Pistons-Hawks Game Thread

Agreed on Josh Smith’s improvement. In spite of a moderate increase in numbers (moderate, but quite significant), he should be a dark horse for most improved on the season.

Supposedly there are significant lineup changes set for today, anyone care to speculate who the starters are?

Atkins and Max get the start, this should be interesting.

What? Really? Wow.

wth?

They’re starting Chucky Atkins over Will? Somebody please help me understand this?

The Pistons can win this game if they get a great night from Charlie V. and solid play from the rest of the team. If they try and outscore the Hawks backcourt and get few points from the frontcourt again, it’s going to be a blowout win for Atlanta. I don’t care how well Ben Wallace is playing on defense this year, he’s averaging 4 points a game. If Villanueva doesn’t score the ball it’s just too big of a hole to crawl out of and the team as it’s constructed is going to lose lose lose.

I can’t seem to connect to either atdhe or channelsurfing. Any suggestions?

Okay, Kue. Okay.

Wow, quiet here, in spite of an amazing opening from an unlikely lineup.

I like this lineup. Spreads out our lack of talent. It’s nice to see the stones hustling on a sunday afternoon for once.

I’m think everyone is in shock of said lineup amazing start. Personally, I’m trying not to jinx it.

I*

It’ll be nice to see MFWB and CV in together as subs, a nasty scoring punch.

Automotion dancers tickle my twine.

Probably the best quarter of Pistons basketball I’ve seen all season. And Rodney Stuckey, 5-5 and 3 assists? Wow.

Jonas gets NO respect from the officials on either end of the court. It’s a good thing he doesn’t rly need it.

First big off the bench = not Charlie V.

stands up, claps loudly for kuester, stuckey, jerebko, maxiell and kwame

MP +1

That was exciting!

Kwame stone hands with moves. DAAAAAMNNN!

We are outrebounding, outhustling one of the best rebounding, hustling teams in the league. We’re fighting for every free ball like our lives depended on it.

We’ve replaced their regular Sunday afternoon Pistons with Extra-Caffeinated Sunday afternoon Pistons. Let’s see if they notice the difference.

Spare tires: DO NOT WANT.

I can’t see the game but from the rebounding stats it looks like the Hawks are flat and the Pistons are playing with a ton of effort. That’s a nice change from last year’s ‘Case of the Sundays’.

Damn Kwame must have eaten his Wheaties this morning.

Was that intentional from Kwame?

Still cant get a call near the basket. Will Bynum prolly injured now too.

12 pts from the center position, unexpected.

Lanky Tayshaun walkin around in the swayed coat, hilarious lol.

This game is so damned exciting I’m about to grab the lotion and tissues.

Getting the bigs involved, scoring points in the paint, everybody contributing, finally figuring out how to play pick and roll, this is starting to come together.

@MP, I’m sporting a basket-boner as well.

Q gets T’ed up, we’re playing with some passion now.

UGH and now it all starts falling apart.

Loves Q’s reaction to the T “hey, hey… silence”

So far this game seems like exactly what Q ordered. He said in a Freep article a few days ago that he wanted guys to stay in their lane and play their part but not try to do too much. A great team effort so far.

Effort on top of effort. It’s like an effort orgy in here.

Weren’t we supposed to suck at rebounding and defense?

WOW. JUST WOW.

Wow, heck of a play by CV.

Nice to see Rodney flourishing at the SG spot.

BAAASSSKKKEEETTTTGAASSSMMM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Woooooo!

Weren’t we supposed to suck at rebounding and defense?

Pre Ben Wallace resurgence, yes we were.

And what a run to end the quarter … could have done without the Crawford heave, though.

haha Charlie V doing the Ben Gordon thign after he hit the 3, holding it up to his eye. Exciting stuff.

This is what I wanted to see from CV on friday!!!
And am I seeing correctly? Stuckey with 17 points and 6 assists at the half?? I hope he doesnt burn out in the second half like he has recently though.

28-11 rebounding. 14-2 offensive rebounding

Our starting center and point guard are a combined 70 yrs old. That’s crazy.

+1 brgulker. Getting Big Ben back has kept this defense together and has them playing better than they should given the lack of defenders overall.

@brgulker: It’s not just Wallace though. JJ, Daye, Kwame, Stuck, heck even Charlie V is pulling down rebounds in traffic. Big Ben seems to be rubbing off on Jonas he’s tipping the ball out to the guards whenever he can.

Stuckey has actually made a couple of really nice passes in the paint. If it wasn’t for either missed layups or getting fouled on the attempt, by my count he would have had 9 assits.

The ‘Stones are going to win the Championship!!!!! Ok, I didn’t say this year. It seems like if we get effort and a decent game from multiple players, then we’re a good team. During this streak it appeared we continuously had at least 1 guy having the worst game of his life. So far in this first half, no one is having that horrible game. Stuckey looks under control. Since MFWB is hobbling, I wonder if he’ll get a few days off to heal up once everyone else returns.

Just turned on the game. I get why Chucky is starting, but why is Max starting over CV? More bench scoring or something?

@brgulker: It’s not just Wallace though. JJ, Daye, Kwame, Stuck, heck even Charlie V is pulling down rebounds in traffic. Big Ben seems to be rubbing off on Jonas he’s tipping the ball out to the guards whenever he can.

Yessir. I agree with all that.

Hawks must have overdosed on turkey cause they’re getting out-hustled by our team of misfits.

@cody:
I think for two reasons: to matchup against Atlanta’s frontcourt— max is on horford, wallace is on smith. Secondly, to have a big scoring punch off the bench in our frontcourt. I like that move quite a bit.

To start the game, the goal seemed to be have max and ben clean shit up and defend, then feed Stuck and Jerebko- and in spite of Jerebko going 3-8, most of those misses were missed tips in traffic that followed offensive boards. On those, usually someone else (or Jerebko himself) got the resulting basket.

sick rodney. just sick.

Have I mentioned that I love JJ?

@cody:
that’s what I was talking about, with jerebko missing tips and getting a million rebounds.

Jerebko goin to fucking work.

lmfao! Go JJ! awesome hustle. Although he came up like 2 feet short on that first dunk attempt.

Thanks for the explanation, MP.

Cue the bs fouls.

How much does Phoenix wish that they had Ben Wallace right now?

another phantom foul on jonas.

Am I the only one seeing that Stuck should play as a SG?

@cody:
That’s the third time he’s done that this game, totally unreal.

Ben Wallace for President!!!!

Ben wallace offensive genius.

brgulker
Nov 29th, 2009 at 2:26 pm

How much does Phoenix wish that they had Ben Wallace right now?
^^^^
Seeing as his style doesnt mesh with the run n gun style of the Suns and that they have one of the better records in the league without him, while the Pistons are losers of 7 straight, probably not that much.

Just saying……

It seems that Stuckey plays relaxed when he plays SG and actually gets some nice assists. When he starts at PG it seems he doesn’t just naturally relax and let his talent take over. Being in Atlanta, this is the first game I’ve gotten to watch. Have we been this scrappy all year???

We shouldn’t run the pick n roll with Chucky and Big Ben because neither can shoot the rock.

Jesus, Jonas!

Any other player would have gotten a foul call on that Jonas drive.

Why didn’t JJ get that foul call? WTF!

Jonas knows no fear. there’s no word in the swedish language for fear. but they do have 16 words for “pickled herring”

Ok this is ridiculous. 21-4 on the offensive glass? 21 motherfucking offensive rebounds?! lmao. This is great. JJ keeps attacking the basket and missing, but he or Ben keeps getting it back. I wish JJ would take better shots, but I guess I can’t complain as long as we’re getting all of these offensive boards lmao

Someone has to explain to me why Villanueva is playing so little.

MFWB should just shoot the mid-range J when they give him that much room. It’s like he has his mind made up that no matter what he’s going to the rack.

Daye with a couple very stupid turnovers.

Rookie mistake by Daye, being so careless with that pass.

@terrence lynch:
Someone has to explain to me why Villanueva is playing so little.

If you’ve been watching, Kuester’s lineups should speak for themselves. Regardless of CV’s minutes, this strategy is working.

Impressed with JJ but not impressed with what I’ve seen from Daye today. From previous box scores I know this hasn’t been his best game, but I’ve very unimpressed so far today.

interesting stat of the day

What is Ben Wallace’s best season of his career in per-minute offensive rebounding?

2009-10. That was before this game even started. 4.7 offensive rebounds per 36 is his best, with his rookie season just behind it at 4.6 offensive boards per 36.

It’s a Benaissance, bitches.

Bench came to play today

Ouch!

Charlie gushing blood

lol@ everyone on the Hawks and Pistons acting like this is ER. Let Mike and Arnie attend to him thanks guys lol

Zaza needs to get that hairlip herpes sore looked at. Charlie V gets knocked cold by big bens ass.

Ben’s hip broke Charlie’s nose.

you can see where pachulia hit him

Dear basketball injury gods: Enough is Enough already.

Man, that really is a deep cut he got there

Oh gosh. Hopefully Charlie V isn’t going to have to see Rip’s mask dude for a fitting…

pistons need to start attending injury church. Injury god is angry and demands a sacrifice. we’re running out of virgins.

Judging by the amount of blood and the fact that Big Ben is solid as a rock, my bet is that it’s broken. God I hope I’m wrong.

Speaking of Sheed, does anyone listen to the NBA ESPN podcast? Bucher was on last week and he said he saw Sheed after a game in the locker game and the guy’s gut is fat, dudes really out of shape and going through the motions damn. He had to go.

lmfao, way to suck it up and play.

They should take him back to the locker room

Good move

CV showed major guts by putting them down.

Charlie’s eye looks kinda swollen too.

thats the best pass Rodney has ever made on the break!

CV knocked down both. what a soldier. That nose is broken, though. No question in my mind.

THIS TEAM HAS GIANT BRASS BALLS.

im proud of our guys but im worried for an eventual 4th quarter meltdown… they’re bound to run out of gas, but i hope not!

Maxiell with a MAN’S rebound!

Is it bad that I was expecting a technical from us? It would have been if Sheed was stil here

MFWB on your FM dial!

Welcome back Rodney

we’re kinda gud at this basketball thing.

Run out of gas? I don’t mother fucking think so! Hell yes. I’m loving this.

lol@Jonas bringing his posse to the game

Basketgasm #2.

they’re actually playing uptempo, who would of thought? large ball to out run the hawks.

@MP, yeah, i need a towel after that. and a hot stone massage.

vinny chase: <em>MP, yeah, i need a towel after that. and a hot stone massage.

We can cuddle after the game’s over

@MP, ok, but only if i get to be the big spoon.

@vinny chase:
not fair!

over 60 points in the paint, wow.

@MP, yeah it prolly isnt fair. I’m like Nate Robinson tall in shoes.

just looked at the box: Ben Wallace triple double. I’ll say it again: Benaissance.

51 boards and counting. If you can’t out shoot em’, just beat the living shit out of em’.

That’s what’s hot in these Detroit streets eh?..smh lol

Good win for the Pistons they needed this though, god damn about time.

Jonas Jerebko just saved the game.

lmao. He threw it right into JJ’s lap.

Just seems like Maxiell’s talent is such a tease. He’s not as refined offensively but I just see Barkely Jr. written all over him, but that talent just isn’t being maximized. JJ with the phenomenal defensive play and Stuck with the J. I may have to order league pass to watch the boys more often. :-)

NO LAYUPS, CRAWFORD.

uh oh

Don’t piss it all away now boys.

I see more of a poor mans Paul Milsap in Maxiell.

@rban, would you agree that he doesn’t seem to maximize his talent though?

We better not give away this damn game. OMG.

Dammit Bibby get off our KoolAid.

I think spending last season in the doghouse screwed up Maxy’s development. So yeah, as always I blame Curry.

great, they let our only viking finish them

Arright Rob G, where you at— time for your signature.

Clutch free throws by Jonas. PISTONS WIN PISTONS WIN OH THE HUGE MANATEE!!!!!

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Jerebko first career double double.

Awesome win. Oh joy!

Gotta love the fans showing up with Viking horns to support the Fightin’ Swede. What a steal this kid was!

24-6 advantage on offensive rebounds. That is sick.

Lovng the hometown’s win on this NBA league PASS here in AL! I applaud the effort of the Stones!

Night of magic.

That one’s for my boy MFMP

Wow, what a hard-fought win that was. (When was the last time I said that about the entire team and not just McDyess?)

I don’t remember the last time I was so excited about a regular season win. This team has heart. They deserved this one.

And, Kue will never be AFI in my book. He’s the first one to start Max. And it paid off. 1-0 in the Max era!

head not and point to MFRG, while running back down the court

Fuck yeah. That was a necessary win. Happy Sunday everyone.

Night…umm…afternoon of magic!

SadPanda
Nov 29th, 2009 at 3:23 pm

I think spending last season in the doghouse screwed up Maxy’s development. So yeah, as always I blame Curry.
^^^
Thats a bingo.

Time to break out the celebratory lutefisk and lingonberry punch.

Put on the Movits and paint my face blue and yellow.

Big Ben had a double double, not a triple double…

@ Rob G

flip started maxiell before, in the playoffs too. against orlando.

@mannie

He means that Ben had double digit offensive boards. So not really a triple double but I’ll count it as one.

The Swedish are collectively rioting in their immaculately clean and crime free socialist gulags.

I think the Bernstein law firm is located under power lines on top of a toxic waste dump.

Remember, the Swedes may look all peaceful and quiet today but they are still Vikings at heart.

Great win overall. Bynum and Jerebko were amazing in the fourth, I couldn’t have asked for anything more.

However, it was kinda disappointing to see Rodney get away from dishing into the paint in the second half. He was making all his layups and was on pace for at least 30 and 10, but completely failed to adjust to the new defense. At the very least he’s improving, Bynum is 3 years older than him and played point for much longer, so hopefully he can smack some more sense into Stuck.

Ben Wallace = motherlovin player of the game.

@vinny chase:
I think the Bernstein law firm is located under power lines on top of a toxic waste dump.

+100

@MP, Thanks. Every time I see that commercial I think, damn, somebody needs to lay off the lead-paint popsicles.

@vinny:
no doubt, dude should call sam.

I don’t know if you can sue for having goofy looking kids, unless you plan to sue your own balls or something.

lol i think if one shyster tv lawyer reperesents another shyster tv lawyer it opens up a black hole or a rip in the space time continuum.

didn’t the pistons broadcasts used to be underwritten by “rock financial” or something? they were always advertising no money down interest only loans. somebody should ask the real estate market how that turned out for them, oh yeah that’s rite, it didn’t.

@sadpanda (awesome name btw) lol @ suing your own balls. oh man it feels good to win a game for once.

I missed this one because I was on the road all day, but holy shit. I watched the Cleveland and LAC games this week and thought that this team has some promise, we play hard and have absolutely no

Thanks Vinny. It would be better if he got in bed next to his wife and then handed her the papers suing her uterus.

In the other thread I pretty much chalked this game up as a loss but I didn’t figure that Stuckey would have an efficient game scoring an passing, that Ben Wallace would morph in to his 2001-2006 self. and that the team as a whole would just decide it was time to kick some ass. That was Deeeetroit basketball out there.

Whoops…

have absolutely no quit in us. Obviously we aren’t going to go too far this year, but you can see the building blocks being laid for the Goin To Work pt2 Era Pistons. So excited to see them in person in Philly next week.

23 & 8 is great to see from Stuckey. He did 95% of that in the first half. I’d love to see him have a complete game like that first half. But no wories, we won, we won, we won. Great overall team effort. Now that I get to see JJ play, he’s not a PF, he’s a small forward. We should just leave him there. He and Daye are small forwards, period. So Max, CV and when needed Wilcox are going to need to man the PF spot. Hope CV doesn’t miss too much time with what I suspect is a broken nose. We won the 4th quarter without our 4 best players. Now that’s what you call team basketball. Let’s go Boys, keep it up!!!

Any word on CV? Do we have another masked man on our team?

@mannie – That’s right. I remember Max doing really, really well in that series, but I didn’t remember that he started.

Fellas it looks like the schedule starts to balance back out. We started off with a rough schedule in November, but in December we have 15 games. Only two seem really really tough, Denver and Lakers. But the other 13 games don’t scare me. So maybe we can start to get back to .500 ball with a nice December if we can pull it off.

Anyone know where I could catch a replay of this game online?

I think this is what Dumars wanted when he said he wanted a good character team. He brought in players willing to work hard and give the effort necessary every night, even when the wins weren’t there. I get the feeling that Dumars master plan is to bring back the “Going to Work” effort of the early 2000’s, and gradually integrate the necessary talent back into the team. That’s why guys like Jerebko and Wallace are playing. And I think he brought in Gordon because he’s very professional and would definitely buy into the hard work aspect of the Pistons. I also think they brought in Villanueva because he’s still impressionable, and being around Ben Wallace has really made him step his game up defensively.

It seems like we’re building character right now and a complete team later. Hence why we’re 6-11 (though the injuries are responsible for quite a few of those losses) but the team’s fighting like it’s competing for the title.

I’m with Nick T. (and others, I infer): this was the most enjoyable regular season win in a long, long time. I’m resisting the urge to devolve into sports-cliche speak with terms like “gutty,” but really — not having arguably your best three players (at least on offense) for the whole game, not having your only big with a legit offensive game down the stretch. . . .

Oh and Mike P., I like “Benaissance.” Lord knows how truly awful we would be without Wallace playing way better than expected.

Charlie Villanueva was fitted for a mask for his broken nose and will play for the Pistons on Wednesday in Chicago, source tells Y! Sports.

It seems that Stuckey plays relaxed when he plays SG and actually gets some nice assists. When he starts at PG it seems he doesn’t just naturally relax and let his talent take over. – E-Double

I agree. Stuckey’s looks very comfortable at the shooting guard position. I liked Kuester’s decision to start Chucky at point and slide Stuckey to the 2. We need the veteran leadership Chucky can provide with all the injuries we are dealing with.
I also liked the decision to start Maxiell over Villanueva. Jerebko, Maxiell and Ben are a physical frontcourt and Villanueva can provide instant offense off the bench.
I hope Kuester finds a way to maximize the team’s potential when everyone is healthy. In other words, he’s got to make adjustments like he did today and resist the temptation to play the three guard lineup for extended periods of time.

interesting anecdote of the day:
$20,843,447 in collective salary just beat $61,718,466 in collective salary.

Money can’t buy you love, or a win apparently.

MP: +Infinity for the term “Benaissance” fo sho.

Mebe I’m naive but, I think Jonas could play PF, he’s 6-10 230 with spidey-like ball-senses. One of these days I’d like to see him get time with Tay at the 3, Rip/Stuck at the 2, MFWB on point, and the Benaissance man himself at center. That lineup would have gud defensive chops and a versatile offensive game. If the injury gods ever stop standing on our teams’ collective dicks we gon be hella-deep.

Panda,

The Knicks have proved a long time ago that money can buy you bad haircuts and fake boobs, but not heart.

Vinny,
Jonas could play PF, but I think he performs much better against SF. Despite all the size, I don’t think he really has the right body to constantly bang in the paint. He’s very agile, I’d rather keep it that way than force him to put on weight; that’s a big reason why he gets all those offensive rebounds.

But it is very interesting that Stuckey seems much more relaxed at running the offense from the 2 than the 1. Perhaps its a mental thing, and not a lack of understanding? Chauncey would often run the offense from the top of the key, but Stuckey seems to forget that he can also do this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-SIRWIHUj8
I wonder why he got away from that, he seemed to be so comfortable in the 2008 playoffs compared to last year or even now. Maybe last year was more damaging to his psyche than we understand, I mean he put up 9-10 assists off the bench for a week right before he got the starting job.

Didn`t see the game, but just read the entire stuff. Great comments, folks. But I think Vinny Chase (who made me lol a few times) wins it all with this:

http://www.detroitbadboys.com/archives/2009-11-29/pistons-hawks-game-thread-2/#comment-204904

Hopefully we can keep up the effort and get a nice equilibrium of talent (when our injured guys are healthy) and effort (so our hustle guys can keep getting minutes). It`s going to be a fun season.

(haha, that should have said, “just read the entire comments thread. Great stuff…”)

@Vinny Chase:
MP: +Infinity for the term "Benaissance" fo sho.

This… is the Benaissance. For we are in the Age of Benlightenment.

Thanks Garrett, I’ll be here all week, remember to tip your waitress and, as always, try the veal. I’m a longtime lurker and fan of this site. If it weren’t for all of you’s guys (and a nicely retooled squad of misfit pistons) I wouldn’t be here. Golf claps all around.

Just when I think we’ve reached the pinnacle of the Benaissance, we transition to the age of Benlightenment. MP wins the honorary Gift certificate to the “Jason Maxiell Baby Buffet and Lube Oil and Filter Emporium”

I’m a longtime lurker and fan of this site. If it weren’t for all of you’s guys (and a nicely retooled squad of misfit pistons) I wouldn’t be here. Golf claps all around.

Don’t go anywhere, Vinny Chase— you were a blast in this thread. Lurk no more, lurk no more! You’re on your way to the Brandon Jennings DBB Rookie of the Year Award.

LOL @ ROY award for forum thread shenanigans. IRL I’m 5’4" 120lbs and do not belong anywhere near a basketball court. In high school, I took “team sports” as a gym class and got every single one of my shots blocked and thrown into the bleachers.

Nowadays the closest I get to left-handed layup crossover dribbles is when I switch hands to add a little excitement to my daily chronic masturbation habit.

you are amphibious!

No I think that’s when you jerk off underwater with the off hand. Don’t quote me on that though;)

Btw, Villanueve tweeted he will have surgery tomorrow.

How does it take to get a mask made? A few days? A week?

At least we’re just playing Chicago, Milwaukee and Philly in the upcoming games, so really only Washington looks daunting. Jennings has seriously cooled off since playing the Spurs and Chicago’s PF and PA averages are considerably worse than our own. Washington on the other hand looks brilliant some nights, horrible on others, but they seem to consistently have a very potent offense short of Larry Brown spanking them.

Bench some of our starters in lieu of a few guys from the 2nd unit and we get results like this. funny how in the not too distant past guys were screaming about how our best players needed to start in order for us to be successful.

cant wait to see what happens when BG gets back…

Arnie Kander def wasn’t bullshitting about Jonas Jerebko’s test results. kid’s got some serious hops.

If I remember correctly, McDyess had the same surgery to re-set a broken nose a couple of years ago and played a day or two later.

I was thinking the samething, in the playoffs against Philly he broke his nose. I don’t recall exactly how long it took so I figured I’d ask

@scntfc:
funny how in the not too distant past guys were screaming about how our best players needed to start in order for us to be successful.

Oh, cool. Passive-aggression. My girlfriend does that too.

Those “guys who were screaming” were the same ones who said this:

if your concerns are about scoring options in our second unit, our problems are absolutely not in the backcourt.

So those who thought your idea of starting Daye over BG was batshit crazy, and that we should focus on our frontcourt instead— are somehow wrong because CV came off the bench? Bizarro!

awaits the trademark skirting

While there are still games yet to play today, I went through the math— the Pistons moved from 22nd in the league to 19th in the league in rebounding with today’s game.

It’s also possible that we moved from 7th in the league in opponent rebounding to 5th in the league. Funny enough, despite concerns about rebounding this season, we’re regularly out-rebounding our opponents. A lot more often than not.

What impresses me the most about this team is that, despite all the new faces, new coach, and injuries, there is still a consistent effort to make lemonade with our motley crew of lemons. I think many were doubting our frontcourt and our clusterfuck of shooting guards. And they were right to have doubts. For awhile it looked like Kwame “Stone-Hands” Brown was our starting center for turd’s sake.

But coach Q has the unenviable task of figuring out balanced rotations while simultaneously absorbing the loss of starter after starter. Michael “how did I get this fucking job again” Curry would be in meltdown mode right meow, yet Q is cautiously optimistic in the face of an overwhelming shitstorm of injuries.

This team, when healthy, has OPTIONS. Small Ball, Tall Ball, Half Court, Run and Gun, zone defense, BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY THIS TEAM HAS BALLS ANY WAY YOU COUNT EM.

BIG. FUCKING. HAIRY. BRASS. BALLS.

and like Adam Lambert at a high school swim meet, I can’t help but admire the abundance of balls.

looking forward to this year no matter how many games we win. for the first time in many a moon i can proudly say, those are my pistons, and aren’t their balls beautiful.

Didn’t Atkins start this game? he didn’t do well #s wise but he did use up some of our Back court minutes, Right? Is CV a better player than Maxiel? He sure gave our 2nd unit more of a scoring punch also. And hell even Maxiel was more productive as a starter than he’s been as a bench player all season. Daye will start over BG as well. Just dont scratch your head and wonder why like you did at the top of this thread.

“Oh, cool. Passive-aggression. My girlfriend does that too.”

what about my last post was aggressive? what part of what I said about starting Daye in place of BG was passive?

here is a quote from the game.“Kuester changed the starting lineup for this one, Jason Maxiell stepping in for Charlie V and Chucky Atkins for Austin Daye to help buy some minutes in the backcourt for Rodney Stuckey and Will Bynum.”

You’re right Mike Our back court isn’t the problem, Its just the amount of minutes that they play which I alluded to repeatedly.

But on the bright side of things. we won. G’day to you mate.

and like Adam Lambert at a high school swim meet, I can’t help but admire the abundance of balls.

+100

Vinny Chase is full of win in this thread.

So Ben Wallace’s ass broke Charlie’s nose? That stinks.

Not sure what Qster is gonna do when guys start coming back,one thing I’m not gonna do is worry about our coaching Q gets the most outa these guys and is not afraid to shake up the line up.

what about, when everyone is healthy (if that ever happens)

starters:

gordon, rip, tay, max, ben

bench:

MFWB, stuck, Swede, Chunky Charlie, kwame “stone hands” brown

alternates:

wrong dajaun, dayeshaun, wontcox

methodology:

starters play half court hard nosed defensive bball

bench players exploit opposite bench for maximum points

thoughts?

I don’t see Joe having both Stuck and Bynum ride bench though man.

I’m late to this party, but does anyone else out there think that the people giving testimonials to the “Bernstein Advantage” were on their way to a casting call for a new John Waters’ film?

Also, is it my imagination, or is their actually method to Kuester’s madness when he juggles the lineup, as opposed to his predecessor?

Don’t think that will ever happen ,but if it did ,that would be a helluv a bench.

I never thought I’d see chucky atkins start a game either. could be a great problem to have as long as Q keeps the culture of accountability and we finally get cured of the injury bug.

Pretty sure those are his kids, V

@VC

Chucky last start in Detroit was November 30, 2002. I was listening to the while out of town & heard that.

I DVR’d the game and I’m watching now before bed. It’s a fun one to watch, I like both of these teams alot, from the players to the Coaches.

Yo, props to CV31 for shooting both them joints with a broken nose.

Having multiple options and line-ups to use is a good problem to have. I’d rather have too many quality players versus not enough. Thank God we have Q to work it out. Curry would just start whomever yells the loudest. The blessing in all these injuries is that it gives guys good experience. As we head down the back side of the season, guys will have their rookie jitters worked out by then. Regardless of the record and the 7 game losing streak, I think we’ve been in every game except Phoenix. That’s very encouraging. Just think about how many games the old crew just tossed in the trash with no effort, even though we would win 50 games or so.

Excellent breakdown of Stuckey’s dribble penetration/decision making performance yesterday by Patrick Hayes: http://bit.ly/5kj6M4

@Vinnie Chase:

I like that lineup, except i’d rather see Stuck over BG in the starting lineup. Then, we could roll with MFWB, BG, JJ/Daye, CV, and Kwame for our second unit. That’s a hell of a second unit as well.

@Vinny Chase -100 for the “Adam Lambert” remark… bad shtick and for thinking that Ben Gordon should be the starting PG with all the weak scorers coming off the bench thinking that would somehow exploit the other team.

@all others

Good win yesterday

I just don’t understand how an NBA team goes 0-17. There are other crappy teams in the league also, so you should be able to beat one of them. But hell, the Lions went an entire season winless, so I guess anything’s possible. Damn, the Lions didn’t win one single game for an entire season. Even though that was just last season, still doesn’t sound possible to me. Sweet Lord.

Regarding Stuckey’s decision making; Q should make him sit and watch game film of Parker, Nash, D-Williams and CP3 for hours. Most notable Parker, since he drives so damn much. He has the skills, if he could just put it all together and increase his b-ball IQ, he could be a BEAST!!!

“I just don’t understand how an NBA team goes 0-17.”

Your supposed starting lineup:

Devin Harris
Courtney Lee
CDR
Yi Jianlian
Brook Lopez

Your actual starting lineup:

Rafer Alston
Terrence Williams
CDR
Josh Boone
Brook Lopez

And if that’s their starting lineup, can you imagine their bench? They’ve been running a 7-man rotation for most of the season. Just a disastrous string of injuries.

Kind of puts into perspective just how great our coaching staff has been, given that we’ve had as many injuries to even better players and have stayed relatively afloat during their absences. Other than the Suns game we’ve had a chance to win every game this season and our guys no doubt have been playing their guts out even though they know they’re undermanned.

Not that 1 win changes the world, but I think this could start to change some opinions about letting Washington go to keep chucker. Almost posted the other day to ask out loud how long the losing streak could reach, not thinking for a minute we could hang with ATL. Then losing CV too? Good times for pistons bball and the Benaissance. And after one of his best games this season, it still seems to lead to more questions about how Stuck fits with this team. If he can’t be a starting pg, what future could he have with this team?

Our schedule is really about to loosen up for us. Of the next 15 or so games, we face just 2 “elite” teams In LA and DEN. Dec. provides plenty of oppurtunity to put together a win streak or two. Which means we will be approaching the trade deadline in much better standings than we currently hold.

Ones got to think that the play of JJ has made Taye that much more expendable. Last nights game kinda’ reminded me that we can actually beat anyone on any given night. We just can’t rely/expect BW to put up such herculean efforts on a regular basis.

Lets say the team really clicks this month and goes like 12 and 3
Would it be time to take that gamble and try to get an expiring contract? I know everyone likes Boozer, So do I. But what about even for Bosh? He’s crying his eyes out up there. yeah he’s a FP, But he is doing 25 and 12.

Only thing is almost all deals will involve Rip/Tay. Tay I have become some what detached from. But I am still Leery of losing Rip. He was such a glue guy for our gaurds. Not trying to insinuate anything. But our 04 team ended the season 54-28 our schedule doesn’t get “hectic” again till March. We could def. go deep into the playoffs this year and have a salary dump.

Re: FPCB4

I look at Bosh, what he’s said and how he carries himself and I think that this is a dude who desperately wants to be paired with a Superstar, obviously Wade, but if that doesn’t work, somebody else. I don’t see him looking at Detroit as viable unless something damaging happens to his value this season. We’re not getting the respect of the league right now because of a bad start and a horrible previous season with Iverson.

Even ‘Bron Bron said he doesn’t consider Detroit a rival anymore. I couldn’t give two shits what ole crabwalk says, but the league thinks more highly of him.

Personally if I was the Craptors I’d be trying to move dude for the best deal possible because you’re hearing less talk about how he loves Toronto and more about how his team is weak and inferior.

Good take on the Bosh situation, I think that would make it more of a win win for both teams. he can get the hell out of there, which he obviously wants to do. they can get something back for him. and we get another ingredient to experiment with, with cap space at the end.

Whatever the trade possibilities are, I just hope we dont take back a multi year contract because we still dont know what we have. And we don’t know how things will pan out this summer. would be nice to have some spending $ again tho’.

I’m not clear on why so many people are hung up on what position that Stuckey plays. He’s asked to do pretty much the same things if he’s playing PG or SG; wait for the offense to run through it’s progressions, be aggressive when possible, pass the ball when someone’s open.

Why does it matter if he’s playing SG or PG as long as he follows his progressions and recognizes defenses and open players? I certainly don’t care. We just happen to have a plethora of SG’s (when everyone is healthy), so it just makes more sense for him to play PG. We don’t REALLY want Atkins soaking minutes when everyone is healthy, do we?

It’s also becoming apparent that JJ may be passing (have passed?) Prince for usefulness at the SF spot at this point. I’m not sure Prince on his best day can match the defensive energy and rebounding prowess that JJ now displays. And, if JJ is actually starting to get some confidence about his shot, then it’s not even close. JJ wins hands down.

I like Prince… but… Prince needs to go. Unfortunately, he’s probably gonna have to convince everyone he can still play bball considering the nature of his injury. Darn him and his timing!

I’m with MFSKZ:
No, no on Bosh.

He wants superstar money even though he’s not a superstar. He’s too frail to play the 5, which is where we need help. Statistically, we have 95% of the player for 50% of the cost in Villanueva. In even minutes, Bosh and Villanueva were nearly identical in their last completed season. 2008-09, even minutes at 36:

Villanueva: 21.7ppg 8.9rpg 2.4 apg 0.9 spg 1.0 bpg 2.4 t/o efg .488
Bosh: 21.5ppg 9.5rpg 2.3 apg 0.8 spg 0.9 bpg 2.1 t/o efg .492

If we’re going to make a move for a player, it should be one we can realistically retain after this season, and use whatever bird rights we get in the trade to try and resign them. Bosh will ask for a max contract and teams will offer him a max contract— a bidding war Detroit should have nothing to do with.

He’s just not worth max money, especially when we have a player who is so similar to Bosh in terms of production— for just $6.5 million this season. I understand Bosh is far and beyond CV this season, but CV has still not hit his peak minutes with Detroit, and will likely take another year to hit his peak production. Long term, we’ve got a much, much better option with CV than we would giving Bosh a lot more than double Charlie’s salary.

Boozer, on the other hand, is a bit too much of a “damaged goods” case to really qualify for a max contract. Last season, its possible he could have been had for $13M, which is close to the ceiling of his worth. Sadly, since so many teams have cleared space for big prizes this summer, with so few prizes to go around, there will be plenty of teams with money to overpay Boozer. He’ll likely get overpaid. My fear is that he signs with Chicago, who has boku bucks this coming summer. They’ll overpay, but they’ll also go from zero to elite in the ECF (provided they can address the replacement of Ben Gordon).

With that, neither Bosh nor Boozer would likely stick around if we made a trade for them. What’s more, Toronto wouldn’t want either Tay or Rip in a trade. They wouldn’t want Tay if they just added Hedo, they won’t want Rip because they’re very high on Derozan and taking on such a big aging contract is a huge risk for them. They’ll move Bosh for nothing less than a stud or a group of studs.

My regret, still, is that we couldn’t get Okafor on our team. A lower profile, lower salary, productive CENTER who needs a chance to prove himself in a new environment. His relationship with Ben and Charlie would have been a solid base to build on.

(also, a scoring backup 4 would be nice, like we could have had with a guy like Hakim Warrick)

@Big Z:
It’s also becoming apparent that JJ may be passing (have passed?) Prince for usefulness at the SF spot at this point.

I’m with you. If JJ can exhibit a steady shooting touch and prove to be a consistent wing for another 10 games in a row, “passed” is probably accurate.

Unless we can get that instant upgrade like we did with Rasheed in ‘04, however, I might rather hang on to Tay. If its just a salary dump and we don’t get an upgrade, we might as well let Tay expire after next season. When Tay and Stuckey are up, there will be plenty of nice options whether or not we want to retain them. Like Carl Landry, for example, the Dyess 2.0 to CV’s Sheed 2.0. But that’s just speculation at this point…

@ MP

Lower salary? $9.5mil is a lower salary compared to whom? He’s IN a new environment and he’s STILL not “proving himself.” 10 and 10 for almost $10mil? No thanks. I’ll revel in the Bennaisance, thank you.

Speaking of Okafor, there have been zero updates about the Sacramento Kings / New Orleans trade of Kenny Thomas for Okafor that first hit on November 14th. At this point, it’s probably safe to say that is dead, if it existed in the first place. I’m holding out hope that NO thinks better options will come after the December 15th trade restrictions expire.

…and by “better options” I mean “chris wilcox”.

Bosh is so lazy on D its not funny, he plays that “fake D” that Rasheed has talked about.

the smallest of guards take it at Bosh all the time, as a Canadian i have the Raps forced down my throat daily.. believe me we do not want Chris Bosh here, hes a nice player but hes not a Piston.

@joe dip:
“Lower Salary” when compared to the two other guys I mentioned— Bosh and Boozer. They’ll both be sniffing at max contracts this summer.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but 29 minutes a game on a team that just fired the coach of the year 07 and lost its superstar PG to injury doesn’t qualify as a shiny new environment.

Furthermore, I think the 13, 10 and 2 Okafor put up last year is worth the same salary Tay earned last year. And I’m confident he’ll follow up that 13, 10 and 2 with an as good or better performance by the end of this season.

I was reading a chat at Hoopsworld, and someone brought up the fact that the Magic have some crazy payroll issues. Obviously, they are determined to win right now, but they have to also be looking at ways to cut payroll. They have about $78 mil committed to just 8 players for next year. Yikes!

I would say paying the back up to the best player in the league at his position a full mid-level deal to play 16 minutes a game is not exactly the benchmark for financial prudence.

Long story short; the Magic almost have to trade Gortat before the start of next season. If they could find the right deal, they would probably trade him before that. As a BYC player, they could take back as little as about 2.3 million in salary if they trade him before his BYC status is expired. If they could get a solid prospect, they would probably consider it.

Summers could fit in nice with their style. How about Summers and Kwame for Reddick and Gortat? I doubt the Magic will extend Reddick the $3.8 mil qualifying offer for next year (salary issues again). So, the Magic would save about $4.2 mil this year ($8.4 mil with the tax). Kwame is expiring, altough he might be a great fit to back up Howard and the Magic could probably keep him for less if they wanted.

The Magic would probably want a better prospect, but I’m just saying………………….

Big Z (btw, i hope your real name is zeljko), my concerns with where stuck plays is due to how our offense and cap space work. If we now have 3 sg’s, one of whom plays best off a passing guard, then I don’t think our offense will function well and there won’t be enough ball movement (or shots to go around). And, when stuck’s up for a contract, we’ll be paying 24 mil a year to the other sgs already. To resign him at that point would be a pretty big deal, considering all the head scratching that went on this summer when we signed bg when we already had rip. I understand that if all 3 can be unselfish and play defense well, then it could work, but that would be a pretty unique situation in the league. I believe jod traded cb cause he thought he had his future pg on the team. If stuck isn’t a pg, then we have to move 1 or 2 of the sg’s to get one.
And i think one double/double doesn’t replace mftp.

@craig:
one of whom plays best off a passing guard
This has been talked about on here before, mostly mid-season last year after Chauncey had been traded. Interestingly enough, the stats don’t support the assumption that Hamilton plays his best off of a passing guard. Rip’s play last season, and the stats from seasons prior, showed this to be mostly a myth.

Hamilton’s assisted rate stayed the same last season as it was the season prior with Chauncey. In 2007-08, 69% of Hamilton’s shots were assisted, and in 2008-09, 70% of his shots were assisted. While his shooting percentage dipped, this was mostly behind the arc and as a result of taking one-and-a-half more shots per game. It ended up a respectable 45% from the floor.

While Hamilton had his best years next to Chauncey, his performance in the full season last year showed that he can be just as productive without a passing guard.

Tangential, I know. Your point that a passing guard would better compliment the rest of our guards remains true, just wanted to comment on the Rip’s play.

(oh, and as for getting a pure point player, I wish there was some way we could make a move for Ramon Sessions. Minny is in dire need of an SG, and they’re playing Sessions out of position and behind Flynn because they feel Flynn has a higher ceiling. while I don’t want to move Stuckey, we could probably make a deal for Stuck + contract for Sessions, whose numbers these last two seasons are not indicative of his point ability)

stuckey + contract for sessions? sign me up.

@mp
 boku bucks?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JEbnWl8iz0

@dandresden:
such glorious hair!!

Thanks for the #‘s, MP, although that wasn’t the crux of my argument, it was an assumption that I had. As for the above mentioned trade, how about wontcox and mfwb for sessions? I think stuck’s value is still perceived to be higher then wb’s. I’d also want to give stuck the remainder of the year to prove he can run the point.

Okefor > Tayshaun

Please, is that even an argument? You know how many 13/10/2/55%fg guys are in the entire league? Well that list makes up maybe one hand. Plus he’s a true center— again, a list that makes up maybe one hand with quality players. He’s exactly what we’ve needed since Ben left in ’06. To think a middling SF making more money is anywhere NEAR as potentially valuable to this team is ignorance at best.

@craig:
Thanks for the #’s, MP, although that wasn’t the crux of my argument

Totally understood, I got ya.

wontcox and mfwb for sessions?

Minnesota’s problem is that they really, really needs a shooting guard. In a bad way. They’re playing Sessions out of position, which is what Skiles did for much of last season. Both did so due to roster weaknesses. But now, they’re hurting, and the backcourt of Sessions and Flynn is a big part of their failure. Kahn even flat out said that it isn’t working.

I bet they’d take Stuckey + Contract for Sessions. I bet they’d do it in a heartbeat. I’d hate to let Stuckey go, but Sessions might be the only non-obvious player I’d let him go for.

Stuckey works better in Minny at the 2, because Flynn has a solid perimeter game. Stuckey’s poor outside shooting won’t matter as much in tandem with Flynn.

Sessions put up 15.1 and 7.6 in 36 games as a starter last season— and some of that was out of position at the 2 guard. At the point, he registered a PER of 20.1. We’re in a position to help out Minny’s problems, and Sessions would instantly, entirely change the production of our offense.

I agree sessions would be a good fit, but I think in terms of value, stuck is a greater asset, and could net us more in a trade. But we have a gang of sg’s and nobody who is a straight pg.

Stuck for Sessions is a major downgrade

I think people are too caught up in a nominal position.

Stuckey was handling the ball and passing well, who cares if he’s not a pure PG. He works..

As for Emeka: He’s putting up 10 & 10- to me that certainly is not worth the 11, 12, 13, 14 and 15 million dollars that he is slated to get.

Yeha id rather have Stuckey then Sessions regardless of positions, who says we need a pure PG anyways, Chauncey grew into a better floor general but he was never a “pure” PG. Now I’m not saying its the same thing, but like JJ said were getting to caught up in positions.

@JJ:
As for Emeka: He’s putting up 10 & 10

In 29 minutes of play. On a team that just fired its coach. Also on a team who lost its superstar PG to injury. I think its safe to say that Okafor will return to or best his season averages from last year.

Stuck for Sessions is a major downgrade

How so?

Coming to the UConn Pistons could really motivate Okafor. The Bobcats/Hornets are all he’s ever known. The Hornets are mess right now, playing with CP3P0 notwithstanding. I would argue that the Pistons in 2009/10 are a more stable and positive environment than what he’s been in since entering into the draft.

I look at Okafor as an NBA underachiever- but it’s not too late for the guy to breakout, Detroit has a rep for doing that to you sometimes. I’d like him cheaper though, to be sure.

Good to see Big Ben leadin the league in offensive rebounds per game.

i dont really see how sessions is a downgrade from stuckey, from what i have seen of him it appears that he can finish at the basket, shoot from the floor and has a nice passing touch. what advantages does stuckey have over sessions? his size? what am i missing about stuckey that he does so much better than sessions where one would say that sessions is a major downgrade?

Well if we move Rip and had sessions and Gordon we would be alot weaker defensively, Stuckey is already underated as a defender but hes taking all the tough match ups this season and hes playing great defense on whoever he mans.

Thats something I really love about the Stuckey Gordon combo, BG takes the opposing PG’s on D and Stuckey takes the 2guard.

“Good to see Big Ben leading the league in offensive rebounds per game.”

I agree, I hope that he has another year in him. Otherwise we may go into next season with the same hole that we had when this season started. That is why I am hoping that any deal that we make via trade will involve an expiring contract. If we do a deal for a big with yrs. remaining that means we are just buying insurance for next year. and that will likely keep us at or above the Lux tax. bringing in an expiring player will give us so much more leeway this summer.

And while our MLE will do us some good next summer. it would seam like we would have to spend slightly beyond that to “complete” our team. In any event I think that the dumbest move for Joe D. to make would be to stand pat with the impending trade deadline.
http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_id=9031

I would love to see Okafor wearing Pistons blue, but not at his price tag. Since per 36 minutes is so popular, let’s check out some interesting numbers from a not-so-random sample of NBA centers:

Per 36 (pts/reb/blks @ age and 09-10 salary):

Okafor: 12.3/12.1/2.4 @ 27 years and $10.8 mil
Gortat: 8.6/8.8/2.2 @ 25 years and $5.8 mil
Brown (yes, Kwame): 8.8/9.8/0.5 @ 27 years and $4 mil

And, just for fun…

Tay (last year): 13.7/5.6/0.6 @ 29 years and $10.3 mil
Jerebko: 9.2/6.7/0.7 @ 22 years and $0.5 mil (15 NBA games ever played in his life)

Now, I really don’t think blanketly comparing per 36 stats makes a lot of sense. There are reasons most players don’t play 36 minutes. However, Okafor is grossly overpaid, Kwame has a very reasonable contract, and trade Tay now!

Yes, Okafor hasn’t been in the best situations and he is a nice player. The thing is, he is due to make about $63 mil over the next five years. You’d have to be very sure he’s the piece to sign up for that.

Big men are constantly over paid. The trick is to find one who is either locked up long-term on a very reasonable contract (Gortat/can’t think of anybody else), score one in the draft (Howard/Bynum/Odom/etc.), or just get lucky (Rasheed/Marc Gasol/etc.).

I would much rather have Gortat at mid-level money than Okafor for crazy cash. By the way, Kwame should be making at least $9.5 mil per year at those per 36 numbers. I kid.

Stuckey vs. Sessions

Stuckey has a size advantage over Sessions: two inches in height and 10-15 pounds in weight. Logically, this advantage would help finish at the rim, draw contact and fouls, and defend on the other end of the floor. Funny enough, Sessions is a better finisher at the rim, draws many more fouls that Stuckey and had a better defensive rating last season— all in half as many starts as Stuckey.

Even on a per game basis, Sessions outperformed Stuckey in 4.5 less minutes per game. Even out both players minutes at 36, Sessions is clearly superior in every way. 2 more free throw attempts per game, 2 more assists per game, more rebounding and steals, less fouls and a better shooting percentage.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=sessira01&y1=2009&p2=stuckro01&y2=2009

But stats only tell half of the story. Sessions spent a large portion of his minutes last year a) off the bench and b) at the 2-guard for the injured Michael Redd. Sessions started at the 2 many times last year instead of the smaller Ridnour, as such his assist numbers were skewed. When Sessions did play the point, he was a rock star.

I watched Sessions’ coming-out game during his rookie year against Chicago. 20 points, 24 assists (tying the all-time rookie record), but zero perimeter defense. Duhon stood at the 3 commanding traffic and scoring uncontested threes. The year following, under Scott Skiles, Sessions didn’t start due to defensive concerns. Skiles opted for the experienced Luke Ridnour instead.

However, as the season wore on, and after Michael Redd was injured, Sessions exerted himself on defense against the competing two guards. He did quite well, to the point that Skiles decided to move him to his natural position at the point. His floor leadership, his passing AND his defense were all much improved from this learning experience.

Even in spite of all this movement— from the bench to the 2 guard and eventually back to the point, Sessions eventually averaged 15.1 points, 7.6 assists, 1.3 steals and 44% shooting in 33 minutes as a starter. He started 39 games, many at the 2 guard, but still managed 7.6 assists on the season.

Fast forward to this season, and Sessions wasn’t re-hired by Milwaukee— and I think we can all see why. Brandon Jennings is a stud, rookie of the year unless Blake Griffin plays huge for the second half. Not to mention, Milwaukee was at the cap. Now, Sessions is in Minnesota, where the coach is opting for the “younger player with a higher ceiling” and forcing Sessions to prove himself once again. All dude has done is prove himself— from the D-League to 20 points and 24 assists in a game. From the bench to 15 and 8 as a starter.

If we want a “natural point guard”, Sessions is a clear upgrade over Stuckey. Last season, there wasn’t a thing Stuckey did better than Sessions— even the supposed strengths of Stuckey (driving, drawing contact, defending), Sessions did better. If you’re the Hollinger type, Stuckey put up a 17.0 PER last season at the point (while giving up an 18.2 PER to his man). Sessions put up 20.6 PER at the point, while giving his man 14.1. On the shitty no-Redd, no-Bogut Bucks.

He spent a season dishing to Charlie Villanueva. He’s a natural point that could help a team that has essentially three SGs and a one-on-one-minded PG. I’ve been on the record defending the shit out of Stuckey. I’ve said here on this site for the longest time that you don’t need a pure point player to win a championship. I’ve said assist totals aren’t that important of a stat.

But yeah, in every objective and subjective means, Sessions is a better player than Stuckey. And I’d make a deal for him in a heartbeat.

I just think Stuckey needs more time, I mean even if hes struggling in some area’s he has improved some in others, he seems to be keeping his dribble longer which is someting he has problems with. His free throw shooting has been alot more consistant 86%, and hes averaging a very solid 18 4 and 4.

I’m not sure if Stuck is the future or not, but I sure would like to see him play with our full roster, if that ever happens, because with more spacing he becomes more dangerous.

I’d take Stuckey over Sessions in a heartbeat. Last year Sessions couldn’t get on the court because of Luke freaking Ridnour. This year it’s a rookie. No one wanted to sign him for the MLE to be their starter. Offensively I like Sessions, I certainly think he should have been playing at least 30 minutes per game the past two years, he’s shown he can win, but I think there’s a reason he’s had trouble getting his spot.

He’s never going to be a guy who can contain opposing pg penetration, which is absolutely essential.

On that same lines, I think its crazy Stuckey isn’t getting more praise. He has continually made tangible improvements in his game and is putting up 17/4/4 right now – if I said this summer that he’d be putting up those numbers, would we really be upset? And at some point this season, he’s going to start hitting 50 percent of his shots and that’s going to be goddamn scary.

So Stuckey isn’t a complete point guard yet. Sue him. But it’s logical – he’s a scorer. We drafted him as a scorer. He’s figuring out how to get his, and before long he’ll figure out how to get others involved better. The grass on the other side ain’t greener on this one.

Totally agree, i’ve been really surprised there hasnt been more love for Stuckey’s performance so far, sure he’s putting up some bad shooting nights, he presses to much at times because of our new team, hes unsure what he has, but it seems hes starting to find it.

As the season goes on, he’ll become more comfortable with his teamates and where they like the ball, where there sweet sports are. He plays tough D these days which he doesnt get enough respect for as well. He really D’d up on some tough opponents, gave it his all and flourished at times. Theres still tons to love about Stuckey and he still seems to be improving.

yeah i think sessions would be a good move, but hopefully joe is thinking more about the front court than more back court trades.

regarding stuckey though i think it comes down to a couple of questions:
what are the expectations for stuckey? are we expecting him to be a better player than sessions is currently? also, i know that there is a lot of extenuating circumstances regarding his development, but when do you just cut your losses with him and decide maybe he’s not the future of the team, maybe he’s just a good role player?

stuckey has looked better on d this year. i will give him props on that.

Wow, Stuckey is definitely our black sheep. This coming off a 23 and 8 game too.

i cant handle the fact that he doesnt seem to know how to do a finger roll or any sort of elementary finish at the rim that doesnt involve using two hands and throwing the ball off the back board. its really frustrating to me to watch him throw up point blank bricks when if he just used a softer touch 75% of those shots would fall.

Yall Stuckey promoters get a Soul Clap. Ben Wallace’s full tilt Beast Mode, Jerebko’s nasty attitude and Willie Bynumite rushing other sucka teams like it was Normandy all have contributed to me overlooking Stuckey Mack’s good play lately.

This is why despite losses and a kind of crap record, I am rather amped about this Pistons team we have here.

Man, I’ve defended the hell out of Stuckey all season, probably to the point of being annoying. I think he’s not yet at his potential and he’ll be solid going forward, starter or not. Hell, a week or so ago there was a featured post on here about who to start: bynum or stuckey. I’ve been high on Stuckey at the lowest points.

However, I’m also a huge Sessions fan. So I like to think through what he’d do with this roster. At present, their past performance as recorded statistically favors Sessions. That’s the extent of that, and why I’d “make a trade in a heartbeat”.

i cant handle the fact that he doesnt seem to know how to do a finger roll or any sort of elementary finish at the rim that doesnt involve using two hands and throwing the ball off the back board. its really frustrating to me to watch him throw up point blank bricks when if he just used a softer touch 75% of those shots would fall.

Definitely true. Seems he just naturally doesn’t have that finishing ability. But I’m hoping he can Reggie up his game a bit and turn that into a non-issue. Take Chauncey for instance – he never goes into the paint actually planning on having to make the bucket. Stuckey’s just got to learn how to act up that contact.

I can’t fathom giving up Stuckey for Sessions. I haven’t had a chance to watch much of us this year, but I did see the Cleveland game last week. Rodney Stuckey is the only reason we were anywhere remotely close to being in that game down the stretch and I walked away from that performance extremely impressed with him. Before we do anything crazy like trade Stuckey (and yes, that would be crazy at this point), we need to see how our whole team plays together.

I still don’t understand why ATL and Philly passed on Sessions. Those up-tempo teams would be scary as hell with Sessions.

Sessions to Smith? Yes please.

1st season – only half a season, and the kid played great
2nd season – the season from hell where every young player regressed and his job was basically handing the ball over to either Rip or A freaking I.
3rd season – 17 games

I’m not saying he has met my every expectation, in fact I have been let down at times but at other times the kid has shown me that he can be a good player, but its amazing how quickly the kid has been thrown under the bus.

Why are people in such a hurry to give up on a kid on his third season that has a lot of natural physical tools and has shown, inconsistently, that he can be a ball player? Rebuilding has just begun fellas.

I think there must be something teams know that we dont about Sessions, does he have some sort of ego problem or attitude situation perhaps?

Strange that it took him so long to get picked up.

And to follow that up, from what I’ve seen (watching, box score watching, game thread lurking), Stuckey hasn’t been scoring efficiently but is more or less getting the job done. The consensus seems to be that if he could finish with any level of consistency (which he managed to do down the stretch in the Cleveland game) he would be close to unstoppable. You don’t punt on a guy like that this early in his career.

philly passing on sessions was actually a display of genius foresight on their part. now they the money to pay allen iverson.

If you ask me, I say trade MFWB and won’tcox for Sessions. I vividly remember the game where Sessions had a coming out party for 44 on only 18 shot attempts. Will Bynum is what he is, and 3 years from now when this team will be legit, he’ll be on the decline. Lets face it, his skills are based purely off athleticism and a decent 15 foot jumper.

3 years from now, just imagine a starting backcourt of Sessions and Stuckey, with Gordon and Rip coming off the bench (Gordon would slide to the 1). Sessions is actually fairly big for a point guard, so you’d have a lot of size, not to mention tons of scoring and ball handling ability. Not a revitalized Isiah and Dumars, but it would be a fairly close second.

I also think Stuckey isn’t getting enough love because of our high expectations. Yes his jumper and defense have greatly improved, but I think he’s also done some other minor things. For one, he seems to want to lead this team now, instead of cower in the back. He’s not as vocal as I’d like, but he is leading by example.

Secondly, lets not forget moving without the ball. Watch Stuckey when he hands the ball off, he’ll get a screen from CV or Ben and cut across the court. This way he gets to shoot easy 16 footers off the curl, and quite frankly he’s making a lot of them. It seems to be that with Stuckey, lack of previous coaching is his problem, not work ethic or desire. Just look at his ft%, and in fact these past games he’s averaging 19 and 5 on 40% shooting and that is including the zero assist game on top of his horrid Phoenix start.

Give the dude some credit, people went out and he’s stepped up. In the last 3 games he’s averaging 23 points on 44% shooting, so at the very least he’s adapting.

Lets not forget that Sessions was learning from Scott Sciles, the man who holds the record for most assits in a single game. I wager that by the all star break, Stuckey will be averaging 7 assists (assuming people are healthy). Kuester has been spending a lot of tape time with Stuckey, and if he could just get him to kick out of his drives, he’d be easily averaging 9 assists purely because of how many double and triple teams he draws.

*now they have the money to pay allen iverson i mean.

I don’t know enough about Sessions to have an opinion. But Stuckey has gotten a raw deal for most of his time here. On any given night he’s been on the floor with rookies who may not have plays drawn up for them. thus they dont have the green light to shoot.

A big with very limited offense (BW) who is perfectly fine with not having to score at all. Another Big that has been dubbed “Cake Hands” anytime he is thrown a pass it looks like he’s doing the macarena trying to catch the ball. Max? a slight upgrade but not very consistent while attempting any shot.

Last year MCIAFI was his excuse. this year Rip has been out. and any other player that he’s on the floor with is a point gaurd of some fashion. So he still gets a break in my book. but yeah, if he could do that damn finger roll… Oh yeah lets not forget CV, who for much of this young season wore the name “Chunky Charlie”. notice though when CV has a good game Stuck tends to have an all around better game as well. Outside of his finishing ability, I think his lack of “breaking through” is more the personnel around him then anything else.

@bmr:
If you ask me, I say trade MFWB and won’tcox for Sessions.

Problem is, Minnesota won’t take MFWB and wontcox. They need a shooting guard, and they don’t necessarily need outside shooting— hence Stuck being what they’re looking for, not MFWB.

CV still bears the name “Chunky Charlie.” He’s been playing well recently, but he remains a porker.

bmr, I agree w/ everything you said except this.

“Will Bynum is what he is, and 3 years from now when this team will be legit, he’ll be on the decline. Lets face it, his skills are based purely off athleticism and a decent 15 foot jumper.”

Out of all positions the pg’s game seems to age the best. simply put, I think bynum will be a potent back up for a good 5-10 yrs. I like your trade proposal with him and cox. but we otherwise would have to be extremely careful with MFWB.

the last time we had such a good 1,2 at pg was when Chaunce was here. before that… prolly’ the Bad Boy days. MFWB can play well into mid 30s and he may develop some range w/ age.

Point guards that get better are the ones who didn’t have a good understanding of the game when they were drafted and have a very good outside shot, such as Chauncey, or even Jason Williams for that matter. Bynum already has a very good understanding of how to get people involved, and he knows how to read the defense already. Seeing how he scores the majority of his points by driving it to the rack, he’ll be declining much earlier than most. Ariza is seen as an exception in that he developed a 3 point shot in mid career, and he’s younger than Bynum.

Ariza is seen as an exception…

Huh?

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/stats?playerId=2426
Ariza went from vitually no outside shot to shooting I believe 50% from 3 in the playoffs. Thus he is considered a rare exception by many analysts because most players that have 3 point range already had good outside shot coming out of college. I think you could also put Afflalo in this category, he’s shooting 40+% from downtown right now. But in all fairness Ariza has a lot more workload put on his shoulders.

@PS:
Just look at Shaq’s 3-pointer— he didn’t have that when he started as a point guard.

the avg. career of a point gaurd is 13 yrs, and most of the guys on that list were starters for most if not all of their careers, Stockton, Magic, Zeke, Cousy, Jackson. feel free to add to this list. But these are just the top ones who started their whole careers and played far more games due to playoffs. add in the lax rules of those eras and it makes Bynums workload look like a cakewalk.

If Bynum spent his career here coming off the bench he could realisticly play till age 35. Not to mention he has the best trainer/doctor in Kander/Abdenhour.

Ariza’s back will break like Tayes from playing point. Lol!

That comes from all of that hunched over dribbling.

damn! the Bucks and Bulls have a helluva dog fight goin’ on.

Tay while he is dribbling has the posture of gollum.

Bench or not, Bynum is playing starters minutes, and that’s what counts. Not where they come from

career wise, he does’nt. this year due to injuries, he does.

I’m with MP, I’ve been wanting Sessions for a while now and I’d take him over Stuckey. Honestly, I think a move would be beneficial to both teams: Stuckey appears to be more of a SG than a PG, a position of need for the T’Wolves, and we get a guy who’s closer to the true PG we need.

Honestly, it’s win-win.

I find the hair net rather ironic.

I think JOD likes Stuckey’s potential too much too move him and still has too many problems with the front court too think about it.Ben Wallace is playing like a beast right now, but he’s 35 and might retire after this yr.I for one hope JOD focuses his attention on the front court if he’s gonna make any trades.If that means trading one of our guards and some throw in’s for a Boozer or Gortat I wouldn’t have a problem with that.

Just saw the link about Mike Brown benching Big Z on the night he was going to set the record for most games played by a Cav. What a fucking asshole. Big Z is the best big man on that roster. Yes, better than Shaq at this point. He can shoot the J, which, when paired with LBJ, he needs to be able to do. Even if he sucks (which he doesn’t), you have to play him on a night he brought his entire fucking family. I think I can speak for us all here at DBB when I say: Mike Brown, go burn in fucking hell, and take Vara-ho with you.

Also on the Big Z situtation: He’s the only Cav or Celtic I actually like. Why? Because he is a professional. He gave up his starting spot for Shaq, and didn’t say anything bad about it. He is one of the nicest guy’s in the league, and deserves so much more. MBIAFI.

I think there’s a lack of Stuckey love because his game is just so damn ugly. His offense is not pretty. He doesn’t make very many highlight reel plays, and he doesn’t seem to make very many simple-but-effective plays, either. He forces stuff, and sometimes it works, but it’s frustrating to watch as a fan of the game. And for Detroit fans to say his game is ugly says a lot because we’re used to some pretty ugly grind-it-out basketball. But he can get better with experience and by learning from the vets.

@Cody: I have never understood why people rate Mike Brown so high as a coach, where he has always been a claimer IMHO. I mean, guy is like a poor man’s Flip Saunders.

Gotta go with you on that one, it was pretty douchey to do that to Z.

Why couldn’t he just play z for 15 secs and then just pull him? Whats the harm?

Yo kiss my ass Mike Brown. California Raisin lookin motherfucka

Z does deserve better treatment. in a game which was almost a blow out, he cant get any time? On the bright side of things he will retire at season’s end. and Bron will leave out of frustration. He and Z are best friends on the team. If MB doesn’t go Bron is sure to.

“I think there’s a lack of Stuckey love because his game is just so damn ugly. His offense is not pretty. He doesn’t make very many highlight reel plays, and he doesn’t seem to make very many simple-but-effective plays, either. He forces stuff, and sometimes it works, but it’s frustrating to watch as a fan of the game. And for Detroit fans to say his game is ugly says a lot because we’re used to some pretty ugly grind-it-out basketball. But he can get better with experience and by learning from the vets.”

Special Olympics D-Wade. Worst finisher in the League. As I’ve said before, I’m not sure he knows what a “layup” is or how to execute one. He pretty much puts his head down, bull-rushes the basket, then hangs in the air, squares up, and shoots heavily contested jump shots from under a foot away. Mind-bogglingly terrible finishing skills.

Please don’t post some stats that say “he’s actually an okay finisher!”— he’s not. I watch the games. You all watch the games. Garrett’s right. Stuck’s game is a fucking hot mess.

+1 to Garrett’s ugly comment.

There are plenty of novel posts in this thread so I’ll try to keep this short.

1) Stuckey over Sessions
2) Stuckey’s ppg would be lower if Rip were healthy..although his assists would definitely be higher
3) My biggest issues with Stuckey is not his questionable drives to the lane or his slow development of the drive and kick game, but his inability to push the ball on the break and get into the offense early on in the shot clock.

We were supposed to be this fast-paced score in bunches team and yet we continue to play at a snails pace. With how well we’ve been rebounding, we should be getting plenty of opportunities to run the ball and yet we haven’t. While the coach determines the pace, the PG sets it and Stuckey has yet to show me that he can consistently operate in the fast break. I’d be interested to see where our fast break points come from as far as the player initiating the break. I’d be surprised to see Stuckey’s name above Bynum’s or Gordon’s and could even be as low as 4th on the team despite being our starting PG.

And in set offenses, Stuckey’s inability to initiate the offense early on in the shot clock is insanely aggrevating. Whether its a result of the sets being called, an inability to execute by the wingmen or Stuckey not being able to decide what to do with the ball early on, it’s an issue which is affecting this team’s offensive output and I’m sick and fucking tired of it.

Oh and for those of you concerned about Stuckey being a point guard vs. a shooting guard…why don’t we look at someone near and dear to our hearts…Mr. Big Shot himself.

Chauncey didn’t average more than 4 assists per game until his 4th season in the NBA when he averaged 5.5 assists per game with Minnesota.

For his career, Billups has averaged 15 ppg/5 apg. Stuckey this season is currently averaging 17/4. If Rip was on the floor, there is no doubt in my mind that Stuckey would be averaging at least an additional assist per game, if not more.

So while Stuckey needs to learn to make better decisions, he’s still young and poses much greater potential at the defensive end as a PG than someone like Ramon Sessions.