There are two points here. First, the idea that Tay and ‘Sheed have declined pretty much beyond salvation, at least for this team. As I said in the other thread, if that’s true, that’s really, really bad for Detroit, because that means the frontcourt needs more improvement than could realistically be done in the near or even mid-term. We have nothing like a starting SF apart from Tay; it’s not even clear Herrmann will be a good backup. And we all know what the problems have been at 4 and 5 this year. Now, just because it would be really, really bad if something is true doesn’t mean it IS true, but I still think Tay and even ’Sheed can be useful next year.

The other point is lack of vocal leadership. I think that’s probably true. I’m hoping maybe Rip could be that guy next year. If not, I’m hoping that Detroit can get some new talent that will compensate for the lack of a vocal leader.

that should be, “just because it would be really, really bad if something is true doesn’t mean it ISN’T true. . . .”

I could see Rip trying to fill that role next year. I think he really wanted to fill that role this year but felt like his legs were cut off with the trip to the bench. Whether that’s justified or not (or whether that was actually the case), who knows …

I think Rip would be justified in feeling he couldn’t be the team leader if he wasn’t starting. Maybe that’s not fair, but I think it’s reasonable to think so. Was he going to watch AI take his place but then tell AI what to do?

But if it’s going to be anyone next year, it has to be Rip, because nobody else on the team is plausible. Tay and Dyess are too quiet/nice; ‘Sheed wouldn’t want to if he could, mentally, and he can’t, mentally (although I still think he might make a decent assistant coach someday); Stuckey doesn’t have the experience; and of course it’s not going to be a current bench guy (although down the road, maybe if Afflalo is a starter, but that’s a reach). And even the best of the FAs we’ve discussed (Boozer, Gordon, Lee) don’t seem like “vocal leader” material.

I think Tay has enough stock as a gold medalist to pick up someone solid in a trade. Someone really good even, and it might even do him some good to get his place in the league shaken up a bit.

I think Tay might be a little tired/worn/burnt out. Put this into perspective, 6 straight conference finals + summer olympics + 1 full NBA season always guarding the opponents best player and playing a lot of minutes. Look at Wade after a summer of the World Basketball Championships. Maybe this short playoff trip will give him enough rest to rejuvenate?

I wonder if the Iverson situation was mismanaged? When I look at the first game we played against the CAVS and beat them, it was Iverson AND Rip playing together…and man we looked good!

I really wonder if someone had ‘managed’ the Iverson Rip situation better..what would we be saying now?

I always felt Bynum was just hard to guard and quite a spark off the bench – and in some respects i think he is better than Stuckey

This Chauncey-led Nuggets team is simply too fun to watch! They’re hitting all cylinders again in the second game. Chauncey and The Birdman are lighting up the crowd. We as Pistons fans can adopt Denver as our playoff team to cheer for this postseason :)

God, Chauncey is lighting up the Hornets. Does anyone remember a time when Chauncey has light up a team this badly in the playoffs? I know he did it on ocassion during the regular season but I mean the playoffs is where he has struggled (particularly, in the ECF).

He’s making us look really bad but if he would of been playing like this when he was Detroit it might of been someone else getting traded and not him.

I don’t know anymore…

From Blakely:

“Pistons forward Amir Johnson, on Cleveland’s moppy-haired power forward Anderson Varejao: ‘He plays hard, but the hair makes it seem like he plays harder.’”

God dammit Chauncey is great, hes completely tearing apart CP3 and the hornets,

its the 3rd qtr and for the series he has 58 pts 11asts and 0to’s

You can’t really put the blame on Wallace and Tay. It is a collective thing everyone should be blamed including Joe-D and the Pistons Staff. They got rid of a Center and never fixed that problem. They let that problem just sit there and rot-away. Later on they decided to free some cap space and traded Chauncey instead of getting a true center that could give Rasheed Wallace the type of help Ben Wallace provided on defense. That didn’t happen, we got rid of a point guard and left the PG position as a problem that needs to be resolved but unfortunately thats going to rot away and remain like that while Joe-D gets rid of tay and changes the big-man lineup.

Its just sad. Joe-D made some great decisions when he put this team together but when Ben Left he really couldn’t bring a Center who would really solve this puzzle. When Billups left he couldn’t bring a point guard who could wear his shoes.

Look at this team the only reason it fell apart is because instead of strengthening it from the bench which is what we needed before any of these changes took place… we actually made some major changes with our lineup and now we got a team that can’t even stand on its feet.

GRRRRRRRRR pisses me off!

I still believe they can win.

This article explains why my preference is for the team to go young and build a new core that can grow together like Portland’s core. Unfortunately, I think Dumars made a huge mistake extending Rip. I think he’ll still be a productive player but Dumars is usually really good about getting great value.

I think Tay can be the leader if the team goes young. I think Tay is still a good defender but much of what made him great was how smartly and effectively he used the threat of Ben Wallace behind him. Get a good shot blocker and I think Tay will be fine

Prince, Amir and draft picks for Bosh. Do it.

If I said you had a beautiful body, would you hold it against me?

Forgot to add Jawai. Get him. Then draft Patty Mills, Andrew Ogilvy, Luke Nevill and Joe Ingles.

I like beer.

chauncey was an underrated team player…and was he not the leader?
but the nuggets are better than we were last year. they have many pieces. a big strong center who can score. another veteran big who posts. a talented forward who is big and can score. a bench which attacks. a young player who can get red hot. a competent coach. they are deep.
  sheed may not be a starter but he is till useful. tay is solid but not a superstar. can’t expect the impossible.
  never underestimate the import of coaching. right now the team is suffering to the cavs because of repeated blown fourth quarters in the last month. the starting rotation went cold in the third quarter against chicago and curry rode them til the end where they finally coughed up the lead in the last seconds.
   cleveland is going to rout more than just the pistons. we are taking our medecine one week earlier than the next sucker.

i am not arguing against trades. i just think expecting sheed to be 28 and tay to be a superstar is unrealistic. but that doesn’t mean they should be thrown out. they must be utilized realistically.

as to who was the piston leader. i ask when did the winning stop? 2009 or 2007? who was mvp in the 2004 finals? who is currently the leader of another playoff team?

@andyfrombrooklyn, yeah man Billups should have stayed and Joe D should have packaged Prince, Rip and Sheed for Camelo from Denver. Once again Joe has failed us…..nice job Joe. Can’t wait for next season for what he can come up with.

Great Post! I totally agree with this assesment of Tayshaun.
To many times we have seen him come with lackluster play when he has to match up a big name player. How many times have you seen him fold to Paul Pierce? Richard Jefferson loved to see him come to town when he was in New Jersey. His performance against Lebron is inexcusable. No one is expecting him to shut down lebron, but we are asking him to step up to the challenge. Why is defending lebron with a smaller guy better than with Tayshaun? You would think Tayshaun would be offended. If you notice how quickly he switches off Lebron on screens, you would understand that this is exactly what he wants.

Tayshaun is the most multiskilled player on the team. He has three point range, a post up game, ability to run the offense, rebounding (whenever he decides to), and can drive to the basket. He just doesn’t have the heart and drive to be the guy that this team needs.

Remember when Larry Brown was here and he was talking to the guys in the huddle and he said, “Why are you passing it to Tayshaun? He doesn’t want it.” L.B was right then and it’s pretty much the same assesment of him now.

Saw this on ESPN Insider:

If the Pistons are going to rebuild and add a young, elite-level forward, they may not be able to go the free-agent route. It might have to come through a trade, and if that’s the case, the most valuable chip other than picks is Prince.

Prince has two years and about $25.1 million left on his contract, far from unmovable. The Raptors have shown interest just as the Pistons have barely hid their interest in forward Chris Bosh. Nobody is saying that will happen. But Prince is no longer untouchable. — The Detroit News

As for the 3 spot, I think in the short-term if Bosh or someone like that is recieved for Tay/Amir/picks, then Affalo could be it. He’s got the defensive intensity, has been working the long ball and by all appearances has the athletic ability. Might be a tad small on some nights, but it’s a start and we could see if he could grow into this position.

I like Tayshaun. I would also do Tayshaun + something (picks, e.g.) for Bosh. But let’s not kid ourselves that this wouldn’t leave a huge hole at SF. I like AA’s attitude, and I expect he will improve, but compare him to the SFs on the elite teams. AA and Herrmann haven’t even shown they can be consistently effective BACKUP SFs.

Then again, if we had Bosh, we wouldn’t need as much from a SF. . . .

P.S. Meant to add: AA really is too small to be an elite SF. If we learned nothing else from this year (and in fact, I think we did learn a number of things), playing guards at SF is not a good idea.

Every time I watch Denver a single tear drops from my eye. That trade is looking dumber and dumber with every Denver win in these playoffs especially the way Billups has been playing. Good Lord man!! He had 0 turnovers and 31 points in this last outing and Iverson is no where to be found. Joe Dumars will never find a player as good as Billups in free ageny. Phuck that cap space!! We should of traded Rasheed or Tayshaun before Chauncey. There was one sacred cow on the team and Billups didn’t recognize it. He completly underestimated what the removal of Billups would do to these guys. That guy dropped the ball.

What I meant to say at the end was Dumard didn’t recognize his one sacred cow. Which was Billups. He was the Elmer’s glue for this team

Wait, Dumars should have glued Chauncey to a cow?

Got milk?

Yes to the cows ass

If we could somehow keep our #15 pick in whatever deal we make for Bosh, I would love to take Terrence Williams from Louisville and start him right from the get-go at SF.

Going along with what QD and mustafa said earlier, what I really don’t like about how our roster is constructed going forward is how we have highly paid, and long-term obligations, to our SG and SF, while we have uncertainty at both PF and C, and inexperience at PG. IMO, that is pretty much the opposite of how a team should be built, unless that SG/SF is a true superstar (James/Kobe/Durant etc..). PG and PF/C are generally the “foundational” positions, and are the hardest positions to find adequate players at.

That’s ultimately what I hated the most about Rip’s extension- we sunk a lot of money into a position that is relatively easily filled (and if you think AA is gonna be an above average player, as I do, it was also a position that we had a decent replacement waiting in the wings), which could end up hurting our ability to upgrade our more pressing needs.

Also, Max’s extension looks pretty horrible now as well, at least as long as Curry is the coach and insists on not playing him more than 15-18 minutes a game. We have Max signed for another 4 years, at 5m per year.

“Also, Max’s extension looks pretty horrible now as well, at least as long as Curry is the coach and insists on not playing him more than 15-18 minutes a game.”

Obviously beating a dead horse right now, but shouldn’t rectifying this situation be our #1 move this off-season? I know we all hated on Flip, but I guarantee you we were a 45+ win team this year, trade or otherwise, with him as our coach. And I can’t stand the guy. That’s how fucking bad Curry’s been.

@Toledo Joe: I think AA and/or Fabio would be serviceable in the SF for the short term, obviously having a Bosh at PF. There would obviously be nites we don’t match up at all at the 3. But if we are going to have a low post threat, we need a 3 who can hit 3’s since our guards can’t on a consistent basis. But I do like Rips ability to improve there. I don’t think we learned anything this season regarding if AA or Fabio could be serviceable at the 3 given MC’s “lineup/rotation by darts” method.

As for “matching up against elite SF’s”: I think we do ourselves a great disservice when measuring players at any position by comparing them to the “elites” at their position, though it does need to factor into the equation. Excl’g perhaps Wallace (Ben and/or Sheed) in 04, none of our guys could match up against “elites.” Remember, this was Tay’s coming out party in 04.

I think we could also use Rip at the 3 in spurts with a backcourt of Stuck & WB on some nites in some spots depending on the match ups and not lose much. With AI in “smallball” we also had to make up for his defensive shortcomings. That’s hard to do when we don’t have any shotblockers down low.

If you throw Kwame in at the 5, Bosh at the 4 along with Rip and Stuck, you’re pretty close to 4/5 of the type of make up of the 04 team. I think Kwame is a tad better offensively than Ben, but I do not suggest Stuck is near what CB was in 04. Throw in a defensive minded 3, and there are similarities, except Bosh’s 3 ability as compared to Sheed’s.

Plus, the fact that Coangelo in Tor probably wants to play an uptempo style, he’s got Tay, Amir, Calderon, Bargiani and if possible a resigned for less Marion, that’s an up-n-down team. Hell, if we could get Bosh, sign Marion at the 3 on the cheap, entice Dyess to comeback, I think we’re very close to being very competitive. Throw in some cap relief/player/picks at the Clips and pick up Kaman.

Also, given the economics and us picking 15 (?), we could use a couple of 2nd round picks plus our 15th to move up. Teams in the lottery close to cap I think may look to slide down given the rookie scale and what appears to be a very shallow draft.

Finally, I believe if the Cavs win the chip, every team who positioned themselves for a run at him and Wade in 2010 just shot themselves in the foot. Bron ain’t leaving Cleveland if he thinks he’s close with the guys he’s got around him now. If for no other reason going to another team brings alot of uncertainty of who said team would surround Bron with plus the ability of Clev to resign him higher than other teams.

This whole idea of marketing money/bigger venue for Bron is just hogwash. First, he won’t need endorsement money because of what he’s receiving now. He wouldn’t be recieving that kind of money if the advertisers thought the world was having a problem “tuning in or seeing” Bron because he was in Siberia. Christ, the guy is already everywhere. Endorsement money being roughly even, Clev ability to sign him for more, being an Ohio guy and being very close to a chip, why would Bron leave?

Gabe: Tay has only 2 years left on his deal. Hardly long term.

I remember Dumars said before (when everybody was thinking Amare) that he was not interested in getting a player who may only be with them for a year. I feel like Bosh is the same way, and that one year is an awful short time to build around someone and convince them to stay. I don’t know how team-oriented Bosh is, since I have only seen him when he is pissed about being on the Raptors, but that would be something to consider as well.

Drew: I agree. We’d have to lock up Bosh long term. I also think culture plays into it. Excl’g this year our culture is alot better than Toronto’s. Bosh was drafted in 03 (God that hurts to say that the way thigns turned out) but they’ve been trying to build around Bosh for years. If they don’t do it this summer, why should Bosh believe they’ll do it next summer? He won’t to wait around to find out I think.

Mark: Good post, and good point re:Tay, I thought his contract went a year longer. Still, the most expensive year on his contract is 2010-2011, at over 11m, so he’ll be hard to move until after the 2010 free agency period is finished, because realistically who wants $11m of Tay Prince, when they have a chance at the Lebron/Wade/Bosh types.

@Drew

If we were to somehow score Bosh through a trade this summer, I guarantee we extend him on a long-term deal before his free-agency comes up next summer. To not do so would be a stupid move of epic proportions.

@ Gabe: Thanks. But, for simplicity sake, 20 teams chasing Bron/Wade/Bosh, perhaps 10-12 teams remaining of the 17 would like to show something for losing out on those 3. I think we send him now ( I don’t like saying that) while his value is higher. The contract and if he has another post season next year as this year is turning into, nobody is looking to trade for him.

As for Rip’s contract: A top 10 SG for ~11M/year who can get you ~20-22/nite, that’s cheap. Perhaps a year too long, but cheap nonetheless. (If I remember right, Rips contract is ~35M/3 years)

Well, I was just looking at the contracts, and now I actually like the Pistons’ chances of being able to give Bosh a good team. We would still have plenty of money to trade Kwame for Chandler, have a great defensive frontcourt, and a little space to play with for an adequate SF (read: one who can keep us from getting completely burned while playing Pierce or LeBron). That, combined with Rip and Stuck, would be a great team.

@Joel

I agree, but he has to agree to the contract too, and seeing how eager he is to get out of toronto, its obvious that he really wants a good team around him.

Mark Butter:

I agree at least 90% with you. I really, really want to get Bosh, and having him, I think, cover some relative weaknesses elsewhere. But I still don’t like the idea of AA or especially Rip playing much at all at SF. Yeah, we can’t learn a ton from what Curry did, but I think we did learn that playing Rip out of position is a bad idea.

As to AA, again I love the guy’s approach to the game, but he still hasn’t shown a consistent offensive game (maybe that will come, maybe not). Also, he’s too small to guard most SFs. I guess I shouldn’t have said “compared to the elites,” I should have said “compared to the average starting SFs,” especially the (average) SFs on playoff teams. Herrmann at least has the size, but would he start for at least half the NBA teams?

Mark: Agreed that it probably makes the most sense to trade Tay this off-season.

Also, just looked it up, Rip’s extension is 3 years on top of his old contract (because he never opted out of it), taking him through 2012-2013, his age 35 season. He’s still a good player and will probably remain a decent player throughout the length of the contract, but IMO, it’s pretty crappy value for a SG who is already in his 30’s.

Not that PER is perfect or anything, but here’s a ranking of all SG’s PER’s this season: http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics?sort=per&qual=true&pos=sg&seasonType=2&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fnba%2fhollinger%2fstatistics%3fsort%3dper%26qual%3dtrue%26pos%3dsg%26seasonType%3d2

And I don’t think Rip’s game meshes with Stuckey’s very well (I think Stuck’s backcourt-mate ideally is someone who can run the offense at times, depending on match-ups, and let Stuck slide off-ball), also I’m not sure if Rip’s game would mesh all that well with a theoretical scoring/post up, big man either (as Rip isn’t really a standstill, floor spacer of a shooter, he’s the off-ball movement, off screens, mid-range type, which would take away touches from the big man).

Okay, so per ESPN’s trade machine, Tay + Amir for Bosh works out money-wise. Obviously we have to add some picks/cash to sweeten the deal. Whatever, just as long as we somehow hold onto our #15 this year. Our roster now looks like this:

Stuck/WB
Rip/AA
Hermann/Sharpe
Bosh/Maxiell
Kwame

That’s only 9 guys. We obviously have a huge need at SF now and still need another big or two. Good thing about moving Tay is that there are actually a few decent SF’s to be had:

Josh Childress
Marvin Williams
Wally Sczerbiak (meh… maybe 3pt specialist?)
Linas Kleiza
Ron Artest (yup)
Marquis Daniels
Trevor Ariza
Lamar Odom
Jamario Moon
Damien Wilkins
Hedo Turkoglu
Matt Barnes
Grant Hill
Shaun Marion
Kyle Korver

I know it’s Pistons sacrilege, but I can’t help but think Ron Artest might be EXACTLY what this team needs to get back to playing “Detroit Baketball.” I know the guy’s a boxful of crazy, but he’s only 29 and will come very cheaply for what he’ll bring. I think we wouldn’t have to pay more than $7mil per, and you know his playing style ages well. Plus, he’s a more potent offensive AND defensive threat that Tay and will probably be cheaper. We’ve been saying that the elite SF’s now hold the keys in the East? Why not get the best guy at stopping them? I also like Trevor Ariza and Josh Childress (if he comes back from Greece, which by all reports he plans to do). I also wonder what we’d be like playing Lamar Odom full-time at the 3— we’d be huge up front, that’s for sure.

So here’s our lineup once we’ve added the SF:

Stuck/MFWB
Rip/AA
Artest/Hermann
Bosh/Maxiel
Kwame/????

Last need? A backup C/PF. Once again, a list of potential FA’s:

Zaza Pachulia
Mikki Moore
Zydrunas Ilgauskas
Anderson Varejao
Chris Andersen
Antonio McDyess
Rasheed Wallace
Rasho Nesterovic
Lamar Odom
Francisco Elson
Chris Wilcox
Marcin Gortat
Drew Gooden
Mehmet Okur
Carlos Boozer
Etan Thomas

Okay, so obviously there are some guys on this list that we simply can’t afford to take on if we make the move for Bosh, so forget about Boozer/Okur, because they’re both getting paid above what we want to spend on our backup C. However, depending on how cheaply we get Artest (in my little fantasy offseason here), we should be able to maybe pick up two of these guys. Obviously we sign McDyess. Putting him on that list is a formality only, and we’re definitely going to pay him to come off our bench. Best backup veteran big in the business. Now we need one more guy. Sheed? Maybe. I say Chris “Motherfuckin’ Birdman” Anderson. He’ll come cheap and do EXACTLY what we want from our backup C— rebound, block shots, and dunk the ball.

Also, assuming we can somehow keep our #15 pick, we take T-Will from Louisville.

So here’s my final roster for this offseason:

Stuck/MFWB
Rip/AA
Artest/T-Will
Bosh/Maxiell/Birdman
Kwame/McDyess/Birdman

I don’t really give a shit about the 12-14 spots. All the FA’s (for the most part) are up there, so post your own lineups. I’m curious to see what other people are thinking for this (hopefully) exciting offseason.

@ Watson:

I think you’re absolutely right about the lack of leadership, and I too hoped for Rip to fill that void. I think the trade and move to the bench had something to do with him not doing so. After the trade, all bets were off, including who’s leading the team.

Just a few weeks ago, I was of the mind that re-signing Wallace to a modest two-year deal would be a smart decision, especially if he understood he was going to be phased out of the starting lineup. Now, I’m not so sure. As for Prince, we’ve been waiting for years for him to take the next step. Realistically, it’s just not going to happen — time flies, but he turns 30 next year.

Denver doesn’t have the same CB that Detroit had — the move home reinvigorated him. (I think I read that here).

I think that’s a fair statement, especially after seeing CB explode in the first two games against CP3.

Concerning Tay:

First, an argument for keeping him:

Rushing to trade Tay might not be a good move. Someone else noted how many miles are on Tay’s tires — especially recently. There’s no question that he will ever be a “go to guy,” especially when matched up with guys like LBJ. But that doesn’t mean he can’t be a quality starter (for us or someone else).

That said, however, I’ve always felt that our coaches have overplayed Tay because they have overestiamted his value (on offense and defense). He’s a very good player — when he’s playing well — at both ends, but he’s not “elite” even at his best.

IMO, we will get the best value out of Tayshaun if we can limit his minutes to 30-35 per night, so that he’s fresh when we need him.

Which obviously brings us back to needing a quality SF off the bench — which TJ has aptly pointed out time and again.

In sum, if we keep him we need to:
1) Limit his minutes — because he’s a valuable but limited player and we need him to be fresh when he’s out there.
2) Draft/Trade/Sign a reliable SF who can score in bunches to bring off the bench (defense is a plus as well)

An argument for trading him:

But as I’ve said, I suspect that trading CB was just one piece of a much larger restructuring puzzle, and I suspect that Tay has some very quality trade value — I don’t think Joe D is ignoring that. There are a lot of teams who would value his stability and talent, as well as his reasonable contract. He would fit perfectly as a leader for a youth movement (here or somewhere else).

Concerning Sheed:

This season has convinced me that Sheed is a 25 minutes / game guy from here on out, and I think Joe D (and any other GM that’s paid attention) will notice that.

That’s not to say he isn’t valuable, but he’s no longer a starter — he’s slowed way down this season, and he may have lost his fire (for Detroit, anyway).

I’d like to have him back, assuming we get a serviceable PF in FA market/ via trade, but it would be a huge mistake to overpay him.

There’s no question he’s not what he was even one year ago, and he’s only going to be older next year. One has to wonder if he will continue to decline as drastically.

That said, I’d have to think if we could sign him on the cheap and 1) Play him in an appropriate role or 2) trade him during the season to a team that’s looking to dump for cap space/relief, then we should do it.

But he’s not the anchor of our front court anymore, and we have to come to grips with that — and so does he.

Man, I wish the Brawl hadn’t happened. I would LOVE to have Artest here, but I can’t see Dumars doing it.

I should have also said that I think resigning Dice should be a bigger priority than resigning Sheed.

Dice has heart, which is what our team collectively is missing.

However, I suspect we’ll be one of many suitors for Dice this off-season, and if I were him, I’d take a deal with SA/Bos/Cle before coming back to Detroit — because I’d want a chip.

@Drew

You’re right, but I’m pretty sure the fans would embrace him. Yes, he did try to kill one of them, but honestly after that whole ordeal, I think I hated Stephen Jackson and Jermaine O’Neale way more than Ron. Ron’s just like a crazy little kid. Those other two were just plain thuggin’ shit up. Remember that haymaker Jermaine landed on that chubby guy?

Do you guys know about Travis Outlaw’s contract situation? Portland can only keep so many players. I think Outlaw would be a very good addition.

I also like the idea of Terrence Williams in a Pistons uniform, provided he gets some coaching to work on his handle and shot selection. That is a big if.

@Joel – The salaries wouldn’t have to match up for a Bosh trade – both of our teams will be under the cap.

Honestly, I think we’d have a hard time not getting reamed trading for Bosh. Teams would be falling over themselves for him, since that put them in the best position to offer the best contract and retain him. I think we could get similar production out of Boozer or Brand for much less cost (both in terms of the assets we’d have to spend to acquire Bosh and the max contract we’d have to pay him to keep him here).

But if Bosh was the route we wanted to go, he apparently had a good relationship with former Coach of the Year Sam Mitchell, who is currently unemployed…

Why are you people so keen on trading Johnson and not Jason Maxiell. They’ve both been inconsistent this year. Is it his contract? Because Maxiell is at most just a back up PF. I know he can deliver a big play every other game, but other than that he’s really not as great a player as you guys make it seem.

 For one, he’s undersized which means his post game is going to be limited to maybe 2,3 put back dunks or tip ins a game because his J is so inconsistent.

 Apparently he’s allergic to defensive rebounds. Which sucks because one of the main jobs of a starting Pf is to collect rebounds.

Plus he’s 26 going on 27, so we know he’s pretty much reached his peak and is going to go down hill in two, three years or so because again his J is so consistent and he’s not going to be so explosive at the age of 29, 30 after banging around in the post for so long. Thats why Dyess and Sheed still have value at their age even though they can’t bang in the post, they both are good/great mid range shooters.

@Joe: Great research and post.

I’m not sure Odom can keep up with the elite/athletic 3’s at this point of his career. At least not up and down the court. As for Rip, I think if he can improve his 3 a bit more this summer he’ll be fine. He’ll still be able to run guys off the screens and as for seting up low post PF offense, they were doing that exact thing in 04 with sheed down low. I think MFWB is a great spark plug off the bench and I don’t think Max’s contract at 5 years/25M is not at all unreasonable. I think he could guard a Paul Pierce (a 3) in spot duty and some of the slower 3’s.

I do think trading CB was done for 2 purposes: Cap space and to have the ability to possibly trade another of the core. We keep looking at trading CB for X player because of the cap space. But if not all that cap space is used up on trade #1, then some of that cap space + Tay would yield something back in trade #2, i.e., splitting said cap space over 2 or more trades.

Would love to have Dyess back. And I think that if Joe D. can put us in position to be much more competitive, with better than 80-1 odds of winning a chip next season, Dyess certainly would look at us. I thnk the Lakers let Odom leave and sign Ariza, but at some point if Farmer isn’t it, than they have to look somewhere at replacing/reducing Fisher’s minutes. They also might want to pursue S. Brown who’s played well for them and I think he’d be tickled pink to stay in LA at a reduced price. Plus they’ve got one more year of Morrison’s albatross contract at ~3-4M.

I think if we can pry Kaman away from the Clips and get Bosh, we’ve got ~12 & 10 and 20 & 10 from the 5 & 4 positions. Add in another 15 from Rip, Stuck gets 13 & 6 per nite, that’s 60 points a nite without even factoring in the 3. We’ve got two decent 7’ shot blockers down low. Bring in Dyess with 8 & 5 and we’re rolling. As for Sheed: 1: Cheap. 2: Cheap. 3: off the bench. The only way that works is if we have a strong leadership PG and Stuck isn’t it at this point as it would relate to Sheed. A coach with big cajones, and we ain’t got that either. I think to do that, you’d definitely would have to resign Dyess and give him the task of getting in Sheed’s face when needed. I think teams will be after Dyess, but 1: for how much 2: he can’t be a 35 min per nite guy for a whole season at this point. I think his two primary suitors looking for a ring are Bos & SA who could use him in a way to best maximize his ability.

Finally, looking at teams who will contend for the next several years, Lakers (Bynum/Gasol), Portland (Oden/LA), Cleve (Z/Varejo), Chi (Miller/TT/Noah), Bos (KG/Perkins), Den (Nene/Martin/Birdman) come to mind immediately who have 2 7 footers in the paint and at least one of them is very long and/or athletic. I watched the Jazz get killed on Tuesday because of the Lakers size and I think anyone trying to contend in the near future is going to have to match that. Boozer can’t handle Gasol down low, so I think he’s the best of a last resort if Bosh can’t be had.

I don’t want Boozer anymore. I was high on him for awhile, but I think defense is at least as important as offense in a big man, especially when we have two good guards playing with him. Defense is also a lot harder to find. I am also not very excited about his attitude or injuries (even though I know they are not recurring).

i agree markbutter

P.S. I’m not totally sold on Brand. He was the man on a bad clippers team and in reality, really hasn’t played in nearly 2 years.

I’m sure it’s been said since the Billups trade, but after seeing Chauncey destroy one of the best PGs in the game, shoot 12-15 from beyond the arc, not miss a free throw, and manage his team like a true floor general, I fully believe that the success of the Pistons was more attributable to Chauncey Billups than any other player.

Like I was saying. Billups was the sacred cow. Now they are drinking the good milk down in Denver while we left with a bitter taste of spoiled milk in our mouths.

I think if we can pry Kaman away from the Clips and get Bosh, we’ve got ~12 & 10 and 20 & 10 from the 5 & 4 positions. Add in another 15 from Rip, Stuck gets 13 & 6 per nite, that’s 60 points a nite without even factoring in the 3. We’ve got two decent 7′ shot blockers down low. Bring in Dyess with 8 & 5 and we’re rolling.

That is the best case scenario I could have ever imagined. I have loved Kaman for Detroit since he was in college.

(As an aside, I scored on him in high school and played against his Central team that made a run in the tourney in college — good times).

I prefer Bosh to Boozer and Brand, even if he is more expensive.
1) He’s a team player who cares about winning more than anything else. Plus, he’s got a good outside shot (kinda like a younger Sheed, really).
2) Brand and Boozer have been injury prone, which is especially scary for a big man.
3) He plays defense and rebounds well.

I’ve loved Tay, but if we can turn him and Amir/Max + picks into Bosh, then I don’t even see why it’s a question.

Dear Denver Nuggets,

Gee, if Joe hadn’t traded Billups in November, then we could be doing so much better.

Signed,

Pistons Fans.

/not a fan of Gin Blossoms, but still …

I’m sure it’s been said since the Billups trade, but after seeing Chauncey destroy one of the best PGs in the game, shoot 12-15 from beyond the arc, not miss a free throw, and manage his team like a true floor general, I fully believe that the success of the Pistons was more attributable to Chauncey Billups than any other player.

You might be right, and we’ve debated whether or not trading another player was possible without first trading CB — we’ve concluded, probably not.

But in any case, I hear you.

However, this year’s Pistons + CB could not win a chip. And this year’s Denver + CB will not win a chip.

And getting to the ECF for a 7th season and losing wasn’t Joe D’s ultimate goal, and he was willing to pull the trigger on rebuilding sooner rather than later.

And frankly, those who have pointed this out before are right — better to trade an aging Billups one year sooner than needed than one year later. When it comes to rebuilding the a team like Detroit, it’s better to err on the side of urgency rather than desperation.

While I watched Denver’s game 1, I REALLY missed Chauncey. And now I still do, but I know that we wouldn’t have had THIS Chauncey Billups on our squad this year. He’s a new player, with a new chip on his shoulder, and that’s what he needed to get back to the elite calibre we knew he was capable of (but he didn’t bring for the last few years). So, although I miss you, Chauncey, I don’t wish you were here as much as I used to because we all needed the change.

As for Bosh, I’ve been watching him for years in Toronto, and he’s awesome. On the court and off. He’s a really good guy. I’d LOVE to get him even if it meant starting Fabio (who can actually play a little). Hey, what about Walter Sharpe? Anyone think he can be the SF backup? I wish our organization actually played their rookies a little bit, like a lot of other teams out there.

As for Bosh, I’ve been watching him for years in Toronto, and he’s awesome. On the court and off.

Plus, he’s on Twitter and has a regular video blog via YouTube. He cares about the fans as much as anyone in the league, and it would be great to have that kind of guy in a Pistons uni.

Hey, what about Walter Sharpe? Anyone think he can be the SF backup? I wish our organization actually played their rookies a little bit, like a lot of other teams out there.

There’s no way of knowing how good our young guys can be, and in that respect, we are a victim of our own success.

Perennial powerhouses don’t go through rebuilding years, which means rookies and young players don’t get a lot of burn.

One has to wonder how much that has stunted Max’s ability, and if Amir weren’t still so young, one would have to wonder the same thing. Heck, I think Fabio could be a respectable 20 mpg guy if given the chance to develop.

Next year might be the year all that finally happens. It might be painful, but at least they’ll be growing pains.

yes,, we remember that first game against cavs. AI and RIP together, they beat also lakers, yes i agree, AI and RIP, was dismanage buy MC… mr clean

Sign me up for Joel’s summer plan. I think I’d prefer Childress over Artest though if possible. Childress is good on defense too, but not as good as Artest. However, he’s a very good 3 point shooter, isn’t a ball stopper, and more efficient player.

@Jim

And he has that whole “not batshit crazy” thing going for him too. But yeah, other than Artest, who I think is perfect but probably will never be allowed to play in a Pistons uni, Josh Childress or Trevor Ariza would both be fantastic fits. I know they’re both career reserves, but they’re both young and I think would thrive with starters’ minutes.

I love Chauncey but he was not no sacred cow. If he were playing like this during our last 3 playoffs stints (‘06, ’07, & ’08) he would of not been traded. But obviously that’s not the case, he did not produce in the playoffs when we needed him most.

And whos to say that Chauncey would of been killing the Cavs? Maybe our record would of been better by about 10 games but if we matched up against the Cavs they would of tore him apart like they did in ’07.

We wouldn’t be in the 8th seed, just missing the lottery process, if Chauncey was here. Perhaps we’d be where Miami is.

To those responding to my comments, completely agree with you all, although whether Denver can win a ship this year remains to be seen. I think they could cause some interesting matchup problems for LA if they get that far.

Farmar/Fisher cannot match up with Chauncey, and I think that Denver’s frontline has the defense to at least match-up with LA…we’ll see though.

If Chauncey were on this team, we wouldn’t be playing the cavs anyways. I’m sorry for starting this argument…it is pretty pointless to argue.

I can’t believe there are some questioning Tay’s heart. The guy has played every game for the last six years. There’s no way he’s been 100% for every one of those games. That shows complete dedication to me.

I know I’m not questioning his heart, but he definitely hasn’t made the step that everyone had expected/hoped he’d make.

You guys are right we wouldn’t be playing Cavs in the first round and I did say our record would be improved by about 10 games. But we would have to face the Cavs eventually and I guarantee the Cavs would of shut him down again.

brgulker: Scored on Kaman? You from around the Grand Rapids area? I’m originally from near there, actually Lowell. Which was the sticks back in the 60s & 70’s. Actually had the 3-on-3 Gus Macker tourney in Lowell. Played every Sunday with Scott “Gus” McNeal and his brother Chris. Christ I’m old.

Tayshaun’s clearly hurt, and it appears to be stifling his offense … which was just average production before the injury. It feels like a situation similar to when Karl Malone took the floor for the Lakers in the ‘04 Finals …. every time he took that floor, while hobbled, the Pistons had a huge advantage … in this case, LeBron’s healthy, and he’s an elite player … if he attacks Prince, he wins, big time.

JamesB: I don’t know about the matchup with CB vs. Fisher/Farmar. Part of the problem last year was CB staying in front of Rondo in the Bos series. I can see Farmar doing the same since they won’t be able to switch like they did last nite with Jones on Paul. CB can’t stay with Kobe (but who can).

Sauce: Agree. Tay just doesn’t look right. I’d at least put Fabio or AA out there for some burn. If for no other reason than to commit 12 fouls and hopefully get Bron out of a rythum or a change of pace.

Farmar/Fisher cannot match up with Chauncey …

But Kobe can. And there’s no good reason why LA wouldn’t match them up.

@ QD: I agree. Tay’s got heart, no question. I’m questioning his ability and how our coaches have valued that ability. I think he’s a starter, but a complementary starter and is worth about 30-35 per game with a backup SF who provides a scoring punch.

brgulker: Scored on Kaman? You from around the Grand Rapids area?

Yep, sure am. We never played during the regular season, though. I hit a floater in the lane against Tri-Unity during a summer team camp — I think they won it all that year, and we thumped them in summer league (as if that means anything). We were, however, a Class A school that year.

In college, they beat the hell out of us. I played at a small NAIA school, and we were essentially a sympathy game. Their full-court press chewed us up and spit us out.

qd agreed about tay. he plays hard. as a matter of fact everybody plays hard. even sheed sometimes. but tay is not a superstar and he is getting matched up with superstars. sheed is trying. he is just no longer 28. so he can’t dominate the way he used to. he even said it straight up at one point this year.

it is never just one thing. so yes chauncey wants to show his value by lifting the nuggs as the pistons sink. but the nuggs are good. compare them to last years pistons. it seems to me chauncey always did well against new orleans and chris paul. so it is about matchups. he isn’t playing in cleveland where he sucked so bad two tears ago. but it also isn’t on him alone. other denver guys are damn good and making plays…and the have a coach who is not totally green and dumbfounded. karl is competent.

If they sic Kobe on Chauncey, that still leaves JR Smith to attack Fisher/Farmar. The Nugs would get their points one way or another.

denver has a strong center who can score. he can make some free throws. they have kenyon martin who is physical and likes to play in the post and has a heart tattoo on his neck.. they have carmelo anthony who is super talented. they have the birdguy who is super horny for rebounds and putbacks. they have j.r smith who can catch fire at any moment. kleiza has his moments. anthony carter is competent. the team is good. the team is versatile. they made a commitment to defense and have lived up to it. the team is hungry. the team is getting hot at the right time. the coach is experienced. the coach has allotted roles and rotations that work and are set.
and they aren’t playing cleveland.

sauce, exactly.

I still give Kobe the edge in that match of guards. JR Smith is as soft as they come in perimeter defense … he does give energy, though … Chauncey probably enjoys talking and working with JR as much as he did Stuckey.

I just got off the phone with Chauncy and he told me to tell you guys, Moooooooo!!

i don’t think denver is going to beat l.a. i just think the chauncey analysis can be a little simplistic. denver is a good team. detroit has deteriorated in more ways than just losing chauncey. who would win chauncey and the 09 pistons versus chauncey and the 09 nuggets? i say the 09 nuggets easy. but then again i guess the 09 nuggets were one of the few teams the 09 pistons actually swept.

Well, I also like Odom, and I think Pau is more talented than any of the front court players Denver has to throw at him. Pau will get his points – Billups might slow Kobe down, but Kobe will get his, and make it tougher on Chauncey.

I just don’t want to hear any of the Chris Paul >>> Billups talk … not yet, he isn’t … he will be, soon enough, but he’s not there, not yet.

Slightly related, but has anyone else noticed that while Chris Paul gets all the hype and stats and praise ad nauseum— Chauncey has always owned him? Conversely, Derron Williams has always owned Chauncey. AAAAND, Derron has always owned Chris Paul too.

I’ve always felt in the vast minority when I say that I think Williams is the best young PG in the league, but more and more people keep agreeing with me. He’s as fast as Paul, passes like Kidd, hits the 3, is as strong as Chauncey, doesn’t turn the ball over, and plays fabulous defense. I think that when all is said and done, CP3 might have the individual shit all wrapped up, but I think D-Will will have more rings.

I really don’t agree with your comment about the Piston. Lacking on leadership is not the problem I see, but inconsistency. This was supposed to be a transition year for the Piston. At least that is what I thought when they traded Chauncey Billups and picked up Allen Iverson. Out with the old (Billups) and in with the new (Stuckey). What happened with playing the rest of the new players? Why didn’t Jason Maxiell play more? What about Amir Johnson, JoeyD signed Amir to a contract extension why not develop him. OK…ok.. these players are young and mistake prone, but great teams that stand the test of time aren’t built overnight. Even if we did not make the playoff we have had a chance to develop our young players and add a draft choice for 2010 or pick up on of those available great free agents. Hamilton, Rasheed, McDyess, Iverson are all old or getting old. Use those old players to see what have with these new players. Should have been the theme of 2009’

Use old ideas and post them as new ideas. Should have been the theme of that post.

Has the loss of billups been discussed with regards to the negative impact it has on Stuckey’s development? People seem to focus on how Billups being moved ultimately means that Stuckey will develop more quickly but what about the type of player that Stuckey will develop into?

I guess I would have rather seen the Pistons keep Chauncey this season and have Stuckey playing 25-30 minutes off the bench while being guided by one of the best floor generals in the league. The only thing that keeps me from being even more disappointed that this didn’t happend is the emergence of Bill Bynum who in many ways has been playing better than Stuck has over the end of the season.

I want to see the Pistons have both of those guys focus strongly on perimeter shooting specifically beyond the arc. They each should be shooting 500 3’s a day and no less throughout the entire off-season and the benefit of getting ousted early is it gives these guys an extra month of off-season to work out and work on their game.

JamesB: 48 minutes at the 1. Give Stuck 25-30, that only leaves 18-23 for Billups. Sure, Billups could play the 2 a bit, but if we are talking about Stuck’s development as a PG, he’s gotta play the PG. Given how our offense would be, CB can’t really play the 2 and run around like Rip without having a defibrillator nearby.

There is only so much you can learn while watching. Not quite an exact analogy, but Cassell of the Patriots “watched” for several years under Brady and he was no where near being able to step in and take control. Took him about 5-6 games just to get somewhat comfortable. Sure, he’s not playing concurrently like Stuck would have been. But at some point, Stuck will have to be the leader and he can’t begin to take on that role in earnest as long as CB is there with him.

Silver lining to this season is as you said: They’ll have an extra month to “heal” and work on their individual games. I rather have Stuck work on his mid-range game this summer and not the 3. Bynum: a tear drop ala’ Tony Parker because either of them can get to the rim practically anytime they want.

Does anyone seriously think that Tay+Amir+scraps is enough to get Bosh?
That would be awesome, but I don’t see it happening. Honestly, I don’t see them wanting to trade with us at all.

Ageed Colin I don’t think there’s any chance this happens , I think joe waited 2 years too long too trade anybody off this team at least of the old core , even Amir had more trade value at the beginning of the year . That said I would still Try to package Rip or Tay with Amir if the right deal came along its time to start over , and when I say start over I mean try to build a team thats very good 2 to 3 yrs from now, not next yr. and Tay and Rip don’t figure into that with there age.The party’s over its time to pick up the bill and move on.Besides when I look at a team like Portland or Atlanta there very exciting to watch. On the other hand if toronto is crazy enough to part with Bosh for Tay and chump change so be it.

@Colin- I could see it happening, but only if we’re willing to take back some serious crap… like both Kapono and Marcus Banks. That’s pretty much the only realistic way I could see Toronto dealing Bosh, as it would leave them committed for (roughly) as little as 35m in salary this off season, they’d have enough cap space and flexibility to completely remake their team.

It’s refreshing to see the Wings doing well.

Seriously … it’s possible to keep winning and winning. The Spurs do it … Wings do it … it’s possible to be on the winning end of the bell curve, indefinitely … especially when there are teams like the Clips which just make like a Hoover and suck-suck-suck.

Ya I would take Boozer in a heart beat if he opt out of his contract with the Jazz this summer.

Gabe,

Would you do that deal? I don’t mind Kapono so much, since we need 3 pt shooting, but 4.2 million for two more years for Marcus Banks? That’s nearing the point where I would rather get Boozer and call it a day.

Here’s my quick and dirty fix..

’Sheed’s 13.6M = Steve Novak + Anthony Parker & #1 pick
Iverson’s 21.9M = Paul Millsap + Trevor Ariza + resign McDyess
Herrmann’s 2M = signing a bunch of 2nd rounders

Parker and Novak fix the three point shooting, Millsap gives you a post scorer, Ariza gives you a defender for LeBron and Pierce, and the team still has nothing but reasonable contracts and maybe a little cap room to swap out two good players for an unhappy star (hopefully more like vintage Rasheed than recent AI). That’s Detroit Basketball.

1. = 1st round pick, not overall number 1.

I like Anthony Parker because he’s a career 40% 3pt percentage and he can play the point in a big lineup. Parker, Tay at the 2, Ariza, Amir, & Kwame Brown might be a pretty bad ass defensive lineup, especially against certain very large small forwards. You could switch players on picks (everybody but Kwame) so LeBron could never scrape on a screen. Use LeBron’s giant width against him — the danger of switching on picks is the offensive player will quickly split the defenders but since LeBron is about 6 feet wide it’s less of an issue (except if crab walking is made legal).

Prince ways about 150 lbs, actually probably closer to 200.

Lebron weighs about 270
Paul Pierce comes in at about 245.

With Prince playing 100 + games in each of the last 5 years or so one would have to been on the cool-aid to think that Prince is not physically worn down by the time the playoffs role around.

Prince’s perforamance against Pierce and Lebron in the playoffs the last two years does not surprise me.

Is Prince worth keeping for next season? Joe will keep him unless he gets an offer for Prince that he can’t refuse because it is too good.

While Prince has been a problem during the playoffs, Sheed, Dyess and Brown have been a bigger problem because their production against the likes of Z, Big Ben, Joe Smith, and AV has just been pathetic and these guys are just not that good.

Prince has not performed well in the first two games but going against Lebron is now one of the best defenders in the league along with his skills on offense is enough to make all underweight SF look bad.

However, there is no excuse for Sheed, Dyess and Brown to be stinking up the arena given the mediocre level of talent that they are going against.

Tayshaun sustained an injury in the last regular season game against Miami, and that’s why he is having a terrible series so far. His IQ and defensive abilities are through the roof, he’s been very durable (until now), and I cannot see any way Joe trades him, unless he goes for a complete tear-down: unlikely. He’ll rebuild around Stuck, Rip, and Tay. He will re-sign McDyess (hands-down Pistons’ MVP this year, not that that means much) for a year or two: great choice. Bye bye, Amir. My guess is that Bosh is his first choice, Boozer second. Someone above wrote that Boozer isn’t a vocal leader? I don’t think you’ve watched much Jazz…

With Prince playing 100 + games in each of the last 5 years or so one would have to been on the cool-aid to think that Prince is not physically worn down by the time the playoffs role around.

You’re right.

Tay has played as many games as anyone in the league over the past 6 seasons, plus he’s done all sorts of summer ball.

He needs several months off.

Then next season, we need to play him 30-35 max minutes per night for two reasons.

1) He’s a solid but limited player — we need a backup SF who can score in bunches to play ~ 15-20 minutes per game.

2) We need guys like Tay to be fresh when it counts, and we’ve botched that up for the past 4-6 seasons each and every season.

At the end of the day, Joe D has to decide how fast he wants to get back to the elite. The problem has been, basically since 2006, is that the attitude has been “been there, done that and we’ll get back there when we decide to turn on the switch” mentality.

I also think people feel a little burned now regarding the trade since I find it impossible to believe that bringing AI off the bench was only a thought beginning in mid-Mar. I think there’s been a struggle since AI got here on what to do. Everybody plus their brother realized that AI was brougt here for cap relief this summer and for AI & the front office to say all the right things when anyone who has followed basketball knew they were having smoke blown up their ass regarding “do whatever they ask me to do” and “this trade was made to help us this year” pisses people off. Both hard core and marginal fans.

The way the AI ending was handled everyone knew what happened and for the front office to say something different, was insulting to the fans. Had Joe D. came out in mid-Jan or around the allstar break and said AI doesn’t want to go to the bench so we’ve asked him not to come back and we are NOT buying him out because we believe in the team concept and prior to the trade AI said he was willing to put the team first would have won alot of folks over.

In this day and age people would have given credit for keeping the integrity of Det basketball which has been defense, an unselfish attitude and team concept and if AI doesn’t want to be part of that than we’ll get by regardless of the outcome because this is how Det basketball is played. By pussy-footing around with AI and making him larger than the team and then just flat out lying about it and the end, the Pistons lost alot of people’s respect including some of mine. Nobody likes being lied to, particularly when someone is trying to sell you some kind of product.

Even the casual fan who reads some sports on basketball knows what every pundit has been saying: Nobody can figure out WTF MC coaching and substitution patterns are, there seems to be very little sense of urgency and nobody appears to be genuinely pissed off when they lose. And by that I mean vitually every presser following a loss the excuse was we didn’t hustle enough, defend hard enough or execute good enough. This only gets you by the first month of the season as you’re trying to blend new players/coaches and philosophies in. After that, it dawns on people that they’ve heard that before, and in fact so many times that you’d think they would have corrected that problem by know and if they haven’t MCIAFI.

Unless Joe D puts a hustling and winning team on the floor next year yo’’ probably be able to drop a grenade from the palace rafters and hit all 3 dozen people with shrapnel. Including the players. I think the Det fans will put up with a struggling team trying to find it’s identity as long as they hustle. But if the players on the floor aren’t willing to bust their ass, why should some family in Det bust their ass to get home from work, pick up the family, fuck with traffic and drop a couple of hundred bucks when the players don’t appear to be overly excited to be at the game themselves?

Because at this point, prople aren’t going to get overly excited with a 5-8 seed after this year. This is in part a curse of the run we’ve had the last 6, but there’s no doubt about what’s going to happen when you’re not hustling if you’re playing for the Spurs and it appears at times MC and the front office just sat back and accepted it. Confirmed by appearance sake on how the AI saga was handled.

I co-sign with Mark. I’ve had a couple of days to think about this, but I think that after what happened in the 4th quarter of Game 2 that I’m ready to blow the whole f-ing thing up. It was amazing to watch hustle and urgency out of that group. Our guys used to play like that, but really haven’t in about 3 seasons. The move to Denver allowed Chauncey to re-find that urgency. It’s clear that Rip and Sheed haven’t (I’m buying the theory that Tay is banged up). We should blow it up, I’d like to keep Tay but play him less. This is depressing.

Good post, MBSoCo.

I particularly agree with your comments about hustle, which is why I like seeing the likes of Fabio, MFWB, Max, Amir, and Dice (even Kwame sometimes) get more PT — because it’s clear they want to be out there.

I love Tay and Rip, but I’ve questioned their effort at times.

And Sheed… well, I think Sheed checked out for big chunks of this season … and his performance in the playoffs so far has been mediocre at best. Some of that’s his age, and some of that’s his attitude.

I agree about your comments about Pop and SA — if you don’t play hard in SA, you don’t play. It’s that simple.

Which is why if I’m MCIAFI, I bench Sheed and maybe Tay in favor of Max/Amir and Fabio/MFWB (small ball).

I can deal with a superior team beating us. But I can’t accept a superior team simply walk all over us and us act like it doesn’t matter.

Other Matt & brgulker – thanks.

Hustle thing is what eats at me. I saw a play on Tues where Mo Williams coming of a screen with the ball at the FT line split the two defenders and got hoisted a 2 bucket. Stuck just kinda threw his arm up and I forgot who the big was.

It happens and it’s only one play, but the sole reason (as I recall) to make the change to MC was specifically this lackadaisical attitude and play. Judging simply from that perspective, regardless of W/L, MC has been a abject failure.

I think MC and Joe D accepted the way Sheed was playing because they realize if they traded him they’d lose the cap space and/or get less talent in return, we’re so impotent in the front court without him that we couldn’t compete and at that point ticket sales would have tanked.

This is the first time since ~2002/3 that Joe D has actually had to make the team better by subtraction. Before he could tinker around the edges, if Jarvis Hayes didn’t work out he’d be gone in a year. Arroyo, two years. He now has to try to tie up millions of dollars long-term and create a winner. Let’s face it, he got somewhat lucky regarding how Ben Wallace turned out and the G. hill sign-n-trade.

I think Joe D. (at least by me) would buy himself alot of kudos if he just came out after a trade is made or even before and just say: “I thought the AI experiment would work but it was also a win/win because of it didnt’ we’d have all this cap space to sign player X. In fact, excl’g a chip, this was really the plan all along” or something to that effect.

It also puts Joe D in different territory. For the past 6 years, teams have for the most part tried to match up with us. Need a well conditioned SG to run around with Rip. Big PG to match with CB. An agile PF able to close out at the three but long enough to handle Sheed in the post. If you’re SF drives your offense, it will have to change because of Tay’s abilities and length. We now have to match up with the Cavs, Magic, Bos and the up and coming Hawks and Sixers. Because the core was so good other teams had problems matching up with us, so Joe D is now operating under a different set of parameters.

Can he do it? Well, he’s got the first and most important part taken care of and that is cap space. Now it’s a matter of judging talent. A win some lose some proposition over the past several years by this front office. The only difference now is the franchise depends upon the outcome. Sign Boozer and he breaks down, we’re screwed. Also, in the NBA if you look at the elite teams, there is a pecking order. Previously, players in Det didn’t care about it. They will now, if for no other reason than the money about to be tied up in several players will force it to be decided upon.

@MB

Genius post.

Scary part though is in your last paragraph:

“Can he do it? Well, he’s got the first and most important part taken care of and that is cap space. Now it’s a matter of judging talent.”

I love Joe D, and I love that core that he put together, but like you said it was as much luck and good timing as it was anything else. And if his other personnel decisions from the last decade have shown us anything (Cleeves, Darko, every backup SF, every backup guard [minus Bynum], every backup big), it’s that Joe D really isn’t that great a judge of talent, sorry to say. The only successful draft picks he had were Tay and Memo, and Stuck, AA, and Max are all still up in the air, as far as what type of players they’ll end up being.

I just want one goddamn homerun. ONCE. Just once. Like a Danny Grainger at #17 or a Marcus Camby for a 2nd rounder a pocket lint. Agent Zero in the second round— that type of shit. We’ve got the capspace where a ridiculously lopsided sign-n-trade is totally possible.

Just remember, as bad as shit looks, all it takes is ONE move to turn a middle-of-the-pack team into a contender: Pao anyone? KG? Moe Williams? Chauncey? The proof is all over the league right now. If Joe D gets the right guy, anything can happen.

Our coach still sucks donkey cocks though. That needs to be addressed.

Joel, unfortunately, I think our “home run” was trading thorpe to memphis and having the ping pong balls fall our way to the #2 pick in one of the strongest drafts in history. After that, ehh.

Joel, I totally disagree that he’s a poor judge of talent. Every backup G and SF that he whiffed on were guys who were on the scrap heap. For 3 seasons, we had the best starting 5 in the league. There’s only so much more you can do. At that point, you’re trying to find a cheap player to fill a backup role. Yes it would’ve been nice to get a guy like Granger in the first round. Look at the 2007 draft after pick #14, I don’t think anybody would change the way that played out. We needed guards worse than we needed another under sized PF in Carl Landry. That draft looks pretty good considering how crappy it was after the top.

The last time that Joe Dumars embarked on a rebuilding effort, he hit a fucking grand slam. We went from the teal era to a title in 4 years, which seemed utterly impossible at the time. The difference this time around is that the NBA changed the rules after our success.

I love Joe D, and I love that core that he put together, but like you said it was as much luck and good timing as it was anything else.

To be fair, Joel, you have to admit that there’s always luck involved for each and every GM. In other words, it’s a fair playing field.

Take our opponents for example. Yes, Danny Ferry has done a good job building a team around LBJ.

But all of that was preceeded by the incredibly lucky and very unlikely bounce of a ping pong ball.

If Danny Ferry resignes LBJ, he’ll go down as the greatest GM in Cavs history, and all of that success will literally be predicated upon a lucky bounce.

Plus, I don’t think it’s coincidence that Joe was able to assemble a team of CB, Rip, Tay, Big Ben, and Sheed — you can’t write all 5 of those good decisions off to lucky guesses, can you?

Sure, Big Ben exceeded expectations — but Joe D traded Grant Hill for him; he must have seen something right?

I see your point, for sure, but it’s not just Joe D and luck fighting by themselves.

We can only hope that we will get lucky over the next two years — but given the enormous flexibility we have financially and the tough situations many clubs are in, we might not even need it.

Thanks Joel.

I think this summer (hopefully) or next will confirm whether Joe D is a genius or another run of the mill GM. He may have an opportunity in the next 4-7 years to move into the Jerry West/Pop Buford stratosphere or be considered just lucky. People are overlooking Darko (which would have gotten most GMs fired) because of the title and the run the last 6 years. Managing the cap by resigning CB, Tay, Rip, Sheed in 04, Dyess and still having some money left around add-ons I don’t think can be argued other than he’s been a great success.

When you’re consistently picking at the end of the first round there’s a reason and the pick don’t hold quite so much impact, talent and money wise. Trying to decide who you want to trade from your team to build a philosophy around with whom you’re getting back and making sure the pieces fit is another story. Everybody knew Kobe was taking that last shot last nite unless he was guarded by 5 guys and no one on the Lakers is pissd he took the shot he did. Who’s that going to be on our team because previously CB basically made that decision and everyone lived with what CB decided. If we’re going to invest boatloads of money on player, we best make sure he is of the caliber to be that guy to take the last shot and nobody will bitch about it.

On the bright side, for the first in a long time (excl’g Stuck) our 1st round pick will have an opportunity to actually come in and play.

But like others have said, there is some luck when evaluating talent. I think we’ve got a diamond in the rough in Stuck. Max and AA are still evaluating but at worst are serviceable guys in the NBA. I think the biggest mistake this years was small ball. We all knew AI was gone after this season barring a chip, and to change midstream your offense, then change back when we should have just stayed with what we were and build going forward.

This summer won’t be so dependent upon talent as it will be upon dollars. We already know what the Boozers/Bosh’s of the league can do. Boozer puts up some of his numbers because of Williams and Sloan’s pick-n-roll offense, though I admit Boozer surprised me last nite as I did not realize his low post game is better than I thought. Of course you change your offense if you got a Bron, Yao, Howard, Kobe, etc. But we aren’t getting anyone of that caliber which means we will be running the same offense next year as we are now. Or at least what MC calls an offense.

And that’s the most frustrating part of this year. We could have had Max/Amir/AA learning their roles and the offense had things been done the way I believe they should have been. We spent the better part of the year catering to AI’s candy crybaby ass that we head into next training camp knwoing no more about anybody than we did this year, save for Stuck. And I’m not exactly sure how that makes evaluating fairly for trade purposes AA/Amir/Max.

I’ve kind of tuned out the Pistons, this isn’t what I’m accustomed to seeing. Reminds me too much of the demise of the Bad Boys.

Let’s see…

1) In a parallel universe, the Darko pick works out fsmously. Darko’s problem is not his skill set, it’s his immaturity. I think Joe D overlooked this. I remember an early Darko interview where he was more interested in figuring how many women he could nail after the game than how many dunks he could nail during it. Then again, you’re 17 and looking at playing in the NBA…what would be your response? Still, that had to have been a red flag his focus might not be all that.

1a) In another parallel universe, we take Bosh, and win ’ships three of the next four years.

1b) In yet another parallel universe, the ping pong ball falls Memphis’ way, LBJ is miserable and tries to get out of town ASAP, even faster than Jerry West even though they win 50 every year. we take some frizzy haired guy from Brazil with the 17th pick.

2) Oh…I believe we’ll be back, certainly within 2-3 years. Maybe not next year though..also what do you do with LBJ in your division?

2a) I believe that FPCB will become FPCB one year earlier than scheduled. Tay will be the trade bait dangled.

2b) If it were up to me, FPCB would be wearing red blue and white alongside David Lee and Trevor Ariza.

3) Dumars is going to blow this baby up a bit, but he has four good guards. Rip will become the Captain and a leader, like he was supposed to after the Chauncey trade. The front line will be rebuilt, and it will be young and hungry. Maybe Dice stays another year.

4) Somehow, amazingly enough, MC develops as a coach. Yes, I’m serious. If he doesn’t…Lawrence Frank, anyone?