Boston lowballs, Detroit laughs

I’m thinking that based on the Garnett trade, Ainge has instructed his staff to follow a mantra that pulling off ridiculously one-sided trades in the Celtics’ favor is an industry standard.

The Boston lineup would be awesome.

Thanks for the heads up, LawyerBoy. So, you pumped about your team picking up Griffin?

The more I think about it, this would fit with Dumars’ recent trend of giving a guard an extension then immediately trading him. It’s probably not as lopsided as I made it sound — Allen is terribly inconsistent, but he did have a 51-point game in the playoffs, during which Rondo nearly averaged a triple-double — but still, I don’t think it’s even close. I know Tay’s value has plummeted, but if this is the type of deal Dumars is hearing for him, I say don’t do anything at all.

it sounds like a trade that one of us would come up with. not one that would be applicable in any realm of nba reality.

liking the current draftexpress mock:

1st, 15: earl clark
2nd, 35: taj gibson
2nd, 39: jon brockman*
2nd, 44: danny green

*at 39, toney douglas was still on the mock board, who is someone dumars is reportedly interested in. put douglas in for brockman and that would be a nice draft.

Why would the Celtics even be thinking about trading Rondo? That’s kind of crazy if you as me. Rondo would be a great fit for Detroit…if there were any Detroit players left after a trade.

If that’s a starting point, don’t you have to listen? I mean if Rondo’s available and you can do it without giving up all 3 of those guys, isn’t that something you should explore? I think we learned this year that top-tier PGs don’t grow on trees. Does anybody else think that right now today, Rondo has a better chance at becoming an elite PG than Stuckey? I love Stuckey, but the growth that Rondo has shown is scary if you’re not a Celtics fan.

Of course, this is the type of trade that if it were proposed to me in a fantasy league, I would respond with a counter proposal like “Herrmann, Rasheed, and Sharpe for Pierce and Rondo”, so it’s not like I blame Dumars for not responding.

Now that I stopped laughing, I would like to see how Rondo plays without the big 3. It’s easier to be an “elite” PG when you’ve got alot of pieces and (probably) 3 future HOF around you.

At the end of the day, Rondo’s outside shot is just as suspect (and I believe more) than Stuck’s. I wouldn’t take that deal even if it involved a straight up 2 for any of the Det 2. And I don’t think Rondo is so of an elite PG you can build a team around, ala, CP3, D-Will or Rose.

I think Ainge thought McHale was the new Pistons GM.

And how pissed is Ray Allen going to be? And to a large extent Rondo? They’be been linked to several trades and if Ray’s contract comes off, why not take it yourself, Celtics? Welcome to the wonderful world of luxury tax.

Somehow, I have a feeling this was all started by a Tweet.

No thanks, I don’t think that’s enough value for our top 3 guys. I would think a package of Stuckey + Prince or Rip as a base package would give us a chance of acquiring a Bosh or Amare type player. Plus, I really want to see what Stuckey does this year. Rondo improved a lot in his 3rd season and I think Stuckey has a chance to take a big jump this year as well.

CeltixLowR-LVLexec: Rip Tay & Stuck 4 Ray & Rondo?
PistonsOfficial: OMG! RU SERIOUZZZ!!! NOT! LOLZ!!!11

Kelly Dwyer’s take on the proposed trade:
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/The-Pistons-turn-a-big-one-down?urn=nba,172130

Dwyer is probably my favorite NBA writer. Basically, he says that the Pistons should have taken this trade, to get a young star (Rondo) and tons of cap space (Allen), since the Pistons are in rebuilding mode. Hamilton and Prince are starting the downside of their careers and are overpaid. Stuckey probably won’t be a star.

This was somewhat my reaction as well. I hated the Hamilton extension after the Billups trade. Rondo is a great PG right now (though being guarded by Derrick Rose made him look better than he is in the Chicago-Boston series). Stuckey might become a great PG. Tay and Rip only have trade value to teams that want to compete now. If Boston threw in a draft pick or two to sweeten the deal, then Dumars should have taken this.

Dwyer doesn’t give much credit to the Pistons, Larry Brown or Joe Dumars for the 2004 Championship…

It paid off in 2004, as the Pistons won a championship, but how many things had to go right? Ainge helped, needlessly taking on extra salary in February of 2004 to allow a trade that sent Rasheed Wallace from the Atlanta Hawks to the Pistons to go through. The Pistons then had to work through an injury-riddled Pacers and Lakers team (who downed an injury-riddled Timberwolves team, and a shell-shocked, and arguably better, San Antonio Spurs team) to win the championship.

Who knew the league was so hobbled that post-season?

I was pretty shocked to hear about this proposed trade, and I was even more shocked to hear that Joe laughed it off.

Whether or not Rondo greatly improves his offensive game is kinda beside the point, he’s already the BEST defensive PG in the entire NBA (and it’s not even close). His overall offensive game is above average even without a jumper, add that to his elite defense and he’s the type of guy that NEVER gets traded: a young star player, who hasn’t come close to his prime years yet.

I think Kelly Dwyer hits it right on the head with his analysis. Whether he likes it or not, Joe forced the team into a rebuilding phase, now he’s been handed an avenue to completely re-make the team and he turns it down? Does anyone seriously believe we’re going to be back in contention while Rip (or Tay) is still at the back end of his prime?

bostons draft proposal is crop of bull shit!!!! it’s really not about ray allen, it’s about rondo!!! rondo doesn’t listen to the coach when he call plays so he want him out the celtics. in other words let rondo’s hardheaded ass be somebody elses problem, pistons already have their own problems(curryman)!!!!!!

I echoed Gabe’s sentiment that I’d be happy with the trade. Ray is the consummate pro and I respect his J, AND he comes off the books. But for Boston wouldnt Prince have to play behind Pierce then in that scenario? And Rondo is absolutely a perfect fit for their system much more than Stuckey. Doesnt really make sense for them.

You take this deal and you are basically building this team around Rondo. He’s good, but he’s not the type of guy both on and off the court that you want to hand the keys to the franchise too. We can get a far better deal, and some bigs for Rip and Prince.

Rondo is already a top-5 point guard. Today. Gabe hit it right on the head— as it stands, even without a money jump shot, he’s an elite slasher, finishes with contact (and in circus-style occasionally), fast as FUCK, fabulous passer, the best rebounding guard in the league, and far and away the best defensive PG in the league.

Neither he nor Stuck have a jumpshot, but Rondo does EVERYTHING else better. Literally every single thing in basketball. I would do this trade in a heartbeat.

I was just thinking of posting an idea where we don’t give up both veterans in the trade… but then I realized that I WANT to give up both veterans in the trade. Why not just do it? We’ll have so much money to play with this and next offseason it’s ridiculous. And no matter if you’re a fan of Rondo or not, you have to admit, like Artest at the SF position, there is no PG in the league that more embodies “Dee-Troit Basketball” than Rondo.

“He’s good, but he’s not the type of guy both on and off the court that you want to hand the keys to the franchise too. We can get a far better deal, and some bigs for Rip and Prince.”

Did you even watch the playoffs? With KG out, Rondo without a doubt asserted himself the leader of a really good Boston team full of veterans that was making a championship run. He made every clutch play when it counted and even did the necessary dirty work (um, punching Brad Miller in the face and then ADMITTING it?— BAD. ASS.). He is WITHOUT A DOUBT the type of guy you want to give the keys to. He’s Jason Kidd with Lebron’s athleticism, Jordan’s defense, and a 6’10" wingspan. All he has to do is keep working on his jumper and he’s got a HOF career ahead of him. And he’s fucking 23 years old.

And no, we aren’t even going to SNIFF a deal for Rip or Tay that anyone would call “good,” because they’re both overpaid and on the downside of their respective careers.

We need to do this deal. Tweak it a little bit— sure, draft picks, whatever— but get it done.

???

bostons draft proposal is crop of bull shit!!!! it’s really not about ray allen, it’s about rondo!!! rondo doesn’t listen to the coach when he call plays so he want him out the celtics. in other words let rondo’s hardheaded ass be somebody elses problem, pistons already have their own problems(curryman)!!!!!!

???

(BTW, even Celtics fans will admit that Doc Rivers is mentally retarded, so I don’t blame Rondo for calling his own plays, if that’s the case…)

I don’t know if Rondo is a top-5 PG, but he’s close. With this trade, the Pistons would have a huge hole at SF, which would almost necessitate taking Earl Clark with the #15 draft pick. Clark could be good, but he also has high bust potential.

Yeah, Joel, I also looked at CelticsBlog to see their commenters’ take on the possible trade. There is a pretty good mix of opinions there, for what it’s worth.

I’m not even going to touch this one. All I’ll say is I would be really pissed if we gave away our entire core from 2004 without getting a single player in return.

Rondo isn’t a guy you’re going to build a team around. In three years he’s, at best, marginally improved his jump shot. WTF has he been doing the last 3 summers?

Top 5?

CP3
T. Parker
Kidd (take off perhaps due to age)
Rose
D-will
B-Diddy (perhaps)
Jameer Nelson

What 3 guys are coming off this list to get Rondo to #5?

hahahahah

Ainge will surely be shot dead in the streets, I would do it myself, if he pulls this trade.

420celticsFAN

You can’t make this stuff up, people.

“What 3 guys are coming off this list to get Rondo to #5?”

Jameer Nelson, B-Diddy, and Kidd easily. I’d probably put him above Rose too at this point, clearly evidenced by that playoff series.

Joel, I always thought hippies were pacifists.

Yeah, there does seem to be a philosophical disconnect going on there.

I’m sure the deal will still be there like, I don’t know, two games into next season.

I’m sort of shocked that Boston proposed the trade.

They won the championship last year. Fell short this year because of injuries. So, with a healthy roster this year, you would think they have all the pieces for another championship run.

But instead they are looking to gut the core that got them the championship rings? Are they going to make Eddie House the starting point guard?

It’s just weird.

kidd easily based on age.

Nelson = push I think. I think it depends on what a team needs. Rondo in Orl is going to be harder because of Nelson’s outside shot ability.

B-diddy = Agree.

Any other PGs I left off? I think a case can be made for Westbrook given he’s a 2nd yr player and Rondo is now a 4th vs. where they were in their 2nd year.

Um, Chauncey?

@ Birdman: MBinSoCal IAFI. Thanks for the catch. Doh!!

MarkButter:

Here’s the top 20 PG PER’s from this past season:
http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics?sort=per&pos=pg&seasonType=2&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fnba%2fhollinger%2fstatistics%3fsort%3dper%26pos%3dpg%26seasonType%3d2

PER is (IMO) probably the best overall offensive metric. Rondo had the 9th highest PER for a PG in the NBA. So combine a top-10 offensive game, with him being the BEST defensive PG in the league and I think calling Rondo a “top 5” PG is pretty accurate. Chris Paul and Deron Williams are probably the only two PG’s who are, as it stands right now, definitely better.

Westbrook hasn’t done shit. And OKC isn’t even sure that he’s their future starting PG, so I wouldn’t put him anywhere near the top-anything PG list.

Clearly we forgot about Chauncey. That’s about it. Other than Chauncey, D-Will, CP-3, and Parker, can you honestly say you’d take anyone left over Rondo? You’re crazy if you do. I might even take him over Chauncey right now (age). To me, the top 5 list is as follows (and probably will be for a few years, because these guys are all young as hell):

1. Parker (does it all AND has what matters— the rings)
2. D-Will (owns Chris Paul; also owns Billups; perfect mixture of both)
3. CP3 (owns everyone in the league except D-Will and Billups)
4. Rondo (best rebounding guard in the league, top-5 passer, athletic freak; has a ring)
5. Rose (eventually will be #1, but not yet)

I also think Ainge is going to have a problem on his hands when camp starts. A rumor once is chance. Two is coincidence. Three means something’s up. I think Ray Allen can accept that being a veteran and realizes the money situation. His goal is not to get traded to the T-Wolves of the world. If Rondo had a problem before, running plays not called or butting heads, think he’s going to be on his best behavior when he’s linked almost weekly to a trade? One of the things that kept Starbury in line was the lockerroom “harmony.” Rumors like this will last until the trade deadline.

Joel, you think Rose will be better than Paul. I think Rose will be good and all, but Chris Paul has been an MVP candidate for the past two years. Look at the PER gap between Paul (30.04) and second place Tony Parker (23.47). There are only five PGs with PERs above 20.

1. Paul
2. Williams
3. Parker
4. Rondo
5. Billups

As a note, that’s who I think is the best PG right now, not the ones with the best PERs.

Rajon Rondo is the Ben Wallace of point guards. He’s not going to give you hardly anything scoring (he struggled to average 10 points per game the last two seasons and there’s no indication that he’s ever going to give you more than that without becoming a 40 percent from the field guy) and he has got to be one of the worst free throw shooting point guards of all time. If he’s your point guard, you’ve got to have a damn good offense around him. We wouldn’t.

But I’m really trying to stay out of this one because no one is going to change anyone else’s mind…

Detroit should do this deal just to torture me by forcing me to root for players that I’ve disliked immensely.

If Dumars did pull the trigger on this deal, he’d be banking on signing an all star FA this summer and next. If he signed Boozer this summer, and then could entice a top level FA next year, Detroit would be back in the hunt.

Dumars could also spin Ray Allen’s $20M expiring contract into one or two very good players. Detroit would be getting a great young PG who should be one of the 5 best PGs in the league for the foreseeable future

From Boston’s side, this deal tightens up their roster big time, with Stuckey, Rip, Prince, Pierce, and KG all able to play multiple positions. They slide Rip into Ray Allen’s role (a wash), and use Prince in the Posey role (an upgrade). I’m not completely sold on Stuckey as a PG, but he can certainly play the role Rondo did on the championship team. Now Danny Ainge could sign Dice or ’Sheed and the Cs would be all set. lol

MBinSCIAFI !!

I think there’s a dearth of good PGs in the league right now. I gotta believe (just based on odds) that of all the PGs in this draft at least 2 end up better than Rondo.

As for Westbrook, I’m just going by a second year comparison. It’s going to be hard doing shit on OKC, even if your name is Rondo. But I think he’s a better defender than Rondo, is more athletic (albeit just a bit) and is pysically stronger. Plus, Rondo can afford to gamble a bit with KG/Perk there to cover his back.

I think it’s also a matter of pieces around you that has helped Rondo. As for PER, Stuck’s first year is going to be skewed based on minutes and who was on the court with him, to some extent last year and MCIAFI. Sheed/Tay/Rip vs. KG/PP/Allen. I don’t think there’s much of a choice who we’d pick to be on the floor with and under which scenario each PG is going to have the best chance to be a top 5 PG based on the last 3 years of developemtnt (2 for Stuck & extrapolated).

“But I’m really trying to stay out of this one because no one is going to change anyone else’s mind…”

True. I’m absolutely in LOVE with Rondo’s game. I think his offensive game is improving (WATCH THE PLAYOFFS). He’s starting to hit the jumper, and occasionally he drops a 3. Everything else— EVERYTHING ELSE— is lights out. Off the charts.

And despite the ridiculous individual numbers CP-3 puts up, he consistently gets punked by D-Will and Chauncey, and really only plays Parker to a draw. Plus, D-Will, Parker, and Chauncey have all taken their teams farther into the playoffs (the latter two having the most important trophy of all— Finals MVP). It’s like the Kobe vs. Lebron debate— no matter what regular season shit Lebron pulls off, until he does it when it counts, he’ll never be as good as Kobe (or Jordan, Magic, Bird, Duncan, anybody else with a ring as their team’s top guy). That’s why I can’t ever put CP3 above those guys.

And yes, I think without a doubt Rose will be better than Paul. He’s bigger, just as fast, more athletic, is already starting to develop deep range, is one of the best in the league already at finishing in the lane, has elite court vision, great passing skills, rebounds very well for a guard… and this was as a rookie. He’s basically the “Lebron” of PG’s— he’s the best and brightest of this evolutionarily new breed of athlete (LeBron, Carmello, Dwight, too fast/too strong/not natural according to God’s Law) and he happens to be a PG. His ceiling literally does not exist.

MF Will Bynum FTW

You might be able to get Ray Allen for the mid level exception in 1 year. That means you are giving the Celtics Rip+Tay+Stuckey for the difference between Stuckey and Rondo in talent plus cap room. THAT is why it’s a crazy trade. If you like Allen, just wait. And the Celtics management doesn’t get to decide for Detroit what is and isn’t a rebuilding year.

But Rip+Kwame+Amir for Ray Allen would work for me…

Rondo’s value is the higest it will ever be. Dont be fooled by his insane playoff runm, the guy will be a 10 5 and 5 guys is whole career.

I still think that (if they were drafted the same year) we’d be switching names if Rondo played with Sheed/Tay/Rip and Stuck played with KG/PP/Allen.

rban – Agreed. I don’t know what rondo’s FT% is. But hell, I was shooting 70% in jr high.

Finally, at the end of a game I’ll take Stuck or MFWB to get to the hole and MAKE the shot before Rondo or in the event that it’s a game on the line at the line.

@MBinSC – This has his FT%, including his college numbers. Baaaaad…:
http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Rajon-Rondo-216/stats/

if rondo is so fantastic, why does every trade rumor out of boston have them positioning to deal his ass? sounds like a malcontent d-bag.

I did a player comparison for the rookie years of Chris Paul and Derrick Rose. Both were 20.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=paulch01&y1=2006&p2=rosede01&y2=2009

     G MP PER TS% ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG%
Paul 78 2808 22.1 .546 2.5 14.8 8.5 38.2 3.4 0.2 13.7 22.2
Rose 81 3000 16.0 .516 3.7 8.4 6.1 28.8 1.1 0.4 13.3 22.6

There is very little here to suggest that Rose will be better than Paul.

Rose… “is already starting to develop deep range” by taking 72 3-pointers and making 22.2% of them? Paul took 177 and made 28.2%.

Rose… “is one of the best in the league already at finishing in the lane.” True. His 2P% is better than Paul’s at the same age, which is a likely indicator of this. However, to truly take advantage of this Rose needs to get to the line and make free throws. He took half as many free throws (per 36) as Paul, making 78.8% compared to Paul’s 84.7%.

Rose… “has elite court vision, great passing skills” but fewer assists than Paul and a lower assist to turnover ratio.

Rose… “rebounds very well for a guard,” but not as good as Paul did as a rookie. Rose has an edge over Paul on the offensive glass, but Paul’s defensive rebounding rate is much better.

Rose does foul at a lower rate than Paul did, for what it’s worth.

A couple people on here are extremely overrating Rondo. He is not the best rebounding PG in the game. That would go to Paul or Kidd. He is definitely top 5 in rebounding and passing attributes, but he struggles with his shot. He has to start scoring at least 16-17 points a night before we can begin to talk about him the way some people are. For example, he has an unlimited ceiling? What? He can’t shoot the ball. Best case scenario, he is Jason Kidd with speed. Even that is stretching it too far b/c Kidd starting scoring 15 points a game as soon as he entered the league. You don’t build around a guy who will be a fringe top 5 PG his whole career. He’s not going to pass Paul, Williams, Parker or Rose unless those guys get injured or fall out of their prime.

If they want to cut back on their asking price, then we can listen. Take 2 of Rip, Prince and Stuckey for Allen and Rondo and then we are talking a deal that makes sense from our perspective. Right now, we are giving up way too much for a guy who is not a star player in this league.

Expanding on my “MF Will Bynum FTW” above, I don’t understand why we would make that deal. Yes, Rondo is an improvement over Stuckey and MFWB— but enough of an improvement to warrant tossing our entire existing core aside?

I’m with Joel in that I think the sky could be the limit for Rondo. And with our cap space, we could have a core with Rondo, Joe Johnson (just as an example, not saying I suggest that) and Carlos Boozer going into 2010-11 season. However…

At present, Rondo doesn’t provide enough of an upgrade over Stuckey and MFWB. Between Rondo and MFWB, Bynum draws more fouls, converts MUCH better from the stripe, is a comparable distributor, stealer, defender, etc. Bynum is turnover prone (but improving) and has a higher foul rate, but neither are etched in stone for the rest of his career. Any knocks on MFWB’s size are kind of moot, as Rondo is only an inch taller, but nowhere near as strong, big and not quite as fast.

So to the MarkButters above, who have said things like “I think it’s also a matter of pieces around you that has helped Rondo.” in this thread. I think you’re right, you have to take that into account. Example:

Imagine if MFWB had shooters like Allen, bigs like Garnett and slashers like Pierce to distribute to. Would his distribution stats be too different from Rondo?

Now I know I’m a bit biased to MFWB, I called that MFer out in November as my favorite Piston this season, and goddammit he didn’t dissappoint. He won’t ever be an all star, Rondo will, but in terms of production, we’ve got a poor man’s Rondo on our roster right now and don’t have to give up 3 of our best players to get him.

Having a bunch of money next summer puts us up against ~15 teams whereas there’s only a few now.

@ Shinons: Thanks. 60% Are you shitting me ? (in his best Dennis Miller voice)

check that. I was shooting 60% from the line in elementary school.

I co-sign with MBinSoCal…

Also, I need to start making a list of all the people who are going to look dumb when Stuck blows up.

Richard Jefferson just got traded to the Spurs for Bruce Bowen, Fabricio Oberto and Kurt Thomas.

I would be interested to see how many of Rondo’s assists are jumpshots and how many are dunks. It’s one thing to stand still at the top, wait for Ray Allen to come off a screen and watch him hit a jumper and it’s another thing to break down the defense and get someone a wide open dunk.

Wow, Sheed to replace Fabricio Oberto?

I feel like Birdman was the only one in the thread to point out that if we make this deal our starting SF as of today is Walter Sharpe. And Rondo’s contract (approximately $2.6 million) expires when Ray Allen’s does. Is Rondo really going to be the type of player who it’s going to be reasonable to negotiate with next summer for a good price?

Kudos to R.C. Buford. He good.

If Manu is healthy next year for the playoffs the Spurs are right back in the mix with LA.

Lol @ Boston

That was a good laugh.

The only player that I want from Boston that is available is Leon Powe. If we were to acquire Rondo/Ray/Powe for Rip/Tay/Stuck, I wouldn’t lose sleep over it.

Especially considering you CAN potentially flip Ray for 2 players (Orlando?) a big and a wing.

Detroit’s lineup could potentially be:

Rondo/Bynum/Douglas
Ray/Afflalo
Hedo/Terrence Williams
Powe/Maxiell
hole to fill/Kwame or hole to fill

That gets you 14ppg/9ast from Rondo. 18ppg from Ray. 18ppg from Hedo. Double/Double from Powe… potentially 60+ points from 4 guys in your starting 5, then you focus on getting a big with your money (Lee? Millsap? Okur? no.. a REAL big).

With this lineup we’d be able to spread the floor for the penetrators (Rondo and Bynum) and open up the post for guys like Powe and Maxey… We’re still thin up front but, I think Tayshaun has worn out his welcome among the Detroit faithful…

Damn, that’s an awesome trade for San Antonio.

LawyerBoy,

You know all 3 of those guys can likely be bought out on the cheap, and will likely be back in San Antonio sometime during the season… especially Kurt Thomas and Bowen.

Goddamn that’s an awesome trade for the spurs. I really fucking hate RJ too.

Bowen’s contract isn’t guaranteed so he’ll be released… Oberto will likely take $5 to be bought out and return and Kurt Thomas may have to wait until the trade deadline to be released.

Off topic:

The Bobcats refused to make Sean May a qualifying offer, thus making him an unrestricted FA as of today. Would anybody else mind throwing him maybe a Kwame-esque “1 year with player option for second” deal, something like $1.5mil/yr? He’s basically been thrown to the scrap heap, so he can’t be expecting much money. Pretty sure he understands that he’s playing cheap this year and next to try to make some real $$$ for himself in the future.

He hasn’t played really at all in three years, and just finally now is 100% healthy and back into shape (reportedly around the 260lb range). He looked like the next Corliss when he came out at #13. I think it is an almost no-risk proposition, where you might even end up with a versatile big coming off the bench (I always remember him passing extremely well) for super cheap. At worst, he’s a competent big body for very cheap coming off the bench.

Thoughts?

@Colin

Me too. I think it’s the fact that he has his own initials tattooed on his arm, like he’s going to forget them or something. What a doucher.

Sick deal for San Antonio. Sign Rasheed to the mid-level, and get everybody healthy, and they have as good a shot as anyone of winning the crown, again.

The bigger question for NJ is who are they targeting in the draft now and how much will they save cap space by buying out these guys.

Fuckin’ Buford. But what does SA do for length? Fabrico and K. Thomas. That pretty much leaves TD & Bonner.

@Joel: I’ve never met anyone who liked him. I guess you’d have to if you were a Nets/Bucks fan.

As for Mr. May, I don’t see the point. I’d rather just play Amir and see if he can increase his value a little. I think we’ll need that 1.5 million.

MotherFuckin’ Will Bynum.

@ Joel

Screw Sean May and his overeating ways

Why you hatin’, Boney? You seen the recent pictures of Sean May?

He looks MUCH BETTER.

Remember when Popovich was bitching about the Gasol trade, saying the league should void trades that make no sense for one of the parties? I guess he realized it was better to get involved in one of these fire sales than to whine about them. Jefferson for three role players who will come right back to SA when they get bought out… That’s what you call a straight salary dump.

Why the hell would Detroit even consider deal? Seriously, Ray and Rip are pretty close to a wash talent-wise, and while Rondo is better than Stuckey, he’s not that much better to justify throwing in Prince, who is still a quality player.

I can’t believe any self-respecting Piston fan would support such a lopsided deal.

Correction: Milw not NJ.

The NBA: Where cost cutting / salary dump happens.

So now in subsequent years Richard Jefferson has been traded for:
Yi Jianlian and Bobby Simmons
and
Bruce Bowens, Fabricio Oberto, and Kurt Thomas

He should just refer to himself as The Human Salary Dump.

I think san ant just got a lot better

I don’t understand the love affair with Rondo either. I DID watch some of the playoffs, but the Chicago Bulls could have made a lot of guys look better than they are.

We’d be giving up three valuable STARTING members of the team, for two guys who are about to be free agents.

Maybe most importantly (it’s been mentioned): if this trade happens, who the HECK is our starting SF? Not to mention our backup SF.

Is Allen a significant improvement over Rip? I don’t think so.

Rondo is better than Stuckey NOW, but have we seen the best of Rodney Stuckey? I’d bet the farm we haven’t.

Yes, this deal is as crazy as it sounds, and it surprises me that so many solid, regular DBB contributors are ready to just “start over” and basically give away our leading scorer for the decade (RIP), and our developing PG for the near future (Stuckey).

Tearing the house down is a drastic measure to take when all it may need is some repairs.

TJ,

Get a hold of yourself. It’s a lopsided deal, really? Free money to throw around at free agents who have proven their worth… really?

c’mon man… Tayshaun has had so many forks stuck in him the past few years it’s ridiculous… the only person in the deal that I don’t want to include is Stuckey but, the deal opens up salary for us and gives us flexibility to use a big trade asset at the deadline.

I don’t see how it’s so freaking lopsided that it’s not even worth considering at this point. This team is in no position to compete this coming season so, why not build around a point guard who plays solid D and can finish at the rim? the team has an aging backcourt and zero frontcourt… why not get younger with a REAL centerpiece and start from scratch?

At worst we’re a 30 win team with 0 depth and 2 guards of note going into next offseason… at best we’re a 45 win team who is at or near this year’s Miami Heat level…

The team, as currently constructed, has 0 3 point threats. With a “point guard” who prefers to penetrate (Bynum and Stuckey) it’s hard to run your offense…

For the umpteenth time, I don’t want to screw around with our backcourt. Our backcourt is fine — it may not be the best in the NBA, but it’s a legit backcourt for an elite team. WE NEED BIGS! And note the plural. And because we need more than one, we need to start working on that project sooner rather than later.

My thoughts:

SA did not improve and possibly got worse. They now have Tim Duncan and Matt Bonnor as their bigs. Awesome. Perhaps they’re baking on one of the three getting bought out and resigning? RJ has been overrated for a few years now, and by that, I mean all he does is score.

About the Boston rumor: It was a lowball, but it wasn’t that big of a lowball. In my estimation, if Rondo continues to produce comparably to what he did last season, then we’re talking about a lock as an All Star and potential All-NBA player. If Boston is shopping him, we should go after him. He’s going to be a great player, and we have the money to extend his deal — which is the cheapest way to acquire talent, btw.

If I were Joe D, I would have countered this: Rip + Stuckey for Rondo + 1st round pick.

But only IF a couple others things are probable.

1) If Joe D thinks we can sign Ben Gordon without overpaying (9 mil for 3 years?).

2) If Joe D doesn’t forget that the more pressing need is big men. We’ve been around that mountain time and again.

But, if we could get Rondo and sign Gordon, suddenly we’re back in business, in my estimation:

Rondo/ MFWB
Gordon/ AA
Tay/ Mystery man
Boozer? Milsap? / Max
Gortat? / Kwame

I’d take that, and I’d even take trading Tay, Amir, and Kwame during the regular season, as fire sales are bound to happen.

Now, I know I’ve been down on Gordon

Regardless of the merits of the deal, I think this shows that Dumars has a legit plan that he’s not deviating from unless he’s blown over. That makes me feel a little better. Now I just hope it’s not a retarded plan…

And I’m doing my best to keep my mouth shut about the pros and cons of the trade (because I think it’s pointless) and maybe I’m alone on this, but I’m not convinced at all that Rondo is better than Stuckey. I think it’s realistic that Stuckey puts up better numbers and outperforms Rondo this season.

TJ,

For the umpteenth time, I don’t want to screw around with our backcourt. Our backcourt is fine — it may not be the best in the NBA, but it’s a legit backcourt for an elite team. WE NEED BIGS! And note the plural. And because we need more than one, we need to start working on that project sooner rather than later.

I’ve been with you on this for a while now, and I still think you’re right.

However, if Rondo is available, I think we should go get him. He’s a definite upgrade over Stuckey, in my estimation, and acquiring him doesn’t hurt our chances of getting quality bigS.

In fact, it might help to attract FA’s if they know they’re going to play in an offense with a ‘pure’ PG.

@brgulker

Rondo and Gordon actually complement eachother perfectly. Perfectly. The height thing is still a worry, but didn’t the original Bad Boys field a backcourt with a 6’0" PG and a 6’4" SG? Rondo and Gordon aren’t that far off.

Considering the only thing deep about this draft is the number of intriguing PG prospects, I don’t see why Detroit would even consider this trade before the draft. I’d rather roll with a cheap trio of Stuckey, MFWB and one of [Jrue Holiday, Eric Maynor, Brandon Jennings, Ty Lawson, Darren Collison] for a few years and hope one of them emerges as an All-Star than gut the team for Rondo. (Especially when you consider Rondo’s “bargain” days are almost over since he’ll be looking for a contract next summer.) If you gut the team, it better be for a big man.

“maybe I’m alone on this, but I’m not convinced at all that Rondo is better than Stuckey. I think it’s realistic that Stuckey puts up better numbers and outperforms Rondo this season.”

you are not alone.

@brgulker

Rondo and Gordon actually complement eachother perfectly. Perfectly. The height thing is still a worry, but didn’t the original Bad Boys field a backcourt with a 6′0″ PG and a 6′4″ SG? Rondo and Gordon aren’t that far off.

That does make sense to me, although I’m still not sold on Gordon completely.

The only reason I would want him:

1) We turn Rip into a big man
2) We trade Rip + Stuckey for Rondo

To me, Rondo is incredibly undervalued and is a sensational player allaround.

I hear Matt’s point — gut the team for a big man only — but it seems more likely than not that we’re going to get at least 1 quality big this summer via FA.

@Brgulker:

I don’t think that Stuck+Rip for Rondo and 1st round pick works because Boston is over the cap. Plus, Boston clearly wants to get rid of Allen.

Anwho, I don’t think the trade is ridiculous, but it seems a little early to engage in this kind of thing. MW’s point about the draft is well taken.

Does everyone here agree that Rip’s extension was “awful” or “terrible”. Dwyer states it as fact that Rip and Tay are way overpaid. Perhaps, but at least in Rip’s case, I think he makes about what he deserves, maybe a little more. I generally like Ball Don’t Lie, but that got under my skin a little.

If you do this deal, you’ve essentially traded Chauncey Billups, Richard Hamilton, Tayshaun Prince, Rasheed Wallace and Rodney Stuckey for Rajon Rondo, as he would be the only player from the 2008 roster.

Secondly, big name free agents don’t move as often as people believe. The last three big names to move in free agency were Grant Hill, Shaquille O’Neal, and Tracy McGrady. Of the dozens of big name free agents the past 10+ years, a vast majority of them stayed in the same place.

Not to mention, a decent chunk of that capspace will have to go towards a Rondo extension, and who knows how much he’ll want and what if some team offers him something ridiculous like $11 million a year? I’d be ok with Rondo at $7-8 million but I don’t think we should match anything in the 8 figure range until we know for sure that he’s not just a product of playing with HoFers.

Finally, Detroit is not a premiere free agency destination. How many times have we watched high quality players (Allan Houston, Grant Hill, Ben Wallace) bolt for green pastures until we realize that our greatest strength is acquiring players through trade and drafting. Look at the starting lineup that won the NBA title. 4 of the 5 players were acquired via trade or drafting, and the only signing was not a big name free agent, either. Capspace is reaching ridiculous levels of overrated, that we’d give away talent for money, which is counterproductive. I can’t think of many teams that’s gotten better by simply dumping salary.

One thing to consider is that Stuckey and Rondo had very stats after their second year (Stuckey played 32 mpg, while Rondo played 30 mpg):

Rondo – 51.5 TS%/10.6 ppg/5.1 apg/4.2 rpg/1.7 spg/1.9 TO
Stuckey – 50.4 TS%/13.4 ppg/4.9 apg/3.5 rpg/1.0 spg/2.2 TO

Rondo had a little higher PER (15.74 to 14.84) and is a better defender of pg’s. However, Stuckey can match up with 1’s and 2’s, so he allows us to be more flexible with line-ups and potential draft picks and free agent pick-ups. Like I said earlier, I really want to see what Stuckey will do this year in a less chaotic environment and with a year of starting under his belt.

@Colin – Yeah, I usually like Dwyer, but wow…I’m not sure how a guy who’s been in three of the past four All Star games is an “above average offensive shooting guard” or how a 29 year old is “on the decline.” And no, I don’t think either one of them are overpaid.

Like many others said above, I’m not ready to give up on Stuckey, even for Rondo in a less lopsided trade.

December and January of this last season was NOT a fluke. 16p/6a/4r/2s, 53% from the field and 40% from three is unreal. He hit a wall in February but his numbers came back up above his season average for March and April, albeit with a poor shooting %.

I’m confident that if you took away the roster mismanagement of MCIAFI, the chemistry clusterfuck of AI, Sheed, etc, then the explosion of MFWB, Stuckey may have continued with those Dec/Jan numbers in March and April. All that aside, 14p/5a/4r for the last two months in the season is solid.

Next season, I don’t think it is foolish to expect 16, 6 and 4 out of Stuckey on 45% shooting. That’s precisely what Tony Parker did in 2004-05, the year they took the championship from us. (well, except that Stuck is much better from the charity stripe than Parker and gets to the line as much)

No on Rondo, please. It’d be fun to have a pure point guard running our team, but combo point guards win championships, and when Rondo did, he wasn’t a pure point yet.

I agree with Toledo Joe completely that our back court is fine. I do not think Stuckey should be given up on. This season he was essentially a rookie, MCIAFI came in, all his veteran PG support was gone (Billups, Hunter, Porter), and AI made everything complicated. I’m not prepared to assume he truly hit a wall. I think he did fine given the circumstances.

I also have no desire to get rid of Rip. I personally didn’t see any sign that he is on the decline and that he won’t remain our leading scorer. Any drop in performance could easily be blamed on injuries/recovery and playing out of position half the time. There aren’t many SG’s I’d rather have (that includes Ben Gordon while I’m at it) and I had no problem with his extension.

Regardless of how I feel about the quality of talent involved, it’s the positions I have a problem with. Our front court in general is one giant gaping hole. We trade our starting PG, SG, and SF for a starting PG and SG. Essentially, we lose all our trade assets and gain a gaping hole at SF. I’m not on board with that.

I think Rip gets a raw deal. He’s our captain and in my opinion he has totally earned it. He’s hit so many game-winners for us it’s crazy, and his skills shouldn’t decline any time soon. He’s Mr. Consistent, and I’d hate to see him go.

@Greg:
I’m not prepared to assume he truly hit a wall.

Stuckey admitted in a video interview on ESPN that he had hit a wall. He said he was tired, had a hard time adjusting to a full, non-stop schedule since he was out of much of his rookie season. While his shooting ‘s didn’t improve much from his poor February, his scoring, assists and rebounds all came back to about 80 of what they were in his breakout jan/dec.

Otherwise, I agree completely. Our backcourt is fine. No reason to play with it. IMO, there’s only one shooting guard in the whole league (aside from dwyane wade, kobe bryant obviously) that i’d replace Rip with, and that’s Kevin Martin. and Martin ain’t going nowhere…

I worry that as Rip ages, those injuries will become more frequent.

But, the good thing is that if he gets hurt, Stuckey can slide over and Bynum can start (Afflalo stays a backup). That’s why, even though I’m not high on Lawson, I wouldn’t mind the Pistons drafting him. It’s good insurance if Rip, Stuckey or Bynum go down for some time.

My take on the trade:

Detroit gets: an expiring contract and the right to pay Rajon Rondo very little for a year

Boston gets: the right to pay Hamilton ~11MM per for three years, the right to pay Prince ~11MM per for two years, and the right to pay Stuckey very little for two years

Re-written:
Detroit gets: relief from two bad but not awful contracts, a chance to lose to get better draft positioning, and one year of cheap Rondo

Boston gets: two bad but not awful contracts, more wins today, and an extra year of Stuckey over Rondo (but a worse player)

I think it’s a no-brainer for Boston, which tells me they should probably be giving up more (i.e. swap in Amir and a high second round pick for Stukcey).

For us, I’m not sure how it helps. This is mostly just a salary dump, since you only have Rondo signed to an attractive contract for a year. I think if we want to do a “punt mostly reasonable contracts for cap space and losses (i.e. picks)” trade, we can do a lot better than one year of below market Rajon Rondo. But maybe that’s just me.

Oh, and for those pro-stuckey folk on here who want to reminisce, the original of this vid (that was once embedded in a DBB post) has been removed from youtube. here’s one that is still live. “I’m never scared.”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5amjXL-7nQ&feature=player_embedded

I agree with Matt about the draft being deep with PGs, the only problem is, we’ve got enough god damned guards. I don’t agree with TJ about Detroit being a prime free agency target. Why? because Tiger Stadium is being torn down? Ben Wallace wanted out of Detroit, Allan Houston did as well (do you really want to pay the chiropractor bills he rang up? He must’ve had Brad Daughtery’s chiropractor on speed dial) and Grant Hill? I’ll take a ring over a superstar anyday.

the hairbrained trade offers over at CelticsBlog are more real than half the proposals I read here… everyone should be offended by that, because you all know Boston fans are douchebags. They think Ray Allen is the 2nd coming of Michael Jordan with some of the shit you read over there… They ALL bickered over a 5 player deal centered around Ray Allen going to Portland for 4 (yes 4!) of Portland’s prime young talented players to fill positions they currently need to be filled (Backup C – Pryz, Backup SF – Outlaw, Backup SF/SG – Fernandez, etc) saying that they were giving up too much in return.

We need help in the backcourt… sure we have the names and the faces that we all know (and most love) but Tayshaun’s time in Detroit is done. Richard Hamilton is one of the few starting SGs in the NBA who do not threaten teams from 3 point land. Rip isn’t going to come off a screen and bury 3s like Ray is.

I’m not all in about dumping money just to dump… if you get a chance to realistically acquire a point guard who can run a team, you make the deal. This deal isn’t the deal to make, so we move on. But don’t get it twisted, Richard Hamilton at $11 million a year? Overpaid. You can count all star appearances all you want, he’s overpaid and Tayshaun? What, $20.5m over the next 2 seasons? Overpaid. Tay is living on the 2004 Finals and he gets a lot of respect. 14ppg for 10 million? Shit, I’d pay Trevor Ariza $10m TODAY before I’d pay Tayshaun $10m.

Shit, if Ariza and Tay were on my team next season and I was MCIAFI? I’d start Ariza over Tay in a heartbeat.

Rondo
Ray
Ariza
Boozer
Hold

that’s not a bad lineup, not the best, but not worse than what we got already.

So, when did Bill Simmons become a lower-level Celtics executive?

At least we don’t have guys faking injuries to skip out on working out for us so we don’t draft them and we aren’t threatening guys that we’ll draft them.

Detroit > Memphis

Richard Hamilton is one of the few starting SGs in the NBA who do not threaten teams from 3 point land. Rip isn’t going to come off a screen and bury 3s like Ray is.

In this year’s playoffs, Ray Allen had games of 5, 13, 12, 8, 9, 10, and 4 points. Remember how streaky he was in last year’s playoffs? He explodes for the occasional big game, but the dude kills them with his slumps. Also, remember that episode of South Park where Kyle had Mr. Garrisons testes put in his knees? I’m willing to bet Ray Allen had that surgery with his ankles and if he jumps too hard, they’ll explode.

Mr. Onions,

Do you really think that Ray Allen will become the centerpiece of the organization? He’s another contract who can be used to acquire more talent next season once he’s able to be traded again…

Who cares about Ray Allen’s shooting slumps, at least he still poses a threat from 3 point land whereas Rip may shoot a decent percentage but it’s not as dangerous as Ray.

Having read the entire discussion…

I agree with the school of thought that says our backcourt is good enough.

I agree with Matt W’s commentary, adding that Dumars has other options open to him, he probably feels no need to do a deal right now, especially since he doesn’t know what he might be picking up in the FA market or the draft.

Wow,

I’ve read a lot of the comments on this blog and there appears to be a lot of disagreement on whether the trading elements are better than one another.

But, I think we are missing the point. The objective is to get a championship. Not to rebuild for the sake of rebuilding or clear cap space for next years free agent crop. If we gave up our three best players we wouldn’t have any leverage in the future to lure free agents to detroit or trade for more valuable pieces in the future. Which would prevent us from reaching our goal sooner rather than later.

The trade that Boston is proposing would send us into Basketball purgotory for years. With only Rajon Rondo as a viable center piece we wouldn’t be competitive at all. He wouldn’t have anyone to pass the ball to and I’m not sold on the ideal that he is quick enough to break teams down off the dribble by himself as some seem to be. He needs other good players to spread the floor and for the defenses to account for. I also don’t think he is a quality leadership type of guy such as Chris Paul. This trade would result in a period of basketball that would probably be much worse than the teal years.

So understandeably the Detroit front office thought this was a bad trade and I happen to agree. And I frankly can’t see how any Piston fan could see this differently given the goal of being competitive and ultimately winning a championship.

I agree, our back court is fine. I still belive if you put Stuck on boston and vice/versa, he puts up very similar numbers as Rondo.

And someone said way above, why is boston looking to trade Rondo? Allen, a trade deadline casualty for cap purposes for some team. And at this point, why would anyone give up young talent or semi young (28-31) for Ray Allen? The dude is old, slow and except for the occasional outburst, not a 20 pt scorer anymore (as opposed to Rip).

This was a WTF I’ll make a call for a trade proposal. Some folks think Boston could have competed for a title this year with a healthy KG (& Powe). I agree but I think the Lakers depth with Bynum back would have prevailed. Orl’s got experience now and the Lakers will be contenders. Throw in SA after the trade (and a trade or two more) and suddenly Boston is in line at position 3 – 5. Over the cap and winning the ring, good. Watching Ainge and the Celtics squirm being over the cap and falling farther back from a ring. . priceless.

byebye amir

http://www.realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/60013/20090623/detroit_trades_amir_johnson_to_bucks/

Alright, you guys have convinced me that Rondo isn’t a big enough upgrade over Stuckey to warrant this trade. I still don’t like Rip’s contract extension.

I think the Pistons would make this deal if it was Rondo and Powe or Perkins for Stuckey and Prince. Right now Rip is are strongest bargining chip because of his production on the court.