Debating the merits of Amir Johnson has been a favorite pastime among regular commenters, but I hope any discussion that follows this post won’t be a re-hashed critique of the guy’s skills or potential. Even if you disagree about his ceiling, did the guy play hard? I’m guessing even his most fervent detractors will concede that.

I’m more concern on how the Pistons plan on getting rid of Oberto!!!!

TRADE— oh, wait nevermind.

Honestly, I think Scott Skiles will likely be plenty excited. He gets a shot at Tyrus Thomas minus the ego? Might time for the young man to shine, provided he can get his fouls under control. And when the minutes were there, Amir always did. It’ll be interesting to see how this plays out…

They should have trader the coach and not Amir.This is a trade I’m afraid we regret in the future .

What was his foul rate this year? Did it drop?

“Sadly, I’m not optimistic; this is a guy who thought it perfectly sane to start Luke Ridnour and Chris Duhon over the likes of Ramon Sessions and Ben Gordon.”

Yeah. Bucks management probably didn’t even want to tempt him by having Oberto on the roster.

Whether or not the coaching staff was brought in to help Amir, Curry’s “tiny grind” style of basketball was an extremely poor fit for Amir’s strengths. The Bucks play at a relatively fast pace, whereas the Pistons play at the slowest pace in all of the NBA.

While Skiles is certainly a doghouse coach, he doesn’t suffer from foul paranoia the way other coaches do.

The assertion that Amir clearly isn’t interested isn’t supported with any data or anecdotal observation, so the best I can say is “nuh-uh”.

Effort was never an issue with Amir.

Drive and interest are different than motor. Amir had plenty of energy but that doesn’t mean he used it effectively.

But a huge reason for my infatuation with the guy’s game is that he has a motor that doesn’t quit — he gets rebounds other players can’t, he snags loose balls most veterans concede. If anything, his hyperactivity has held him back, at least in regards to needless fouls. I’m completely convinced that if Johnson ever fully realizes his potential, it’ll be because he plays with more restraint, not more effort or drive.

Ditto.

Regarding Bucks’ coaching staff: I liked the way the Bulls played under Skiles when they were at their best; they played good D and rebounded well. I seems to me that the Bucks will at least give Amir a shot — they’ve really got nothing to lose at this point.

I wanted Amir to do well with Detroit and I wish him well with the Bucks, but I was not impressed with his play last year. No doubt part of the problem was the coaches and Detroit just being a weird place to play last year, but Amir should shoulder some blame too.

That’s all just to try to establish my not-in-the-tank-for-Amir bona fides, so I can say this with some credibiliy: As Jim says, effort was never an issue with Amir.

At least not physical effort. Maybe “mental” effort was an issue. Amir not only committed dumb fouls but was often out of position. Still, being jerked around in playing time and with all sorts of different lineups probably made knowing assignments tough, especially for a young/inexperienced player. We’ll see what happens with the Bucks.

amir’s lack of effort in the fourth quarter in a late season game against philly helped win that game and that is why he was benched a week later again against philly. curry was proved right as the team again lost a fourth quarter lead in that second game.

I’m wondering if the Pistons should draft Dionte Christmas this year.That way, when we trade him, we can wonder, all together now, “what are going to get for Christmas?”

Sorry.

“Maybe "mental" effort was an issue.”

That’s the way I feel about it. I don’t see fouls as heightened physical effort, but rather a lack of mental effort. Look at Birdman, he plays with tons of energy, AND doesn’t foul profusely.

If you look at the situation in Detroit, it’s incredibly plausible that he would have a lack of mental effort. If his talent finally materializes in Milwaukee, was it his effort or some other factors holding him back?

I don’t know what to say. Something seemed different — completely, utterly different — with Amir last season.

I don’t think I was turned off, or felt spurned, because the guy we looked forward (for years) to getting deserved minutes finally got them, and didn’t bust out. I don’t think that clouded my judgment, which is a fair criticism of my post.

Just felt like he played a step-slow last year. And I saw a lot of him, more so than most national guys you’ll probably read. He just didn’t seem to have the drive we saw in limited minutes prior to 2008-09. The effort, through my TV, just didn’t appear to be the same as it was in years previous.

Agree to disagree. Hopefully he turns it around in Wisconsin, because I do dig his game.

He didn’t get that many more minutes this year, though, than in the prior season.

2008-2009 62 games 14.7 min/game
2007-2008 62 games 12.3 min/game

As a note, isn’t it wonderful for basketball fans to have access to all sorts of numbers from places like 82games.com, basketball-reference.com, and NBA hot spots? It really allows us to so much more informed.

Dwyer is a twat. Proven by this sterling analysis of a young player and yesterday’s take on Dumars’ refusal of the Rondo deal.

@TDP
Dwyer comes out of his way to slum with us and explain where he was coming from. Sure, we’re not all going to agree with him, but how many NBA scribes do you know that would do that?

I’d say Dwyer probably doesn’t watch a lot of Pistons. Which would be odd considering he’s a Bulls fan, but still…

Okay, Birdman… he’s the Pied Piper of Twats. I’ll concede that.

Also, if you haven’t already been over to Full Court Press, there’s a pretty funny video showcasing a remix of Iverson’s “Practice” rant among other funny sports press moments. Surprisingly well-done.

“Amir needs to read a book.”

-Rasheed Wallace

Pretty sure it wasn’t the physical part of the game that kept the kid down.

Roll the Dyess, yeah, that’s what I meant. I really do mean, “we’ll see,” because while Amir wasn’t playing smart (in fact, the opposite of that), he was in a tough situation last year. Thrust into the starter’s role on a team that suddenly had no identity, a leadership vacuum/crisis, going through a series of ever-changing and often head-scratchingly odd starting lineups and rotations.

Amir did not in any sense make the best of a bad situation, and thanks to Joel for reminding me of that ‘Sheed quote, which I think says a lot. But let’s say the jury is out on Amir, and physical effort is probably not the main issue.

Also, I did love seeing Amir get a tech for pushing lebron and varejao in the playoffs this year. It was the highlight of the series, IMO. Prior to that, I didn’t think the kid had it in him.

Amir’s been called for three fouls since the trade went down.

But, seriously, I’m a staunch Amir conservative but I always liked his energy.

My concerns with him were his lack of strength which made him a very poor defender in the post. Also, he didn’t set very good picks. If he did, I think he would have opened himself up for a lot of open dunks (see: Gortat, Marcin).

Wow, after watching Amir for the last few seasons it’s obvious his ceiling isn’t as high as some of us thought, but you’re a fuckin nut job if you think this kid lacks effort.

Forgive me if anyone has mentioned this yet, but apparently:

Dave Cowens is walking away from Mike Curry’s staff in Detroit, and they’re saying the Pistons may try to get by with only two or three assistant coaches. (11-12 paragraphs before the end of the article)

Can somebody explain Joe’s aversion to Laimbeer coaching?

If there is a head coach in this league who can “get by with only two or three assistant coaches,” it is most definitely not MCIAFI.

He is a fucking idiot.

Yeah he is, that motherfucker needs to be relegated to popcorn sales forthwith

According to the Detroit News, Cowens is getting a promotion (or a lateral move). He’s going to be working with Dumars in scouting.

@MFSkylar:
“Yoo want butto?”

“What?”

“Butto. Foda popcone.”

That would make a good Swishahouse song. Curry needs to change professions.

@Skylar:
Funny story- I once produced an audio track for a Pop Secret ad back in the early 2000’s. They wanted something “Barry White-ish”, so I put together a slow funk instrumental and then talked over it, down-pitching my voice so it sounded like B. White. I said shit like “girl, you got that smooth and creamy kinda butta I like”, and “gimme that butter baby” and “girl you make me want to pop like some loooove popcorn”

The ad never ran. If only I could find a copy…

No one had a good season. If it works, fix any way
Is what the Pistons did.

When did Rasheed say that about Amir? I’d never seen it until just now.

BH, he said it during a piece on Christmas. It was a light piece about what players would buy other Piston players. Amir jokingly said that he would buy Rasheed a car because he drives a beat up Ford Bronco.

Sheed, who looked like he was in no mood for jokes, said he would buy Amir some books because he needed to read some books. Amir would have been academically ineligible had he gone to Louisville.

I don’t know how much you can correllate between book smarts and basketball IQ but it was a very curt and, perhaps, telling statement.

And it made me laugh a bunch at that time and almost every time I’ve thought about it afterward. To have Rasheed, who is one of the more socially aware and brainy players in the NBA, say that Amir needs to read some books I think tipped a lot of people off early that maybe Amir’s is the case of a V8 Caddy with a faulty computer.

KD: Thanks for stopping by. I’ll certainly agree that Johnson looked tentative at times (and his overall production declined from 07-08), but he wasn’t alone — it seemed like half the team was unsure about their role and looking over their shoulder for most of the year.

I put that on Curry, who’s almost universally regarded by Pistons fans as a stooge put in place by Dumars to bide time until the team is actually ready to compete again. Blame ultimately falls on the players, but Curry didn’t put anyone on the roster in position to succeed last year.

@MP: and "gimme that butter baby" I need that just to play for my wife!! lol

After talking (emailing) with some people who know and doing some digging on the net it looking alsmost a sure thing that the Bucks will not make a QO to Villanueva by next Wed and he will become an unrestricted free agent.

The Bucks are letting him go so that they can start Johnson at PF.

I wonder if Dumars will make a free agent offer to C. Villanueva so that in affect it would be trading Johnson for CV. LOL

Birdman
Jun 24th, 2009 at 8:14 am

What was his foul rate this year? Did it drop?
==
Actually his foul rate was low enough to have enabled him to play more than 30 minutes a game on the average before fouling out.

And while he had the guts to tackle Lebron and then go at AV after the play he had a lot more toughness than other guys who would just stand around and watch Lebron waltz to the basket uncontested.

Mike, that seems absurd that Milwaukee wouldn’t make a qualifying offer to CV. But lets say they don’t, then I would take him at 6-7 mil per. Could we potentially grab CV, Ariza, AND Gortat?

Mike, this is an extremely important point: Guys lay down for Lebron far too much, especially in the playoffs. Pistons cannot develop that as a habit.

I was told by Bill Ingram at Hoopsworld that this is what the Bucks are planning to do.

There have also been people in the Bucks world saying that CV will be not be extended a QO.

I think Ariza stays with the Lakers. He is from Los Angeles and I think that they let Odom go if they have to let anyone go.

They way overpaid to keep Bynum so now they are kind of in a bind going forward. Bynum can score and rebound okay but his interior defense is softer than Charmin TP.

Gortat would be a good pickup and a nice backup for Kwame.

It appears Mullins will probably not be there at #15. We shall more in about 24 hours.

Thanks, QD. That’s very interesting. It reminds me again of how much I’m going to miss Rasheed. He’s one of the all-time most fascinating NBA characters, sui generis, so funny and smart. They’re just aren’t a lot of guys like him. I loved having him on the Pistons. Whenever he’s on the floor for your team, your five guys are more badass than the opposing five guys. Wish he could stick around, though I understand why he won’t.

DARKO!

Cosign Bill. That’s gonna kill me.

I remember there being a big argument here mid-season about how the 2007 NBA draft would look if it were ran again today, and where Stuckey would land. I remember several of us saying adamantly that Stuck would be a top 5 pick, and I remember others (not going to lawyer name any boy names) disagreeing wholeheartedly. FanHouse agrees with the pro-Stuck crew here:
http://nba.fanhouse.com/2009/06/24/revisiting-the-2007-nba-draft/

My respect for Dwyer is quickly declining. Did you see the reaction piece he wrote about the Pistons turning down the proposed Allen/Rondo for Hamilton/Prince/Stuckey swap? Dwyer’s reaction? What the heck is Dumars thinking. Oh really?

First of all, it’s debatable who the better player is between Rondo and Stuckey. It seems eminently clear to me Stuckey is far more coachable, which might explain why the Celtics were in the very basement of the NBA before they got Garnett and Pierce. Remember, a horribly bad year for us Pistons is still getting to the playoffs.

Second, you’re basically gutting the whole team to obtain one long term player. Yes, you get cap room, but what free agent is going to sign if he has nobody there to help him win a championship? Furthermore, Dwyer might not value Prince, Hamilton, and Stuckey very highly, but let me remind you how often we went to the conference finals. There has to be something to their talent which allowed us to do this.

So no, Dwyer’s “analysis” if you can call it that is pure rubbish to me.

This sucks.

Joe D might as well just get rid of everyone and start from scratch.

Oberto???

Kwame starting at center???

I liked Amir for many of the reasons mentioned here – toughness, effort, athleticism, height, and wingspan. If Curry and Dumars can’t work with a guy who has those four things, they need to go elsewhere.

Maybe this is Dumars’ gift to John Hammond?

Shaq to Cavs!!

Watch we about to sign Wallace X2 once Ben gets his buyout!

Totally OT, but I just watched Dwight Howard on Jimmy Fallon (who is insufferable) and it made me wonder: is he paying royalties for all the Superman stuff he does? That must cost a fortune.

…annnnnnnnd Shaq is a Cav. (hope you like the desert, ben)

f-ing steve kerr is such a little twat.

Last year, I think I saw him show a bit of frustration in wake of a quick 2nd foul here or there, which was an improvement from at least being stone surprised that he got the fouls in the first place … I guess you could call that ‘improvement.’

That’s why he’s gone. Drafted in ‘05, Amir’s no closer to being useful in ‘09, and that’s at least one more year than most guys get on Potential Mountain.

Dwyer’s incorrect about Amir’s hustle, yes. He’s mistaken for the uneven energy levels of Jason Maxiell, methinks.

@ Sable:

I’m not a Dwyer fan, either.

Looks like this is gonna be LeBron’s new anthem with Shaq clogging his lanes ….

They passed on Tyson Chandler … for Shaq?

Is it just me, or did Cleveland just guarantee LeBron’s departure?!?

Tyson Chandler isn’t worth anything.

If Tyson’s not worth anything, Snaqs O’Meal is worth less than nothing.

Off Topic: in case you guys are bored, browse this one -www.shamsports.com, for basketball aficionados that needs a break or something.

I’m absolutely delighted by this Shaq to the Cavs deal. The two questions I have are:

(1) How does Cleveland think this makes them better? They’re worse at defending the pick and roll than they were yesterday. Last I checked offense wasn’t the problem for them. How do they think they’re defending against Boston and Cleveland? Why do you trade for a guy who occupies more space in the middle than anybody else in history when you have LeBron? I don’t get it.

(2) This is the best Phoenix could do for Shaq? Really? You trade Marion for Shaq. If you hold on to Marion and let him go this year, his whole contract comes off the books and you’re suddenly a player in the market. They save like what, $5 million? If they did nothing, they save the $18 million Marion was worth. Does Kerr have any plan whatsoever? Why does Robert Sarver even own a team if he’s going to force his GM to do stupid things (if Kerr’s hand was forced). If I were a Suns fan, I’d be extremely concerned about what’s going on.

O-Matt: I agree. I saw on ESPN last nite that the problem with the Orl series was mostly defending the pick-n-roll with Dwight & Hedo. Exactly how does that help Clwev now? And given how Bron get’s into the lane & then goes to the line, not sure what this trade does.

As for Kerr, I’m thinking that he was hired to break up D’Antonio and the crew, i.e., scapegoat (save money for Sarver). He can make that trade and then subsequently let Mike D. go and the fans ire turns to Kerr and not Sarver who bought out Coangelo who was a much liked owner.

“How do they think they’re defending against Boston and Cleveland?”

Well, they won’t have to worry about defending Cleveland. They have to worry about defending Dwight Howard, which is something Shaq can do quite well.

Further, if the Shaq experiment doesn’t work, this will help them get well under the cap for 2010.

Phoenix gets nothing out of the deal, other than the same check Stern cut to Memphis for the Gasol giveaway.

Whoever said it was right: this ensures that Bron-Bron’s gone. No way in hell they get out of the East with this lineup. They couldn’t have beaten a healthy Boston last year (or Orlando, obviously). I think it safe to assume we’ll all be watching LeBron put up ridiculous numbers in D’Antoni’s system in a year-and-a-half. I’m kind of looking forward to it, actually. I hate the Knicks, but I can’t help but think LeBron’s gonna average 35-12-12 with D’Antoni. Probably lose to better defensive teams like the Suns did every year, but at least be fun to watch.

LeBron = Dan Marino 2?

I remember wishing that we would have traded AI for Shaq straight up last year. I just thought he was the perfect fit next to Sheed and we’d still would have had space in 2010. Anyways, there are plenty of reasons why that would have been a bad trade for us, but I think it would have been much better for the Suns because AI’s contract would’ve come off the books this summer rather than Ben retiring next summer. Then again, maybe he’ll retire for a reasonable buyout this year. So, basically, SKIAFI.

@Colin

Me too, hombre. That trade would have been PERFECT. PERFECT. I think realistically it would’ve given us a shot to make Finals. Because the one couple-week stretch where we had AI out and everyone else back and healthy (sometime in March I believe), we actually looked GREAT, we beat Orlando twice, Denver at home, and had a couple more quality wins. The only thing we were missing was a true offensive big to put on the block so Rasheed could float around. Shaq was IT. Then we have Dyess back coming off the bench where he should be— Bynum, AA, Fabio, Dyess, Kwame is an incredible B-squad. And the salaries would’ve matched PERFECTLY. AI would’ve come off the books right away, so instead of saving $5mil like they did with this trade, the Suns would’ve had $21mil come off the books immediately. Everyone’s happy.

Why aren’t we GM’s? I swear to God all of our ideas are GENIUS compared to the shit these nimrods (Kerr, Joe D, Ferry) come up with.

So, what’s the over/under for how much longer before Nash snaps, kidnaps Sarver, and heads out to the desert for a “talk”?

Shaq wouldn’t want to come to Detroit, but I agree with you dudes.

As far as Lebron being the Dan Marino of new millenium basketball, I disagree, he’s a whiny little shit, but one who hasn’t neared his peak.

Interesting that Shaq will have played with Kobe, Wade, and now LeBron, general consensus is that these guys are the top 3 talents in the NBA. It will be interesting to see if he gets a ring during the small window he and ’Bron are playing for Cleveland.

I think this is actually a pretty solid trade for Cleveland. They gave up no one who contributed to them during the playoffs this year and Shaq’s deal expires at the end of this year, so they’ll still have cap space in 2010. Shaq has actually defended D. Howard pretty well in the post in games they’ve played against each other, with Howard averaging under 17 ppg. The pick and roll will still cause issues, but is Shaq much worse then Big Z at that?

Joel, Joe D and Steve Kerr have little in common, I object to the notion Dumars is a nimrod. He isn’t.

Semi off-topic, I feel while things have been quiet in ’Illadelph, nobody in the league is in a better position to finesse some sort of deal for Elton Brand than Joe Dumars right now. Sic Arnie Kander on that fool and watch him put in work.

@Skylar

Shaq wouldn’t want to come to Detroit, but he’s going to be happy with Cleveland? Seriously, if there is one “major” city shittier than D-Town, it is most definitely the Mistake By the Lake. At least Detroit has those hilarious urban farms.

There was magic in the water in Phoenix. There are dead fish and sewage in the water in Cleveland.

Speaking of Brand:
http://www.philly.com/inquirer/sports/20090625_For_76ers__NBA_draft_is_a_crapshoot.html?viewAll=y

“An NBA source has confirmed that Stefanski has shopped power forward Elton Brand, last off-season’s blockbuster acquisition.”

Adding Shaq to our team last year would have been interesting and definitely made us better, but I don’t think it makes us a legitimate contender for the title. We would have needed an elite player to push us from 39 wins to championship caliber. Plus, we’d have no cap space this summer and we’d be losing Sheed and Dyess. We would get cap room in 2010 and it will have better FA’s then this summers class, but we are one of the few teams now with big money to spend, while next year there will be a lot of teams with cap rom.

@Skylar (re: Sixers)

I’m down for Brand. His price tag is only “steep” if he can’t stay healthy— a healthy Brand is worth every penny. And he’s absolutely built to play for a half-court, grind-it-out team like the Pistons. Could you imagine if we’d had him last year to pair next to Rasheed?

I’m also down for the “Rip + extras for Iggy” deal that was proposed yesterday by somebody (forgot who). I’m a big fan of Iggy’s game. This would all be contingent on us signing Ben Gordon though, thus making Rip expendable. We’d then have a backcourt of Stuck/MFWB, Gordon/AA, Iggy/Prince (and yes, Prince most DEF goes to the bench). I think Prince would be a marvelous super-sub, much like Odom was for LA this year. He could still play 30+ min between the 2-4 positions depending on the situation. And his ball-handling skills would be crucial with that second unit. The bigs are still a concern in this scenario, but we do have whatever money is left over after the Gordon signing to work with, so all is not lost. And that guard/SF lineup is all-world. Easily the tops in the league, IMO.

Joel, the way I found out about the Shaq trade was a text msg early this morning from my brother that said :“SHAQ traded to the mistake by the lake” it’s very amusing both you dudes use that phrase. I agree, Cleveland is some bunk, bammer, bullshit. But Detroit has no Lebron. Plus Butta foda Popcones makes Mike LeBrown look like an actually competent coach. I can’t call it man.

Stefanski makes bad decisions, I would love to see Dumars pillage the ever lovin’ shit out of that franchise.

@MF Skylar:
Butta foda Popcones

Hahahahahha

Oh, and since I haven’t seen it mentioned yet, Ggoodbbye Wwalterr.

I’ll miss Herrmann because he was interesting to watch, but he wasn’t really consistent. He now joins a pretty large lists of failed SF backups dating back to Corliss leaving after the championship season. I keep asking, how hard is it to find a good solid backup SF, but I guess the answer is “pretty hard.”

Earl Clark baby!

(already taken)

T-Will baby!

(already taken)

BJ Mullens, eh?

(already taken)

Pretty sure we’re going to wind up with a PG at #15. I’m MORE than okay with Eric Maynor or Ty Lawson. You’d think SF grow on trees, but alas they do not.

if we draft bj mullens or austin daye, my reaction will be something like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpMdxCVuGR0

though probably not as extreme.

Sacramento has reportedly offered Detroit the #23 and #31 picks in exchange for the #15. The Kings may target DeJuan Blair at 15 if he’s available, while the Pistons like Toney Douglas and possibly DaJuan Summers

pleasepleasepleasepleasepleasepleaseplease

/still not giving up on getting the Summers bandwagon rolling…

I’m very skeptical about Summers, he’s 6’8" and 240 pounds and a good athlete, and he only averaged 5.6 rebounds per/40 minutes last season. That’s a very worrisome number, it suggest he really didn’t put his tools to good use and it’s probably an indication of him being pretty soft, as he should have been physically dominant against college competition. Also, on top of his so-so numbers, when you consider he played for a team that didn’t even make the NCAA tournament, I just have a hard time seeing how he’s an NBA player.

For comparison, Austin Daye averaged 10.4 rebounds per/40 minutes last season (and he’s not exactly known for his physical toughness). That should tell you something about DaJuan Summers… Any NBA prospect with his size and athleticism should have absolutely no problem grabbing 10 rebounds per/40 minutes, and he didn’t even come close.

Joel, Dumars is a nimrod for not trading AI for Shaq?

Why in God’s name would Phoenix do that deal? They thought they could be a playoff team and even a contender with Shaq (Porter was the scapegoat when they started off slow). They would have been a dangerous team to play had Amare not gotten injured at the end of the season. And how would AI fit with Nash and Barbosa?

I don’t think you can call someone a nimrod for not making a deal that never a consideration.

How many goddamn second round picks do we need? If we make that trade with Sacramento, that would give us 4 of the first 12 picks in the second round… package them together to get back into the first?

This is crazy. We NEVER have this many draft picks— I’m not used to it. I don’t even know how to talk intelligently about this many 2nd rounders.

But in all seriousness, I’m pretty sure that Joe likes somebody at #15, because he said in that “Joe D Salary Cap” article on Detnews.com that the whole point with this offseason was to bring in 3 new guys who can contribute right away— two through free agency and one with the #15. If we made that trade with Sac-town, I think we’d package the #23 with a slew of our second-rounders to move back up higher in the first, maybe to somewhere around #9-13.

@QD

Not necessarily a nimrod for not making a Shaq deal happen, but for most every move he’s made in the last couple years (bad Rip extension, Chauncey trade, SF backup failure after failure, etc.). He’s not really that bad, but sometimes I can’t help but think a lot of us would do better jobs than a lot of the GM’s out there (Joe D occasionally included).

@ Gabe: I would hope Daye at 6’10" playing in the WCC would get close to 10 a game. There were a couple of teams in that conference who didn’t even start a % at that height and Gonzaga and Josh Heyveldt at the 5. Plus I think he missed the beginning because of some doobage baggage.

However, if we spend the #15 on Daye and he’s our backup SF, that wouldn’t be so bad. Tay’s got 2 years and certainly in that time we would know. But I’d be a little peeved that Sharpe wasn’t given the chance (or perhaps he has already been given via monitoring).

Barring some blockbuster, we all pretty much agree this is a 2-3 process. Mullens in 2 years as a project wouldn’t upset me that much. With the height and athleticism (supposedly), two years of nothing but B-Ball would make for a nice 5 I think. He has the tools and being forced to imporve upon that is what the NBA is all about for guys like him.

Barring something whack and a total misreading by the majority of pundits, we’re not going to get an immediate game-changer at 15. The most painful part of this year, asided from MCIAFI, was the fact that watching the team you knew AI wasn’t coming back, ditto Sheed and probably Dyess, you were left with no real hope of the team you were watching ever improving as a unit. I can live with an 7 or 8 or a season or two knowing at least you’re watching pieces being filled in and a unit coming to fruition.

It could be worse. McHale, I. Thomas or Kerr could be our GM.

Jim,

“Shaq has actually defended D. Howard pretty well in the post in games they’ve played against each other, with Howard averaging under 17 ppg.”

Let’s forget the part where the last game Shaq played against D Howard he was embarrassed. Let’s also forget that Shaq is another year old and likely another 30lbs heavier and out of 4 games next year playing Orlando, he’ll likely only play in 2 of those games because he’ll get the Phil Jackson treatment where he only plays when he wants to play.

Big deal, Cleveland got Shaq. This isn’t the Miami Heat Shaq we’re talking about… it’s the freaking “I got lost in the desert, and the only thing you heard about me was when I talked” Shaq. Sure, he’ll dominate Jason Maxiell and Tayshaun Prince (our post players next year) but shit… he’s done.

The reason we can’t find a backup SF is bacause the one that’s starting is not cutting the mustard. Tell me who’s the fabulous backup for Lebron, Melo, Butler or even Ariza(don’t say Odom because most of the time he’s covering Binum ass). The truth is that change is needed in Detroit from the coach to some of players and maybe even the GM.

Boney: +1

Of course, he’s in the desert/swamp/Lake MI working out and watching his diet. Can you imagine if the Cavs win it and Shaq runs down the court in the final game and yells “Extend Me!!” Of course he’s going to be motivated. It’s called “contract year.”

I will say only thing about Amir. I think the Pistons could had kept Amir until they made their draft pick at 15 just in case they needed him to move up in the draft.

Shaq in Cleveland is like Mark Price in Washington or Danny Manning in Detroit..

sure, he’ll play. He may even shown flashes of brilliance but… to make this move because of Dwight Howard?

All of their eggs are in one basket now for next season. Their slogan should be “Put up or shut up!” (since they love slogans in Cleveland) because Shaq is one and done, Z is expiring, LeBron can opt out…

Just think if all 3 of those guys roll out, what that would do to Cleveland. God I hope LeBron leaves Cleveland. It’s not that I don’t like the Cavaliers, it’s just that I hate fucking Cleveland. Anyone who’s a fan of any Cleveland team deserves a shitty team…

Boney…D. Howard has only averaged 17 ppg and 8.5 shots per game playing against Shaq. His highest point total against Shaq is 21. D. Howard averaged 26 ppg against Cleveland in the playoffs. I think you are talking about Shaq flopping on that one play when he was “embarrassed”, but overall he defends him much better then most 1 on 1.
  
Shaq actually had a bounce back year last season and got into decent shape. If anything, this trade has to motivate him to get in shape for this year, so I’d be real surprised if he comes back 30 lbs. heavier this season…don’t get me wrong, he’s no where near his old self and I’m not saying he’s a savior. But if you ask me would I rather have B. Wallace or Shaq this year, I’d definitely take Shaq.

Plus, playing with LeBron is motivation for anybody, even Shaq. So I expect Shaq to have a good year next season (barring any injuries).

The Cavs were/are in an interesting position about what to do in the offseason. On the one hand, the had the best regular season record, won their first eight playoff games by double-digits, and finally seemed to have some decent pieces around LeBron. On the other hand, they got beaten pretty badly by Orlando (and maybe making the Cavs feel worse, Orlando was then beaten pretty badly by LA, even though two of the games the Magic coulda/shoulda . . . ). Plus, the Cavs have one of the top two players in the NBA, maybe the best overall — and they want to keep him.

This certainly is a Big Move, but was it made to make the Cavs better as a whole or to make them match up better specifically against Orlando? If the latter, then Shaq is better on offense but probably doesn’t do the pick and roll much better on defense. And what about the Celtics?

Getting back to what matters — Detroit — this just makes it even MORE important that Detroit get some stud bigs. The legit contenders — the Cavs, Orlando, and Boston — all have stud bigs. Assuming ‘Sheed goes, I think we’ll miss him a lot on defense. The Pistons have some big holes to fill up front.

I don’t think this was a move to counter Dwight Howard. Shaq vastly improves the Cavs offense by taking a lot of the burden off Lebron.

Also, with Shaq in the lane when Lebron drives, he’s tall enough to find Shaq for an easy dunk if the Center rotates over.

Yeah, all Shaq has to do is turn his body and block out other defenders as LeBron flies down the lane. He might just as many uncontested dunks because defenders won’t be able to get around the Shaq Wall. And if Shaq and Z are on the floor at the same time that will be even more interesting.

Shaq for Ben and Pavs makes the team better, for sure. It improves their depth on the bench offensively but I don’t believe this is an option that puts them over the top.

Do you run Ilgauskus off the bench now? Do you trade Ilgauskus (expiring deal, what $14m?)?

It’s an interesting offseason for Cleveland because now they’ve got 2 big expirings (Shaq and Z) a potential expiring (LeBron) going into next offseason should LeBron decide to leave.

Jim,

Howard made Shaq look slow in the last matchup, which is all that matters at this point in Shaq’s career.

The diesel is 37 years old, he’s leaving the trainers he called “the best trainers of his career” in Phoenix, and sure he’s playing with a superstar but he played with DWade and got laughed out of the playoffs in 07, 08, and didn’t even make the playoffs last year.

Smaller, quicker post players will be able to run by Shaq and Z in the post.

Ima call that fool Sour Diesel. He moves slower than the Elvis Lion at Chuckie Cheezes.

Via Draft Express:
“-Detroit is trying to unload more salary on teams with a trade exception or cap space, in order to get further under the cap for this summer’s free agent class. Walter Sharpe is one player mentioned often in a salary cap dump.”

Probably just crap being flung, but just thought I’d throw it out there…

Neither Herrmann nor Walter Sharpe are significant in terms of Detroit’s chances on returning to the elite, but seriously, what player(s) are we clearing all this cap space for? How many FAs are we going to get? Dumars talks about two FAs plus a draft pick. . .

OT: Vince Carter just got traded to the Magic.

Well, if you’re Bosh and you think you’re a max player, there’s one. Trade Rip to Tor and accept back more in salary I guess and then tell Bosh he’ll get max money. I don’t think he has a chance in hell next year to get it. And, I don’t see how signing Marion plus a pick at 9, regardless of who that is, gets you any better than last year (unless Bargiani improves from as much as he did from one year to the next like last year). Bosh at 17M and Gortat @ 6M. Of course, we don’t have a 2 unless someone falls to us at 15.

Take Rip/Tay to Tor for bosh and sign for Max or SnT. We’ve got ~17M available, add ~20M Tay/Rip being moved, total is 37M then give Bosh 16, Ariza 7 Gortat 6 and BG 11M. Fudge a little to make the 3M difference work out.

Stuck/MFWB
BG/AA
Ariza/AA
Bosh/Max
Gortat/Kwame

That’s alot better than we were last year. Even though I don’t think Bosh is a max player. Can’t make the 3M fudge to work out, give Boozer 14.

As for Hermann, if you extend a qual offer, it’s held against your cap. The more I read this cap stuff, the more I fear the BG 11M rumor. Which means dumping Rip. Say it ain’t so, Joe.

@ Gabe: Wow. Throw in how much they may have to pay Hedo and they weren’t kidding about going over the cap. That Chip chance is truly intoxicating. . . .as we all know, er, remember. And for Battie, Alston & Lee ( I think). Gortat’s gone!!

All I got to say is: Shit !! This is fun !! Even if we’re not making any thing happen yet.

But I think some teams are starting to panic to other teams trades or percieved trades. Now we just gotta keep the ball rolling and pick up the Clips 1st pick.

This is interesting:

J.A. Adande: The Chicago Bulls are attempting to work a trade with the New Jersey Nets for the No. 11 pick with an eye on Louisville shooting guard Terrence Williams, a league source said. The Bulls currently hold the 16th and 26th picks in the first round.

Looks like BG @ 11M.

Carter makes the Magic less likeable, IMHO.

@ Toledo Joe: Agreed. But I don’t think that factored into their decision (lol).

hollinger said that means hedo ain’t coming back

Hedo & boozer?

Damn, every day we fall behind farther talent/team-wise. As long as vc is healthy (and i think he’s ready to be a roll player), D-ho, Lewis, ? (can’t bring hedo back now, can they?), VC and nelson. Damn. The east is starting to get scary good. Get Amare, Joe! Do it!

Amare for Biedrins rumors. That would be retarded for Golden State, a talent downgrade.

MP: But Amare will play better, Nellie ball and I don’t think Nash is resigning next year.

NJ 2010: Approval for new arena, Lopez/Harris/Lee – - Bron and Psycho T with this year’s 11th pick. That squad could also compete on both D & O.

And I think Joe looking for more cap space means a SnT.

@ Craig: If they do bring back Hedo, they’ve got to be favored or at least the same odds at the lakers at worst.

Really? A talent downgrade? I could see how you’d prefer Biedrins. My impression is that he is a superior rebounder and defender, but not great against BIG C’s like Howard, Shaq, etc. Offensively, he seemed to be mostly putbacks, and good hands on the PnR. Of course, I don’t watch a ton of GState ball, but I would have said Amare is better offensively worse defensively and it just depends on how you want to build your team.

@Colin:
Offensively, Amare is clearly better. Not as efficient with scoring and keeping his hands on the ball, but scores more (Biedrins is perennially top 3 in FG%). You couldn’t feed Biedrins as many attempts and expect him to keep those numbers, but 12 a game at such a high rate out of your center is solid.

Additionally, Biedrins is only 22 to Amare’s 26, has developed a defensive game and is improving his shot blocking et. al. I may have been wrong to say it would be a “talent downgrade”, it’d be better worded to just say “downgrade”. Biedrins is just more efficient on both ends of the floor, and if it weren’t for Amare’s FT shooting, I could add a different adjective before that word.

@MP:

Yes!! I won the semantics battle! In other news, work is really boring today.

How the Bucks Got Amir Johnson
-———————————————————————
This is one possible scenario

1. Hammond knew that Dumars was looking to trade Amir Johnson for a salary cap dump.
2. Hammond was interested in acquiring Johnson.(A)
3. Hammond knew that he had no player to trade to the Pistons in order to acquire Johnson that would allow the Pistons to increase their cap space this coming season.
4. Hammond was also looking to clear cap space
5. Hammond decides to try and move Jefferson to create cap space
6. So Hammond goes to his head bean counter and tells the bean counter to check it out and see if there is a player in the league whose contract could beccome a salary dump for the Pistons this coming season.
7. Bean counter compiles a list of these players and then gives the list to Hammond.
8. Hammond goes thru the list to see which one of those players might be tradable.
9. Hammond spots Udoka on the Spurs roster.
10. Hammond then looks at the rest of their roster to see who else Pop might trade as part of a deal that would allow the Bucks to dump Jefferson’s salary.
11. Hammond spots Thomas and Bowen
12. Hammond then adds up the salaires of Johnson, Bowen and Thomas and they match up with Jefferson’s salary.
13. Hammond knows that Pop wants the Spurs to get younger so he thinks that Pop might be willing to trade Bowen and Thomas in exchange for Jefferson.
14. Hammond calls Pop and asks him if he would like Jefferson.
15. Pop asks, who do I have to give you?
16. Hammond says Thomas, Bowen and Amir Johnson.
17. Pop says I don’t have Amir Johnson.
18. Hammond says to Pop that he wants Amir Johnson and knows that Dumars will probably take Udoka for Amir Johnson so that he can dump Udoka’s salary.
19. Pop says okay I will call Dumars ans see if he will trade me Johnson for Udoka.
20. Pop calls Dumars and Dumars agrees.
21. Pop then trades Udoka to the Pistons for Johnson.
22. Hammond then trades Jefferson to the Spurs for Johnson, Thomas and Bowen.

(A) Two possible reasons that Hammond would have wanted to acquire Johnson
-————————————————————————————————————————————————————————
The first would have been as salary dump next June when Johnson will become a free agent. The second is that Hammond likes Johnson’s current game. He thinks that Johnson has an significant upside from his current game. So Hammond wanted to acquire Johnnson as a current and future player. Which possibility turns out to be correct will be known by the end of this coming October. If Hammond only wants Johnson for a salary dump than there will be no contract extension deal done by the end of October. That is when teams have to sign their potential free agents for the next summer in order to keep that player.from becoming a free agent at that time.

TRADE HAMMOND NOW.

Sorry about that.

As some of you may have caught I should have said Obaerto and not Udoka. I Have never been able to keep those two straight.