Denver almost settled for Tinsley …

Nice job with the italics there me…

@QuickDarshan and Shinons:
I agree 100%, couldn’t have said it better myself in either situation re: Joe Dumars, Larry Brown and Free Agents / Trade.

The basic duality is this:

(1) Pro-Joe. From 2003-04 on, only the Spurs have more championships (and if LA doesn’t win this year, make that from 2002-03 on). Heck, take away a shot or two in the ‘05 series, then Detroit has to ’ships and was CLEARLY the best franchise in at least a five year span. Also, Detroit has gone further, more often, in the playoffs than any other team in that period. Joe did this without any superstars, did some great “reclamation” projects with a number of players, and was smart enough to pick Tayshaun in the draft. It was tough to lose Ben, but he wanted too much money, and his performance since then hasn’t made that decision look stupid. Brown left because he’s Brown. As to Chauncey, we all love him, and in the short term it hurt, but no team can be dominant forever, it was time to blow things up, and now we can move on to the next era with a lot of cap space. Bottom line: compare Detroit to pretty much everybody else in this era, and we look good.

(2) Anti-Joe. This team could have/should have won more. What about losing to the Cavs in the ECF? Had we taken Bosh (or maybe any one of a number of players) instead of Darko, we would be looking at a three-peat Pistons team. But even short of that, why could we never get a good bench, either through a trade, FA acquisition, or draft? How much does one stinking decent/consistent backup SF cost and are they really that hard to find? A decent bench could have gotten as more ‘ships as well. AI was a disaster, MCIAFI, even with a lot of cap space we’re unlikely to get guys who will make us competitive for a championship in the naer future.

Thing is, BOTH those stories are true. The next five years are crucial for his legacy.

TJ,

Those are both true, but I see them as two parts of one story. It’s not a tale of two GM’s, it’s a story about a GM who’s pretty fucking good at what he does, but also made one huge mistake and several others of varying magnitude. If you tell it as one narrative, it’s hard not to be satisfied with his effort so far. However, you are correct regarding the importance of the next five years to his legacy.

I love the “Joe D. didn’t do anything” during the Pistons run. Like, he didn’t draft Tay after 20+ teams passed on him to help set up the run. Didn’t manuever the trade for Sheed to allow himself the ability to resign him. Prior to the run, traded Stackhouse for Rip.

And this ignores simple human trait: Who the hell is coming to Det in the last 6 years that isn’t coming as a backup? Who is signing that says, yeah, I’ll take less money and a backup role except a guy like Dyess? (bless his heart) Certainly not any youngster who wants to start. Anybody got any names on guys like that? “Joe D. didn’t fortify the backup SF. Didn’t get this or that”. I beleive he got Max in the second round or late first. Don’t think some 25+ teams aren’t kicking themselves. MFWB. But if you’re going to sign a guy to come in as a backup, then you’re selling the guy on a possible chip (older guys) or a youngster to be part of that group and you’re going to have to overpay long-term to keep this guy happy because he’s going to be a backup or perhaps overpay for a short term to give yourself the most options.

But to say he didn’t get young guys in the pipeline is going to be tough when you’re picking in the late 20’s every year. And I truly believe we wouldn’t have competed for a chip this year with CB. We wouldn’t be competing for a chip next year with CB. Sure, we’d have a nice regular season record, only to put ourselves further into drafting in the late 20s. To give us the most flexibility cap wise, this was a trade that had to be done but not necessarily liked. In two years if we’re discussing who we should pick in the lottery, then yes this trade was a failure. Until the summer of 2010 and the trade deadline that season passes, this trade can’t be given a grade that’s an end all evaluation.

I think Dumars deserves a little credit for respecting the fans enough to rebuild on the fly as opposed to tanking everything and praying for lottery success.

Miami went all the way to the bottom (and deliberately tanked a season). And they are still a year away from contention (getting Bosh to pair with Wade and Beasley).

Chicago made all sorts of blunders and then got lucky in the lottery. After that, they made a smart move to get John Salmons (MP, there’s an SF I’d take over Tay in a second). Now, they are a team on the rise (but still need some pieces to get out of the first round).

Even the Lakers had a season where they missed the playoffs and then another one where they were bounced in the first round by Phoenix.

Detroit will likely be better next year then they were this year. If falling to the 8th seed is as bad as it gets, I think that’s a rebuilding process that shows respect for its fans.

The Spurs had Bonner and Roger Mason in his starting lineup. Their first round draft picks over the past SEVEN years: Beno Udrih, Ian Mahinmi, Tiago Splitter, and George Hill.

RC BUFORD IS A MEDIOCRE GM

It’s an interesting exercise fantasizing what life would be like if Dumars had drafted Carmelo Anthony:

Would Dumars still have been able to get Sheed? Would that trade have fell in his lap or would teams not want to add another great player to the Pistons? If he had taken Bosh, would he have gone after Sheed? If not, would they have won ANY titles?

How would Carmelo and Larry Brown have gotten along? They didn’t exactly click in Athens.

Would Carmelo’s immaturity back then have affected the team negatively? Or would Ben’s “going to work” attitude and Larry Brown’s “play the right way” motto have sped up Carmelo’s maturation?

Shinons, don’t forget that Buford traded Luis Scola for Ian Mahimni. And that Udrih is in Sacramento instead of backing up Tony Parker.

Off-topic, and somebody may have already posted this, but there’s a semi-interesting takedown of AI on the Sports Illustrated website:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/chris_ballard/05/19/allen.iverson/index.html

This should probably go on the other post, about the Chauncey article, but since there is plenty of anti-Joe D. stuff here too…

http://www.pistonpowered.com/2009/05/hamilton-wanted-to-be-a-piston-even-without-billups/

You know, they gave Mark Warkentien GM of the year for the Billups trade. I dunno about that. It wasn’t something he had to work hard to make happen and was a no-brainer at that.

http://www.48minutesofhell.com/2009/05/15/offseason-breakdown-should-the-spurs-trade-manu-ginobili/

PistonsPowered links to this spurs blog post re: Manu trade possibilities. One of the options was Tay/Amir for Manu/Oberto.

The author notes that it’s unlikely and would leave us with two shooting guards again. But, Manu’s contract is expiring. I actually don’t think the Spurs would do this trade, but I’m bored and want another crazy idea to speculate about.

So, lets hear some opinions.

As someone who has been extremely critical of Dumars in recent weeks, I want to say that that PistonPowered post is reassuring. I kept thinking about why Dumars would have waited until the season began to deal Chauncey (rather than giving Iverson a whole offseason to click with the roster), and the only explanation that seemed to make sense was that he wanted to dupe Rip and get him to sign his deal first. It seemed like the most underhanded thing.

I still think that Dumars handled Chauncey very unprofessionally, leaving him to learn about the trade from a teammate and paying very weak tribute to him in that introductory press conference with Iverson, wherein Dumars also gave Iverson Chauncey’s number. But the fact that he gave Rip a chance to negate the contract counts for something.

Still, it makes me wonder why Dumars did wait, given that the Iverson trade was apparently on the table for months. Was it the dumb Tinsley bluff on the part of the Denver GM? If so, that’s incompetence on Dumars’s part, because who would seriously want Tinsley? That’s an obvious bluff. But I’ll take incompetence over malice.

MF MBISC, that was a fantastic and articulate post.

“I still think that Dumars handled Chauncey very unprofessionally, leaving him to learn about the trade from a teammate and paying very weak tribute to him in that introductory press conference with Iverson, wherein Dumars also gave Iverson Chauncey’s number.”

1) Giving Iverson Chauncey’s number was bullshit.

2) I’m really starting to doubt that Dumars avoided Chauncey and left it for someone else to tell him. Maybe, but it’s already apparent that at least one part of the Tom Friend article (Rip didn’t sign until after) was inaccurate. Given that inaccuracy and the fact that Dumars has always been considered a class act, I’m very skeptical that he would treat Chauncey that way.

I had not heard that Dumars had left Chauncey out of the loop until I read that article.

@ Skylar: Thanks.

@ Colin: No way I do that trade. Even with the space clear of Manu. We still don’t have a 3 in that case, let alone a backup. We’d be taking the ball out of Stuck/MFWB hands because the bulk of Manu’s production comes with him having the ball and creating his own shot or someone else’s.

Now, if Joe D. can spin Manu for another player from a team looking from cap space, I think it’s almost got to be done. And I think that’s the only way Spurs can sell the trading of Manu. Getting someone like Tay in exchange. Oberto – complimentary piece which puts a shitload of spotlight on the 5 (or 4 if he plays the 5).

And I saw above and elsewhere about Kwame testing the waters. If he tests them seriously, he drowns. Nobody is paying Kwame 4M this year. The only way he does is if he signs for 9M/2 yrs or some longer contract. And nobody is going to do that. I think this is his way of bluffing some trade rumors where he might be included and basically saying if he doesn’t like where he’s sent he’s opting out.

“. . . Kwame testing the waters. If he tests them seriously, he drowns.”

LOL.

so… if Kwame opts out and can’t get 4 million a year, can we resign him for less…? because that would be hilarious.

Kwame won’t get more than 4mil. But, if someone offered 6mil for 2years maybe he takes it.

That being said, I doubt he’s testing the waters but just wanted keep the option open just in case.

Re: Manu+Olberto/Tay+Amir – That just seems weird for both sides. For the Pistons, we really want to bring in another defensively deficient player at a position we’re set at just to have cap space for the next year? We want to do that again?

For the Spurs, they lose pretty much all their contracts but Parker and Duncan and can bring in a new franchise player to take the reins like Duncan did with Robinson – Bosh, Wade, Stoudemire, or even a vet like Dirk or Joe Johnson. And they take Tayshaun Prince? I love Tay, but like debate we had the other day, he’s not guy you want as your third wheel.

On the bright side, wouldn’t it be kind of morbidly entertaining to watch us completely destroy another top player’s value as they enter their contract year…?

This is just my speculation but I think the reason Joe D didn’t do the AI for Billups trade during the summer was that he held out hope he could swing a trade for a young stud like Melo. When it became apparent that wouldn’t happen, he opted for AI and cap space because he thought that was the next best option to re-build this team on the fly. Losing Billups was a big part of our decline this year, but it wasn’t the sole reason we lost 20 less games. We were no longer an elite team…IMO a healthy Orlando, Cleveland and Boston all beat us this year if we had CB.

This season was really tough to watch, but at least we should have a very intriguing summer with our 4 draft picks, cap space, and trade possibilities. A lot of teams bottom out for a couple years after a year or two at the elite level. We had a 6-7 year run at or near the top and we have the potential to reload after only one down year. Just because we have the potential, doesn’t mean it’s going to happen, but the fact that we have the flexibility to do it is pretty impressive.

I remember the first bad boys in the early 90’s ,thinking they were going to win a third title,only to watch them slowly get worst yr. after yr.win less and less until they hit rock bottom with a 22 win season. They waited too long too break up their core and got little for them when they did, flash forward to today and we almost did the same thing again.making the ec finals was nice but thats not why were here and was doubtful for us even before the trade.were gonna get Sheed’s cap space but what if we had traded him 3 yrs ago what would he have gotten us then hard to say but he had alot more value then, then just the cap space now .Joe could have sat on his roster watch it grow older and have less value but he’s already been down that rd.Instead he took a gamble and rolled the dice for cap space ,and your right Sauce cap space doesn’t win games but neither do aging rosters ,I’ll take the cap space and hope Joe uses it wisely over the alternative of watching a repeat of the 90’s.

Man, I’m so hoping for a Denver/Orlando final. Stern would slit his wrists.

God, you people were so optimistic for Iverson, too, right after the trade. I can’t take you seriously anymore. It’s like reading Blogabull.

Joe Dumars is clearly the least sacred cow in the organization.

God, you people were so optimistic for Iverson, too, right after the trade. I can’t take you seriously anymore. It’s like reading Blogabull.

Joe Dumars is clearly the least sacred cow in the organization.

Chale, that was Iverson. One cow who’s out to pasture for sure.

Can we please stop bitching about the trade?

If we don’t make the trade, we’re in a very similar situation but without financial flexibility to make changes.

Dice expires + Sheed expires = gaping hole in the frontcourt.

Except that we would have CB locked up for several million for several years with a shrinking cap.

In other words, CB + Rip + Tay + X + Y is not going to be any more of a contender than Stuck + Rip + Tay + X + Y. Maybe the former wins 5 more regular season games than the latter. Who gives a shit? Not Pistons fans. We want to compete for it all — a mindset we’ve developed because Joe D has consistently built teams that are competitive enough to do that.

This trade is the beginning of a rebuilding process. It won’t be finished next year. And it won’t be finished the year after that.

But trade or no trade, we aren’t contenders next season. It takes a pretty thick-headed person to deny that.

Sauce: I think anyone who’s a piston fan had to be at a minimum of glass half full theory following the trade. At the time, how can anyone take a look at a probable first ballot HOF, with some skills left for what this team needed: A player to take over in the 4th and get calls not be at least mildly excited?

Had we all known in advance the true nature of his fucktardness, we’d all be singing a different tune. And I don’t think it took too long for most folks to come around that AI wasn’t.

So now we have, in your words, “most expendable” to carve out a chunk of cap space.

God, you people were so optimistic for Iverson, too, right after the trade. I can’t take you seriously anymore. It’s like reading Blogabull.

Yeah, stupid fans with their stupid optimism. You’d almost think that we wanted the team to succeed or something.

Just remember. Teams have a habit of actually improving after Mr. I departs. Be it Philly, Denver, the Olympic team, and hopefully Detroit.

Optimisim ;~)

Go Orlando! Go Nuggets!

A picture that’s worth 1000 words: why the ’stons sucked this season:

http://www.nba.com/media/pistons/iverson_curry_300_090430.jpg