Very happy with the performance of the starting lineup. Villanueva’s offensive involvement is key in its effectiveness. These last couple of games the offense has looked excellent when he is out there on the floor.

Stuckey had,very quietly, a nice game. He looked like a PG.

I didn’t watch the game, but I did see the MFWB highlights at . Whee!

missed the game but happy that the boys win…

Bynum here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7rL7ONw6a4

@MP
If you watched CV like I did Milwaukee, he was very inconsistent. He’d put together nights like tonight, then follow it up with a 4-17 shooting night, with no real excuse (no injuries, no lack of minutes, just laying a stinker). The guy is inconsistent, a major reason why the Bucks didn’t even offer him a qualifying offer.

The biggest thing with Villanueva is consistency. I agree that getting in shape and getting healthy has made him produce better, but don’t go thinking this is every night Charlie. At least, not until he proves he can do it on a somewhat consistent basis.

16 points, 5 rebounds, 7 assists and 2 turnovers! Larry Brown wishes Stuckey was his starting point guard.

@Terrence Lynch:
Dude, don’t double post. It forces me to double post, and is redundant to the community.

Like I said:

@Terrence:
Your concerns are not new to me at all. Take a good look at that comment.

But since then, Dude has been nothing BUT consistent. Single digit games were totally rare from January on last season. He put up stellar averages and had very few poor games, and the difference between that stretch and any other in Charlie’s career is pretty apparent:

He was given consistent minutes. Something he’s never had in his career, and something he is guaranteed in Detroit.

The prime ingredient in consistent play is consistent minutes, something Charlie hasn’t had since January of last season.

Watching the replay. MOTHER FUCKING WILL BYNUM. Good lord.

@MP
Wait, are you sure Villanueva isn’t getting inconsistent minutes because of his inconsistent play? Of the 78 games played, 33 of them he shot 40% or lower, which is pretty bad for a PF. He can get double-digit points, but not terrible efficiently at time. Saying he was consistent post January is an outright lie. He only shot 50% or better in 5 of his last 20 games. Compared to 16 of 29 in the previous two months. His FG% dropped quite a bit post All-Star break (46.1% to 42.7%) as did his FT% (86.8% to 77.8%) and 3PT% (37.3% to 31.0%).

Don’t get me wrong, I’m a huuuuuuuuuuge CV fan, but consistent he ain’t.

I love John Hollinger, but his preseason outlook for Jonas Jerebko is too amusing now:

2009-10 outlook: Surprisingly, the Swedish rookie signed with the Pistons instead of staying in Europe. As one of four long, wiry small forwards on the roster, he provides little that will be of use to the squad this season. Unlike most Euros, he’s an athletic slasher with a shaky jump shot, and his résumé from last year (nine points a game for a low-level Italian team) suggests he’s a project. Jerebko will likely spend a big chunk of this season in the D-League gaining experience with the American game, with the hope that he can provide dividends a year or two down the road.

What he meant to say was: “Jonas Jerebko is a viable starting SF for a .500 team.”

And speaking of Hollinger, Ben Gordon is currently #15 in PER…if he can sustain his >60% TSpct, he’ll be a bargain at $11M in a contract that runs through his prime. The primary thing driving that increase is that he’s doubled his FTAs vs. his career average. Here’s hoping he stays aggressive, b/c 8 trips to the line a game w/ a near 90% ft rate is extremely valuable. Also impressed with his defensive effort at this point in the season.

Ben Wallace is clearly the biggest pleasant surprise of the season, but Ben Gordon is not far behind. Makes the Rip contract hurt that much more. Also, with all these players seemingly overachieving, I’d almost think our coach was…gasp…competent?

Kuester struck down Brown tonight.

The student has become the master.

night o’ magic

@Terrence Lynch:
Of the 78 games played, 33 of them he shot 40% or lower, which is pretty bad for a PF.

Correction. Shooting < 40% in 33 games is pretty bad standard for a stretch four. We won a championship with precisely that kid of performance out of our starting PF.

Saying he was consistent post January is an outright lie. He only shot 50% or better in 5 of his last 20 games.

Arguing with you is kind of like whack-a-mole, when one inaccurate statement is knocked down, it is only changed to pop up elsewhere. What the hell does consistency have to do with how many 50%+ games a player has?

Here’s a good formula for consistency. Take a player’s seasonal average. Then look at the average deviation from that seasonal number. The greater the deviation, the less consistent that player— on both ends. If you don’t have time to do the math, just take a quick look at a game log.

With that in mind, here’s a good mark for inconsistency:
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3006/gamelog;_ylt=Ai.xcVnvXgKIq8pxQ53IXfYNPKB4?year=2008

Now look at Villanueva. In February, March and April last year, he had ONLY THREE games below double figures:
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3933/gamelog;_ylt=Ai.xcVnvXgKIq8pxQ53IXfYePaB4?year=2008

Beyond scoring, his rebounding is pretty damn regular too.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m a huuuuuuuuuuge CV fan, but consistent he ain’t.

He’s a lot more consistent than your talking points, which seem to be introduced poorly then changed when questioned. I fail to see how a 45% shooter (standard for a stretch PF) is anything BUT consistent when that player logged 2095 minutes last season. If you can show me an objective measurement that suggests otherwise, I’ll show you the formula for cold fusion.

MP: Great recap. The second half was some of the best Pistons basketball I’ve seen in a very long time. The mindset of sharing the ball offensively, and not getting bogged down in halfcourt, 1v1, ISO dribble drives was perfect, and pretty to watch once we got rolling.

One very minor nitpick: If CV is exhibit A in the “effort > skill” on defense argument, then I’m making Big Ben exhibit B on behalf of the “skill” side. I could not be more impressed with Ben, over the last few years I’d completely forgot what a brilliant player he is.

@Gabe:
Totally agreed. Effort is what makes boys into men, but skill is what makes men into legends. Ben Wallace is clearly one of the latter.

@MP
I didn’t change my talking points, nor did you disprove anything I really said.

We won a championship because our stretch four was also a tremendous defender. You could live with his rather inconsistent offensive play because he was absolutely spectacular on the other end. Villanueva doesn’t have that crutch to hold him up.

As for comparison to other stretch big men, he’s still pretty low. Guys like Lewis, Okur, Bargnani all have significantly higher TS% last season than CV. I mean, .529 even for a stretch four is pretty low. He should at least be in the .550 range. Comparing him to low post big men just makes him look worse.

Also, the Rasheed Wallace comparisons are kind of pointless. You’re picking probably the most inconsistent player in the league and comparing him to Villanueva. It’s like saying a roadkill sandwich is appetizing because you’re comparing it to a turd sandwich.

And I think you harp to much on the points. Scoring points is one thing, but if you’re not doing it efficiently enough then it’s pointless. Even by modified standards. No one is going to praise Stuckey’s 16 PPG if he’s shooting 35%. I mean, if you’re just going to focus on how many points he scores and not how he does it, there’s a certain Memphis Grizzly that scores a lot of points.

….

I’m of course talking about Zach Randolph.

You know what I like about you, MP. You’re civil, but not above making a couple jokes here or there. It’s all in good fun, so I hope even though we don’t agree at least we know we’re both rooting for Villanueva to succeed and reach that peak we know he can. I’ve kind of become frustrated with other boards and forums, but this one seems to be pretty fun. Less rules, a bit more sarcasm and some in-jokes I still trying to pick up on. But fun nonetheless.

Actually, maybe my issue is with stretch fours in general. That the whole concept is inconsistent as it’s big men trying to play like guards, and relying too heavily on their jumpers rather than post moves and shots with 5 feet. Your odds drop further away from the basket. And when the jumpers not falling, they’re going to have off nights.

@Terrence Lynch:
Much love on that last paragraph, a fist bump from me to you man. I’m with you entirely.

Guys like Lewis, Okur, Bargnani all have significantly higher TS% last season than CV.

Thing is, CV is the only one that has any business playing the 4 out of any of those. Sure, they all play LIKE fours, but none of them truly are fours— much to their team’s detriment. Dirk, Murphy and Jamison (even Bosh) are the closest comparisons to CV’s skill set, and they play the position they were intended (at a cost much higher than CV, with a per game rate that isn’t dissimilar).

Also, the Rasheed Wallace comparisons are kind of pointless. You’re picking probably the most inconsistent player in the league and comparing him to Villanueva. It’s like saying a roadkill sandwich is appetizing because you’re comparing it to a turd sandwich.

Can you possibly conjure ANY reason why I may have chosen Rasheed Wallace as a comparison? What position on what team did he play last season?

We won a championship because our stretch four was also a tremendous defender.

Wait a minute, I thought the comparisons to Rasheed were pointless?

And I think you harp to much on the points.

Dude, our entire season is dependent upon Charlie Villanueva’s scoring. I can’t harp on points ENOUGH. We have ONE frontcourt scorer on our entire roster, no one else can be depended upon to put up double digits, let alone 30. So my focus on his scoring is paramount.

Some thoughts:

- Not sure what was more impressive: Mother Scratchin’ Will Bynum’s dunk or CV’s behind-the-back dribble running floater.

- I like you Jerebko, but no more running hook shots, okay?

- BG always has this look on his face like he’s going to kill somebody.

@MP
I disagree with you on some points, but I’m feeling too good right now really argue anymore about it.

I believe that Villanueva, honest-to-goodness, can be one of the top PFs in the league. He’s got the offensive talent, he has the drive, he has the Twitter (well, that might not be his benefits). I think he’ll go down as Dumars best signing since Chauncey Billups.

Also, I should probably enjoy the feeling because the rest of the month? Pretty rough looking. If we’re still at .500 it’d be a smashing success.

@MP: don’t you think you were a little hard on Daye and Summers? Ir could have well been a case of the other subs not really knowing their position on the floor, or not playing together well. If there’s gotta be bad, well, so be it…but how much bad can you find when 8-12 on the roster plays the last 6-7 minutes?

I liked this little section from the AP Game recap:

Gordon was wide open once in the third quarter, but chose to pass to Villanueva for an open shot. “That’s just playing the game the right way,” said Gordon, who signed a $55 million, five-year contract. “Sometimes, you have to give up a good shot to get a great shot. Charlie had it going.”

Good game, good recap. Not to dwell on the “bad,” but although it was implied in the recap, Chris Wilcox looked almost comically terrible when he was in. Yes, it was garbage time, but yeesh.

Also, were ALL of Daye’s turnovers traveling? I swear I counted 3-4 traveling violations against him. Did he play in a college league with somewhat different rules? At least the Wrong DeJuan got his first hoop.

Finally, I’ll repeat this from my post in the game thread. I just loved it when, in a half-time segment on Jerebko, Eli Z. referred to him as “the Tiger Woods of Swedish basketball.”

That’s two 20+ point wins so far this year even though we haven’t had Rip and Tay for the majority of the season. Last year we only had one 20+ point win. We have a real tough stretch coming up, but if we can make it through okay we’ll be set up well for the rest of the season with Rip and hopefully Tay coming back.

Good recap and it appears a great game. Judging by the scoring by quarter, somewhere in the 2nd and into the 3rd we destroyed them. I think the idea of having 4 guards worried us a bit. But because those 4 guards, regardless of classification, can be scoring guards on any given nite, if we can get at least two of them going per game, we’re ahead.

I agree Gabe & MP, effort is what will produce good defense on any given nite. You can overcome skill with more effort than vice-versa.

MFWB !! Dude will get the biggest raise next year, regardless of cap money. He’s the new Ramon Sessions.

In other news Rasheed is shooting a rediculous 10.5 three pointers per 36 minutes of play at a 33% clip.

Daye and Summers were playing the SG and SF positions at the end of the game. Not sure which was playing which, but neither of them struck me as playing badly.

@V:
It was very hard to find anything bad about this game at all. But I stand by that point about Daye and Summers. I’m not suggesting last night’s game was a trend or something to be expected out of either player in the future. While it is unfortunate that this was Summers’ first showing, Daye at least can look at the game as an off night. They had a bad game, I don’t think there’s any way to deny that.

Daye had like three bad travels I think, but he’ll learn. A lot of their minutes came in garbage time which always gets a bit sloppy anyway.

@ QD

How dare you say Summers didn’t play bad. Don’t you know we could’ve drafted Blair instead and been in line to compete for a championship?

/every other irrational poster’s comments about Blair’d

@ MP

I don’t see how Jerebko is the “perennial exception” to the “the bad” list containing the rooks. He committed 2 very early fouls and was limited in his minutes.

It’s hard for Summers to put a layer of dust on his NBA ready image when, umm, this is his first time seeing the court. That’s the same sort of jumping to conclusions that we all (yes, we all) did when Amir Johnson went for 20 and 10 against Al Jefferson and the Celtics oh so many years ago

Something passing aggressive.

/boney’d

@Boney:
I don’t see how Jerebko is the "perennial exception" to the "the bad" list containing the rooks. He committed 2 very early fouls and was limited in his minutes.

It’s really, really simple. Summers and Daye had a bad game. As per usual, Jonas played fine. So I said the rookies looked bad, and called Jonas the exception because he’s “usually good”.

I’m not saying Summers sucks, I’m saying he had a bad game, nothing more, nothing less. I expected more out of him, given the “nba ready” buzz we heard all summer.

@ MP

Jerebko 17 minutes, 4 fouls… very Amir-esque. All 3 rookies were bad with a combined 9 points on 10 FGA.

I understand Jerebko has played solid, but it’s not like he’s a world beater (5ppg 3rpg). I know he does things the statline wont show but, he had a horrible game. Playing “fine” would be 25 minutes and 4 fouls for the rookie, not 2 quick cheapies and then 9 minutes the rest of the game and get 2 more fouls.

All 3 rookies played poorly.

Summers was 1-2 with 2reb, 1ass, 1to and 3fouls in 10minutes. At least one of those fouls was bs and another was to stop a layup (I think).

He didn’t have a bad game. He didn’t have a good one either, but he looked like he just wasn’t trying to do too much. And he hustled on defense.

@Boney:
Maybe you could look for more hairs to split?

All 3 rookies played poorly.

Did you watch the game?

Gerald Wallace was scoreless until Jerebko left the first quarter. In fact, Wallace made only 2 baskets when Jerebko was on the floor throughout the game, his defense was excellent. If you’re only looking at the box score, you’re missing half of Jerebko’s production.

Daye and Summers played poor defense last night. And those fouls? Yeah, Jerebko didn’t commit a single shooting foul, nor a turnover. The other two committed rookie mistake after rookie mistake…

I’m not out to get Daye or Summers, just saying they had a bad game, and Jerebko played well.

Didn’t Chicago fans hate Ben Gordon for some reason? I have fuzzy recollections of them saying he was a ball hog, and couldn’t play D, and was too small, and had poor shot selection and stuff. I think he’s been playing BRILLIANT basketball so far, and I have no doubt he’ll keep it up. He’s an offensive weapon and definitely not a defensive liability. I don’t even remember him being posted up yet by bigger guards?

Apparently, Arnie Kander had Jerebko has one of the highest rated athletes in the draft. He scored close to Grant Hill in his tests.

I know Kander measures different things from most people (flexibility and I’m not sure what else), but while I wouldn’t say Jerebko is unathletic, I don’t really see the athleticism Kander’s talking about.

Garrett, 8 assists and 0 turnovers last night.

I’m with MP on this. Jerebko’s defense on Wallace was a key part of our knockout blow in the 3rd quarter, holding him to just 4 points and 1 reb.

Summers didn’t have a horrible game, he definitely wasn’t in Wontcox territory or anything, but he and Daye were both a little shaky on D and indecisive on O. Either way, it’s really not a big deal.

The Pistons are inching up… 12th best defense and 18th best offense now…

The Right Dejuan – 3/6/1/1, +6 overall, in 20min of work on a championship squad— down its best two players— in a win against a top 4 team in the West.

The Wrong Dejuan – 2/2/1, -11 somehow in 10 garbage minutes against a truly bad team’s third stringers.

There really is no argument. I get the “being a contrarian for the sake of being a contrarian” thing, but the case, as of now, should be closed.

@QD

Any time a white guy gets a two-handed alley-oop slam dunk shot— and throws it down in stride, with ease— I’m impressed with his athleticism.

Summers and Daye made Amir Johnson look like Shane Battier tonight.<<

Johnson is slowly getting his confidence back from the constant put down job by Curry.

Quoting G. Karl

the thing that makes us go is our competitive ego, our competitive energy and you can’t have that energy if you’re thinking you’re not good enough.

http://basketball.realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/62720/20091112/karl_sheds_light_on_iverson_situation/

There is no doubt that Curry’s BS lies to Johnson and his moving him in and out of the lineup on medicore team messed with the young fella’s head.

He is for the moment starting to get some consistent playing time with Raptors with no BS comments from the coach. He played pretty good the last two games, especically last night on defense in the 4th quarter!!

However, with Reggie Evans and his rebounding just a couple of weeks way from returning Johnson’s minutes will probably be cut unless Triano decides to play him some at the $3.

I haven’t seen last night’s game yet, but will pull it from the archives in few hours to enjoy.

The Pistons are looking good early despite the injuries to Prince and Hamilton.

Is Prince’s career done? One never knows with his type of injury.

“There really is no argument. I get the "being a contrarian for the sake of being a contrarian" thing, but the case, as of now, should be closed.”

Agreed. Summers from now on shall be forever known as a bust and the worst draft pick ever made. He has no hopes of ever getting acclimated to the NBA game as evidenced by his 11 minutes of action playing three different positions.

Not the point. Is The Wrong Dejuan ever going to be a passable NBA player? Sure. Probably. But the Right Dejuan is not only already a good NBA player (and elite in one facet of the game) but the one facet of the game where he excels— rebounding— is probably our single most glaring weakness.

@ QD
“Agreed. Summers from now on shall be forever known as a bust and the worst draft pick ever made. He has no hopes of ever getting acclimated to the NBA game as evidenced by his 11 minutes of action playing three different positions.”

You forgot to add…“And we can officially call the Spurs pick of Blair the steal of the draft since he has had no knee problems through the first 10 games.”

I miss Ratko Varda.

Will “Thunder Dunk” Bynum! LOL

David Robinson in first 10 games? Approx 17.5 Reb/48 Min

Dejuan Blair in first 10 games? Approx 17.5 Reb/48 Min

Clearly, Dejuan is destined to be a first ballot hall of famer, get a quadruple double, and be a multiple time NBA champion. Sucks we missed out on him.

It’s SCIENCE, people. Don’t question it.

MP Baiting

In this game:

1) Rodney Stuckey shoots 10 times in 36 minutes and shoots a very high percantage, implying he took high percentage shots. His assist total rises to 7, with only three turnovers.

2) Our team assists also rise to a season high (?) 26, and we turn the ball over only 11 times as a team.

In my view, when Rodney doesn’t force his own offense and plays within himself and under control, we are a good team — because he literally sets the tone for our squad on the offensive side of the ball. As a general rule: when he forces the issue and looks only for his own shot, we are not a good team; when he involves his teammates and is an opportunistic scorer instead of pressing and forcing, we will struggle.

With the firepower he has around him, 12-14 FGAs should be about right, with 6-8 assists per night. If he can convert between 45-50% of his FGAs and average about 6-8 FTAs with that, there’s no reason he couldn’t average 16 (or more?) pts, 8 assists, and 5 boards per night. I think he can do that if he simply doesn’t press the issue and force himself into bad shots.

Obviously, it helps that Ben and Chunky Charlie shot the lights out cought front court scoring cough, but I’m going to stand by my argument that as goes Rodney Stuckey, so go our Pistons (at least until the team overhaul is complete).

Sorry, 2 TO’s for Stuck last night. Typed the wrong thing.

Yo, how is the Byron Scott firing not on Fanhouse’s news feed in the upper right corner? Cavs got 5 different stories up there. WTF MFers

As a general rule: when he forces the issue and looks only for his own shot, we are not a good team; when he involves his teammates and is an opportunistic scorer instead of pressing and forcing, we will struggle.

I borked that up. But you know what I mean.

When he forces, we struggle. When he’s opportunistic (involves his teammates, scores off of Rip’s movement, Ben’s shooting, etc.), we’ll be tough.

Oh and MP, great post-game write up. Nicely done!

I’ll sign on with the idea the Jonas played well last night. Gerald Wallace is somehow leading the league in rebounds (something like 13.6 per night), and the dude only had like 6 last night.

I know that’s not all on Jonas as he wasn’t on the floor nearly as much as Wallace, but he did put the clamps on him to start the game. He’s got a nasty streak to him, too. Something that Amir never had (despite Boney’s handbook).

Jonas has a lot of potential and with Ben Wallace around to help mold him, I like the way things are going.

MP is also right about Daye and Summers; they both looked like the didn’t know what sport they were supposed to be playing. Nerves for Summers? Maybe. Off night for Daye? Definitely. I’m not ready to write off either, but Jonas has been our most effective draft pick so far.

Oh, yeah, and cosign the no more crazy running hook shots from the waist for JJ.

Oh, and I totally read over the Unsung Hero title without catching that you were ribbing me. Also, nicely done :)

And maybe we’re having a chicken and egg debate.

I think that when Rodney looks to pass, it gives our other guys the chance to get quality, high percentage shots (which they were making last night).

You think that when our other guys assert themselves offensively, that gives Rodney an outlet to distribute the ball and hence not force the issue on offense.

I doubt we’ll ever come to complete agreement there, but we do agree on this:

If anyone needed an example that Rodney Stuckey can be an effective starting point guard on a winning team, tonight was that example.

I think Rodney has all the tools, and nights like last night demonstrate that the potential can be realized on the court.

I don’t know what went on in practice but the offense looked a million percent better last night than at pretty much any point in the season. Multiple passes, not overloading one side of the floor, nice pick and roll play, some good drive and kicks. It was all working against a very good defensive team. And Charlie put up a clinic against the Bobcats. (I know Greg was soliciting a nickname for him, and I’ll throw VA Clinic into the ring). Stuckey forced nothing and did a great job setting up teammates.

Very impressed with Jonas’ defense and hustle in the paint, either bothering shots or tipping balls to teammates. Daye and Summers played awful, but they still looked great next to Wilcox. He has played just about as bad as anyone drawing an NBA paycheck could possibly play through 10 games of a season.

Can’t wait to see what the Pistons do for an encore.

@brgulker:
but I’m going to stand by my argument that as goes Rodney Stuckey, so go our Pistons

And I’m going to stand by my assertion that Rodney Stuckey can totally suck for a game, and our 4 weapon backcourt can and will still succeed. Since our entire frontcourt offense is based on 1 weapon, when that 1 weapon fails we’ll have a drastically lower chance at success. It’s simple math, man.

So as Charlie Villanueva goes, so goes our Pistons.

Joel said:
“but the one facet of the game where he excels– rebounding– is probably our single most glaring weakness.”

I thought our most glaring weakness now is not distributing the ball. I think our rebounding issue is more perceived but our assist totals seem lower than average. Anyone have the numbers? I’m curious to see what our true weakness is so far.

Just saw the Byron Scott news— man, that was fast.

He went from COY to unemployed in 2 years.

Byron Scott is not the problem in New Orleans … the problem is that they have one incredible player and a bunch of below-average guys around him. It’s not rocket science.

@ MP: I look forward to testing our respective hypotheses through this season. :)

Rami:
Stats stuff:
http://www.nba.com/statistics/sortable_team_statistics/sortable1.html?cnf=1&prd=1
http://www.nba.com/statistics/sortable_team_statistics/sortable2.html?cnf=1&prd=1

We’ve been out-rebounded on the season, but not by a huge amount. It’s definitely a roster weakness, but Big Ben has kept it from becoming a real problem. Our assist rate and our crappy FT shooting are the next two most obvious weaknesses.

My main critique/complaint is still that we are literally the slowest paced offensive team in the entire league. Rip and Tay being hurt isn’t even really a justification for the slow pace, as both of them are strongest in the halfcourt. With our current roster and rotation I can’t shake the feeling that we’ve taken it a little too easy on opposing teams with our slow pace, and are missing out on some easy buckets.

@Rami

That seems to happen a lot, doesn’t it? Flip, Sam Mitchell, Rick Carlisle, Avery Johnson, Mike Brown (Wait… they didn’t? Well, he will be), Doc Rivers, and now Scott (who was also fired by the Nets).

Oh, and Scott absolutely deserved to be fired, if only because he was giving minutes to Bobby Brown. I still can’t wrap my head around that one. Not to mention the fact that Chris Paul obviously hates the guy.

@Rami

See: Mitchell, Sam

My main critique/complaint is still that we are literally the slowest paced offensive team in the entire league. Rip and Tay being hurt isn’t even really a justification for the slow pace, as both of them are strongest in the halfcourt. With our current roster and rotation I can’t shake the feeling that we’ve taken it a little too easy on opposing teams with our slow pace, and are missing out on some easy buckets.

Gabe,

I suspect that our slow pace has something to do with all the injuries. My impression is that with Rip and Tay out, Kuester doesn’t think we have the 1) firepower and 2) depth to play at a fast pace.

Honestly, in our starting five right now, we only have 3 scoring options … and the only one coming off the bench who’s a real scoring threat is MFWB. I think he feels that we need to slow the game down a bit in order to squeeze the most he can out of that set of players.

On top of that, we simply don’t have the bodies right now to run up and down for 48, meaning that we simply don’t have enough bodies to keep the five on the floor fresh for 48 minutes.

I do anticipate a change with we’re healthy, at least as far as pace is concerned.

I’m comfortable with the pace. You’ve got to remember that with the amount of energy our guys are exerting on defense, guys will be killing themselves trying to get on the break after every rebound. Not to mention, half-court wins in the playoffs, and while we’re nowhere near that level yet, I’m sure Joe and the coaching staff are trying to instill in the new group right away what it takes to win in May and June, not just score lots of points in the regular season.

In another thread I ranted about how we no longer have a “system.” Maybe a bit premature. Our “system” is ferocious defense and low turn-over half-court offense. Has been since the late 80’s. Right now we’re indoctrinating the new blood, popping their Dee-Troit cherries if you will.

Re pace, or other offensive issues, let’s look at our current starters (with Rip and Tay out): Stuckey, Little Ben, Big Ben, CV, and Daye. NO TWO of these players played together last year; one is a true rookie (and a second-rounder); Stuckey and CV are not exactly seasoned vets; Gordon was primarily a bench player in his previous career; and two of our current starters were bench players until the regular season had already started.

In short, it’s kind of amazing these guys remember that they are all on the same team. I’m assuming better things will happen when we get at least Rip back, regular rotations, and guys get more familiar with each other.

And of course the injuries also mean we have to go even deeper into our bench for significant minutes. Fortunately, we have MFWB, and the Tiger Woods of Swedish basketball has shown real promise. Still, I’m hoping for better things later.

On another note, I don’t want to get too much into the right-wrong Dejuan debate, but isn’t Illinois Piston fan obviously right? People who were skeptical about Blair were worried that his knees would blow out early in his career. Now, that may turn out to be right or horribly wrong, but I doubt JOD was thinking that Summers had more talent than Blair.

@Toledo Joe

So it was one of those, “Well, I can pick a guy that could contribute right away, on the cheap, but only for a couple years… or I could grab a guy at the same position as all of my other draft picks, bury him on the bench, and probably trade a year down the line as a throw-in for salary cap space to afford a backup big that still won’t be able to bring what the first guy could be bringing for second-round money…” types of things.

Joel: I wish some of our players had your relentlessness from 2005-2008.

Me too. Me too.

I think Dumars goal was versatility, hence why he grabbed a 2/3/4, a 3/4, and a 3/4/5.

We’ve been the slowest team for decades, It’s a staple of Detroit basketball. It has also shut down all of the arguments about the CV & BG signings. they were supposed to come here and we were supposed to be an uptempo squad with little defense.

They’ve come here and brought into the tradition of Detroit Basketball. Rip and Taye coming back aint going to change it. because Taye isn’t aggresive enuff on offense, and Rip isn’t a dribble and shoot type of guy.

Our pace is due to our commitment on defense and the fact that no one outside of our gaurds can/will create their own shot. How often have you seen one of the gaurds race down the court, just to pull the ball back waiting for the bigs to get in rebounding position?

It’s Detroit Basketball…

Not trying to keep this argument going but maybe JOD didn’t draft Blair because he already had Max .If he took Blair ,who is a much better defensive rebounder ,he’d be all but admitting his mistake with Max’s new contract.

@Defor

I certainly hope that’s not the case. You don’t put your own personal pride before the well-being of your employer, especially considering the widespread ramifications of having a less-than-stellar team— loss of interest, loss of revenue, and eventually loss of jobs for good people. Not that one player can make that much of a difference— and I’m clearly over-dramatizing this— but certainly you don’t pass a that type of talent solely to not get a little professional egg on your face. I’m sure Joe saw/sees something in the Wrong Dejuan that caused his decision. But I can’t help but get the feeling he’ll end up being Sleepy Part Deux while Blair turns into a fantastic (albeit short-lived) player.

And let’s not forget, around draft time, the main reasoning everyone was using was that we were going to be this new improved “up-tempo” team and that a half-court rebound monster like Blair didn’t have the type of versatility and ball-handling skills we were going to need as said “up-tempo team.” Well, that turned out to be unequivocally false. We’re not close to being the slowest team— we’re THE slowest team. He would’ve fit in perfect.

Re: the pace we’re playing, I think playing at a slow pace isn’t necessarily a bad strategy. When you’re a below average team, you want to increase variance within the game, you do that by removing possessions from the game thereby increasing the impact of outliers. I don’t know if it’s intentional, but from a game theory perspective it certainly makes sense with our supposed two best players out.

I think in general, defensive-minded teams just play at a slower pace, probably because the factors a few people have already mentioned (fatigue from effort at both ends, etc.). Take a look at all the slowest paced teams according to Hollinger— no surprise, DET, CHA, POR, BOS, SA, OKC, CLE, ORL, and CHI make up the slowest 9 teams. Commonality? All these teams— regardless of how successful or not they’ve been so far— see themselves as defense-first teams and usually put forth maximum effort on that side of the ball. The fastest paced teams? GS, IND, PHX, DEN, and NYK. No real surprise.

I think Joe D’s thought process on right vs. wrong was that Blair presented a duplication in position and play style to someone we already have on roster and just gave a 3 year extension to (Maxiell).

Whether or not Blair ends up playing like it, he is a 6’7" power forward who also has a fair bit of weight on him. Do we really need 2 6’7" power forwards known for their rebounding and tenacity on the defensive end?

Not only that, but Blair will never play any other position besides PF. Same as Maxiell. Sure we see Maxiell in at the 3 every once in a while, but he shouldn’t be.

Summers is a 2nd round pick who could (assuming he were to pan out into a solid player in this league) guard 3s and 4s making him 1) a more versatile commodity for the Pistons and 2) a more tradeable commodity in the future.

Understandably, we drafted 3 players all listed as small forwards, but I see this as Joe D recognizing the writing on the wall that Tayshaun may not be the long-term answer he was hoping for given he hasn’t ever made the next step in his career. He’s been the definition of consistency since year 3 when (and maybe this was just me) there were obvious expectations of him taking the next step offensively. Additionally, if the initial reports about Tay’s back are true that his injury could have dated further back than even the 1st round of the playoffs last year, then drafting multiple small forwards (especially long, thin, strong small forwards to guard the ever growing marquee SFs in this league…Lebron and Pierce come to mind) makes all the more sense.

Either way, coming to a conclusion based on the sample size currently available makes this entire argument pointless.

Oh and I’m surprised Maxiell’s block at the rim didn’t garner much attention. That one was almost as good as his destruction of Tyson Chandler last year (or maybe the year before?

Joel:

Of course I don’t know what JOD was thinking, but I was suggesting it was possible that he (and other GMs who passed on Blair) might have thought his knees were such that he couldn’t even be a big contributor for a couple of years. Again, of course, that prognosis could be wrong (and because deep down I’m mostly a decent human being, I hope it is).

@ James B.

yeah, that was one of the better blocks that we have seen thus far. I think CV deserves a highlight as well. I forgot who it was but he blocked a players shot/pass, then grabbed the ball outta the air and pushed it up the floor. I think it was only recorded as a steal though. It was a very focused play nonetehless.

Very nice form of redemption for a guy who almost got stuck with the name “Chunky Charlie.” Heres to hoping that “Won’tCox” will come around.

Toledo Joe…I would think that the thought process would be the opposite. 2nd round draft picks are often taken on “upside” or “potential.” If you assume that Blair’s knees will eventually give out or cause issues than his potential is only there for the short term.

A team like San Antonio could have lookd at Blair and said, “well he’s got the talent to start playing now, and he fits a need we want to address immediately.” Given they’re hoping to contend for a championship, they may not be as concerned with the long-term viability of Blair’s knees.

James B: You probably nailed it. Everyone else was looking for longevity except San Antonio. Tim Duncan is getting old and creaky, Ginobili gets hurt a lot, and Tony Parker might already be slipping. Adding Richard Jefferson for some firepower and taking Blair to produce now totally makes sense. And if they don’t win, Duncan retired, and Blair’s knees evaporate into a fine powder, they’ll just tank the season again and hope to get the number one pick, just like last time!

Yeah, that’s probably right.

I agree about San Antonio and longevity. I’m pretty sure Joe D’s goal for this year is a team that can be built around. Drafting Blair, only to lose him to an injury, would not be a move that works with that. I am pretty sure most of the players here are here for the long haul and expected to develop together into a team (with the exception of Tay, considering all the SF draft picks).

LeBron is changing his number next season? Number six? Well, that’ll be easy when he switches teams. Douche.

as much as i hate dwayne wade i love his complete posterization of varejao and have watched it on my dvr like 10 times in a row. fuck varejao.

and now varejao is crying about it! ha! perfect!

I finally found the one stat that no one has mentioned yet about the Pistons this year-currently 3d in defensive FG%. Very impressive and surprising so far. Give both Brian Hill and Ben Wallace credit for this.

V defensive FG% was mentioned a long time, I don’t know who first brought it up but I know I did for sure quite a while ago. There was quite a discussion over the importance of defensive FG% vs points given up per 100 possessions.

Whether or not Blair ends up playing like it, he is a 6′7″ power forward who also has a fair bit of weight on him. Do we really need 2 6′7″ power forwards known for their rebounding and tenacity on the defensive end?

As opposed to duplication of position at the SF? Your argument would be a good one if we didn’t draft 3 SF’s in Daye, Jerebko, and Summers, my friend.

Yes, I would absolutely have two undersized PF’s who are beasts on the boards, who will compete with each other in practice for playing time, and cost us a combined 7ish million per season.

Sign me up for that.

OT, but I was just thinking about when Rip comes back from injury. Assuming he comes back at 100 percent, will Q start Rip at SG and bench Gordon or will he go Curry and start Rip at SF?

That will be a tough call, especially since Tay is out and considering how well Gordon has been playing. I think my preference would be to start Rip and bring Gordon off the bench, since they will play together plently regardless. Also, Stuck, Rip, JJ, CV, and Wallace is a rather tall lineup (add 4 inches to Wallace to simulate his impact) that should be able to set the tone defensively and also take advantage of match ups against most teams.

What do you think?

Waulie, I think rips back in the starting lineup at sg the second he comes back from the ankle problem. Although it seems to be working for Portland to start 3 guards, our lack of size up front would make it tough to have 3 guards on the floor to start the game (portland has la and oden). And I think having JJ starting also sets a tone defensively that Kue likes.

I’m definately all for starting Rip at SG. I only wonder because it will definately be tempting to start his best players since Tay is out.

I wouldn’t say L.A. and Oden are much more intimidating than CV and Wallace. Actually, those are very comparable tandems.

Any word on WHEN Rip will be coming back?

Small ball is in our future. The roster imbalance already made that likely, and two things have made it even more certain: (1) Tay is out, and our only other only other SFs are rookies who aren’t as good (yet?) at basketball as our guards; and (2) Gordon’s excellent play should earn him more minutes.

So it will be very tempting to put Rip at SF while Gordon and either Stuckey or MFWB plays point.

I was cursing small ball from the start last year, and I still don’t like it. If forced to choose, I definitely prefer small ball with Rip at SF and two legit big guys at the 4 and 5 to small ball with Rip at the SF and Tayshaun (or other true SF) at the PF.

But again, it’s the roster imbalance that will be driving these decisions, which gets us back to the obvious problem this year. Individual players may do well — CV seems to be finding an impressive groove, both Bens are playing better than expected, and did you SEE those dunks by Bynum? — but the roster as a whole is still not quite right.

Either bring Rip off the bench at SG or start him at the 3. Impeding on Ben Gordon’s dominance would be a big mistake, I think even Rip can understand that.

I am a little torn on this one. However, since Rip will spend a very good chunk of time at SF regardless, I think I am still leaning towards starting Rip at SG. Play 6 minutes or so with that starting line up, then bring in Gordon for JJ and shift Rip to SF.

I think there are two advantages to that. The first is related to JJ and Rip’s defense. Yes, Gordon is better than advertised defensively, but Rip is a better defender at SG than Gordon and JJ is a better defender than Rip at SF. Establish the defense, run half court sets for Rip, and just execute.

The second benefit is having a serious scoring punch of the bench. Bynum can be quite a dynamic bench player, but I like him much better when he is picking his spots and setting up his teamates. Establish the tone then hit em with a three-headed monster.

I’m not convinced bringing Gordon off the bench would hinder him very much, if at all. He is still going to get his minutes, and dude cannot be fazed.

I think Qster will use the injury as an excuse to have Rip coming off the bench for the first couple games he comes back. If it’s a smashing success, he’ll stick with it. If not, I’m pretty sure Barry Gibb is classy and professional enough to understand that coming off the bench isn’t a big deal, especially when he’s going to get 35mpg regardless.

I like the idea of bringing Gordon off the bench and starting Jerebko. Then, switch Jerebko for Gordon and put Rip at the 3. I think, like it has already been said, that it is the best way to set a defensive start and then hit them with some offensive punch.

When everybody is healthy we could be a pretty nice team (middle of the pack). If we had a scoring PF off the bench (curse you Wilcox), Brown’s defensive presence with JJ, Gordon and Bynum could be a nice unit.

brgulker,

I thought I had addressed your point more thoroughly but I hate making long posts on DBB so maybe not.

We’re all basing our interpretation of JOD’s draft on certain assumptions. My assumption is that if JOD knew about Tay’s back trouble, then he would want to overload at the SF so that if Tayshaun goes down, we’d have numerous options to go with to fill in.

Furthermore, everyone’s assumption at the beginning of the season was that the Pistons would be a more uptempo team. Jerebko, Daye, and Summers could all play SF/PF in an uptempo game. I haven’t watched Blair play much, but I can’t imagine he’s an uptempo PF who can run the floor or fill the lane on the fast break.

Main point being though that none of us know what was going through JOD’s head on draft night, nor can we assume that Blair being on the Pistons would have resulted in more wins thus far in the season or even a better team overall.

Players are so often a product of their environment in this league. Blair is playing with one of the greatest PFs to play the game, one of the hardest working and devoted PFs to play the game (McDiggidy), and one of the best coaches of the past 10 years.

Chauncey only became a premiere PG after he Larry Brown taught him the “right way to play”. Dwight Howard has not-so-coincidentally picked up a few post moves in the off-season that remind us all of Ewing…who happens to be an assistant for the Magic…

And perhaps the most telling of all, Andrew Bogut is averaging 4 elbows a game in Milwaukee since Laimbeer came in as an assistant.

I bet Rip starts but gets pulled quickly for BG. They’ll say they want to ease him back into the game and not give him many minutes for a while.

JOD didn’t draft 3 small forwards. He drafted 3 combo forwards.

And more importantly, he drafted 3 guys that can shoot. Looking at the free agent signing, that was clearly the priority.

Also, it’s not unwise to draft multiple players at one position. The majority of draft picks do not pan out, so loading up on draft picks and letting them compete for the spot is probably a great way of ensuring that you meet at least one need.

Portland: Has Batum, Webster and Outlaw competing to be their SF of the future. And had Bayless, Rodriguez, and Koponen competing to be Roy’s backcourt mate (and then bungled it by signing Andre Miller instead of going after Ben Gordon).

Portland would be pretty sick with Gordon.

Yeah, that’s why I don’t buy the Pistons bid against themselves argument. Unless Pritchard is stupid, he would see the benefit of this lineup:

Gordon, Roy, Outlaw/Webster, Aldridge, Oden

Joe would have traded Tay if he thought there was a possibility he would miss half of the season injured. Why not trade him when he still had a reputation for being one of the most durable players in the league? His trade value has plummeted now.

I’m starting to believe Joe never seriously considered trading tay or Rip. sure he has listened to offers. But when was the last time you’ve heard leakage of Joe shopping a player. this young season has proven that we have a decent squad as currently constructed,Sure we need a legit big. but when has Joe addressed that via a trade proposal? He hasn’t! He knows that Rip/Tay are more valuable to us than any player we could logisticly aqquire via trade.

Bottom line is:
No one is letting decent bigs go,
we have a couple of the most decent gaurds in the league
Our most pressing need that could be addressed in the draft, was a backup for Tay. he addressed that with a plan a,b and c.

The history of Joe D. shows us that our needs as currently constructed will be addressed during free agency As he has the habit of hanging on to guys until their value has diminished, and his inability to proactively seek out deals or proposals with other teams.I cant remember the last time that a team has shot down one of his trade proposals. I think that may be because he makes very few of them. think about the deals Joe has made… most of them were reactive the last time he was proactive was when he brought Sheed here, and there was more to that than Joe wanting him.

@Drew

Plummeted is an understatement. Depending on how serious/chronic this injury ends up being, Bill Simmons might starting referring to him as “Tayshaun Prince’s Expiring Contract.” At least next season he’ll be a viable trade asset regardless of whether/how he’s playing.

And Portland would be scary good with Gordon.

I’m with James B. and QD of course…

and besides… “2 guys at $7m per” is ok for this year and next but… when he’s a RFA and we have to match his minimum MLE offer sheet we’re paying $10m of a $50m cap to 2 undersized power forwards.

At least Daye, Jerebko and Summers are more versatile and Daye has seen time at the 4 with Maxey at the 5 so…

Max’s contract is terrible. What exactly did he do as a basketball player to deserve $5mil/yr? Play good defense on Dwight Howard once? As bad as the Nazr signing. Similarly, let’s hope Dumars finds someone to take him off our hands and soon. $5mil/yr— ridiculous. That’s more than what a lot of better big men make.

a player of Max’s abilities (when given consistent PT) deserves the 5 year 20 million or 4 year 20 million he got.. it’s below MLE, and he woulda got the MLE a couple years ago from Cleveland before they picked Hickson

http://vimeo.com/7557897

If only we could hold all sports writers to this level of accountability

observations on rooks and new vets:
Daye- D potential. Long enough to play off his man head up and still contest the shot. He has twice opened my eyes with “dumbfounded how got to that” style blocked shots. I see D potential similar to AK-47. Jerebko- Athletic enough and can really piss people off with his effort and defense. Love it! Good rotation player when he learns to pull and hit the open 3. Yelling “shoot the rock!” when he shot fakes for the drive on a defender that had previously collapsed in the paint doesn’t work. CharlieV- Effortless…in a good way. Dudes game is just as weird as he looks. Offensive rhythm is euro style hard to predict. “did he just flip up a jumper/floater mid step?……splash” Best big man floater I’ve seen. Both BG and CV have top of the league caliber floaters. Ben G- #1 gunna! Dont remember the last time I’ve gotten this much enjoyment out of watching a stone shoot.

observations of defense:
This teams defensive rotations are shit. I put little weight in looking good against a Larry Brown offense. Hoping and betting that it will improve with the familiarity that comes with time.

Portland would be scary good offensively with BG. They were top 3 last year in offensive efficiency and would be even better with BG aboard.

Agreed, dave, love having a gunner on the squad that doesn’t make me cringe.

Just curious, but what exactly are Max’s abilities? He can’t shoot, he can’t rebound for shit, he’s a terrible FT shooter, he doesn’t block many shots (even though they’re spectacular when they happen), no real offensive game to speak of, wildly inconsistent (absolutely due to PT)…

He dunks well and he’s a decent one-on-one post defender. Hardly worth close to the $5mil we’re paying him. Maybe it’s the coaches’ faults for jerking his playing time around, but still, even his per/36 numbers are bad. Won’tcoxian really, much like his game.

He dunks well

Funny enough, he does NOT dunk well— his FG% from dunks is terrible, year after year. So far this year, 80% on dunks? This isn’t an issue of sample size— in his best season, the year before MCIAFI, he was hitting dunks at 82%, which accounted for 21% of his shooting.

The whole point of the dunk is that you’re not supposed to miss, it’s free-er than a free throw. Last year, for example, Dwight Howard didn’t miss a single dunk, 100% shooting on dunks (25% of his attempts). Maxiell, on the other hand, gets too excited and tries to dunk shots he has no business attempting, only to bounce off the rim.

If I had a nickle for every time “Jason Maxiell Missed Dunk” showed up in the play-by-play box score, I’d have, well, more money.

(however, I’m not too quick to pass judgement on maxey for the rest of his game, he was stellar the year before MCIAFI, and I’ll withhold judgement until he’s given consistent PT for a month or two)

“Max’s contract is terrible. What exactly did he do as a basketball player to deserve $5mil/yr?”

He was great the year before Dumars gave him the extension. He was the best big man on the team when the Pistons lost to the Celtics in the ECF. McDyess got outplayed by Perkins and Sheed dropped his shorts for Garnett.

It’s easy to knock his contract now. I don’t think anyone was complaining when he signed it.

QD +1