The Invisible Man!

Two hat tips in one day!

Man, I’ve been repeating the shit out of those stats on DBB for weeks now. They’re indefensible. I don’t know how anyone can honestly say that we DONT need another starting SF. Use him as a trade piece or move him to the bench (where he could be an ultra-sub), just get him out of the starting unit.

Yeah, because scoring 20 and giving up 60 is better than scoring 0 and giving up 38. This is Detroit’s #1 problem, yep. Uh huh. Sure I’ll buy the Brooklyn Bridge.

If I was Tayshaun, I wouldn’t want to come back to this horseshit.

@Sauce:
You’re not making sense, so its hard to respond. I think you’re saying something about how Prince’s value is his defense, and that makes up for his inability to score when he has a tough defensive assignment. If that is what you’re saying, that’s lottery-type logic— wanting to hang on to a guy who shits the bed when it counts.

I said this last time this argument came up, so I’ll say it again:

“But Tay’s problems are greater than defense. When Tay has a tough defensive assignment, he’s lost on the other end of the court. That is the crux of the problem. So even if we improve our frontcourt bigs, we can still plan on having a gaping wide hole at the 3 on offense.

Tay’s poor offense is a defensive weakness– it means his man doesn’t have to work on D, and can in turn focus on his offensive game alone.

Had Tayshaun maintained his season averages in the playoff ending series for the last three seasons, who knows– its possible we might have another banner hanging from our rafters."

scoring 20 and giving up 60 is better than scoring 0 and giving up 38

And as I said to you, Sauce, It’s not either or. It ain’t black/white. Besides, that argument doesn’t apply here, since the closest Lebron has gotten to 60 in the playoffs was against Tayshaun Prince. 48 for Lebron, 10 for Prince (in 49 minutes).

Then Joe better get rid of Tay and Rip and himself, because this shit is weak. Go after Rasheed, sure, but Tayshaun? What did he fucking do to deserve this ire?

It makes sense to table this ‘problem’ until other bigger problems are fixed, not make this a “let’s just make Tayshaun out to be a big chump” festival.

You’re not making sense, both you and Matt Watson, but it’s pretty easy to respond. Tayshaun is not a poor player, nor is he overpaid.

He’s been a 4th option forever, and now you want him to be the 2nd option? Who’s being sensible again?!?

Then Joe better get rid of Tay and Rip and himself, because this shit is weak. Go after Rasheed, sure, but Tayshaun? What did he fucking do to deserve this ire?

Rip was the only consistently reliable Piston this season in spite of 1) given a contract not knowing your best friend was being traded, 2) moved out of position, 3) moved to the bench behind some contract diva who is a worse player. Rip has a game like Ray Allen and Reggie Miller that will not see much decline into his mid 30s. On the free agent or trade market, I can’t think of any player I’d take over Rip Hamilton that is not a superstar. Rip is the measure of consistency and a PEST on the defensive side of the floor.

In spite of his troubles this season and the performance he had anyway, he should be the only untouchable player going into this summer unless it brings us a perrenial all star stud in return.

but Tayshaun? What did he fucking do to deserve this ire?

Dude, did you read my argument? Did you read the article this post linked to? He’s the weakest link when it really matters.

It makes sense to table this ‘problem’ until other bigger problems are fixed.

Not necessarily, as Tay can be used to solve those other, bigger problems. I’d love to see Tay moved to the WC, where he will likely see an improvement just like Chauncey did. His game works much better there. For us, Tay could help solve the bigger problems and give us a shot at a role player 3 that doesn’t have his offensive weaknesses when the defense is too hard to handle.

You’re not making sense, both you and Matt Watson, but it’s pretty easy to respond. Tayshaun is not a poor player, nor is he overpaid.

I agree, Tay is not a poor player. He’s an efficient, solid role player who has been outgrown in the Eastern Conference. He can start, contribute and be a 3rd option on a Western Conference teams and can shut down all the finesse 3’s and 2’s in that league (like he has done for many seasons)

He’s been a 4th option forever, and now you want him to be the 2nd option? Who’s being sensible again?!?

Whoever said that? Look at the article this post links to. Note that the author pointed out the number of field goals attempted vs. his terrible FG rate. I don’t care if Tay’s the 4th option— I just want his regular season number to translate when the playoffs are on the line, which hasn’t happened IN FOUR YEARS.

You get better players around him, and he goes back to being that great guy he was in a 4th man role. Again, apparently you were hoping for Tayshaun to be a 20 million dollar value superstar guy?!? That was clear he was never going to be that guy in 2005. Joe re-upped him anyway, and by your standards (mirrors Matt Watson’s), that should be grounds for burning Joe Dumars effigies.

Tay isn’t the worst one when it comes to having the chips down in the playoffs. Flip Saunders was, for starters. Arguably, Rasheed was more unstable when it mattered the most.

I can’t stand people who rip on Tayshaun. You show me clips of him saying, “whatever man, the check cashed, so that’s what you got today,” then yeah, fuck that guy.

Efficient solid role player who got outgrown in the Eastern Conference = this guy is overpaid, he blows, christ I hate watching him not do anything I want from my 3 on the court

That’s my best guess on your in-between-the-lines.

Again, apparently you were hoping for Tayshaun to be a 20 million dollar value superstar guy?!?

Honestly, where are you getting this from? When did I ever say that? I just want someone who is serviceable on defense and doesn’t dissappear on offense. I want that out of my 4th option. That’s all I want out of Tayshaun, and when it counts, he has failed three times in a row. All I want, and I’m bold-facing this so you don’t miss it, is for our SF to maintain his season averages into the playoffs. I don’t care if he’s a 4th option or 6th option or 1st, I just don’t want the tremendous, irrefutable (try it) failure that Tayshaun has been in the last three season-ending series.

I can’t stand people who rip on Tayshaun.

I will NEVER rip Tayshaun. I love Tayshaun. He has been one of my favorite Pistons since he replaced Michael Curry in 2002-03. I’m not Ripping on Tay here, I’m ripping on his absymal performance when it counts.

In the end, I want my team to win— and I’m willing to part with an underperformer with a solid heart if it means a performer with a chip on his shoulder. I’m not talking a money hungry asshole, but someone who will ACTUALLY PERFORM AT THE END OF THE DAY WHEN IT MATTERS.

this guy is overpaid, he blows, christ I hate watching him not do anything I want from my 3 on the court

You must be reading a different book. I’ve never said he’s overpaid, I’ve never said he blows, but I will gladly admit that I hate seeing him be a total failure in the last three season-ending series.

Not just because I hate to lose, but I sincerely feel bad for him when he struggles.

Look, you haven’t given a single defense against the fact that he has failed our team when it counted, that his performance has killed us in the playoffs. You say: You get better players around him, and he goes back to being that great guy he was in a 4th man role. but are those players going to solve his failures on the offensive end when it really counts? NO.

I was fine with Michael Curry as the starting 3. I like the Pistons recent tradition of having 4th options or worse @ the 3. I could care less if Tayshaun keeps doing what he does, so long as we have a dominant 1 and 5. Everything else is way easier to replace. Joe D didn’t get that memo.

The way LeBron’s playing, nobody’s going to stop him, but there are worse guys than Tayshaun out there at doing that. You guys and your stats are ignoring that this guy has put in a lot of time with this team, and while he hasn’t been great in the playoffs, he hasn’t been the worst player I’ve ever seen out there. If we get a 4 and a 5 who we can count on, then yeah, let’s start exploring options about how to replace or improve the 3. It’s too early to keep pointing.

I think we should just get rid of everyone who had a spot on that ‘04 club, including Joe D as the GM, since it would be the kind of break and change people seem to crave. Arguing about Tayshaun is pointless. He’s worth the money, is a solid 3, and he isn’t as bad in the playoffs as you guys keep wanting him to be, by your words. He isn’t a 2nd option, and for the money, he’s not a bad 4th option. Replace your 1st and 3rd options, and he’s good again.

You guys point to Prince not getting it done “when it matters,” but it matters in every playoff game. In the Philly and Orlando series, Tayshaun performed well. I think what you and Watson want is a guy who can hold his own against LeBron, and get his points. That guy doesn’t exist, does he?

If Tayshaun doesn’t handle Philly’s 3 montage and Hedo/Lewis, we don’t even get shamed by Boston, and he isn’t even in a post here for you guys to point fingers.

Find guys who maintained their season averages against LeBron in the playoffs …

Let’s look at a guy, at random … Paul Pierce …

Game 1, ’08 vs. Cleveland, Paul not so hot.

Game 2 (my guess without investigating further … Boston’s team D handled LeBron, took the pressure off Pierce, I’m running blind in my guess here)

Game 3, Pierce not averaging his season-20-ppg, here

Game 4, Pierce 13 points, you can’t sell me on Pierce being a great defender on his own

Game 5, the anomaly … Pierce gets 29, LeBron gets 35, not really handling him, but this is the first game where Pierce has a better showing than his season averages, at least on offense

Boston loses its 10th game of the playoffs in Game 6, as Paul scores 16 but lets LeBron nail 32

This Game 7 throws focus on Pierce and LeBron out the window … both teams let Pierce and LeBron have their way, and LeBron scores 45, Pierce 41.

Is Pierce a better player than Prince? Offensively, leaps and bounds, yes. But the majority of this series, Paul couldn’t handle LeBron.

I think what you and Watson want is a guy who can hold his own against LeBron, and get his points. That guy doesn’t exist, does he?

I want a guy who can maintain his season averages per attempt into the playoffs. That’s it. Hell, even Richard Fucking Jefferson did that against Lebron. You know how much it hurts me to type that? Caron Butler did it too. Shit, even Jarvis Fucking Hayes did that when Caron was out in 2007.

Whether Lebron faces Hedo or Pierce in the next round, I don’t expect either of those players to dissappear against Lebron on the offensive end.

That’s all I want. I don’t want a dissappearing act. Third time’s the charm, that’s what Tayshaun has proven he is by his record.

I had a bunch of links on how lousy Paul Pierce was, in sum, vs. Cleveland last year, but I don’t know if this post is on lockdown, or what.

Pierce did fucking terrible vs. the Cavs last year. The guy you want doesn’t exist. One 41 point outburst isn’t going to change the shit performances he turned in … and the big-ass points he gave up to LeBron when it was just them two on each other.

@Sauce:
You mean when Pierce maintained his season average in the playoffs against Lebron? Including that 41 point game that won them the series?

Prince was doing just fine vs. Orlando and Philly. You missed that part of it, keying in on his ‘disappearing act’ in ‘elimination series,’ like all of you guys think he’s primarily responsible for Detroit not advancing …

It’s more a symptom of the team defense eroding against the top teams … yeah we hold teams down in points, still … but we really are doing it more with pace now than we are doing it by actively playing great team defense. We remind me of the lousier slower-paced teams of recent years …. teams like Portland.

Yeah, I forgot Sauce— who won that series?

The refs.

If Cleveland and Boston face, this year, I don’t know what to expect. More pressure’s on Paul Pierce to score, so he should get his points, but he’ll do it really ineffectively, poor percentages, most likely. LeBron was also playing lights-out 1-on-1 defense, to go along with his other-worldly o-game.

Paul Pierce made roughly twice the salary that Tayshaun did this year. That means he should be twice as good, right?

We’re lucky we get what we get from the 4th option, for the price Joe paid.

Paul Pierce made roughly twice the salary that Tayshaun did this year. That means he should be twice as good, right?

The NBA does not work like that.

We’re lucky we get what we get from the 4th option, for the price Joe paid.

No, we’re not. Unless we’ve payed for failure in the playoffs 3 years in a row. If that’s what he’s paying for, then yeah— we’re lucky.

Might as well just end this argument now, there’s no way in hell I’m changing my opinion on Tayshaun, due to the facts at hand. I know you to well to know you won’t change yours either, buddy. We can likely do this until we’re blue in the face.

2/3s of Tayshaun’s playoffs was a success.

Due to the facts at hand, you and Matt Watson are dead wrong about Tayshaun. There’s bigger fish to fry, anyway. I want you guys to devote rip pieces to Sheed, Curry, and Hamilton, as lovingly as this one was done. Then, that’ll be fun.

At least go after Joe Dumars. Going after Tayshaun, first, is silly.

He’s paying a whole team to fail, that’s a lot of Davidson family money right down the pisser, but they made a profit I guess, so hey, they’re doing a better job than the Lions.

That’s what I loved about the Pistons, as an aside … the NBA doesn’t work like that. Yes, nobody worked like the Bad Boys, or the Work Boys. And they were successful.

The minute that isn’t available, I don’t care about this team, in particular. It goes from being my favorite team to being something I shun at first mention.

2/3s of Tayshaun’s playoffs was a success.

You mean the series’ that didn’t matter? When we lost, Tay was the weakest link. You can’t deny that.

I want you guys to devote rip pieces to Sheed, Curry, and Hamilton, as lovingly as this one was done.

Why? Sheed is no longer a Piston (although he did maintain his season averages in the playoffs, firecracker personality or not). Curry is an idiot. Hamilton is one of the only Pistons that doesn’t deserve to be ripped.

This isn’t personal against Tay, just business, Sauce. You tell me one industry in the world of business where a guy can fail, year-in-year out, when it really mattered, where that guy wouldn’t be on the hot seat (or already fired).

Can’t believe we’re still having this argument. It’s like trying to explain to an AI fan why volume shooters suck. Reason + blind fanhood = circular arguments.

It’s just business to go after the guy that put this shit together. Might as well go after the bigger fish, Mike Payne. Why should Joe Dumars get a free pass? This blog should become “why Joe Dumars has to step it up or ship it out” central.

This is nothing more than a series of hit pieces against the guy. You call it a series that matters most, I call it ignoring the 2 series that he played well before that … the series to help get ‘em to that point. Again, you are making it out like he’s supposed to be the 2nd option.

You might want to clue in Curry to not just throw Prince by himself on James, while you’re at it.

What if Detroit got bounced by Philly in the first round? It’s Prince’s fault, right?

@Sauce:
I’ll say it again, this time bold-faced: Reason + blind fanhood = circular arguments.

You’re offsetting the argument on Dumars, then blaming Curry (when Curry wasn’t here the last two years that Tayshaun failed), then trumpeting Tay’s success against a team that won’t be relevant in the East for years to come. All the while, hiding from the crux of my argument.

Circular arguments.

Let’s just agree to disagree, there’s no reason to waste very public space on DBB for a discussion that’s going nowhere. Sure, its down-time, but there are others here that get nothing from reading this.

You’re ignoring everything Prince does that is positive. It’s not as fair a treatment as what Iverson got here, to start … why the fuck is Prince the primary focus for all of Detroit’s ills? We don’t have AI to kick around anymore?

I’ll agree that you and Matt Watson are wrong.

Sauce:

What if the argument is framed differently.

As a supporting player, I really like Tayshaun. When we won the chip, he was a support player, and we could defer scoring to CB, Tip, Sheed, Memo, and even Corliss at backup SF.

However, our needs from Tay evolved as a team as we lost players from the chip-wining team and as players who provided a scoring punch got older (i.e., Sheed).

The point isn’t necessarily that Tay is a bad player; the point is that what we needed from him as the team evolved (devolved?), namely consistent scoring AND defense, he hasn’t been able to provide.

Thoughts?

No.

I’m going to back Sauce up on this one. I get your guys’ point, but Tay is what he is. If he’s higher than a fourth option, your team is in trouble. But that’s how we were supposed to be – we have Rasheed Wallace as our power forward. Isn’t he supposed to be good at the game of basketball? Sheed stopped giving a shit. That doesn’t mean that we should ask Tay to be more than what he is. It just means that we need to bring in a power forward who’s going to score so that Tay we’re need Tay to be more than the fourth option.

We can lose him for a guy who doesn’t disappear, but will shoot you out of a game like Jefferson or Artest. But we’ll miss him. He’s one of the premiere glue guys in the game, fits his role to what you need without bitching about it, and NEVER misses a game. I mean, we had his scrawny ass playing power forward for a month this year. Combine that with the fact that he played USA ball and more minutes this season than ever in his career – we should be a bit more appreciative of what he really did this year. You don’t judge Shane Battier by his numbers, and Tay is a rich man’s Battier.

As to his defense, I’ve said before that if we take care of our big man problem, he goes back to being an elite defender.

I know you’ve got your opinion MP – I’m not planning on changing anyone’s mind, just giving another perspective.

I’m not planning on changing anyone’s mind, just giving another perspective.

Fair enough, I appreciate your points. I certainly don’t want it to seem like I’m not aware of Prince’s positives. I know what he has accomplished and what he means to this team. But as I’ve said, even if we bring in a solid scoring big and Tay is still the 4th option, its not going to improve his offensive performance when he has a hefty defensive assignment.

I love Tay, always will. Should he be traded, I’ll treat his new team like I do the Denver Nuggets. However, there has been nothing said by anyone on DBB to defend this— Tay has failed us when it really matters. I couldn’t care less about Team USA. Consecutive game streaks mean nothing to me. What matters to me is that the Detroit Pistons win, and win big. And for every single playoff season in the future where we face Paul Pierce, Danny Granger, possibly Michael Beasley— let alone Lebron James, the offensive hole at the 3 will kill us. Season after season after season.

We won championships with guys who didn’t score a lot @ the 3.

See, I don’t think it kills us because he’s our fourth option. If the matchup is Tay vs. LBJ, we know we’re going to look to get our points elsewhere and him averaging 10 points per game isn’t crippling. Maybe it’s Stucky consistently going to post up Mo Williams – Mo can’t stop that. Maybe we ask our four to embarrass Jeff Foster. Rip can run Boston’s wings off the floor. And if it’s a team that Tay matches up well against like Orlando, Toronto, Chicago, well, then we can look for more out of Tay.

That’s the way this team is built and I love that about it. Some teams are going to be able to shut down some of our guys – like what Rondo did to Chauncey. But we’re balanced so that if, say, big man yet to be named is dominated by Dwight Howard, then we’re ok with them putting up a clunker because Tay and Rip are great against Orlando. Tay can score on Hedo and Lewis all day whereas a power SF would probably get shut down by them.

We won championships with guys who didn’t score a lot @ the 3.

Circular arguments. I never said we needed a lot of scoring at teh three. Like I’ve said a million times upthread, I just want a guy to maintain his season averages instead of falling apart when it really matters.

No, you’re the circular argument re: no more Tayshaun. You miss the big picture, and it’s tiring.

So you want a 3 who scores, and if that’s a 23 ppg guy, maybe with average or poor defense, then fuck defense. You want Grant Hill?

I want Dennis Rodman pre-psycho (NO RON ARTEST) and Tayshaun Prince. I want the scoring from elsewhere. There is no LeBron option we can get, unless we draft it, and I don’t ever want the Pistons to legitimately see the lottery again in my lifetime.

If we get Lamar Odom, it’ll be different, but we still don’t have a solid 4-5. No more new holes made to fill old holes.

Deliver us magic holes filled @ the 4-5, Joe Dumars. Do not keep fucking dealing shit that isn’t broke. The bigs have been the problem the last 2 seasons. The bigs, not the wing and the guards. The bigs.

You are missing the big picture.

The bigs.

The bigs

bigs

big

problem bigs

problem

big problem.

If the matchup is Tay vs. LBJ, we know we’re going to look to get our points elsewhere and him averaging 10 points per game isn’t crippling.

Averaging 10 is one thing— averaging 3.3 ppg? That is the definition of crippling.

Tay can score on Hedo and Lewis all day whereas a power SF would probably get shut down by them.

Even including one bad game where he shot 25%, Pierce is still maintaining his season average against Orlando. Pierce, like Lebron, is a quintessential Power SF.

The thing is, the guys who Tayshaun does well against— the Iguodalas, the Turkoglus… are the same guys EVERY playoff small forward does well against.

@Sauce:
So you want a 3 who scores

See, this is why its a circular argument. You’re not listening to me. I WANT A SERVICEABLE SMALL FORWARD WHO CAN MAINTAIN HIS SEASONAL SCORING AVERAGES WHEN GIVEN A TOUGH DEFENSIVE ASSIGNMENT.

That’s it. That’s it. Nothing more. I want a guy who doesn’t dissappear in the clutch. It has been our achilles heel 3 playoff-ending series in a row. IMO, it is as big a problem as our PF spot. Fortunately, we have the cap space to fix both right now.

Those guys hardly exist, and we have to trade more than it’s worth to get them. I’ve been ignoring it because you aren’t likely to get it. Tayshaun is not the achilles heel. That is the coaching. You don’t get it. I’m sorry.

THERE ARE BIGGER PROBLEMS THAN TAYSHAUN PRINCE, YOU FEEL ME?!?! THERE ARE BIGGER PROBLEMS THAN TAYSHAUN PRINCE, YOU FEEL ME?!?! THERE ARE BIGGER PROBLEMS THAN TAYSHAUN PRINCE, YOU FEEL ME?!?! THERE ARE BIGGER PROBLEMS THAN TAYSHAUN PRINCE, YOU FEEL ME?!?! THERE ARE BIGGER PROBLEMS THAN TAYSHAUN PRINCE, YOU FEEL ME?!?! THERE ARE BIGGER PROBLEMS THAN TAYSHAUN PRINCE, YOU FEEL ME?!?! THERE ARE BIGGER PROBLEMS THAN TAYSHAUN PRINCE, YOU FEEL ME?!?! THERE ARE BIGGER PROBLEMS THAN TAYSHAUN PRINCE, YOU FEEL ME?!?! THERE ARE BIGGER PROBLEMS THAN TAYSHAUN PRINCE, YOU FEEL ME?!?!

You don’t get it.

You feel me?

You don’t get it. You and Matt Watson are dead fucking wrong. You are dead … fucking … wrong.

I will say it again.

You are wrong.

WRONG.

You’re still wrong.

Even including one bad game where he shot 25%, Pierce is still maintaining his season average against Orlando. Pierce, like Lebron, is a quintessential Power SF.

The thing is, the guys who Tayshaun does well against– the Iguodalas, the Turkoglus… are the same guys EVERY playoff small forward does well against.

…

See, this is why its a circular argument. You’re not listening to me. I WANT A SERVICEABLE SMALL FORWARD WHO CAN MAINTAIN HIS SEASONAL SCORING AVERAGES WHEN GIVEN A TOUGH DEFENSIVE ASSIGNMENT.

That’s it. That’s it. Nothing more. I want a guy who doesn’t dissappear in the clutch. It has been our achilles heel 3 playoff-ending series in a row. IMO, it is as big a problem as our PF spot. Fortunately, we have the cap space to fix both right now.

Tay is fine against Orlando, Atlanta, Miami, Philly, and Chicago. So the only two playoff teams he’s not good against are the two best defensive teams in the league. And he’s not the only guy on the team you can point to as not “hitting his season averages” against them. Rip averaged 5 points below his season averages against Cleveland and Boston this year. Stuckey averaged 7 points per game against those two teams. And what SF out there hits his season averages against Lebron James?

Tay has out-scored Sheed in the postseason two of the previous three years, years you say he was our Achilles’ heel. He was our number three scorer in both of those years. You dismiss him playing well against Orlando and Philly because everyone does well against them, but say all you want is a serviceable SF who can maintain his season averages against a tough matchup – well, Hedo, Lewis, and Iggy are the best scorers on their teams.

You’re more than free to your opinion, but I’m just not feeling your argument.

A lot to get through here…

Tay is fine against Orlando, Atlanta, Miami, Philly, and Chicago.

Only one of which is slated to be a long term elite team as presently constructed, the Chicago Bulls. Besides, is it wrong to want more against the elite teams in the ECF? Should we just wave the white flag or try to improve our shortcomings?

Rip averaged … Stuckey averaged …

If they do it three seasons in a row, you’ll find me right back here calling for a change.

Tay has out-scored Sheed in the postseason two of the previous three years, years you say he was our Achilles’ heel.

Yeah— Tay has out-scored Sheed every year for the last THREE seasons. In the regular season. But Sheed has maintained his averages into the playoffs. Sheed hasn’t dissappeared in the playoffs (this year, he did so, understandably. guy’s gone) whereas Tayshaun has.

well, Hedo, Lewis, and Iggy are the best scorers on their teams.

Hedo and Lewis are the second and third scorers on their team, and don’t forget about Jameer Nelson’s monster season, who was even with Hedo in ppg. But that’s besides the point, I don’t see what those guys being the best scorers on their team has to do with Tayshaun’s greatest weakness. That when the defensive task is heavy, he’s a failure on both ends.

You’re more than free to your opinion, but I’m just not feeling your argument.

You’re more than welcome to not feel my argument. You and Sauce don’t have to agree with me, but I haven’t seen either of you say anything to deny the fact that Tay is a failure on O when a tough SF pushes him around on D. Since those types of players are the gatekeepers of our conference, I want more. I’m sick of failing year after year, and I’m sick of a dissappearing Tayshaun Prince.

You’re still wrong.

Congratulations, you found a flaw in Prince, one that you’re using to blame the last 3 years on.

Still wrong.

MP – Yes, Tay is not good offensively against physical defenders. But since you’ve basically said the only team that matters is Cleveland (since Pierce has a year or two left of relevance), who keeps their season average when defended by Lebron James? Who is this serviceable small forward who can put up the same numbers against Lebron James that he puts up against every other team in the league?

If Tay equals fail then maybe we could re-sign Walter Herrmann and put him at the starting SF spot?

Who is this serviceable small forward who can put up the same numbers against Lebron James that he puts up against every other team in the league?

Paul Pierce
Richard Jefferson
Caron Butler
Bruce Bowen
Jarvis Hayes (ugh)

In some cases, there is a 2 point =/- variance, but this is VERY different from putting up 25% of your season numbers in the playoffs (as the subject of this discussion has)

If Tay equals fail then maybe we could re-sign Walter Herrmann and put him at the starting SF spot?

I never said Tay = Fail. I said that when it comes down to the wire, his performance has failed us. Three seasons in a row. I dont’ know what its going to take before others begin to prefer an upgrade at the three spot.

I, for one, am not going to sit on my hands and let Lebron James just get the Eastern Conference’s blessing for the next five years. I prefer to give him one hell of a nasty fight. That ain’t happening with Prince, as much as I love the guy.

If I had a dime for every time my words were misunderstood or taken out of context in this thread, I’d have traded for Gerald Wallace with that money by now.

Here’s an actual substantive, relevant question: since Marvin Williams is one of the SFs possibly targeted, how has he fared against LeBron?

http://espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?playerId=2797

In all fairness, M.Williams appeared in just six games this postseason due to a wrist injury (that forced him to miss a chunk of the last month of the season, too). His regular season career against LBJ: http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/tiny.cgi?id=x4h6l

I’m going to back Sauce up on this one. I get your guys’ point, but Tay is what he is. If he’s higher than a fourth option, your team is in trouble.

My point is that Tay is no longer our fourth option; hence, our team is in trouble.

So the question is: can we rebuild the team, i.e., build a roster in which Tay would be option 4, without trading. And I still think that Tay and Rip are both good trade bait — established players with reasonable contracts.

MP, if those are the guys you want, all right. I’ll take Tay. Maybe the thing to do would just be to identify a guy who could match up well as a backup and guy we’d like to develop to take over Tay’s spot who could play LBJ effectively. cough, DaJuan Summers, cough Afflalo handled himself well against LBJ defensively and he has the type of game on offense that it takes to at least get things done against LJB: can shoot, can attack the basket, can play aggressively. Since Tay’s fine against every other EC team (and you said only the Bulls look relevant for the long term, and Tay can destroy Deng), maybe the thing to do is just play Afflalo more against the Cavs.

brgulker – Absolutely. That’s the reason advocate a legit, established 20-10 player this summer even with the red flags most of them have rather than buying a guy on upside like Millsap or Lee.

I understand the frustration about Tay’s offense. He’s got the offensive skill set that he could be more of a force than he is. But for some reason, that’s just not who he is. You ask what it would take for others to start wanting to upgrade the three spot. Well, I see Tay as a rich man’s Shane Battier. You don’t judge Battier by his numbers, and that’s the case for most glue guys. His defense also sucked against James this postseason – I agree with that. I shook my head every time he easily got taken off the dribble. My opinion is that if our big men challenge guys taking it to the hoop and send 5 shots a game into the stands, then Tay looks like a better defender (since no one wants to have to shoot over Tay). But if that’s not the case, if we upgrade our big men and they start playing real defense, discouraging folks from driving, and Tay still looks mediocre on defense – that’s when I’ll want an upgrade.

But as of right now, to me the only guy you mentioned who is an upgrade is Caron Butler – and ironically, he also sucks offensively against James.

@Shinons:
But if that’s not the case, if we upgrade our big men and they start playing real defense, discouraging folks from driving, and Tay still looks mediocre on defense – that’s when I’ll want an upgrade.

That’s the thing man, I was furious last season with Tay’s performance against Pierce. The season before, against Cleveland, I was mostly pissed at Chauncey (as many turnovers as assists in that series, allowing Boobie Gibson to explode). But I’ve reached my breaking point, and with Rasheed out the only weakness at the wire on this squad has been Tay.

My opinion is that if our big men challenge guys taking it to the hoop and send 5 shots a game into the stands, then Tay looks like a better defender (since no one wants to have to shoot over Tay)

And that’s the thing, again, this isn’t going to solve the problem of Tay dissappearing offensively. If Tay were a 5th option even, a center like Ben Wallace you know is only worth 2-6ppg, that’s okay. But if you’re not getting 12+ out of your SF in the post-season, year after year after year, you’ve got to address that.

I’m okay with bringing in a guy to start OVER Tay situationally, giving Tay the start in the other games.

But as of right now, to me the only guy you mentioned who is an upgrade is Caron Butler – and ironically, he also sucks offensively against James.

Those were not players I’d want on our squad, those were players who have held their season averages against Lebron historically (within a point or two in either direction). Hell, I’d never want Jarvis Hayes on this squad again, but I included him there as he was tasked with playing against Lebron when Butler was out.

An Caron doesn’t suck offensively against James. He shot 46% against Lebron last year, and was within a point or two of his season average.

As Sauce quipped above and Matt defended, Marvin Williams could be the guy. I mentioned him as one of a few players I’d like in our SF spot next season: Odom, Artest, Marion, Williams. Williams is the youngest, likely the cheapest and has the most upside. He was abysmal in the playoffs this year, but an injured wrist will do that to ya.

The guy is big. 6’9" 240. He won’t get muscled around by Lebron or Pierce, but he is QUICK, fast enough to defend finesse 3s on the perimeter or the drive. His quickness regularly gives his defenders problems, and as a result he gets to the line— a lot. Hollinger’s report, here, shows a bit more detail: http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/players/hollinger?playerId=2797&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fnba%2fplayers%2fhollinger%3fplayerId%3d2797

On offense, his jumper is something to behold. Look him up on NBA hotspots (nba.com/hotspots) and look at his shot chart.

Here’s a comparison of these two players most recent seasons:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=princta01&y1=2009&p2=willima02&y2=2009

The main thing to note is William’s age: 22.

I’m a fan of Marvin Williams, but is he attainable? He seems pretty essential to the Hawk’s core. I’d be totally willing to invest in him, but it seems like ATL would probably match. Not to mention he’s the dude they took over Chris Paul…

The other three, I have trouble seeing them as an upgrade over Tay.

@Shinons:
This is a great read on the subject:
http://nbaroundtable.wordpress.com/2009/02/27/2009-cap-space-atlanta/

Is Williams worth $7m/yr? Could we afford to spend that money after signing a solid PF? Tough call.

I’m still keen on those Prince + expiring to NO for West rumors, although they aren’t really rumors. If that happened, we’d have $$ to sign both Williams AND Gortat, not to mention the money leftover + Brown’s expiring to fix anything that isn’t appearing to work come 2010.

I doubt we’d have the money leftover after trying to sign Williams to bring in another major free agent. But we could probably make a move like Tay for Brand or something along those lines and still have enough space to clear the salary. I just have a hard time thinking ATL would let Williams walk. Think about it:

Marvin Williams: 22
Josh Smith: 23
Al Horford: 22

And with all those point guards in the draft this year – Lawson, Teague, Holiday, Maynor, Flynn, Collison, or maybe even Curry if he pulls a Danny Granger come draft day – they can get one hell of a core going regardless of what they decide to do about Johnson. I’d be happy to pay him $7 mil a year, but I just don’t think it’s realistic.

Oh yeah, and Patrick Mills too, for the Boomers among us…

the only way i see atl letting williams leave is if childress comes back to the team. and even then, i see them doing a sign and trade vs. just letting him walk.

I think it all comes down to what the Hawks think about the free agent market, and what they think they can get out of it. They could make a play for Ramon Sessions from Milwaukee, whom Milwaukee can’t afford to keep (but would be entirely stupid to let go). Spending an equivalent amount on Sessions ($7 million / year or more) gives them a tremendous line, and to facilitate that they could offer the MLE to Childress and remain under the cap. This starting line for Atlanta is better than no point guard and keeping Marvin at the 3:

Ramon Sessions
Joe Johnson
Josh Childress
Josh Smith
Al Horford

I don’t think there’s a point guard in the draft that can hold a candle to sessions, but then again I’ve been his Number One Fan since I saw his 25 assist game against Chicago two seasons ago.

Point being, it really depends on what Atlanta wants to do with the PG position— that determines whether or not they’ll be able to sew up Williams to an extension.

brgulker – Absolutely. That’s the reason advocate a legit, established 20-10 player this summer even with the red flags most of them have rather than buying a guy on upside like Millsap or Lee.

Via FA, isn’t Boozer the only option there? Or, have I missed someone there?

But, even if we sign Boozer, I still think that we have a gaping hole at the starting 5 and a gaping hole at back up 3.

In other words, Current Pistons + Boozer does not equal contender.

That’s a good point, definitely possible. Then they could use the draft to work on building up their depth. Well, if it’d work out that way I’d be perfectly fine with us going with Williams. And if we went that way we’d pretty much need to move Tay. One that would make sense would be your West+Posey for Tay deal, as we’d still have the cap space to make it work – and Posey would give us a guy who plays LBJ about as well as anyone in the league.

Stuck/MFWB
Rip/AA
Williams/Posey
West
KwaMirMax
*Plus first round pick

I’m not sure that puts us back into 50 win territory, but it’s at least a solid, flexible rotation. Hell, as we learned lineup Joe built before, it doesn’t matter what the team looks like on paper. By the way, that squad really deserves a moniker. That ways in 10 years when we refer to our different championship squads, it’s the Bad Boys, the _, and the DBB Commenters plus Wade era.

Via FA, isn’t Boozer the only option there? Or, have I missed someone there?

Via FA, yes. But there’s also the “salary dump” route (Brand, West, Jamison), the “disgruntled youngster” route (Bosh, Stoudemire), or even the “I would rather swim in a fishtank filled with ”http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toothpick_fish" rel="nofollow">toothpick fish" route (Zach Randolph). There’s an amazing number of 20-10 players who could be realistically required right now.

But, even if we sign Boozer, I still think that we have a gaping hole at the starting 5 and a gaping hole at back up 3.

I still think KwaMirMax can handle the starting 5, although bringing in someone like Camby if we get a 4 cheap enough would certainly be better. And we’ve also got our first rounder – hopefully this year we’ll actually use it on a rotation player…

In other words, Current Pistons + Boozer does not equal contender.

I think there’s three keys: Stuckey improving his consistency, a post player we can get near 20-10 from, and our big men focusing on protecting the paint. There’s also the obvious MC, but just focusing on a roster standpoint, those are what I think need to happen for us to get back to 50+.

No thanks to James Posey. His contract is ugly and he isn’t a good player anymore. Now, if Julian Wright was included, I’m all for it.

I didn’t know what a toothpick fish was, but given the context, I managed to guess right.

@Birdman:
No thanks to James Posey. His contract is ugly and he isn’t a good player anymore. Now, if Julian Wright was included, I’m all for it.

But that ugly contract gets us David West and his extremely sexy contract. IMO, David West is the best value PF in the game right now— a 20/10 guy on the CHEAP. I’d love to see NO make that move, likely for prince and amir, although we’ll likely never see the day.

@Shinons:
I still think KwaMirMax can handle the starting 5, although bringing in someone like Camby if we get a 4 cheap enough would certainly be better.

How are you on the joel-inspired appreciation of Marcin Gortat? I think he’d be solid at the 5 with plenty of upside. This has been a favored lineup of mine for a bit now:

Stuckey/MFWB
Rip/AA
Williams/Posey
West/Maxiell
Gortat/Brown

Nice thing is, we’ve got $$ leftover plus Brown’s $4 million expiring to add depth / move things around in 2010. You’re right, it may not be a 50 win team just yet, but with the right coach it could hold its own against anyone else in the Eastern Conference.

At best, if we could get 16/6 from Stuck
18/4/4 from Rip
16/5 from Williams
20/9 from West
10/10/2 from Gortat

That 80 balanced points before WILL MOTHERFUCKING BYNUM COMES IN AND DROPS 26 ON YOUR ASSES IN THE 4TH, BITCHES.

How are you on the joel-inspired appreciation of Marcin Gortat? I think he’d be solid at the 5 with plenty of upside.

I like what I’ve seen from him. He’s physical, blocks shots, hits the boards hard, seems to play smart, and is active. If we could find the second coming of Przybilla for cheap, awesome.

No thanks to James Posey. His contract is ugly and he isn’t a good player anymore. Now, if Julian Wright was included, I’m all for it.

I like Julian Wright a lot. Byron Scott doesn’t. If we could get Wright added to that deal, I would be one happy camper. I’m sure we’d have to spice up our side of it with Amir or Max though. Maybe they’d want Sheed in a sign and trade.

I didn’t know what a toothpick fish was, but given the context, I managed to guess right.

Zach Randoph’s career, in a nutshell.

In all fairness, Tayshaun was hurt this series. Maybe Curry should have made Tayshaun sit.

Perhaps we should ask McG if he has any spare Terminators left over … perhaps we can build a 6’10, 250 lb. beast who runs a 4.2 40 and can dribble better than Allen Iverson, dunk it better than Dr. J, pass it better than Billups, rebound better than Dennis Rodman …

Reading DBB anymore is like reading what Ski Lo would come up with for thoughts.

I wish I was a little bit taller …

I wish I could trade Tayshaun Prince for a guy who can beat LeBron James and get his points …

I wish I had a rabbit in a hat and the Pistons trade for the Cavaliers roster …

You basically just described LeBron.

Yeah.

None of this solves the problem @ 4 and 5 without creating a hole @ 2 and 3.

I want a couple posts about how Joe D’s kids blow. Let’s definitely trade Amir and Max, I really can’t see how anyone could think we should keep those nobs around any longer!

Where’s my hit piece about Barney Fife, I mean Michael Curry?

Tayshaun is the root of all Detroit’s ills. You heard it here first on DBB!

In the 2009 draft, Joe is going to draft a 33 year old rookie and a guy who has Parkinson’s disease. Because that 33 year old is going to be the answer @ the 5, and the Parkinson’s disease guy can keep Walter Sharpe company on the bench.

This thread is exhausting.

It’s Skee-Lo. Show the man some respect by spelling his name right. He had some decent tracks besides “I Wish”.

Sauce,

Have you ever heard of the Straw Man?

@Colin:
This thread is exhausting.

Agreed, sorry that I was part of it… Last thing I want is to be annoying during the slow part of the season!

Yeah, you’re it Colin.

Any time you want me to beat you, say the word. Tayshaun’s already beaten enough by DBB.

MP, DBB, you’re still wrong. I love you as a doormat.

Almost at 100 comments. Pretty good for an “alley oop.”

@QD:
That

Might be

a record.

“Last thing I want is to be annoying during the slow part of the season!”

Haha. Funny.

Don’t worry LawyerBoy. Your annoying record is safe.

@MP: No worries, I’ve definitely gotten in my fair share of pointless debates.

@Sauce: Clever. You almost brought it up to a middle schooler’s level there. Mazel Tov.

@Sauce:
Don’t worry LawyerBoy. Your annoying record is safe.

See, that’s the nice thing about DBB, no matter how much we disagree in a thread, we can always agree on SOMETHING.

Colin: I think that’s the first time “Mazel Tov” has been used on DBB. If that’s not the case, if someone could point me to a previous usage, I would be quite pleased. Otherwise, +1 to you, sir.

You got something against early grades, Colin?

LB: DBB is nothing if not multiculutral.

Vaffanculo a Lei, la sua moglie, e’ la sua madre, Colin.

Sauce: Disfrutala.

http://sonic.net/maledicta/vaffanculo.html

Colin, verpiss dich!

@Sauce1977

Tayshaun Prince is no longer the answer at SF. He is an overrated defender at his position, he is not dominant in any aspect of the game of basketball. It’s time for him to go.

@Mike Payne

Mazel tov!

@Boney:
Sláinte Mhaith, brathair. (or so my paganic forest forefathers would say eons ago)

À votre santé!
  —Erik Satie

Start with Joe Dumars, Boney. He’s an overrated fat GM who has no clue about young talent, and I can’t say he is a great tradesman anymore, not after giving up Chauncey for dribbling spam.

Tayshaun Prince owns you all. He didn’t deserve this attention.

The true measure of a GM is his waistband.