Will Hamilton’s number be retired?

The beautiful thing about those 00s Pistons teams were that the starting fives were all complementary and each was flawed individually. Revisionists think Billups is the obvious number for retirement, but they forget that Chauncey didn’t really even begin to reveal his worth until the 2004 Finals Series, and wasn’t considered upper-tier NBA until that 2006 season under Flip (in the Carlisle and Brown era I considered him a shoot-pull-up-threes-first point guard). Last season it became evident that he orchestrated the team, but that was his complemntary piece to add to the collective.

Ultimately, it would seem wrong to only hang one or two of the Wallace/Wallace/Prince/Hamilton/Billups jerseys and ideally they’ll hang all five together or something. But if Rip sticks around a little longer and retires a Piston I’d expect him to go up. Ben Wallace too.

Rip’s been my favourite player since he joined the Pistons. For the most part of seven season he’s been the team’s no.1 offensive option and has had the least AWOL performances of the core guys, which makes it hard to consider him a backseat member. Plus he has character, which I think helps in number retirement (the run-run-run screen-curling style of play and facemask).

rip not just good SCORER, but also GOOD piston team PLAYER. just epinion

Personally, I think it would be a crime for our playoff leading scorer not to have his jersey in the rafters. The guy practically carried us offensively through the 2004 playoffs.

Amazing how an article or two can change my mind. After reading how Rip calls Gordon his brother, that gives me some hope for this season. Not saying that will translate into success, but it really helps chemistry, which was one of the main components of the championship. Just to put into comparison, Rip probably wouldn’t call Iverson his 3rd cousin twice removed.

I think at the very least Ben, Chauncey, and Rip should have their numbers retired as Pistons. Sheed was only here for 4 years or so, and if Tay stays a Piston his career i think his will be raised. But i want one of either Rip or Tay traded (preferably Tay to make room for our 5,000 SF’s).

Rip has been my favourite player since he arrived. I was always a jump shooter, so I just really liked his mid-range game. But he’s become so much more than just a skinny kid running off screens — he’s expanded his game to be a pesky defender, extended his range to be a 3-point threat, has hit numerous clutch shots in the final seconds, and has proven himself to be a leader. I hope he can stay a Piston and have his number retired, along with the other members of that dominant squad.

+1 to Garrett. I love Rip’s game. While playing in college, I tried to emulate what he did on the court.

From a financial standpoint, we almost have to trade him — his contract is just plain bad, especially in a shrinking cap, and especially after inking Gordon.

But as a fan who loves to watch him play, it would be a bitter pill, probably more bitter than shipping out Chauncey, even though it will be tempered by the inevitability of it.

Personally, I’d retire the starting 5 … and perhaps even Dice’s as well. You honor the players who win championships, but perhaps even more importantly, you honor the players who earn the support and allegiance of the fans. The Goin’ to Work Pistons certainly did that, and it’s all but impossible to make a convincing argument against any of them (well, maybe Sheed, but let’s give it a year to see if we all don’t cool off about him, too).

The NBA TV season preview for the Pistons had less-than-stellar expectations for this season.

Chris Webber, as an admitted Pistons fan, said he thought Rip would be gone by season’s end.

You’ve got to think, though, with our glut of players at the 3, that someone will be used as a trade piece alongside Rip or Tay.

Tay’s always been my favorite (note the correct spelling) Piston, in spite of his Kentucky-ness.

Tay + Max = “stud big”

We’ve got more depth at SF than SG at this point (though the depth is largely unproven). That being said, if any of the depth at SF actually pans out, and pans out early, I think Tay has got to go— his value is easily the highest of any of the vets, and I think Daye will replace his production (and better it) within the next two seasons anyhow. Daye’s already got better length, height, range, etc., and Tay basically maxed out his 2nd/3rd years in the league. And don’t give me the “Tay’s great on defense!” shtick— as soon as Ben left the first time, Tay has been thoroughly dominated by quality SF’s while putting up nothing offensively to fight back. I think he needs to go.

What can we get for Tay + Max?

What can we get for Tay + Max?

Not much, to be honest. Max’s contract is bad and his production isn’t much better. Prince’s value is more for next season as an expiring contract than this year as a player.

Any team looking to move a “stud big” is looking for A) promising young players (Maxiell is almost 27 and about as good as he will be) and B) expiring contracts (Prince isn’t until 2011).

I think if we make any moves this season, it’ll be lateral moves or moves that set us back temporarily. So if we move Rip, it’ll likely be a salary dump with maybe a pick/prospect. Unlikely we pair him up with anything to get a talent upgrade at a different position. Same goes for Prince.

If we’re performing well, we’ll probably stay with our current team unless someone gets pants-on-head retarded and gives us a really good deal.

If we’re sucking up the place, I suspect we will move Rip for not much or Prince for also not much.

@Joel:
A different approach to answering that question:
What is a “stud big”? I’d assume someone who averages between 15-22 points per game, per season, as well as nearly 10 rebounds. That list includes:
boozer
jefferson
west
bosh
nowitzki
amare
pau gasol
josh smith

(I excluded obvious passes like Jamison, Randolph and Brand, as well as Villanueva)

Of those, 5 would be under the age of 30 by the time we’d make a trade: Boozer, Jefferson, Bosh, Amare and Smith.

Jefferson is the least likely to be moved, although Love does share a bit too much room with Jefferson. The second least likely is Smith, as he’s got an ugly trade kicker on his contract, and the Hawks are more likely to fire Woodson than move Smith.

That leaves Boozer, Bosh and Amare. The veritable princesses of the “stud big” group. For some reason, for all the talk, I don’t really see Amare leaving Phoenix. If Phoenix actually does move him, it’ll likely be for a solid, starter quality big— because in Amare’s absense, the Suns won’t have shit.

Bosh is 2nd most likely to move, by trade or FA. Would Toronto want Maxiell when they have Reggie Evans (and Amir)? Would they want Tayshaun when they just skullraped themselves into the Hedo contract? We might be able to make a trade that involves Rip instead, but I have a feeling they’d rather see how DeRozan turns out before adding a player in front of him on the depth chart.

That leaves Boozer. Who could easily be had for Rip + Max/other. I’m sure Utah has talked to Joe about it. I’m sure Jod has reasons for that deal not happening. I cannot see why Utah wouldn’t make that deal, other than contract concerns (I bet they’re loving the Kirilenko contract). They’d go from contender to favorite in a heartbeat.

What do we get out of Boozer? We all know pretty well, having talked about this up and down and left and wrong all summer. Most importantly, we get out of Rip’s contract. We have $22 million for next summer. If Boozer works out as our starting PF with CV off the bench, maybe we consider spending and using early bird rights to keep him around. Hell, like the AI thing, that’d be a bonus. Having Boozer and CV on the depth chart at the 4, even with Boozer filling in at the 5 now and then, would likely take away from the development of Daye and Jerebko. If we were to make this trade however, I’d like to see one of those two start over Tay next season.

(oh, and can you imagine moving Boozer to the 5 and bringing Villanueva and Bynum off the bench at the same time? imagine how stretched those defenses would be, absolutely deadly)

I’m prepared for the “boozer, that’s a dumb idea” comments. I feel confident that this idea isn’t as dumb as doubling down to $23 million on the SG position and not making a trade to settle things out, let alone bring in needed talent.

Utah turned down a Hamilton/Boozer swap and countered with a Prince/Boozer swap that Dumars turned down.

I’m all for Boozer, especially given the fact that he’s expiring— I’m already okay with our depth at the 4 and I firmly believe we’ll be able to get a quality big (or 2) for a good deal next summer. But I’m starting to shift further and further into the “trade Tay instead of Rip” camp. I think we’ve got a new, improved, higher-ceiling Tay in Daye, and I think Rip is going to stay right around the same production well into his 30’s. Plus, just imagine our ridiculous backcourt coupled with a dominant post game. If we can keep all our guards in place (I love our backcourt, flaws and all. I really do.) and get some quality post play in order, I think we could be scary.

@Terrence Lynch

Really? That happened? I bet we pull the trigger on that early in the season, much like last year where the CB/AI offer had previously been turned down by Joe D. In this case though, I’ll condone the waffling— those talks were before anybody saw how good our rookie SF’s have looked so far. I bet if it’s back on the table, Joe pulls the trigger.

Also, Ronnie Brewer is one of the most underrated players in the league and he starts at SG for Utah. I don’t think they were willing to stunt a potentially fantastic role-player’s growth, especially when SF is where their real need is. BTW, what the fuck happened to AK47? 5 years ago he looked like he was going to change the game.

I still have a hard time believing Utah would be willing to trade Boozer for Rip. They would be trading the younger, more valuable player, who also comes with a sizable expiring contract, for a SG already in his 30’s, signed to an expensive contract through 2013.

If Rip still had an expiring contract (Why, Jod, why? Why did you give Rip $11.5mil a year through 2013!?!) then that trade would be an absolute no-brainer, slam dunk deal for both sides. But, with his contract, I really doubt Utah would want Rip.

If that trade is actually available, and Jod is choosing not to make it… then JDIAFI.

There are banners for Chuck Daily and Bill Davidson hanging in the rafters, so I think it’s entirely feasible that a “Starting 5” banner could be hoisted at some point- the organization has shown that they’re on the cutting edge of banner raising. I don’t know that I would single any of those guys out- they succeeded as a team & I don’t think we’ll see that sort of chemistry again any time soon.

As for trading Rip, I’m willing to give him the benefit of at least one regular season game before I decide it’s not working out.

Tay for Boozer works straight up…

boozer, that’s a dumb idea

curse you, birdman!

I think that Hamilton will have his number retired. He has already spent almost the whole decade leading the team in scoring, and even if some of the new additions score more than him, he is still an integral part of the offense. I think that the contract extension given to him was Joe D comiting to keeping him around, and I don’t think he’ll get traded right away, even with Ben Gordon here. I think Tayshaun might be traded though.

I expect Ben Wallace to have his number retired. But he was my favorite Piston, so I may be a bit biased.

Yes, I think Hamilton’s number should be retired along with the rest of the starting five. All 5 were vitally important to us winning a championship and I can’t see us only retiring the jersey’s of 3 or 4 of the 5 guys. I like Rob K’s idea of a Starting 5 banner.

@Joel

It was on the Wiretap on RealGM, and mentioned in several articles. Dumars turned down Boozer for Prince, and I suspect the reason why he did is the same reason why Boozer didn’t opt out: Detroit simply doesn’t want him. And I don’t want him, either, really. He wants more than he’s worth, he’s injury prone, and he doesn’t play defense. And I don’t see how we’d have $22 million in capspace. We’re at the cap right now, with only Kwame and MFWB coming off the books (unless Wilcox opts out). Not to mention a dropping cap, several teams with more capspace, and the fact that none of the big free agents would ever come here, and I see little reason to try to get under the cap for 2010. Now 2011. We could rock that pretty easily. Just move Rip for a contract that expires that year instead of 2010, and we could be $22+ million under the cap between Prince, whoever we land, and Wilcox’s expiring contracts. And the 2011 offseason has some intriguing players. We could also use them in trades. Two large expiring contracts could fetch something good.

OT: Flip learned something while in the D: http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/Flip-Saunders-is-the-new-Rasheed-Wallace?urn=nba,197056

I just made a long post on the Jerebko thread before reading this one that basically says everything Joel’s said here.

Tay will be the one moved, not Rip. Many teams would love to have Tay and his reasonable, short contract.

Utah did not offer Boozer for Tay. Portland was trying to execute a three team trade with the Stones and Utah that would have sent Tay to Portland and Boozer to Detroit. I can’t remember who Utah was going to get, but Jod turned it down. Portland is in love with Tay.

@Mike Payne:

How would we have $22M to spend next year if we traded Rip and Max for Boozer and Boozer walked. We would still have about $39M wrapped up on 9 players (assuming Wilcox does not op out). With the cap coming in somewhere between $50 and $53M, that leaves us $11 to $14M, and we would need at least 4 players. I can’t remember what picks we get next year, but I think we will have only two. So, best case we get serviceable players in the draft and have $11 to $14M to split between AT LEAST 2 players.

Oops, guess I should refresh before I submit.
……What Terrence Lynch said.

it seems like tayshaun would be a good fit for lots of teams (portland, the clippers, miami, new orleans, etc).

in order to take on rip’s contract, a team would probably have to both have a hole at SG and also already have no cap space at least beyond next season. the sixers fit this criteria, but I can’t think of too many others.

@Terrence Lynch: (and Waulie):
And I don’t see how we’d have $22 million in capspace.

We have $9,231,952 if Wilcox opts out. Boozer earns $12,657,233 this year. That equals $21,889,185. I rounded up.

I never said we’d have $22 million in cap space. If we added Boozer, we’d have $22 million expiring next summer.

Also, a side note, nothing has officially been mentioned about the 2010-11 cap, only the drop to $57.7M this season. If it does drop down as low as $50 (it won’t), all the more reason to move Rip’s contract for a big expiring chunk. Not to spend in 2010, but to re-up Kwame and MFWB and then spend the greater part when Tay comes off the books in 2011.

I have read that if the jazz trade boozer, they want to save some money this year (they are miles over the luxury tax line) but only if they get a useful player in return.

if the pistons took boozer AND kirilenko, they could save the jazz huge piles of money. they could ask for ronnie brewer or even that knicks lottery pick this coming year. then they could draft a center.

Should Rip’s number be retired? My earliest memories of the Pistons were of the mid 80’s teams so I’m not qualified to speak for “all time greats” when it comes to the franchise. Maybe a few “more experience” posters can help me with this one:

What players in Piston’s history have been better than Richard Hamilton at his position (SG)? I only come up with one: Joe Dumars.

Combine the championship with the records with his rank on the all-time at his position list with his tenure and I think you’ve got to retire his number.

He’s been a remarkably consistent scorer, he’s steadily improved the effective areas of his game as he’s matured, and he’s been a team player. I think this is a no-brainer.

Now… should we trade him? Heavens yes. He’s got a bad contract, his major contribution (points) is being spread out to more places (including someone at his own position), and he’s going to start declining in the next year or two.

The show stopper on the trade is probably two-fold:

1. Finding a dance partner. Rip’s main value in trade is probably to a team who feels he would put them over the top. Not many mediocre teams would care to trade for a guy with a bad contract who probably isn’t going to carry the entire team on certain nights. There would be no reason for a bad team to trade for someone of his age who is in decline.

2. What we can get back. This may not be as big of an issue since just getting rid of his contract and freeing up more playing time for Gordon/Stuckey/MFWB is probably close to incentive enough. It matters, however, if Joe D feels like this is a 3 year rebuilding plan, or a 5 year rebuilding plan. Getting someone valuable for Rip could speed the process significantly.

I am not opposed to trading Rip, but I just don’t think it would be the best idea. We will not be able to get much for him, and we would probably need to accept a bad contract in return.

I doubt Utah would do Rip + someone for Boozer (didn’t they already turn that down?). Utah is screwed big time paying the luxury tax this year. If they take on Rip they’d be paying the tax for years to come. If I was Utah, I’d just let Boozer walk unless I could get an expiring contract and a promising young player in return.

Of course, if I was Utah, I’d have 4 wives and 19 children.

@ Mike Payne
Of course, that $22 million doesn’t include our draft pick’s caphold. And if we aren’t particularly good, it could be $2.5-3 million. And I don’t see Wilcox opting out unless he has a monster season, taking another $3 million out of the capspace. Then you’ve got potential extensions for Bynum and Brown, and all of sudden $22 million becomes less than $10 million. And that’s assuming the cap stays the same.

I still think the best course of action is 2011. Less competition, potentially recovering economy could bump the cap back up, and it’s probably easier to get a quality guy expiring in 2011 than 2010 (those are going to be worth a fortune right now). I’m more for moving Rip for a Tyson Chandler or (heaven forbid) a Samuel Dalembert because not only do they provide a need (decent starting center) but they expire the same time as Prince and Wilcox.

Actually, I’m checking out Shamsports right now. If Detroit traded Hamilton for Boozer straight up, and Wilcox did not accept his player option, AND we didn’t pick up Stuckey’s team option, Detroit would have $38,058,065 in committed salaries. Which would only be $22 million in capspace if the cap increases to $60 million. Of course, you propose a Maxiell/Hamilton for Boozer swap. Which Utah would not do because they are trying to get under the luxury tax, whereas adding Maxiell to the deal would put them further over it. Also, the trade does not work in the trade checker. Utah would have to send salary back. They probably wouldn’t even consider a Hamilton/Boozer swap since they are very high on Ronnie Brewer.

Keep in mind that last year we kept hearing about “$18+ million in capspace” and whatnot. What did our actual capspace end up being? Closer to $16 million, forcing us to trade Spellcheck and Sleepy for extra capspace to bring in Wilcox.

@Terrence Lynch:
Man, maybe I need to have a lawyer draft up my comments so they can’t be taken out of context. I’m saying, plain and simple, if a rip/boozer move happened, we’d have $22 million coming off the books going into the summer of 2010 in the best case scenario. I know there’s a ton of variables that complicate that.

Rip for Boozer is not likely. It is, however, more likely than a move for any other of the “stud bigs” that might fall into Joel’s category. Yes, both sides would likely have to add contracts to that deal to make it work. Point being, it’s a hypothetical, and I think you’re a bit hung up on it. We’ve talked about the mechanics of a boozer move ad nauseum all summer long with every possible pairing.

that aside…

I still think the best course of action is 2011.

I agree, save for the fact that I believe Rip’s contract complicates this. As I said above, if we’re out of Rip’s contract we can spend $ on extending Bynum and Brown alone this summer (as well as new rookie contracts), then saving the rest for 2011 when Tay, Stuck and the rookies (aside from daye) come off the books. We’ll have a lot of decisions to make that summer, and there won’t be much other than scraps to be had in 2010.

Instead, we’ve got a $13 million dollar bill to pay before we do anything these next two summers (and through 2013, my lawyer wanted me to add that part)

What I don’t understand is why Joe traded away spellcheck for cap space to get wilcox, if he already had a decent amount of money tied into maxiell, not to mention the 3 rookies could fill in some minutes at pf.

If anything, he should have given Maxiell on top of afflalo and sharp in exchange for the birdman. At the time, Denver knew what they were getting for Arron and we could have blamed Maxiell’s poor performance on the whole coaching charade and lack of consistent minutes. That provides enough cap space to get wilcox and leaves us without any long term contracts on players who won’t get playing time/produce.

The birdman is much more valuable than Maxiell due to their contracts, but I think Afflalo was the perfect upgrade for them; perhaps the trade might have been able to go through.

Rip’s number being retired: the problem here is Rip is just so damn consistent. ~20 per night. He very rarely goes off for 30+ in a game, so he gets over looked. Is that bad? In some respects since he’s a 2. But then there’s BG. In the era of 10 second ESPN highlights, a guy coming around a pick and hitting a jumper 60+% of the time just doesn’t cut it and that’s unfortunate. I do think if he helps us get to the playoffs this year and perhaps outta the first round, he’s certainly has the right to expect his number being retired giving how little anyone expects from this team and his role now that BG is here.

I’m not worried about this year. Why? Because I just saw the ESPN do the EC and pick the pistons for 2 or 3 in the central. The more telling thing is the pic they used: BG, CV & Rip. I think it says something about the team and about Stuck. Sure he’d like to be in the pic, and given all that’s been written about him being the PG of the future and what not. But that’s the makeup of this team. Nobody is demanding to be “the man.” If everyone knows and accepts their role, that’s a good part of what it takes to be a good team.

Ben signed for the vet minimim. Rip didn’t get squirrely when BG was signed. BG has declared he’s fine coming off the bench. MFWB knows what’s expected of him . . and where in the rotation. It appears the rooks aren’t letting anyone push them around and say the right things. Last year, I was hyped getting AI and I’ve never had a more disappointing, pissed off season with all the bitching.

We don’t have to worry about Sheed sitting out suspended in the 22nd game because he’s hit the tech limit. No more AI bitching about everyone else other than his own diminished skills. These guys actually have said and are showing what they believe in. We’ll lose games but it won’t because someone didn’t show up to practice and missed the defensive signals nor pout about not getting a call and getting teed up for 2 in matter of seconds. We will hustle, we will get beat but we’ll also win our share. And that’s the foundation of a good team. You can’t tell me that mentally some guys last year said “Fuck it. If AI ain’t bustin his ass back on D, neither am I.”

As for trades, I’d wait until we see exactly what we got. As for Utah, they’re already in lux tax hell. Taking on Rip’s contract would put them there for the next 3 years, assuming they want to have a competitive team after Boozer would have come off the books. Take what we’ve seen so far as team wise, and I don’t think you want to add a primadonna like Boozer or Amare. Chris Bosh isn’t a max player, but thinks he is. Guy lifted weights this summer for the first time in his career. . . hmmmm. .. contract year baby !! If he was so good, teams would throw anyone to Toronto for him and sign him to a max contract yesterday (proverbially speaking). Or BC would have already offered him a max contract. When the game is on the line, nothing I’ve seen has convinced me Bosh is looking for the ball. Now, I admit I’ve seen very few Toronto games, but I believe he’d be in alot more 10 second highlight reels, makes or misses, if he was that type of player.

If by committee we can get 15/10 from the 5, I don’t think we can get more on the outside market without destroying chemistry or team or cap. Shaq can get you close to that, but does anyone really want him on our team? Even at 15M/yr? 12M/yr if we could afford it? Trade anyone of 2 or 3 players for Amare, Bosh or Shaq. Is that really going to improve us over the hump when economics are involved to the upper levels of the EC?

And remember, you can’t spell vain without AI being in the middle.

@Mike Payne
The reason why I say “Target 2011” is because it’s much, much easier to move Rip for a 2011 expiring contract than 2010. Like I stated earlier, 2010 expirings are going to be gold this season, with teams fighting over them so they can get that capspace and go after the big name free agents. You could see players like McGrady, Ginobili, Ray Allen get more than they’re worth, just so teams can get that precious capspace for 2010.

But what about 2011? There’s some nice free agents to be had there, too. Unlike the 2010 expirings, 2011 expirings are very prevalent. And unlike the 2010 expirings, where you have to sweeten the deal to get them, the 2011 expirings, they’re more likely to send you assets to take them off your hands. Think about it: 2010 plans aside, I’m pretty sure the Knicks would move Eddy Curry for anything of value. Maybe even include a draft pick or two (if they figure they’ll land LeBron, they won’t need them anyway). If we traded Rip Hamilton for Eddy Curry + 2012 pick, as awful as Curry is, we’d be set up to have quite a bit of capspace in 2011, and an additional draft pick in 2012 that could be a lottery pick, perfect of a rebuilding team. There’s a number of 2011 expirings that we could trade Rip for. Peja, Dalembert, Chandler, etc. And if we land one of those centers (Dalembert or Chandler), we really don’t have reason to extend Brown for the time being, meaning the only major contract we’d be adding between now and 2011 would be Bynum’s.

And Bynum’s situation is another reason why I don’t care for 2010. Even in the best case scenario, we have to cut $4-5 million out of the cap to keep Bynum, making a max level player nearly impossible.

NEWSFLASH! FOR LAUGHTON’S EYES ONLY!

http://sports.espn.go.com/dallas/nba/news/story?id=4580588

How about no numbers retired? I could definitely live with that. Bad Boys compared to Work Boys? No question, Bad Boys. Work Boys who?

Or how about all of ‘em … let’s not pick and choose on those guys. The Work Boys starting five really played a lot of minutes and had equal parts in the success of the 2ks.

@Terrence Lynch:
Even in the best case scenario, we have to cut $4-5 million out of the cap to keep Bynum, making a max level player nearly impossible.

I never said that we should go after a max level player. I suggested we move Rip, extend Bynum and Brown and save the rest for 2011. As for Chandler, I’d rather move Rip early and extend Kwame, as I’d much rather have Kwame for that year instead of 40 games out of Chandler’s big toe. Chandler is garbage. And Dalembert, why not now? Then we just extend MFWB and wait for 2011.

The day the Pistons retire Grant Hill’s number is the day I switch from occasionally watching a Pistons game and checking the box scores to occasionally checking a wiki page about their last couple seasons.

@Mike Payne
You go after guys like Chandler and Dalembert because, unfortunately, you’re not going to get true 2010 expiring contracts for Rip. Teams like the Knicks are going to put together a lot more attractive packages for those expiring contracts.

Does anyone have theories on this:

(a) What exactly was Dumars’s rationale when he signed Rip to the extension? And (b) what has changed since then?

This is the only way we understand why he signed Gordon, and predict who is the most likely to be traded of Rip or Tay.

I ask this because Dumars inked Hamilton to that big extension knowing he was trading Billups and (McDyess) a few days later, right? So we assume that he was essentially solidfying a Stuckey/Hamilton backcourt for the duration of Rip’s extension.

Did anything happen during the season to suddenly suggest to Dumars that a Hamilton/Stuckey backcourt wouldn’t work and he should sign Ben Gordon? I don’t really think so. Dumars knew who the free agents would be when he offered the extension to Hamilton, so I find it hard to believe that he signed Gordon as a replacement for Rip. Thus he apparently signed Gordon because he saw him as the best player on the FA market, because he has long range and a create-my-own-shot clutch the others don’t (nothing we didn’t know before the Rip extension), thus he must have wanted to try both players, one as a potent sixth man.

He also knew that he’d be trading away McDyess, and that he wasn’t interested in resigning R.Wallace (correct me if I’m wrong). So by season end, even after signing CV, he knew this team could be a big-name big away from contending. So how was Joe planning to get that with no money? Four possibilities:

He won’t have to, as this current roster will actually become elite, given the new style of play in the NBA
Somehow the team will eventually fall into a young, cheap up-and-coming stud big via trade or draft
The right offer (read: crazy) might one day come along offering a sureshot big for Rip (or even Gordon?), whether they want him to fill a role, they need to get rid of their disgruntled big and match salary, or they want Rip’s/Gordon’s contract when it’s nearing its expiration date
Defending SFs are expendable and when this formula isn’t working Dumars will trade the coveted but flawed Tayshaun Prince for a big

The first three possibilities involve a long term “wait and see” approach. The last looks more likely now that Detroit has some promising SF rookies (however in Tayshaun’s recent pre-season absences, the team has folded faster than Superman on laundry day, suggesting that perhaps Tay has more intangible value than most of us realise).

CONCLUSION
Prince is more likely to be traded than Hamilton, but don’t be surprised if neither move for some time, if ever.

@Terrence Lynch:
You go after guys like Chandler and Dalembert because, unfortunately, you’re not going to get true 2010 expiring contracts for Rip.

Not sure what that had to do with my comment. Like I said: “And Dalembert, why not now? Then we just extend MFWB and wait for 2011.” It feels like you’re disagreeing when I’m agreeing with you on Dalembert, but my point was— why not now?

Teams like the Knicks are going to put together a lot more attractive packages for those expiring contracts.

The Knicks have nothing to offer Utah. What, trade expiring contracts for an expiring contract? The whole point for Utah is to get something back that they can use going forward, not to let Boozer expire and get nothing in return. Detroit has more to offer Utah than the Knicks.

OT: Marquis Daniels was a solid pickup for Boston.

One minute left, Boston trailing by 3, and New York has the momentum. They need a score, so what happens? They go to Sheed in the post, who kicks it back out. They kick it back to him, and he drifts out to 3 point land for a fade-away that bricks. sigh

And out of a timeout, Sheed with a wide open 3 that hits the heel. I wonder if Boston fans will get tired of seeing that soon? Get in the post, Sheed!

@Garrett:
Ya know, as much as I love Rasheed, maybe his signing with Boston was the fitting Fuck You they deserved? :)

I know this is WAY off topic, and not even the right sport, but can anyone find a website that lists all of the all-time postseason MLB records? Like hits, runs, and all pitching stats and stuff? I remember looking at one like last year that had them all on one page…now i can’t find any site with any records.

@Mike Payne
Utah wants to dump Boozer and doesn’t want to take on any long term salary, unless it’s for a high level player (which Hamilton, unfortunately, isn’t). They’re looking to get under the luxury tax this season and not add any salary in future seasons. It’s why they were pretty upset about Boozer not opting out (they’d rather have nothing than something in this case).

Terrance Lynch:

How do you know what Utah wants?

The only way Utah gets under the luxury tax this season is by giving Boozer away for nothing, to a team with a lot of open cap space.

So… if Utah is desperate to avoid the tax, then why haven’t they dumped Boozer yet? You don’t think Memphis would have jumped at the chance to add Boozer for free, rather than Zach Randolph?

@Terrence Lynch:
Utah wants to dump Boozer and doesn’t want to take on any long term salary, unless it’s for a high level player (which Hamilton, unfortunately, isn’t). They’re looking to get under the luxury tax this season and not add any salary in future seasons. It’s why they were pretty upset about Boozer not opting out (they’d rather have nothing than something in this case).

What does that have to do with the example you brought up and I disagreed with? Instead of generalities, it’ll suit the discussion better if we stick to concrete examples (not trying to be a prick or passive aggressive, just saying, last time i made a generality it led to this entire discussion) You said the Knicks can offer them a better package than we can for Boozer. I disagreed. How could the Knicks offer more than Detroit?

They’re looking to get under the luxury tax this season

No matter who they trade Boozer for, they’re not getting below the tax. The only way Utah can get under the salary tax is to buy out the remaining year of Boozer’s contract. Any trade made won’t have an impact on tax until next summer.

they’d rather have nothing than something in this case

That’s the opposite of what Utah wants.

and not add any salary in future seasons.

Why? After this season, Korver and Harpring also expire, to the tune of $11M. Why not use their biggest chip to bring in some talent instead of letting it walk?

Oh, and by the way, fans of The Right DeJuan:
17 points (7-13 shooting) 10 rebounds, 3 steals, 1 block. 15 minutes of playing time

@ Mike Payne.

If you think Boozer is their biggest chip, then he can certainly fetch better than a 31 year old SG on a bad contract. Considering the fact that they tried to work out a Lee for Boozer swap, I’d say that’s a much better deal.

Utah has turned down a Rip for Boozer swap. They’re quite high on Brewer, so they feel no need to bring in a player who’s much older and on a worse contract.

And Utah can get under the luxury tax through partially guaranteed contracts of other players, and the fact that deals have to be with 125% of each other, meaning they can take back less salary then they send out.

As for why they haven’t done it yet, they have until the trade deadline to move Boozer and get under luxury tax. There’s no rush to move him.

And as for what Utah wants: all reports have stated that they are done with Boozer, and were quite upset that he didn’t end up opting out.

Oh, and as for Knicks offering a better package. They have better picks, some quality prospects, David Lee, and actual expiring contracts. Detroit can’t match any of that.

Terrence:

The luxury tax is set around $71mil next season. The Jazz players combined salaries for next season are $84.6mil. That is a difference of over $13mil.

How on Jod’s green earth can the Jazz “get under the luxury tax through partially guaranteed contracts of other players, and the fact that deals have to be with 125% of each other, meaning they can take back less salary then they send out?”

Please explain…

@TL:
Man, again— what can the Knicks offer Utah that is better than Detroit? David Lee just reupped for one year, so why would the Knicks move him and how would that help out Utah? NY is already WAY over the cap. So they cannot help Utah’s luxury tax issues.

Utah has turned down a Rip for Boozer swap.

Rip is not all Detroit has to offer.

And Utah can get under the luxury tax through partially guaranteed contracts of other players, and the fact that deals have to be with 125% of each other, meaning they can take back less salary then they send out.

No, Utah can’t get under the tax. The Luxury Tax limit this season is $71.15M. The Jazz have $85 on the low end, $96M on the high end in salary depending on the source. Moving Boozer is not enough to get under the luxury tax.

all reports have stated that they are done with Boozer, and were quite upset that he didn’t end up opting out.

So not a single report has suggested that they are trying to get something in return for Boozer, instead of just letting his salary go?

@Gabe:
Thank you. fist bump, cheers

Sorry, I keep forgetting about the Millsap extension. However, they’re unlikely to take on long term salary because while they can’t get under the luxury tax this season, they certainly can next year, and adding any long term salary would keep them over the tax. Right now, they’re going to be paying out the ass in terms of luxury tax, I doubt they want to do this for more than one season.

As for what Utah wants to do with Boozer, almost every trade rumor involves them taking on salary relief is some way, shape, or form.

As for Detroit’s other assets: look, I love this team, but there’s not a single big man on our team better than David Lee and none of our prospects are better than Wilson Chandler.

MP: Right back at ya.
shakes hand cordially holds on slightly too long

Also, this is just unfuckingreal:

Blair’s preseason per/48 minute averages:
36.29 points. 21.7 rebounds. 4.7 assists. 2.9 steals.

(number taken from here):
http://www.dougstats.com/PreSeason/SanAntonioSpurs.html

@Cody

http://www.baseball-reference.com/postseason/

I say retire all 5 of them or none of them. It was a team effort.

not to but into the boozer trade talk, but I tend to wonder if Rip/Gordon/Bynum is the future (and Rip is eventually cycled out for a new PG/SG?). I feel this is Stuckey’s proving year. So there may be some uncertainty with his future. Was Gordon simply the replacement for Chauncey? Will Gordon be Stuckey’s replacement? Will Stuckey remain and Detroit goes combo guard crazy! (Successfully!?)? Will someone be traded for a traditional PG?

And yes to Rip in the rafters, It’d be pretty great to throw a 5 number banner up there. Oh, add Hunter too, sentimental value.

Getting back on track here, if Rip was moved this offseason, I doubt he’d get up there in the rafters. Which is shame because he’s our all-time playoff leading scorer. I kind of like the whole “team” banner, but we kind of already have that with the whole championship banner. Yeah, it’d be cool to have all their names up there, but I can’t think of a single instance of this happening.

@Terrence Lynch:
As for Detroit’s other assets: look, I love this team, but there’s not a single big man on our team better than David Lee and none of our prospects are better than Wilson Chandler.

pulls my hair out

Starting from the top, NY is WAYYY over the cap for 2009-10. So they can’t give Utah what you’ve said they want all up and down this thread. But on to details:

David Lee is an expiring contract. NY has no reason to move him. And do you think Utah is still interested having extended Millsap?

Wilson Chandler— for Utah to pick him up, they’d need to take on nearly $10M in salary. So Utah would move Boozer for 100% back (again, NY is WAYYY over the cap), so they take on two contracts plus Chandler to make it work. Your math doesn’t work.

You said yourself, again, that Utah isn’t into taking on talent, you said “they’d rather have nothing than something in this case”. So why make the move for Chandler?

No matter how you cut it, Chandler is the farthest thing from a Sloan type of guy in the league. Inefficient, poor ball handler, questionable defender.

@ Mike Payne

Look, maybe New York was a bad example. But it doesn’t change the fact that Detroit doesn’t have much that Utah wants. Simple as that. If it was, a deal would have been done, especially since Boozer was interested in coming to Detroit.

@Terrence Lynch:
Yeah, New York was a bad example. You’re still off though, Detroit has a lot that Utah could want. Moreso than most other opportunities. And when did you hear that Boozer was intersted in coming to Detroit? Not anywhere near as much as Chicaog et. al.

@Mike Payne

http://www.sportingnews.com/blog/The_Baseline/entry/view/24899/rumors_have_boozer_heading_to_either_nets_or_pistons_

Obviously, it’s Peter Vescey so take it with a grain of salt. But I think there was some legit interest from the Boozer camp, and the reason why he didn’t opt out was probably because the interest wasn’t mutual. On the Utah front, they did want him to opt out so they could get underneath the luxury tax threshold. It’s why they’re not rushing to move him and take on long term salary.

As for what Detroit can provide, keep in mind that Utah is closer to the lottery than being true contenders. Injury issues aside, Utah has been gradually regressing the past 2-3 seasons. And I don’t think the Jazz personally believe they’re a Rip Hamilton/Tayshaun Prince/whatever away from making a legit run. Not to mention Boozer’s Cleveland fiasco has probably left Dumars reluctant to bring him in without a long term commitment. And that’s assuming he wants two expensive PFs who don’t play defense that can’t play center long term.

@Birdman

A good move for him. I believe that once Jawai gets comfortable and is able to play, he will excite quite a few people.

If you retire Rip’s number, you have to retire Chauncey’s and Ben’s, too. I think Ben is closer to maybe than Rip. It’s not an unreasonable scenario, though.

I can see a trade for Boozer’s expiring contract, but not for Boozer himself. I think Rip would be traded before Tay, they could have dealt Tay a couple of times this summer yet declined. Tay playing for Portland makes a lot of sense, but who do they give up for him? Why a three teamer and not a straight up one?

Finally, in a three guard offense, wouldn’t Stuckey be the odd man out? Watch and see what develops there.

Which reminds me, I had a couple of crazy dreams this summer about some dude who wears 23 wearing a white red and blue jersey. I have no idea how I had those dreams at all. Maybe I was teleported into a parallel universe or something.

I still want Amare. Put the apostrophe where ever you wish.

Is there any truth to the notion that Jerry Sloan doesn’t condone mid-season trades because they fuck up his balance? Should we look for another November 3rd trade?

New DBB rule: If you advocate for trading for Amare, you’re not allowed to complain about Villanueva’s defense.

@MP

Oh, and by the way, fans of The Right DeJuan:
17 points (7-13 shooting) 10 rebounds, 3 steals, 1 block. 15 minutes of playing time

Dear Lord. Again I will say: any team that doesn’t have room for that kind of production on its roster is a team that is destined for mediocrity.

Okay, to the subject of trades. Three of Jod’s moves irritate the heck out of me.

1) Rip’s extension (dead horse)
2) Amir’s salary dump.
3) Afflalo’s salary dump.

Here’s why 2 and 3 bother me so much. Given the economics of the NBA right now, moving big contracts is going to be hard — especially big contracts like Rip’s (long contract for a guy already in his 30’s). So, in order to move a big contract, it’s helpful to have either:

A) Young players on reasonable deals
B) Expiring deals
C) Young players on reasonable, expiring deals

to package with a bigger contract. In other words, AA and Amir were in my view incredibly valuable trade assets that were simply pissed away for nothing.

Now, I’m not a cap expert, nor am I an NBA GM, but it’s frightening to me how Jod threw away those assets in today’s economic climate.

Boozer: No way in heck we get him in a direct swap, unless it’s for Tayshaun. It would need to be a 3-team deal in order for that to work, I think.

Utah: Their owner has expressed reluctance to pay the luxury tax; however, unless they’re giving away Boozer for free, they’re stuck paying the tax; it’s as simple as that. Rip for Boozer is a horrible trade for them, because it puts them in tax hell for three more years and limits their options to improve their team in the future. Adding Tay would help them, but it only amplifies AK47’s bad contract (by creating redundancy at the 3) and retains cap problems.

IF you’re gonna be at the tax, at least be a contender — adding Rip or Tay doesn’t make them that, I don’t think.

Trading Tay: Obviously, he’s our best trade asset. He’s still young, even though he’s got a lot of miles under the hood, and his deal is reasonable. The problem I see: while I’m optimistic about Daye and Jerebko at SF, both of those guys need significant development time, especially Daye. If you think we’ve got defensive problems at the 3 right now — well, let’s just imaging Daye trying to cover Paul Pierce or Lebron James, shall we?

Yes, Rip could fill in some minutes at the three, but that’s a stop-gap at best. What would the long-term solution at SF be if we moved Tay? It’s far too soon to bank on two rookies who may or may not be all they hope they will be.

Boozer in Detroit

Assuming the impossible happens, and Boozer somehow lands here …

Does the thought of a CV + Boozer frontcourt make anyone else cringe, or is it just me? Who’s going to guard Dwight Howard? What about Shaq? What about Garnett+Sheed? Heck, what about Jermaine O’Neal?

Sure, we’d have a stretch offense, but if you thought you saw matador defense last season, you
 —————————
 
Gib uz da Okafur!!!! /Boney’d

brgulker: yup. 100% agree on almost everything.

The Amir trade was especially horrible because we didn’t even clear his entire salary off the books. We got Oberto back for him, and the difference between Oberto’s unguaranteed contract (we had to buy him out for $1.9mil), and Amir’s contract (an expiring $3.6mil) meant we were saving less than half what we would have paid Amir.

Memo to Jod: If you’re going to give away a young player on a small expiring contract for no apparent reason, at least find someone who will take on his entire salary.

Re: Boozer. I’d still be happy if we traded for him, assuming Utah takes back either Rip or Max in the deal. It would complicate the rotation even more, but if Boozer’s healthy and motivated it would raise the teams upside greatly. And getting either Rip of Max’s deal off the books would be a huge long term bonus.

Re “The Right DaJaun,” reading his numbers makes me want to tear my hair also, but. . . . The most likely reason Detroit (and many other teams) passed on him was the belief that his knees made him a huge risk in the long or even medium term. Tearing it up in a few preseason games doesn’t show that concern was unwarranted.

I’m not saying the concern WAS warranted (I’m not a medical doctor), and I certainly don’t wish anything bad to happen to Blair. But it’s not as if teams including Detroit passed on him because they didn’t think he had skills.

Since Oden has been impressive in Summer League and Preseason, I wonder if Portland would do Tay for Przybilla and Outlaw?

Outlaw is expiring, and I think Prz has only one more year. Portland gets their Prince prize. They would probably want some kid of big back, but I really like the trade.

@ TJ Give me three years of Blair on a rookie contract, regardless of his knees.

I still think he’ll last longer than Summers, and he’ll produce a heckuva lot more in the meanwhile.

I’m with MFBR. Long term, medium term aside. Now-ish would have been great, nothing more.

this combines the boozer discussion, waulie’s przybilla comment above, the fact that blazers edge thinks greg oden is finally ready to blow the fuck up, and utah’s desire to save money (even though they can’t get all the way under the tax)

blazers receive: tayshaun + kwame
jazz receive: rip, maxiell, martell webster, jeff pendergraph
pistons receive: boozer, kirilenko, przybilla

utah would decrease their payroll by $7.5 million, which means cash savings of $15 million this year, without cannibalizing their bench (they would still have a large payroll going forward)

portland would have kwame to back up oden, and still be super-deep overall

pistons would increase payroll this season but remain under the luxury tax, and be players in free agency in 2011

Scott, that trade proposal almost gave me a boner.

Yeah, I was against drafting Blair at the time and was a big supporter of Summers, but Summers has looked like trash and Blair has looked like the second coming of Tim Duncan.

However, none are as awesome as the Psycho Swede Jonas Jerebko.

Wouldn’t it just be bizarre to have Kirilenko be your highest paid (by a feaking mile) player?

I still don’t see Utah taking Rip’s contract, but maybe they would to get out of Kirilenko’s. Pull the trigger!

blazers receive: tayshaun + kwame
jazz receive: rip, maxiell, martell webster, jeff pendergraph
pistons receive: boozer, kirilenko, przybilla

Where’s Rip in that deal, Waulie?

Right after the “jazz receive:”, brgulker.

I kind of don’t want to see Kwame go anywhere. I just love the guy. Otherwise I love that trade. If you substitute Wilcox for Cakemaster do the numbers still work? That would be bonerrific.

Wait, just tried it with Chucky Atkins in Kwame’s place…

AND IT WORKS.

That’s right. Then we look like this:

Stuck/MFWB
BG/Washington
Kirilenko/Daye/Summers
Boozer/Wilcox/Jerebko
Kwame/Pryz/Ben

That’s a pretty fierce lineup. Totally unfeasible, however.

@Joel:
Where’s CV?

LOL @ myself :) Reading and comprehension fail.

I like Kwame and all, but:

Przybilla >> Kwame

OT:
I’m seeing Rasheed play in green for the first time right now. God it looks so unnatural. Kind of makes me sick… (I know a lot of folks on here do not like Rasheed, but I’ll always be a fan)

@MP:

I didn’t think I could watch, yet I can’t look away. I hate to love him.

He’s one of those guys you like when he’s on your team and hate when he isn’t. I’ll miss his antics (the fun ones, not the “screw us over” ones) and appreciate what he did here, but he’s a Celtic now. He may as well be a Nazi.

I’ll always love Sheed. Sure, he packed it in last season, and I’ll hate that, but just as Terrence Lynch said, he’s one of those guys you have completely when he’s on the other team but love completely when he’s on yours.

I guarantee I will still find myself yelling, “Ball don’t lie” at the TV multiple times per game.

One more thing: let’s not forget — the parting was mutual. Jod never pursued Sheed this year. It was time to rebuild, and going to a place like the Celtics (or Spurs) is the perfect place for an aging big in the twilight of his career.