What the hell man, Ben Wallace was basically the only piston actually jumping after rebounds. We shouldn’t be giving up 16 offensive rebounds to a team like Milwakee.

As for the defense, I thought it looked pretty good in the first half. In fact the Bucks shot only 41% even after Jennings went off on a tear. The thing that killed them was rotation off screens, once the Bucks started moving the ball around they could get any shot they wanted. One on one defense actually looked better than I expected with Gordon and CV on the court.

I wonder what happened with Stuckey? He was just shredding anything in his path in the first quarter, hitting most of his jumpers (even a 3), and finished with I believe 13 6 and 5. I thought he would finish with something along 22 10 8, not 13 8 6 and 4 turnovers.

I think Bynum kinda cost this game. He was pressing too much for his shot in the 4th and missed a lot of them. He’s gotten completely away from directing the offense and looked like Kryptonate on speed. Not saying its entirely his fault, but CV had the hot hand and he and Gordon should have been the ones taking all the big shots.

Here’s a little interesting tid-bit. We signed Chris Wilcox to the exact same $/year as Hakim Warrick on the same off-season. Warrick scored 21, Wilcox didn’t even net a minute. Kinda wondering why we didn’t just sign Warrick to that same deal instead.

@bmr: I’m pretty sure we had already signed Wilcox before Memphis retracted thir qualifying offer to Warrick and allowing him to hit free agency. What I don’t get is why we didn’t consider Channing Frye more seriously. He signed for only 2mil and is putting up very impressive numbers as a starting C.

My guess is because Austin Daye is basically the same player, with a better handle and less developed body. I think Frye fits in that system so well because it doesn’t require an actual center, just someone tall that will hit jumpers. Detroit on the other hand, needs big bodies because of the pace we play at (which is why I don’t understand why Wilcox hasn’t played more, at the very least he’s bigger than Jason).

Speaking of Phoenix, Amare has failed to impress me so far. I thought he was just taking the pre-season easy, but he has not looked very explosive after the last surgery. And what’s more pathetic is that Frye has been averaging more rebounds. More than likely this will change, but I’m kinda glad that Detroit didn’t make a blockbuster trade for him.

I’m really missing Afflalo right now, he could have contained Jennings a bit and hit a few buckets in that horrendous 3rd quarter.

Stuckey and Bynum have not played well together so far. They really duplicate each other’s strengths. Milwaukee basically stuffed the lane whenever they were out there together and forced them to shoot jumpers.

I think Chris Bosh must have heard that people think he’s soft, because he’s averaging a ridiculous 31 and 15. Granted his team is still on the losing path, so I won’t consider him a legit #1 until he wills his team to play better defense. But still, fathom to think about how scary Miami will be if they sign him and then resign Wade.

Drew, I agree. The three guard lineup with Rip and BG out there was deadly in the first game. The three guard lineup with Bynum and Stuckey not so much.

It’s got to be Bynum/BG/Rip or Stuckey/BG/Rip. It looks like at least two of the players out there need to be able to operate without the ball and spot up.

I used to think that Bynum and BG was the pairing that needed to be limited the most because of their height. Now, I believe it’s Bynum and Stuckey.

has anyone ever had more shot attempts than points for an entire season? through 3 games, bynum has 26 points on 29 FGA. I’m pretty sure this is bad.

also, the magic played an early afternoon game today…without the services of lewis (suspension), vince (ankle), AND pietrus (sick)…and they put up 125 points against the raps.

they started matt barnes, ryan anderson, and jj redick, and killed, on the road, against a playoff hopeful.

@bmr007, I watched Denver play a couple times and Afflalo looked awful. He still has the herky-jerky spaz thing going on. I would have hoped he would have gotten to the point where he could play hard but still be in control.

that’s a shame, he looked really promising last year. I thought for sure he was poised to take the next step and learn how to operate without the ball.

@Scott: Kareem Rush in ‘02-’03 had 244 shot attempts for 227 points, and has come very close 3 other times. Found that in 1 minute of googleing lol. i’m sure there’s plenty more.

Bad Bad Bad loss.

How about Chris Kaman? There was some off-season talk about him and I was on-board for sure, but there were a lot of people doubting his health. If he can keep from falling apart, he’ll have a nice season.

Garrett, look up some of the pieces on the Clipper Curse in truehoop. Whether you believe in it or not, I don’t think you really want to take any chances on players from the clippers. Bad management and coaching has ruined any chance of that franchise from ever being successful. In fact they about the only franchise that I can think of that are historically worse than the Lions.

I think Dyess is about the only Clipper to continue making an impact after having his knees destroyed, albeit at only a fraction of his original ability. With the numbers he had pre-injury, he looked perhaps headed for hall of fame, not competing for 6th man of the year.

I say we trade Will Bynum and Chris Wilcox to NO for Okafor. They need a backup point guard and cap space; we need a dominant defensive center, it’s the ultimate trade!.
[/Michael Jordan]

Nice? The guy’s averaging 22-10 through 4 games (granted, 4 losses). I was onboard for the Prince/Kaman swap but at his current rate they could probably do even better.

In terms of defense, our best players are ben w. prince, rip. I’m afraid that we are in a quandry when it comes to moving any of those guys. Imo we need to figure out some type of package with Max, any of the rooks, and even Kwame. Its going to be awfully difficult to get a quality big for a small.

We’re getting solid play from the C. It’s the PF that we need production from. That’s where we need the upgrade unless CV shows us something much improved.

If New Orleans is playing poorly after 10-15 games or so, management might be thinking twice about investing so much money into Okafor. We might be able to get away with Kwame, Maxiell, and TWDJ (or another future 2nd rounder) for Okafor. That would give them some serious cap relief and a couple of solid prospects.

It was a very depressing second half, and as I posted in the other thread, I wonder whether two straight second half collapses says something negative about the coaching. But I’ll wait until Rip gets back. Still, even assuming the coaching is good, Rip comes back strong, and CV starts playing better, this roster is going to struggle not infrequently.

Putting it in perspective, though, even if Rip gets traded for a sack of rocks, CV plays even worse, none of the rookies work out, and Q-ster becomes the second coming of M. Curry, the Pistons would still be a better basketball team than the Lions are a football team.

@Kay Wan:
I’d love it if we could pull that off. I might see NO going for that too, and Kwame would be pretty solid in the frontcourt next to David West. Starting Okafor with Villanueva and putting Wallace and Daye on our second string could be pretty nasty…

@Mike Payne: If that were to happen, why not start Okafor w/ Ben? I feel Ben has earned his place, regardless of who comes in. He hustles, and he does all the little things to help slow down the opponent’s offense. Having him and Okafor out there to start, and then bringing Villanueva off the bench to stretch out the d after a steady tone had already been set, could be extremely effective.

“Detroit posted back to back losses to lousy teams”..We all need to face the fact that tne Pistons ARE one of the lousy teams. Looking at this realistically, the Pistons are really not much better if at all better than these other teams they have lozt too. Yes it’s extremely early still, but there is no way anyone could have looked at this roster going into the season and think they were gonna be “good”..We need to figure out what “good” is, before we start calling them that. Most of us knew this wasnt gonna be pretty, so we need to stop acting so suprised. On just the starting 5 alone, we have NO point guard-The one who was supposed to be (Stuckey) is now considered a “Combo-Guard”, 2gaurd Rip Hamilton (injured) is most affective when he has plays set up for him, a relativley non-aggresive small forward (Tay) who continues to show little confedence in his offensive game and looks lost in the shuffle, a PF who is basically a younger version of Sheed (talent wise) who only attempts playing defense and grabbing rebounds when it seems convienient to him, and a undersized, over the hill PF-Center who was brought in to be the 5th big man on the roster and has started every game so far (Ben Wallace), who actually is adaquet on the boards…It’s still early and things could change in different ways, but as of right now…It is what it is.

@j dre:
Because OFFENSE is our frontcourt weakness, not defense. Yeah, CV isn’t a defender and our defense is nil without BW, but if you start CV and Okafor, you have increased offense without introducing a glaring hole in defense. Okafor is a solid defender. He’s no Ben Wallace, but he’s capable.

@MNM:
On just the starting 5 alone, we have NO point guard-The one who was supposed to be (Stuckey) is now considered a "Combo-Guard", 2gaurd Rip Hamilton (injured) is most affective when he has plays set up for him

Our backcourt is just fine. Championship caliber teams do not require a “true” point guard. Whatever you consider Stuckey, he’ll be fine at the point spot. Championships are built primarily at the 2 and the 4/5.

As for Hamilton, your talking point was common last season, in the absence of Billups. It was also wrong. The “big drop-off” everyone was predicting in Rip without his backcourt mate Chauncey Billups never happened. In fact, he asserted himself even more, being one of the top passing 2 guards in the league last year, establishing his own shot and setting up his teammates.

I’m gonna repeat this until I’m blue in the face, until it really sticks in. Our team’s problem is frontcourt scoring. First and foremost.

Our team’s problem is frontcourt scoring.

When CV plays well, we’ll do well. When he plays poorly, we’ll do poorly. It’s sad to admit, but our success is hinged on the hairless shoulders of Charlie Villanueva. If only there were more options in our frontcourt… (I’m looking at YOU, Joe Dumars)

@bmr – the fact toronto is losing has very little to do with bosh being a good or bad player. How many impressive seasons did KG have in minnesota and they were a shitty team. His being traded to boston didn’t change his game, only the supporting cast. The same could be said for Paul Pierce. Good player, shitty team, in comes the trade, championship.

MP: couldn’t agree more with your analysis. I see some huge red flags early: the rookies are getting little burn and Ben W. playing 38 minutes Sat night. I don’t see Ben playing those kind of minutes all season long.

If someone, anyone, can step up and play the 3, Tay will likely be moved at some point for an expiring contract. I wouldn’t mind seeing Rip play more at the 3 with Stuck and Ben G, and, say CV and Ben or Kwame when Tay is sitting. But the idea was to have Daye challenge for the job, and he’s hardly played.

CV missed quite a bit of the preseason and is probably rounding into game shape now. In a few of the highlights he looked a little slow and a little soft (but then again, he always looks a little soft). So, I’m not concerned just yet.

I’m also curious to see how well Jerebko can develop, I like how he plays…that would solve a problem if it turned out he had NBA game.

Again, I think we’ll have a better idea where we’re at, for better or worse after 20 games.

Ohad, Kg’s team won 58 games one year and went to the conference finals. Sam Cassell had a great year in that drive, but he’s average at best without KG. Just look at the assist numbers, KG was averaging like 5-6 a game in his best years, and even 14 rebounds once. I think Bosh’s best year is 41-41 when they had a decent supporting cast, and he looks to have plateaued at 23 10 2. He had a similar big start last year, but finished about the same as all his previous years.

All I’m saying is that he’s good, but you can’t win a title with him as your best player. Look at what Wade did last year with absolutely no help, they still won 43. Or how about LeBron winning back to back 50 games with basically no help beyond big Z. In last year’s title drive, LeBron had a great supporting cast, but beyond Mo Williams (who choked) none of them could really create their own shot. Bosh is basically the best #2 player on the market, but you still have to pair him with a guy like Chris Paul, LeBron or Wade etc to win a championship.

bmr007: I think both of your examples are just a little a bit biased, but I’m a Bosh apologist. :) LeBron might be one of the best players EVER because he’s such a freak, and Wade has lots and lots and lots of help from the refs (the only other year Wade took more free throws than last year was the year they won the championship). When was the last time a big man took his team to the championship? Tim Duncan, who might be one of the best PFs in the history of the game? Hakeem Olajuwon, one of the best centres in the history of the game? I think it’s much easier for guards to dominate than big men. As much as big men are an absolute necessity, they need to be paired with really good guards (of which we have a few).

With such little frontcourt scoring, it is going to come down to making jump shots. Sound familiar? It’s funny with so much turnover in the roster, we basically have the same problem we’ve had for years. Of course, with this roster it will be amplified because the front court defense is not nearly as strong.

There will be nights that the shots are falling, and the Pistons look really good. There will be nights that the shots aren’t falling, and they will lose to the Bucks or Thunder.

I worry things will actually get a little worse, before they get better. The more teams watch the Pistons play, the more they will figure out how the defend them.

CV looks out of out of shape. I’m sure it has something to do with the injury. His first, long-term lucrative contract could have something to do with it too. When he gets in better shape, I feel confident he will look much better.

Some good things:

• Our defense, by and large, is good. We’re holding opponents to the third lowest points per game (87 ppg).
• Teams are only shooting 40% against us
• We’re in the middle of the pack in turnovers/game, and will only improve as the season goes on. We should end up right around where we always are, in the bottom five in the league.
• Ben Wallace isn’t just a sentimental signing
• Allen Iverson is in Memphis

Haha. The Celtics signed Rondo to a 5-year/$55-million dollar extension. Nice to see Danny Ainge is still one of the smartest GMs. It’ll be fun paying Rondo $11 million per in two years when Ray Allen, Paul Pierce and KG are gone/retired.

Co-sign Waulie’s post.

In the fanhouse link, it says that Rudy Gay is still trying to get a 5 year/$50 mill extension. Are you kidding me? Dude scores close to 20 a game, over 6 rebounds, and is a decent 3 point shooter, and he can’t get $10 mill a year? what the hell?

@cody:
it’s probably homophobia.

on the flip side of that rondo deal, its 10 million less than the blazers recently gave lamarcus aldridge, who only averaged 2 more rebounds last year than rondo did, despite being almost a foot taller.

@MP:

LOL, well played sir.

5 years/$55mil for the without-a-doubt best PG defender in the league, best rebounding guard in the league, double-figures assists, shoots 50%+ from the floor, incredibly efficient, will lead the league in steals or be top 3 this season, is beyond clutch, has won at the highest level, and is only 23 years old?

I’d take Rondo over every single point guard in the league. Every one. I don’t care if he doesn’t score— that’s what your wings are for. He does literally every single thing you could possibly ask your PG to do and does it at the highest possible level. He’s beyond durable. His defense is absurd. He might lead the league in assists this season. He’s going to get 2+ steals. He was without a doubt Boston’s best player last year and the sole reason they somehow still won 62 games and won a playoff series. That contract was the smartest move Ainge could have possibly made and almost makes up for the horrific extension he gave to Garnett. And at $11mil, it’s a bargain. He makes less than Rip or Tayshaun. You wouldn’t take Rondo over Rip or Tayshaun? Get outta here. I wish we would’ve done that trade that was proposed this summer.

Celts tried hard to alienate Rondo earlier in the year, I’m a little surprised he’s still there to tell the truth, with what was said about him. But I agree- He’s a superior talent, worth more than 11mil/yr.

I read that basically Ainge and co. wanted to see Rondo take a more prominent leadership role in the locker room and in practice— basically step up all the off-the-court things that a marquee guy is supposed to do. Apparently he did. So he got paid.

6.5pts/12ast/5rbds/2.5stls/57%fg

The assists/steals aren’t going to go anywhere and the pts/rbds are only going to go up. Plus, there are still so many shooters that he has no reason to take anything outside of 15 feet (where he’s much improved anyway). He and Russell Westbrook are my 2 favorite PG’s in the league right now.

Okay, so two things:

First, can someone explain to me why when MFWB is in the game, he’s playing off the ball? He can’t shoot a 3 to save his life, yet that’s exactly what we’re setting him up for.

Second, IMO, our offensive troubles can be boiled down to one important thing: Turnovers. In our last two losses, we’ve had nearly as many team TO’s as team assists. Sure, you can chalk a handful of those up to teammates who don’t know each other that well. But at some point, you have to stop dribbling the ball off your feet, stop letting the shot clock expire, and stop passing the ball to the other team, right?

Third, I lied about two: I’ve seen pick-up games with more ‘team cohesion’ than ours has right now. Am I being overly pessimistic, or is our offense not as good as we were led to believe?

brgulker, this is not much of an excuse, but I think missing Rip in the lineup has a lot to do with how dysfunctional our offense looked the past two games. They looked great in the opener. I’m expecting a bit more of that than the last two games.

1) No Rip
2) CV clearly isn’t in game shape yet.
3) 70% of our team is brand new. There’s no way in hell we’re going to look good at least for a month or so.
4) MFWB isn’t sure of his role.

These things will work themselves out, for better or worse, over the next month. So I’m just trying not to worry too much. If we’re gonna suck, we’ll know it in a month. If we’re going to be pretty good, we’ll know it in a month. If we’re going to be average… you get the idea.

this is a rumor I heard at work today, a guy told me that the reason we kept chucky was so that Bynum and kwame could be packaged for a big from an undisclosed team. Of course the guy who told me couldn’t tell me what sight it was… Sporting News or something like that. I checked it from top to bottom but couldn’t find it. keep your eys open for it.

I still think it’s odd we kept Chucky, but packaging Kwame and Bynum wouldn’t get much back. That is significantly less than the mid-level.

Kwame and Bynum for Boozer!

/NBA Live trades

I think that kinda salary would net someone like Kendrick Perkins, Brendan Haywood, Al Horford, etc. (in the 4-6mil range). I don’t know how that would make sense for any of those teams though. Unless we’re waiting until Dec 15 when FAs signed this summer can be traded, which would make players like Gortat and Varejao available…

Maybe Kwame + Bynum + Rip/Tay?

That would make a lot more sense than just the former two by themselves.

I’ll be ecstatic if JoeD can pull off a Horford for Kwame and Bynum trade. However, I doubt Atlanta is shopping their high-potential filled starting young 5.

@ Joel
While I’ll give the devil his due (Rondo is definitely a top 10 PG) no chance in HELL I’d take him over guys like Chris Paul or Deron Williams. I still don’t buy into the idea that Rondo isn’t a product of his all-star teammates. He might be better than we thought, but he ain’t the top PG in the league.

I’ll be ecstatic if JoeD can pull off a Horford for Kwame and Bynum trade. However, I doubt Atlanta is shopping their high-potential filled starting young 5.

No chance of that happening, ever.

I would take Rondo over Chris Paul if I had to, depending on the roster. Chris Paul is great for fantasy basketball, where his weaknesses aren’t so apparent.

Case in point? Chauncey Billups used his size and strength advantage over Chris Paul in the playoffs last season, dominating him (to the apparent surprise of the media, but to now one who was paying attention to Chauncey). Billups and other big guards can’t get away with that on Rondo. He’s a sneaky, crafty little bastard.

He may not score as much, but there isn’t much else that Paul does better than Rondo. After all, Rajon Rondo is more of a pure point guard than Chris Paul in the first place…

brgulker, I agree but it’s ok to dream!

Still, I wonder what center is equivalent in value to MFWB and Kwame? I haven’t played with the trade machine and don’t intend to. I can see if we throw Tay in the mix, but then, that opens up the doors up a bit in options.

please?

@Rami, everybody
Correct me if I am wrong but whatever we take back can be up to 125% of what we let go. so that would put us at the 10-11 mill. mark. that makes a lot of sense for a team like Utah.

Rami, it’s simple.

The only team who would be interested in Kwame + Bynum is a team looking to shed one of their current MLE (ish) players in favor of cap space for this upcoming summer.

Personally, Kwame’s contract is more valuable as the 2nd piece of a trade combined with Rip/Tay as an expiring deal.

Trading MFWB at this point would be stupid. We pay him next to nothing.

I didn’t mean that to sound as curt as it did … :)

blow me, trade machine, that link ID doesn’t point to the trade it was made for. wtf.

kwame, maxiell, bynum for okafor. trade was successful. pistons gain 9 wins according to hollinger. NO cuts their salary down $5 million after brown/bynum expire. Hell, they could buy out kwame, owe a hell of a lot less in taxes, then we could offer Kwame the vet min to come back a la mcdyess.

@gulks:
Trading MFWB at this point would be stupid. We pay him next to nothing.

We’d be trading his restriction rights, and for a player of his quality that makes him a trade value. Him + Kwame is worth a lot more than another team’s MLE player, they’re getting a starting-capable PG on the cheap, plus his restriction rights so they have him on the long term if they want. Kwame’s $4 million is a huge bonus to the great player they’d get out of MFWB.

mike payne, as to the front court scoring. what about giving wilcox more time? i confess to being a little exhausted by maxiel’s almost but not quite offense. i’ll check the stats.

Yeah, you’re right MP.

I wasn’t clear at all. We don’t pay him anything now (value for the money), and trading his restriction rights away would be stupid — because we can only take back 125% (correct?) of his salary. Who would we want who could help us in the way that MFWB does for 125% of his salary?

http://pistonsnationblog.com/2009/11/01/the-best-jason-maxiell-story-you-probably-havent-heard/

Don’t know if this was pointed out, but I saw this on BDL and thought I’d share. Pretty cool. Also, soap:

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/Video-Pistons-least-favorite-candy?urn=nba,199625

so kwame and maxiel playing a lot and not scoring. wilcox not playing at all.

@MP

I’m disappointed; I was expecting a Przybila trade.

what do kwame and maxiel do when they are not scoring? are they really good defenders? everybody seems to think so. it just doesn’t seem that way to me. maxiel has sensational blocks from time to time and kwame muscles against someone here and there but …?

How the hell is Rondo not a top 5 pg in the league? Everyone is so quick to name CP3 the best but have you watched him play defense? Yes, he has 400 steals a game but his 1 on 1 game is a joke. Anytime Rondo wanted to take him to the cup, he did with ease..

Rondo might be better then MJ honestly. C’s were so smart signing him now… the deal wreaks of awesomness.

whenever i see opponent bigs scoring it seems like such a forbidden fruit. there was ben at the free throw line. there was webber hobbling to the hoop. there is maxiel at the free throw line. even sheed had some real clumsy moments last couple of years around the basket. kwame is another clunker with his small hands. and now we have kwame and maxiel joined by the returning free throw king ben wallace.
  so ben is playing great defense right now but i vote for wilcox to get time and let cv play out of his slump.

@Everyone

Atlanta is not trading a young C who opened the season with, what, 25/17 for ANYONE on our roster. BG,Tay,Rip… nobody. Even if there was no cap.

A million infants throughout the world smiled, nay, laughed at this moment:
http://pistonsnationblog.com/images/maxiell-wedding2.jpg

If we are going to trade Bynum + someone for a big, it needs to include one of our bad contracts. The price of getting MFWB is that they have to take one of our bad contracts. So either Maxy or Rip. I would actually not be too upset with that, as long as it netted us someone good. Bynum is great, but he is not going to start for us and with BG, Stuck, and possibly Rip all here, I would love to use him to bring in a young center.

good news via nba.com, No more Bill Walton as a game analyst.

Man, playing with trade machine, I realize how few knicky knack contracts the Pistons have to make deals work.

That being said:
Will B. + J. Max + Daye for David West.

They get salary cap relief and some young, talented players. Anyone have any ideas about how CV31 and West would play together? We’d definitely be able to start scorers at every position if he can play center.

This:

Stuck
Rip
Tay
West
Kwame

would also be an option.

P.S. This is probably not going to happen.

The Warriors “start scorers at every position” too.

Second string:

Chucky
BG
Jerebko
CV31
Big Ben

I would really regret losing Daye though. He sure looks good so far. (Preseason, of course.)

Chris Paul and Rajon Rondo, through their first three seasons. Courtesy of Basketball Reference.

Years: 2006-2008 (Paul), 2007-2009 (Rondo)
TS%: .555 (Paul), .516 (Rondo)
eFG%: .487 (Paul), .486 (Rondo)
ORB%: 2.5 (Paul), 4.6 (Rondo)
DRB%: 12.1 (Paul), 13.4 (Rondo)
TRB%: 7.2 (Paul), 9.1 (Rondo)
AST%: 44.3 (Paul), 33.2 (Rondo)
STL%: 3.3 (Paul), 3.2 (Rondo)
BLK%: 0.1 (Paul), 0.4 (Rondo)
TOV%: 13.0 (Paul), 18.3 (Rondo)
USG%: 23.7 (Paul), 18.4 (Rondo)
ORtg: 119 (Paul), 107 (Rondo)
DRtg: 104 (Paul), 101 (Rondo)
OWin Shares: 26.2 (Paul), 7.0 (Rondo)
DWin Shares: 10.7 (Paul), 12.5 (Rondo)
Win Shares: 37.0 (Paul), 19.5 (Rondo)
PER: 24.3 (Paul), 16.2 (Rondo)

And for +/- fans, here’s what I dug up from BasketballValue.com.
Weighted +/- 2008-2009: 19.65 (Paul), 5.81 (Rondo)
Weighted +/- 2007-2008: 8.99 (Paul), 6.32 (Rondo)

Rondo has a significant edge on Paul for rebounding. Their eFG% is the same, as Rondo shoots a better 2P% but Paul makes up for it in 3P%. Paul gets to the line more, so that makes his TS% better. Also, Paul gets his more efficient numbers despite a higher usage rate. Paul is much better at avoiding turnovers and creating assists. Rondo is a great defender, but the numbers don’t show his contributions defensively overcoming the deficit between the two players offensively. Finally, Rajon doesn’t have a crappy nickname though.

Drew I’d much rather have Okafor than West. That would solidify the defense in the coming years (its not like Big Ben can play forever) and I think West is highly overrated because he plays with Chris Paul. He is a below average rebounder (the fact that he didn’t average even 10 per 40 without a legit center last year screams soft) and doesn’t score with very high efficiency for a big man that doesn’t make 3s.

Perhaps he’s a more consistent scorer, but that doesn’t make him a better overall player than Okafor.

Wait, people think Rondo is better than Paul? What?

I’d put the following PGs still better than Rondo:

Paul
Nash
Williams
Parker
Billups

Paul’s problem is that his team is absolute ****. People talk about James carrying a team, but Paul has done just as much carrying with the craptacular lineups he’s had.

@birdman – Comparing offensive numbers between the two isn’t totally fair. Rondo plays on an All-Star team where he is the 4th option out of 5. CP is option 1/2/3. Even so… Rajon was what… second in the nba in terms of shooting % last year for a pg? He might not be better then Paul yet but he certainly is better then two of the senior citizens T-Lynch named above.

And im pretty sure CP has not done “just as much” as Lebron has with Cleveland.

At this point, really the only move I’d care to see happen would be moving Maxiell. I love the dude, but it’s clear 8 rebounds per 36 is just what he’s going to give us – that’s fine if you’re Villa, but we need more than that from Max. Maybe we could reconnect with our Bobcats friends where he’d actually be a great fit and go Max for Diop (and his 10 rebounds and 3 blocks per 36) and a pick?

These trade ideas keep getting worser and worser. I’m with Joel:

These things will work themselves out, for better or worse, over the next month. So I’m just trying not to worry too much.

Nash may be a defensive sieve, but credit where credit is due. The guy’s an absolutely fantastic PG. And Billups would be just as good if not better with Boston than Rondo. Just because a player is older doesn’t mean he is suddenly worthless. Hell, through three games Nash is averaging 18-14.

Billups is more efficient than Rondo. He’s got a better TS% as does Nash. Rondo’s jumper is bad. Like, Amir Johnson bad. An eFG% of .375? Rodney Stuckey’s broken jumper was more consistent. The reason he’s the 4th option on the team is because he’s pretty mediocre offensively.

When trying to determine how efficient a player is, don’t look at just the FG% or even eFG%. TS% gives you the best idea of how efficient a player truly is.

Rondo could never lead a team.

And, ESPN is saying Rip is officially out for the Magic game? That sucks. I’m going with a 129-86 loss. Howard might have 25 boards against this team. It’s going to be funny how many slam dunk shots he has… sad clown funny.

I suspect that for some odd reason, we will continue to have success against Orlando and somehow win the game for no apparent reason other than we’re in Orlando’s head.

We are to Orlando was Utah is to us.

@TDP

Who lead the Celtics over the Bulls last year? Certainly not Paul Pierce or Ray Allen.

I agree that Okafor is the better player, but I feel pretty secure in our center being held down with Kwame. Of course, David West duplicates CV a bit. That’s why I was curious if people thought they could play together.

Terrence- I would step in front of a bus if it meant we still dominate the Magic.

Who lead the Celtics over the Bulls last year? Certainly not Paul Pierce or Ray Allen.

Yeah! Second round baby!

so in order for a player to “lead a team” they must win the title? is that the criteria now?

@Terrence Lynch:
I suspect that for some odd reason, we will continue to have success against Orlando and somehow win the game for no apparent reason other than we’re in Orlando’s head.

While I’d love to agree with you, it doesn’t make any sense to. The “we” to whom you’re referring was Rasheed Wallace, Antonio McDyess and Chauncey Billups. Chauncey killed Jameer, Sheed and Dyess shut down Howard. For Orlando, those were the most difficult matchups to overcome. Now, they’re gone.

That jersey isn’t in Dwight Howard’s head anymore, now that Rasheed isn’t wearing it.

Rondo takes a backseat to KG, Pierce, and Allen. Rondo takes it in the backseat, too! Ba-zing!!!

Speaking of batty boys… Check out what Manu did.

Anyone else think Budinger would be nice to have right about now?

And by Budinger you mean Blair? Totally!

@BigBabyDavis

Rondo did play well against the Bulls. Perhaps that has something to do with the fact that he was guarded by Derrick Rose, who is one of the worst defenders at point guard in the league right now. Obviously Rondo didn’t do as well for the rest of the playoffs.

You said “Comparing offensive numbers between the two isn’t totally fair. Rondo plays on an All-Star team where he is the 4th option out of 5. CP is option 1/2/3.” I agree. It is a lot easier to play when you’re the fourth option. Defenses focus on stopping Paul so much more than they do Rondo, yet Paul is still more efficient. As usage increases, generally shooting efficiency decreases, so if Rondo had a role like Paul’s, his numbers would suffer even more in comparison.

Chris Paul is the best point guard in the league.

I already gave my argument for it, but I still take Rondo over CP3 all day every day. I’d take him over literally every single point guard in the league. 2nd Team All NBA Defense/50+% shooting/10+ assists/5+ rebounds/2+ steals/mean streak/steps WAY up when it matters— all of these are infinitely more important to me than my PG scoring 22ppg. Whoever said “Second Round baby!” concerning Rondo’s effort last postseason— did you watch CP3? 59 point loss baby! Anally raped in the first round baby! Has yet to truly do anything of worth in the playoffs baby! At least Lebron has “carried” his team to the Finals (where they received a a ceremonial colonoscopy by the Spurs). Where’s CP3’s ceremonial colonoscopy?

Chris Paul = overrated. Give me Rondo all day. And give me D-Rose or Tony Parker right after him. I’d take D-Will over CP3 too— head-to-head domination since their first year in the league.

Rondo has the edge over Paul in rebounding and defense. Paul is better at everything else. Rondo having more playoff success than Paul might have something to do with their respective supporting casts.

Paul is also better at everything than Rose is, particularly cutting apples.

Don’t know if it’s obvious, but I’m not the biggest CP3 fan. He’s like a pre-Super Bowl Peyton Manning for me. Lot’s of meaningless fluff stats, no real post-season successes, seems to quit on his team/coach in big games when things aren’t going his way, etc. Statistically, yeah, you can say he’s “better” than any point guard arguably who’s ever played the game of basketball, at least if you look at his last three seasons. Stats for the ages.

But until he wins a playoff game by punching a 7ft big game hunter in the face or averages a triple double for two full (7-game no less) playoff series without the “best” player on his team who supposedly is the reason for his success, I’ll always take Rondo over CP3. Being a Pistons basketball fan, you’ve got to at least respect the logic.

I can respect the logic, but I can’t agree with Paul’s stats being fluff stats. Keep in mind that being the best player on your team also means defenses load up on you and target stopping you first and foremost. The fact that he can averaged a double-double while shooting at or about 50% (the first four games? TS% of .762) when defenses are intentionally designed to stop you first is the most God damn impressive thing in the NBA not named LeBron James. Seriously, the guy is averaging 27.9 points and 8.6 assists through 4 games on 65.6% shooting. You can’t blame him for the losses or call those fluff stats. That’s just how bad his supporting cast sucks. He’s playing Godly and the team is still losing, I think the problem is the team.

Also, even with KG out, Rondo still had Paul Pierce and Ray Allen. I wouldn’t say he was without weapons during their playoff run last year.

Never said he was without weapons— just the biggest one— but he was without a doubt the leader and best player on that squad from the minute KG went down late in the season. Then he puts up 17/10/10/3 for 14 playoff games— Kidd would cream in his pants for a line like that. And that’s before even talking about his defense. His on-court/off-court point differential during the playoffs last year? 20 points. His team was 20 points better when he was on the floor.

And “fluff stats” to me means exactly what you just said. His team sucks. So he does everything. Zach Randolph has put up 20/10/2 most of his career with pretty low turnovers and around 48% shooting— his teams all suck, so he does more. Kevin Martin’s another great example— ridiculously efficient offensively, gets to the line a ton, but does it because nobody else can. Now clearly CP3 is lightyears beyond these two guys, but his numbers are still, to me, fluff because if he doesn’t do it, who will? Look at Zeke’s first couple years in the league. There’s a reason that he averaged 22/14/5/2.5— the Pistons sucked, so he had to. Iverson is another example I won’t even get into.

When nobody else can score, somebody has to. I’ll give CP3 that. But in every single other facet of the game, Rondo takes the cake for me.

Regarding the “fluff stats,” let’s be clear. Being the best player on a bad team means you get more shots. Someone has to take them. But getting those opportunities doesn’t determine whether they go in. In fact, getting more opportunities makes it harder to make a higher percentage. There is a negative correlation between usage and scoring efficiency.

I don’t understand “pre-Super Bowl Peyton Manning.” Did winning a Super Bowl make him a better quarterback? I don’t think so. He was the same player he always was, the best quarterback in the NFL.