NBA Finals Game 3 4 open thread

I’m watching the Cubs.

Is anyone here interested in Hedo?

Hedo Turkowho?

God, I hate Luke Walton.

Not enough to stalk him, however.

God, I hate the Lakers. I hope they loses the Finals.

Yeah Hedo… you know, the small forward who doesn’t disappear in crucial playoff games like a certain Prince.

lol Rip playing with nun chucks in China.

I hope Orlando can win.

Cubs win!

Yuck. Joe Crawford is officiating? (As I’m typing this he blows a call.)

Since when did every big man in the entire league forget how to set a proper screen? I thought you weren’t allowed to stick your hips out or twist your body into the defending PG to block his path? And yet it happens by Dwight and Pau on almost every single offensive set.

…and Joey Crawford blows another call. That was a clean block by Howard. Luckily Kobe missed another FT.

It was nice of Joey Crawford to make the call from half court even though the baseline ref two feet away from the play knew it was clean and rightfully didn’t call anything.

Orlando wins!!! I just found out cuz I fell asleep after work and just woke up about an hour ago. Looked like a good game. This should be a good series. 2 evenly matched teams…should go the distance, or at the very least 6.

As for Hedo, I like the guy, I just don’t know if I want to pay a guy on the wrong side of 30 as much as he wants to get paid. But if we can get him at a decent price for a decent amount of years, then I wouldn’t mind it so much. Too bad Artest had to fight the city of Detroit because I would like him a lot more, even though he is pushing 30 as well (29).

I’m very glad Orlando won, but it’s weird that the gamee was that close, with Orlando setting first half and total game finals records for shooting percentage.

And am I the only guy who would like to figure out a way to get Pietrus on the Pistons?

@Toledo Joe

We could have signed him last summer, just like the Magic did. Instead, we got Kwame Brown and Fabio… though I do like both those guys. Still, he might be the exact backup for Tayshaun we’ve always needed— athletic, strong, great finisher, 3-pt shooter, great one-on-one defender, etc. Plus he can play the 2 occasionally. GREAT role-player piece.

And Fuck the Cubs. Worst fans in baseball (yes, that includes Boston). I hope they lose forever just so I can revel in the disappointment of so many douchebags every fall.

@Toledo Joe

We could have just signed him as an UFA last off-season like the Magic did. Instead we have Kwame and Fabio… I actually like both those guys though. But Pietrus would’ve been exactly the backup SF we’ve always wanted— athletic, shooter, great finisher, great on-ball defender, can play the 2 in spots… we probably would’ve won at least one more championship with this guy spelling Tayshaun.

And fuck the Cubs. Most obnoxious fans in all of baseball (yes, even worse than Boston). I hope they lose for another 100 years, just so I can revel in the extreme disappointment of so many douchebags every fall.

Joel, I hope you get cancer. Or already have it. How’s that for obnoxious? Haha… I kid, I kid.

That’s not funny, TDP. I just had a testicle removed. Typical Cubs fan.

jk lol omg! ;)

KronikJose-

Artest is largely a pipedream in my opinion, the Rockets got deeper into the playoffs with that guy than in all the McGrady years, I can’t see them letting Artest go. McGrady, sure. Artest? No.

ya i know man, but doesn’t it just sound and feel good to say that artest would be our SF? He can play LOCK DOWN D and he has a decent offensive skill set. I know it will never happen, that’s why in my “new plan” i said you can just replace him with Marvin Williams because I think Marvin could be had for the same contract (4yrs/$30 mil).

@Kronik:
I think Marvin could be had for the same contract (4yrs/$30 mil).

Marvin Williams will get at least $7 million / year this summer. I’ve beat the hell out of the Marvin Williams drum here on DBB but the issue is that it’ll take at least $7 to outbid Atlanta for the young man. It’d be stupid to pay that kind of money unless we’re certain we can move Tay.

I would love to have Artest on our squad, but at his age he’s as interested in contention than he is in money— of those Detroit can only guarantee one. Houston can offer him a moderate chance at both, otherwise he’s likely going to begin the ring-chase-shuffle starting next season. While Artest makes sense for Detroit, Detroit doesn’t make sense for Artest.

Petey
Jun 10th, 2009 at 9:45 am
@Toledo Joe

We could have signed him last summer, just like the Magic did. Instead, we got Kwame Brown and Fabio… though I do like both those guys. Still, he might be the exact backup for Tayshaun we’ve always needed– athletic, strong, great finisher, 3-pt shooter, great one-on-one defender, etc. Plus he can play the 2 occasionally. GREAT role-player piece.

And Fuck the Cubs. Worst fans in baseball (yes, that includes Boston). I hope they lose forever just so I can revel in the disappointment of so many douchebags every fall.

Joel
Jun 10th, 2009 at 10:17 am
@Toledo Joe

We could have just signed him as an UFA last off-season like the Magic did. Instead we have Kwame and Fabio… I actually like both those guys though. But Pietrus would’ve been exactly the backup SF we’ve always wanted– athletic, shooter, great finisher, great on-ball defender, can play the 2 in spots… we probably would’ve won at least one more championship with this guy spelling Tayshaun.

And fuck the Cubs. Most obnoxious fans in all of baseball (yes, even worse than Boston). I hope they lose for another 100 years, just so I can revel in the extreme disappointment of so many douchebags every fall.

WTF……Am I the only one that finds this disturbing?

I’m pretty sure Pietrus wanted to go somewhere he could start, which he was supposed to in Orlando before getting hurt for much of the year and losing his job to a rookie drafted 22nd overall. Unless Detroit offered substantially more money to compensate for being pigeonholed as a career backup, they probably never had a chance.

If Hedo leaves as a FA, I imagine MP will regain that starting job, though in my eyes he’s almost the perfect 6th man — a swingman who can play two positions, hit the open three, drive the lane and play hard defense.

Out of curiousity, what would you pay Will Bynum? I’m thinking you offer him 7mil/3yrs. That would pay him more than Afflalo and less than Stuckey. And it would be more than whoever the Pistons get at #15. I think that’s fair.

@Colin

me too

@Joel,

I’ve got sci fi scenarios running through my head. Is Petey more powerful than we imagined? I’m questioning everything. Does DBB even exist or is it just a Matrixesque playground created by our benevolent overlord Petey?

I don’t know how much credence I would give to this, but Piston Powered has an article up arguing that Joe targets players with long wing spans. Feldman then breaks those players down by position. Apparently there are no Centers with long wing spans aside from Thabeet.

This link should work.

Well….I guess I don’t know what I’m doing. It’s at www.pistonpowered.com.

On a lighter note…

http://www.pistonpowered.com/2009/06/rumors-that-arent-true/comment-page-1/#comment-714

Gotta respect that dedication.

@Matt Watson:
If Hedo leaves as a FA, I imagine MP will regain that starting job, though in my eyes he’s almost the perfect 6th man — a swingman who can play two positions, hit the open three, drive the lane and play hard defense.

Hey, if they think I’m qualified…

Does anyone think it’s possible that Rasheed won’t sign anywhere in the off-season and could possibly just leech on to a contender in the spring?

It’s a few years removed, but this still makes me die inside laugh.

(die inside)*

Why aren’t we looking at signing this beast?

TDP: That’s Amir-level athleticism right there.

And Roberto Duenas-level hair.

i would think joe likes guys with long wingspans because guys with significant wingspans are usually better defenders. see tay and his 7-whatever wingspan. i’m sure if the draft happened a month ago when tyreke evans and his sick 6’11" wingspan was available in the teens, joe would have had a big smile on his face.

earl clark, please.

Man, Orlando just gave that game away.

That’s gotta hurt. Up 5 with a minute and a half left.

i wish we just had an open thread for draft talk.

i hope the ’stons are looking hard at dionte christmas in the 2nd. only the 4th player ever to go over 2000 pts in a-10 history. only player to lead the a-10 in scoring three different seasons. all of his size numbers are comparable to the top 5 sgs in the draft (harden, williams, ellington.) he excels at moving without the ball and using screens. he would be a great pick with our last 2nd rounder.

For you, JackDutch, my post from the T-Will thread:

I really like Danny Green with one of our second-rounders. He’s a senior, an experienced guy, can shoot the 3, gets a ton of steals (1.8 per last season) and a ton of blocks for a guy his size (6′6″, 1.3 bpg). In all honesty, he matches up favorably and almost superior to T-Will, a potential lottery guy.

Check the 2009 stats:

Green: 27 mpg, 13.1 ppg, 2.7 apg, 4.7 rpg, 1.3 bpg, 1.8 spg, 47% fg, 42% 3pt/fg

Williams: 34 mpg, 12.7, 5apg, 8.6 rpg, .8 bpg, 2.3 spg, 43% fg, 39% 3pt/fg

Obviously Williams’ assists and rebounds are much better than Green’s, but take this into account: Williams played 7 minutes per game more than Green, didn’t have a point guard (he played point forward a ton) and didn’t have a dominant big man (Earl Clark is a taller clone of T-Will). He HAD to put up those type of numbers. Green, on the other hand, played with one of the top distributing PG’s in the nation (Lawson) and one of the best post guys in college history (Hansbrough), and still managed to average 3 assists and 5 boards per game, in only 27 minutes. Give him another 7 minutes a game and I bet he has at least as many steals, OVER 2 blocks a game (ridiculous at 6′6″), closer to like 7 boards and maybe ~4 assists to go along with closer to 16+ points.

If there’s one thing the last few drafts have burned into my consciousness, it’s that people absolutely undervalue upperclassmen coming out of the draft. You think the Bulls are a little pissed about taking Tyrus Thomas over Brandon Roy nowadays? If we can get a polished, mature all-around guy like Danny Green in the second round, I say we have to go for it. Not to mention it gives us a more focused outlook for the #15 since we can eliminate "athletic swingman" from the proceedings, and can focus in on bigs (Blair, Hansbrough, Mullens, Clark) or a lights out pass-first PG (Flynn, Teague, Jennings, Maynor [love this kid; another senior], Lawson).

Now, maybe we can get some action going on this dead ass DBB afternoon…

Joel:

Good post, I like Danny Green too. I think there’s a good chance he’ll help whatever team drafts him, and I’d be cool with getting him in the 2nd round. Of the bigs the only one I really love is Blair. I would be okay with Clark or Hansbrough, but if the choice is one of them or Lawson (he’s definitely my favorite of the PG’s who’ll still be available when we pick), I’d rather have Lawson.

Generally, one thing to keep in mind when comparing stats of players from UNC to kids from other schools is UNC plays at one of the fastest paces of any major college team. http://www.draftexpress.com/ has pace adjusted individual number, and it’s not a huge difference, but there is a slight bump in UNC’s players offensive stats because of it (though I still like Lawson a lot, and think Green/Hansbrough will be useful rotation players).

i definitely would take danny green. seems like a glue guy and he’s obviously a strong defender with good length. which we can never have enough of on the wing. especially since tayshaun’s weariness is becoming more and more evident.

i gotta say at 15, i would love blair, but i don’t think he falls that far. i think we’ll obviously have a shot at lawson and hansbrough, and 50/50 on clark. i think i’m more into a year-improved bynum than rolling the dice on a rookie pg, when our depth in the frontcourt is so questionable. unfortunately this is a draft thin in that department. even so, i’m not so sure about hansbrough. in that case i’d probably go with lawson.

in general, i think this draft is full of players who’ve proven themselves over and over in college and still can’t seem to get the respect they deserve. lawson, hansbrough, green, sam young, dionte christmas. a couple of those guys are going to make nba gms look like idiots. just hoping joe d. isn’t one of them.

i like some of the european forwards. that jerebko kid is getting rave reviews, but i like the sound of that vlad dasic kid too. (isn’t vlad dasic a pickle?) i would assume at least one of those 2nd rounders are going to be a euro left to cook a little more overseas.

I have been on the danny green bandwagon for a couple months now. Over on the Posting Up pistons network we have been talking about him for a while now. I liked Dionte Christmas in college and wondered why he was considered so low of a draft pick. The kid has crazy skills. I would love for us to draft Hansbrough(15), Green(35), Christmas(39), and Nando De Colo(44). I think those guys would be good project players. Both Green and Christmas can play the SG and SF spots so they are interchangeable kind of guys. De Colo is a silky smooth PG that could possibly play both guard spots. Here’s what they said about him at the Reebok Eurocamp:

“De Colo on the other hand was absolutely sensational, showing incredible creativity and court vision with a series of highlight reel caliber passes. In one very telling sequence, he came up with a deflection and then in one single motion jumped in the air and flicked the ball backwards 40 feet down the court to a wide open teammate running in stride for an easy layup. What’s scary is that that might not even have been his most impressive assist. He also made a number of pull-up jumpers from all over the floor, while showing his ability to change speeds and utilize terrific hesitation moves creating his own shot and getting to the rim. What this game didn’t tell us was how well he would fare against the bigger and longer athletes the NBA is known for, or whether he’s capable of defending his position at the next level. Still, it was hard not to come away impressed by just how skilled and talented he is, and there is no question that he helped his draft stock today.”

He sounds good to me. I would just like those players to be drafted because it would give us yound rookies behind a lot of positions. Other second round possibilities I wouldn’t mind incluse: Heytvelt(PF, Gonzaga), Pendergraph(PF, ASU), Toney Douglas(PG/SG, FSU), Taj Gibson(PF, USC), Jodie Meeks(SG, Kentucky), Alade Aminu(PF, GT), and Victor Claver (PF, Parmesa Valencia). I wouldn’t be opposed to drafting any of these guys. I just hate it when a team drafts someone and you’re like, “huh?”. A lot of these players I watched play college ball and a lot of the euro guys I did some research on so I like them as well. It’s going to be a fun couple of months coming up.

Sorry about the typos, i haven’t had a chance to twist one up yet.

I don’t know much about college hoops, so forgive my ignorance: but is dionte christmas any relation to lloyd?

LOL, ya and his best friend is Harry and they are looking for Mary Samsonite to return her briefcase.

a briefcase full of IOU’s

@KRONIK:
Just watch out for the gas men!

Dear Mike Dunleavy,

I’ll trade you my parrot Petey and the #15 pick for your #1 pick.

Sincerely,

Onions

@shinons:
I’ve always read your name out aloud as “Shi-Knowns”. So, shinons, I cosign on your plan.

I have always said it as “shine-ons”, but either way i like that plan too! Hell, they can have my fish The Big O too! But if they ask for my dog bishop then thats where I draw the line.

@KRONIK:
Hell, they can have my fish The Big O too! But if they ask for my dog bishop then thats where I draw the line.
Don’t park on the grass, money. Pass the peas and the lighter.

I read it as Shin-yuns for some reason.

At 15, I like Jeff Teague of the ones that will likely be available. I’m not crazy about Lawson. He didn’t wow me with explosiveness the times I saw him play. I can’t see him ever being more effective than MFWB.

There will be someone good available when the Pistons pick in the second round. I wouldn’t be surprised if Darren Collison dropped. Dionte Christmas is a good scorer. Taj Gibson is worth a look. Nando de Colo. Damion James.

Jeff Pendergraph is a solid guy to have as your sixth big man in a five big man rotation.

I also think the Pistons should take Nick Calathes to get his rights too since he would have probably gone at the end of the first had he not signed in Greece.

Did any of you read Hollinger’s ranking of NBA franchises all time? Go to ESPN.com and prepare to get pissed…

The Charlotte Observer has said Larry Brown has hinted at trading the #12 pick (or more) to upgrade at PF, SG and PG. Just a thought, but would it be worth it to move up a little in the draft? Rasheed would probably play there, playing for “Pounds” again – maybe (maybe) work a sign-and-trade? For Gerald Wallace?

I don’t know, I like the options at #12 more so than those at #15.

@TDP:
Sign-and-trade Rasheed for Gerald Wallace and #12 for DeJuan Blair?

Sign-and-trade me the fuckup. Cosign, brosign. (as rare as sign-and-trades usually are)

╘ PASS THE DUTCHIE TO THE LEFT HAND SIDE ╘

Seriously though, I’m not sure if Charlotte would do a sign and trade for Sheed if they can just sign him and AI outright. If they trade it will probably be for more lower picks or a player already under contract with someone. Here’s hoping right with you though buddy!

Oh, I like calathes too from florida, I forgot about drafting him just to have his rights. He’s a big guard that could possibly play both guard spots. The dude averaged like 17 points and 6 assists a game at a good florida school. I like him and Nando De Colo if we don’t draft a PG with the 15 pick. Oh, and since Joe likes guys with long wingspans, don’t be surprised if we get Alade Aminu from Georgia Tech. He’s a 6’10" PF with a 7’3" wingspan. He was highly sought after out of high school and many people thought he was just not being utilized correctly at GT. I wouldn’t mind taking him with one of our second rounders.

QD:

RE: Lawson vs. Teague, I think Teague has a chance to be a very good NBA player, but I think he also duplicates MFWB’s strengths (and weaknesses) more than Lawson does. Teague is a super-quick, mini-scorer, his game’s based on slashing to the rim and drawing fouls, and he’s shown he can be a pesky defender, but Teague has NOT shown the ability to be a top-notch, pass-first PG, and Lawson has.

I prefer Lawson because he brings fundamentally different things to the table than MFWB or Stuckey (or Teague). Lawson has never had worse than a 2.36:1 assist/TO ratio (he’s had as high as 3.48:1 for a season), his freshman year he averaged 0.76 assists for every field goal attempt he took(!), statistically he’s one of the best college PG’s in recent memory (for what it’s worth, his “pure point rating” was off the charts at 8.19 for last season).

With MFWB about to get a lot more minutes next season I don’t think we need another mini-scoring/slashing guard coming off the bench, which is why I’m not sure about how good of a fit we’d be for Teague. Because MFWB and Stuck are the only PG’s currently on the roster, to give teams different looks I think it would make sense to pick up a pass-first PG to back up both of them, and IMO there’s a good chance Lawson could fit well in that role.

Here’s both of their college stats:
Teague: http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Jeff-Teague-5293/stats/
Lawson: http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Ty-Lawson-485/stats/

I completely agree that if Calathes is available in the 2nd round we should grab him. Unfortunately, the guys at draftexpress have said that Calathes going to Europe has actually increased the chances of him getting drafted somewhere in the 20’s of the 1st round, as teams that don’t want to spend any money can pick him and not pay a penny for at least a couple years. I hope it’s not true, he’s one of my absolute favorite players from this draft class.

I’d offer the Clippers Allen Iverson’s phone number and Michael Curry for the #1 pick.

They may bite

I know a sign-and-trade involving Rasheed is far-fetched, but I don’t think Rasheed is as greedy as people have been making him out to be. He’s a loyal guy and he’s got love for LB. It’d be the perfect sitch for him to okay, if there were one.

I’d just love to find a way to get Gerald Wallace on my team. Swapping picks would be schweet.

╘ PASS THE DUTCHIE TO THE LEFT HAND SIDE ╘

How does it feel when you got no food?

@Garrett

I’ve also always read it as Shin-yuns. Like Fun-Yuns, only shinnier.

@MF SkyMoney:
They may bite

Well, MDIAFI… crossing fingers

I’ll just say I was in LA for a conference (well, technically, Long Beach) the night of game 4, and I was watching in a bar trying to contain my glee when Orlando went up 5 late and then trying to disguise my disappointment when the Magic choked the game away.

And nothing here about the Wings? Sad, sad.

Re: Sheed sign and trade – If anyone thinks Sheed is worth more than the MLE for the next three years, we’ve got a real shot at pulling of a sign and trade because of the lack of cap space. That’s a big if though.

Charlotte probably wouldn’t be a likely destination because they’re so broke they can’t even run summer league and they made the QO to Felton, so they’re probably not wanting to spend too much on a backup big man.

And as to my name, I read it “Shin-ins.” But I’m not the pronunciation police.

A sign and trade with Sheed will not happen.

Now that that’s over with, here’s a list of guys I wouldn’t mind seeing us get in the second round:

Danny Green
Dionte Christmas
Toney Douglas
Nando De Colo
Alade Aminu
Taj Gibson
Jodie Meeks
Grievis Vasquez

There are some other players I wouldn’t mind having, but I would definitely like to have these guys. If Nick Calathes falls to the second round he would be included in this list too.

Conrats LA. But when did Phil Jackson morph into Harold Ramis?

Phil or Harold? YOU DECIDE.

http://tinyurl.com/n3lkon

LOL, I also think it’s funny that he dates Jeanie Buss.

Ya, the Lakers deserved to win – they had the best team. I CONGRATULATE THEM. Upon saying that…I have a confession to make. I think, I finally believe, that Phil Jackson is a decent coach. I used to be the biggest doubter of him, since we’re being honest here. I used to say, “He had Michael and Pippen, and Kobe and Shaq. I mean, who the hell CAN’T win with that?” I used to think that the triangle offense was junk and that the only reason he got by was because he had two superstars AT ALL TIMES. I don’t think I can say that now. People forget that the Lakers were in the lottery in ‘06, when they drafted Bynum at 10. Experts were blasting them for “reaching” with that pick when there were so many other “better” players available at the time. Low and behold, the Lakers got it right. Everything just seemingly went right for them in their run at the title. However, a lot of things have to go right for ANY team if it wants to make a run at the title. They drafted Bynum as I mentioned previously, but they also took a chance on Ariza when other teams discarded him, and now they have a budding young star. They even got a hand-out, er,I mean trade, that allowed them to get their greasy, little hands on Pau Gasol, the player that they had hoped Lamar Odom would be(Jordan’s Pippen and Kobe’s Shaq – and yes Kobe gets first billing). Without that, I don’t think a championship this early would have been possible. But, to the Lakers’ credit, they found a way to get it done(Wow, even while enjoying my crow, it seems that doubts may still linger). Pau is a very good player, no doubt, but he is no Pippen or Shaq. People won’t be talking about Pau Gasol 20 years from now like they will be talking about Shaq and Pippen. So I don’t think I can still say he can only do it with two, or even three or four, superstars. So even though I am now willing to offer Phil Jackson my respect, I still think he has a long way to go if he wants to be considered better than Auerbach, Wooden, and Daly, in my mind. However, Phil now at least has a chance, whereas before, I wouldn’t have even considered him a decent coach. The Lakers are the best team and they will undoubtedly be the team to beat next year, but I sure can tell them one thing – THEY BETTER WATCH OUT FOR DETROIT BITCHES!!!

they better watch out for detroit next year?

Any post longer than 3-4 lines is auto-iggied.

We should institute a Twitter rule.

I didn’t want LA to win, because I dislike Kobe and they made a ridiculous deal to get Gasol. Also, I had come to like Orlando. Still, even though the Magic could/should have won two games they lost, LA seemed like the better team. If nothing else, they peaked at the right time. The Lakers in the Finals didn’t look like the team that needed seven games to beat a banged-up Rockets squad, or even the Lakers of the first four games against Denver. But beginning with Game 5 of the Nuggets series, they turned it on or found something.

So, now what are we going to talk about??

I went into the finals wanting Orlando to win, but after a few bone head mistakes and some choke jobs, I found myself rooting for the Lakers. By the end of the last game, I was glad they won, strangely enough.

For people that like talking/reading about the draft, Ed Weiland of hoopsanalyst.com has just started his annual draft breakdown (he does each position separately), IMO it’s easily the best in-depth analysis of individual prospects anywhere.

This year he started with PG’s:
http://www.hoopsanalyst.com/0809ew7.htm

@ KronJ: I definitely would like to see us pick up Gibson. He’s a hair over 6’10" in shoes, has a 7+ ft wingspan and from watching him at SC for 3 years, doesn’t take a nite off rebounding and will do the “dirty work” for us.

@Gabe

Love that guy’s work. He makes the same argument for Ty Lawson’s clear superiority over the rest of this class that I do. Mainly, I think scouts have an anti-upperclassmen bias. Just look at the ‘05 draft, where Brandon Roy gets picked behind such underclassmen-freaks as Ty Thomas, though was a clearly superior and already-proven commodity. Lawson has been eating college basketball’s best PG’s for lunch the last three years, on the highest stage, and at a statistical clip and efficiency that is lightyears beyond what anybody in the draft if putting up. I’d take him over Rubio. 47% from 3? 53% overall? 1.7 pts/shot—> that’s HISTORICALLY good. His elite assist/TO ratio is also historically good. He basically does everything you want your PG to do, at an elite statistical level to boot— he’s incredibly efficient with the ball, is “pass-first” with great IQ, court vision, and elite passing skills, and when his team needs him to score, he scores at an INCREDIBLY efficient rate. Sound like a PG we used have around here? Not to mention he broke the Final Four record for steals in a game.

I think even more so that DuJuan Blair and Hansbrough, Lawson is an absolute CAN’T MISS prospect at #15 and could give us a potential HOF-career type PG— the two guys with the closest career trajectories based on their college statistics (from hoopsanalyst.com) are Mark Jackson and John Stockton. If we pass on this guy for some athletic choad like Johnny Flynn or Jrue Holliday, I’m going to murder someone. You just can’t pass on a guy who is so clearly ready to be a difference-maker on the biggest stage.

And we need Danny Green in the early second round, which I’ve already given my argument for in another thread (basically a better scoring/shot blocking Terrence Williams without the lottery pricetag).

It’s gonna be a Tar Heel draft. I can feel it.

OMGZ DETROYT BEET DA LAKERZ N DA REGOOLUR SEEZUN WIF BAY-I AZ DA POINT GUARDD!!!!!!!!!!!!

DETROYT SHOOD B CHAMPEEYUNS!!

OMGZ BAY-I IZ DA BESS EVARRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

/Petey’d
/LawyerBoy’d
/david stern’d
/thank god the season’s over now I can type posts like this and I won’t have to clarify who I’m mocking, you’ll know it’s MCIAFI
/good riddance AI
/Charlotte? LOL

Joel,

Danny Green? really?

ok, but only if we get points for the stupid dance he does on the sidelines otherwise, pass.

@Joel:
re: Ty Lawson

I’m game, sign me up. Nice thing is, since we’ve got Bynum and Stuckey working on the point, if Lawson turns out the way you think he can after year 1, we can move either Stuck or Bynum next summer. I wouldn’t move either unless we had a sure-fire stud at the point in Lawson, but the nice thing is— if Stuck and Bynum’s stocks are high now, they’ll be higher next summer (plus, Stuck’s contract will be expiring going into 2010-11).

If Blair falls, it’ll be tough not to grab him, but Lawson looks pretty unreal… albeit undersized.

Oh, and I hope beyond hope that Ricky Rubio never plays in the NBA. I’ve been sick of hearing mini-menudo’s name since last summer.

Kobe’s Finals MVP shits on LeBron’s season MVP.

I’m tired of the Menrubio talk as well.

Kobe’s a disgusting human being, but nobody in the game deserves the success he’s achieved more than he does. Basketball-wise, better than anyone else on the court, I think.

@Boney

I don’t give a shit if whips out his dick and mushroom-taps everyone in the front row after a basket— numbers don’t lie, and Danny Green per minute is a much better scorer, 3pt shooter, shot blocker, and at least comparable rebounder and assist-giver than Terrence Williams, who is exactly the same size and is somehow a lottery pick while Danny Green is a second-rounder. That to me is a pretty easy second-round pick to make.

I don’t really get the concern with Lawson’s size. He’s thick and solid, which will let him handle himself in the post better than a guy who might have an extra inch or two on him but is more lean – like Conley or Augustin. I definitely agree with Joel that he’s pretty much a can’t miss pick and I’d take him over Rubio too. If he ends up with Philly or Atlanta, that’ll just be scary.

Bill Laimbeer is expected to resign as the head coach of the WNBA defending champion Shock this afternoon following an immensely successful 6 1/2-year run.
Advertisement

It is believed that Laimbeer’s long-term aspiration is to become an NBA head coach.

TRADE MCIAFI NOW.

@MP

“If Blair falls, it’ll be tough not to grab him, but Lawson looks pretty unreal… albeit undersized.”

I’m with you on the Blair thing— he’s just too good at something that is a dire need for us (rebounding). Plus, he’s just got that “man/monster” quality that we’ve been lacking down low since Ben left.

Lawson, however “undersized” he may be, is exactly .5" shorter than Chris Paul (per combine measurements for both) in both socks and shoes, and we’ve all seen how dominant Chris Paul can be in this league. Lawson to me is like MFWB but a better passer, less turn-over prone, and already with a high-level 3pt shot. If we draft him, you’re absolutely right— he’s going to make either MFWB or Stuck completely expendable… that is unless he and Stuck hit it off gloriously and then we can run old-man Rip out of town.

I came back here when I heard about Laimbeer an hour ago. At least throw the guy on the coaching squad in some capacity. There’s hardly a bigger advocate of Detroit Pistons basketball that I can think of.

@Joel:
re: [Lawson] and Stuck hitting it off gloriously.

That is likely the only condition in which I’d be okay with Stuckey at the 2. Lawson’s range would help Stuck’s weaknesses from three. We could keep Bynum as a backup and move Rip in that case, you’re right.

QD would probably love your idea, where you at MFQD?

I say we draft a gigantic monster for down low and Stuckey just shoots 10 bajillion 3 pointers this summer. Improving your jump shot over a season or two is absolutely, totally possible. Just ask Tony Parker.

Joel:

Totally agree with all your posts. Lawson is one of my very favorite players in this draft and he’s the best of the players that are fairly certain to be available when we pick. But, if Blair is still on the board we basically have to take him. He fits a HUGE need perfectly.

I’ve said it a couple times, but if Blair’s available and we still pass on him (or Lawson) for a guy like BJ Mullens, and Keith Langlois writes something along the lines of, “the Pistons thought Blair was too similar to Maxiell… and Lawson was too similar to Bynum…” my faith in Joe D will be seriously shaken.

Unfortunately the opinions on Tyreke Evans have started to come more into line with sanity/reality and he’s no longer ridiculously underrated, but he’s still the one guy who I would love for the Pistons to trade into the top 5 to try and grab (especially if we can get him with Washington’s pick, which they are said to be willing to give up for cap relief). He has a great mixture of size/length/skill and college production. IMO, he’s one of the few players in this draft with true superstar potential.

“I say we draft a gigantic monster for down low and Stuckey just shoots 10 bajillion 3 pointers this summer.”

Hey, it’s the Orlando Magic offense (OK, they have more than one person shooting threes)!

@Gabe:
Rumors are growing today that Boston is considering trading Ray Allen and/or Rajon Rondo for pick 2-5 so they can snatch up Tyreke Evans.

http://www2.nesn.com/boston-celtics/2009/06/15/ainge-celtics-lusting-after-tyreke-evans/

I think trading Rajon Rondo is nothing short of moronic, why give up your best player from your most recent season? A bird in hand is better than two in the bush…

it would be the height of foolishness for boston to trade rondo, he has really come into his own as a point guard in this last season and especially in the playoffs. i can’t stand him and wish some huge center would just crush him, but his game is pretty nice. some more work on his shot in the off season so he doesn’t just throw up floaters all the time and he will be a top-ten point guard. i hate him though.

I’d trade our entire starting backcourt for Rajon Rondo right now. I hope to God that Boston pulls off that knuckle-head of a deal. He’s Jason Kidd with Derek Rose’s athleticism. It’s shit-your-pants-scary that he’s only 23.

Rondo is a top-10 PG right now. He can’t shoot but can do everything else you’d want from a point guard.

When I look at Tyreke Evans, I can’t help but see “Kerry Kittles” written all over him. I would love to see Boston decide that a team built around Tyreke Kittles, Perkins, and Glenn Davis was a good idea.

I’ve said it a couple times, but if Blair’s available and we still pass on him (or Lawson) for a guy like BJ Mullens, and Keith Langlois writes something along the lines of, "the Pistons thought Blair was too similar to Maxiell… and Lawson was too similar to Bynum…" my faith in Joe D will be seriously shaken.

Cosigned.

@ TDP: I will try to keep my posts to fewer than 4 lines so you are able to absorb everything that you’re reading.

@ Boston trading Rondo: How about we trade for the #5 pick from Washington and then trade that pick to Boston for Rondo?

@ MarkButters: Ya Taj Gibson would be a nice pick for us. His game kind of reminds me of Tyrus Thomas with room to grow. Another big guy in the second round I wouldn’t mind taking a flier on would be Alade Aminu. The guy is 6’10" with a 7’3" wingspan. He was highly touted coming out of high school and many believe that he was not utilized correctly in college.

Sorry TDP, I promise I will try from now on.

Tyreke Evans = Jerry Stackhouse 2.0

I also do agree with Lawson. I have said all along that I would like the Pistons to draft either him or Maynor if they go PG with the 15 pick. Joe wants to draft a PG that he can rotate with Stuckey and Bynum so I think he will try and go after a big guard(most likely Maynor) if he takes one at 15. However, the more I think about it, the more I really hope they just go after the “best available” player in the draft at 15. If they do that, then they can fill needs with their 3 picks in the second round. There are a LOT of good players projected to go in the second round. For example if we wait to draft a PG in the second round, we could draft Grievis Vasquez, Toney Douglas, Nando De Colo, or even Nick Calathes(if he falls to the second). If we want a wing player we could draft Danny Green, Jodie Meeks, Dionte Christmas, or maybe even DaJuan Summers if he thinks he can play the 3 at the next level(right now he’s more of an undersized 4, much like DeJuan Blair). If we want to draft a big we could go after Taj Gibson, Alade Aminu, or maybe even Josh Heytvelt(I’m not really sold on him but he’s a capable big). I’m just saying that there’s good players to be had in the second round so if we just get the best player available at 15 we should be in pretty good shape.

@KRONIKjose

Trading for the #5 to use as bait for Rondo is actually a really good/devious idea. Problem is, he makes Stuckey obsolete unless he (Stuck) can develop a 3-pt/jumpshot game to go with his slashing, because Rondo is already a better slasher, distributor, defender, rebounder than Stuck is at the same position. Maybe a 3-way trade?

Tyreke Evans = Jerry Stackhouse 2.0

So does that mean he’s twice as good, or just the second coming? I like Tyreke Evans I just know that the Pistons will not have a shot at getting him. That is, unless, the rumors about washington wanting to trade the 5 pick are true, then maybe we would have a shot if we traded for the 5 pick, but I don’t see that happening.

@ Joel: Sorry man but I don’t see how us having Rondo and Stuck on the same team is a problem. Well, my mind sees the problem but my heart doesn’t. Having 2 PG’s capable of breaking their defender down at the blink of an eye is awesome. He could be the third PG that Joe wanted to get this offseason. Then we would have him, Stuck, and Bynum for 1 year and once this year is done, we could easily trade one of them or just let MFWB walk with his expiring contract. Having all 3 of those PG’s would be a luxury a lot of teams would like to have. That said, I don’t think the celtics would trade Rondo to an eastern conference team nor do I think Joe would trade for Rondo unless he knew he had a deal in place for Stuck or Bynum.

@ Joel

“I don’t give a shit if whips out his dick and mushroom-taps everyone in the front row after a basket”

I’d pay money to see this, once. Let’s see if we can make that happen ok?

@KRONIK:
I don’t see how us having Rondo and Stuck on the same team is a problem.

No outside shooting. Hell, no mid-range game. Without a perimeter threat, defenders can sink in the lane and prevent guards from driving. It’s a stretched offense that makes a slashing guard able to get to the whole. With Rondo, Stuckey, Prince and whoever the hell we have at the 4 and 5 come November, we’ll be a terribly easy team to defend. It was already a big problem for us this year, and what you’re suggesting would essentially make us the 76ers, but worse.

or just let MFWB walk with his expiring contract.

If that happens, I will fight Joe D with knives. Letting Bynum walk would be taking the ONLY positive about our last season and dumping all over it. Even if Rondo were here, that’d be nothing short of foolish. Rondo would make Stuckey expendable, not MFWB.

Stackhouse, Kittles, whoever. Regardless, we’re talking about 40 percent shooters. And both of those guys shot better than 27 percent on 3 pointers in college. I’ll abstain from the Evans bandwagon (even though it really doesn’t matter since it’s very unlikely we’d have the chance to draft him).

Re Rondo, forgive the shouting, but WE DON’T NEED NEW/MORE GUARDS, WE NEED NEW/MORE BIGS.

This made me laugh:

"Austin Daye vs. Omri Casspi turned into a real wrestling match. Casspi just manhandled Daye, really threw him around. It was a bit disappointing to see how little Daye was able to compete from a strength perspective—Casspi is a kind of a skinny guy himself. At one point Casspi cut Daye’s lip open—he had to go to hospital for stitches. The Nets should have done a better job of getting someone to call fouls. Casspi was fouling the hell out of Daye. Some of the guys were looking at each other like ‘what are we watching here?’

Casspi was impressive, just like he’s been everywhere he’s gone. He plays hard, competes. He hit tough shots. Step-backs, runners. Then he missed some wide open J’s—go figure. He hits the toughest shots, but can’t always make the easiest ones. He looked like he could be a great complementary player in a 5 on 5. Definitely an atypical player for a European. "

@Shinons

That was my point with the “Stackhouse 2.0” comment. Evans is going to score 25ppg on 30 shots and 38%fg, and somehow people are going to think he’s a “superstar.” No, no, and no for Evans on the Pistons. I hope to God the Celtics give up Rondo to get Evans, because they’ll be letting the rest of the East off the hook for the next decade.

OK, here’s a new plan for you guys to chew on:

Starting Cap Space: ~$17 mil

1)Trade Amir and the #15 pick to OKC for Nenad Krstic and the #25 pick. Nenad Makes $1 mil more than Amir but the cap hold for 15 is $1 mil more than 25, so it is a squash(I do believe). Cap Space: ~$17 mil

2)Draft one PG(Lawson, Maynor, Vasquez, De Colo, Calathes, or Douglas), one wing player(Danny Green, Dionte Christmas, or Jodie Meeks), and 2 out of 3 big men(Hansbrough, Taj Gibson, or Alade Aminu). Cap remains the same since “draft pick holds” are already accounted for when considering cap space.

3)Sign Ben Gordon to 4 years/$45 mil($10 mil to start). Cap Space:~$7 mil

4)Sign Marcin Gortat for the remaining cap(4 years/$30 mil[$7 mil to start]). No cap space remains.

5)Do a sign and trade with the Knicks: We send them RIP for David Lee and Wilson Chandler. This is assuming Lee is resigned at $10 mil per. It would save the Knicks about $1 mil in cap space and would allow them to let Nate Robinson walk, saving them even more money. This trade is doable under the 125% rule.

6) Trade Tay and a future second rounder for Kaman and Thornton. The Clippers need to make room for their future(Griffin) and they would be getting the ultimate “glue” guy in Prince, which makes Thornton expendable as well, saving the Clips some money. This trade is doable under the 125% rule.

7)WIN CHAMPIONSHIP!!!

OK maybe step 7 won’t happen this year but if all these moves were done(and trust me I know it’s a long shot but plz let me fantasize) we would have a nice, young, and exciting team. Here is how the team would shape up after it’s all said and done:

Stuckey/Bynum/De Colo or Vasquez(39)
Gordon/Afflalo
Thornton/Chandler/Danny Green(35)
Lee/Hansbrough(25)/Gibson or Aminu(44)
Kaman/Gortat/Krstic

The reason I still had the Pistons signing Gortat was because of the injury concerns of BOTH Kaman and Krstic. Another option could have been to stand pat with Kaman and Krstic and spend the $7 mil elsewhere, like a veteran PF, but I chose this route. Not a bad team, even though I think it is highly unlikely that our team looks at all like this come opening tip next season.

@ Mike Payne: I said I knew in my head where the problem lied, my heart just didn’t want to accept it. But I would most certainly let MFWB go before I let Stuck go if I had all 3 PG’s. I would feel safer having Rondo and Stuck on the floor as opposed to Rondo and Bynum. Besides, we wouldn’t be letting him go until AFTER the season, when his contract would come off the books. However, this argument is moot because there is now way Boston trades Rondo, a proven player, for a rookie(Evans).

Actually, now that I think about it, maybe trading Rondo isn’t such a bad idea for Boston. That is assuming they are sold on Evans being a player that can contribute right away. Let’s say they trade Rondo for a high draft pick(high enough to land evans), and a rotational big that knows his role. They would help bolster their frontcourt, draft a very good combo guard, and avoid tying up a lot of money in Rondo long-term. They are going to have Garnett back healthy so all they would need out of their PG really is to manage the game and not lose it for them. So if Evans played like they hope he does, they would be getting a bargain when compared to Rondo’s raise he will undoubtedly receive. So they could keep their Big 3, have a young, exciting PG on the cheap for the next 4 years, and another big man to their revolving doors of big men.

I’m not saying it would be the smartest thing for them to do because Evans would have high expectations to live up to and no one is entirely sure if he can handle it, but it may not be QUITE AS BAD as it does at first glance. That said, if they make the move I have a feeling it would blow up in their face, so I hope they do it.

@Kronik:
That lineup scares the piss out of me. Not trying to be a prick or anything, as your enthusiasm is giving me something to read this afternoon :) But boo, BOO on Chris Kaman, his $12 million/yr. contract and his shitty injuries, boo on Thornton’s defense and volume shooting, boo on Krstic and the 117 games he’s played in the last three seasons, boo on Gordon’s size and lack of D. In that lineup, only your backup point guard is going to get you solid defense for 82 games?

MP: Kristic blew his ACL out. And he played overseas until picked up by OKC. Before that, he was a borderline all-star. I’ll take him and his very friendly salary.

Kaman: Yeah his injuries are a concern. But if, not a big if, he can put up 15/10 on a consistent basis, That’s not bad for 12M/yr compared to what’s out there.

Thorton: Don’t know enough to comment. But with B-Diddy & Z-Bo, if you get the ball, you gotta shoot it because it ain’t coming back to you. And it’s gotta be tough to preach D when those two are out on the floor with you.

i think ray allen is on the decline, even though he scored 50 on chicago in that series so the big three wont exist much longer, however rondo is on his way to stepping up and making a new holy trinity in boston. Rondo is the future of boston after the big three descend into convalescence. i have always thought that the big trade they made gave them a 3 yr window or so with their current lineup. boston is going to be interesting to watch next yr. i wonder if they got another great season left in the tank.

KRONIC:

I’m gonna have to second MP, that line-up is not the direction I would want the pistons to go in. Not to be too harsh, but a Stuckey/Gordon/Thornton trio only begins to make sense if you have some serious defensive specialists at PF/C. But with Lee/Kaman as the bigs that line-up is probably heading to the lottery.

Ah, I had been thinking when people referred to him as Stackhouse that it was supposed to be a compliment. Thanks for clearing that up.

@MarkButter:
he was a borderline all-star

How is 13.5 and 6.4 borderline all-star performance for a center, let alone a player at any position? Even 16.4 and 6.8 for 26 games the season after isn’t gonna cut it. Dude cannot rebound. Not at all. He just can’t do it.

Krstic went down in 2006, had surgery, came back the following season after “fully healing” and only played 45 games as problems arose again. His injuries forced him out of the league, as he couldn’t find a better deal here in the US. He was forgettable in Russia, playing 21 Minutes, 10.4 Points, 5.1 Reb for Triumph Moscow.

OKC signed him, then tried to trade for Tyson Chandler a month or so later.

I’ll take him and his very friendly salary.

I gotta disagree. Keep Krstic and his $5,400,000 salary and I’ll stick with Kwame Brown and his $4,000,000 salary who is a better player, a better defender, a bigger body and more productive.

i hope ben gordon signs a contract soon so that we can stop hearing his name in these pages. no one seriously wants him on this team right?

im willing to give kwame another shot this year, he was somewhat of a pleasant suprise, or at least wasn’t as terrible as his reputation would have suggested he would be. unless there is a clear ugrade available, and i dont think krstic or kaman would be able to stay healthy and produce, i say we hold off. tyson chandler would be nice since hes young and probably hasnt stopped growing as a player.

MarkButter,

If Roy Tarpley didn’t do drugs he’d have potentially been a hall of famer..

if Len Bias didn’t… well you know

@dandresden:
i hope ben gordon signs a contract soon so that we can stop hearing his name in these pages. no one seriously wants him on this team right?

Agreed 100%. No Gordon, please. (not about tyson chanlder though- he’s the same age as Kaman, a near equal injury risk, costs more and hasn’t done a damn thing since he peaked two years ago)

Well first of all, Kaman is actually a decent defender. He’s not a dominator but he holds his ground really well. His offensive game is very under-rated. He can play with his back to the basket or he can step outside and stroke a 15-footer very comfortably. I grew up playing basketball against him so maybe coming home for him would actually rejuvenate him kinda like it did Chauncey. I know Kaman has had foot problems but we also have Kander, and if he was able to help Sheed(whom also had foot problems) and McDyess(whose injuries were far worse) then I don’t think it is too far-fetched to think that he could help Kaman stay healthy, especially since he actually is healthy right now.

Krstic WAS INDEED being considered for all-star status before he went down with his ACL injury. Rebounder or not, he was one of the few legit centers in the NBA at the time making any kind of impact, especially in the East. You even gave the stats yourself Mike, Krstic averaged 10.4 points and 5.1 rebounds in only 21 minutes(in Russia, after his injury)! If you give his 48 minute average it looks a hell of a lot better(you guys can do the math). I like Kwame Brown. I think he is an excellent value at only $4 mil, but to say that he is the better player compared to Krstic is laughable. Over the course of their careers, they have averaged identical rebound totals(with Kwame averaging over 7 boards per game only once) and Krstic has averaged 4 more PPG. Kwame had countless opportunities to prove himself and I think it safe to assume that he has. He has proven that what you see is what you get, an 8 points and 5 boards per game player. And I’m fine with that, but if we can get a player that could potentially average 17 and 7 for an entire season for only $1 mil more…shit, sign me up! Besides, in my scenario Krstic was the 3rd option at center behind Kaman and Gortat.

As for the defensive issues you had with my team, those can all be addressed once players are practicing with the team, since defense is a TEAM concept, not an individual one. As long as you have athletic players willing to commit to defense, there shouldn’t be any problem. Stuck, Bynum, and whatever PG we draft should have enough lateral quickness to at least stay in front of opposing PG’s. Gordon has never been considered a good defender but neither was RIP. Afflalo would be our best on-the-ball defender(and you didn’t even mention him). Chandler and Thornton were never ASKED to play defense playing on the Knicks and Clippers, here they would be mandated to, and I’m sure they would be adequate. Lee, again, has never been considered a defensive presence, but all I really want out of him is to do what he always does – get rebounds and putbacks. Plus, he played in NY as well, so who knows, he may surprise some people with his defense. Kaman, Gortat, and Krstic would all be formidable enough to at least stand their ground to opposing centers(Kaman and Gortat more than Krstic). If we play TEAM DEFENSE we will be fine.

I also noticed a flaw in my team: I completely forgot about Kwame and Maxi, so that would make our team even deeper!

Stuckey/Bynum/De Colo or Vasquez
Gordon/Afflalo
Thornton/Chandler/Green
Lee/Hansbrough/Maxi/Gibson or Aminu
Kaman/Gortat/Brown/Krstic

So we definitely could spend that $7 mil elsewhere rather than Gortat, how about Ramon Sessions at 4 years/$30 mil($7 mil to start)? We could send De Colo overseas for some more polishing and we could have a pretty damn good third guard.

Stuckey/Bynum/Sessions
Gordon/Afflalo
Thornton/Chandler/Green or Christmas
Lee/Hansbrough/Maxi/Gibson or Aminu
Kaman/Brown/Krstic

I like that team! But, that is just my opinion. I know I’m a newbie to this site and I don’t really pull rank, but I’m a die-hard Pistons fan and I just want the best for my team. I’m not saying that this is the best way, I’m just saying that this is ONE WAY they could go. I ultimately hope they just get the best team possible so we can do what the Lakers did and win the trophy after being in the lottery 3 years prior.

I think I may be the last man standing who actually likes Gordon. I don’t know what’s not to like? People say he’s a walking turnover, but through their first 5 years in the league, Gordon and RIP have almost identical TO numbers(BG-2.4;RIP-2.2). People also say that he is a volume shooter that doesn’t shoot a good percentage, well through their first 5 seasons, RIP averaged 43.8% on just under 15 shots a game, while Gordon averaged 43.5% on just under 15 shots per game(interesting). And then there’s the infamous, “He doesn’t play defense!” argument, which I think is totally garbage. Like I have said many times before, RIP was hardly a defensive stud when we got him. Hell, many people thought he was a liability on the floor for us even after we had him for a couple years. It wasn’t until the past few years that people actually considered him a somewhat decent defender. Gordon is 5 years younger and can actually create his own shot. He would help 2 areas of need in one player: dribble penetration and 3-point shooting(which, by the way, Gordon has the SLIGHT edge 41.4% to RIP’s god-awful 30% through their first 5 years). RIP has been a 40+% 3 point shooter only twice in his career, while Gordon has NEVER been below 40% from 3-point range.

I like RIP, and if we keep him I wouldn’t be mad at the Pistons organization, but to think that Gordon is a horrible player to get in replace of RIP is ludicrous. I would love to have Gordon and all of his supposed short-comings.

@ MP: he was ~23 when he blew out his knee, scoring as a 4th option behind Kidd, VC & Jefferson ain’t bad at 16/ppg. Reboudning could use some work but long shots (see the three above) will tend to produce long rebounds.

It takes more than 8 months to come back “fully healthy.” And if you’re OKC and that trade, why wouldn’t you? It was basically a Gasol/Camby giveaway by the Hornets. As KronJ says, he was considered a legit 5 before the injury and has been in the league for 4 years (excl’g stint between injury and now playing overseas).

Kwame is a better defender but not a better player. For the most part, you can leave Kwame on offense. You have to at least guard Kristic. And as for reboudning, I don’t ever remember Kwame averaging more than 7 / game, even when he was playing starter minutes with Wash & LA.

@ Boney: And if my aunt had balls she’d be my uncle. So what? Isn’t this the whole “projecting” who will fit or drafted based on “if?” The difference is he was at least working to becoming a very legit 5. Isn’t this the same “projection” folks are using for Gortat?

I am also NOT a Gordon signee advocate. Don’t see how he fits other than coming off the bench, don’t view him as a PG (so stuck stays) and as a 2 his defense lacks, particularly being undersized. Now if he can be had for 8M, that’s another story. But at 10M+/yr, no way.

And for folks knocking Kaman, he’s a legit double/double guy, has some nice post up moves, ain’t afraid to play D down low and has a decent 12-15 footer, all for 12M/yr. Say the guy can give you 14/10/2 blks a game and decent low post defense. There aren’t many 5’s in the league who will give that to you on a consistent basis (yes, I agree this is before his injury last year and this past season) and his best season was when Brand was there so you know Brand was on the blocks (most sets) and Kaman got his anyways.

People are talking about throwing 6-7M at Gortat. Are we so sure this guy can give us 12/7/2 ? I think he can, but am leery of “prjecting.”

@KRONIK:
Well first of all, Kaman is actually a decent defender.

I agree, and never said he wasn’t. I said “only your backup point guard is going to get you solid defense for 82 games” because there is no way in hell Kaman will get you anything close to 82 games, Kander or not. Best case scenario, 73 games is probably his ceiling for the rest of his career.

Krstic WAS INDEED being considered for all-star status before he went down with his ACL injury.

The following Eastern Conference centers received more all star votes than Nenad Krstic in 2006-07, Krstic’s best statistical year:

Shaquille O’Neal
Dwight Howard
Ben Wallace
Alonzo Mourning
Zaza Pachulia
Andrew Bogut
Zydrunas Ilgauskus
Nazr Mohammed

So no, he wasn’t being considered for All Star Status.

If you give his 48 minute average it looks a hell of a lot better

I lol’d

Over the course of their careers, they have averaged identical rebound totals

Krstic has averaged 26.6 minutes per game to Kwame Brown’s 22.9. Even out those numbers to 36mpg, and Brown outrebounded Krstic by 1.1.

If we play TEAM DEFENSE we will be fine.

In ’04, we had a 4-time defensive player of the year in Ben, one of the best post defenders in the league in Rasheed, a lockdown SF against finesse 3s in Prince, a pesky, energizer battery defender in Rip and one of the best defensive PGs of this decade in Billups.

I’m not disagreeing with you, team defense can go a long way— but team defense is also a SUM OF ITS PARTS.

As for Ramon Sessions, he’s been one of my favorite non-Pistons since his 25 assist game against Chicago two years ago. If he’s on our team, he’s starting at the point. I’d rather try Ty Lawson though (thanks Joel, Gabe and others for selling me on him)— Lawson can shoot from range, something that Sessions cannot. And Session’s D is suspect.

I don’t think our backcourt is broken right now, I think we’d be wise to leave it alone and concentrate on a scoring big at the 4, then Gortat if he is available, then work on improving our SF position in the next two seasons. Stuckey, Bynum, Rip and Afflalo are great, solid enough to build with for now. I’d love to see Sessions in a Pistons uniform as our starter, but I’m more okay with leaving our backcourt alone until we solve our greater issues.

And I apologize. I can’t freakin type and spell.

@MP: screw the vote, it’s fans. I’d take Krisic before Nazr, Zaza, and to a large extent, Wallace, even the 06 version. It’s just that Wallace fit our rotation, but I think we could have done just as well with Kristic (no blown knee).

MP: “one of the best defensive PGs of this decade in Billups.”

I can’t go along with that.

i dont think gordon is awful by any stretch of the imagination, nor do i am saying he would be a horrible replacement for rip. my knowledge of him comes mostly from this years playoffs and when the bulls played the pistons in the past and from i can tell is that he is just a one-on-one player. an offensive black hole. as i said i have limited exposure to him so i will admit that i might be wrong. i dont think he would be awful but it just doesn’t seem the right direction to go. i don’t think the difference between him and rip is great enough to get rid of rip unless you just want something different.

@mike payne
wow i thought that chandler was younger than kaman but a quick google proved me wrong. it must be that jacked up hair on kaman that threw me off. for some reason he always reminds me of that blonde guy from the old tv show coach and the stand.

@MarkButter:
[Krstic] was considered a legit 5 before the injury

That’s what I certainly don’t agree with. I consider a “legit 5” someone who can rebound, defend and block shots. Krstic is more of an SF in a C’s body, and he is mediocre at all three of those.

Besides, it’s not about Kwame vs. Krstic so much, only that I see no upside to making a move for him since he doesn’t present a significant upgrade over Brown— certainly not proportionate to his cost. I’ll gladly eat a scoring hole at the 5 if we can improve the 4 and let our backcourt grow.

@MarkButter:
screw the vote, it’s fans.

Then how the hell can you say he was in all-star contention?

I’d take Krisic before Nazr, Zaza, and to a large extent, Wallace, even the 06 version. It’s just that Wallace fit our rotation, but I think we could have done just as well with Kristic (no blown knee).

!!!!!!! I don’t even know how to respond to that.

We need a scoring big. Kaman and Krstic are scoring bigs. They both have big red flags. They might work for us under certain scenarios. They could suck or be injured for the next two years.

That pretty much cover it?

06-07 would have been the year he would have been considered for the all-star game but he got injured. The only reason I bring him up is Joe won’t make a trade to OKC for Amir and the 15 pick for absolutely nothing, i just don’t see that, so i looked at their team for people that they would consider unloading to us in a possible trade. And when I said the per 48 minute remark, I meant his stats over in Russia when you posted his stats over just a mere 21 minutes. But I ultimately don’t have the final say, Joe does.

that sums it up shinons. Plus, are there better options at the 5 available?

I’d say that depends on what we’re needing out of our 5.

Anybody see the rumor about Josh Smith on realgm.com,apparently Atlanta is trying to trade him ,I ‘d take him if the price wasn’t too high 10mil ayr. for him is not bad and he’s fairly young yet ,and he doesn’t have the injuries and the head case problems of some of these other guys , not sure if Atlanta would trade him to another eastern conference team but Joe is on pretty good terms with Atlanta’s gm.

I like Josh Smith, I definitely wouldn’t mind having him in Detroit.

Ty Lawson = MFWB – MF.

Trade the pick and Amir and sign Boozer and Odom. Beg Dyess to come back. Bring MFWB, Odom and Kwame off the bench and run an 8 man rotation in the playoffs (sorry Afflalo and Maxiell):

PG: Stuckey (24min), Bynum (24min)
SG: Rip (36min), Stuckey (12min)
SF: Tay (36min), Odom (12min)
PF: Boozer (36min), Odom (12min)
C: McDyess (24min), Kwame (24min)

In the following off-season, use the MLE to get a C (Joel Przybilla?).

@QD:
Cosign, cosign, cosign 100%.

Oh, and Przybilla has a player option his contract for $7.4 million which he’d likely exercise unless he gets a longer term deal. Age aside, I can’t think of a center I’d rather have more that could be available. Dyess wouldn’t be a good option as our starting C going forward, but he can backup a guy like Prz and bring a scoring touch.

I just want to throw this out there concerning MFWB. He was incredible to watch late in the season, but do we really need our backup pg to be our go-to-guy? Last season nobody cared much to try hard, but assuming this offseason goes well, we’ll have a couple starters who will unquestionably be our GTG. Then think about the incredible trade value he has. He’s making under 1 mil this year, also expiring this year. I’m just saying.. we may be able to use him better in a trade than we could next season.

QD:

IMO, that’s one of the best scenarios spelled out thus far. I’d look at possibly going after Gortat instead of Dice mainly because I think we could use more youth and size in that frontcourt, but that aside, I like Odom, especially because it looks like his price tag will be very reasonable, and Boozer makes sense at PF if we keep the Stuck/Rip/Tay trio together. It’s unclear how much money it will take to snag Gortat, I’d like to hope we can stretch our cap space enough to get all three of them, but maybe that’s wishful thinking.

A line-up of Stuck/Rip/Tay/Odom/Boozer would be pretty potent offensively, and with Gortat/Kwame as our defensive minded C’s we’d have the size to match up decently against teams with bigger post players. That’s a very solid squad already, and if Stuckey makes a jump up in production we suddenly have a playoff contender again.

One thing that worries me though is Joe trading Amir and our pick and just using the extra money to pay two guys a few million dollars more. If we use the extra money to get a third, proven NBA player then I’m all for it (Like in QD’s scenario- with Dice coming back making him the third, though it can be anyone. I like Gortat, but mainly I think the roster needs more than just two additional players). If Joe moves Amir and the 15th pick for the right to pay Ben Gordon 10m/year and Carlos Boozer 12m/year, well then… I have a really hard time seeing how we’ve improved.

That’s why I’m inherently leery of dumping Amir/picks because I fear it might just be a precursor to overpaying guys who we could have signed for less (or who we probably shouldn’t be going after in the first place… cough Ben Gordon cough).

Gabe, if you can get Gortat too, that would be ideal. Another option is to use the cap space on Boozer, Gortat and Matt Barnes to backup Tay. Maxiell would be Boozer’s backup. You probably wouldn’t have to move Amir and the pick to sign the three. And you could wait on signing Barnes once you see who you get in the draft.

According to J.A. Adande, Odom can be had for the MLE. Let’s say the Pistons give him 7mil/year. I’ve heard Boozer might go for 60mil over 5 years (starting at 10mil). That could leave 5mil to offer Gortat if the Pistons can sell off the pick and Amir.

wow, there seems to be a lot of people here afraid of change. This off-season is the best time to utilize this cap space and tradeable assets we have. I like Tay and I like RIP, but if we are in a rebuilding process, which we most certainly are, then why not use their adequate contracts to help re-tool this team. When I say “adequate”, I mean having a fair price when considering the player’s production. If we can get better and younger without having to give them up then I’m all for it, but I don’t see how investing all our cap space into Boozer(i like him but he has injury concerns), Odom(who’s knocking on 30), and bringing back dyess(i love him but i think he’s leaving for a contender) for one more year really helps this team out for the future. I know Boozer would be signed long-term but what about Odom and Dice? Dice would most likely sign a 1 or 2 year deal, so his money should come off the books rather quickly, but Odom won’t sign a 1 or 2 year deal. Not to leave the Lakers where he just won a ring and come play on the bench in Detroit! That’s crazy! If you guys don’t want to totally revamp the team this offseason, then here’s another scenario for you guys to chew on:

1)Trade Amir and the 15 pick to OKC for the 25 pick. New Cap:~$21 mil

2)Draft Taj Gibson(25), Danny Green(35), Nando De Colo(39), and Alade Aminu(44). New Cap:~$21 mil

3)Sign Boozer to 4 years/$45 mil($10 mil to start). New Cap:~$11 mil

4)Sign Gortat to 4 year/$25 mil($6 mil to start). New Cap:~$5 mil

5)Sign Marvin Williams to 4 year/$24 mil($5 mil to start). No Cap Remains.

So now after the draft and after exhausting all of our cap space in FA signings, our team looks like this:

Stuckey/Bynum/De Colo
RIP/Afflalo
Prince/Williams/Green
Boozer/Maxi/Gibson/Aminu
Gortat/Kwame

Now we can proceed to do trades and take on more salary if we would like to by simply following the 125% rule. So we could feasibly trade Tay and a future second rounder to the Clippers for Kaman and Thornton. Then Turn around and do a sign and trade with the Knicks involving Maxi and Kwame for Lee. Assuming Lee resigns at $8 mil per. This one I’m not so sure would work because of the players involved having special contracts, I can’t check it on realgm. I think Lee would have to resign for slightly less than $8 mil per, but oh well, this is just a fictional scenario anyways. But either way our team could look like this:

Stuckey/Bynum/Nando De Colo
RIP/Afflalo
Marvin Williams/Thornton/Green
Boozer/Lee/Gibson/Aminu
Gortat/Kaman

Good youth with some well-rounded, experienced veterans sprinkled in there. I still maintain that if we can get something good for RIP and sign Gordon to a decent contract, that that would be the best route for us. I actually think trading RIP and Tay would get us maximum value in this off-season. But we will have to wait and see what happens.

@KRONIK:
Stuckey/Bynum/Nando De Colo
RIP/Afflalo
Marvin Williams/Thornton/Green
Boozer/Lee/Gibson/Aminu
Gortat/Kaman

We’ve talked about that lineup ad nauseum here on DBB, I think that (save the Kaman trade) it could be one of our best bets. In early May, we talked about a frontcourt of Gortat/Boozer/Williams— and I think that could be quite deadly. Only problem— Williams is not leaving Atlanta for less than $7, that is what has been rumored to be their ceiling on what they’ll match for Marvin. IMO, he’s the best young SF in free agency, and he’ll get more than the MLE. Otherwise, I agree on the lineup.

I’d prefer to keep Tayshaun and move him later for complimentary pieces. With our free agent money, I’d like to bring in Boozer and Gortat and call it a day. Plenty of DBBers preceeded that thinking though, it certainly isn’t an original idea on my part.

Well you might like this one then:

1) Trade Amir and 15 to OKC for 25

2)Do the same draft picks from above(except swap Aminu for Meeks)

3)Sign Gortat to 4 year/$25 mil($6 mil to start)

4)Sign Marvin Williams to 4 year/$30 mil($7 mil to start)

5)Sign Charlie Villanueva to 4 years/$24 mil($5 mil to start)

6)Sign Channing Frye to 4 years/$15 mil($3 mil to start)

Our team would be as follows:

Stuckey/Bynum/Nando De Colo
RIP/Afflalo/Jodie Meeks
Prince/Williams/Danny Green
Villanueva/Frye/Maxi/Taj Gibson
Gortat/Kwame

I swapped out Alade Aminu for Jodie Meeks since we would be signing 2 PF’s in free agency and already drafting one…didn’t want TOO MANY power forwards

There ya go man…a dream team scenario. LOL, I can do this stuff all day. I really do like Charlie V and Frye though, and I think we can get them BOTH cheaper than Boozer. Hell, we could even take a look at Drew Gooden as a backup PF. But in this scenario, we ould be able to shop Prince or RIP later in the season after we see what we get from our FA’s, so that way we can help bolster our team as needed.

@ MP: Borderline Allstar from announcers, pundits and the like. Under your scenario, Manny is all-start this year since he’s around 5th or 6th in fan voting. A borderline allstart this season? Nope.

Wallace left the Pistons following the 06 season when he agreed to a 60M/4 yr with the bulls. He wasn’t that effective during the season and had tiffs with Flip. Some were complaining on this blog recently about why Joe D isn’t a good GM because he let Ben walk. But, we’re talking about how 12M is about right for Boozer. I’d gladly give 12 to Boozer before I gave 15M to the Ben of 06. Additionally, Ben has vastly underperformed his contract since then. So if we’re talking about Kristic (before knee injury) in 06 making ~6M/yr or hanging on to the Wallace of 06 at 15M, gimme Kristic in a heartbeat. Bad economy or not.

As for Kwame vs. Kristic: Kristic is only making about 1M more a year. He’ll give you the same amount of rebounds ~7-8 as Brown. I readily admit Brown is a better low post defender because of this size, but Kristic is still 7’ 240. Has by far a better offensive game. If we’re comparing Kwame to Ben (for the sake of arguement of the 04 team, the 5 didn’t produce any points and played low post D) then since Kwame isn’t any where near Ben, nor is Kristic, then I vote for an increase in offensive production before I take the difference in defensive ability.

Lastly, as I said above, the Hornets/Chandler trade was a Gasol type giveaway/salary dump. You can’t compare “OKC so happy with Kristic that they almost traded for Chandler” logic.

I hate stats, but in 08/09 in 25 minutes Krsitc average 10/6/1 with 2.5 fouls. Ramp that to say 35 and we have ~14/8/1.5 using a flat line projection. That’s not worth ~5M/yr and starting before Kwame? Heck, we’re in theory almost ready to sign Boozer to a 14M/yr (almost 10 MORE per season) for roughly 8 points and 2 rebounds more production. And the best think about Kristic is he can play the 4.

@ Gabe via QD: “A line-up of Stuck/Rip/Tay/Odom/Boozer would be pretty potent offensively, and with Gortat/Kwame as our defensive minded C’s”. The only problem I see is Odom will take less money to be 6th man on the Lakers before he’s sixith man here. His MLE+ @ ~7M is a starting gig someplace. He ain’t leaving LA to be 6th man somewhere else.

But I like the thinking of mixing things up and bringing Dyess back. But I don’t think Dyess comes back. I think he already knows MCIAFI.

@ KronJ: Some great scenarios. I agree with what I believe your premise to be, we need to blow things up this offseason if the opportunity presents itself. Reality is, we aren’t a superstar away from challenging for a ring and probably two superstars away with a trade to be made in addition. Keeping Rip or Tay around for 2 years while we get “our sea-playoff-legs” can work but only if we think in 2 or 3 years we’re knocking on the door quite loud. Merely gently ringing the doorbell in 2-3 years won’t work unless we let Tay walk and dump an expiring Rip contract.

After the AI debacle, Sheed being Sheed this past year we need alot of new blood. As for J Smith, not at 10M I don’t like him. Offer 6.5 and make the Hawks match. If he is picked up, you need someone like Laimbeer before a MCIAFI to handle attitudes. That’s what was disappointing with MCIAFI. He obviously had mgmnt in his corner and should have been more hard on AI. I think it would have sent a message to the entire team. In the end, I think both MCIAFI and Joe D got played by AI and it’s effect wasn’t lost on the rest of the team. And that’s their fault, not AI’s.

Lawson = (MFWB – TO’s) + assts + 3pt range

If he emerges immediately as our best option at PG (which I think he will, given the fact that we have none), he makes somebody else expendable as trade-bait (Rip). Suddenly we’re nothing but youth/speed/depth at the backcourt positions for years to come. Plus, I think that having a pass-first point guard who will push the ball up the floor (the obvious difference from Stuck/MFWB would be the “pass-first” comment), imagine how much more fun life will be for the baby-eaters (assuming we still have them)? Also, if we can get a little more uptempo in general (fast break after turnovers, instead of always walking the ball up), how much more attractive of a destination for potential FA’s are we? We’d basically be what the Sixers wished they were— fun, uptempo, but still defense-first. A lot like the original Bad Boys teams, who actually averaged 104-109 ppg during their 3-yr peak and still were a top 3 defense each year.

As for the bigs, I think I’m down with any combination of the following guys:

Maxiell
Kwame
Kaman (if healthy)
Boozer (if affordable)
Gortat
Odom (if cheap)
Blair (draft)
Hansbrough (draft)
Krstic (if healthy)

I’m not sure who this guy is, writing for the Orl Sentinel. But he should come read the DBB. “Amare makes us a contender again” he says. “All the talk does not take into account salaries and cap” WTF?? Nice article about the Pistons, though he doesn’t really say what they should do or can do. Just alot of, well, if Joe D did this then that fell into place or perhaps this then that would work. Interesting though.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/199778-a-new-turk-in-the-palace-pistons-options-expanding

I think we should vote (just like Iran!) on who we think would be good offseason targets, whether through the draft, trade, or free agency (restricted or otherwise). Relative assumptions should be that the player is projected near the 15th pick or 2nd round, that a reasonable trade could happen, and that a player would not be too expensive. I’ll pull something together from what I remember people have mentioned. Let me know if I miss anyone.

Just put a Y if you’d be happy with the player in a Pistons uniform (given what it would take to get him), N if you wouldn’t, and ? if you don’t know.

Draft (1st Round)
PG Ty Lawson (Y)
PF DeJuan Blair (Y)
PF Tyler Hansbrough (N)
SF Earl Clark (N)
SF Austin Daye (N)
C B.J. Mullens (N)
SG Terrence Williams (Y)
PG Eric Maynor (N)
PG Darren Collison (Y)
PG Jeff Teague (N)
PG Johnny Flynn (N)

Draft (2nd Round)
SF Danny Green (Y)
PG Nando De Colo (?)
PG Toney Douglas (?)
PF Josh Heytvelt (N)
SG Jodie Meeks (?)
PG Nick Calathes (Y)
PG Patty Mills (N)
SF Dionte Christmas (?)
PF Taj Gibson (Y)

Trade
C Chris Kaman (Y)
C Nenad Krstic (N)
SF Marvin Williams (Y)
PF Josh Smith (N)
PF David Lee (N)

Free Agency
SF Trevor Ariza (N)
PF Lamar Odom (N)
PF Carlos Boozer (Y)
C Marcin Gortat (Y)
PF Channing Frye (N)
PF Charlie Villanueva (N)
SG Ben Gordon (Y)
PF Antonio McDyess (YYYYYYYYY)
PF Rasheed Wallace (N)
PF Paul Millsap (N)
SF Hedo Turkoglu (N)
SF Ron Artest (N)

Joel: Like your lineup of bigs regarding possibilities. But, having a “pass-first” PG is irrelevant if nobody can put it in the hole on a consistent basis.

As for the Pistons scoring ave, they had alot of weapons but also the rules were different regarding perimeter D. And since Joe D & Thomas and the Microwave for perimeter O, it would be hard to duplicate that now given the rules. But I like your uptempo as long as it’s managed correctly.

Here’s a comparison of Kwame Brown and Nenad Kristic’s career stats:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=brownkw01&y1=2009&p2=krstine01&y2=2009

I’ll spoil the surprise: There is very little difference between them. Kristic scores a little more frequently, but he’s no great shakes (career average of 14.9 pts per/36 minutes). Their scoring efficiency is almost identical (Kwame= TS% of .523, eFG% of .487. Kristic= TS% of .530, eFG% of .489), and Kwame is the better rebounder.

Kristic is a marginally better offensive player, but not enough to really be a helpful upgrade over Kwame, and once Kwame’s superior 1v1 post defense is taken into account, I think it’s fair to say Kwame is the more useful player.

I am really over the arguing of who is better between Kwame and Krstic because bottom line, Krstic is not here, but if I had to choose between a per 36 average of 11 and 9 or 15 and 8? I will take 15 and 8 all day long(Krstic). Now I know we say Kwame is a better defender, which he may be, but do we really know? have we all seen Krstic defend ANYONE? I know I have seen him play when he was playing for the Nets but I really haven’t SCOUTED him. Kwame is no defensive stopper. People don’t NOT drive the lane because they know he is in the middle, like they did for the wallace’s. So it is safe to say that he is just a marginal defender that knows how to do his job. I think Krstic could do that as well. I’m pretty sure I am the one that brought up the whole Krstic idea and the only reason I did so is because I just don’t see Joe trading Amir and the 15 pick to OKC for absolutely nothing but cap space. So I went and looked at their team for some expendable pieces that might be able to help us. We wouldn’t be giving anything up except for what we were already rumored to be giving up(amir and the pick). As a matter of fact, in a new “scenario”, i have the Pistons trading Amir and the 15 pick for simply the 25 pick, as opposed to the 25 pick AND Krstic. That way Joe could get his cap space(about $4 mil more) and we could still have a first round pick.

@ Gabe: I guess I’d have to say: We can feel reasonable about Kristic stats projecting to 36 mins, Kwame’s I don’t believe for a second. Kwame could average 8/5 in 20 minutes. As an example, I don’t think Kwame goes to 16/10 in 36 minutes (20 isn’t exactly 1/2 of 36, simpiclity is my goal). I don’t think Kwame gets to 16pts on a consistent basis playing 40 minutes a nite. If for no other reason than he sucks at the line and fouls too much.

OTOH, I think Kristic could be a 16/10 guy every nite (with 36 mins) on our roster. Not to mention because of his offensive skill, he’s going to be able to get at a minimum 1 more asset per nite than Kwame and by far compared to Kwame open up the lane for Stuck & MFWB.

Defensively, Kwame’s it, hands down and don’t disagree. But we need a scoring 4 or 5, which Kristic is better equipped to be. It does no good to get Boozer (as an example) on the block when Kwame’s guy isn’t ever going to have to leave the paint, plus Boozer isn’t going to get as many rebounds with that many people in the paint. That’s what makes Okur so valuable to the Jazz regarding Boozer (and the Jazz shooters, Korver, Williams, etc.).

I just don’t believe Kwame is ever going to be a double/double guy every nite given 36 minutes. At least not a double/double that we need, i.e., spreading the offense out and hitting mid range jumpers because he has no low post O. And at the end of a close game, Kwame will be on the bench because he’ll be the Hack-a-Shaq volunteer. So not only is he going to be a poor double/double guy, he’s not going to typically sniff 36 minutes because of foul trouble or free throw shooting. And if I’m paying 1M more a year, I want to at least have the opportunity to play my guy close to 44 mins a game come playoffs and be able to hit FTs. As we just saw in Orlando.

I think the biggest thing Lawson would give us over Stuck or MFWB is leadership. He’d be the floor general that we missed so much in Chauncey.

DaJuan Summers is my favorite prospect for the second round and Milan Macvan sounds like a Serbian Bill Lambieer – I added them.

Draft (1st Round)
PG Ty Lawson (Y)
PF DeJuan Blair (Y)
PF Tyler Hansbrough (N)
SF Earl Clark (Y)
SF Austin Daye (N)
C B.J. Mullens (Y)
SG Terrence Williams (N)
PG Eric Maynor (N)
PG Darren Collison (N)
PG Jeff Teague (N)
PG Johnny Flynn (N)

Draft (2nd Round)
SF DaJuan Summers (Y)
C Milan Macvan (Y)
SF Danny Green (Y)
PG Nando De Colo (?)
PG Toney Douglas (?)
PF Josh Heytvelt (?)
SG Jodie Meeks (Y)
PG Nick Calathes (N)
PG Patty Mills (?)
SF Dionte Christmas (Y)
PF Taj Gibson (Y)

Trade
C Chris Kaman (?)
C Nenad Krstic (N)
SF Marvin Williams (Y)
PF Josh Smith (N)
PF David Lee (N)

Free Agency
SF Trevor Ariza (N)
PF Lamar Odom (?)
PF Carlos Boozer (Y)
C Marcin Gortat (Y)
PF Channing Frye (N)
PF Charlie Villanueva (N)
SG Ben Gordon (N)
PF Antonio McDyess (Y)
PF Rasheed Wallace (N)
PF Paul Millsap (Y)
SF Hedo Turkoglu (N)
SF Ron Artest (N)

If we trade Amir and the 15th, I would rather it be for cap space than for Kristic.

KRONIC:

I think your new scenario is more realistic. The main problem with Kristic is even if he is a little better than Kwame, we still have Kwame on the roster for next season, and between both of them we’d be tying up around $10m in salary on two not-so-great C’s. I think Joe would prefer not getting a salary back in any Amir trade, as the additional flexibility we’ll have from extra cap space is more valuable than the upgrade (however great or small) from Kwame to Kristic.

@ Birdman: change a few with comments.

Draft (1st Round)

PG Ty Lawson (Y) Is going to require Stuck at the 2 someday
PF DeJuan Blair (N) – knee report & we’ve got Maxi
PF Tyler Hansbrough (Y) in a heartbeat @ 15th pick
SF Earl Clark (N) We’ve got Sharpe – same learning/play curve
SF Austin Daye (N) Gotta see his mom (weight gain prospects). Dad was a rail also.
C B.J. Mullens (N) Only if we’re on the 5 year plan
SG Terrence Williams (N) I’ve heard he has “red flag background” I apologize to him for following rumors, but I assume their true
PG Eric Maynor (N)
PG Darren Collison (N) MFWB redundant without the shot
PG Jeff Teague (N)
PG Johnny Flynn (N)

Draft (2nd Round)
SF Danny Green (Y)
PG Nando De Colo (?)
PG Toney Douglas (?)
PF Josh Heytvelt (Y) Needs to pass consistent ganja tests
SG Jodie Meeks (?)
PG Nick Calathes (Y)
PG Patty Mills (Y) Olympics (Aus) and could step in a play now (I think)
SF Dionte Christmas (?)
PF Taj Gibson (Y) In a heartbeat – even @ pick #25

Trade
C Chris Kaman (Y)
C Nenad Krstic (Y) See my comments
SF Marvin Williams (Y)
PF Josh Smith (N)
PF David Lee (N)

Free Agency
SF Trevor Ariza (N)
PF Lamar Odom (N)
PF Carlos Boozer (Y)
C Marcin Gortat (Y)
PF Channing Frye (N)
PF Charlie Villanueva (N) Strikes me as a Tim Thomas clone
SG Ben Gordon (N) Too undersized in backcourt with Stuck
PF Antonio McDyess (YYYYYYYYY) I’d chip in to bring him back
PF Rasheed Wallace (N) Unless is was a stellar return, wouldn’t even do a sign-n-trade to help him out
PF Paul Millsap (N) too small unless we sign Okur
SF Hedo Turkoglu (N) 30 this year, meaning 32-33 before we get things right

I think Lawson and Hansborough are safe picks in that they will have careers in the NBA, but I can’t see either of them being quality starters. I’m willing to put money on this.

Here’s a pro scouts look at Lawson and Psycho-T:

http://foxsports.foxnews.com/nba/story/9425700/Lawson%60s-pro-prospects-not-too-bright

http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/9394210/Does-OU’s-Griffin-have-goods-for-NBA-stardom

@QD: Cosign. I think Lawson has the higher ceiling of the two.

Both those articles are from early April. The scouts have gotten an up close and personal look at all these guys in the two months since then, and there’s a reason why both guys were projected early second-rounders at the time and have since moved up significantly (to the point where most mocks actually have Psycho-T in the lotto and Lawson close to it).

I’m convinced that both of them are can’t miss career starters. Given the right situations (Psycho-T next to Timmy D?), one or both could be All-Stars too. You just can’t take athleticism over experience. That’s what fucked us with the Darko pick (Melo, Wade), that’s what fucked ATL with the Marvin Williams pick (Paul, D-Will), that’s what fucked the Bulls with Ty Thomas (Roy/Aldridge). I’ll take either of the NC boys over Harden, Flynn, Hill, Clark, Evans, etc., ANY day.

@ Joel: + 100%

As Larry Brown would say “Play the game the right way.”

that means off-season, after game parties, etc. That’s why Psycho T probably has a chip on his shoulder after hearing all this stuff about Blake, his non-athleticism, etc.

which brings me to Bosh: Has this guy improved any part of his game since his rookie year? He may have improved slightly his outside shot. And though I haven’t watched him alot, going by what I’ve seen and read:

Bulked up: no
“Go to” post moves: None that I’m aware of
Significantly improve rebounding: Not that I can see.
3 point shot: Please.
Improved Handle: Haven’t watched enough.

And this guy is talking a max contract. He’s in for a very rude surprise unless Bryan Coangelo can fleece someone.

Joel, certainly there are plenty of examples of NBA decision-makers valuing athleticism over experience and suffering for it. However, that is a cherry-picked list. There are plenty of examples for the other side of the argument (Dwight Howard vs. Emeka Okafor, for example).

Emeka hasn’t been a total bust though. In fact, I’m pretty sure he’s an upgrade at center for 9 out of 10 teams out there, us included. He plays great D and is a guaranteed double-double.

Since I like Bosh and am the resident Canadian, I’ll defend him a bit. I think he pretty much had to say the max stuff, just like Sheed’s people were talking earlier about how he wants to get paid. It doesn’t mean teams will pay that, and it certainly doesn’t mean he’ll be unhappy if he doesn’t get max money. He’s a classy guy and seems to have a good head on his shoulders, so I’m sure he just wants to try to get what’s best for him to secure his future and that’s that.

Has he bulked up? Surprisingly, yeah. But he’s still KG-wiry thin and he’ll probably always be that way.
Go to post moves? Not really, but he does seem to score when he wants to on a lot of bigs because he shoots a high percentage from deep and he can out-quick guys by driving to the hoop since he’s more of a face-up big than a post-up big.
Significantly improved rebounding? Not really. He’s averaging 9 for his career, but it would be nice to see him get a few more even though he was 12th in the entire league last season.
3 point shot: No, but he shouldn’t be out there any ways (Sheed?).
Improved handle: Definitely. He has surprisingly good ball-handling skills and can break down defenders off the dribble from 18 feet out if he needs to.

Bosh would still be my #1 pick if we could have anyone we wanted.

I wouldn’t put too much stock in what Charlie Rosen says. He questioned Lawson’s shooting ability, which if I’m not mistaken, is one of his strengths. He’s no Chris Paul, but I could see him being decent-good. I just don’t see it with Hansbrough, though. The fact that he did well at a combine does not sway me. Watching how hard he had to work in college, I just don’t see how he can get it done for more than 15-20mpg in the NBA. Maybe if he adds range to his jumper.

I think Lawson and Hansborough are safe picks in that they will have careers in the NBA, but I can’t see either of them being quality starters. I’m willing to put money on this.

So, what they said in 2005 about Danny Granger?

@ Garrett: Thanks for the update. But I think you made my point.

No low post moves. I’m sure he’s gotten better just being older and in the NBA. But for a guy that’s 6’11" and a 4, and since he doesn’t have a Sheed 3 in him, yeah, at this point in his career he should have shown some bonafide development.

Rebounding: I agree with what you said. Needs to improve.

Bulking up: I don’t expect him to look like Ben Wallace or Howard, but I think he definitely could have been in the weight room during the off season. I remember when Kobe started out the 07 season and announcers said he’d lost 15-20 pounds so as to be quicker. That 15-20 pounds had been put on during the last couple of years, i.e,. he didn’t lose body fat. I think his body type will be what it is. But not to have hit the weight room (from what I see and have read) seems to me to be selling yourself short if you’re asking for a max contract. I’m talking about what goes into the off season that makes you a max contract player during the season.

Salary: I agree. Start highest and go from there. But he said he wouldn’t take less money to hook up with another superstar. I guess you can fold one into two: Start at max money go down and you get there taking less money to be with a superstar. Nonetheless, it’s that sound of ME, ME, ME that I don’t like. There’s nothing wrong saying “Yeah, sure I’d take less money to play with Bron or Wade or Kobe. But given what I could earn elsewhere and still have a legit chance at a ring, I’d say it’d be tough to have two superstars at max money and still be competitive because of the guys you’d have around you would be paid less than many others in the league.” Or some other PC answer. He’s been around long enough to know how to answer that question. It’s the answer he gave that dismays me.

Plus the fact that I don’t think he’s a max player. Period. And I understand about having the cajones to say you’re a max player and the ego involved. But when I look at his body of work and project it forward and he’s been in the league since 03, I don’t see how he can credibly make that statement and be taken seriously. Bron. Kobe. Wade. Dwight. After 4-6 years you could project what you’ve seen from draft nite forward and legitimately say “Yeah, if the trend continues, this guy’s got a chance to be great.” Bosh??

If I’m a GM and in an interview I say name two things you’ve seen the most improvement on since you’ve been in the league and how you got there, what is his response? And he can’t use “I understand the game better.” What is his repsonse? It’s one thing to say I’ve lifted my ass off and this is where I’m at. It’s totally another to say “I’ve begun serioius offseason strength training.” After 5 years at the 4 you’re just now thinking about hitting the weights hard? During a contract year? Go figure.

Bosh would be my first choice too. Not to oversimplify, but as to the “he has some flaws and he hasn’t made improvements when he could have” argument, my response is that even if all that’s true, Bosh is still better than the alternatives. We’re not picking from an infinite list or creating our own superstar. We’re choosing from among Kaman, Boozer, Milsap, Lee, and maybe a couple of other folks. I don’t even want to talk about Gordon, Amare, etc. because we need a legit big guy. Bosh is clearly better than any one of the alternative bigs, I think. Now, given salary levels, if we could get two of those guys as opposed to Bosh and nothing else, that could be a different story. But among the bigs, Bosh is the best, imperfect though he may be.

Hey Krstic fans. You should just sign this guy for cheap, since he’s got the same per 36 stats, is a few years older and is looking at returning to the NBA this season (like your boy did this last year).

All joking aside, I’m really looking forward to not hearing Krstic mentioned here anymore, and kind of wish PG4L would come in and drop the knowledge.

That aside, my turn!!

Draft (1st Round) (one y/n = a little, two y/n = very interested, three y/n = do that shit!)
PG Ty Lawson (YYY)
PF DeJuan Blair (YYY)
PF Tyler Hansbrough (Y)
SF Earl Clark (Y)
SF Austin Daye (NNN)
C B.J. Mullens (Y)
SG Terrence Williams (Y)
PG Eric Maynor (N)
PG Darren Collison (N)
PG Jeff Teague (N)
PG Johnny Flynn (N)

Draft (2nd Round)
(I have no idea, I defer to the pros here who watch college hoops, as I do not)

Trade
C Chris Kaman (N)
C Nenad Krstic (MF NNN)
C Tyson Chandler (NNN)
SF Marvin Williams (Y)
PF Josh Smith (N)
PF David Lee (N)
PF Chris Bosh (N$)
PF David West (Y$)

Free Agency
SF Trevor Ariza (NN)
SF Shawn Marion (YY)
PF Lamar Odom (YY)
PF Carlos Boozer (YYY)
C Marcin Gortat (YYY)
PF Channing Frye (N)
PF Charlie Villanueva (NN)
SG Ben Gordon (NNN)
PF Antonio McDyess (Y)
PF Rasheed Wallace (N)
PF Paul Millsap (Y)
SF Hedo Turkoglu (NNN)
SF Ron Artest (YY)

Going back to the early May discussions, I still want this to be our transaction focus for the summer:

1) Sign Carlos Boozer, $11M to $12M/yr. If he’s not available, go after Millsap, then Odom, then Lee.

2) Assuming we get Boozer, try to get Gortat for the mid-level money. If we don’t get Gortat, keep Kwame and wait on a 5 upgrade.

3) No gortat? Spend mid-level money or less on the following SF upgrades, in this order: Marion, Odom, Artest, Williams.

4) Use SF sharing minutes with prince and spotting up at the 4 (except for artest, who can spot up behind hamilton, williams can spot up behind both)— all the while exploring the trade market for Tayshaun Prince, seeking upgrades at the 5 and or a group of young role players, picks, etc.

@MP Cosign with steps 1-4.

Also, have we forgotten so soon? None of us listed one very important free agent: ALLEN IVERSON.

Even ahead of Boozer, I’d like to find out what it’d take us to get Amare.

Joel, did you see Hansborough try to guard Blake Griffin? I like Psycho-T and he played hard but they weren’t in the same league. You are insane if you think he can be an NBA All-Star.

You don’t need to be a lock-down defender to be an All-Star. You don’t even need to be a marginally good defender, honestly.

Allen Iverson?
Mo Williams?
Rashard Lewis?
Amare?
Dirk?

And that’s just last year’s game. Never mind Steve Nash, Charles Barkley, Jerry Stackhouse, and the many other All-Stars who were known as terrible defenders.

Hansbrough works really really hard. Harder than anybody on the floor. At worst he’ll be a decent team/help-side defender who scraps a ton and dives for a lot of loose balls.

Heck, you don’t have to be a lock-down defender to make the All-Defense Team.

@ Birdman: LOL !!

I got a kick out the All D team list(s). It was like an NBA marketing promo/infomercial. Everybody who would be in the commercial somehow made it to the all D team.

I can’t wait for next season to happen so we can see what a bunch of idiots we all are.

@Colin:
Here’s to hoping we’re the idiots, and not Joe D! (points finger at langlois, ben gordon rumors)

MP: I even read in Ford’s chat today that he thinks gordon will end up in Det along with Boozer. He does say BG won’t make anywhere near the money he thought he was last year. Given he left 10M/yr on the plate, he appears to be in for a very rude surprise. And the fact the bulls are trying to keep him or get some pieces for him in a sign-n-trade.

Scary stuff, MB. I totally don’t understand that line of thinking…

@ mike payne: we already had that guy on the pistons before, he didn’t work out. I am willing to listen to other people’s ideas with an open mind, which I can see, you do not. You are set in ur ways and that’s cool, some people are like that. But for the record, I hate BJ Mullens just as much as you obviously hate Krstic. I can live with people’s opinions because after all, they are opinions. People have their own likes and dislikes. That said, I can’t understand why you would want to waste our hard-earned cap space on expiring players such as Marion and Odom. Now don’t get me wrong, if we can sign either of them to a 1 or 2 year deal, then I’m all for it, but you know, as well as they know, that this will most likely be their last paydays, so they want to get as much as they can for as long as they can. Marion is 31 and Odom will be 30 by the time next season rolls around. Marion might be able to be had, but Odom isn’t going anywhere. As it is right now he would take the minimum to stay with the Lakers to have a shot at another ring. Plus, all we could offer him is a backup role, which is what he has right now on a contender, so we all might as well forget about Odom, unless we are willing to pay out of our asses.

Now onto my choices as far as players:(M) stands for maybe

Draft (1st Round)

PG Ty Lawson(Y)-I think he’s a good all-around PG
PF DeJuan Blair(Y)-Keep his weight in check;take care of his knees
PF Tyler Hansbrough(Y)-Hardest working player of anyone in the draft
SF Earl Clark(Y)-Think Sharpe, only better and less sleepy
SF Austin Daye(N)-Think Prince, but softer
C B.J. Mullens(HELL NO)-BUST…need I say more?
SG Terrence Williams(Y)-Extremely athletic;WANTS to play here
PG Eric Maynor(Y)-Big Guard;Clutch shooter;Dumars kinda guy
PG Darren Collison(N)-Not sold on him making it in the NBA
PG Jeff Teague(M)-Loads of talent;can get same caliber player in 2nd
PG Johnny Flynn(N)-We already have Bynum

Draft (2nd Round)

SF DaJuan Summers(N)-Doesn’t play down low and not a good shooter
C Milan Macvan(M)-He’s a big body and I wouldn’t mind so much
SF Danny Green(Y)-Great all-around player;good value in the 2nd
PG Nando De Colo(Y)-Silky smooth combo-guard
PG Toney Douglas(Y)-Good 2nd round PG;Good shooter;excellent defense
PF Josh Heytvelt(N)-Lacks fundamentals;already injury concerns
SG Jodie Meeks(Y)-Excellent scorer;needs work on D;3-pt range
PG Nick Calathes(Y)-very fluid with R or L;solid PG;can play the 2
PG Patty Mills(M)-Great scorer;SG in a PG’s body;3:4 AST/TO ratio
SF Dionte Christmas(Y)-Great scorer;likes the 3-ball(but only 35%)
PF Taj Gibson(Y)-plays in post;slightly bigger, more aggressive Tay
PF Alade Aminu(Y)-6’10";still growing;big frame;lots of upside

Trade

C Chris Kaman(Y)-Legit center with decent post game;15/10 a night
SF Al Thornton(Y)-2nd yr player;good scorer;great athleticism
C Nenad Krstic(Y)CHEAP, legit center;only 25;can get 14/7 a night
SF Marvin Williams(Y)-good, young SF;can be signed relatively cheap
PF Josh Smith(N)-Too expensive with that kicker
PF David Lee(Y)-Can prolly be had cheap if NY is dumping salary
SF Wilson Chandler(Y)-2nd yr player;good, young, cheap, athletic SF

Free Agency

SF Trevor Ariza(Y)-Good, young SF; Great defender;improving shooter
PF Lamar Odom(M)-Only on a 1-2 year deal;still, highly unlikely
PF Carlos Boozer(Y)-Only 20/10 guy available in free agency
C Marcin Gortat(Y)-7 footer that plays his position;pretty cheap
PF Channing Frye(Y)-Good, young PF that just needs a chance
PF Charlie Villanueva(Y)-may be a SF in a PF’s body, but scores lots
SG Ben Gordon(Y)-I made all my arguments in an earlier post
PF Antonio McDyess(Y)-Of course, would love to have him back
PF Rasheed Wallace(Y)-If he can get over himself and sign cheap
PF Paul Millsap(Y)-Good, young PF that can be had before he peaks
SF Hedo Turkoglu(M)-The guy’s 30, so maybe on a 1-2 year deal
SF Ron Artest(Y)-He would be the up-in-yo-face player we need
PG Ramon Sessions(Y)-Good PG;good size;good shooter;may be cheap
PF Drew Gooden(Y)-He would be a good, young, cheap backup PF

I added a couple to the list and gave an explanation to all.

Call me an idiot because I like Ben Gordon. I already gave my arguments, but in case you missed it I’ll repost it just so I can see how much you guys blast me!

I think I may be the last man standing who actually likes Gordon. I don’t know what’s not to like? People say he’s a walking turnover, but through their first 5 years in the league, Gordon and RIP have almost identical TO numbers(BG-2.4;RIP-2.2). People also say that he is a volume shooter that doesn’t shoot a good percentage, well through their first 5 seasons, RIP averaged 43.8% on just under 15 shots a game, while Gordon averaged 43.5% on just under 15 shots per game(interesting). And then there’s the infamous, "He doesn’t play defense!" argument, which I think is totally garbage. Like I have said many times before, RIP was hardly a defensive stud when we got him. Hell, many people thought he was a liability on the floor for us even after we had him for a couple years. It wasn’t until the past few years that people actually considered him a somewhat decent defender. Gordon is 5 years younger and can actually create his own shot. He would help 2 areas of need in one player: dribble penetration and 3-point shooting(which, by the way, Gordon has the SLIGHT edge 41.4% to RIP’s god-awful 30% through their first 5 years). RIP has been a 40+% 3 point shooter only twice in his career, while Gordon has NEVER been below 40% from 3-point range.

I like RIP, and if we keep him I wouldn’t be mad at the Pistons organization, but to think that Gordon is a horrible player to get in replace of RIP is ludicrous. I would love to have Gordon and all of his supposed short-comings.

Oh and mike payne, no hard feelings, I just see now that there’s no reasoning with you on Krstic. I’m like that with Mullens.

I’m off to work now, I will see how much I get ripped when I get home! LOL

@KRONIK:
we already had [brezec] on the pistons before, he didn’t work out

Man, I was kidding!

That said, I can’t understand why you would want to waste our hard-earned cap space on expiring players such as Marion and Odom.

We gave Rasheed Wallace a 5-year, $54 million contract at age 30. If we can get Marion or Odom on mid-level money for 3-4 years, I don’t see what’s wrong with that.

Oh and mike payne, no hard feelings, I just see now that there’s no reasoning with you on Krstic. I’m like that with Mullens.

None taken. I’m hard-headedly passionate about my Pistons, and I don’t ever want to be a prick when I disagree with someone. I’ll buy you and anyone else here not named LawyerBoy a beer or three and have a blast. Since we’re all passionate about this team and have different opinions, it’s common to knock heads. It’s just how we handle it afterward. That said, cheers buddy raises glass

As for Krstic, I’ll be against anyone who is not a true rebounding, shot blocking, defensive center on this squad— especially one who has huge injury concerns. Doesn’t matter who that is, whether it’s Krstic or anyone else, I just don’t want that on my team. I want scoring at the 4, a defensively dominating big at the 5. If we sign Millsap, then it might be worth looking at someone with Krstic’s skill set. Until then, I’ll puff puff pass on Krstic until I’m blue on the face.

KJ, I’m actually with you on Gordon. He is a very hard worker. Obviously he has an inflated sense of value, but if he’s on a reasonable contract he’s worth it. He’s a good ball handler and a decent passer. His lack of size would be compensated somewhat by playing with Stuckey.

Mullens has bust written all over him. Then again, I thought that about Andrew Bynum, Brook Lopez, Spencer Hawes, and Eric Gordon.

I have a huge man-crush on Terrence Williams. Disclosure: previous draft crushes have included Acie Law and Julian Wright. I also hated the Maxiell and Stuckey picks at the time.

In my defense, I did think that Joe Alexander, Yi Jianlian,

MP: I think it’s because we have so much money that these pundits just say: Player X is asking for $XM and the only team that can afford it and Player X would be interested in is Det.

God I hope Joe D stays away from Gordon. We need to repair the holes upfront before we do anything.

@MP

I dunno; I have a hard time seeing you and Wolf Blitzer sharing beers. Sharing wives, yes, apparently, but not drinks.

“You don’t need to be a lock-down defender to be an All-Star. You don’t even need to be a marginally good defender, honestly.”

Wait. This is your argument in favor of Hansborough?

I like PsychoT as early in the second round. Or maybe even late first round (Afflalo territory). My guess is that his ceiling is Ronny Turiaf. If you’re really lucky, he’s Udonis Haslem.

I

@ MP: “I’m hard-headedly passionate about my Pistons, and I don’t ever want to be a prick when I disagree with someone. I’ll buy you and anyone else here not named LawyerBoy a beer or three and have a blast.”

I think we disagreed about Kristic. I’m in SoCal. You?? (Kidding)

I think all of us here are passionate piston fans, well, at least most of us. I think that’s what makes the Pistons tick. It’s strictly Joe D. Some teams have ownership (hawks), GM/coaches and a combo when deciding trades, drafts, cuts, etc. At least this way we can all point the finger at Joe if something goes haywire.

As for the 15th and choosing between Lawson and Psycho T: I’d take T. He fills a need we have right now, will fill a need in the future (serviceable 10/10 guy) and we’ve got our PG of the future in Stuck and MFWB in some sort of capacity.

If I’m Joe D, I let every agent know that before you sign with team A, gimme a call. . . . perhaps we can work something out.

@Birdman:
I have a hard time seeing you and Wolf Blitzer sharing beers.

Good point, don’t know why he’s always all over my jock. Kind of like a leg-humping chihuahua. Harmless, but annoying.

@MB:
I think it’s because we have so much money that these pundits just say:

Good point, and I hope you’re right. I’ve seen a lot of the “well, the Pistons can afford Hedo, so they must be interested” and “the Pistons want to trade Hamilton” when there’s no truth behind it. Retarded, but I rest easy knowing that we DBBers are smarter and have better ideas than most of the mediatools.

“As for the 15th and choosing between Lawson and Psycho T: I’d take T. He fills a need we have right now, will fill a need in the future (serviceable 10/10 guy) and we’ve got our PG of the future in Stuck and MFWB in some sort of capacity.”

I agree. Plus, I think there’s a much better that T’s is better than Maxiell, then Lawson being better than MFWB.

Also, I’ve always like Darius Songaila’s game as a backup. If T can be that, I wouldn’t mind the Pistons taking him.

Psycho-T = David Lee – 3 years + (higher offensive ceiling + ability to create contact and get to the line at an extraordinary rate [and make said freethrows at a fantastic clip])

I don’t have a problem with Gordon at 7 to 8 mil a yr he’s a damn good finisher and he can shoot the three like no tommorow ,I wouldn’t mind if we signed him to a front loaded contract maybe a 4yr 9-8-7.5 7mil type of thing,but we’d have to trade Rip to make this happen which is why I still like the Rip to Utah for Boozer trade even if we have to throw in a second round pick to do it,then we still have 8 to 11 mil left if joe does the okc trade to go after Gortat maybe another 6to 7 mil leaving us with 2 to 4 mil left which is a problem because I ‘d reaaly like to get Marvin Williams .Ah well one can dream , can’t wait til draft night ,by the way if we don’t trade the 15 I want Hansbrough.

Defor: BG @ 7-8M I like. My fear with a declining contract is if he lights it up, he doesn’t have the best rep for moving past it and just playing.

Trading Rip away for Boozer also makes sense, expecially for Utah. Delta in money will be about 2-4 depending on what Boozer would sign for. I wouldn’t do it if he doesn’t sign long term before the trade.

@MB:
I agree re: BG on a cheaper contract. $7 mil for Ben Gordon and I’d be on board easy. Still, I’d prefer we keep Rip, but I’m not going to burn my Dumars jersey if he decides to sign Gordon on the cheap.

The reason I mention signing BG on a frontloaded contract is we could get him just under 8mil a yr. average and he could still save face by getting close to 10 mil the first yr. as to the Boozer Hamilton trade it seems like we could get this done with Utah if they really want to move him ,another possibility would be to swap Tay with Rip in the trade since I,ve been reading rumors that Utah wants to trade kirilenko, with Tay having a shorter contract they might go for that . of course we ’d have to throw in Kwame in a sign and trade with Orlando for Gortat to free up enough space to sign marvin Williams damn I wish I could make this work for real.

WOW!!! Not only do I NOT get blasted, I actually get a couple people to admit that they still like BG and I get offered some beers(trust me I can use some after work, which explains my love for Mary Jane)! I could have sworn that I was the only one that still liked, and wanted, Ben Gordon. I don’t think we can get him on a front-loaded contract(not sure if I have even heard of one in basketball) and I don’t know if we could get him for $7-$8 mil, but that would be awesome! I do think that it won’t cost more than $10 mil per to get him though.

As for all of these sign-and-trade scenarios, really, they don’t happen too often. The Knicks have talked about doing a sign and trade with David Lee because they have a feeling they might lose him for nothing.

Speaking of David Lee, if Hansbrough is David Lee – 3 years + higher offensive ceiling + ability to create contact + get to the line + make his free throws…SIGN ME UP!!! Hell, I might even trade up just to ensure I get the guy. In all seriosness though, I wouldn’t mind having Tyler, I just don’t know if he will be a David Lee, it’s still too early to tell, but I do like his heart, and I can’t say that about too many guys in the NBA nowadays.

a couple people to admit that they still like BG

nobody “admitted” they like BG, only that they’d accept him if he came on the very cheap— i.e. several million less than he turned Chicago down for before this season. If he comes with a $7 million price tag, it could be worth exploring deals for Rip (although I’d still prefer to keep Rip)

damn I couldn’t even have a moment

This is kinda off topic, but how come I never see anyone from here posting on the pistons website Posting Up?

damn I couldn’t even have a moment

Naw, man— there’s a clear difference between liking ben gordon and wanting him as a piston. Example— I used to love, love Tracy McGrady, but I want him nowhere near the red, white and royal blue. I like ben gordon, but I’ve never wanted him on my team due to his inflated self worth and poor defensive skill set. But at the right price, a realistic price, he can help many teams in this league. I don’t think he is big enough of a person to bring that to Detroit, but I’ll gladly be proven wrong if the price is right.

I’m a broken record on this — and I would be even if MP and I were sharing a beer — but my problem with Ben Gordon is that I continue to think that the Pistons should be focused on getting two new, quality bigs. That is a tall — forgive the lame semi-pun — order. After that, we need a backup SF, and I don’t see Gordon in that role either.

I’m optimistic in that I think we’re fine at the guard position, and that Tay is still an elite SF. But we need two starting bigs. I can’t believe ‘Sheed will be here next year, I love Dyess but he should come off the bench, and KwaMirMax don’t seem like starters on a championship contending team (OK, maybe if we got Bosh we could pair him with Kwame, but still. . . .).

So the question isn’t whether Gordon is a good guard or not; we shouldn’t be wasting time fiddling with our backcourt.

Ben Gordon’s agent reportedly is telling the Bulls that Gordon has an $11M promise from the Pistons. $11M!! Are you kidding me? Let us all pray together that Ben Gordon’s agent is making stuff up.

The report, taken from HoopsHype:

I haven’t heard they are, and General Manager Gar Forman has not come off his stance that he wants to bring Gordon back. But I also heard that Gordon’s agent allegedly has been saying he has an $11 million promise from the Pistons. This could go with the promise I received to play giving me a chance to win the lottery. I’ve never fully understood the supposed Pistons interest. Not because teams don’t like Gordon. But because the Pistons have Rodney Stuckey, not a true point guard, and Richard Hamilton. Though the rumors supposedly are the Pistons would trade Hamilton. Though why trade a 6-7 shooting guard to accommodate one maybe a half foot shorter? Though I never say never in the NBA, as Phil Jackson taught me. And Michael. Bulls.com

Whoops, just saw that MB in SC was all over this an hour before me in a different thread. Sorry about that. It’s still terrifying, though the source is dubious.

+100 Toledo Joe

The rumor floating around (from the other thread) is that Ben Gordon’s camp is telling people they have an $11mil/yr commitment from the Pistons. This sounds to me like an agent just doing his job, drumming up interest and setting some type of standard for the type of money he’s asking. But if there’s even a SLIVER of truth to this… I don’t even want to think about it. I might have just spit up a little.

Does anyone get the feeling that Joe D still has a massive man-crush on “Isaiah Thomas the Player?” I feel like he really wants to replicate that Bad Boys backcourt, even though the personnel either doesn’t exist in the current crop of NBA players or they’re just vastly unattainable. The only guy close to Zeke currently is Chris Paul (unavailable), and I don’t think there’s anyone in the league with Joe D’s old skillset— 20 ppg/elite defender… It just seems like we’re always one of the teams “in the running” for whatever sub-6’3" scorers are available at a given time. I don’t get it.

@ B Higgins: No apology neccesary. I claim no ownership. Especially if we sign him to ~10+M/yr. lol

Given the fact that you can’t begin negotiations until 1-Jul, I think it’s the agent drumming up interest. BG ain’t getting 11M. If Joe D does do that deal and doesn’t DRASTICALLY improve our front court either thru sign-n-trades, trades, signings, etc., get me a ticket off the piston express for awhile.

I’m with Toledo Joe: Our pressing need is bigs first. Bigs second. And bigs third. Watching the two Conf chip rounds, each of those teams had big front lines. The thing that scares the bejesus out of me is a Gordon signing and a Tay trade, we’re back to small ball again with Rip at the 3. It’s a nice change of pace for 10 mins a game or something.

Plus, if BG is worth ~10-11M/yr, what is Hedo worth? And what’s the point from his agent? Is Chi really going to offer him 11M after he turned down 9M and 10M the last two years to keep him? Folks will have Paxson’s head since he basically retreated on the Gasol trade and probably could have had Amare (both according to “unconfirmed sources” lol). They’ve got Rose, Hinrich, Salmons and would sign BG? Supposedly TT is on the block, Miller has an expiring contract and they get Deng back next year. Does Del Negro plan on using MCIAFI small ball?

Well, VDN isn’t much higher than MC on the IAFI scale.

While I am totally with TJ’s view that our concentration should be on two championship level big men, one a banger and one a 20-10 guy, since there’s actual dollars and cents regarding Gordon I’ll weigh in with my two cents: Not for $11 million a year, not for $7 million a year, not for two cents a year, I do not want Ben Gordon on this team.

Would I be a fair weather fan if I stopped watching Pistons basketball if Joe D. signs Ben Gordon to an $11 million deal? I cannot support that, and would concrete my conspiracy theory that John Hammond was the brains behind the Pistons resurgence. I’m not claiming that yet, but I don’t know how I’d handle this, I really don’t.

A couple interesting nuggets here:

From Chad Ford:
I don’t know how they can (Keep Odom and Ariza). From what my sources are telling me, they are absolutely keeping Trevor Ariza. I think Odom will come down to what he’s looking at as far as amount and length of contract. Lots of teams would be interest in Ariza including the Blazers and Pistons … two teams with cap room. I think Odom may have to do the midlevel thing unless the Pistons come through with more money. There just aren’t a lot of teams with lots of cap room this year.

From Orlando Sentinel:
By the way, Polish commentator Wojciech Michalowicz said in his country people don’t call Marcin Gortat the “Polish Hammer.” “Hammer means you’re not a smart guy,” Michalowicz said. “We call him the Polish Hurricane.”

Also from Orlando Sentinel:
“We’ve always avoided the tax, but winning has a crazy effect on people,” Magic President Bob Vander Weide admitted. “The (DeVos) family (which owns the team) is having fun right now. I don’t think anyone has a willingness to stay in tax for 10 years, but to go in for a few years to ride this out, I don’t think that’s threatening to our family short term.”

My thoughts:
*Looks like QD’s Odom/Boozer lineup could be realistic.

*Why would people in Poland refer to Gortat as the “Polish Hurricane”? Wouldn’t just “The Hurricane” be sufficient? Wouldn’t that would be like calling Gary Payton “The American Glove” or Karl Malone “The American Mailman”…?

*Does this make Gortat more or less available? I would think if they resigned Hedo, they would let Gortat walk…but I dunno…

@ToledoJoe:
I’m a broken record on this — and I would be even if MP and I were sharing a beer

And I’d be raising my glass in cheers every time. After all, my preferred plan of action is about the same, but I can’t call Tay and elite SF due to his playoff performance the last three seasons. Otherwise, I’m with you all the way.

MP, I’d be right there with ya – but I think we’d still end up watching the games even if we didn’t want to, only bitching A LOT.

You mean, just like this year?

@ Mike Payne: Yes, you would be. Franchises make stupid decisions all the time, no one is right 100% of the time. I absolutely HATED Joe for drafting Darko, but I had to live with it because I’m a Piston. There are worse things than signing Ben Gordon to an $11 mil per year contract, like signing Dan Gadzuric to some lucrative deal that has him getting paid over $6 mil this year to have courtside seats. That said though, this rumor is 100% FALSE. It is against the rules to negotiate with players until after July 1st, and I don’t think Joe is going to break the rules in such a big offseason. It is only BG’s agent doing his job(like others have said) and peeking interest in his client.

I also agree with shinons though, i bet you would still be watching…but if you did stop watching, then yes you would be a fairweather fan

@Shinons:
Yeah, absolutely… crying into our beers instead of celebrating with them.

@Birdman:
Totally!

Shinons: LOL at the question of why people in Poland would call Gortat the “Polish” anything.

MP: OK, OK, calling Tay “elite” might be a stretch. But I said I was optimistic about everyone except our bigs. More seriously, I’ve been a broken record even long (four years or so) about Detroit’s need to get a decent backup SF. I think the minutes have taken a big toll on Tay. If Detroit had had somebody like Pietrus who could come in and play effectively on both ends for 15+ minutes a night, I think Detroit would have more than one ’ship in this era.

i don’t think i would say tayshaun is an elite small forward. maybe i would have said that a few years ago but i think he is worn down now. maybe he will be back to form after all the rest he gets this summer.

@ToledoJoe:
Absolutely re: solid backup at the 3. Our backcourt is fully serviceable, can contend with any backcourt in the East as it stands today. Hell, maybe Tayshaun can become that solid back up in a season or two— maybe we can snag Azubuike next season as our starting 3 with Tay behind him, 20 minutes a night at the 3 and spot up minutes at other positions. I’d be thrilled if we could do that. This would rock my world:

Stuckey/Bynum
Hamilton/Azubuike/Afflalo
Azubuike/Prince/Afflalo
Boozer/Maxiell/Prince
Gortat/Brown/MattWatson

Toledo Joe, I submit to you Lamar Odom as backup SF and backup PF. Boozer at starting PF. And hopefully there’s still enough money to make a run at Gortat.

As for Ariza/Odom: Ariza was at ~3M and Odom at ~14M. That’s 17M combined and they aren’t in the lux tax this year. I read where suppose they offer Ariza 7M and Odom 9M and sign S. Brown to a 1M contract. Plus, the Lakers make money. And they’ll make a ton more in chip memorabilia this year.

Additionally, the lux tax is sent back to teams that did not exceed the cap. However, with so many teams trying to get under the threshold, the payout given back to teams will be much smaller. This means that exceeding the lux tax will not be as painful because teams that don’t get a payout back are actually “losing” less money than they would have in the past.

Where does all this go? The Lakers will keep Ariza and Odom would be a fool to take 11M from someone not competing for a chip when he could make 9M and for the next 2-4 years play for basically the favorites to win it all each year. The guy has made over 50M from his last contract. Plus, there’s that LA weather baby!!

@MP I see what you did there.

MBinSoCal, I’m pretty sure the Lakers were in Luxury Tax land this season. The Pistons got under barely by unloading Alex Acker. And the Lakers had a bit more payroll.

Next year, because of Bynum’s 10million raise, they have 74 million for 8 players (and the Luxury Tax threshold is supposed to go down for next season). You’re required to have at least 13 players.

Signing Ariza and Odom to 7mil and 9mil could put them 18mil over, adding another 18mil to their payroll. That being said, it’s a rich franchise and they should do it.

is the dig on gordon just that he can’t play defense? that’s my only problem with him. and i don’t know why he’s not a good defender. he’s got great length and he’s quick as shit.

@MF Birdman:
Side note, I think it was Skylar who recently referred to me as MFMP in jest, and I thought it was awesome. I think, in honor of MFWB, that we should use that title as a sign of respect here. So henceforth, I’m gonna add that title in respect to the MFQD’s, the MFMB’s, the MFMW’s and everyone else whose names are not easily reflected in initials.

but re: “I see what you did there.” MFMW is eye-to-eye with Rip Hamilton. While he may not be our backup center, he’d be my first pick in any pickup game— I just hope he can bebound.

Quick Darshan:

I would take that, although I still dream of getting Bosh and would prefer (a healthy) Kaman to Boozer or Odom. The point for me though, is getting TWO (2) quality bigs, and I think Boozer and Odom both qualify.

@ Mike Payne: Why such a man crush on Azubuike? I mean the guy is good, I will give you that, but he puts up about the same numbers as Tayshaun. He’s smaller doesn’t play as good of defense as Tay. I like that he is 4 years younger though, and that he still has room to improve. I just don’t see why you would be quick to throw Tay to the bench if we got him. Tay has put in his time(aside from his rookie year, he has only missed 3 games his entire career!), and if we did have Azubuike and Tay, I would have to have Tay starting…until his contract was up and then we could let him walk and reap the cap space benefits.

Matt Watson can ball huh? Even though I’m a bit stocky I’m a beast down low and from 3-point range. I was never the tallest but I knew how to throw my weight around under the rim, and when players would fade off me, I would drift to the corner and rain ’em down all day long!

Heck, I’d be willing to set screens for Rip all day. Of course, that is about my only discernible basketball skill, since I’m slow, short, and can neither shoot nor dribble.

@JackDutch

Living in Chicago, I have to hear about the Bulls all the time. And everybody— EVERYBODY— hates Ben Gordon. Not one Bulls fan I know wants to keep him around. I think the general consensus is that he has exceedingly poor and untimely shot selection— i.e. contested 3’s in the last two minutes, not hitting the open man, etc. etc.

In my experience watching him though, I’ve always thought he was one of the most clutch shooters in the NBA and easily one of the top 5 “finishers” (clutch-time scorers). Fuck, he single-handedly beat us twice this year in two close games. He makes 90% of his FT’s and ALWAYS gets to the line at the end of games (evidenced by the 4pt play that beat us in January). He gets “superstar” calls (why? not sure, but he does). He’s a much better driver and finisher than he gets credit for; defensively, he’s very long for his height and EXTREMELY quick, so as long as we have good team defense I can’t see him hurting us. Plus, and this is an undeniable fact, he’s one of the top 3pt shooters in the game— quick release, high percentage, INFINITE range (seriously, “JJ Redick at Duke” type of range), and somehow draws more fouls on 3pt shots than anybody else in the league it seems.

Again, the main knock is that he’s a “black hole” and has poor shot selection (per my friends in the Windy City). But this is D-Town— haven’t we made our living by picking up other people’s garbage and turning it into awesome-ness?

For the right price, I’ve always been a fan of Gordon. For the right price.

FOR THE RIGHT PRICE.

(for the right price)

I don’t buy the black hole thing. He was the only finisher they had in Chicago til derrick rose came. Now that BG is moving on Rose can assume that role. Plus, BG has averaged 3 APG over his career, while RIP has averaged 3.4, so we wouldn’t be losing too much.

@KRONIK:
Why such a man crush on Azubuike?

First, the problem:
Tayshaun Prince cannot score when he has a difficult defensive assignment. This is nearly irrefutable. In the last three season-ending playoff series, Prince has averaged 26%, 32% and 24% shooting. I’ve contended since the season ended that after our need for a scoring big, we need a SF that is at least “good” on defense and who can at least maintain their scoring averages into the playoffs.

Problem B: we need 3 point shooting, if we can get both of the above needs (good defense, no series-wide scoring droughts), I’d love to get a 3-point wing player as well.

Second, the comparison:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=azubuke01&y1=2009&p2=princta01&y2=2009

Notes:
- Kelenna Azubuike shot 45% (!!!) from three this season on 210 attempts. (factor that into how many games we lost this season by a couple points)
- Defensively, Azubuike is not a noteable downgrade from Prince. He gives up 2" of height, but has more bulk, speed and strength than Tayshaun.
- Azubuike is a better, more efficient scorer, with more range than Tayshaun; is better at slashing and creating his own shot inside and converts at a higher rate
- Azubuike draws more fouls and shoots better at the stripe

Most noteably:
Joe Dumars built the Pistons Renaissance on under-the-radar players who had much untapped potential and a work ethic that fit his team’s blue collar image. Ben Wallace, Chauncey Billups, Tayshaun Prince and even Rasheed were examples of this.

Kelenna Azubuike is one of these players. He only started 51 games under the skizophrenic lineups of Don Nelson this year. He recorded 32mpg, but can be relied on for more. I believe with his age, versatile skill set, defensive ability and offensive prowess, Azubuike can be part of a future core of the next Pistons Renaissance.

Next summer, amidst the big free agent news, expect there to be a LOT of talk about Azubuike. He’ll be called a sleeper, the media will laud his stats and potential. As is often very true on DBB (see: Joel’s preference of Marcin Gortat, then everyone under the sun catching on a month or two later), we’re on to the next big thing before the media.

I’m not saying Azubuike is that next big thing, but I do feel he could be the SF core player we need for the next five years.

I think the general consensus is that he has exceedingly poor and untimely shot selection– i.e. contested 3’s in the last two minutes, not hitting the open man, etc. etc.
In my experience watching him though, I’ve always thought he was one of the most clutch shooters in the NBA and easily one of the top 5 "finishers" (clutch-time scorers). Fuck, he single-handedly beat us twice this year in two close games.

My not wanting Gordon stems from mostly subjective thoughts – I don’t think he’d fit and he doesn’t seem like a Piston to me. But the more concrete reasons are summed up nicely here by Joel. There are too many times that I see Gordon shoot his team out of a game trying to be a hero. I HATE that. He goes for the “single-handedly beat them” bullshit and more often than not he single-handedly costs his team the game. I was fuming watching Gordon blow game 7 of the Boston-Chicago series, swearing all sorts of stuff if he ever wore a Pistons jersey. I understand why some would want him and don’t begrudge them their opinion, his game just seems to push my buttons.

@Kronik:
Matt Watson can ball huh?

I don’t know if he can ball or not, never played with him (I sure as hell can’t ball to save my life). If he were standing next to Rip, though, they’d be eye to eye.

Azbuike’s career numbers against Cleveland:
4 games, 18 mpg, 29% fg%, 25% 3pt%, 5 ppg

Azbuike’s career numbers against Boston:
6 games, 21 mpg, 26.3% fg%, 4.5 ppg

I know you’ve got your opinion on Tay, but if we’re looking to replace him with a guy who is more successful against those teams that Tay struggled against…

@ Mike Payne: He gives up 4" of height, he’s only 6’5" and Tay is 6’9". He does a more solid build though. I wouldn’t mind having him, but have you ever thought about maybe he is just a product of nellie’s system? I seen him play a few times at Kentucky so I know the guy has skill, but I’m just not sure at how well he plays now. I haven’t had a chance to see many GSW games. If you think he is good enough to be our SF of the future I think I need to do some more research on him.

Azbuike’s career numbers against Cleveland:
4 games, 18 mpg, 29% fg%, 25% 3pt%, 5 ppg

Azbuike’s career numbers against Boston:
6 games, 21 mpg, 26.3% fg%, 4.5 ppg

Yuck, I won’t even look it up but I’m willing to bet Tay, and Marvin Williams, have better numbers than that. Marvin Williams is the SF of the future I would like to get in free agency. Otherwise I like Thornton and Wilson Chandler if we do a trade with the Clips or Knicks.

@Shinons:
Wow. I just completely did a 180 on Azubuike. Fuck. That. Thanks for pointing that out man.

@KRONIK:
Williams has done better against both, but his numbers will be colored by his injuries in the playoffs this year against Cleveland. He barely played, and when he did, his shot was off due to his injured wrist.

Otherwise, he’s solid. I’ve been ringing the Williams bell all summer, hoping it could work out— but I’d rather spend that $7 million toward our 4 and 5 than a change of Tay for now.

BEN GORDON FT… RP!

@ QD: I stand corrected. But if they were in lux tax this season, they still made money from what I understand the last 3 seasons. Take extra income regarding playoff games and memorebilia (sp) this season and at worst you’re probably talking about a “push” for next season regarding the lux tax.

Pay 80M in salaries, take a 10M dollar lux tax hit and all you have to do is really make 10M from playoff games and gear, assuming you’re breaking even at the end of the season, everything else being equal.

Christ, they probably made 10M from those little fucking car flags I’ve seen in the last 2 weeks.

Here are Williams’ career splits:
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3928/splits?year=career&type=Fielding

Pretty darn good against our contenders.

MBinSoCal, I agree. They shouldn’t worry payroll. I guess we’ll see if the younger Buss’s are cheaper than their old man.

MP, I wouldn’t call that the kiss of death on Azubuike. The sample size isn’t all that small, but I’m not sure it’s too realistic to expect to figure out LBJ in 4 chances. Your beef of Tay disappearing against tough defensive matchups, Azubuike’s solid against the Western Conference teams that have a tough SF or SG (Denver, Lakers, Houston, OKC). I’d say the jury’s out until we get a chance to see how he plays Cle/Bos live. Might be something misleading in the numbers – bad strategy by Nellie, injury, off night, etc.

Personally, I’d just like to have him on the team so I could refer to him as Azbutt.

More fuel for the Odom at SF fire, upon which I agree fully with MFQD:
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3327/splits;ylt=AuyS.tTa6go2j8EevV.BlhYPKB4

Odom is a bad ass against BOS, CLE. Note, however, that Odom was a supersub this season, moving between 3 and 4 likely against bench players as much as starters. Conversely, however, Lebron James performed the worst against the Lakers this season, shooting 31.1% in two games (that I dont’ remember well enough to note how LA defended Bron). It’d be interesting to know how much Odom had to do with that, if at all.

Odom started at PF in one of those games with Gasol at the five:
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/boxscore;_ylt=Apsly1rYkAFDfHIIta5uyMtYPKB4?gid=2009020805

And dominated Garnett in another start:
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/boxscore;_ylt=AqrhDAM.mEjULoix0PELCc1YPKB4?gid=2009020502

I’m all about the Boozer/Odom acquisitions.

I’d actually prefer we go with KwaMaxMir at the 5 than resigning Dyess with that lineup though. I think that for Tay to be effective defensively, we’re going to need big men who protect the rim. As much as I love Dyess, he didn’t do that very well last year.

MPG as starter: 34
MPG as sub: 26

PPG as starter: 14
PPG as sub: 9.5

APG as starter: 2.8
APG as sub: 2.5

RPG as starter: 11.2
RPG as sub: 6.1

When you play 8 less mpg, I’d expect to see a drop from 14 to 10 points or maybe .5 less assists. Those make sense. But the rebounding numbers are ridiculous— clearly he works harder on the boards as a starter. 8 less mpg and almost 50% (!) fewer rebounds. If you watched the Lakers this year, this phenomenon was pretty obvious. HE DOESN’T WANT TO COME OFF THE BENCH. Sure, he just won a championship doing that, but he played BY FAR his best ball of the year as a starter. He started the entire month of February (the only month he started for its entirety) and put up 16.5 ppg and 13.4 rpg, with a streak of 4 games in a row with 17, 18, 19, and 20 boards and 4 more huge totals for the month (14, 17, 19, 14).

When he’s getting the PT, he’s one of the best rebounders in the league EASILY. But this is at the PF position. All those ridiculous stat lines are from the starting PF position.

@Joel:
Note that Odom came off the bench as an SF much of the time, which would explain the rebounding discrepancy.

If he were a Piston, I wouldn’t want him coming off the bench— I’d want him starting at the 3 if we sign Boozer, at the 4 if we don’t.

Joel, your stats show that his rebounding rate went down but his assist rate went up. That says to me that he had a different role when he came off the bench (that of facilitator) not that he tried less.

MP, are you sure about Odom that? 82games.com doesn’t have him as playing SF really at all this year, and hardly ever last year:
http://www.82games.com/0809/08LAL11.HTM

I’ve been wondering how accurate that is though. It seems odd to me. Going by those numbers has been why I’ve preferred Marion in that SF/PF role, but if you guys have seen Odom playing SF, I’d certainly trust your observations over that site.

@MP

Same here. I think he’s an absolute matchup nightmare for every starting 4 in the league. But have we discussed moving him to the 5 next to Boozer at the 4 and Tay at the 3?

6’9, 6’9, 6’10 - that’s a pretty big front line. The C and PF are both double-digit rebounders. And we’d without a doubt have the most versatile front-line in the entire league- that’s a fact. The main question is obviously whether or not Odom can handle guarding opposing C’s… maybe we start that lineup and then put in Kwame at the 6:00 mark?

Meh, I don’t really know how signing both Odom and Boozer works without putting Odom back into the “super-sub” role where I don’t think he wants nor deserves to be at this point. He’s basically Rasheed Wallace circa 2003— he’s a unique, underutilized talent (IMO) who has his final peak 3-4 years left for one good contract run. If we sign him, I want him to be our designated 4, which in my thinking forces to make a move for either Gortat or Kaman.

To me, it doesn’t matter who starts. I think Prince, Boozer and Odom can play 32 minutes each with Odom splitting time between both forward spots.

I’d also be happy with Rip, Stuckey and Bynum splitting all the guard minutes.

The danger with my Boozer/Odom scenario is finding someone to keep the Pistons from having to play Kwame more than 16 minutes.

@QD

His assist rate as a sub went down .4 assists per game in the 9 less minutes, which means over the same amount of playing time he might have averaged maybe .5 apg more as a sub. That’s not a big enough production jump for me to play the “different role” card. If his assist numbers were as lopsided as the rebound numbers in favor of the sub role, it would make more sense. But he’s just not assisting that much more and the rebounding absolutely falls off a cliff. He just doesn’t want to come off the bench. He finally bought into the role at the end of the year because he could smell the championship, which the Lakers, as constructed, couldn’t have won with him starting (because Bynum is COMPLETELY useless off the bench). But earlier in the season he sulked, was terse with reporters, even told Phil that he wasn’t happy with his role.

Not that I condone complaining. And clearly he “got with it” and did what they needed to do win. I’m just saying he is clearly and without a doubt a better player when he’s starting and getting big minutes against other starters.

Wonder if Portland would take Maxiell for Pryzbilla? Or if Indiana would take him for Jeff Foster?

Joel,

Damn you for making me bust out the math:

Assists/36min (starter): 2.96
Assists/36min (bench): 3.46
17% more

Rebounds/36min (starter): 11.86
Rebounds/36min (bench): 8.45
29% less

I think it’s debatable whether it proves my point or yours. There’s a tangible rise and fall in both cases. It should also be noted that he scored at a slightly less rate as a bench player. Does this mean he was less motivated to score coming off the bench?

I think he was just less motivated in general coming off the bench. He sulked. He didn’t play as hard. Like we all saw in the playoffs, he obviously figured out how to be mature and contribute in whatever role his coach saw fit. But he absolute tore the league up for the month of February, which coincidentally is the only month he started every game. He had one of the best single performances of the year in the game where LA gave Cleveland their first home loss. It was the loudest 28 points and most dominant 19 boards I think I’ve ever seen. Absolutely unstoppable.

I don’t think anyone wants to come off the bench. But, I think he handled it with class. I live in LA and I really didn’t hear a lot of grumbling except for people saying he was unhappy. I never heard him say anything directly.

It’s interesting that when he started he only played 34 minutes. Like I wrote above, I’d like him, Prince and Boozer to play 32 each.

I wouldn’t be surprised if he takes less money to stay in LA. But, if the price is right I could see him leaving too. It’s just a question of how much are the Lakers willing to pay him and how much they are willing to pay Ariza.

Can you imagine how excited Curry will be if the Pistons get Odom and his versatility? He could start a different lineup for every regular season game!

I got to wonder if we should just grab Odom play him at the 4 and grab Gortat and call it a day on these other free agents save as much cap space and our expiring contracts til the trade deadline teams are going to get very nervous about losing there superstars for nothing in 2010, i’m not saying we could get one to come here or even that we should, just that to make a superstar trade at the deadlinewill probably require a third team with cap space and expiring contracts and you never know who might shake lose to us at the dealine especially this yr.

@QD,

Can you imagine how excited Curry will be if the Pistons get Odom and his versatility? He could start a different lineup for every regular season game!

This depressed me greatly. However, if we went “big ball”, I think that would help us against Orlando and Cleveland.

And while I’m talking about Cleveland, why on Earth would they trade for Shaq? Why acquire a guy who can’t defend the pick and roll (which is a problem if you have to contend with Boston and to a lesser extent Orlando) and a guy who’s going to occupy more room in the paint than anybody else in the league when you have LeBron who is unfreakingstoppable going to the basket? I don’t really get it.

the shaq deal makes no sense to me. maybe its a right of passage or something for todays superstars. anyhow about the gordon black hole thing, he is a black hole. if you watched that celtics bulls series you could clearly see that rose was trying to run an offense and gordon was just undermining it every time the ball was passed to him. sure alot of times he made the shot, but alot of times he missed and most of those shots were highly contested hail mary kinda shots. i applauded him at the time for sticking it to the celts, because i hate them, but if he was on my team i would be flipping out at his shot selection. i haven’t seen alot of his game but that series made me leary despite his great performances.