They said it …

I’m still not convinced that AI running the Zoo Crew wouldn’t make us better. We’ve been trying to force a square peg into a round hole. Let’s give him a chance to work out in a role that would be more suited to him. If he doesn’t make the team any better coming off the bench or if he complains about playing time, then I’ll finally be convinced that we’re actually worse with AI. For now, I’ll just believe that it has more to do with an incredible mishandling of talent and roles.

While its a snowball’s chance in hell that Iverson will sit for the rest of the season, I’d love to see Bynum as our 3rd man in the backcourt.

what’s up fellas? Hell of a game today.. If we play like that every game no one will beat us..

Walter Herrmann said it well:

"To us, we try to play really good because two weeks ago we play really really bad. So, our last 3 games maybe we started to play really good…we need to play like this if we want to get the ring."

This is sound strategy.

Of course Hermann knows best. Did you see him hitting fadeaways in pierce’s grill. Besides he taught that Ginobili fella everything he knows about the game of baloncesto.

dudes i was at this game today, Hermann was shutting the crowd up so nicely, Rip and Tay were quieting the crowd all day.

Must have been great to see the Pistons shutting down the Celtics in their own building, rban. I see a few more big road wins in the coming weeks.

Seemed like every time the crowd got up, we buried one. It was nice remembering what it felt like to be a good team. It’s been a while…

I think Detroit needs to make a run at Drew Gooden. I hated the guy in Cleveland, I hated him in Chicago but… he is a solid rebounder, he is an irritant

only if he does not have that patch of hair on the back of his head anymore…

that thing is more annoying then anything…

you get Drew Gooden and, if healthy, you’ve got a guy who can be your 4th big off the bench… Kwame and Amir can continue to be buried and you’ve got a good rebounder in there while Sheed and Dyess kick back for 8 minutes a game (since MCIAFI wants to play them both 40 minutes)

oh and… this is hot:

http://www.mitchellandness.com/Products/Detroit-Pistons-1989-Jersey—-Rick-Mahorn__7226-303-88RMAHO.aspx

Both Joe Smith and Drew Gooden got bought out today, and I think both would be good additions to our frontcourt. I’m with Boney on the Drew Gooden thing— I had the exact same idea when I saw he was being bought out on Sportcenter tonight. He’s still young, he’s an excellent rebounder, has range to around 16 feet, and plays above average post defense. I’m on that badwagon f’SHO.

Curry doesn’t play the bigs they do have. I don’t see this happening, but he would be an major upgrade over amir and kwame.

1) We need AI to buy in if we want to actually do something in the playoffs. I will miss MFWB though. I hope we can use him more next year (I think he has a player option?)

2) I would be surprised if we got either Joe Smith or Gooden. Smith is pretty much guaranteed to go to Cleveland and we just traded Acker to get under the luxury tax deadline. I don’t think Joe is gonna go over the tax unless he really thinks we have a legit shot at a Ship. The last two games have been nice, but I gotta think he’s skeptical. Plus, Gooden would probably rather sign with San Antonio or Orlando.

3) Hey David Stern, you’ve really followed through on your pledge to be cool. Appreciate that. I hope your boy steps in and tears it up as sixth man. It could be lethal and it would definitely increase his market value going into next season.

I feel that Iverson is at a crossroad for the rest of his career right now. If he’s willing to accept a smaller role with the Pistons this year (a team that seems to be better without him starting), he should have a job with a team next year (not with the Pistons) that feels like they’re a potential contender that’s just looking for one more piece. But, if he starts trouble and causes trouble because he’s not a starter, he might not even be in the league next year. He’s said he thinks he’s most effective when he has an offense that’s built for him, and who’s going to want to build a team around an aging headcase. He needs to pull himself together and realize what he has to offer to teams in the Association right now, and realize he’s not “The Man” anymore. Iverson has never been the best player on a title team and never will be. The rest of this season is his chance to prove he still has some value.

@David Stern, Colin:
Agreed, much respect to you, david stern— I agree with Colin, I hope to see AI flourish in his new role and I hope the association is terrified of this team as a result. I hope you and other AI fans can find a ton of excitement in the coming games, seeing your boy do what he is known for and leading the zoo crew to dominance. Like Colin said, much respect man.

The one thing I think is abundantly clear in all this is that the Piston Vets absolutely loathe Allen Iverson, especially because he cost them their bud Chauncey.

Waive AI, he’s a loser

mikey curry and ai… the ball is in your court. get it together.
   still not getting the amir benching.
      the two wins are sweet but… ?
since amir isn’t aloud to play
   i am on board with going after gooden. i definitely respect him from the cleveland days. but no weird hair stuff, beards or patches.

Woah…. it sounds like AI has gone from coming in off the bench to sliding totally off the bench.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime?page=dime-090302

vets don’t like being made to look bad on offense and defense, which is what ai does to talented players. i hope that working with guys who have much less game of their own they’ll be able to conform around ai and do what is necessary to make his style of basketball successful.

i worry though, part of what makes rip useful is the structure of his game. you know where all three options are when he runs through a screen. ai is chaos, and with less experienced players like max or amir i worry that they’ll go for the rebound on his third shot fake instead of his shot. basically, as much as he embarrassed the starting unit, i worry he’ll embarrass the bench worse.

admittedly though, this comes from the “nothing good will ever come from allen iverson” mindset i’ve had for most of the past decade. who knows, in this new bench role he may actually find his true calling. maybe he, amir and afflalo will run like gazelles.

either way i wouldn’t waive him unless we got a signed guarantee that he’d sign with another eastern contender. the cavs preferably as i think we can already beat the magic and have no real hope of beating the celts. but if ai is a cav i think we have a shot at them.

omg, there’s a poll on the daily dime as well:

Are the Pistons making the right move by moving AI to the bench?

93% say yes!

I think the other 7% is just Petey voting over and over and over again.

Not many games to go now and I fear that it has all come a little too late. Here’s hoping we get Orlando IF we can somehow keep this little vibe going.

Somehow this feels like s false dawn…

Laughton, Atlanta’s only 3.5 games ahead of us. That shouldn’t be too much to overcome with our remaining schedule.

If any franchise can handle the “controversy” of AI coming off the bench, it’s Detroit. I think for the first time in his career he’s on a team that trumps his superstardom. When he was in Philly and Denver it was AI and the rest of the team, and people had to bow down to his awesomeness. Now? Not so much. The players and the fans are strong-willed and used to winning, and if that means AI has to come off the bench for that to happen, people are going to support it 100% because that means wins. Detroit fans don’t care to see AI score 27 ppg every night and play like a junior varsity team while Charlotte runs circles around them. For once I don’t think AI can throw his weight around with his “star power”. If he says, “But I’m AI! I’m a future hall of famer!” Detroit fans will say, “So what?” and I don’t think he’s used to that at all. Hopefully he can adjust and help us keep the chemistry alive.

It felt great being there, i had an awesome trip, we went to NYC and the Boston for the game, i ate at the ESPN zone in times square and watched us once again knock off Orlando, amazing time.

Then we headed to Boston the next day, had some great seats, and the Garden was rocking, but time after time, we shut that crowp up, I stood up in all my D-town gear shushing the crowd.

Hermann had the place in dis-belief, destroying Marbury on the block. We just stood there like “what? you didnt know he could do that?”

Honestly, if we land the 6th seed, I see us taking care of Orlando no problem— even Van Gundy admits they’re like our “little brother.” We pretty much own them.

Then that gets us Cle/Bos in the second round… whatever. We’ve gotta play them anyway. I’m worried about the 4/5 seeds, if/when we land one of them. I think Atlanta and Philly both pose matchup problems for us, and I would love to not see either of them in the first round.

Pistons P.A. announcer John Mason is featured in the March 9th issue of ESPN The Magazine. John answers questions for the “5 Things You Should Know About…” section.

Brad, I was floored reading Curry’s comments in the dime today. AI is going to play Will Bynum’s minutes and that’s it? To even suggest that takes some ahem manhood. Micheal Curry, bravo, you have grown yourself a pair.

@Joel:

I totally agree with you that I would prefer getting Orlando to playing Philly or Atlanta in the first round.

I don’t understand what the big deal about playing Philly in round 1 is. They’re not that good. I really don’t want to play Atlanta, they’re a bad matchup for us I think. But really? We’re worried about Andre Iguodala, Andre Miller, Sam Dalembert, Thad Young, Lou Williams, and Willie Green (he’s from Detroit you know). Prince is like Iguodala’s kryptonite. He always shuts him down.

If MCIAFI can’t figure out a way to get something out of Iverson he should be fired by the end of the week. I don’t care about how bad AI has been, it is up to the coach to get the best out of his players and he clearly is not doing this. What has happened is that the old core has gone back to doing what they want and coaching themselves. Curry has been helpless and sees that there will likely be some success. However, they won’t get very far and nobody can tell me that they wouldn’t be better if they get AI out of AI. I’ve never been an AI fan, but the guy has been amazing in his career and not figuring a way to get some positive results has to go on the coach.

Um… Philly took us to 6 very tough games last year, when we were a MUCH better team. They’ve only gotten better, they’re STILL much more athletic than we are, and they run run run, while we play at by far the slowest pace in the league. It just smells like a trap series, the way last year’s series almost was.

Give AI Will Bynum minutes? Screw that- I say give him Darko minutes.

Wait Willie Green is from Detroit? Next thing you’re gonna tell me is that he always has big games against his hometown.

Detroit needs AI to play semi-significant minutes off the bench. Yes, him not starting makes the starters better. But remember, even with excellent starters the last three years, Detroit couldn’t get out of the East. Why not? Because they got NOTHING FROM THEIR BENCH.

And let’s face it, this year’s Celts and Cavs (assuming everyone is healthy) are both at least as good as the teams that eliminated Detroit in the past three years.

So, the only way Detroit could possibly do real damage in the playoffs is if (i) the starters have finally gotten it together with this lineup (good chemistry, Stuckey returns to early season form, and the front court starters aren’t too worn down) and (ii) have a better bench than in recent years.

The most realistic, and maybe only realistic, way of getting better bench play is if AI does a good job off the bench. I’m not saying that WILL happen, but I think it can happen (like Adam said, it’s in AI’s interest to be successful this year), and I can’t see how Detroit gets far in the playoffs without that happening.

Both Atlanta and Philly are extremely athletic. I’d rather not see either of them in the 1st round. I wouldn’t be as worried if the Zoo Crew had a little more burn this year. We could throw that unit out there and let them run with the other team’s young guys.

Know what feels good? Now we’re talking about playoffs instead of lottery picks. That feels good…

I dunno, I’m not that scared of Philly. I checked the stats and we’re far more even with them than I originally thought. I’d rather play Orlando, but am still not that bothered by a potential matchup with the Sixers. I don’t have any reason to feel that way, I admit.

Well it’s pretty amazing that all of a sudden the Pouty Punky Pistons remember how to play defense, play aggressively and get to the free throw line, something thaey were doing with AI inthe lineup before “poor Rip” went to the bench. It was clear that during the eight game losing streak “Rips boys” stopped playing on purpose to prove the point that they can’t adapt to anything but the same old DETROIT BASKETBALL.If they had just continued to play like they know how to and stoped pouting,they would not be 29-29. AI adjusted his game to fit in with these punks, but they were not willing to play with him no matter what he does.Chauncey’s gome get over it!!!!

I agree with Toledo Joe for the most part. Not necessarily on his assessment of our bench in the past years – Max played very well in the playoffs last year and Stuck did pretty darn well for a rookie. We saw more of Theo and Hunter than I would have liked last year, but even they did as well as would be expected. I think the starters were more of the reason for our flame out, especially last year, than our bench was. But I totally agree on the assessment for this year, that we have little of making any noise if we can’t get anything out of AI. Are we really going to do any better this year if we’re basically the same team as last year only minus Chauncey and with a far worse coach?

I dunno, I’m not that scared of Philly. I checked the stats and we’re far more even with them than I originally thought.

Not only that, but do you remember how poorly Chauncey handled Andre Miller last year? Chauncey always had a problem with bigger, tougher PGs and Miller played very well against him. With Stuckey as our starting PG, we actually might match up better against Philly this year than we did last year.

Of course, two big wins does not a resolution make— and MC is still AFI, but player-to-player, DET has an advantage.

@ToledoJoe:
Detroit couldn’t get out of the East. Why not? Because they got NOTHING FROM THEIR BENCH.

We got nothing from our bench because Flip didn’t play the bench. We had one of the best benches in the league last year, and if given a chance this bench could outplay it. His rotations went from 12 to 7 in a split second, and he relied on weak vets like Ratliff when he should have gone to Max/Amir. I practically broke my TV watching Flip put in Ratliff when we were being outhustled and needed a brutal energy burst.

@MP:

So after reading your post about Andre Miller being bigger than Chauncey I decided to find out how big Andre actually is.

Apparently wikipedia mistook Andre Miller for Andre the Giant listing him at 315lbs. 6’2", 315 is quite a force and I can understand where Chauncey had problems.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andre_Miller

@Sean W.:
Hahahahaha

BTW …

Check out the new McDonald’s ad featuring Rip Hamilton. See ad banner on the right hand side.

http://www.sportingnews.com/nba

@Sean W.:
Awesome find. Personally, I’d love for Rip to wear this mask.

Shinons and Mike Payne:

Yes, Stuckey did well in the playoffs last year, and yes, Max had some very good moments. I also agree that Flip didn’t play the bench much, leading to complaints about his coaching (little did we know what lay ahead).

But look, I’ll say it. ALL YEAR last year our bench was weak and for that matter, EVERY year post ‘04 championship, our bench has been weak/unproductive. And it’s not clear to me that was all, or even mainly, the fault of not playing them enough. Giving Carlos Delfino/Mo Evans/Flip Murray/Darvin Ham/Nazr Mohammed/etc. didn’t work for Flip (or Larry in his last year) when they sometimes tried it during the regular season, and guys like Jarvis Hayes just disappeared in the playoffs.

I don’t think we disagree much. My point is that we need a productive bench to advance in the playoffs, and I’m still not convinced we have much offensive firepower off the bench (much as I loved Herrmann’s 11-point quarter yesterday). AI could be . . . wait for it . . . the answer to that problem. Or he might not be. But if he isn’t, I don’t see Detroit beating the Cavs or Celts, let along both.

@MP:

RIP DOOM!

Iverson is out for tomorrow’s game, per this ESPN report:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3945657

(Hat-tip to Piston Powered)

@ToledoJoe:
But look, I’ll say it. ALL YEAR last year our bench was weak and for that matter, EVERY year post ‘04 championship, our bench has been weak/unproductive.

Our bench was huge last year— we here on DBB and even the national sports media was hyping the Zoo Crew as the best Pistons bench in recent history. In fact, last year’s bench outscored the 2004 bench for most of the season.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/marty_burns/01/10/pistons.reserves/

Whether you look at the stats or just watched the games, it was evident that the 2007-08 Pistons bench was among the league’s best— and the best we’ve had in a long time (and quite possibly, better so than 2004— with only Memo complicating the math).

They disappeared in the playoffs because Flip shortened his rotation. However, they were the top story of the 2007-08 regular season, and the main reason we were able to 1) increase our wins over the prior season and 2) drop our starters minutes so significantly.

Bravo! shinons. Your comments are the most sensible and intelligent ones. Everybody else is talking nonsense. It is ovious that they never accepted AI from the begining. 2 games without AI don’t prove anything. They just are spoiled and upset that Chauncey is gone. They have been lagging because of it. I don’t buy any of this bull, because all along I’ve known what was happening. They forget AI took them on a 7 game win when Rip was out. Lakers, Spurs, Cavs, Nuggests, Clippers, Orlando etc. Curry is just as dumb as these brutual fans are. At first I wanted AI to sit the rest of the season, but now I want him to come out and play like we know he can, and make the starters and the coaches look like a fool. They just playing hard now because they may not make the playoffs. They need to redeem themselves. And they’re blaming their player with the best stats on that team. I don’t appreciate this at all. I am a huge fan of Iverson.

AI has a problem. Judging from the latest, sounds like he’s not going to want to come off the bench. Sounds like he wants to get bought out, but I doubt that’s happening. What it has come down to for AI is preserving his contract value for next year. It’s not happening coming off the bench, and it’s not happening getting bought out. Tough spot for him. And the longer this goes on, the more he becomes known as “AI’s expiring contract” like a previous poster wisely noted.

I’m not really an AI hater, it’s just that his skills don’t mesh with what the formula is for being a NBA champion. No doubt, he’s the greatest streetball player who ever lived. I mean, I don’t see him playing for Boston, or San Antonio, or Cleveland. Historically, physical teams who play physical defense are more successful in the playoffs than those which rely primarily on offense. Which comes to the question, what has he won, and how far has his teams go in the tournament? He’s at his best on a bad team, he can make them a .500 club, and sell tickets.

The team has had 50 games or so of the AI experiment, and I think this much should be clear by now. I’m still not that high on MC as a coach, but since AI’s absence, he’s certainly, strangely become a better coach. Hmmmmmmm…..

Let’s say AI’s back is troubling him so much, he’s out for the season. It’s the same situation we had before the trade, #3 in the East, good enough to beat Orlando, not good enough to beat Cleveland or Boston.

Where art thou fanboys of Iverson?

sweetrose = fanboy

I think Pistons needs to get me to be able to get over the hamp..coz I am a good rebounder and I can make it rain coming of the bench…also Rashid Wallace production needs to go up if we have to get to the promise land..ship AI out or buy his contract because of chemistry….I think Pistons is going to perform wonders this year and ppl are going to wonder how they rise from falling….

At the end of the day, this will dtermine what kind of contract AI gets next year. NOBODY is going to sign a 30+ undesized shooting guard and change their entire offensive philosophy around him. He’s freaking nuts if he thinks otherwise.

AI’s opportunity to play in the NBA for the next 3-5 years is as a 6th man who can probably seek a contract of 7-10M (and I think that might be generous). At worst it will demonstrate AI’s “character” and doing what’s best for the team talk as fraudulent or true. The fact is, if he comes in as the 6th man and lights it up and leads us to some wins, he’ll have some suitors this summer. If he doesn’t accept the role, not very many teams will be calling.

So, he can play for a winner as 6th man and make a comfortable NBA salary or he can jack up a bunch of shots for a med-level team with no hope of a chip and make a comfortable NBA salary. It will come down to shots or rings. What say you, AI?

@sweetrose:
“They forget AI Stuckey took them on a 7 game win when Rip was out”

Fixed that for you.

That’s right Sweetrose, and I mean every word of what I said.
The Pouty Pistons need to stop hating on AI and play with him! Everyone is waiting for him to show that he is upset about coming off the bench. I hope he doesn’t and shows how much he’s matured, so these fools can stop talking about the AI of 8 years ago. Obviously they have not been watching how he has played and listened to his comments for the last 3 years!

Ill say it now like I said it before. Detroit thank you for taking AI off of our (Denver) hands. I got fam in Philly who warned me bout the Answer. Yes he gives you 25 exciting points but he gives up 40 in return cuz he plays no D. AI can only find success when he dribbles the air out the ball & throws up a contested shot as the clock winds down. Joe D do yourself a favor, see if Memphis or the Wiz are interested & take whatever they offer. Trust me, you’ll be happy in the long run & once again. Thanks for sending Chauncey home where he belongs.

I wonder if these new fanboys are just the same ones with new handles?

DvusRai – The trade deadline is past so neither the Wiz nor the Grizz can offer us anything.

How come no one is pointing out that the Pistons ran off like 7 straight when Rip was injured?

DvusRai- Actually, Chauncey’s home was here in Detroit. Remember it was your organization who gave up on him once already before you got him back again early this season.

Damn the “no takebacks” on trades in the NBA.

Colin, I was thinking the exact same thing. And this Demoney-Drew character types like he’s on acid. I tripped out a little just trying to read his/her/its post.

And please, AI fans out there, explain to me how a team is noticeably better when they play without a future hall of famer?

I’ve watched him his entire career, just like any other fan of an Eastern Conference team this decade— Iverson’s teams have always been the first-round punching bag of the EC, where you knew they would make the playoffs but would never get anything done. Never scary, not even once. That Finals team was merely the best team in possible the worst conference of all time. There’s a reason last year’s Sixer team took us to 6 games and AI’s Sixers could never get past 5— the Sixers no long have Allen Iverson on their team making them predictable and easily defended.

Like I’ve said before, this season makes me look at his entire career in a different light. I’ve never given a shit about PPG as a stat— it’s all about wins, baby— and really, all AI’s got going for him is that one statistic. And as Jerry Stackhouse proved when he was with the ’Stones, scoring a lot of points on a lot of shots does not a good player make.

Denver’s resurgence has a lot more to do with Nene (who, when healthy is infinitely better than Camby) than it does with Billups.

*possibly
*longer

Actually, in Larry Brown’s last season with the 76ers, we took you guys to 6 games in the second round :)

Oh yeah! Silly me.

And for the record, AI’s been to the second round 3 times with Philadelphia and took us to the finals once.

More than Garnett, Allen or Pierce did on their own.

Joel,

You are clearly an idiot, The Sixers were a First AND Second round punching bag. Please, never ever make such a stupid mistake again.

/sarcasm

Jason,

Fair enough. And now he’s on a team with 2 other all-stars and good young players and we dropped below .500 which kind of makes it seem like he’s not very good at playing with others.

@Jason

Nene absolutely has been a beast this year, but there’s one reason people are talking about them actually making noise in the WC this year— Chauncey Billups. If they still had AI AND Camby AND Nene was healthy, they’re STILL a lock for a first round exit. Hell they might even get swept again.

They’re still not an excellent defensive team, but they’re a much IMPROVED defensive team, and again, there’s one reason for this— the guy with the ball in his hands, their leader, demands that they play defense. Not to mention their assists are up and turnovers are down. Again, this isn’t because of Nene. I’d even argue that Nene’s 65% shooting percentage might have a little bit to do with an expert point guard giving him the ball in the perfect spots consistently…

AI’s actually done better than Kobe has without Shaq too. And McGrady with any of his teams.

Short of San Antonio, Shaq in LA, Shaq in Miami and Detroit and Boston after Ainge/McHale collusion, almost every team has been pretty unsuccessful in recent NBA history.

AI’s definitely had an awful season, but you can’t ignore Hamilton’s sulking, Curry’s ineptitude and Stuck being either really raw or way overvalued (I haven’t seen him play enough games absent AI to know).

Pistons with AI: 23-28, -2.1 ppg.
Pistons with out AI: 6-1, +8.14 ppg.

To be fair, two of those six wins came with Billups. However, that still leaves us being 4-1 (all on the road) with a +7.6 ppg in games AI doesn’t play.

I really hope Curry has the balls to limit AI’s time on the court…I’m with the general consensus of about 24 mpg.

Hm. Don’t be too quick to complement me. These fanboiz so quick to point out a win steak in which Stuck dominated the ball are just as quick to forget the 8 game losing streak in which AI dominated the ball. They talk about how great his “comments” have been but forget comments like: "It would be tough for me," he said "I’ve never come off the bench in my life … and I’ve been sacrificing since I came to Detroit."

I don’t have my hopes up for the Iverson off the bench era. If it works (and works really effing well!) we may be able to compete with Boston and Cleveland. If it doesn’t work, the season is a wash.

@Jason (again)

You make an excellent point. One more reason why I can’t stand the Celtics and their arrogance.

I feel like I’ve had this discussion at least 2,000 times. I’m reverting to my earlier policy of purposeful ignorance.

Oh yeah, I forgot. They’re also really quick at pointing out a playoff performance from 2001 in which they made it to the Finals in an incredibly weak Eastern Conference and nearly got swept by a barely interested Lakers. Great job with that.

Don’t see how AI’s done better than Kobe without Shaq though— two wins in the Finals are, I think, better than one.

@ Joel

AI never had a healthy KMart and Nene together (and Camby is a liability more than help). The fact of the matter is, Anthony Carter was the point guard and while he’s actually better than you’d expect, he’s Anthony Carter.

When Steve Blake came in to play point and Nene was healthy (but still no Kmart) the Nuggs ran like 10 straight to end the season and played San Antonio (who eventually swept the Cavs) as tough as anyone in those playoffs (every single game was close and there are quotes somewhere from Duncan et al. citing it as their toughest series of the playoffs).

This was with a still developing Kleiza and JR Smith (who are both much better two years later).

Nene is a beast no matter whose playing point. I have no clue if the video is anywhere, but if you can find tape of that San Antonio series, he actually played even better than he is now.

@Jason:
Actually, in Larry Brown’s last season with the 76ers, we took you guys to 6 games in the second round

And in three of those 6 games, we without our starting point guard— Chauncey Billups.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3174/gamelog;_ylt=AqwOLkjDU2dzh0uECaLrALwpPKB4?year=2002

“And they’re blaming their player with the best stats on that team. I don’t appreciate this at all. I am a huge fan of Iverson.”

AI does not have the best stats on the team. At all.

@Joel

Absent Shaq, Kobe has lost in the 1st round twice and then got absolutely humiliated in the NBA Finals to a team that would get mauled by the 01 Lakers.

Say what you will about the 4-1 outcome, but those Sixers were injured and still played the Lakers tight every game. I’ll take their 5 game exit against in 01 over the 08 Lakers any day.

AI does not have the best stats on the team. At all.

By “best stats,” he means lowest fg%, lowest 3pt%, most fg attempts, and the most turnovers per game the Pistons have had since the 2004-05 season. That’s a pretty impressive combination.

AI has been horrible as a starter. Anyone who cheers for the Pistons rather than AI sees that. But does anyone really disagree with the thought that any chance of us making noise in the playoffs pretty much rests on AI fitting in off the bench?

2 things:

1) Jason, what you don’t seem to understand is that not one of us here care about where AI’s been or how much success he’s had before he got here. There’s plenty of evidence to suggest that AI isn’t working right now. You say that just about every team without a superstar in recent NBA history hasn’t had success with the exception of Detroit. I’m not sure if you’re aware that this here, is in fact a Detroit Pistons blog populated with Detroit Pistons fans. Why do you think we’re all a little bitter about the whole AI thing? Maybe because it isn’t working? I don’t know. This shit drives me crazy.

2) Whoever it was (I think david stern) that said they wouldn’t be surprised if AI’s back bothered him the rest of the season, I submit this as evidence that you are correct.

i tend to believe that this team never wanted answer on their roster..

@Jason:
No one’s talking about the 7 game win streak because it will probably go down in history as the worst 7 game win streak of all time. We played a string of awful teams, and almost every game was either a dog fight from start to finish, or if we had a lead we would blow it in the fourth quarter and barely hang on. Believe me, I watched every game in that win streak, and the individual games and the streak as a whole, definitely should not be bragged about.

Also, Jason, have you considered that “Nene’s Resurgence” aside from him getting healthy, could possibly have something to do with the fact that he has a PG who gets him the ball in the paint (where Nene is a great finisher) and this PG is a big enough threat from 3 point range that it’s hard for teams to double the post? No? That didn’t occur to you…? Huh.

With Billups as the PG, a proper distribution of shots occurs- where the “bigs” take most of interior shots, and the “smalls” take more shots from the perimeter (and are more efficient with those shots). This is logical because who is going to be a better finisher within 5 feet of the basketball- Nene (6’10") or AI (6’0")?

With AI as Denvers “PG” the bigs had to take up some of the jump shooting slack, because otherwise teams would just pack the paint and make AI shoot deep and mid-range jumpers all day. This was a role that Camby was a little too happy to fulfill (he likes shooting J’s), but that doesn’t change the fact that he performed that role (the “jump shooting big” role) out of necessity.

Finally, Nene is not “infinitely better” than Camby. Camby is a much, much better rebounder and a better help defender/weakside shot-blocker, while Nene is a better low-post scorer and better 1v1 defender, but with Billups as the PG, Nene has a role that suits him perfectly.

Just seeing how we played the last 3 games sans AI, can you imagine how good we’d be if Joe had pulled off an AI for Shaq trade? I honestly believe we’d legitimately contend for a title this season. It’s pretty much a concensus that the only thing we’re missing is a big inside presence…

@Gabe

Uh. Nene’s resurgence is entirely to do with the fact that he’s healthy. When he played San Antonio at 100%, with Blake/AI as his guards, he was, as I said before, even better than he is now.

As for Camby, he “steals” rebounds. Part of the reason that Melo’s rebounds are up is that Camby isn’t using his long arms to snatch uncontested rebounds from his teammates. When it comes down to fighting the other team, Camby is about as useful as used tooth-pick.

He’s an awful on-the-ball defender, he can’t defend the pick-and-roll, he gives up soooo many easy layups on account of his weak-side “help” (he pads his stats for blocks) and he demands to dribble the ball the entire length of the floor at least two or three times a game.

Truthfully, the best thing I saw out of Marcus Camby was his ability to pass at the top of the key.

And AI never played point for Denver (sans a few games where Diawara started at the 2). It was Steve Blake and Anthony Carter.

Joel just be quite and I mean Hush..if u want come up so you can get beat down…..u sound so bullysh….Nobody in Detroit gives a damn abt AI…he is a thug and was even lucky to be in NBA…at least he removed his corn-row…that was his ghost still huntin him….read my words fox jokes aside….The Pistons are going to be the champs this year…I am abt to sign a contract with them…wachout there now…

See what I’m talking about? If you’ve ever taken acid and tried to read, Demoney-Drew’s posts are what it looks like.

@Demoney-Drew:
If you do sign with the Pistons, will you keep shaving that retarded neck-stache thing you got goin’ on there?

/oh, and I like the ellipsis too…

Ohoo you’re talking about that neck-stache that ur sister hyptonize me? most def ur sister will shave it…especially when I put my foot up on ur az…

sigh
Jason, if “Nene’s resurgence” is the reason why Denver is better than in years past, and if Nene is so much better than Camby, then why did Denver win 45 games in 2006-2007 with both of them (Nene played over 1700 minutes that season), and then won 50 games the following year without Nene (and only Camby and Kmart as their bigs)??? Seems like if Camby is such a crippling liability, a team with him as their main big, and without Nene to back him up, would suck.

Also, in 2006-07, when Denver heroically lost 4-1 against the Spurs in the first round, and when you say “Nene was playing even better then he is now!!” Please scroll down to the playoffs to compare Nene’s production to Camby’s:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DEN/2007_games.html

I’ll sum it up:

Game 1:
Nene- 13 pts on 5/12 fga’s, with 12 rebs, 2 stls, 2 asts, 1 blk, and 5 to’s.
Camby- 8 pts on 4/9 fga’s, with 10 rebs, 2 stls, 3 asts, 2 blks, 2 to’s

Game 2:
Nene- 17 pts on 8/15 fga’s, with 7 rebs
Camby- 10 pts on 4/11 fga’s with 18 rebs

Game 3:
Nene- 18 pts on 7/11 fga’s, with 7 rebs
Camby- 6 pts on 2/7 fga’s, with 10 rebs

Game 4:
Nene- 18 pts on 7/9 fga’s, with 7 rebs, 3 asts
Camby- 10 pts on 5/8 fga’s, with 17 rebs, 3 asts, and 4 blks

Game 5:
Nene- 10 pts on 4/6 fga’s, with 6 rebs, 2 asts
Camby- 4 pts on 2/10 fga’s, with 19 rebs, 2 asts, 5 blks

They are obviously very different players with different strengths and weaknesses, but taking the series as a whole, I think Nene’s and Camby’s contributions are about equal.

Also, your “he steals rebounds” argument is kinda strange, I’ve never heard of a coach telling his bigs not to get a rebound that is within their area. Did Camby steal all his 74 rebounds in those five games against the Spurs?

What you are seeing with Carmelo’s rebounding going up is a reverse “diminishing returns,” where now that Denver replaced a great rebounder (Camby) with a less good rebounder (Nene), there are more rebounds to be had. That doesn’t mean Camby was selfishly “stealing” them, it’s just a result of rebounding being his biggest strength as a player, and that not being a relative strength of Nene’s.

Jason, so basically what you’re saying is that because of Camby’s selfishness and his inability to play on-the-ball defense, his team is better off without him?

Mike Payne:

Interesting numbers and thanks for the links. I don’t want to beat a dead horse, because I think we mostly agree, but (i) saying Detroit’s bench was the best Detroit bench since ‘04 isn’t saying much; and (ii) I think Detroit’s bench was, in fact, overhyped last year. The Zoo Crew had some good moments in the regular season, but it was nothing like ’04. Then in the playoffs, yes, Stuckey stepped up big, and yes Maxiell had some good moments.

Our disagreement might be sort of chicken-and-egg. I think Flip shortened the bench because some of the bench guys were, frankly, stinking up the joint in the early playoff games: see especially Jarvis Hayes, the guy I was really rooting for because my personal hobbyhorse since ‘04 has been the lack of a decent backup SF. You may think that Flip pulled the plug on the Zoo Crew too early. We’ll never know.

The point is, though, we will need a bench to do more/play better in the playoffs. I hope/think AI can be part of that.

Mike Payne talk abt basketball u low life thug…stop talking trash on this blog…or otherwise go to maricopa county and u will see what I mean…

Banned in 3…2…

1…0….-1…-2

@Toledo Joe:
Yeah I think we’re pretty much on the same page. Especially about Hayes stinking up the joint. Personally, I was pushing hard for Herrmann over Hayes just after we traded Mohammed, which I guest blogged about here:
http://www.detroitbadboys.com/archives/2008-02-20/the-argentine-solution-why-herrmann-should-replace-hayes/

boom.

Any praise of the man with the flowing locks is good with me. The first syllable may be “her,” (um, “herr”), but the last syllable is ALL “man” (um, “mann”).

Actually, I agree with Jason about Camby being overrated. He’s a shot block chaser. I’ve read other articles about how Nene at Center has been an upgrade for Denver.

Of course, they also upgraded at the PG position too, I think.

Both sides make a valid point. Camby is overrated, as you can see he’s had no real positive impact for the Clippers when he’s played. But, yeah playing with Billups and being healthy is allowing Nene to enjoy the best season of his career. AI and Nene actually did run a pretty sick pick and roll, but Chauncey is in league in his own when it comes to PG’s. And QD, I think everyone agrees Billups is a massive upgrade over AC at the pg position.

@QD:
I’d agree with the sentiment too if I heard people constantly raving about Marcus Camby. But who is “rating” him too greatly? I agree that Nene this season is an upgrade over Camby in his previous Denver seasons, but I also think it’s a fair argument that Billups deserves to get a portion of the credit for Nene’s production (i.e. can you imagine Nene playing like this with AI at PG, dominating the ball?).

Gabe, I think all the people who hyped Camby for defensive player of the year overrated him.

But, yes Chauncey is a much better fit for that team (and the Pistons) than AI. I wasn’t trying to say that Chauncey wasn’t the main reason they’ve improved.

@david stern:
I agree with most of what you just said. Although, I read http://clipperblog.com/ occasionally, and basically everyone on that site is pretty unanimous in thinking/saying that Camby has played his heart out even though it’s just the Clippers, so already a lost cause. I think Camby trying his best is somewhat shown by the +/- stats, although again, it’s the Clippers, so it’s only how he’s been better relative to his teammates (but it does show that he can make a positive impact on his teams defense):
http://www.82games.com/0809/08LAC16.HTM#onoff

Really, the only point of downing Marcus Camby is fanboi Jason trying to poo poo last year’s team – that if only, if only AI had the supporting cast around him that Chauncey has, the Nuggets would have been contenders last year too. It’s just delusional arguments such as:
As for Camby, he "steals" rebounds. Part of the reason that Melo’s rebounds are up is that Camby isn’t using his long arms to snatch uncontested rebounds from his teammates. When it comes down to fighting the other team, Camby is about as useful as used tooth-pick.

Carmelo’s rebounding is up to 7.4 this year, as opposed to his measly 7.4 rebounds per game when Camby was stealing all of them…

All in all, what difference does it make? Whether Denver is better or worse with AI, we know the answer to that question here in Detroit. Those living in 2001 can believe what they want.

@QD:
I think you’re right that Camby definitely didn’t deserve DPOY. Still, I can’t pull the trigger on calling him overrated. I think it’s mainly that I’ve always liked players who can impact/win games without taking a single shot. Camby’s clearly not one of the all time best of those types of players- people like vintage Big Ben and Rodman, or PG’s like Kidd and Nash- there are easily better ones then Camby, but I’ll admit to being biased towards players in that mold.

Also, if you look at that 82games.com +/- link I posted above, with Camby on the floor the Clips have been a run of the mill lottery team. Without him on the floor they’ve been one of the absolute worst teams of all time. Not something to brag about, but I think it speaks well of him that he played his heart out on such a crappy team (…ahem…ahem… unlike, let’s say: Davis, Baron).

AI has the best stats on the team? hahaha

It seems the trolls have made their way to the board after seeing the link from a Celtics blog of all places…

ugh… go away fanbois

but, before you go… please make fun of “Boney” and tell me how you’re gonna stick your boney in my sister later tonight.

Definitely agree about AI for Shaq. Although, we would have had to pay him 20 mil next year and there is no guarantee that he would have been healthy/good. Would’ve been good this year, but may have hurt us down the road, because we would’ve had to compete with a lot of other teams in 2010 and lost our opportunity to fleece a desperate team this offseason. That being said, 1 in the hand beats 2 in the bush.

Definitely agree about AI for Shaq.>>

Sheed comes off the books this season. More than enough to sign Bosh this summer and still have $20 million for next summer.

Mike,

Bosh can’t be signed by Detroit this offseason…

The only tim duncan and shaq win championships argument is really annoying. 3 of the last 4 champions did not have shaq as their best player. Wade’s incredible play in 06 won miami the title. He was going to the line 20 times a game.

In a related story, it’s nearly impossible to win a title without robert horry, steve kerr, or james posey. Hey detroit is a black swan!

*did not have shaq or tim duncan

“Mike,

Bosh can’t be signed by Detroit this offseason…"

Even if he could, we certainly wouldn’t have 20 million left over. We’ll be lucky to have 20 million this year after the cap decreases. Mike clearly doesn’t know much about the salary cap.

/Petey’d

ain’t no chicken or egg with flip’s strangling the bench. i watched every game that season. when flip trusted the bench they flourished. in big games, after a string of huge wins with huge bench numbers, we’d play the jazz, play the starters 40+ and lose.

first game of the playoffs, at home against an inferior 76’ers team and flip’s asshole puckers up to a 7 man rotation and we lose. there is no chicken or egg debate necessary. he was a fool. curry may be too, but at least this is all new to him. flip made the same stupid mistakes over and over and over again.

Interesting numbers and thanks for the links. I don’t want to beat a dead horse, because I think we mostly agree, but (i) saying Detroit’s bench was the best Detroit bench since ‘04 isn’t saying much; and (ii) I think Detroit’s bench was, in fact, overhyped last year. The Zoo Crew had some good moments in the regular season, but it was nothing like ‘04. Then in the playoffs, yes, Stuckey stepped up big, and yes Maxiell had some good moments.

Our disagreement might be sort of chicken-and-egg. I think Flip shortened the bench because some of the bench guys were, frankly, stinking up the joint in the early playoff games: see especially Jarvis Hayes, the guy I was really rooting for because my personal hobbyhorse since ‘04 has been the lack of a decent backup SF. You may think that Flip pulled the plug on the Zoo Crew too early. We’ll never know.

The point is, though, we will need a bench to do more/play better in the playoffs. I hope/think AI can be part of that.
=======

This scares me, but I feel like you’re reading my mind.

We Pistons fans have clearly undervalued the importance of our bench in ’04. For example, Memo is now an All-star caliber player, and he was our 6th man. Not to mention, Corliss, James, Hunter.

Our problem has not been the returning group of starters since then, it has been the inconsistency of our bench play. Yes, Flip lost confidence in the bench when the playoffs rolled around, but he usually had some good reasons for it. I will never understand why Ratliff played more than Max last season, but I understand why players like Jarvis and Flip Murray fell out of the rotation — bad defense.

If we want to win a seven-game series against Cle/Bos/LA/SA, our bench has to produce big numbers. And if our bench as it is currently constituted is going to produce big numbers, then AI needs to find a way to score 15ish points per game in that role.

If we assume that Max keeps getting minutes and producing, Hermann keeps shooting well, and AI can get us 15 per game off the bench, then I don’t think anyone wants to plays us in a seven-game series, regardless of our regular season record and playoff seeding.

Because after all, the NBA ultimately comes down to a seven-game series, which is why I think Joe D traded for a superstar in the first place.

The argument for Shaq wasn’t that he’s incredible and would, with his abilities, single-handedly make us a contender. The argument was that he’s exactly the type of player we should’ve traded Chauncey for— a center. We need a center. We wouldn’t have had to change our gameplan at all. Sheed would be happy because he could go back to the 4 where he belongs, Dyce back to the bench, no PT for Kwame or Amir (surprise!), and no more logjam at the guard position (more PT for AA). Obviously, it’s all conjecture at this point, but Shaq most definitely would’ve put us over the top if we could’ve gotten him for AI (and Kwame, for the math).

Water under the bridge at this point, but it’s fun to think about what might’ve been (and play it out in NBA 2K9)…

@brgulker:
The thinking that the bench of the 2004 championship team was better than our more recent ones, and that they played a big role in winning the ’ship has pretty much become conventional wisdom among pistons fans. But looking at the box scores from the 2004 playoffs (especially look at the finals), IMO its pretty clear the reason that ’04 team was better then later pistons squads was all the starters were in their prime, not because the bench was especially consistent or great.

(scroll down to the very bottom and click on a particular date to see the playoff box scores)
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DET/2004_games.html

I do agree that this years pistons team will probably need more contributions from the bench if they’re going to go anywhere in the playoffs, and they’ll need more than just AI scoring (post defense from Max/Amir/Kwame might be even more important). But if it all does come together we could give some of the big teams a run for their money.

Gabe,

I appreciate your analysis of the stats, and I fully agree with your comments about our starters.

However, don’t forget that the game can’t be measured exclusively in numbers. Think of the impact plays that Hunter and James made that won’t get recorded in the state sheet — putting on a full court press that cut down the opponent’s shot clock, forcing bad passes, and essentially wreaking havoc on the defensive end.

My point is not that the ‘04 bench was better than last year’s necessarily; rather, my point is that the ’04 bench was very good.

When you couple that with your point about our starters, I think we have a very good explanation of the past 4 seasons shortcomings.

(Not to mention that last year’s bench was the best it had been in a while).

@brgulker

Agreed, I think we’re thinking the same thing- that the best part of that ’04 bench was that you knew more or less what you were getting when they came in the game. Lindsay and Mike James for great perimeter D, Elden Campbell and Okur for post D, and some Corliss for scoring punch.

Our benches the last few years, the roles haven’t been as clearly defined, or when they were, the players themselves were inconsistent- so Jarvis theoretically should have been decent in the Corliss role, but he’d go through shooting slumps too often to make up for his crappy D. Lindsay got old, so while his D was still very solid, his offense became even more of an adventure. Part of the blame for that could be on Flip for not developing roles for some of the younger players (Amir), but regardless of the circumstances, some of those guys were just never totally able to shake their inconsistency.

but yeah, IMO last years bench would have/should have been a difference maker. It sucks to never know, but I’ll always think if Flip hadn’t tightened the rotation so much in the playoffs, that we would have had a better shot of squeezing past Boston.