on his championship ring at the end of each night… it must really piss him off to see that all of his showboat one on one dribbling is so much better than Rip’s “thank god I didn’t dribble it off my leg this time” ball handling but he doesn’t have a ring. Someone wanted to count AI’s game winning shot attempts since being in Detroit like anyone cares… the only game winning shot attempt we care about here is the one that doesn’t go in.

A black swan event… I call it a 5 game sweep considering how dominant Detroit was against LA in all 5 games. If not for an “oh my god” fadeaway 3 in Game 2, Detroit sweeps easily.

“just like Dumars pays guys for what they’ve done for the team in the past, just ask Ben Wallace.”

just ask Chauncey Billups who never had his contract re-worked, he played on the MLE 4 seasons before having to opt out to get extended. Chauncey Billups who made a name in Detroit just like Ben Wallace made his name in Detroit…

If AI wants to come back? Bi-annual exception, and a bench role.

I thought Rip is opting out after this season.

Yeah, I also agree with everything MP and Forty said.

“If the goal isn’t about winning a title, we’re involved in different discussions…We can only go as far as Iverson’s ability to draw defenders can lead us.”

I completely agree that having players who can break down defenses and draw defenders is huge, especially come playoff time. However, when said player is shooting 41%, has a 16.43 PER, and is a huge defensive liability he’s not going to lead us to a title no matter how good his ability to draw defenders is (and it’s not as good as it used to be).

Denver sure is dying these days without AI’s “ability to deform the defense.” It must be a black swan event that they’re 24-9 and looking like one of the elites in the West since Billups came on.

LB,

Had he not sign the extension, he likely would’ve opted out at the end of the season considering his extended deal pays him more than he was making.

Perhaps this dead horse needs to be beaten some more. Nah.

Petey: Where losing any (pseudo)friends he might have made here happens.

Trust us, we merely put up with your AI circle-jerk bullshit because he is (unfortunately) on our team now, and nobody loves their team like ’Stones fans.

I can’t get over calling the 2004 championship a “black swan” either. We went to the ECFs in 2003 (granted got beat down). Then we annihilated the Lakers, winning a couple blowouts, while losing one close game in OT. The next year we would lose a heartbreaking series in which San Antonio won the only “coin-flip” game (and you could argue their win in game 7 was the next closest coin flip). We outscored them in the series. We then had the best record in the league in 2006 with 64 wins. And the team would go on to be in the ECFs until…wait they still haven’t lost before the ECFs!!!

If the 2004 championship was just some 9 standard deviation event, why was the team so successful for so long?

If you want to talk about black swans, can I make a nomination? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_NBA_Finals

That team’s best player was one of the lowest efficiency players to lead a team to an NBA finals appearance in history. I’m guessing you’ll find that’s the real unusual event.

Let’s be clear: at no point in Iverson’s career would you have rather had him than Chauncey Billups from 2003-2006. That’s not to say Iverson didn’t have a better overall career than CB. But I’d take Chauncey’s peak over his any day of the week. And there aren’t many guys who have won the MVP award that I’d say that about.

Boney: Rip’s due $11.375 million next year from the original deal. He signed a three-year $34 million deal beginning in 2010-2011. That actually averages out to $40,000 less per year than what he makes next season, the big season he could’ve left on the table. Your math skills, apparently like your understanding of Rip’s belief in his value, are sorely lacking. Despite your repeated personal guarantee this summer, he didn’t opt out. Sad trombone.

“I can’t get over calling the 2004 championship a "black swan" either.”

But it really was. Merely having good players at every position without having a guy who can deform the defense by attracting extra defenders means you’ll do well, but almost never get all the way through to the ring. It’s why the current version of Utah can possibly go deep into the playoffs, but is almost definitely not on a trajectory to win a title.

I take nothing away from the ’04 Pistons. They were a great team, and they got it done. But doing it the way they did it is an EXTREMELY unusual occurrence in the NBA.

And in case there is any confusion, calling them a “black swan” is truly not an insult. It’s just saying it’s a very rare occurrence.

“Denver sure is dying these days without AI’s "ability to deform the defense." It must be a black swan event that they’re 24-9 and looking like one of the elites in the West since Billups came on.”

Like I said, if the goal isn’t about winning a title, we’re involved in different discussions. And Denver’s not going to compete for a title this year.

May I add to Forty here:

The only reason to currently want AI over Billups is two fold.

1) The departure of Billups opens up significant minutes for Rodney Stuckey. I look at this as an investment in the future. Stuckey isn’t better than Billups and likely won’t be next year, either. However, his learning curve has accelerated and in a couple of years he’s going to be our no doubt best player (hell, he might be by the end of this season).

2) We were not going to win a title this year or next without a significant change to the lineup or a couple of really lucky bounces. The trade doesn’t change that fact. Accelerating the learning curve for Stuckey re-opens our window several years sooner than otherwise would have happened by keeping Billups around.

All things being equal, I’d rather have kept Chauncey. I think it’s pretty clear that trading Chauncey was the right long term move. Besides, it gives us someone else to root for come playoff time when we inevitably make an early exit that we’d all have liked.

Petey, I don’t understand your arguments re: AI. It’s not like Denver was going to win a title with him, and they’re probably not winning a title without him unless they get the same lucky break we’re looking for. Both teams had legitimate motivations to make the trade, and both GMs knew that it was a net-zero move for this season. Denver got a pure PG who’s likely to remain a very good player for the remainder of his reasonable contract and shores up a weakness. Detroit got to unload salary that allows them to make a major FA move to bring in a scoring big man while opening up minutes to develop their young talent.

In regards to having a player who can “collapse a defense,” ask Kobe and the Lakers how that’s worked out the last couple of years. The reason they made the Finals last year and are a favorite this year is because they have a legitimate second banana whose game compliments Kobe. Let’s face it, Billups compliments Melo way better than AI did. AI compliments nothing in Detroit. He gives them something they haven’t had in two ways, a big time volume scorer and a major defensive liability. It should be abundantly clear by now that Stuckey is the future and without a willingness to move to the bench permanently, AI will be gone at the end of the season. Remember, Dumars extended Rip after he knew he was getting AI. He did not lock up an all-star player he’s had for 5 years for another 4 with the intention of shoving him to the bench.

“And Denver’s not going to compete for a title this year.”

But Petey, Carmelo Anthony does all the “deforming of the defense”. Surely that makes them contenders.

“And in case there is any confusion, calling them a "black swan" is truly not an insult. It’s just saying it’s a very rare occurrence.”

Nono, it is insulting to us. You noticed we went to game seven in the NBA finals the following year, like many said above. We were in the ECF the year prior. If lightning struck in quick succession just an inch away from where it fired the season before, that does not a black swan make.

“But Petey, Carmelo Anthony does all the "deforming of the defense”

A fair point, whether you meant it seriously or not. But it’s REALLY hard to make the thing work with a small forward as the attention-getter. You generally need the player who gets the extra attention from the defense to be a post player or a ball-handling guard.

Historically, that’s the way most titles get won.

“Nono, it is insulting to us.”

You’re an easily insulted man, Mike Payne.

It’s insulting because you lack perspective on this team. You come here and you parrot all this AI nonsense and talk about how we don’t know diddly about Afflalo when we’ve all been debating him for years. You call 2004 a “black swan” without realizing the context. Winning a title with the kind of team we had might be unusual but that’s probably because having a GM as good as the one we have is unusual. You imply 2004 was lucky. It wasn’t, we killed the Lakers. We beat the team with the best regular season record in the ECF. We downed Wade and Shaq the following year before losing in 7. The Pistons weren’t lucky, they were damn good and were thisclose to being great.

Petey – LeBron James and Larry Bird think your theory that small forwards are sub-optimal attention getters is bunk. And don’t tell me LeBron hasn’t won any titles – I would bet my life savings that barring injury he gets 1 or 2, minimum.

All other things being equal, you’d expect small forwards to be the best player on 1/5 of title teams. So you’re right that it’s “unusual” to win with a SF just like it’s “unusual” to win with any position. But the standard of proof when the null hypothesis is only 20% is very, very high.

“Petey – LeBron James and Larry Bird think your theory that small forwards are sub-optimal attention getters is bunk. And don’t tell me LeBron hasn’t won any titles – I would bet my life savings that barring injury he gets 1 or 2, minimum.”

I actually agree with all of your points here. My argument was phrased a bit more precisely than I think you appreciate.

Winning titles with your guy who deforms the defense at the ‘3’ is somewhat unusual, but not rare enough to qualify as a black swan.

One caveat I’d add is that Bron is a positional anomaly. While he certainly should be classified as a ‘3’, he actually initiates most of his offense in the places and ways a ‘2’ guard would, which is why doubling him creates such problems. His handle is phenomenal, crab dribble or not.

But if we take Bron out of the equation as being a unclassifiable freak of nature, my argument is that it’s guys like Larry Bird, ’Melo, Dominique Wilkins, Dr. J, and George Gervin who are difficult to make the focal point of a title winner. You need a focus around a post player or a ball-handler to make the task easiest, since doubling them creates the most problems for the opposition.

Yeah, it’s a bigger problem for the opposition to double team a guy in the post than it is to double team a guy who can play the post, shoot from the outside, or drive to the hoop. Those kinds of guys are way less dangerous than guys who strictly play the post.

Dude give it up, what you’re selling we’re not buying. Any of us.

If Larry Bird were a black swan he’d just be average

-IsiahPetey’d

“You imply 2004 was lucky.”

If you think “lucky” and “unusual” are synonyms, I think what you infer from my writing is likely quite different from anything I’ve actually implied.

“we killed the Lakers”

FWIW, I was one of the few people outside Detroit who actually thought you were going to beat the Lakers in that series. If you single-cover Shaq, that team becomes quite ordinary, and you had one of the few players in the league who could actually get away with single-covering him. I won money at long odds on you in that series.

The bloggers seem to be caught up in the win streak with Rip out, but to the comments are pro-Rip as the starter.

My thing is why invest so much of our resources into Iverson? Does anyone feel like he (sans Chauncey) was the missing piece to this team getting back to the Finals? He doesn’t fit the mold no matter how much pressure Curry is under to feature him.

What are the odds of Iverson returning? Not nearly as good as the contractually urged Hamilton. Starting Iverson is basically saying to Rip- we’re giving the temp your desk, here’s a nice cubical for you at the back of the office.

“the comments are pro-Rip … (Iverson) doesn’t fit the mold … Starting Iverson is basically saying to Rip- we’re giving the temp your desk, here’s a nice cubical for you at the back of the office.”

Strike up the tribute band! Bring back Corliss Williamson and Mike James!

Nostalgia kills…

@Petey:
“You’re an easily insulted man, Mike Payne.”

“Strike up the tribute band! Bring back Corliss Williamson and Mike James!

Nostalgia kills…"

I’m actually a very even-keel guy in person. But I am damn passionate about this team. And when some AI fanboy comes to a Pistons blog and knocks our achievements, claims insight about DET players who we know better, calls us out-of-touch due to nostalgia and insults the other readers here (see Brad, Boney)?

Yeah, you can say I get a bit insulted.

Weird that Petey is so ridiculous that you’re defending Brad. Although I find myself agreeing with him a lot more lately. After last season’s playoffs and the summer, that seemed impossible.

“But I am damn passionate about this team.”

Welcome to the club.

“Weird that Petey is so ridiculous that you’re defending Brad.”

Let no one say that Petey doesn’t choose his antagonists wisely.

“After last season’s playoffs and the summer, that seemed impossible.”

No doubt, OM, even though I wanted to take a shovel to the guy for his brutal pessimism, he’s still a DBBer— which is more than I can say for Petey after he leaves next year with Iverson.

@Petey:
“Welcome to the club.”

See, the difference is everyone here will still be damn passionate about this team next year. When Iverson leaves, so will any “passion” you have now.

Strike up the tribute band! Bring back Corliss Williamson and Mike James!

Nostalgia kills…

Having the opinion that Rip is the better option to start than Iverson has nothing to do with 2004. It’s my take on the here and now.

“Having the opinion that Rip is the better option to start than Iverson has nothing to do with 2004. It’s my take on the here and now.”

Agreed, PN. It also has nothing to do with “who’s better”, only whose skill sets are better suited to starting and whose are better suited to being #1 of the second unit.

MP – my feelings are hurt that you didn’t comment on my Larry Bird/Isiah/black swan comment. I feel betrayed right now :)

“See, the difference is everyone here will still be damn passionate about this team next year.”

I continue to aver it’s more likely than not that the whole crew will be back for another year.

After that, it’s your team. But in the meantime, I bleed the same Piston royal blue that you do.

My feelings are more hurt than Dice’s ribs, Sheed’s foot, and Rip’s groin combined.

@Forty:
The pain is my own! When I don’t comment, it means only that you and are (as always) in agreement. You said it perfectly, my friend.

@Petey:
“But in the meantime, I bleed the same Piston royal blue that you do.”

Did someone hire you as a temp?

“Did someone hire you as a temp?”

One day you’re rooting for Chauncey, and the next, you’re rooting against him.

In the NBA, as in life, we’re all temps.

I will not, for one minute, be rooting against Chauncey

Ok, fine. I’ll say it. It’s not about the name on the back of the jersey, it’s the one on the front.

Could not agree with Forty any more. While Chauncey may no longer wears these colors, he remains a hero of mine. I will not root against Chauncey Billups.

So no, we’re not all temps.

I think BG in the first comment of the PistonsNation link is spot on. The personnel in the second unit seem much more suited to Iverson’s talents. Spellcheck is a great perimeter defender and we could all marvel at his paired +/- numbers with AI. Spellcheck and Fabio have trouble creating for themselves, but they could greatly benefit from Iverson’s penetration. The game a while back when Iverson assisted something like four Herrmann 3s was a thing of beauty.

The bigs are good defenders who can clean up on Iverson’s many misses (Maxey, McDyess, and Amir are all good on the offensive glass) and defensive gambling, and they’re all pretty decent finishers (even Kwame worked well with AI against Portland). That seems like a pretty potent bench that could do very bad things to other teams on both sides of the floor, and Iverson would pretty much have free reign to do his thing.

Like the original post says, benching either is a much more attractive option than smallball, but I don’t see why benching AI would be such a bad thing.

“I will not, for one minute, be rooting against Chauncey”

In the last minute of the game, with the Pistons up by 1, and with Chauncey holding the ball, you won’t be rooting against him?

I’m not saying you shouldn’t still have much love for the dude. But if you’re not rooting against the guys wearing the Powder Blue uniforms tonight, you’re a lousy Pistons fan.

“you’re a lousy Pistons fan”

Temper that Forty, with the fact that its coming from a Temp.

If Chauncey hits a last second shot against us to win, I’ll smile and say see you in March old friend. You are a class act, one of my favorite people, and an awesome player.

I hope Chauncey wins the next 5 MVP awards, wins 10 titles with Denver (assuming we couldn’t win any), and proves this trade to be the worst in league history. He’s my guy, and he always will be.

You do cheer for the name on the front of the jersey. But I think the reason most people are drawn to sports is because they also fall in love with the players. Did you watch what happened when Griffey got a hit his first time back in Seattle? Or have you ever seen parents watch kids who are on two different teams? I don’t think rooting for a team means you actively wish bad things for the other’s players…

It’s almost necessary now to have Rip come off the bench since Stuckey and AI have been playing well together. That’s what we should try out first, at least. If Rip struggles a lot, put him back in the starting lineup and have AI come off the bench for a while.

And remember what AI said once before:

“A lot of people might look at it like it’s a selfish thing or something like that,” Iverson said. "Why wouldn’t I start? I’m the franchise player here. I don’t know any franchise players that come off the bench. I don’t know any Olympian that comes off the bench. I don’t know any All-Star that comes off the bench. I don’t know any former MVP that comes off the bench. I don’t know any three-time scoring champion that comes off the bench.

“I don’t know any first team All-NBA (player) that comes off the bench. Why Allen Iverson? Why should I come off the bench? … I think it is an insult to me. Who I am as a player, who I am to this organization, who I’ve been to this organization, that’s an insult to me to come off the bench if I’m a starter.”

But again, he’s not the franchise player in Detroit.

@Fadel:
“It’s almost necessary now to have Rip come off the bench since Stuckey and AI have been playing well together. That’s what we should try out first, at least. If Rip struggles a lot, put him back in the starting lineup and have AI come off the bench for a while.”

The thing is though, AI/Stuck are NOT playing well together. Stuckey is playing well, yet AI has shot under 40% in the six games since Rip has been out. Meanwhile, before his injury, Rip shot 51% in December (!).

Rip will be a better compliment to Stuckey, just as he was well-suited to play alongside Billups. We need to let Iverson do what Iverson does— take the ball on the dribble and work his magic. The best opportunity for him to do that is on the 2nd unit. You don’t take a player like Rip who is phenomenal next to Stuckey and put him on the bench, where he can’t create his own shot.

LB,

Can I get an “I told you so” at least? Jesus man, you’re not on top of your douche game today…

Considering the contract he originally signed was 7 years, $62 million with an option to opt out after year 6, I’d argue that no matter what his current year salary and next year’s potential salary would’ve been, his new 3 year $34 million dollar extension is more on average (since you’re only looking at this year and next when comparing the next 3 years) than his current contract.

Ben Wallace is making less this season than he was last season because of the backloaded contract he signed with the Bulls.

If you want to argue semantics, Rip technically is earning $8.8m per year on average with his current contract and he will be earning, on average, $11.3m under his new deal. I mean, if you in fact want to take the average of his new 3 year deal and compare it to the final 2 years of his 6 year deal.

So, sad rusty trombone for you again douche. Did I answer your 3 riddles correctly?

Hey, MP, how many games has AI shot under 40%?

@Craig:
In the six games without Hamilton, Allen Iverson is averaging 38.1% from the field.

thanks, I hadn’t seen that stat on this blog before.

More should, because folks are still hollerin’ for more Iverson starting— and not in his natural role.

Petey – feel free to watch the two top plays from June 24, 2007: http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/multimedia/tp_archive.jsp?c_id=cin&ym=200706

What a bunch of “lousy” fans at Safeco eh?

“I hope Chauncey … proves this trade to be the worst in league history. He’s my guy, and he always will be.”

Go buy a Nuggets jersey. Lousy Pistons fan, you are. I’ll be rooting for Detroit tonight.

I love J.R. Smith, but I’ll be rooting for him to get 40 in a losing effort tonight.

“You do cheer for the name on the front of the jersey. But I think the reason most people are drawn to sports is because they also fall in love with the players.”

No doubt. That’s why I’d root for the Pistons in the unlikely event of a Sixers/Pistons ECF. I’ve made my choice…

“I love J.R. Smith, but I’ll be rooting for him to get 40 in a losing effort tonight”

Well I want the Pistons to win tonight too…why again am I a lousy fan if I want Billups to have as good a game as possible, and for the Pistons to win? I fail to see how your liking J.R. is any different than my liking CB…save for you only liking J.R. since AI happened to pass through town for a couple years, while I like Billups b/c he, you know, played for the team I’ve supported since I was 5.

“I’ll be rooting for Detroit tonight”

But you won’t be…you’ll be rooting for Iverson’s success in a team context. That team context is Detroit…but it’s not clear to me that you can profess to “bleed Pistons blue” and simultaneously acknowledge your favorite team could theoretically change next year. When people say they bleed this color or that, the implication is that they are permanently a fan of that team; i.e. their fandom is as inextricable from them as their blood. Or do I misunderstand the metaphor?

"why again am I a lousy fan if I want Billups to have as good a game as possible, and for the Pistons to win? "

Well, if you’re rooting against the Powder Blues tonight, then you’re NOT a lousy Pistons fan.

But why do you hate Chauncey so much that you want him to lose?

“But you won’t be (rooting for Detroit) …you’ll be rooting for Iverson’s success in a team context.”

I really fail to see the difference. The win in Chicago where Iverson sat injured in the second half and Stuckey went for 40 was every bit as sweet to me as the win against OKC where Iverson hit the decisive bucket.

A win is a win is a win.

“When people say they bleed this color or that, the implication is that they are permanently a fan of that team”

Meh. I’m a rootless cosmopolitan. I live in a different city than the one in which I was born and raised (Philadelphia).

I have plenty of experience with rooting for NBA teams other than my home city’s. C’est la vie.

I bleed Pistons royal blue because that’s the team I watch for 48 minutes 82 times a year (well, 80 games this year) on League Pass, cuz that’s the team who makes me happy when they win and sad when they lose, cuz that’s which city’s newspaper sports pages I have bookmarked in my browser. That’s all the blood I can give, and it ought to be enough.

This is America. Birth on Detroit native soil is not the be all and end all.

I wasn’t born in Detroit, nor do I live in Detroit, but I’ve been a fan from day 1 with or without your so called “superstar”.

Fans of this team, and more specifically this blog, have been fans since day 1. We actually know who Joe Dumars and James Edwards are and can remember plays they made without having to watch youtube clips just to catch up on the history because your favorite accessory wearing stuperstar is now on the roster.

If Detroit wins with AI, more specifically wins a ring, more power to them. Good riddance though in the offseason… thanks for the cap space

“Fans of this team, and more specifically this blog … We actually know who Joe Dumars and James Edwards are”

Through an odd quirk of fate, I was actually a pretty serious fan of the Bad Boys back in the day, which has been mentioned a couple of times in the comments section of this blog, Boney. You ought to read DBB more often, you tourist.

Also, if you’re curious about how an above-average handle can deform defenses, Zeke’s work is a decent place to start reviewing videotape.

“I really fail to see the difference.”

I think most would agree it’s not that subtle though, right? Let’s use your definition of “fan” – the team that makes you happy when they win, sad when they lose. This sentiment could easily be reworded as happy when good things happen to them, sad when bad things happen.

1. Are you happy about the cap space Iverson represents to the Pistons? The salary flexibility afforded by AI is unequivocally good for the Pistons (irrespective of whether you think he re-signs or not – it’s got option value).

2. How would you feel if AI got hurt tomorrow for the rest of the season, and the Pistons won the title? He’d still get a ring, but he would have had nothing to do with the team’s winning said title. Do you think you’d be celebrating the way the rest of us would?

My sense is you would perceive these things very differently than someone whose primary motivation is “for good things to happen to the Pistons.” In this way, I would argue you are not a fan of the Pistons, but of Allen Iverson.

This has clearly been beaten to death. I will give you credit though. Despite frequently getting ridiculed on here (hopefully politely if by me), you never back down and never take things too seriously. And for that, I give you +1. And that’s all the blood a poster on an internet forum can give.

Boney: I believe I was the guy who said in response to your nonsense that “Rip will re-sign before his contract lapses”. So um, yeah, I told you so?

Petey: Be forewarned, Boney has never been wrong about anything. I’m speaking of course about in his mind, not reality.

So you told me so, knowing full well that the roster moves would go down the way they did? Man, I sure am wrong on this one…

umm, so is Rip making more average salary per year during his extension or during his current contract? In Clipperland is 62/7 > 34/3?

I just want to make sure I don’t have to show my work.

I don’t think Petey needs to be forewarned since he has talked directly to me in quite a few blogposts before this one MommasBoy.

Petey,

I don’t use the term “deform defense”, I usually call it dribbling out the shot clock and the last player to do that on this team was Ronald Murray. I am quite aware of Isiah’s ability to break down the defense but the main difference between Isiah and AI is that Isiah set up his teammates for success rather than taking off balance shot after off balance shot.

I applaud your allegiance to the jock of Allen Iverson. I was once in love with Joe Dumars when he was a player back in the day. I didn’t have my nose directly under Dumars’ sack like you have yours on Iverson’s, but it is nice to have a mentor.

I’d be happy if Detroit won a title with AI or without AI. I don’t hate AI, I just believe he’s a terrible teammate. I’ve seen plenty of his games because ESPN or TNT has chosen to air Philly games or Denver games specifically because of AI and not because the team was any good. I don’t have an appreciation for his game because while he may be instant offense, he is also instant stagnant offense as well when his shot isn’t falling.

He is one of the worst shooters on the team, that is a proven fact. He has shot at a lower percentage than most his entire career. For a guy who can “deform defenses” you would think he’d have at least the shooting percentage of Rip who shoots mostly mid-range jumpers.

But I guess not… like I’ve said about AI before, he’s “all show and no go”. Put him on the big stage and more often than not he’ll show you the bad than the good.

@LB:
“Petey: Be forewarned, Boney has never been wrong about anything. I’m speaking of course about in his mind, not reality.”

That makes two of you.

Wow. A guy who’s not sure what team he’s cheering for next year, whether it’s the Pacers, Celtics, Bulls, Lakers or some other team that real Pistons fans instinctively dislike, is so patronizing and arrogant to call a real Pistons fan a “lousy fan”? What. A. Douche.