thank you matt for this prior post follow up. it needs to be lengthy because there is going to be a four guard glut again real soon and real bench sitting will begin for someone. in my opinion stuckey should sit for awhile. he has had much playing time. but the play is erratic to my eyes and now the stats are backing it up. sometimes a player is drafted with all these hopes and plans and it just doesn’t happen. lots of time the epectations have to do with physique. ryan leaf was a big tall guy with a huge arm. but he was not a good quarter back. i am not saying stuckey is ryan leaf but how much does his physique have to do with the expectations? bynum may not really be six feet tall but he has earned the shot. the team should seize the opportunity and invest in his potential. give him the chance to start alongside rip.

I’m already there. In fact, I was there the first time I saw Bynum play in a Pistons uniform. Stuckey is WAY “over-regarded,” if I can coin that term. Bynum, at his wee stature, may never be able to dominate a 48-minute game the way Zeke could, for example. At some point, he will become less of a hidden gem and novelty, and coaches will have to figure out a way to D him up. At that point, he may….MAY get exposed for being 5-6 in a big man’s game. But, until further notice, WB should be our PG, and Stuckey should be trade bait.

Am i the only one to see bynum’s 4:2.4 assist to TO ratio?
I’ll admit he’s scoring like a madman (which makes me think NBA defenses are a lot softer than Euroleague ones and probably partially because the refs are harder in the NBA) but he’s getting a ton of turnovers.
TOs aren’t only the PG’s fault but still it’s something that has followed will all through his career…

If it were ME, I would package Stuckey with Tay or Rip and get a big-man on this roster, to officially finish this off-season re-building plan, and it will make the 2 off-season signings look a lot better.I wouldnt mind seeing Chris Kamen come home and start at center for us, move Bynum to start at point(which you could re-tool his game a little to make him a better point gaurd) and if Rip was traded, start Gordon at the 2. If Tay was to go with Stuckey then I would start Bynum with Rip, move Gordon back to the bench where he started the season and keep starting 1 of the rookies at the 3.

@ohad:
Not a big deal, it’s actually pretty typical of a guard of his style. The drive and dish can get messy, and players like dwyane wade, monta ellis, brandon jennings, tony parker— all share a less than 2:1 a/t ratio. Scoring point players don’t assist as much as other players, and due to their playing styles they turn the ball over more regularly as well.

For a player like that, it’s better to ignore the ratios altogether and look at totals. For MFWB, 2.4 on average ain’t that bad. For example, that’s significantly lower than anyone else listed above.

When Stuckey has played well, our offense has looked a lot better than it has with Bynum. I love Bynum, but he’s all one-on-one, and the offense is reduced to guys standing around watching him. That being said, he’s perfect off the bench and if we’re down by 1 with 3 seconds to go, I’d rather have the ball in his hands than Stuckey.

I think Stuckey just needs to work with a shot doctor. He needs to get some touch on his jumper from deep and from in close. He definitely has the tools, but it just might take a few years for the technique to catch up and align with his natural physical abilities. I hate watching him put his head down and chuck two-handed bricks off the backboard (or get blocked), though.

Let me qualify this by saying that I LOVE Will Bynum’s game. I went to several of his Crane HS games in Chicago during his junior and senior years and saw an incredible talent. I always felt he could perform this way in the NBA.

HOWEVA,

I don’t know if the Pistons should put all their eggs in the MFWB basket. Why? Because 5-10 1/2, super-athletic point guards are supernovas — burn bright and hot, then burn out. Bynum will be 27 in about six weeks (albeit a young 27, NBA-wise). Unless he continues to refine his point skills, and develops a consistent three-range J over the next year or two and becomes a player similar to maybe Jameer Nelson, he will begin a pretty quick decline starting around age 30.

Stuckey still has a bright future with the Pistons. Are people forgetting that he missed the bulk of his rookie season? That he was cast in the middle of turmoil last season? That Kue is his third coach in three seasons? That he’ll be just 24 in April? With his size, athletic ability and still much more to learn, I still see him as the long term option at point guard.

As for Bynum, let him continue to do exactly what he’s doing now — be a change-of-pace electroshock for 25-30 minutes a game.

stuckey is shockingly horrible at finishing off the glass. it also doesn’t help that he gets no love from the refs around the rim, but maybe that is a product of his inability to finish on his own.

@MNM

I wouldn’t mind that trade. Looking back at this past offseason, though, I wish Dumars had done a few things differently. It would put the Pistons in a better place now to trade. I don’t think this is all 20/20 hindsight, either. A lot of people on DBB were unhappy with his moves at the time. Here’s what I wish had happened (as I recall being possible):

Trades: Don’t trade Afflalo for the cap space to sign Wilcox.
Free Agency: Sign Gordon, Villanueva, and Wallace. Don’t sign Wilcox or Atkins. Although a third point guard and fifth big are important, there were other options in the…
Draft: Draft Ty Lawson instead of Daye. (I may be in the minority on this, but I’m a lot more confident that Lawson will make significant contributions than Daye will.) Obviously this would impact the draft board remaining, but I think Blair should still be around for the first second rounder. Draft Blair over Summers. With the 2nd second round pick, draft Jerebko (or Summers if he would still be available). Don’t sell the third; draft Budinger instead.
Other: Don’t cut Washington for no reason.

Below is a comparison between the current roster and my proposed one (all the moves of which would have made sense at the time), organized by what I think are reasonably playable positions.

1: Bynum, Atkins VS. Bynum, Lawson
1/2: Stuckey VS. Stuckey
2: Gordon VS. Gordon, Afflalo
2/3: Hamilton VS. Hamilton, Budinger, Washington
3: Prince, Daye VS. Prince
3/4: Summers, Jerebko VS. Jerebko (or Summers)
4: Villanueva, Maxiell VS. Villanueva, Maxiell, Blair
4/5: Wilcox VS. nobody (still an improvement)
5: Brown, Wallace VS. Brown, Wallace

I think the Pistons could have had a lot more quality depth. They would have Lawson instead of Atkins at point guard; Afflalo, Budinger, and Washington instead of Daye and Summers as wings; and Blair instead of Wilcox. In my opinion, these would be upgrades and also would allow for trading guys like Maxiell, Rip, or whoever without suffering as much of a dropoff. My proposal would have 15 players instead of 14, but Washington could be cut without repercussions (as we learned a few weeks ago).

The biggest knock on Bynum, to me, is his ceiling. As in, he’s about there.

There are three components to Bynum’s ceiling:

1. Size. He’s not getting any bigger and being his size makes everything just a bit harder. Once his quickness goes, he’s gonna be out of business. Which leads me to…

2. Age. He’s about 27. That’s usually the age at which NBA players peak. He might get a BIT better, but you can’t commit to him as the “point guard of the future” when he’s going to be progressively worse each year for the rest of his career.

3. Competition. At this point, Bynum is playing against opposing benches. He is getting minutes at the end of games against starters, and at a bit more mixed in, but the mix is at least 50/50 starters vs. bench players. Take that mix up to more like 80/20 and I think his numbers suffer.

I like MFWB. I just don’t think he’s the future pg of the Detroit Pistons. Stuckey has so much more POTENTIAL. True, he may never reach it. However, the Pistons either need to A) Give him that chance (time)., or B) Come up with another plan for “future point guard”. ‘Cause Bynum ain’t it.

Will Bynum is perfect for his role. Sparkplug off the bench that’s more focused on scoring than getting his teammates involved. Is he capable of finding and hitting his teammates? Absolutely, it’s his strength.

The problem isn’t that Stuckey is getting out-performed by Bynum. It’s that Stuckey doesn’t seem to have a position. He can’t seem to fill the point guard role nor can he shoot well enough to play the off guard. He’s looking less and less like our PG of the future and more like Larry Hughes. And I’d rather not have to make a website called heyrodneystuckeypleasestoptakingsomanybadshots.com

I am mostly disappointed in Stuckey’s ability to finish as well. But I think his overall game has suffered in Rip’s absence. No question, Rip is a leader and glue guy amongst the gaurds.

It’s obvious that Rip made him better. Or at least our gaurd rotation better. with rip out, Stuck & BG are exerting more energy on both ends of the floor, Taking more shots. and defending the other teams best gaurd far to much.

This just shows that he is not ready to lead the team by himself. As far as trades? I wouldn’t give up on him. most of the areas in which he lack can be corrected with time.
At this point it also seems like our 4 gaurd rotation is our most potent option as far as offense.

When Rip played, I just remember on any given night 3 of our gaurds would score 20 points. and for a few games there, Stuck avgd. 13,5,5. When rip gets back I see him getting back to those #s.

Stuckey is realizing the consequences of going to a small program in College. He could have used better coaching. But he still has a set of skills that you just can’t teach: size and a quick first step.

I haven’t watched many games but it appears that his defence has improved considerably from the years before. This is good and shows progress. Now he needs to work on finishing around the rim. The kid is a very good athlete and a desireable asset. He shouldn’t be traded unless he shows an unwillingness to put in the work, which hasn’t been the case.

He was and is an excellent draft choice by Joe Dumars. Plus, no one trades a kid on a rookie contract with this much promise and expects to come out a winner after the dust settles.

This is such a complex question.

On the one hand, Matt’s dead-on here:

At what point do you re-consider which player is the future? I’m not saying we’re there yet, but we have to be getting close.

if for no other reason than we either need to re-sign Bynum or let him go as an RFA. His contract will force Jod to make one of those choices.

I also really agree with Big Z on this point:

The biggest knock on Bynum, to me, is his ceiling. As in, he’s about there.

MFWB is what he is. He might add a lil’ range over the next 2-3 years … but his game is highly, highly dependent on athleticism, and he’s only got a few more years left of that. Once he loses some of his spring, he’s going to become much less effective.

For those reasons (and the others already posted here), MFWB simply isn’t the future. But, he might just be the present

It seems that most of us have been assuming that in order for Stuckey to develop, he has to be the starter, the leader, the guy steering the team. I’m not totally convinced that’s the case.

As Matt and Packey both noted, Stuck’s been labeled as a “combo-guard.” He’s not really a PG, and he’s not really a SG. Guys like Dwayne Wade come to mind with that term, because guys like Wade sometimes play like a PG (facilitator, distributor) and other times play like a SG (attack the rim, pull-up jumpshot, score first).

But the main problem I see with using that term as it applies to Rodney is this: he’s not overly good at anything that one would normally apply to PGs or SGs! His game is entirely one-dimensional. He puts his head down and attacks. He’s not a good distributor, so he’s not a natural PG. He’s not a good shooter from anywhere on the court, so he’s not a natural SG. But what’s bothered me so far this season is that he doesn’t seem to be improving with respect to the qualities of either position! He hasn’t developed his outside shot very much, and he certainly isn’t looking to facilitate offense for his teammates.

Frankly, at this point in his career, he’s a one-dimensional, undersized, attack-the-basket swingman who’s been thrust into the position of PG because of his size.

On the upside, +1 to what everyone’s already said. The only caveat would be about his rebounding. We’ve rightly praised his rebounding this season, but we ought to remember one thing about that — he’s spent a decent chunk of time at SF, and SF’s should rebound the ball … In other words, he’s not getting all his rebounds from the PG position.

Okay, to wrap up this wall of text:

IMO, MWFB is the better PG and better overall player in the present. He has superior PG instincts, shoots a much higher percentage, etc., etc. But he’s just about as good as he’s ever going to be, and he probably has a shorter shelf life than the average NBA PG because his game is so dependent on his athleticism.

That said, Stuck is a conundrum to me. It’s cliche at this point to say it, but he really doesn’t fit any of the typical positions. I think he’s got enormous potential, but to realize it, he needs to take some significant strides over the next 1-2 seasons. He simply must learn to pass the ball once he’s put it on the deck. He simply must develop some type of pull-up shot, whether it be a ten-foot jumper, tear-drop, runnner, something that gives him another option other than bulling into the heart of the defense. He simply must expand his range, and on this point, I’d like to see him work on more a set shot (such as CB did) from outside. If you watch his jumper, you’ll notice that it’s always a jumper. I’d like to see him reduce some of that movement, especially for longer shots.

I don’t think we ought to trade Rodney, nor do I think we should start MFWB. But it’s also not clear to me what we ought to do about their upcoming contracts. I think we have to sign MFWB — he’s a perfect backup PG (but at what cost?). And I don’t know what to do with Rodney once his contract’s up. IMO, he’s not worth a whole lot more than he’s currently being paid, because I don’t think you can invest the team’s financial future in a project. But OTOH, you can’t just let that kind of potential walk out the door.

Okay, stop typing and submit.

Guys,
in all fareness to Stuckey, I don’t think we can really compare his assists/minute to Bynum’s assists/minute

Think about it, the moment Bynum comes into the game, he has hands on the ball for almost the entire shotclock. While he does produce a lot more efficiently than Stuckey does, that stops all ball movement and basically only pads his own stats. I don’t think you can really expect Rodney to get many assists when he doesn’t have his on the ball for half the game.

I also think that Kuester has sat down with him about passing. He’s got 5,6 and 5 assists in the last 3 games of the road trip. Considering that he ran the offense for only about half the time he played in the first two games, those are respectable numbers.

Now on the flipside, I agree that he definitely needs to work on his drive and kick game. Without a doubt, that would remove some of the help defenders and make it easier to score in the lane. The one thing I don’t get is that he has been a horrible finisher lately (especially the west coast trip), as in much worse than even his first year. Perhaps its fatigue? Bynum always seems to get to easy layups regardless of who is playing.

As for his outside shooting, I am split on this. His free throw shooting is clearly improving and he’s starting to knock down a lot of open midrange jumpers. Really its his shot selection that’s hurting him, not shooting ability. He has flashed a few floaters, but he missed all that I’ve seen, and he doesn’t have an unblockable shot. With his size and strength, he should posting people up like Kobe and LeBron. A nice half hook would be undefendable against point guards, only the help defense could do anything about.

My verdict is that we need to continue to start Stuckey. Can you even fathom how bad our ball movement would be with Bynum starting and playing 40 minutes a game? Not to mention pick and roll defense. Give Stuckey a lot of credit in the defense department, he’s not great yet, but he’s definitely improved. The key thing is that Kuester should set a hard cap on his shots per game. Simply don’t let him shoot more than 12 shots a game unless if he’s really got it going. If he gets taken out every time he starts taking bad shots, he’ll learn very quickly to make smarter decisions. Sometimes you have to force people to learn if they haven’t figured it out on their own.

Just wrote an article on this very subject: http://lifeondumars.com/2009/11/25/rodney-stuckey-vs-will-bynum-who-should-start/

@MP – Don’t we have very little assists BECAUSE of that style of play?
It wasn’t a one-on-one mentality that won us a championship. a shoot-first PG is horrible unless he has some great support staff who can get a ton of open looks and a ton of rebounds.
I’m not even going to discuss the whole rebounds situation…

Couple things:

1) Stuckey’s not the only guard putting up some impressive rebounding numbers this season:

MFWB: 4.6 rebs per/36 mins. Stuckey: 4.8 rebs per/36 mins. Not far apart.

Bynum’s rebounding is pretty incredible, he might just be a Chris Paul-esque freak, a small guy who has learned to use his lack of size to his advantage.

2) Stuckey’s usage % is higher than Bynum’s. A lot of people seem to have the impression that when Bynum comes in the game he suddenly has the ball in his hands on every possession. But his usage % of 24.7% is lower than Stuckey’s, CV’s, and Gordon’s. MFWB is definitely a high usage player, but he definitely has not been a ball hog.

3) His TS% is the highest on the team- he’s at .588% right now. That is an incredible number. It’s so good that it makes me think he SHOULD be given a bigger role, if for no other reason than to see if he can maintain his efficiency- if he can, then we have a star-level player on our hands. That seems like something worth finding out.

My problem isn’t with Bynum’s usage, its that he always wastes a lot of time off the clock before dribbling into the lane and dishing it off. He’s just as predictable as Stuckey, its only a matter of time before defenses adjust to that.

If Bynum would pass earlier, then we wouldn’t have all these one on one issues. But I must admit, the efficiency that Will is scoring at right now, is incredible. It seems to take him 5 less shots than anyone else to get the job done. I’m just sick of all the one on one play. Once again, I’d have no problem with Bynum’s scoring if he would just stop wasting so much time on the clock consistently.

yes, Stuck misses a lot of shots in the lane. Just about every one of those shots includes serious contact, which often seems like his primary intent- just drawing that contact, cmon ref! Not a bad strategy at times, but you start depending on refs, which certainly aint gonna be consistent. Often, his misses in the lane create offensive putback opportunities for our Bigs.. Again, not really dependable offensive strategy, but it does create something when we’re totally stagnant. And finally, Stuckey often ends up with the ball as the shot clock is winding down, and is forced to take a tough contested shot. The only guy we really want taking shots like that is Gordon. As for his assist numbers.. who is gonna hit shots off his passes, other than Gordon? Charlie V usually plays a little one-on-one game once he gets the pass (unless he’s hoisting a trey). I think once Rip returns our offensive structure will change dramatically, and at that point we can really evaluate Stuck’s worth.

@ohad:
Don’t we have very little assists BECAUSE of that style of play?

Not from Bynum. Obviously, assists are generated in two parts: the passer and the passee. If we had a cohesive scoring lineup (meaning: improved frontcourt scoring + a shooter at the three, neither of which we presently have), more assists would be available. Example: when Charlie Villanueva shoots well, our team assist total goes up by 5 or 6 on average. Bring Prince back, we’ll add a few more (Rip is a

But as for who creates those assists when they are available— you’re complaining about the wrong guy. Bynum is our best passer (since we already have scoring at that position). He averages 4 assists per game and 10 FG attempts. That 40% rate is in range with people like Chauncey Billups, and very, very high for any player of his ilk that I mentioned in my last comment.

Bynum isn’t the problem with our assist totals. When he shares the court with kwame brown, jason maxiell, jonas jerebko and rodney stuckey, I’d much rather see Bynum playing 1-on-1. For the record, however, I don’t see 1-on-1 when I see Will Bynum play. That’s how he scores, but now exclusively how he plays.

My only qualm with Stuck is that for all the praise about his size and speed he seems to get tired easily (or cramps up) and his game suffers immensly. He needs to work on his endurance. Imagine all those solid first quarter performances he’s had turning into solid 2 or 3 quarter performances consistently. Also, I think Stuckey would become a really dangerous passer if he developed a post up game a la Mr. Big Shot. I have a feeling it’s coming. Though a temporary move to the bench would help now, I think Stuckey will surpass Bynum very soon. Count that baby and a foul!

Matt, this is a really good post. Some nice stats to back up the opinion expressed. Better than the MLive post which is focused more on raw production. Your conclusion is sound. It has to be worth at least considering Bynum as the franchise cornerstone rather than Stuckey.

This is the kind of analysis that keeps me coming back to DBB despite some of the community.

It’s too bad Stuckey couldn’t have had one more year learning from Chauncey……

Mike Payne wishes Chris Wilcox’s $3M went to Ramon Sessions.

(and since that didn’t happen, Mike Payne wishes there was some way DET and MIN could make a trade to equalize our redundancy problems, them not having a 2 guard and we have two all star caliber players. Us not having a scoring 5 and them having to all star caliber players. I know it’ll never happen, but I wish. If minny was dumb enough to give up jefferson and sessions for rip, stuck and maxiell, wow…)

c’mon you ‘low bball iq’ people and my follow (blind) pistons fans

- find stuckeys stats with Bynum on the floor and without
- and what about D without Stuckey
- coach Q have big time problems ‘couse he must find the way to hide Gordon and Bynum in D
- my friend was coach in Tel Aviv at Bynum’s time, he wanted him, he still loves him but… to much great games for Bynum and poor games for club at same time

my first and last post
by dbb

@Billups ZG:
Have you ever watched Will Bynum play basketball? He’s our best defender outside of Ben Wallace. Stifling.

just one name…

Barrea

No fair, you said first & last post. That’s unsportsmanlike internet conduct

@Billups ZG:
Just one phrase: “shitty sample size”