Pistons-Cavaliers Game Thread

Starting linup should be

Johnson (Good for 5 – 10 min) on Wallace
Sheed – On Lebron
Brown – on Z
Iverson
Stuckey

Prince and Rip should come off of the bench.

I’ll repeat Vescey’s rumor from a different thread:

Has Michael Curry lost control of the 25-20 Pistons and the respect of the players? Did he have it to lose? Numerous players didn’t much care for Flip Saunders. Now it’s more a lack of confidence in the rookie coach than a dislike of him, from what I’m told. "No confidence" is more like it, a veteran confided to a friend. "Psychologically we’ve lost confidence in him and I don’t know how you get that back." Biggest gripe from two veterans: They’re convinced Curry is being told who to play by Joe Dumars.

That’s definitely the vibe I get from the team on all counts.

When every single veteran player is continually mentioning a lack of chemistry…

the worst thing about this game being on ABC:

Stuart Scott sucks as the pre-game, halftime and post-game host.

I don’t know what happened to Stu since he started at ESPN. I used to like the guy. Now, all he does is jock the studs and give reach arounds to Dwyane Wade, LeCrabs, and Dwight Howard.

Boney, I particularly hate how after they do an “emotional” piece about the Celtics, Lakers or whoever, Stuart Scott always says something like, “I don’t know how you can’t be moved by that piece.”

“Um, Stu? I know how I can NOT be moved by that piece. How about… I fucking hate that team and all the players on it.”

Jon Barry needs to put his pants back on… the slobfest is absolutely ridiculous.

Let’s stop talking about ESPN. Has anybody seen the box score for the Magic-Raptors game? Calderon is 27 on the afternoon? The +/ numbers for the Raps starting lineup is tragic.

QD,

I like it when Stu tries to drop “hood lingo” on us and then he gives the definition…ie: “That LeBron dunk was bunk…” and then he gives what he feels the definition of bunk is while the highlight continues to run

he sucks

oops QD.. my bad

I meant “Buck” and not “Bunk”, my bad.

@ Mike: Sheed on Lebron? Please, please tell me you are kidding. If you aren’t, it’s going to be hard to take you seriously ever again.

@ Matt Watson:

I agree with your three keys for victory, but I would add one more. Limit Mo Williams scoring. Force him to put the ball on the floor, and don’t leave to help if you are guarding him. If we can keep LBJ on the perimeter as you suggested and limit Mo by forcing him to put the ball on the floor, we have a good chance to win.

god damn I hate the Cavaliers…I really fucking hate them

I hate Mark Jackson and Van Gundy. They have to be the worst duo ABC has ever had.

I don’t know if ABC could put more of a superstar “homer” broadcast team on this game. Any time LeBron dunks the ball today we’ll hear Mark Jackson go to break with his “signature” line:

LeBron says _________, get out of my way, I’ve got reservations at the rim"

Lebron on Stuckey?

I can’t wait until a dumb GM hires Mark Jackson to be his teams coach… The moment Jackson is hired, I’d bet every dollar I have and every one I could borrow that his team will fall apart. Outside of a never ending supply of cliches, he is totally clueless.

Stuckey getting respect already… LeBron guarding him to start the game

Nice look, Stuck.

with LBJ on Stuckey, we should have an advatnage with Tay.

I can’t believe how many empty seats are there right now.

bullshit flop by Mo… I really don’t like Mo, never have

and I don’t like Sasha either

I hate the Cavaliers… fuck Ben Wallace too

PUSH THE BALL

Mark Jackson, as much as I detest his commentary, might be right about AI.

Petey would be proud.

Defense looks good.

Why are they playing this old man, walk it up, rick carlisle type of ball?? Defense is not the problem…our offense stinks…even with all these scorers.

Jackson on AI: “…he should be used like an explosive offensive talent…”
What does that mean?

let’s give the AI fanbois something to salivate over:

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y103/umo/AllenIverson.jpg

I know Ben Wallace didn’t choose to go to the Cavs, but his being on the team should be viewed the same as LeBron signing in Detroit in 2010.

agreed. fuck the celts, cavs, and nba announcers.

it’s disrespectful “for what be’ve dun dus far dis year”…

since when is Wally S a PF?

the refs need to T up LeBron

AI just picked Tay twice.

The first foul on Johnson was a joke of a call

The second one was total BS

Granted Mo Williams got away with two moving picks.

So we’re all gonna sit here and act like we just didnt hear people in the Palace chant “MVP” when Lebron scored a couple of mins back in the game.

Lebron officially owns the Palace. Joe Dumars is rolling in his grave.

And no Rip yet?

To say nothing of when he was fouled and they called it a blocked shot.

I can’t believe how much LBJ cries about the refs.

Case in point: the play right before the break. The replay clearly showed that no one touched him; yet, he yelled and screamed.

If it were Sheed, Cleveland would be shooting FTs.

Gabe
Feb 1st, 2009 at 2:36 pm

I can’t wait until a dumb GM hires Mark Jackson to be his teams coach… The moment Jackson is hired, I’d bet every dollar I have and every one I could borrow that his team will fall apart. Outside of a never ending supply of cliches, he is totally clueless.
^^^^^^^^^
“Mama there goes that cap space”-Mark

Random thought: why does the word “pick” mean both a steal and a screen? Steal makes sense (“he picked his pocket”). But, why a screen.

I hate Michael Curry. He is the worst coach in the history of the organization.

At least, Curry told them to run more.

Ugh, I’ve had enough of Mark Jackson’s all-star game theories. As if Devin Harris should be penalized for not playing with LeBron James.

Link? :D

Did Jeff Van Gundy just call Flip Saunders a strong coach?

Amir’s offensive foul was one of the absolute worst calls I have ever seen. He jumped in the air, with both hands straight up, and with both hands pushed the rebound in. Somehow, the ref called him for pushing off. Maybe Amir has a third arm that I didn’t know about, but if not, how can you push off if both arms are straight up in the air?

Was that Sheed?

Mark Jackson: start Rip and AI, bring stuck off the bench…

What a total ass. We tried that… it failed.

That’s that Sheed I want

prophecy – “"Mama there goes that cap space"-Mark”

+1

Jeff Van Gundy and Flip Saunders are real good friends.

Scratch JVG off my coaches wish list.

lol@ Stuckey gaurding Lebron

JVG just said he would go small ball or bench Stuck.

LeBronze with the hook… Stuckey with the foul?

This is gonna be a hilarious lineup

Flip Saunders is a good coach. It is ridiculous to argue otherwise.

This game is definitely fixed.

The refs got their marching orders from Stern and they are following them to a tea.

lol@ “hot bod” by JVG

lol@ Lebron being so proud of blocking a man barely 6 foot. You see that look on his face?

Mike,

to a “tea”?

as long as it’s sweet tea, I don’t care how they follow it

How’d they win that quarter?

Garrett, here’s a link:

http://albaaa.altervista.org/watch.php?id=105

Pavlovic is the strangest player in the NBA. Sometimes he looks really good. Other times, he looks like he shouldn’t even be in the league.

Kevin Sawyer
Feb 1st, 2009 at 2:57 pm

Flip Saunders is a good coach. It is ridiculous to argue otherwise.

^^^^
Look I dont think he’s as bad as others make him out to be, but he’s not strong.

Yeah, Flip is a good coach and I’m actually pretty surprised he doesn’t have a job right now.

Thanks, PS!

Quick Darshan
Feb 1st, 2009 at 3:01 pm

Pavlovic is the strangest player in the NBA. Sometimes he looks really good. Other times, he looks like he shouldn’t even be in the league.
^^^^^^^
He’s so Euro…

Too bad you missed an interesting first quarter, Garrett.

“time after time”

Lets play a game: How many minutes will Curry play Sheed and Dice?

I predict:
Sheed- 40min:12sec, Dice- 39min:33sec

Flip WAS a good coach. It’s not his fault the highest paid player on the team didn’t show up in the ECF last year.

I caught the last minute or two, but nothing really exciting happened. I will say that LeBron has been blocking a lot of shots from behind this year, which is great to see because he’s such an athletic freak.

I wish someone from ABC would do some research and then inform JVG and MJ that we tried starting Rip and AI…. and that failed just as bad as everything else has so far.

it sucks I can’t watch the game I’m just about to start my day at work today. God I hate my job at this moment :-) I’ll just follow the game thru your comments

McDyess just nailed Varajao with an elbow fighting for a rebound!

Varejao deserved it

Thank you Mcdyess!!!

Nice shot by McDyess on the Brazilian

Sideshow got checked

The downside of being a known flopper.
No call when you get leveled for real.

Ha-Ha!

I remember seeing Dirk get hit in the mouth on NBC one afternoon and losing some teeth. I’m still mildly traumatized by it.

ESPN loves Iverson and hates the rest of the Pistons.

What do you expect from the Celtics National Network

That makes up for Lebron elbowing Tay in the mouth.

That’ll teach Varajao to flop.

Wally world just schooled AA. wow… so much for a defensive stopper.

Im reading that Lebron soundclip as he didnt respect or knew his teammates before lol

Nice Ivey

I hate how one of the media’s talking points for the Cavs is their team chemistry, how all of them get up off the bench when someone gets hurt. They played a few weeks ago and Delonte West went down, and the commentators said the same things and showed the same footage.

Wally got away with a pushoff, brgulker.

They make it sound like having team chemistry is such a new and unique idea!

I can’t believe how bad this broadcast is.

This is the worst duo I’ve ever heard…

What I wouldn’t give for Kelser and Blaha right now… and that’s saying a lot, coming from me.

Ugh, Mason is still on this “Allen THE IIIIIIIIIIIIIIverson” thing? That’s really irritating.

Irony: Ben Wallace fouls Max, who then misses two free throws.

lol@JVG imitating Eastwood and the JMax-Ben snap

If there are two people who enjoy the post-NBA life as analysts its JVG and C-Webb.

JVG is defending Max pushing Perk! I knew I liked that guy.

Tough shot Rip

Afflaflallfllo is getting lit up by some tough shots. Who ever he’s guarding, no matter how good of D he’s playing (and he’s playing well), they’re hitting their shots. Tough day.

Someone should let these guys know that there is a game going on now. Not just footage from a past game.

It didn’t amount to much, but I loved the energy that Maxiell and Afflalo just brought.

Why did Max get the tech? My feed lagged and I missed it.

Not a very organized set the last few trips

Hey, JVG and Jackson, we’re playing AI and Rip together right now and getting our asses kicked with them on the floor together.

Max got a tech for tossin’ a ball after committing a foul on Ben Wallace

he threw the ball away after the foul call

Rip was fouled by Lebron on that last play.

Call a foul on Lebron against the Pistons in a close game?

Are you kidding me. No way Jose.

ANYTHING IS POSSIBLEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Hey, JVG and Jackson, we’re playing AI and Rip together right now and getting our asses kicked with them on the floor together.>>

Its too bad, Johnson was finally playing a good game but Stern’s minions made fast work of that nosense and their went the Pistons defense.

Man, tough break for Andrew Bynum getting hurt AGAIN.

Yeah, Rip got fouled on that play. That’s a 4pt swing.

Ha! LeBron looked offended that we gave him that three, but whatever — he can shoot that shot all game and I’ll be happy.

Time to heat it up Roscoe

Wow, it’s been too long since i have seen Sheed with his back to the basket

AMAZING flop by Iverson to draw that foul on LeBron. Wow.

That was a bailout for Bubbachuck lol

Not a foul but LULz Lebron reaction

Mark Jackson keeps sounding dumber and dumber…

Wow this pistons team is playing fairly decent against the cavs….

Rip’s looking nice and active.

Garrett, I’ve said this 1,000 times probably, but I’ve had Bynum’s injury. I actually slipped on a patch of ice coming out of the movies last night. I just slipped a little and my knee came right back out and I’m in a ton of pain today. Bynum’s a really talented guy, but I’d bet every last cent I have that he battles problems in the same knee for the rest of his career. It’s a shame, really. It’s a hard thing to recover from.

awwww@ the dude rocking the Chauncey

:(

lol yeah pp

Reminds you of the good old days

Other Matt, I was watching the Laker game, I think it’s the opposite knee this time. This wasn’t aggravating the old injury. He sounded pretty positive after the game.

Friday the 13th looks awesome

so much more awesomer than when they came out when I was younger

yeah Other Matt, it was the other knee

keep id dowing deep detting dops ball 5 guys bebound

Curry: “Keep going… keep going… keep getting stops…”
players ignore him and walk onto the court
Curry: “C’mon guys… keep going… let’s do some stuff…”

Nice to see Curry broke out the checkered beauty for ABC.

Joe sending more texts…

JVG thinks we’re underachieving! He thinks we have the talent and could be right back at the top of the pack! Did he put in his resume…?

Stuckey has to make them pay for putting Wally on him.

Smallball again….

Besides that airball from Rip, we’re running some good stuff and getting some stuff out there. Nice 15-2 run or whatever it is we’re on.

It’s not small ball when Sheed and Dyess are out there.

I stand corrected. I’d still bet that he re-aggravates that original injury again. I really hope he doesn’t. I’m probably talking out my ass anyway, but that’s a gnarly injury.

Having Rip has our main 3-point shooter just isn’t doing it for me. I know he’s improved and all, but I cringe every time he shoots one. I’d rather him shoot his mid-range J’s.

Good half.

Hamilton shot that last shot like he was scared it was going to get blocked.

LeBronze shooting a very AI-esque 5-12 from the field in the first half… nice

Wow, never seen Rip out of breath before.

We just held a team that averages 100 points plus per game and 47.6% shooting to 39 points in a half on 34.2% shooting … Are we a defensive team?

QD, I thought the same thing. That was weird.

Good first half overall all things considered but that switch putting in Bynum in really annoyed me and you saw the result of it with that 3-point play by lebron

@LawyerBoy,

I keep telling everyone our defense is not the problem. The only reason it looks bad at times is because our offense sucks so bad that we are playing catch up, which makes you have to get stop 99% of the time.

Our offense is clearly the problem. They need to stop worrying about who is getting shots and just play.

Other Matt,

3 guards = smallball right?

Did Stern just have the audacity to compare himself to Obama?

Oops, not Other Matt, QD

smallball = tayshaun playing power forward

Granges, the only guy in that lineup playing out of position was Rip. He’s not terribly undersized for a SF, plus he was going to be guarding Lebron anyway.

Dom: I’m all about it. Maybe it really is taking time. First with the defense, now with the offense. It certainly took time for AI to learn how to play team defense, but I refuse to believe he isn’t playing good defense these days.

Granges: To echo others, our true SGs (Rip and Afflalo) are big enough to play SF without an uncomfortable drop-off in size. It’s not the best, but it’s barely a stretch. It’s all about Tay at the 3 or 4. Tay at the 4 has had awful consequences.

What happened to Tay? Is he still in?

Thanks guys, now I know the smallball term.

Bullshit call

AI heating up?

Iverson heats up
Rip Heats up
Boney cries

…and just like that Boney is redeemed lol

That’s the way you run the floor, Amir!

Even Amir is in on the party!

Great D by Stuck on Lebron. Forces a turnover.

lol@ Stuckey literally jumping up and down screaming Im open

lol@ that being a goal tend

I’m not crying, I want what’s best for the team

- Rip to start
- AI to be in Sacramento
- Brad Miller to start and John Salmons coming off the bench

Exactly what I thought PP.

Stuckey was open for how long?

uh oh….

God dammitt he’s channeling 2007….

Nice Amir!

Amir is playing like a man today

This is how Amir needs to play ALL THE TIME.

LawyerBoy hates it when Amir plays up to his potential

Amir is looking like Tyson Chandler. Finally. Way to play around the hoop!

RUN RUN RUN!!!

AMIR JOHNSON FLUSHES IT

LIKE AMAN

MOMMA THERE GOES THAT MAN

Wow Amir lol

I want a “Momma there goes that man!” T-shirt with Amir’s mug on the front.

Great activity from Amir! I don’t even mind that offensive foul because it wasn’t stupid. He already got the first offensive rebound and then they called him trying to get the second. Good hustle.

T him up

lol@ Iverson pulling a Commissioner Gordon smirk

Why so Serious AI?

I show up at the end of the 3rd quarter and I’ve missed Amir’s coming out party? wtf.

VINTAGE Iverson to close out the quarter!

Oh shit, AI cupping the ear to the crowd, he’s bouncing baby, its like Philly in 2001 all over again lol

damn, a whole quarter of Amir on the court and not a negative peep out of Mike or LawyerBoy?

how about a positive one for ai out of ur mouth boney ;)

Uhm thanks for the 2004 Finals memory with that outgoing montage ABC I guess?

“This is how Amir needs to play ALL THE TIME.”

Sayin.

A Finals promo with Billups and Ben in Pistons jerseys? Really ABC? That’s messed up.

Mike’ll be waving that Amir banner again…

That was one of the more enjoyable quarters we’ve played this season.

Very nice quarter by Johnson, but the fact is that he has had it easy having to guard Wallace and AV not exactly offensive threats.

Yes! The return of Wipeout! Possibly one of the best shows ever.

ai and amir haters come out now

@Mike:
I liked you better when you were Phil Saunders.

AI had a solid quarter, kept the team in it

but Stuckey had a good quarter, Amir had a quarter to remember… solid play by all

shave another star in your head Boobie

Dammitt AI is fucking up his defensive assignment.

AI, this is Boobie Gibson. All he can do is shoot 3’s, so don’t let him, okay?

Yes, Amir. Boney, did he read the pamphlet?

Minor nitpick: AI and Rip together allowed a Cavs run in the first half. It’s about to happen again.

Who’s guarding boobie gibson? Oh… nevermind.

Wow, that was the worst 90 seconds of individual defensive basketball I have seen.

I can’t believe Curry took Stuckey out.

Good analysis from JVG: Curry needs to get rid of the extraneous minutes for Afflalo and give them to the better player (Rip). Why 6 minutes for a guy? What’s he going to give you in 6 minutes?

And just like that…

Actually, AI has been playing good defense from the 2nd quarter on.

Iverson can’t guard a jump shooting guard at all.

Its a midget against a NBA player

i agree quick but these 90 seconds were horrible..

biggest fucking thumbs down ever to Curry for taking out Stuckey instead of AI…

We were fantastic with Amir and Stuckey on the floor. Why bring in Dyess for Amir and Rip for Stuckey? AI and Stuckey were rolling and Amir was giving us excellent energy. If there was ever a time for smallball, wasn’t the beginning of the 4th it? Especially with the Cavs playing 4 on 5 on offense.

“Actually, AI has been playing good defense from the 2nd quarter on.”

Until the start of the 4th, where he almost single-handedly gave up our lead.

And just like that, Stuckey is back in the game and has drawn a foul. Good stuff.

Not that I’m advocating smallball or anything. I’m just saying if we’re going to use it, can’t we at least be smart about it?

Damn the team is choking and Lebron isnt even on the floor…what a waste

Also, why do we keep closing out on Z from 22 feet? That’s WAY out of his range and he’s like 3-452 today.

Looks like Stuckey is hurt.

well, now we’re screwed…

15-2 run after I started watching. Maybe I should shut it off and go do something else? I’m like Pistons Kryptonite, apparently. Pystonite.

Stuckey is def. limping. AI coming back…

that was a good start to the fourth. give lebron rest and bring back the boobie memories. fuck this.

This is not an afternoon of magic.

This run started with Rip and AI in the backcourt together.

It just doesn’t work… how many more examples of it do we need?

Either play Stuck and AI; stuck and Rip; or Stuck, AI, and Rip at 3.

It’s either/or. Either AI or Rip.

Grow a pair, MC.

This team finds new and creative to dissapoint you. And Stuckey is hobbling,so AI is coming in and we got Rip and AI on the same floor now.

Curry is so damn stubborn.

There’s a little too much nit-picking at rotations. The rotations are fine (in this game). At some point, the players on the court need to perform.

Look at this mess. Game over.

“Actually, AI has been playing good defense from the 2nd quarter on.”

Doesn’t matter. When you tune out completely for 90 seconds like that, you might as well have played mediocre defense the whole game.

That said, Joe D. fired a far superior coach solely for a lapse like the one we are experiencing now. Apparently, the key to keeping your coaching job with the Pistons is to make sure this is par for the course.

AI has heart. This team is a rollercoaster

JVG says, “You have to know, going into the last 4 minutes, who you’re playing and what you’re running.” I don’t think Curry knows.

Weren’t Rip and AI the starters for our first win against Cleveland, not to mention our win at the Lakers? How short are our memories?

Garrett, I don’t know either. There’s a lot of good players on this team.

QD: Yeah, we have a lot of talent for sure. I think Curry’s original theory was that he’d ride the hot hand.

Cant defend god dammitt

DAMMIT

Dagger

this is the super bowl for me

Damn, LeBron. What you got to be so good?

*Why

Worst. Game. Ever.

We can’t score consistently…esp from our frontcourt. Expect a trade.

bullshit prophecy

“AI has heart. This team is a rollercoaster”

and love is a battlefield.

take a look at cleveland’s +/-. james is -11… wiliams e.g. is +17

What a shame! James’ 3 WAS the dagger!

MP, who do you think you are, some kind of philosophizer?

brick

Another low impact game from Sheed.

Nothing like a Sheed 3 after a Curry timeout. Jeeze.

sheed why.. why???? i hate these threes!

Curry definitely got out coached in the 4th quarter.

Way too many open shots for the Cavs.

So far 7-14 today on 3s

Kian
Feb 1st, 2009 at 4:47 pm

bullshit prophecy
^^^^^^^^^
Yes it is. When you stay competitive with a title contender only to blow a decent lead while there best player is off the floor, its worst than a 20 point blowout. Way more heartbreaking.

lollersk8z @ Sheed trying to guard LeBron. He definitely got away with the body there.

Curry needs to experiment with putting Max and Amir out there together. If our bigs can’t post up, at least we can have them run.

Way too much Iverson today

Welp… another sad sad game.

Wow, they just gave up

ok i shut off the tv. how can i get free of this fucking curse?

I really hope Stuckey’s okay.

Nuts to this. I’m watching GSP vs. BJ Penn.
http://www.justin.tv/boxingtv2009

This is embaressing

“MP, who do you think you are, some kind of philosophizer?”

Only burp when I drink early on a Sunday. Like sands of the hourglass, MCIAFI.

We where a totally different team when stuck and amir were not in

If Johnson has the fouls to give he should be out there in the 4th quarter.

czm: Yeah, we looked old and slow. Kind of like Sheed. Ugh.

Mike
Feb 1st, 2009 at 4:52 pm

Way too much Iverson today
^^^^^^^
Yeah but he did play with heart today. Just a bad defensive laspe today as well. Really bad when you’re good and bad. sigh….

I love Dyess, but Amir and Max should have seen some 4th quarter action.

Max only got in the game once, again, unexplainable.

All of us know that this season is in trouble. We keep playing like this, and we miss the playoffs, or we finish in 6-8 and lose in the first round to Boston/ORlando/Cleveland

But, what’s even scarier is when you consider what this team will look like a year from now.

Forget championship. Hope for .500.

Going into the season, we expected the franchise to change… but we didn’t expect it to fall apart at the seams. This season is as good as over, no doubt about it anymore. This experiment didn’t work. Joe D gambled and lost… But it only gets worse to think about the future.

By the time 2010 rolls around, we simply won’t have anything left. We’ll have plenty of money, but no roster to attract one of the marquis players seeking a title.

IT’s a rough time to be a Pistons fan.

MP, any chance you’re available to be drunk and coaching the Pistons?

This game was a real back-breaker from my perspective. I know that these kind of late game breakdowns have been occurring for a few years, but holy shit it was never like this. I know that this group largely marches to the beat of their own drummer, but maybe just maybe the fact that Flip was a good coach prevented this sudden decline. Or maybe it was the fact that we traded our best player. I don’t know. I’m depressed. Before today I thought we could at least be interesting come playoff time. After this game, I don’t think we could win more than 1 game against either Cleveland or Boston in a 7 game series.

Dyess might as well start if Curry is not going to play Amir even when he has a good game and hardly any fouls. With Dyess and Sheed on the court, you have to jumpshooting bigs. Brilliant.

the fact is that curry should be fired and a replacement chosen. a veteran with a winning record. jeff van gundy? it won’t happen because there is an unwritten law that new coaches receive at least a year no matter how disastrous. plus dumars is personally invested in curry. what is this? the ninth loss in ten games? its bad.

our offense is best when we are pushing the ball up. I think rip should post up more. with his height and shot he can get some easy baskets without the whole team trying to set screens for him

This is why I dont know if you blame AI 100%. Cause he did keep us in the game. Ultimatley the defensive lapses were not just Iverson but Sheed and the others. Its a team problem. And they all panicked on the offense in the 4th. I guess Chauncey’s value outweighs AI’s scoring value. Still love both players but damn, damn, damn © KG circa 2003

AI < Stuck and Rip

That is the straight up truth. I’ll be the hater and say it again and again. AI fucking killed us in the 4th quarter. Every person he guarded scored like he wasn’t even there.

Amir and Stuck were major keys to our defense in the first three quarters. Without either of them for almost the entire 4th quarter=total collapse.

@Other Matt:
“MP, any chance you’re available to be drunk and coaching the Pistons?”

All I need is a keg of Birra Moretti, twin brunette assistants with low IQ’s and low self esteem, a clipboard and a tazer, I’m good to go.

(the tazer is just in case)

7-0 when Dice scores in double figs. If he’s gonna keep shooting like he did today, we’re gonna lose.

brgulker
Feb 1st, 2009 at 4:58 pm

I love Dyess, but Amir and Max should have seen some 4th quarter action.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Yeah but this is the one time where I dont blame Curry for not putting them in. That lineup without them had momentum and I guess he felt like it could still be in it in the 4th. I mean they REALLY fell apart at the end of the 4th, but even with ther 90 second Defense lapse at the start, I would have kept that offensive lineup. He did have Amir in there. I dunno maybe you could have put them in but with certian lineups it all depends on how manage them.

Man, this is a tough loss. Classic Iverson game. He got 22 points on 19 shots. Not bad. At times he was dominant, like when we were running a motion offense in the third quarter and he was getting into the lane at will. But when you are a guard dominating the ball for 44 minutes, you just can’t have a 1:5 ast:to ratio. And the defensive lapse to start the fourth Q was terrible. He both giveth and taketh an awful lot.

Hope Stuckey is ok.

Lol @ Curry for 4 Maxiell minutes after he was a straight up monster against Boston. Amir was terrific and definitely deserved all his burn. But Rasheed getting 40 minutes? There is no way Rasheed’s 30th-40th minutes are better than Maxiell’s 5th to 15th. Didn’t we get him hurt like this also?

Last thought: though I pretty strongly disagree with many of Jackson and JVG’s assessments of what Curry should or should not do, have you ever seen an announcing crew fillet a coach like this? They just seem to assume he’s incompetent, which is interesting, since you usually see announcers defending coaches…

adsflajahg diaof adlkfad ihat eclev ela nd.

All I need is a keg of Birra Moretti, twin brunette assistants with low IQ’s and low self esteem, a clipboard and a tazer, I’m good to go.

MP, you sound like the great Al Bundy:

Hooters, hooters
Yum yum yum
Hooters, hooters
On a girl that’s dumb

Mediocrity, thy name is Pistons.

Gabe
Feb 1st, 2009 at 5:01 pm

AI < Stuck and Rip

That is the straight up truth. I’ll be the hater and say it again and again. AI fucking killed us in the 4th quarter. Every person he guarded scored like he wasn’t even there.

Amir and Stuck were major keys to our defense in the first three quarters. Without either of them for almost the entire 4th quarter=total collapse.
^^^^^^^^^^
True but Stuckey was hobbled in the 4th so he had to go out.

I am not giving up on this year yet. unfortunately we have to count on curry being able to put all the pieces together correctly. I think it can be done …. I just don’t think he can do it

@PS:
looks up for a second, goes back to motorboating

MP – you motorboating son of a bitch

MP, I enjoy Birra Moretti, but I think this situation calls for an Aventinus.

I cant emphasis how heartbreaking this loss was compared to all the others. It really felt like AI, Amir and Rip came to play and prove something against a contender and I was thinking to myself in the 3rd “Wow Im proud of this team. You know maybe its a case of matchups and in the playoffs if we face these guys or Orlando in the first, we might sneak an upset with this kinda heart”

and then just like that…the 4th qtr was like a out of nowhere knockout. That was just a fast 4th qtr, I cant process it lol.

@Forty:
I’m just doing what’s right for the team…

*Emphasize enough

@PP- yeah, I guess we gotta cross our fingers for Stuck… Otherwise, this season can be pretty much flushed down the toilet.

“Weren’t Rip and AI the starters for our first win against Cleveland, not to mention our win at the Lakers? How short are our memories?”
-Lawyerboy

I think they were also the starters when we lost by 26 at home to the Wolves :(

@ p_p,

What’s so frustrating about this is Curry’s mis-management of the roster. When the lineup with Stuckey and Amir are playing well, it keeps Dyess and Rip glued to the bench. Those guys don’t “deserve” to stay on the bench for that long, but it kills our momentum and mojo and everything we were doing right to have to totally change the way we’re playing and put them in to start the 4th.

Now that I’ve re-read what I just typed, I’m not sure that there’s a right way to handle the situation. Curry’s in an impossible situation. Maybe we should go with Stuckey, Rip, Tay, Sheed, and Dyess starting and recreate the Zoo crew with AI running the show with Max, Amir, Afflalo and Herrmann? I don’t know what we should do. The only thing I know is what we’re doing now isn’t working.

I actually haven’t been that bummed by our recent losses. We have played hard in all of them. I think we have looked like we belong on the same court as some very good teams. That came as a surprise to me. I guess it all depends on your expectations going in. I’ve thought we weren’t a contender for months…so I kind of enjoy the idea that we might give someone a scare in the first or second round. I think we play Cleveland and Orlando pretty tough. Giving an elite team a scare is all Hawks fans hope for, and let’s face it, we’re roughly as good as the Hawks.

pp: I was proud and encouraged too, sheed ran out of gas we needed some baby eaters out there

OM – I’ve been squarely in the bring AI off the bench camp. But I do think there’s a cost to making a switch at this point. Don’t you think making another move like that risks the team going into a tailspin? Can’t you see us making the switch, going on a losing streak, Iverson pouting, players publicly questioning Curry, etc.? I agree that strategically it makes the most sense. I just think we’re not that far from a 2007-2008 Chicago-Bulls-style meltdown.

Forty, I don’t disagree at all. Like I said, it’s an impossible situation. This loss really bummed me out. I don’t know why I feel more bummed out than normal. I guess I’m just thinking out loud.

Forty, making a big switch would certainly be a risk—but maybe it depends on what the switch is.

I know that Peter Vecsey is more of a rumormonger than a journalist, but if this is true—“Biggest gripe from two veterans: They’re convinced Curry is being told who to play by Joe Dumars.”—I want to know which players Dumars is propping up. In this case a big switch might give Curry a boost among the veterans (Prince? Wallace? McDyess? Hamilton?) who are convinced that he’s a puppet. One “good” thing that Flip did was to establish his independence (to some degree) from Dumars in setting his lineups and rotations.

Other Matt
Feb 1st, 2009 at 5:14 pm

@ p_p,

What’s so frustrating about this is Curry’s mis-management of the roster. When the lineup with Stuckey and Amir are playing well, it keeps Dyess and Rip glued to the bench. Those guys don’t "deserve" to stay on the bench for that long, but it kills our momentum and mojo and everything we were doing right to have to totally change the way we’re playing and put them in to start the 4th.

Now that I’ve re-read what I just typed, I’m not sure that there’s a right way to handle the situation. Curry’s in an impossible situation. Maybe we should go with Stuckey, Rip, Tay, Sheed, and Dyess starting and recreate the Zoo crew with AI running the show with Max, Amir, Afflalo and Herrmann? I don’t know what we should do. The only thing I know is what we’re doing now isn’t working.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I totally get what your saying and JVG touched on it a little. Even without Chauncey, this team is too talented to be playing the way they are and I know they are dilemas where it is tough to choose one set of players over there other and you cant obviously rotate too much if players are getting in a flow.
I’ve pretty much come to the conclusion that maybe Joe D didnt realise that this was a bit tricky for a rookie coach to handle. Not that they havent been obvious situations where some players should have played (ie Maxiell)

If I’m Michael Curry, unless Joe Dumars calls me on the phone and tells me to bench AI I wouldn’t do it. Can you imagine the career risk he’d be taking to bench the guy Dumars made a move for? Especially if he didn’t have Joe’s explicit consent? Imagine if he benches AI, we get bounced in the first round, and Joe fires him. When does he get his next head coaching gig? At least this way, I’m guessing he gets two years, and some sort of “plausible deniability” for the Pistons getting so much worse on his watch (gm made a big trade, team got old, east got better, etc.)

@forty, OM, ps:
I’m with you guys re: AI off the bench, have been since the beginning. However, I don’t feel its a risk to make a change now. As far as I’m concerned, it’s only too late to make lineup changes AFTER the trade deadline. If we’re open to making a trade, we should be open to changing our lineup accordingly.

@Forty:
“I’m guessing he gets two years, and some sort of "plausible deniability" for the Pistons getting so much worse on his watch”

or in Michael Curry speak, “pawsibo deniabiwity.”

/bebounds.

This is a perfect example of why Joe D. shouldn’t have traded Billups if he wanted to have a chance to get back to the ECF.

However, Joe D. read the scene correctly with now the Cavs, Magic and Celtics being the best in the EC so he dumped Billups for the cap space and decided to use this year to develop Stuckey, Johnson and Afflalo.

Hopefully the Pistons wind up in the lottery and get a good bounce of ping pong balls.

Not to be a contrarion, but the biggest problems with this team are not the following:
1. Curry
2. Iverson

They are problems to be sure, but the biggest problem is that the big men are either over the hill or too green.

The backcourt will eventually figure it out. There’s too much talent there not to. And if Curry doesn’t figure it out, it doesn’t matter because the frontline simply isn’t good enough to win it all anyway. I really don’t think any coach could win a championship with this team (get to the ECF maybe, but championship… no).

QD – I completely agree that no coach could win a title with this team. But if you think there are coaches who could get to the ECF, then I think when we get bounced in the first or second round, Curry has to take a lot of the heat, no?

And as for it being Iverson’s fault or not, I think that depends. Does a player’s being “at fault” come from deviation from his historical standards? Because if that’s the case, I agree with you: I don’t think that had Iverson been as good this season as he was the last three years, then we would have been a title contender. But I do think Iverson being not nearly as good as the guy we traded away is hurting us. Is that his “fault?” Eh, I dunno. Is it Walter Herrmann’s fault that he’s not an All-Star caliber player?

I just think the implicit Billups comparison is what a lot of people mean when they say “it’s AI’s fault.”

The cold truth is the Cavs started the 4th quarter with confidence on the road, behind, with LeBron on the bench. The Pistons had no clue what to do in the 4th quarter, at home. The players didn’t know who would be in the game or their roles. Curry used the veterans as a crutch, again, and Mike Brown trusted his entire TEAM. We all saw the results.

I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again:

Does Iverson think the Pistons would win more if he had the ball as much as he did in that quarter?

“Don’t do that to me. You’re opening up a can of worms,” Iverson said, playfully. “But I trust the way everything is going. I don’t have a choice. What I say don’t matter.”

Play Iverson fewer minutes, and give him the ball early in shot clock on a higher percentage of the plays when he is on the floor.

This really isn’t rocket science.

Iverson is waaaay past the age where he can play 44mpg (as he did this afternoon) and be effective against high level competition in the fourth quarter. I knew at the break between the third and fourth quarters that he was about to flatline. (Maybe the Pistons should assign an assistant to spend a couple of days watching film of Iverson games from the past few years so they’d have a feel for these things…)

Do you see Phil Jackson playing Kobe 44mpg? (And Kobe is still a youngster.) Do you see Terry Porter playing Steve Nash 44mpg? There’s a reason for that.

We’ve got depth in the backcourt. This isn’t necessary. Keep Iverson fresh for late in the ballgame.

“I just think the implicit Billups comparison is what a lot of people mean when they say "it’s AI’s fault.”

Y’know, a fair part of the problem is that the front office has decided to severely limit the amount of point Iverson plays, and they’ve made that decision contrary to what would be in the team’s best interests this year.

The roster we have is a challenge, but it’s a challenge with a lot upside if it were being smartly managed to win this year. However, it’s not being managed that way.

@Petey:
“Play Iverson fewer minutes, and give him the ball early in shot clock on a higher percentage of the plays when he is on the floor.”

And you were staunchly against bringing AI off the bench, where we could easily make both of those things happen. Your logic is strong, your fanhood is clouding it.

“And you were staunchly against bringing AI off the bench”

No I wasn’t. I kept saying over and over again that were I the coach, I’d likely start him , but that it really didn’t matter. You don’t win or lose many games in the first six minutes.

And I’ll ask you again, Mike Payne, will you go drink a whisky at the Foxhead for me? I miss it badly.

@petey:
“No I wasn’t. I kept saying over and over again that were I the coach, I’d likely start him , but that it really didn’t matter.”

I misunderstood, don’t mean to misquote you. My bad.

“And I’ll ask you again, Mike Payne, will you go drink a whisky at the Foxhead for me? I miss it badly.”

You’ve lost me.

“You’ve lost me.”

For some reason, I think you are living in the City of the Hawkeye. The Foxhead is a bar in that town. It’s also the best bar in the world.

“And you were staunchly against bringing AI off the bench”

I’d start him, but give him a 5-6m break around the end of the 1st / start of the 2nd, and a 6-8m break around the end of the 3rd / start of the 4th.

I’d also play him more with Afflalo, of course.

My actual solution for this team is:

Iverson/Afflalo 16 mpg
Iverson/Stuckey 18 mpg
Stuckey/Hamilton 14 mpg

Add Hamilton backing up Prince at the ‘3′ for 10 to 12 mpg, and everyone is in the best position to succeed.

You can do that with Iverson starting or not. It just doesn’t matter.

@Petey:
“For some reason, I think you are living in the City of the Hawkeye. The Foxhead is a bar in that town. It’s also the best bar in the world.”

I am in the city of the Hawkeye for the next few months, until my wings spread and I fly southward. As for the Foxhead, I’m not familiar… (nor is my lady, who is a native) But if drinks are to be had, I will have them.

“As for the Foxhead, I’m not familiar… (nor is my lady, who is a native) But if drinks are to be had, I will have them.”

I’ve been all around the world, and as stated, I’d recommend it ahead of any other watering hole.

Your age, demographics, and tastes may vary…

Just looked it up— I ate lunch not 40 feet from the Foxhead yesterday, at the Oasis. I’ll pay a visit next weekend, thanks for the tip, Petey.

Umm, quick statement. Iverson has had a lot of energy since entering the league, He can play a 48 minute game and be ready to play another one. He was built like that.

Regardless of that though, when Stuckey went out of the game, who was taking the point guard duties?

EntityAbyss – Iverson is human like anybody else. If Curry asks him to spend 10% more energy on defense the energy has to come from someplace, not his magic belly full of fire and guts. AI is one of my favorite players but his special ability is to absorb punishment, not avoid fatigue, something that effects all living creatures.

34 year old Rasheed has gone 39, 40, 38, 41 mpg in the last 4 games.
33 year old Iverson has gone 34, 40, 43, 44 mpg in the last 4 games.

That’s so stupid and short sighted I can’t believe it.

Alright, and I’m not gonna argue about AI’s stamina. I’m just gonna hear no because of his age.

My question is, when Stuckey left, who took over the point guard duties?

http://basketball.realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/56945/20090201/pistons_have_no_confidence_in_curry/#

“QD – I completely agree that no coach could win a title with this team. But if you think there are coaches who could get to the ECF, then I think when we get bounced in the first or second round, Curry has to take a lot of the heat, no?”

Forty, I’m not saying Curry doesn’t deserve flack. I just think that the bigger problem is the lack of a big man. I’m not at all worried about the PG, SG and SF positions. I think the AIvRIP debate has distracted from the real problem with the team.

This team has become the Washington Wizards. Tons of great backcourt players, no elite big men.

@QD:
“This team has become the Washington Wizards. Tons of great backcourt players, no elite big men.”

cries all over my keyboard. cries because you’re right

There are rumors that Bosh wants out of Toronto so the Raptors may as well trade him rather than let him leave for nothing. Is Rip & Amir for Bosh a reasonable trade? The salaries work.

@QD- http://www.nba.com/games/20090201/CLEDET/boxscore.html

Our big men combined to outscore Cleveland’s 25 to 17, and our bigs tied theirs in combined rebounds 23 to 23, and kept Big Z in check- he shot 5 for 16.

By my math, all Cleveland’s “non-bigs” shot a combined 28 for 56, with 5 of 12 from 3 (over 40%).

The stats aren’t completely definitive, but they do seem to confirm what I felt like I saw with my own eyes- basically just from watching the game I absolutely did not get the feeling we lost because of a lack of big men. Our bigs either bested Cleveland’s frontcourt, or if you wanna be stingy with praise, they at least fought them to a draw.

Our frontcourt doesn’t have a great scorer, but when Curry plays it correctly, it is a very good defensive group, with strong offensive rebounding. But, by far the biggest strength of our frontcourt is depth, so pretending like Sheed (and to a lesser extent, Dice) is/are superstar level players, and playing either 40 minutes a night, is a quick path to mediocrity.

I’m sorry if this is a double post, I think my previous one got eaten :(

@QD- http://www.nba.com/games/20090201/CLEDET/boxscore.html

Our big men combined to outscore Cleveland’s 25 to 17, and our bigs tied theirs in combined rebounds 23 to 23, and kept Big Z in check- he shot 5 for 16.

By my math, all Cleveland’s “non-bigs” shot a combined 28 for 56, with 5 of 12 from 3 (over 40%).

The stats aren’t completely definitive, but they do seem to confirm what I felt like I saw with my own eyes- basically just from watching the game I absolutely did not get the feeling we lost because of a lack of big men. Our bigs either bested Cleveland’s frontcourt, or if you wanna be stingy with praise, they at least fought them to a draw.

Our frontcourt doesn’t have a great scorer, but when Curry plays it correctly, it is a very good defensive group, with strong offensive rebounding. But, by far the biggest strength of our frontcourt is depth, so pretending like Sheed (and to a lesser extent, Dice) is/are superstar level players, and playing either 40 minutes a night, is a quick path to mediocrity.

Good luck selling that to the Raptors. If this was 2009, maybe. But Bosh’s locked in until 2010. Raptors would be foolish to trade him before next season starts. Unless they would enjoy a nose dive in their season ticket sales for 2009.

Rip’s an All-Star SG. Amir is exciting. Teams rarely make even trades in terms of talent. You have to take into account contracts, timing, etc.. Maybe Detroit throws in a #1 pick? The rumors I saw (a Stephen A. Smith report I think) had Bosh going to Miami or Dallas. I’m not sure either of those teams has better talent to give up, unless Dallas is up for trading Dirk for Bosh.

You know what’s funny? Ilgauskas developing a 3 point shot at the age of 34. (2 for 3 yesterday)

Interesting +/- numbers from yesterday’s game, via ESPN’s Daily Dime:

Iverson & Stuckey & Hamilton
+10

Iverson & Stuckey / No Hamilton
+1

Stuckey & Hamilton / No Iverson
-4

Iverson & Hamilton / No Stuckey
-15

Now, you can’t get too excited about single game +/- numbers. For example, LeBron had the worst +/- on the Cavs yesterday. But they are useful info, when used while eyeballing the games.

But those numbers do work reasonably well with my proposed backcourt rotation upthread.

And let’s not forget, not just for a single game, but for the entire season, Iverson and Afflalo are +5 when on the court together…

Yahoo’s take on Maxiell

• F Jason Maxiell was whistled for his second technical in as many games Sunday. Maxiell, who whined about a foul call, played just five minutes and did not score or get a rebound.>>

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;ylt=AjeHrXY.KMsmzVh7cd3D4N80bYF?slug=teamreports-2009-nba-det&prov=sportsxchange&type=team_report

Maxiell a whiner? LOL

Any news on Stuckey’s possible injury?

Also, I just checked the league leaders in minutes played and Iverson is 9th at 38.3 minutes per game. Who plays more minutes than him? Mostly the young’uns:

Antawn Jamison – 38.4
Chris Bosh – 38.4
Andre Igoudala – 38.6
Caron Butler – 38.6
Chris Duhon – 39.2
Stephen Jackson – 39.4
Kevin Durant – 39.7
Joe Johnson – 40.1

Iverson is a machine and all, but c’mon. We’ve got some pretty good guards on our roster and AI is gettin’ too old for this.

Chris Bosh has told the Raptors he definitely won’t re-sign with them after 2010, and as a result he may be traded before the deadline.

The Pistons could trade Iverson for Bosh plus some irrelevant dude to make the salaries match. For instance:

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/features/traderesult?players=366~1977~2433&teams=28~8~8&te=&cash=

The Raptors might do this because Iverson’s contract is bigger than Bosh’s and expires sooner. They’d get more cap space, and they’d have an extra offseason in which to spend it. The Raps’ fans hate them right now. The team is in shambles. The atmosphere in that locker room is even worse than the dark cloud surrounding the Pistons. The sooner they pull the plug and start over, the better.

If Dumars can convince Colangelo to do this, I will gladly take back many of the evil thoughts I have had about him lately. The Pistons would once again have a balanced team—we would know for the first time this year what the starting and finishing lineups would be from game to game!—and they’d immediately contend again, even despite the constant drag of Curry’s incompetence.

Please, please, please, Dumars, do something brilliant. Trade for Bosh!

The Bosh news bits:

Stephen A. Smith of ESPN has reported that Chris Bosh has already informed GM Bryan Colangelo that he will not resign with the team in 2010. Bosh, who is averaging 23.1 points, 9.7 rebounds, and about a block a game, has proven to be one of the premier power forwards in the game. The Knicks Blog

Smith thinks that Bosh’s name will surface in trade rumors, and he mentions Miami and Dallas as possible teams that may look to trade for him. The Knicks Blog

http://hoopshype.com/rumors.htm

“Iverson is a machine and all, but c’mon.”

He’s not a machine. He’s an aging player who needs to have his minutes managed and to be put in the right situations to succeed.

He can take heavy minutes if you let him rest on defense. That’s not an option, so you need to play him an absolute MAXIMUM of 38 minutes in any one game if you want him to be fresh at the end of the fourth quarter.

If I were the coach, I’d average him 34mpg and give him the ball far more often early in the shot clock. When Iverson probes the defense with his dribble, gets them out of position, and drives to pass or score, good things happen. The problem is that he expends a LOT of energy doing that. Make the gameplan to have him do it more often, but give him lots of rest to let him do it effectively.

Keep the game close, let a rested Iverson attack in the final six to eight minutes, and you’ll win a lot more than you lose.

prays for that trade to happen

If I’m Colangelo, I can’t think of a better way to immediately turn that team around. Can you imagine having $22 million coming off the books this year from Iverson’s contract, then $23 million next year from O’Neal’s contract?

Plus, you’ve got a near-top-tier point guard in Calderon and a brilliant talent in Bargnani— add $45 million in expiring contracts and you’ve got a monster franchise on your hands. Scary.

Oh, and we get our future Piston Chris Bosh… :)

Ss it relates to Bosh, also don’t see who Mia or Dal is going to trade but expring contracts. Given AI’s is done this year and could put butts in the seats in Toronto for the remainder of the year, Colangelo probably has to do something. Certainly Mia or Dal don’t have expiring contracts all this year. Marion’s contract for Bosh? Who’s going to pay to see him rather than AI? J. Howard and pieces from Dal? Might as well take the cap space. Time for Joe D to become creative. Also, not sure, but would the Lakers try to get into this? Depending how Bynum’s MRI comes out, they can throw in Odom and some pieces if Jerry Buss wants to exceed the cap or have bosh for a 1 1/2 years and two titles.

Anyone who thinks Toronto is going to take expiring contracts for Bosh is kinda nuts. One of the reasons everyone is gunning for cap space in ’10 is that nobody is out there to be had in ’09.

I mean, if reality isn’t an obstacle, why not daydream about trading Will Bynum for Dwight Howard?

Pistons coach wonders about anonymous critics
Iverson should be Pistons sixth man
Pistons Iverson takes $50,000 in cash to casino?
Kwame an $8 mil Pistons bust?

Anybody wondering why we’re struggling? These areb;t the headlines we should be making. FYI These are from FoxSports Ben Maller’s NBA rumors for Monday morning.

And another:

Pistons Amir Johnson shows why he deserves to start

Another headline on swapping Amir for kwame in the line up. When was training camp?

My only fear is that since this was “Joe’s guy” that the struggles this year are focused on AI and not so much on Curry. So Curry is either a quick learner of he messes up next year as well. And with these kinds of rumors, why does a FA want to come to Det again? Or why would Bosh? He’s got enough of this in Tor already.

I don’t understand how us giving away assets to land Boozer, Bosh, Amare, or anyone else helps us re-sign them in 2010 (or 2009 in Boozer’s case). If they’re signing with Detroit, it’s because the Pistons are contenders. What’s the point giving away assets to land them a few months early? Are we more likely to sign Bosh in 2010 with an all star shooting guard or without an all star shooting guard? If you’re Chris Bosh, would you rather sign a team that started (a.) Stuck, Afflalo, Tay, you, and Amir/Max, or (b.) Stuck, Rip, Tay, you, and Amir/Max?

I’d rather have Bosh in a Pistons jersey from 2010-2017 than from 2009-2010.

If it’s one of our expiring contracts (AI, Sheed), them I’m fine with it. But I agree with Petey that there’s no way they’re moving Bosh for an expiring deal. Brand or Boozer are the only big men I think we could get just by offering cap space.*

I would do AI for Bosh in a second. I would do Rip for Bosh in a second. I would either Rip or AI plus other stuff (a bench big, a draft choice) in a second. The problem with this team is so frickin’ obvious: too many good guards, no big with a consistent post offense game. I don’t know if it’s realistic, since I’m not up on what Toronto might want, but I would investigate.

Second, as to MarkButter’s list of headlines, I’ve been wondering about Kwame too. What other team has an MLE who never plays? Maybe he doesn’t deserve to, but if so, that signing was a significant mistake on Joe D’s part.

I like Bosh’s game a lot. What is not to like.

Regarding Bosh or any other big man that the Pistons might acquire/sign I still think it call comes down to Dumars opinion of Johnson.

1. Is Joe D. going to keep Johnson after his contract expires in 2010 or will he let him go if not trade him before then?

2. If Dumars decides to keep Johnson where does he see Johnson fitting in in the future. People should remember that if Johnson had gone to LSU instead of signing with the Pistons he would be a Senior right now if he had stayed the four years.

So the upside in my opnion is still there if he is given the chance to play and on both offense and defense.

3. If Dumars see’s Johnson as a PF going forward or a Center (He is not as tall as Camby but his wieght right now is pretty close).

If Dumars sees Johnson as a starter in the Pistons future it has to be at the #4 or #5.

So there are really three questions regarding Johnson’s future with the Pistons that will in my opinion affect what Joe D. tries to do via trading for another big man or two and what position/s that person/s may play.

1. Is Johnson part of the Pistons future?
2. Does Duamrs see him as a starter or bench player?
3. What position does Dumars see him playing?

Regarding possible Pistons trades or free agent signings, I think it would be helpful to know the answer to those three questions.

“I don’t understand how us giving away assets to land … Bosh, Amare, or anyone else helps us re-sign them in 2010”

It actually helps to have those guys already in your uniform when the contract expires. You can offer them quite a bit more max money than any other team. That may not matter for a big endorsement guy like LBJ, but it’s quite a bit extra for Amare or Bosh.

If Bosh really told Colangelo that he’s not going to re-sign, and if Colangelo believes him, then he will get dealt, and the team acquiring him will be acquiring some real value.

“I’ve been wondering about Kwame too. What other team has an MLE who never plays? Maybe he doesn’t deserve to, but if so, that signing was a significant mistake on Joe D’s part.”

I think it was a good signing. $4m is actually a reasonable bit under the MLE.

And I don’t understand why he’s out of the rotation. I’m well aware of the limits of his game, but if you want to be sane and limit Sheed to 36mpg and Dice to 26mpg, you really need to put him into the rotation. We can be competitive with short stretches of Kwame minutes, and our vet big men would be more effective with fewer minutes.

Of course, the “mistake on Joe D’s part” was the contract to a certain fan favorite big man whose contract runs three years past Kwame’s. The weight of that signing is playing a big part in the lack of Kwame sightings. Vecsey’s rumor concerns multiple phenomena about this team…

Bosh has close to an All-Star gurad in Calderon I beleive. O’Neal was suppose to be the big signing Bosh wanted. If I’m Bosh, do I want to play with D-Wade or Dirk or Stuck/Tay/Rip? A max to Wade/Bosh and little left over isn’t going to help Bosh. Same for Dirk/Bosh. You’ve got 3 guys Stuck/Rip/Tay surrounding Bosh, what do the others have? other than better climate.

The only others that get away signing with a Bosh + 1 player is someone like Bron or Kobe. Also, you go to NY, D’Antonis (sp) style doesn’t fit Bosh. Sure he’s athletic but the vast amount of the time it will be in Bron’s hands. And if it doesn’t work out, Bron’s not going to get the blame, Bosh will.

As for Boozer, I think because of his injury and unless he lights it up before summer, the Jazz are stuck with him. He’s not opting out and going to Miami. And I think even with Boozer, Wade doesn’t stay. However, with AK47 hurt, I can see the Jazz trading Boozer for Marion and the Heat taking a chance to at least having something because Marion won’t be resigned if Boozer is somewhat healthy. Even with a healthy Wade, they’re not getting past the Cavs or Celts. And with Boozer healthy next year they can hopefully find a 3rd wheel to pair with he and Wade.

I really think people are waiting for the first domino to fall. Does Clev mess with chemistry and trade Wally for ??? Perhaps Orlando pulls a trigger? Dallas? Do the Spurs or ?? tweak their lineup to match LA? I think atthe trade deadline their are alot of dominos that fall or very, very few. It won’t be inbetween.

If Bosh really told Colangelo that he’s not going to re-sign, and if Colangelo believes him, then he will get dealt, and the team acquiring him will be acquiring some real value.

I’m still not seeing the logic here. If he’s just looking for the highest contract, then it would be in Bosh’s best interest to resign with Toronto and Colangelo’s best interest to just stay put in regards to Bosh. But Bosh’s insistence on testing free agency seems to be with the goal of landing the best combo of $$ and wins. We will have plenty of money available to offer Bosh a max deal. Maybe an extra million or two per year would mean more to Bosh than playing with an all star shooting guard, but it doesn’t seem very likely – especially if we’re also having to add picks to sweeten the pot. Seems pretty risky.

“they’re” not “their” God I can’t spell

Good points Mark, but I do think it’s still possible Boozer opts out this year – even if we balk, Memphis won’t.

seeing AI in a Toronto uniform would make me smile

“I’m still not seeing the logic here. If he’s just looking for the highest contract, then it would be in Bosh’s best interest to resign with Toronto and Colangelo’s best interest to just stay put in regards to Bosh.”

Yup. And I’d imagine Colangelo would sit tight for quite a while, if SAS’s rumor is true.

But more generally, whoever owns Bosh’s contract at the end of the ’10 season has some real value. One of three things will happen:

1) That team gets to re-sign Bosh for the ultra-max.
2) That team gets to sign & trade Bosh to a team of Bosh’s choosing, likely receiving some genuine compensation, and allowing Bosh to get the ultra-max.
3) Bosh simply walks and leaves a huge amount of money on the table.

If I were Colangelo, and if Bosh told me he wasn’t going to re-sign, I’d sit tight until the summer of ’10. Either Bosh changes his mind, or I can likely get something worthwhile back via sign & trade.

“Either Bosh changes his mind, or I can likely get something worthwhile back via sign & trade.”

umm, Bosh doesn’t have to do a sign and trade. Ben Wallace didn’t do a sign and trade… and from reports, I specifically remember him not wanting to sign and trade.

Colangelo has to make a move here, he can’t just let Bosh walk. That would set Toronto back several years trying to re-group from the loss of their only superstar player, ever.

Shinons: I think he does opt out. I think there’s bad blood brewing there. And the fact that it’s Sloan, you won’t have alot of people taking the side of Boozer with the way Milsap is playing. And if you do, I don’t think Sloan cares!! lol

Petey: I don’t think Colangelo can sit tight. The closer it comes to the summer of 2010 with Bosh definitely leaving, the less people will offer in trade. Do I sit here and offer something for Bosh (feb trade deadeline 2010) meaning assets or do I wait, save those assets to entice Bosh to sign FA deal? That’s not a hard choice.

“Petey: I don’t think Colangelo can sit tight. The closer it comes to the summer of 2010 with Bosh definitely leaving, the less people will offer in trade.”

That’s not the algebra here. No one would be trading for Bosh to get his services for the ‘09 – ’10 season. They would be trading for him to be able to sign him past ’10. And so the value of having his Bird Rights in the summer of ’10 won’t decrease with time.

“Ben Wallace didn’t do a sign and trade”

Ben Wallace wasn’t a max contract player. None of this stuff matters except for max contract players.

Bosh would have to leave somewhere around $35m on the table to just walk without a sign & trade.

Don’t you folks all know the CBA by heart?

Phoenix and Detroit both have overwhelmed rookie head coaches and difficult to mesh rosters that could still possibly contend for a title this year. What’s the difference between Phoenix and Detroit?

Phoenix’s seventh loss in 10 games, a defeat that came to a Bulls team playing its third road game in four nights, prompted an unusual postgame sequence of meetings.

Coach Terry Porter did not have his postgame press conference at the usual time. He first met with staff in his office behind a closed door before emerging 20 minutes after the game ended to talk to reporters.

After most of the Suns players had left, Grant Hill and Steve Nash went into Porter’s coaches’ office at about 10:20 p.m. for another closed-door meeting with coaches, Suns Managing Partner Robert Sarver and Suns General Manager Steve Kerr. Hill and Nash stayed for about 45 minutes before leaving together while the rest of the group wound up meeting for about one hour in whole.

“We’re obviously struggling right now,” Kerr said after the meeting. "We talk about everything. We talk about how our team is constructed. We talk about what we can do better as at team, different combinations that we can play. This is what we do. This is our job.

Can anyone imagining the same thing happening in Detroit with Dumars, Curry, Iverson, and Wallace? I’m not sure I can.

I still like Grant Hill.

…..and I wish he would have came back to Detroit a few years ago instead of signing with Phoenix. Can you imagine having Grant Hill come off the bench to backup Tay? That would have been awesome, especially considering we haven’t had a real backup SF since, oh, Grant Hill.

Oops, that didn’t quite come out right. Grant was never our backup, but Corliss Williamson was. That’s what I meant, and that was years ago.

Petey: It’s not a matter of his bird rights. Whether in 2010 or in 09 and the rights rolling to 2010. The offers Colangelo will be getting will decrease becasue Bosh is testing the free agency waters regardless. The sooner I can make him comfortable playing for my team the better chance I have resigning him.

I surround him with talent now and let him know how it feels for 1 1/2 years. Perhaps we throw in Amir or Max and/or a pick with AI. Take rip/tay/stuck against any 3 of the current raptors as constructed, what’s not to like? Throw in another FA and we’re off to the races.

I’m not trading for him in the summer of 2010 just for his bird rights. He’s testing free agency regardless. I’d like to have him know what he has playing for me against what he “might” have playing somewhere else. If’s he’s willing to leave money on the table in Toronto, he’d be willing to leave money on the table other places. I want him to feel comfortable playing for me as soon as possible and to see what the team is with can accomplish. He plays with the pistons, gets to the finals or ECF and says we’re close. I know because I’ve been there. Or, we get his bird rights, doesn’t play for us, looks and says, “Yeah, I think we can get to the ECF, but I think I can get there also with (fill in the blank).”

In short, one way’s proven the other’s not.

“It’s not a matter of his bird rights … The offers Colangelo will be getting will decrease becasue Bosh is testing the free agency waters regardless”

OK. I’ll try one last time and then give up:

It is indeed a matter of his Bird Rights because if Bosh signs with a team that doesn’t posses his Bird Rights, Bosh will have to leave somewhere around $35m on the table. Bosh won’t want to do that if he can avoid it, so he will likely want to sign with a team that has, or agrees to acquire via sign & trade, his Bird Rights.

Bosh’s Bird Rights won’t decrease in value over the next year and a half, so Colangelo will be in no particular rush to trade him. Not to mention that even if the normally unreliable SAS’s report is true, players have been known to change their minds about such things as time goes by.

Petey, I don’t know where you’re coming up with this idea that owning his Bird Rights give him an extra $35 million. As far as I can see, the max for a guy who has played seven seasons can only make a max 30 percent of the cap irregardless of who signs him. Everything else I read supports that. Unless I’m missing something, the only advantage his Bird rights give a team is that a team with cap limitations would be able to exceed it to resign him – which would mean jack to us.

“Petey, I don’t know where you’re coming up with this idea that owning his Bird Rights give him an extra $35 million. As far as I can see, the max for a guy who has played seven seasons can only make a max 30 percent of the cap irregardless of who signs him. Everything else I read supports that. Unless I’m missing something”

Ugh. I hate you for making me do research and actual math, Shinons.

My 15 second guesstimate of $35m left on the table turned out to be pretty damn close. After running the numbers, it’s around a $38m difference.

You are correct that the initial year’s pay is the same either way, but then it changes. Here’s what you’re missing (it’s all hidden in Coon’s excellent FAQ):

- Bird Rights allow you to sign a 6 yr deal instead of a 5yr deal.
- Bird Rights allow you to get 10.5% raises every year instead of 8% raises every year.

So if we’re assuming Bosh is an ultra-max player, (and I think he probably is), a max contract for him is $142m with Bird Rights and $104m without.

On a non-math-related note, check out the awesome Christmas present my brother got for our son:

http://parkerelliott.blogspot.com/2009/02/future-piston-parker-elliott.html

Whoops. Take two. The difference is actually $32m.

1 $16.5 $16.5
2 $18.2 $17.8
3 $20.1 $19.2
4 $22.3 $20.8
5 $24.6 $22.4
6 $27.2
                
        $112.4 $80.3

I wonder if Bosh wants to test free agency no matter what team he’s on, or whether he wants to test free agency because he has no confidence Toronto can build a winner around him.

If Bosh actually told Toronto then they need to trade him by the end of this summer to increase their ability to get the most value out of him. Good teams will know the longer they have Bosh before FA the more likely they’ll be able to re-sign him. I doubt this would get it done, but AI + Amir + 1st round pick for Bosh and Kapono works. I’d imagine Toronto would want a young stud, cap space and pick(s) though.

Take Three:

Bosh Max Bird Rights = $129m
Bosh Max Non-Bird Rights = $97m

Difference = $32m

I’m sticking with this one. Blame Steven A. Smith for all the math disrupting the thread.

TAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANK!!!!

Jim: We could totally use Jason Kapono. Good call. That would be an awesome deal for us.

Petey: Understand now. It is basically a sign-n-trade, or trade-n-sign per se’. Thanks for setting me straight. OTOH, if Colangelo does wait and it becomes very acrimonious, team tanks, Bosh has a subpar year or worse case, gets hurt, things blow up for Colangelo. Future tricky, but I’d be inclined to guess that Colangelo pulls the trigger sooner rather than later.

Just saw on ESPN Bynum is out for 8-12 weeks. Odom’s not going anywhere unless it’s Jazz (Boozer) or Heat (Marion).

If I’m the Jazz, I’m picking up the phone right now and trying to get Boozer cleared ASAP.

Hollinger thinks we might be in a little bit of trouble (what else is new… unfortunately looking at the numbers, I agree with him):

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=PERDiem-090202

With all the hullabaloo about the Piston’s guards and Tayshaun playing the 4 and so on, I think the real damage to the team has been going on in the front court.

Rasheed is absolutely, without a doubt, being run into the ground. McDyess, while he got 1 month off, isn’t far behind based on the minutes he’s playing.

Now, I can understand playing Rasheed and/or Dyess close to 40 minutes in a game that might determine playoff seeding (late season, or head-to-head with a division rival), but we’re not in that same boat with Cleveland or Boston at this point.

Wallace and McDyess are better players than Maxiell and Johnson. Ok. We all get that, Coach. But you CAN’T JUST PLAY YOUR STARTERS.

And to think, about 12 months ago some people were yelling just about the same thing regarding Flip Saunder’s rotations. I can just see Curry whispering in Saunder’s ear:

“It’s ok, Flip. You can play RaSheed 40 minutes a game. He won’t get tired. He’s only 34! And McDyess is money. He’s only had about 7 knee surgeries! He’s good for at least 38 minutes a night!”

Unbelievable.

Hollinger says it’s not what the Lakers do, but what everyone else in the WC does knowing they may have a chance now that bynum is out and might not come back like last year (i.e., delay, delay, etc).

I’m still not fully with ya.

LARRY BIRD EXCEPTION — This is the best known one. […] These contracts can be up to six years in length. A player can receive raises up to 10.5% of the salary in the first season of the contract.

The key point being a raise up to 10.5% in the first season of the contract. Are you sure it’s not just the default 8% for the rest of the deal?

@Big Z

I was curious and decided to look at the box scores of the first four games of this season. It was amazing how spread out the minutes are. With Dyess on the team and Amir starting, they were getting about 20-25 minutes a piece and the bench was getting good run as well (Maxiell too).

Why can’t he do that now? I really believe that article that Joe D is telling Curry what to do because none of the decisions for rotations make any sense.

“The key point being a raise up to 10.5% in the first season of the contract. Are you sure it’s not just the default 8% for the rest of the deal?”

Correct you are, Shinons, and wrong was I. The raises don’t compound. It’s a flat 10.5% raise calculated from the first year under Bird, and a flat 8% under non-Bird.

So, the fourth time is the charm:

Bosh Bird = $125m
Bosh Non-Bird = $95m

Difference = $30m

But what if the maximum salary would be high enough in 2016 that it would make more sense for Bosh to become a free agent again after the fifth year, grabbing that 10.5% raise at an earlier point in time? Conceivably, couldn’t it be more lucrative to leave the ~$27 mil the sixth year on the table?

…

Ok, now I’m just screwing with you.

“Ok, now I’m just screwing with you.”

Hey, I learned something today: raises don’t compound.

My goal is to completely learn the CBA just before they change it completely.

I say we try to put a deal together the sooner the better.

“I say we try to put a deal together the sooner the better.”

I just can’t see how Detroit has the assets to make that deal. The cupboard is bare. I know y’all think Amir and Stuckey are the bee’s knees, but I’m not sure other GM’s will share your valuation. You’d have to throw in Tay to even get noticed.

An offer of Beasley and Marion and other assets trumps the field, should Colangelo want to pull the trigger early. But my guess is that he plays the waiting game.

But Joey D is wily. We shall see.

“"Ben Wallace didn’t do a sign and trade"

Ben Wallace wasn’t a max contract player. None of this stuff matters except for max contract players."

According to my interpretation of the CBA, Ben Wallace qualified for a max contract. Whether he got one or not, he still qualified for a max contract.

He did not take the max contract, which would have ultimately lead to a sign and trade between Detroit and the other dance partner. Instead he chose to sign his deal with Chicago, thus throwing Chicago back into the gutter for the next 5-6 years.

Anyone who thinks Marion and Beasley for Bosh (and scraps) is going to work is absolutely fooling themselves.

There is still no guarantee that Wade stays in Miami himself, so why risk losing both Bosh and Wade while also giving Toronto a key piece (whether you consider him a building block or not) in Michael Beasley.

I’m holding out hope that AI ends up in Toronto… I would love to see him in a Toronto uniform. I may even buy a jersey if he was traded to Toronto, just for the comedic value of it… my how far he has fallen in a year

I agree Petey.

Amir and/or Max along with AI and a pick? Tor has the PF loced up and 20M after this year to find a SF and SG. Do the Pistons have a 2nd pick in the 1st round in 09 draft? For some reason I thought we did. Or a bunch of 2nd’s stockpiled?

But you take Bargini (sp), Calderon, Amir/Max and all you need is a SG & SF in the future. And you’ve got J ONeal to help. Hell, if it can be done, I’d seriously look at AI / ONeal swap. We still clear space for 2010 and it gives us a more traditional line up. And I gotta think his knee/ankle doesn’t hurt as much if he’s playing on a winning team or he’s an expiring contract next year for someone looking at 2010.

Pistons have Stuck, Rip, Sheed, Bosh (or ONeal), Tay with Dyess, Bynum, AA, Fabio off the bench. Kwame picks up some minutes by default. PF back up big next year could be Plastaid.

With Mia: Wade and Bosh and Haslem. I don’t see anything else there that’s going to get them out of the second round against Bos or Clev or even Orlando. And as smallish as Bargini at the 5 and Beasley at the 4, you can’t add another “small” SF. I’m one of those guys who think playing with Wade and having Riley really affects Beasley as it relates to work ethic. I don’t think you want to leave Beasley to his own devices at this point in his career.

I’d even trade AI for Kidd because I think Kidd wouldn’t mind being 6th man with the right extension. Great tutor for Stuck. At the end of the day, we do have a low post threat. But nobody makes Sheed post up and that’s Curry’s fault and even Dumars.

Right now we agree thatthis team isn’t going anywhere as constructed. Might as well get on with it rather than hoping to entice a FA this summer. In fact, I like the AI/ONeal swap even more if we can’t get something BIG done.

I’m watching the Lakers and Knicks right now. I don’t think the Knicks need two superstars. Just Lebron will do. They’ve got a lot of great role players:

Duhon: Solid PG with a now consistent jumper
Robinson: Instant O off the bench.
Jeffries: Great defender
Lee: Great rebounder
Chandler: A nice complimentary scorer.

Adding Lebron would completely transform this team.

What’s the Pistons’ draft pick situation? I know they have 3 extra 2nd rounders. What years are they for?

QD, we have our second round pick this year plus the T-Wolves and Toronto’s. We may have an additional second round pick for the 2010 draft as well.

QD, we have our second round pick this year plus the T-Wolves and Toronto’s. We may have an additional second round pick for the 2010 draft as well.

MarkButter

Why not, and I haven’t run the numbers but:

AI
Tay
Amir

for

Howard
Kidd
Bass(?)

It’s a dream to get Bass but… one can hope!

Looking at the 2009 Mock Draft on draftexpress.com, it doesn’t look like the Pistons will be able to find a capable big man so they might as well just go with the best player available.

Looks like the value position is PGs (Ty Lawson, Darren Collison, Stephen Curry, Pat Mills). All would make capable backups for Stuck.

problem is… Dallas isn’t going to move Kidd and only have JJ Barea as their true PG… Terry is a poor man’s AI… AI is not a point guard

and I think AI would hurt Dirk more than he would help

“I just can’t see how Detroit has the assets to make that deal. The cupboard is bare. I know y’all think Amir and Stuckey are the bee’s knees, but I’m not sure other GM’s will share your valuation. You’d have to throw in Tay to even get noticed.”

I think this is an overstatement. I don’t know what “that deal” refers to, but I’m sure that there are a variety of trades we could make at this point. The question is what kind of value we’d be getting.

I think it’s fair to say we overvalue Amir, but I wholeheartedly disagree about Stuckey. A 6’5" PG that can defend and has a still developing, but already potent offensive game is pretty much the definition of the bees knees. Of course, we won’t trade him since he is essentially our foundation moving forward. Anyways, I think it is pretty clear that we don’t have to throw in Tay to even get noticed. We have plenty of valuable assets. That said, it might not be prudent to make a desperate move when we could get something for less in the FA market.

“Adding Lebron would completely transform this team.”

That’s certainly true of the Knicks, but it’s also true of pretty much every other team in the NBA (especially if we assume that LeBron comes via free agency and the team doesn’t lose any existing players).

Rosenberg is just figuring this out now? I think 80% of us saw this a month or 2 back… I’d point this out to Curry, but I want us to lose the rest of our games so we can fill a need via the draft.

http://www.freep.com/article/20090202/COL22/902020347/1051/SPORTS03/Pistons++best+chance?+Bring+A.I.+off+bench

it would be funny if LeBron decided to sign in Detroit (or Chicago) because when he was a wee lad the Pistons and Bulls were the best teams in the league

Toledo Joe, yeah, I realized how stupid that sounded after I posted it.

I’m watching the Spurs vs. Warriors game on justin.tv for no particular reason, and am very amused by how openly homer-ish the Warriors TV guys are. There’s just something funny about such a crappy team having announcers who pretend their team is good (CJ Watson & Maggette ftw) and complain about the refs, then sorta mock the opponent, etc…

As always, SAS is SAS:

“No. No. No. I have not told him that,” Bosh said, shooting down the report.

“It was a surprise to me. I can’t be responsible for what people say. I understand that people are entitled to their opinion. But making stuff up, we can’t do that. Let’s all be fair.”

And Colangelo gets in the best shot:

It’s a non-story. Stephen A. got a little carried away. I’ve e-mailed him to talk about it but he’s in bed with the flu. Maybe the basketball Gods have something to do with that.

Boney: I like that trade. The problem for us may be the same for others, folks know Joe D. is looking to make a trade and will sell short. Kinda like his press conference following the ECF.

I guess I’d rather limp and lick our wounds this season and do something more to our liking in the summer with FA money.

colin: What Petey said is a little unfair re: Amir. The last few years plenty of GMs overvalued Amir so it’s not just Joe and DBB. If it’s true that Joe got first round draft pick offers for Amir, those teams would be kicking themselves right now if they actually went through with it.