No. Next!

Yes

So I now have a new scenario for the Pistons to pursue:

Starting Cap:~$19 mil(after the buyout of Oberto)

1)Sign Ben Gordon to 5 years/$45 mil($8 mil to start) New Cap:~$11 mil

2)Sign Charlie Villanueva to 5 years/$35 mil($6 mil to start) New Cap:~$5 mil

3)Sign Marcin Gortat to 5 years/$30 mil($5 mil to start) NO CAP REMAINS

4)Trade RIP to the Jazz for Boozer. This deal works under the 125% rule.

5)Since we no longer need Tay after drafting his replica along with a plethora of other SF/PF hybrids, we might as well trade him. So we trade him to the Clippers for Kaman and Thornton. This deal works under the 125% rule as well.

So then our team shapes up like this:

Stuckey/MFWB
Gordon/Afflalo/Washington
Thornton/Summers/Daye/Jerebko
Boozer/Villanueva/Maxi
Kaman/Gortat/Brown

We go from being very thin up front to suddenly being very deep up front. Keep in mind if all the other moves are made we do not NEED to trade Tay. I just figure if we could get a nice young replacement to go along with our other draft picks(not to mention another good center to boot) that the time to strike a deal would be now. But if we didn’t our team would still be pretty good:

Stuckey/MFWB
Gordon/Afflalo/Washington
Tay/Summers/Daye/Jerebko
Boozer/Villanueva/Maxi
Gortat/Kwame

Still very solid, I just like the fact that we could possibly get Kaman and Thornton for Tay. I can’t wait until July 1st to see what all goes down.

Only if we play him at SF. Otherwise, we return to the PF bullshit we dealt with in Rasheed’s later years all over again— minus the defensive ability.

We’d have a PF that prefers to lob jumpers instead of play in the post, but can’t do shit on the other end of the floor. With that, he’s a broke man’s Rasheed in the best of times defensively. If he’s our SF, he’d be oversized and fast enough— sign me the hell up. Otherwise, no thank you.

Besides, one season of consistency does not a stud player make. If we can get him for a mid level contract, awesome. A dime more than that, we’ve got an anemic PF who is a liability on the defensive end and a coin toss on O. He’s Andres Nocioni without the flopping ability.

@Kronik:
Man, I don’t even know where to start…

1)Sign Ben Gordon to 5 years/$45 mil($8 mil to start) New Cap:~$11 mil

If you think Ben Gordon is going to sign an $8 million dollar deal (even to start), you’re nuts.

2)Sign Charlie Villanueva to 5 years/$35 mil($6 mil to start) New Cap:~$5 mil

If you think Charlie Villanueva is going to sign for $6 million (to start), you’re nuts.

If we can get Ben Gordon and Charlie Villanueva for $14 million, I’ll give you the keys to my car, a winning lottery ticket and Adriana lima’s phone number. Never, ever going to happen.

3)Sign Marcin Gortat to 5 years/$30 mil($5 mil to start) NO CAP REMAINS

4)Trade RIP to the Jazz for Boozer. This deal works under the 125% rule.

With your magic salary cap math, yeah it does. But in the world where Ben Gordon and Charlie Villanueva get the $19 million combined they have coming to them, there is NO CAP left for your 125% deal to work.

5)Since we no longer need Tay after drafting his replica along with a plethora of other SF/PF hybrids, we might as well trade him. So we trade him to the Clippers for Kaman and Thornton.

Don’t get me wrong, I’ve wanted Tay gone since last year’s playoffs— but if you think any of our draft picks can pick up where he left off you might as well empty your bank account on lottery tickets. Until they get real NBA PT, suggesting they can pick up where Tay left off is like suggesting Michael Curry is a genius at rotation management. It’s dumb.

Oh, and @Kronik:
Stuckey/MFWB
Gordon/Afflalo/Washington
Tay/Summers/Daye/Jerebko
Boozer/Villanueva/Maxi
Gortat/Kwame

I love how Villanueva plays backup PF for you here. You want to pay him $6 million to be a backup? He’s only had one season as a consistent sub, and otherwise he’s been shit.

I don’t know what Ben Gordon will be signing for, but I know he won’t get $11 mil per like he said he was promised. $8 mil might be a bit low but who is going to offer him more than that? I think $8-$9 mil to start is pretty reasonable, especially in this bad economy.

Charlie V has been rumored to get just a little over the MLE, so why not get him for $6 mil to start? Last I checked that is a lil over the MLE. Again, I don’t know who will offer him more than that so I see it as a realistic possibility to sign him somewhere between $6-$7 mil to start.

As for Tay, if we did move him in my proposed agenda, we would be getting back Al Thornton, so we wouldn’t need our draft picks to step in and pick up where Tay left off. We would have Thornton to do that. Thornton averaged 17 and 5 last year in only his second year. Tay has never averaged more than 14 and 5 in ANY year. We would miss Tay’s defensive abilities a bit but that part of his game has been slowly declining anyways. Might as well get some fresher legs in there(Thornton is only 25).

13.0 and 6.4
11.8 and 5.9
11.7 and 6.1
16.2 and 6.7

Those are Charlie’s points and rebounds for all 4 years he has been in the league. He has never averaged more than 30 minutes in any season and he has only been a starter for less than half the games he has played in the NBA. So given the chance, he could probably average 18 and 8 easy, with a realistic shot at 20 and 10. The reason I have him as our backup is because we did the trade for Boozer, but that would only be a 1 year rental. In which case we would get his money off the books next year along with Kwame’s, so we could get another major player in next year’s offseason.

Lee would be so much better than Villanueva

The Bucks didn’t want him… they didn’t want him because they got Amir and thought he was a better fit… so we should pick up CV after he was cut because of a player we just dumped?

There has got to be a reason he’s not a 30mpg/starter player yet, plus his numbers came on a BAD team.

Charlie’s like a less-wise Rasheed Wallace with lesser defense and lesser hair. Why not?

Oh, and lesser health too. Why not?

Absolutely!!! I would muh rather have him than Booze. You just KNOW Booze is getting injured month into the season. Charlie V is much younger and has better potential

We’d have a PF that prefers to lob jumpers instead of play in the post, but can’t do shit on the other end of the floor. With that, he’s a broke man’s Rasheed in the best of times defensively. If he’s our SF, he’d be oversized and fast enough– sign me the hell up. Otherwise, no thank you.

This is how I’ve viewed CV for quite a while now.

Does anyone remember Corliss Williamson? I’ve seen CV filling that role but as a significant upgrade. He can play as a big 3, or if we go small, he can play the 4.

Obviously, it depends on what else is in Joe D’s plans, but if he can be acquired for ~6mil. per, I think we oughta go for it.

By the way, he’s no Twitter @CV31

I’m not a fan of Charlie V. If you look at his stats, he’s kinda a PF version of Iverson: high usage, low efficiency. If there is one thing Dave Berri has more or less proven, it’s that those types of players are generally overrated.

Here’s CV’s career stats:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/v/villach01.html

He’s been a surprisingly poor 3 point shooter, his career average being .327%, though last season he bumped it up to .345%, and even that isn’t particularly high. More worrisome is his TS% last year was .529%, which is way below the level of efficiency a PF should produce at.

Basically the only reason CV scored so many points is he took a ton of shots, his usage rate last year of 28.5% would have led the Pistons. But, with the Pistons “spread the ball around” system, I doubt he’d be allowed to take on that big a chunk of the offensive load, which would make him kinda pointless.

The other big reason not to want him is he’s a very poor defender. Here’s his on/off, plus/minus stats from last year:
http://www.82games.com/0809/08MIL12.HTM#onoff

Overall, he helped the Bucks offense, but he hurt their defense even more and they played better with him off the court.

Volume scorer and poor defender? I’m hoping we pass.

I’ll pass on Charlie V. I’d like to have Millsap or Boozer and according to ESPN, Boozer may not opt out (a supposedly divorce issue).

I think BG is smoking crack if he thinks he’s going to get 11M per. He’s got a guard in Chi who can drive & dish all day long to set him up. It’s already rumored that we won’t do a 13-15M per for what Boozer is supposedly looking for. So now you’re at 10-12M for Boozer if that’s the route we go. Paying Boozer say 10M and Gordon 8M doesn’t look so bad. Boozer is a two-time allstar and BG ?? I just can’t see Jod paying BG more than Boozer and Boozer being happy about it. If Boozer doesn’t opt out, Millsap starting at 8M per year, Gordon 8M and Gortat at 6.5M (1st year high and then declining in value so Orl & Jazz can’t match).

After that, you can trade Rip or Tay for extra parts, but I’d rather keep Rip, not sign BG and use that 8M on perhaps Lee. Sure, we’ve got 3 guys (Gortat, Lee & Millsap) which would mean one would be a very expensive reserve, but I figure that if 1 of the 3 don’t pan out and with declining contracts, we’re still covered and they are easier to move in a couple of years because of the contract.

If need be, I’d trade Tay to Clips for Kaman / Thorton mid season if things didn’t look like they were improving. At the end, the Bulls sign BG, they’ve got to move TT. Anybody interested in him? I think he settles our 4 question, but then we do need a bit more scoring punch from the 5 and that’s were Kaman comes in.

I will say that I’m glad Brown didn’t opt out. At 4M/per, there isn’t a better deal out there for someone without locking into a long-term contract.

Stuck/MFWB
Rip/AA
Tay/Daye/Swedish kid/Sharpe
Kwmae/Gortat
Millsap/Lee/Summers

Also, Jod said he sees all three picks making the roster this year, that’s why I have them there. I also read where Memphis is looking to sign a 4 as a priority. Lee/Millsap/Z-Bo (??)/CV is their list. We’re in a position that at worst, we’ll get good contracts or we’ll have money next year.

Mr. Boozer. Mr. Gordon. Meet Econ 101 (aka supply & demand).

Corliss was a banger, though. Charlie V is softer than Charmin and likes to shoot from outside. I’d rather have a banger than ANOTHER jump shooter. But at the same time, beggars can’t be choosers — we’re super thin up front and he’s probably better than anyone we have right now, and it sounds like he might be cheap. After the Iverson debacle, I have a hard time convincing myself that change is good now!

I, for one, am glad that Charmin is soft, Garrett. So if you meant that as a put-down, perhaps you need another analogy :)

Hmmm… after looking at Gabe’s stats (and his reference to Berri, who I tend to like), perhaps I’ve been wrong about CV.

Here is my analysis….

In a somewhat surprising move, the Bucks have let Charlie Villanueva become an unrestricted free agent. This comes on the heels of the Keith Langolis story on Pistons.com that suggested that Joe Dumars might end up pursuing Villanueva in free agency.

On the surface, this makes sense. Depending on who you believe, Boozer is seeking a $15 million a year deal. The Pistons have roughly $20 million to give out, and Dumars has been adamant that he wants to land two impact free agents. Signing Boozer for that much would take away that possibility.

I imagine there are 5 free agents that we will specifically look at. Ben Gordon, Villanueva, Hedo Turkoglu, Boozer and Paul Milsap are guys who will all get looks from Dumars. In this post, we are going to take a look at Villanueva.

First, lets provide a little background on Villanueva. He is 6’11" 232 and has been a well-known name in the world of basketball for awhile. He was one of the top recruits in the nation in high school before eventually signing with U Conn. After leaving early from U Conn, he was picked by Toronto with the 7th pick in the first round of the 2005 NBA draft. In his rookie year, he was a runner up for Rookie of the Year after averaging 13 points and 6 boards a game. That offseason he was traded to Milwaukee. In ’07 and ’08 he averaged roughly 12 points and 6 boards.

It was this past season where Villanueva had his best NBA season. In just 26.9 minutes a game, he averaged 16.7 points a game and nearly 7 boards a game. He also had a PER of 18.64 (15 is considered average, and 20 is at a near All Star level). So, lets go beyond the box score and dig deeper into his game…

Rebounding
According to 82games.com, Villanueva had a rebounding rate of 26.9, which put him at 30th in the league, and just ahead of Varejao and Pau Gasol. For comparisons sake, McDyess was in the top 10 in this ranking for the league with Dwight Howard obviously number one. Rasheed Wallace had a rating of 24.4. While that does not sound so bad, remember that there are 60 starting PF and C in the league. He ranked right in the middle. So, as a #2 rebounder on your team, he would be pretty good. But, if you are counting on him to be your best rebounder, then more than likely, that team would be greatly disappointed.

Passing
He had a 3.3 passer rating, which tied him with several players, including Pau Gasol. According to the media, Gasol is considered a good passing big man, but I never really saw that with Villanueva. I think a passing rating for a big man can be skewed somewhat just like a rebounding rate can be skewed for guards. I will remain neutral on this and say he is an average to slightly above average passing big man.

Shooting
He had a free throw percentage of nearly 84%, so this is a strong point of his game. He shot nearly 45 % from the field, and 35 % from 3 point land. He does have a good jump shot, and he can score the ball as evidenced by scoring nearly 17 points a game in just 27 minutes.

Shot selection
This is big in my mind. Rasheed Wallace took jump shots away from the basket 89% of the time last year. That is way, way too much. Villanueva, on the other hand, shot inside 36% of the time. He is not a traditional back-to-the-basket player, so he will float around a little bit on the perimeter. But, this is not too bad of a rate.

Defense
Ok, so he is a decent rebounder and passer, and a pretty good shooter with a somewhat acceptable shot selection for a big man with his style of game. Defensively? Meh. Playing at the center position, his opponent had a PER of 27.4. So, at all costs, we cannot let him play at center or he would be a complete mismatch. At PF, he is a lot better but still a below average defender. His opponent averaged a PER of 18.3 against him. As a PF, he averaged a PER of 20.7. So, he is a plus player even with that defense.

Other important info
It is interesting to note that Milwaukee’s best 5 man unit last year, by a substantial margin, was with Villanueva on the bench. That is something to consider. His Roland Rating (which takes into account how well the team performs when the player is off the court as opposed to when he is on the court) was +0.2. For comparisons sake, Rasheed had a Roland Rating of 0.0, and Iverson had a rating of +0.1 It should also be wise to point out that he draws fouls about 9% of his shots, or the same rate that Tayshaun Prince does. Finally, Villanueva has a very high usage rate of 26.0. That ranks 14th in the NBA. Other than Lou Williams of Philly and Will Bynum, the players above him are all #1 options on their teams. What does that tell you about Lou Williams, Bynum and Villanueva’s game? For a guy who is clearly not a #1 option or even a #2 option, he requires the ball too much to perform well imo.

Analysis
Villanueva might sign for the mid level exception for a contender. We are not a contender. So, we would have to pay him probably $7 to $8 million or so a year to land him, if not more. Looking at the numbers, he is a good #2 rebounder on a team (but we do not have a #1 rebounder if McDyess leaves), a good scorer who can play a hybrid position like Dumars apparently is leaning towards going to more. And, he appears to be a decent passing big man. There is more than meets the eye, though, with Villanueva. He is a below average defender who does not draw fouls at a rate you would like from a PF. Also, his team did not suffer when he was on the bench. Finally, his usage rate is dowright startling, and I have no idea how he and Bynum would exist on the same court.

Still, he is only going to be 25 next season and his natural talent is undeniable as he will probably be a 20 point a night scorer when he gets the minutes, and get you 8 boards a night. Assuming the price is not outrageous, we only play him at the PF spot, and we acquire a very good rebounder and defensive center to make up for his shortcomings defensively, then he could be an intriguing option going forward. To me, though, that is asking a lot and I am not sure that Villanueva is the answer.

The new “BS Report” is concerning the King of Pop and is GOLD. Just in case anybody cares.

And I like Villanueva, if only because he’s really young, can score, and fits the “discarded” Piston mold.

I’m warming to Charlie V. Who was the starting 4 for Milw last year? My only concern is his minutes. Playing that well (scoring/reb) in that amount of time says something about his D and the fact that Skiles was his coach.

I think if we can land him, we could help ourselves very well with a 5 with decent low post moves. Both could compliment each other very well. My fear is getting him and then getting Okur (looks like he’s opting out and Boozer not) and then we’re stuck with no rebounding. Shooters would be great, but in case of a miss we have no one underneath to grab a rebound.

Has anybody thought of playing Okur at the 4? He’s clearly not a prototypical C and more and more reminds me of Rasheed. He’d be dynamite next to Gortat or Kaman. Okur is basically a poorish-man’s Gasol anyhow, and look how LA’s “parade of bigs” worked out for them. Plus, I like the idea of having that much length in our frontcourt, especially if we sign Gordon and are consequently a little smallish in the backcourt.

brgulker: Charmin is nice and soft which is why Charlie V being even softer than that is a bad thing! So my analogy works! :D

@ Joel: +1 for Okur. Given his outside shot, the 5 would have plenty of opportunities and space in the paint.

The interesting part FWIW: If Okur can get 10M/per, shouldn’t Sheed get his 8M? Same game, better defender, whacked attitude, but I think sheed does have a point. Though I disagree.

NO, Charlie V is like rasheed but with no toughness

I’d rather we got the Michael Jordan of Turkey than CV.

Even with eyebrows, I veto any signage of Villahuevos.

Apparently, MCINLAFI

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4297296

Matt, pick up the red, blue, and white courtesy phone!

Another interesting bit from Chad Ford’s current chat:

Mully (Oaktwon)

Any word on the GS Suns Amare deal?
Chad Ford

Sounds like it’s dead right now because GS won’t include draft rights to Stephen Curry. Personally, I think the Pistons should make a run …

It blows my mind that names like Villanueva and Boozer are getting attention. Neither of these guys have really won in their careers and Villanueva has shown little improvement since his UConn days.

Paul Millsap deserves the attention (and money) that mediocre players like Boozer and Villanueva are getting. Plus, Millsap’s best years are ahead of him and he’s never been in a full-time starting position. He could average 18 and 11 if he were a starter for the Pistons, especially since he can score, but doesn’t demand the ball.

Forget Villanueva. He’s talented, but his “potential” still hasn’t been discovered. It seems like if he hasn’t already met his potential he might never do so.

@ Wyatt,

You may be right about CV, but you’re dead wrong about Boozer. The guy IS a proven winner; the only concern is his injury history, and perhaps the amount of money he is asking for.

I would be happy with any of the aforementioned players, we just need to sign SOME bigs for our frontcourt. Whether it be Villanueva, Boozer, Millsap, Okur, Gortat or even possibly trading for Chandler, Kaman, Lee, Amare, etc…I don’t care what combination we get just as long as we spend our money and not sit on it. The time for change is now, which is evident by the Curry firing.

And maybe attitude