Imagine ai playing in chi-town…most prolific scorer since MJ (career ppg). Clearly still needs to work on his d, though.

AI would fit in Orlando. They don’t have a great SG, he could play point if Jameer Nelson is on the bench (or hurt), he could dribble drive and kick to stationary 3-pt shooters if he’s in trouble. I don’t know how much cap space the Magic will have but that’s a good fit for Iverson. I think the Magic will have about $8 million dollars worth of contracts clearing, maybe up to $13M if they move Tony Battie. Iverson gives Orlando an option when their jumpshots aren’t falling.

I think he’ll be offered the Mid-level by a team or two, but I don’t know if he will take it. I could see him becoming a midseason signing for a contender who could bring him off the bench, which is probably where he’d be most effective at this stage in his career.

The problem is that I don’t think HE thinks he’d be most effective coming off the bench at this stage in his career. He did just finish a season averaging 27 ppg, so he’s still capable (on some level) of doing his thing…

Come on… while I agree that his time in Detroit has been a disaster, he’s definitely worth the full mid-level. I’m not sure which teams actually can offer it but there will definitely be plenty of interest at that price.

I don’t see him finding many suitors, but I’ll throw a few darts. Would Larry Brown consider a reunion in Charlotte and allow Iverson to replace Felton? They have a bunch of defensive-minded players there, although I can’t imagine Augustin and Iverson ever seeing the court together. Could Chicago bring him in to replace Ben Gordon? Hinrich and Rose are big point guards who could play alongside Iverson. Their offense is already bad and would be terrible if Gordon leaves, so maybe Iverson could help. Also, Toronto could use some firepower alongside Bosh. As of today, they have cap room and might buy the ticket-selling nonsense.

He could make some sense for the Wizards- the only “PG’s” on their roster next year are Arenas and Crittenton, so AI would fill a need and could be good insurance in case Arenas hasn’t healed up by the start of next season. But they probably couldn’t offer more than the MLE.

I think Detroit should re-sign AI for $12m next season and use him as a mentor for Rodney Stuckey so Stuckey has someone to learn from…

Rodney Stuckey led the Rookie/Sophomore game with 9 assists. He put up 12 points on 5-6 shooting with 9 assists and 3 steals. Nice to see him lead that team from the point (although, admittedly, its no story next to Durant’s dominance).

http://www.nba.com/games/20090213/RKESPH/boxscore.html

@ Boney: Learn what? How to turn the ball over and be a defensive liability?

i agree with you on so many levels
a) his time here in detroit has hurt his stock, he turned a solid team into a joke
b) even if his stock didn’t drop, so many teams want to wait til 2010 to get a bigger time player, so who will want to gamble on him at a max deal contract

so he most definitely will be insulted by the offers he gets this summer… unless there is a really dumb GM out there… i guess there always is one

stuckeys learning how to dress like ai first off. he was looking FRESH, and like curtis jackson with that new shape-up, headband, and nice kicks. playing on a squad other than the pistons on sunday will be a breath of fresh air for iverson though

AI intrigues me on Dallas. Kidd’s $21 million expires, and assuming they re-sign him for much less, AI would be playing next to a bigger, pass-first PG, allowing him to play shooting guard exclusively. The Mavs would probably have to move Howard and/or Stack at the deadline for an expiring deal to have enough cap space, which is unlikely, but AI is the type of big name Cuban likes. And with an easy-going superstar like Dirk, it could work there. Dirk is the perfect big man to play with AI. I wouldn’t be shocked to see him get the full mid-level there, probably on no more than a one or two year deal, though.

AI to dallas is interesting but they already have Jet who is a very similar type player to AI if you think about it, same size similar game they are both just scorers

“If you can … tell me what teams you could see him playing for next year.”

Depends if he wants to play for a contending team or not. (I assume he does.)

I still think Detroit is the most likely destination next year, especially since they are the only team that can pay him more than the MLE, but if either side balks, here would be the contending teams who could make best use of him:

Lakers
Rockets
Mavs
Spurs
Celtics

You basically need a veteran team with some 3pt shooters and an experienced coach to make it worthwhile.

The Spurs seem unlikely due to Tony Parker, but Iverson is exactly the kind of player Pop loves to bring in. The Celtics seemingly only come into play if they fall short this year. And if Jameer Nelson is having trouble returning from injury, add the Magic to the list.

But the Lakers, Rockets, and Mavs seem like the teams that could get the biggest bang out of Iverson, given current rosters.

If we look at non-contending teams, the Wizards and Warriors would be perfect fits. The Clippers would be perfect if they gave up on B-Diddy, but that’s obviously not going to happen.

“I think it’s fair to say his time in Detroit has more or less been a disaster, and while the blame doesn’t fall solely on his shoulders, it’ll still cost him dearly this summer.”

I’m not sure how. He was never going to get more than the MLE this summer from anyone other than Detroit, so I’m not sure what has changed.

The chattering class doesn’t like him, but they didn’t like him before the trade either. Teams actually interested in winning knew what he could provide before the trade, and still do now. If anything, his ability to stay professional and productive in a lousy situation will likely reassure teams actually interested in winning.

“there’s a big part of me that won’t be surprised if he gets insulted at the offers that do trickle in and decides to simply call it a career.”

The sad thing is that Matt Watson is going to be just as clueless about Iverson at the end of the year as he was at the beginning.

He doesn’t get Iverson’s game or his motivation, and neither thing is particularly obscure. Matt Watson just doesn’t have a particular good grasp on hoops.

LOL didn’t read your whole post… b/c why in the WORLD, do you think dumars would even consider re-signing AI at this point? seriously? take a look at their record haha
unless it was for a one year rental at the MLE or lower, in which case i think AI walks anyway

no way does AI return to detroit

I could absolutely see the Mavs going after AI. He is a perfect fith with Mark Cuban’s style.

I could also see SA going after AI, and Sheed for that matter. Sheed is a scary good fit for SA…. can play alongside Duncan as a role player, spread the floor, rebound, and defend. Sheed makes them the front-runner in the West.

AI is a bit of a gamble for SA, but with a well-established system, a tradition of winning, and a no-nonsense coach — that would be a great fit for AI.

@Petey: The only way AI stays in Detroit is if Joe can pay him little in hopes of trading him for young talent with small contracts and/or picks.

I respect him as a player, but it just hasn’t worked out for him here.

Interesting, but this is still a little premature. First, I think a number of GMs would look at this season so far and conclude what I (and a number of others) think: AI has been a bad fit in Detroit, but that’s not primarily AI’s fault, that’s an issue with the roster (and maybe the coaching). I’ve said it before, but I’ll repeat: you take the current Pistons and replace AI with Ray Allen or any other look-to-score-first guard and you have the same problems.

Second, while I’m as depressed as the next poster about the Pistons so far this year, there still is a tiny part of me that says it’s possible that they can step it up and at least do some respectable damage in the playoffs. I’m not saying that’s “likely,” but it could happen and if it does, that would mean AI has been integrated better. GMs will be evaluating him on the whole season (and the last couple), not just the first half of this one.

Iverson’s last 5 games; 23 points, 4 assists, 3 boards, 3 steals.

This is what AI looks like when he is in a running system and it seems that MC has finally realized that Detroit cannot play in the halfcourt. Iverson is still a GREAT player and any team would be glad to have him. To say that AI has been a disaster in Detroit is wrong IMO, the disasters have been the coach that has the personnel to run but had for whatever reason decided to play one of the slowest paced offenses in the league and not having a single bigman that is capable of anchoring the defense. Detroit has one of the best (if not the best) guard rotations in the league, once again it is the frontcourt that leaves something to be desired.

SA would definitely be interested in sheed, so long as they didnt lose manu or parker or duncan… i would be happy for sheed too… as much as i wanted him to retire a piston, sucks that he has to go through a rebuilding phase right now… so i would be happy to see him be in a team where he can succeed and where his 3-point shooting and defense would be welcome alongside duncan… would be a great fit for him and the spurs

i don’t see spurs wantint to touch AI with a 100 mile stick… seriously… just don’t see it… pop would go wild having to coach him

btw totally random but: http://d.yimg.com/a/p/sp/getty/9b/fullj.f4a51f889b9e38781ec3cb2775e0fab9/f4a51f889b9e38781ec3cb2775e0fab9-getty-83008116mw181_t_mobile_rook.jpg
stuckey is pretty tall for a PG eh? realized it when he stood side by side to dwight

“I still think Detroit is the most likely destination next year, especially since they are the only team that can pay him more than the MLE”

Petey, there’s exactly ZERO chance we offer AI more than the MLE. It just wouldn’t make any sense with the composition of our roster after this season. We’ve already invested heavily in Rip/Tay, plus we have Stuck/AA progressing and deserving more minutes, and most importantly: our only bigs under contract will be: Max/Amir/Kwame. It would be suicidal to pour more than MLE money into a position where we already have depth, when our frontcourt desperately needs to be re-stocked.

“here would be the contending teams who could make best use of him:
Lakers
Rockets
Mavs
Spurs
Celtics”

I think this is very optimistic of you.

Lakers- Phil Jackson and the triangle put a premium on backcourt size, 3 point shooting, and OFF-BALL movement. AI is a horrible fit on the Lakers.

Rockets- Their new GM is the most dedicated basketball “moneyball” GM in the league. AI is not a “moneyball” type player (think: Landry, Battier), and his style would be a bizarre and poor fir alongside Yao.

Mavs- They have Jason Terry signed for huge money through 2012. So the role of undersized scorer/penetrator is already taken. Cuban sometimes does crazy things, but even he would probably balk at signing AI to the MLE when he’s already paying Terry 10-12 mil a year.

Spurs- There could be a small chance here, but only if AI is cool with having the same diminished role that Damon Stoudamire agreed to a few years ago.

Cetlcis- again, a very small chance, but only if AI agrees to an Eddie House level role.

“…He doesn’t get Iverson’s game or his motivation, and neither thing is particularly obscure…”

Petey, not you, or any of us, know what AI’s “motivation” is. You talk like you know him personally. You don’t. You watch him play basketball on TV. You seem to think that because you’ve watched AI play basketball through the years that you have some insight into “who he is” that the rest of us lack. But again, the truth is: you don’t. You know his game very well (better than any of us here), but don’t pretend to know AI’s “motivation.”

Matt Watson,

How dare you ever write a negative thing about Allen Iverson. Don’t you know that everyone should pattern their game after AI? We’d have a team full of team players if we had 15 AIs on the team.

You know nothing about basketball sir.

Gabe,

It’s easy to see AI’s game… I’ll break it down:

dribble, dribble, dribble, crossover, dribble, shoot; miss
let man drive by him, score, look for inbound pass
dribble, dribble dribble, crossover, pump fake, try to draw foul, miss
let man drive by him, score
dribble, dribble, wtfallaway, score!
let man drive by him, kick it out for open 3
dribble, bad pass

@Bony: you forgot dribble dribble dribble, throw ball out of bounds to team mate who left the are 5 seconds ago, sink to knees, blame it on Stuckey…

are= area…

What I’ve learned from this thread so far is that anyone who is not completely on AI’s d*ck doesn’t know anything about basketball. I guess I don’t know anything about basketball. I should probably grab my coat and leave now.

“Lakers- Phil Jackson and the triangle put a premium on backcourt size”

Fisher is 6’1", and Farmar is 6’2".

“Rockets- Their new GM is the most dedicated basketball "moneyball" GM in the league. AI is not a "moneyball" type player (think: Landry, Battier)”

I think you are deeply unclear on that of which you speak. As the NYTimes story today wrote about Morey:

He went looking, essentially, for underpaid players. "That’s the scarce resource in the N.B.A.," he says.

“Moneyball” is about value, not about unheralded defensive oriented players.

It’s true that unheralded defensive oriented players sometimes correlate with value, but so do aging players who would command $10m on open market, but are brought down to the MLE level by the cap provisions.

the bobcats are the perfect team for AI. The are tough, defensive minded team thats improving everday, LB and AI have a tremendous relationship. all they need is a prolific scorer and they will be ready to make a run. bring ai on board mj! and ai’s motivation to play is quite simpe: for the love of the game and to win a championship…

Petey, Gabe, and everyone else:

Here’s a link to Michael Lewis’s NYT story on Shane Battier, Daryl Morey, and money*basket*ball:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/15/magazine/15Battier-t.html?_r=1&hp=&pagewanted=all

I disagree with the economy being the reason attendance has plummeted.

It’s a small factor in my opinion, the pistons are an escape for many of their fans, so puttin’ down money even when you don’t have it is natural here in Michigan. We’ve been in a state of economic depression for years, longer than the rest of America.

The real reason people aren’t going to games is that they’re losing so much, people offline probably don’t like Curry and see some of the teams we’re dropping games to, and wanna wait it out til the playoffs or next season.

LOL @ Petey- did you not read the part re:Lakers, where I said, in addition to size, Phil and the triangle value: 3 point shooting and OFF-BALL movement.

Think of all Phil Jackson’s teams… Seriously, think about them for a few seconds… Every single guard has either been big for his position, a great 3 point shooter, or great at moving without the ball. AI is the absolute polar opposite of someone who would fit in the triangle offense.

and also LOL @ Petey for this beauty- “It’s true that unheralded defensive oriented players sometimes correlate with value, but so do aging players who would command $10m on open market…”

It’s actually kinda funny how “deeply unclear” YOU are about the point of a “moneyball” philosophy. You imply that because there might be a team dumb enough to spend 10m/per year on AI, that means if he signs for less, he is a “good value.” The main focus of “moneyball” is not to avoid overpaying players, the main point is to find players who will over-perform their contract. I guess this might be counter-intuitive for you, because you probably believe AI is actually worth 10m/year.

Basically, I’ll sum it up, real simple: AI is 33, he is undersized, his game depends on quickness, he has mediocre shooting ability, and his PER currently is roughly 16 (just above average). He is not worth 10m/year. If someone paid him that, they would be grossly overpaying. But, not overpaying for AI is not the same as signing him to a “good value” contract.

In sum:
Carl Landry- 3 years, 9mil (age 25-27 seasons)= great value (moneyball!!!)
Allen Iverson- 3 years, 17-18mil (age 34-36 seasons)= meh… as in- not a bad contract, but not something AI will definitely over-perform.

Petey – I think the basketmoneyball analogy would absolutely be to unheralded defensive players. Saying moneyball means getting good value is too general. If A Rod is worth 35m a year, signing him for 30m isn’t a moneyball move. Moneyball is about signing fat, slow infielders who most people wouldn’t even draft, simply b/c u can pay them nothing and they have good plate judgment. Your definition of bargain hunting describes the motivations of every gm in the league.

Similarly in the stock market, being a value investor doesn’t mean “buys stocks that should be worth more than they are trading.” That describes the goal of every market participant. It’s a particular way of doing things: buying things with dirt cheap valuations, etc.

Needless to say, I can’t imagine morey paying for scoring. That’s the most efficient market in the nba.

why isn’t nba all-star weekend being discussed here on DBB?

No comment on my AI to Orlando suggestion? I wonder why Orlando gets relatively little attention compared to other good teams. Dwight Howard isn’t half bad, Rashard Lewis is a pretty great offensive player, they have a good coach, Ben Q. Rock is a good blogger. Everybody hates Chris and nobody cares about Orlando. Such is life.

@david stern:
because there aren’t any Pistons in the all star game.

@mike payne

stuckey – rookie/sophmore challenge
afflalo, laimbeer, smith – shooting stars competition
the greatest player to ever put on a detroit pistons jersey – all-star game

my best friend is an orlando magic fan, and he’s not too big on AI either, but did mention he thought AI would be a pretty good fit there when I asked him about possible environments AI might thrive in. All the 3-pt shooters they have there already get so many good looks off of dwight’s attention, but adding AI’s penetration could make the team absolutely lethal. Also, having a big body with amazing hops to protect the rim would allow AI to gamble more for steals again, and make up for his inability to keep opposing guards from going by him all the way to the basket at ease. When jameer went down for the season i thought maybe they would try to make a deal with dumars, but so much for wishful thinking. I could see him playing point there 35-40 mpg putting up 20/8/2 steals, and severely helping out there offense when it goes into a dryspell by simply being aggressive and getting to the foul line.

“It’s a particular way of doing things: buying things with dirt cheap valuations, etc.”

Sure. But Iverson next year is going to have a dirt cheap valuation if he doesn’t return to Detroit, due to the way the cap rules work in practice. Just as Iverson this year makes more than he’d get on the open market, next year he’s going to make less than he’d get on the open market.

“Moneyball” really isn’t fundamentally about preferring Shane Battier-type players. Instead, “moneyball” theory just recognizes that Shane Battier-type players are generally undervalued in terms of salary. For example, Bruce Bowen has made a total of $24m in his entire career.

Zach Randolph at $17m per is a bad contract. Zach Randolph at the MLE is moneyball.

“Needless to say, I can’t imagine morey paying for scoring. That’s the most efficient market in the nba.”

Well…

First, Morey is paying $23m next year for the services of Tracey McGrady, so it’s not as if he’s trying to assemble 15 Shane Battier’s. You still NEED shot creation to win.

Second, scoring may be higher paid as a rule than non-scoring, but scoring isn’t paid particularly efficiently. Stephon Marbury makes more than Kobe Bryant. Gibert Arenas makes more than Dwyane Wade.

A comment I made much earlier in the season was that Arron Afflalo was more of a core asset to the Pistons than Rodney Stuckey. No one seemed to understand what I was talking about, but it was just basic moneyball theory. A few years out, Stuckey is going to be overpaid, while Afflalo is going to be underpaid. So Stuckey may be the “better” player, but Afflalo is the better core asset.

“the greatest player to ever put on a detroit pistons jersey – all-star game”

Dave Bing is playing? hmmm

“First, Morey is paying $23m next year for the services of Tracey McGrady, so it’s not as if he’s trying to assemble 15 Shane Battier’s. You still NEED shot creation to win.”

No… First:

Morey is paying $23m next year for a player he acquired in a trade who already had a max contract. If he’s not trying to assemble 15 Shane Battiers then what is he trying to assemble? I mean, he is trying to donk off McGrady and it was rumored he was looking for glue guys like Billups, Hamilton or Tay in return if a deal brought him to Detroit.

The whole premise of moneyball is getting a lot for a little. Nick Swisher and Adam Dunn are premium “moneyball” players because they are power hitters and have high OBP even though their batting averages are below par.

AI had the ability to score 27 a night, but on how many shots? 17 18? While shooting 41% from the field while also shooting 75% from the charity stripe. Considering he did one thing well and none of the other things (defense, team leadership, play above his contract), he is not moneyball. Had he signed a 5 year, $55m deal somewhat in line with Tayshaun Prince, you’d be right.

Petey, you also drop names of current point guards for the LA Lakers as if you feel AI is still a point guard in this league. If AI were on the Lakers, who is going to set up the triangle offense? AI? He can’t even set up the basic half court offense in Detroit, how is he going to set his ego aside and let Kobe Bryant dominate the ball? The Lakers won’t win a title with AI running the point.

The Celtics have a point guard, Eddie House is a 3 point specialist, AI is neither so why even risk running him out there with a team that still has the core of a winner.

Rockets, maybe if they trade McGrady. Again, AI is not a point guard.

Mavs? AI isn’t a point guard, and even if the Mavs did want him, it’s not for anything more than a 1 year deal so they can line themselves up for 2010 since Dirk is a FA.

I could perhaps see him as a Spur, don’t know his game would jive with TP’s game. Again, AI is not a point guard so even if you put him in there to backup TP (which as you can see by TP’s recent backups Brent Barry, Jacque Vaughn, is unlikely) it’s not a good fit.

AI isn’t even instant offense anymore. He has his moments, just like all players do. He does not do anything consistently, anymore. You know, I looked at the signing of Chris Webber the same way you fanboys look at AI. I saw a guy who averaged a double double a season before the Pistons acquired him. I saw a guy who dunked on Barkley as a rookie… I saw the fab five… I fell for the black socks and the long shorts… at the end of the day, all I saw was a stiff who was getting abused by his man on the defensive end of the court.

That’s what I see with AI. He’s a stiff.

Gabe,

I don’t know why you bother trying to use reason and logic with Petey. He is probably the most intellectually dishonest poster I’ve ever seen on his site. He’s never going to acknowledge the three valid and pretty much irrefutable points you made regarding why AI is a terrible fit in LA. Instead he’ll continue to search for the one nugget of info for which he can possibly offer a counter argument and pretend like that refutes the entire argument.

Also, I don’t see how anyone could possibly predict that AA is going to be the better core asset. First, it assumes that Stuckey will be overpaid. Is Wade overpaid? Stuckey might not end up being even close to that good, but IMHO, he’s gonna be pretty fucking good. Just because he might get a max contract, doesn’t mean he won’t be worth it. That would sort of be like saying that Bowen is a better core asset than Duncan or Ginobli. Bowen is a great value, but a Bowen-less Spurs make the playoffs. A Duncan-less team may not. Anyways, this all sort of silly, because it isn’t clear how great Stuckey is going to be or if Afflalo will ever defend as well as Bowen. Right now, both are decent/good and improving.

“SUPERMAN!!! DUN DUN DUNNNN!!! YOU WIN!!!! BONEY. YOU WIN!!!!!”

I’ve never heard a more ridiculous AI comparison until the previous post. You do realize you just compared a washed-up, it takes me 10 seconds to sprint up the court, can’t jump more than 6 inches or really do anything other than take up space and clank line drive 17 footers from the elbow Chris Webber to Allen Iverson. Congratulations!! And then on top of that, you labeled him a “stiff”… I might have been somewhat joking/exaggerating when I said he was the greatest player to ever play in a pistons uniform. But, if you take a step back and consider the career he’s had, one could argue that he quite possibly is/was, but a stiff?!? hahaha, c’mon now, Shawn Bradley’s a stiff. Allen Iverson is the complete opposite.

consider the career Chris Webber had as well. He wasn’t exactly a slouch… it’s not his fault AI couldn’t play with him.

AI is a stiff. You can put a pretty bow on that box all you want, deep down you know in your heart of hearts that inside that box is still a pile of shit.

and again… you take the most harsh part of my entire statement and throw it up yet you don’t argue anything else…

“hey CWebb could be the answer. he averaged 20 and 10 last year…”

compare that to

“AI IZ DA GREATES OF ALL DA TIMZ!!!! HE AVERAGE 27 POINZ PER DAME DAST DEEZON!!!”

He must be one unique “pile of shit” then. I never knew shit could be so fast, or end up being the 3rd leading scorer in NBA history. I never knew “piles of shit” could win MVP awards, all-nba first teams, defensive teams, ROY awards, mvps to rookie and all-star games, lead the league in scoring, minutes, steals, sheer heart, and hustle. I also would have never thought they could lead a team of and older Mutombo, Tyrone Hill, George Lynch, Eric Snow, and Aaron Mckie all the way to the NBA Finals and put up a legitimate fight against one of the greatest if not the greatest Playoff Dynasty ever assembled. Webber’s had some wonderful days with some wonderful players throughout his career, but he’s never won, and he’s never had to defy the odds that a 6’0 165 lb phenom would. Boney, just give respect where respects due.

Boney,

I do think calling him a stiff is a bit much. I think he’s regressed, but not yet a stiff.

"hey CWebb could be the answer. he averaged 20 and 10 last year…"

compare that to

"AI IZ DA GREATES OF ALL DA TIMZ!!!! HE AVERAGE 27 POINZ PER DAME DAST DEEZON!!!"

First off, I don’t type/speak quite like that, and either do many other people who respect Iverson’s game, so let’s grow up a little bit and not be so steriotypical. 2nd off, lets get it right. It’s 27 a game for and entire 13 year career, not simply last season. And last but not least, you should have consulted with a 76er fan as myself about the possibility of c-webb pushing your team over the top.

“Instead he’ll continue to search for the one nugget of info for which he can possibly offer a counter argument and pretend like that refutes the entire argument.”

Welcome to comment threads on the internet, colin. This is basically the way everyone operates.

Picking a point to respond to doesn’t mean I’m claiming to “refute the entire argument”. It just means I’m picking a departure point to, y’know, respond to.

“Just because he might get a max contract, doesn’t mean he won’t be worth it. That would sort of be like saying that Bowen is a better core asset than Duncan or Ginobli.”

Duncan is actually undervalued, due to the max contract rules that turn all of the most valuable players in the league into bargains.

But I’d argue that, with contracts figured in, Bowen has been a much more valuable core asset to the Spurs than Tony Parker…

i just think it’s amazing that we’re still having the debate that has rightfully dogged ai all his career. he’s so good, why is it impossible to win with him? even when he was at his best, with one of the three or four best coaches in nba history, his team couldn’t get the job done. even in the olympics, with the best players america could muster next to him, a legendary coach who knew his game, we still failed by trying to run the game through ai.

no major contender will risk switching to the ai offense. it’s basically an admission of “everything we do now is wrong, let’s try something COMPLETELY different,” and i can’t see the celts or lakers saying that. his only hope for a contender is to make one by signing with and lifting up an inferior team.

it’s kind of funny to think of it like this, but i’ll be glad to see ai go anywhere. despite facing him four times a season when he was a 76er and twice a season as a nugget, the only time since 2001 i worried about what damage he might do to my team was when he was on it. i’ll look forward to seeing ai on the court, knowing whatever team he plays for is crappy, and knowing it’s not my team. that will be a sweet day.

At this point in his career AI should play here.

http://www.rogersarkansas.com/parks/activitycenter/pdfs/6%27%20%20UNDER%20RULES.pdf

People forget that basketball is a team game and that is the team result that counts and not the individuals stats.

Some players make the team that they are on better without piling up stats. Some players just pile up stats but are not a net benefit to their team. Some players do both.

Examples of each of the above are.

1. Not great stats but significantly help their team win. Ben Wallace and C. Billups

2. Great stats but don’t help their teams win: C. Webber, A. Iverson

3. Great stats and help their teams win: Kareem, Kobe, Michael, Bird

Petey,

Thanks for the welcome. You are quite the gentleman.

I would also like to thank you for informing me that when debating on a blog it is acceptable to engage in opportunistic tactics that allow one to avoid core issues and generally act like a douche. I guess I was confused because a lot of the other people on this blog engage in honest debate and evaluate opposing arguments respectfully. My bad. I’ll do my best to act like an infuriating jerk-off from now on.

Also, Mike +1

“He must be one unique "pile of shit" then. I never knew shit could be so fast, or end up being the 3rd leading scorer in NBA history. I never knew "piles of shit" could win MVP awards, all-nba first teams, defensive teams, ROY awards, mvps to rookie and all-star games, lead the league in scoring, minutes, steals, sheer heart, and hustle. I also would have never thought they could lead a team of and older Mutombo, Tyrone Hill, George Lynch, Eric Snow, and Aaron Mckie all the way to the NBA Finals and put up a legitimate fight against one of the greatest if not the greatest Playoff Dynasty ever assembled. Webber’s had some wonderful days with some wonderful players throughout his career, but he’s never won, and he’s never had to defy the odds that a 6′0 165 lb phenom would. Boney, just give respect where respects due.”

I’m talking about now, not 7 years ago clownshoes. AI’s had some wonderful days with some wonderful players throughout his career as well, yet he has never won.

I’ll give respect to what the 00-01 Sixers did, as a team. They still got smoked in the Finals 4-1 by the “best playoff dynasty ever put together”. The way you look at AI I could look at Detroit and say that Detroit is better than LA now because Detroit beat them in the 2004 Finals, even though it was 4-5 years ago.

AI has accomplished a lot of scoring feats in the league. He is far from one of the best players in the league anymore and this offseason will be the crucial reality for all the fanboys and all their exclamation points. In my opinion, he’s a stiff. He can play offense, but he sucks a defense and ballhandling.

Ballhandling, Really Boney?

I’m surprised anyone would think that pairing Jameer Nelson and A.I. in the backcourt would be a good idea. That’s smallish to say the least. Ironically, I think a return to Philly would be a pretty good fit. Miller is big enough to guard opposing 2’s and they currently have Willie Green starting. Plus there’s always the sentimentality of wanting to end your career where it started, so a discount wouldn’t be out of the question.

ok colin, take out ballhandling and put in decision making

Boney,

I’m disappointed you didn’t make a joke out of that. Such great material available to you. Ballhandling.

“"Moneyball" is about value, not about unheralded defensive oriented players.”

Right, but he uses statistics to assess value. Statistically, AI is a hair above average on the offensive end (PER of 16 or so) and a disaster on the defensive end. Throw in another year past the age of 28, and AI figures to be a below average player. A stat geek isn’t going to spend the MLE on that.

AI’s problem is that a lottery team isn’t going to rebuild around him, the middling teams are cutting cap space, and the contenders are going to see a guy who turned the Pistons into an eight seed.

The fact that Chauncey Billups is undervalued only hurts his cause. It looks like we traded a ho-hum glue guy for AI, and it cost us 17 wins. People still think Carmelo Anthony is the most productive guy on that team.

“Picking a point to respond to doesn’t mean I’m claiming to "refute the entire argument". It just means I’m picking a departure point to, y’know, respond to.”

Ironically, you picked only part of Colin’s point and responded to it. Not only did he say that you pick departure points, but that you cherrypick when doing so and that, having countered a single argument, act as though you have made the entire case.

Typically, in good online forum debates, one selects the argument that is either the most complleing, or the one that reflects a core assumption that speaks to the point of dissent. For example.

Me: Chauncey Billups is the best player on the Nuggets. He doesn’t turn the ball over, plays great defense, and spreads the floor. Carmelo Anthony, while valuable, takes bad shots and plays lousy defense.

Honest dissenter guy: I think Anthony’s defense is underrated. If you look at his performance agaisnt opposing SFs etc…

Honest dissenter guy: In the past, Anthony has taken “bad” shots because he has been left with the ball late in the shot clock. This year, you will note a marked improvement in this area.

Dishonest dissenter guy: Spreads the floor? Wally Sczerbiak spreads the floor. He wouldn’t be the best player on the Nuggets. Chauncey Billups is the third best player on the Nuggets.

there is one piston in the all-star game tomorrow and his name isn’t AI… it’s billups

he’ll remain a piston to me always

“Right, but he uses statistics to assess value. Statistically, AI is a hair above average on the offensive end (PER of 16 or so)”

If you think Morey cares about PER, you’re even more clueless than I thought, kevin s, and I already think you’re pretty damn clueless…

I’m getting really sick of (almost) everyone on this board blaming (almost) everything on AI. Sure, there are the MCIAFI comments, but AI is the scapegoat here.

AI plays as hard as anyone else on the floor, and he’s arguably more positive about the trade than anyone else on the roster, with Dyess as the exception.

We are losing because we can’t defend consistently, which is caused by two things: poor perimeter defense that can’t contain dribble penetration and slow, aging bigs who can’t rotate quickly enough and can’t block shots like they used to.

AI is only one small piece of that puzzle, with Rip, Stuck, and Tay equally guilty.

MC’s part is refusing to play our young bigs in tandem with our old bigs, so we have quick, athletic big man who can rotate and deter, if not block, shots from guards who break down the defense.

That post is longer than I intended, but what I really wanted to say is this: I’m sick of everyone blaming AI, when he’s trying just as hard as anyone to make things work while remaining positive through the process.

/rant

“I’m getting really sick of (almost) everyone on this board blaming (almost) everything on AI. Sure, there are the MCIAFI comments, but AI is the scapegoat here.”
-brgulker

sigh This complaint about other people’s complaints has come up a few times in the last few weeks…

Here’s the thing… there’s a very simple reason for people focusing their “blame” on those two: There’s only two significant differences between last years team and this years team: Michael Curry instead of Flip, and AI instead of Billups.

Obviously the entire team hasn’t played up to expectations this year, but to ignore THE FACT that we won 59 games last year with almost this exact same roster, and THE FACT that the only significant differences between last years squad and this years are AI and Curry, would be crazy.

“to ignore THE FACT that we won 59 games last year with almost this exact same roster, and THE FACT that the only significant differences between last years squad and this years are AI and Curry, would be crazy.”

But, of course, there was tremendous hatred for Iverson on this site from the minute the trade was announced. The hatred wasn’t in response to the team’s record – it long preceded it.

And folks here seem to have a pretty high level of hatred for Rasheed as well.

It’s odd that the two Pistons who get the most love from association fans in general, and the two who bring the greatest advantage to their team, are the two who get the most hatred from the “fans” here.

It’s a pretty bizarre mentality.

But maybe Joey D is going to deliver the 34 win Stuckey/Boozer or Stuckey/Milsap team you folks are salivating for. Give the “fans” what they want – a Detroit Lions team on the hardwood that you can hate without reservation…

I don’t hate Iverson at all. I was really excited about the trade and thought he could really do his thing in Detroit and help us get that sense of urgency back. But it just hasn’t happened, and because of that I’m really frustrated. Most of my blame goes to Curry for not using the roster properly, but some of my blame spills over to Iverson for not playing up to Iverson-like potential. He’s been pretty underwhelming so far (for a superstar of his stature) and I don’t 100% know if that’s his fault, or the players, or the coaching staff, but that’s where I’m at. I’ve said a hundred times already that I feel kind of bad for him because he probably thought he was coming to a kick ass team (finally) and it’s been anything but that.

And I’m just tired of Sheed. He helped us get our championship (and we couldn’t have done it without him, obviously) but that was 4 long years ago. He’s not the same player, we don’t have the same complimentary players (read: Big Ben), and he does some bone head things that he didn’t use to do when we played with killer instinct. So thanks for the good times, Sheed, but I’m on the “tired of your schtick” bus.

Petey,

first, hate is a pretty strong word. I would say “from the time the trade was announced no one on this site has respected AI’s game”. I don’t hate the guy, and I’ve been the most critical of him on this very site.

He’s not the missing piece of the puzzle for this 59 win team from last season, that is clear.

Also, since you’re trying to pin all Pistons’ fans that come here hatred on AI AND Rasheed and not specifically AI, you’re just trying to deflect. A majority of Pistons’ fans do not hate Rasheed Wallace, we have not hated him, he has been the co-centerpiece of our favorite team’s run from 2004 until now. Do we want him to play more to his strength, in the post? Yes. Most of us actually feel that he cannot be stopped in the post. His “basketball intelligence” is most evident when he’s in the post.

And then for the final knock on us by claiming “Joey D” will bring a 34 win team to town with Millsap or Boozer with Stuckey to give us something to salivate over… all I can say to that is, at least the GM for our team has put together a contending roster on a consistent basis which is more than I can say for any GM that you’ve jocked during AI’s stay. We/I can only hope that former AI team trends of immediate success once he’s no longer on the roster continues once he’s gone from this team.

It’s obvious he doesn’t fit into the role they’ve tried to peg him into here. It’s ok… why should the coach adjust his entire approach for a guy who is only going to be on the roster for 78 games? It’s clear that this team could not compete with the roster the way it was, and unfortunately AI’s expiring contract is more valuable than AI himself…

@Garrett:
I co-sign, 100%.

“I don’t hate Iverson at all. I was really excited about the trade and thought he could really do his thing in Detroit and help us get that sense of urgency back. But it just hasn’t happened, and because of that I’m really frustrated.”

and also:

“And I’m just tired of Sheed. He helped us get our championship (and we couldn’t have done it without him, obviously) but that was 4 long years ago. He’s not the same player…”

Totally agreed. Personally, I’m more vocal about my frustrations with AI because of the fanboys that blindly worship him on this blog. They’re not Pistons fans, they won’t be here when AI leaves, and in the mean time they bring nothing but noise. Not only is this not the same Pistons team I love, it ain’t the same DBB either. But hey, the old timers are still here, and there’s plenty of new talent (Joel, Bill Higgins, etc), and Kevin S. has been kicking ass and taking names with his posts.

As for Rasheed, I’m also tired of him. But dammit I love the guy— and I’ll love the guy in every jersey he wears for the rest of his career, be it royal blue and white or otherwise.

In Piston fan history, AI will go down as an ugly anecdote. Dumars and Curry deserve most of the blame here, but Iverson has proven to be only a shell of his former self. That former self, however, was never cut out to be a champion anyway…

I for one am very happy A.i. is on our team , the cap space he’s going to give us this summer , will go along way this summer toward rebuilding our front court. A.I. and coach curryhave decimated this teams confidence , I believe were in the 14th lottery spot right now ,with a brutal stretch in the next 7 or 8 games . Will probably lose 6 maybe 7 of those, bringing us down to maybe the 10th or 11 th spot, with a little luck and A.I.‘s help we should be able to drop to the 6th or 7th spot by year end. Then hopefully we’ll really get lucky , and win the number one pick, we take Blake Griffin , then go after Okur , best center available and were back in bussiness. All part of Joe Dumars master plan.

“But, of course, there was tremendous hatred for Iverson on this site from the minute the trade was announced. The hatred wasn’t in response to the team’s record – it long preceded it.”
-Petey

I, and clearly many others, disagree. I think you’re falling back on a pretty easy and lousy excuse. Even Matt Watson, the guy who you think “doesn’t understand AI and doesn’t know anything about basketball”, wrote a piece after the trade saying that he had warmed to it and understood the reasoning behind it. The majority of the regular posters here were more or less happy with it (the only thing people unanimously quibbled with was AI getting Billups jersey number). So there was never the big swell of “hate” toward AI that you describe. That is totally not true, and its a shame that you can’t see what is the true: the majority of the people here did not, and still don’t “hate” AI. We’re just upset that trading for him has made us a much worse team.

It’s possible to believe that AI is a bad fit here, but that his bad-fittingness is not primarily his fault. Or at least that’s what I believe. Debating his whole history — “he took a bunch of stiffs to the NBA finals and is the 3rd leading scorer in league history” vs. “he’s never won anything, he never could play defense, and plus now he’s slow” — well, we’ve been there/done that. We all saw the meltdown against the Bulls that happened without Iverson, and the meltdown against the Celtics in game 6 last year that happened pre-Iverson.

Then again, I don’t blame Chris Webber, or at least not mainly him, for us losing a couple of years ago.

Somebody will spend real money on Iverson next year. I don’t think it will be or should be Detroit, but I wish him well.

That BS does not deserve the thoughtful responses that Garrett, MP, Boney, Defor and Toledo Joe just provided.

“If you think Morey cares about PER, you’re even more clueless than I thought, kevin s, and I already think you’re pretty damn clueless…”

Do you have any evidence that he doesn’t? Is there any reliable stastical measure that indicates AI is not simply a slightly above average offensive talent?

“But, of course, there was tremendous hatred for Iverson on this site from the minute the trade was announced. "

Not true. The problem is that you equate someone wondering whether AI is a downgrade over Chauncey (which he is, by any objective measure) with hatred for AI.

Since then, however, AI has vastly underperformed his expectations, has failed to play any defense, and skipped practice. So when the Pistons stumble, you can absolutely expect him to be a fallguy.

I’ve had very little negative to say about Sheed, personally. I think he’s much better than AI because he plays at both ends of the floor.

Here’s my take on AI, for better or worse. He’s the greatest streetball player ever, and I love his heart, but his skills don’t 100% translate to his team being successful in the NBA. He’s basically at his best on a bad team, where he can assert his will on a game, and wring enough wins to get a low seed and get bounced in 5 games or so. Kind of like his career with the Sixers and Thuggets.

It’s getting clearer and clearer (although some of us saw it before others) that trading for AI was solely about the future. What you should get from this is that Dumars is only interested in rings. Remember, he was with the Bad Boys when they declined so quickly in ’93. He knows.

From Knickblogger (in the comments) at the time of the deal…

This pretty clearly favors Denver this year, and really, it does a wonderful job of restructuring their roster.

That said, I can’t recall ever seeing a better cap-clearing move (from a PR perspective) than this move by Dumars. Who clears cap room while tricking fans into thinking you’re still trying to compete?

Well done, Dumars.

Mike Payne has said it best so enough with rest.

i think he’ll go to lakers in the off season mayb celtics though but only if they dont win it all at the end of the season, lakers play alot of offence and that fits his style.