Ben Gordon as The Microwave

Yeah, I’m sure Dumars would rather play Rip at SF then trade for Dampier.

But, Ben Gordon? No love for everyone’s favourite MF?

So essientally he wants to try the same move that failed for us last year with a younger but less talented smaller gaurd?

Come on prophecy_projectz…you calling Ben Gordon , Allen Iverson. This is a five man game..not a one man show and D-towns not made up of a bunch of D*&^ S#$%ers.

The burning question: who will be Ben Gordon’s Petey?

“So essientally he wants to try the same move that failed for us last year with a younger but less talented smaller gaurd?”

Small ball failed for a couple reasons. First, Michael Curry insisted on playing at the slowest pace in the league even though he was starting three guards. Second, we had nobody to space the floor. We had no scoring at the 4, and no three point threat in the backcourt.

Under quality coaching B. Gizzle will be the Sixth Man of the Year. ‘09/’10 stats: 18.5 ppg, 3 rpg, 2.5 apg, Definitely gonna warm up the “Microwave”

Does this mean Prince is on his way out of town? Rip can guard SFs but Prince can’t guard big men. Maybe Prince for Stoudamire?

I think Tayshaun’s the one to go. SF is all Dumars ever drafts and Tayshaun has the better trade value. Any team looking to dump a big man is looking to do it to cut salary. You don’t cut salary by adding a 31-year old SG that still has 3 years $36M or whatever left on his deal.

Gordon’s selling himself short (no pun intended). He’s better than Vinnie Johnson.

we may have to bring back the a classic: small ball poetry

Gordon is closer to Vinnie than Stuckey is to Isiah, that’s for sure.

BG is hella better then Iverson, Gordon is a dead eye shooter, and really can make the toughest of shots from any spot on the floor, i’m actually really esxcited to see him suit up, regardles of how skeptical i was about signing him.

Rotten Atom: that was a classic — thanks for reminding me.

Hey y’all – the Dolphin is free. Let’s get another SG/SF!

RANT:

I am coming around to the idea that John Hammond was the brains behind the operation. Let’s take a look at some recent events, shall we?

In last year’s draft, the Pistons select Walter Sharpe, who did nothing in college due to narcolepsy. This seems like a pick made by someone that is convinced they are smarter than everyone else.

Michael Curry, he of no head coaching experience, is hired as head coach. Although bebounds and sensurgency are preached, they are not followed through. Curry’s decisions have included: Tayshaun Prince as a power forward, Jason Maxiell: DNP-MCIAFI, sixth man Rip Hamilton.

Some of Curry’s rotation issues came from the Billups-Iverson trade. Chauncey, an underrated player due to his efficient but not showy play, was traded for a more famous player whose value came in an expiring contract, Fiverson ticket packages, and Petey. At least McDyess came back.

In this year’s draft, the Pistons take three small forwards. The first one tested as the least athletic player at the combine, is extremely skinny, got punked by Omri Cassipi, and failed to make his All-Conference first or second teams. On the plus side, he can shoot the three, block shots and rebound, which are generally good signs. Still available: a championship-winning, quick, smart, sweet-shooting point guard.
The second small forward is more of a combo forward, with inefficient scoring and poor rebounding. Still available: the best rebounder in college basketball.
The third small forward is Swedish. I’m Swedish, does that mean you’d draft me? Still available: Danny Green, a proven winner that does a lot of things well.
Another pick was a big, athletic, sweet-shooting SG, rated as a possible first rounder. This pick was sold. Instead of drafting players at different positions, ensuring some roster flexibility, the Pistons went into the free agent signing period with just two bigs under contract.

The Pistons were one of the few teams with cap space. Portland, Memphis, Oklahoma City, and Toronto were the others.
Detroit signs Charlie Villaneuva, a young power forward that needs the ball, doesn’t rebound all that well, fouls a lot, is uninterested in defense, and played a lot better in his contract year. He can spread the floor, though.
Detroit signs Ben Gordon, an undersized shooting guard that needs the ball, doesn’t rebound all that well, turns the ball over a lot, and is uninterested in defense. He can spread the floor, though. Incidentally, the Pistons pay Gordon an average of $11M/year. Of the other teams with cap room, only Toronto is indeed of a shooting guard. Chicago, Gordon’s prior team, did not even make an offer. Detroit was bidding against itself.
This puts the number of guards on the roster to five and the number of bigs to three.

Birdman, yeah, that about covers it. It makes you cringe to see it all together. Good summary.

Again, in my mind, the problem is: “[Dumars] is convinced he is smarter than everyone else.”

Dumars was a good GM in the days when he understood and accepted his limitations, and didn’t think he was outsmarting everyone all the time. Often he was a great GM. The job isn’t that hard: you use common sense, you keep your ears open to opportunities that might come up unexpectedly, and you’re not resistant to change if change will help you. Very occasionally you may gamble on a gut instinct and go against the grain, but way more often, nine times in ten, you’re better off using common sense. That’s how Dumars built the 2004 champions. He had two key principles in mind, defense and selflessness, and he modestly and patiently found pieces when they came available and plugged them into the system, never breaking the bank for any of them. The strategy wound up being a fantastic success.

What has changed since then, I think, is Dumars’s opinion of his own abilities. He has made several egregiously hubristic moves since 2004, but the most telling I think was the hiring of Michael Curry, an absolutely crazy and irresponsible decision that would have been witheringly mocked by media and fans had someone like Isiah Thomas done it. Dumars got away with it at the time because his track record as a GM was still good.

The “Hammond was the brains” hypothesis may be true. By all accounts Hammond is a really smart, evenhanded person. At the very least it is certain that Hammond was a moderating influence whom Dumars trusted and respected, and to whom he really listened.

It is never healthy for people in charge of things to have no one around who’s allowed and invited to call them on their crap when needed. From where I sit as a fan, it looks like Dumars has surrounded himself now with followers who aren’t as smart as Hammond and who even if they are smart don’t feel empowered to question seriously whatever Dumars wants to do. In fact, the Curry hire itself was a move to get rid of a source of organizational dissent. Dumars was trying install a guy on the bench who would do whatever he said. It was a horrible failure, and though I wish Michael Curry well professionally, that’s almost certainly for the best. Dumars needs to get more smart people into the Pistons organization who are able and willing to disagree with him. He needs to get back that culture of rigorous debate and respectful disagreement. Left to his own devices, caught up in his own hype, he’s failed in his job.

EAS Myyyyyooooplex!

Wow guys. I agree with some of your sentiment but disagree with a number. ok, if John Hammond was the brains of our operation then he’ll have Milwaukee competing within a year or two right? If not, then will you dismiss the notion of him being the brains of the operation? Because if he was then he can easily do it again right? Now don’t get me wrong, I’m not the ultimate JD apologist and don’t agree with every move. But nobody bats 1,000 guys. Bill you said JD ‘modestly and patiently’ built the championship squad. Well, lets be patient and let him try again. We’ve been down for 1 yr, 1 freaking yr. Are you kidding me? If people read this blindly, they’d think we’ve been down for 5-6 yrs. Jesus, 1 yr and we’re ready to let him have it.

Did you guys rip him when he could only turn Grant Hill into some unproven, small center named Ben Wallace or when he threw a decent size (at the time) contract at some journeyman named Billups? or how about when he gave up the scoring machine Stackhouse for Jordan’s trash named Hamilton? Wait, wait, I know you fliped your wigs when he drafted the toothpick from Kentucky known as Prince? I got one, I am certain you burned your season tickets when he traded for that damn maniac from Portland ‘Sheed? What’s the point fella’s???? Let it play out and lets see what happens. The free agent period just started and it may take until the trade deadline before he finished he changes for this season. In addition, trust me, we’re not rebuilding a championship team in one season, so it may take another off-season to add some more crafty moves.

He hasn’t broken the bank either. CV is a bargain at the numbers he put up last year. Nor did he on Ben Gordon. I’d like to review the list of 20 ppg scorers who don’t make $10-11M a year. I’m certain its fairly short. For the record, I think we need another good move for a big man. So Rip or Tay may need to go to make that happen. But really giving Joe a hard time right now when we haven’t seen what any of the 3 draft picks will do. Nor have we seen if Deron Washington is ready to contribute this year. That will be a feather in JD’s cap is he turns into a player. Also, lets not forget MFWB. He may be given a real shot this year and John Hammond didn’t bring him here either. He’ll, we haven’t seen Sharpe yet either and we’re criticizing that pick. If he doesn’t show anything this year, then all bets are off fella’s. You can let Joe have it.

Point being that building a championship sports team is like building a house or doing a major remodeling job. You can’t come in while the room has just got the dry wall up and concrete floors and say you hate it. Damn, let the contractor finish and paint the walls, lay the carpet, install the fixtures and start to decorate. Joe’s just gettiing started guys. Iverson was a flop move, but we knew that was a gamble anyway and the best part was the cap space. The room just has dry walll which isn’t even totally dry yet and bare concrete floors. Can we at least let the room start to come together and let Joe make some progress toward completion before we rip his ass a new one. OMG. Happy 4th of July.

Amen, E-Dub.

I agree 100% E-Double .There’s one maybe two G.M.‘s in this league I would take over Joe,Portlands and san antonio’s,and no GM. in the league that share’s his philosify about building a winner with no superstars I like what he’s done so far but its gonna take at least 3 yrs.before we get close to a finish product and thats with the right coach so lets cut the guy some slack and see what happens.

hear hear to E-double

(that’s what they say in the British parliament to express agreement… always liked the sound of it…)

i love the FA signings… Rip should be traded for a big… our window for 1-2 championships is within 3-5 years IMO.

first post BTW… long time reader.

Thank you E-Double. Some times I think people have completely unrealistic expectations. Last year we entered the season with a good, but aging roster that wasn’t capable of winning it all, especially in an improved East. Minus a Gasolesque heist, we weren’t making one trade that would put us over the top. The roster needed a remake. Here we are, less then one year later and people expect us to be completely reloaded with a new group of young studs who are championship caliber.

“Still available: a championship-winning, quick, smart, sweet-shooting point guard.
The second small forward is more of a combo forward, with inefficient scoring and poor rebounding. Still available: the best rebounder in college basketball.
The third small forward is Swedish. I’m Swedish, does that mean you’d draft me? Still available: Danny Green, a proven winner that does a lot of things well.”

Sean May and Raymond Felton also were championship winners.

E-Double, what do you say about the Curry hiring? Was it not one of the dumbest things any NBA GM has done in years? Was there any reason for it to happen?

I don’t think I really was all that nasty to Joe in that post. I said he was a great GM when he did sensible things and acted according to common sense, and that he his strategy in building the ‘04 team worked brilliantly. But he has made several big mistakes and very few good moves since then – really, the only really impactful addition he made to the roster since 2004 (in five full years) and before this week was Antonio McDyess, and he traded exactly the one untradeable player on the roster when he dumped Chauncey, and then he made a bad situation much worse last year by hiring Curry. That’s the situation. And I think a lot of the trouble today may be that lack of respectful dissent in the Pistons front office. That’s all I said. I don’t know how the fact that Joe had tons of success in building the 2004 team, at a time when he had a powerful and respected voice next to him in Hammond and a couple of vocal coaches in Carlisle and LB (and when Joe hadn’t yet been told by everyone that he was a genius), goes against the idea that he should have people around him now who are ready to question what he does and keep him honest. In fact it only becomes more important to have human B.S. detectors at hand when you’re in danger of believing yourself a genius.

E-Double, your post makes it sound like I’m some hysterical idiot who responds crazily to the bad things that happened this year with no knowledge or memory of the good things that happened five-plus years ago. I don’t think that’s at all fair to the tone or content of what I wrote.

Again, no one expects the team to be championship-contending. That wasn’t remotely what I said.

What I would have wanted is merely this: A few good moves in the last five years would have been nice. Responsible coaching hires would have been nice. Trading the right players to start the rebuilding would have been nice. Treating traded players professionally by telling them yourself that they’ve been traded (not leaving them to hear it from a teammate) would have been nice. And so on.

It’s not about being impatient for another winner. It’s about having consistently solid moves along the way.

And, sorry for the multiple posts in succession, but one more thing and I’m done, I promise -

I don’t like feeling like the font of negativity. It’s depressing to me. Joe Dumars will be the Pistons’ GM for a very long time, probably till he retires as an old man, and nothing anyone says on this little messageboard has even the smallest bearing whatsoever on anything. The new guys we’ve got, Gordon and Villanueva, even if they don’t address the team’s most important needs, seem like decent human beings, and they’re committed to being in Detroit. I hope it all works out somehow.

Given that Joe is going to be around for a long time, I, as a lifelong, can’t-help-it-if-I-wanted-to fan who badly wants the Pistons to be as successful as possible, hope that Joe will bring in a few more people to the front office who can give him honest advice and feedback, and who can keep his more extreme instincts in check. That’s all I was trying to say. I wasn’t trying to dive back into the tired depressing discussions of Joe’s mistakes.

Some of these criticisms are just a little ridiculous.

Ripping on Joe for drafting Sharpe in the 2nd round is one of them. How many players workout from round 2? Not very man, the only guys that have actually accomplished something in the NBA are Chalmers and Mbah a Moute. Seems like hating on Joe just for the sake of hating on him. Theres nothing to be upset about here.

Another is the criticism of this draft. Dejuan Blair is overweight, unathletic and has no ACL’s. Why no mention of that at all, why only mentioning his postive of being the best rebounder in college ball. Its a completely one sided argument. That again is aimed to criticize Joe just to criticize him.

@JJ: “How many players workout from round 2? Not very man, the only guys that have actually accomplished something in the NBA are Chalmers and Mbah a Moute.”

Ummm, Daniel Gibson, Paul Millsap, Gortat, Kyle Korver, Carlos Boozer, Mehmet Okur, Michael Redd, Ginobili, Rashard Lewis? To name a few…

what I don’t understand about the sharpe criticism is that joe actually traded out of the first round because he didn’t like the players available. he understood that he could get what he wanted a few spots down, so, instead of reaching, dealt DJ White for 2 second round prospects. I have heard people on here say he traded up for sharpe, and I was too lazy/late to correct them. so here you go. joe traded down for him.

It’s good to have a balanced arguement, so many thanks to E-Double for that. Too soon to tell if Dumars pulled some genius moves and rode that wave of success the whole time, or if he really is good at what he does and will do it again. But the roasting of Joe Dumars itself is as frustrating to read as it is to write, I think. And as far as Hammond being the brains, well, like people said, if the Bucks go deep into the playoffs for 5 years straight, then your theory may just have some merit. Personally I think it’s a collective effort.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AQn4TlHEnw&feature=related

From 1:05 on… absolutely took over the game. Listen to how silent the crowd is as the PA announcer says his name… “bennnnnnnn gordon for three”

Bill, my post wasn’t aimed at you totally. Your post was one of the more calm ones. I guess I was just responding to the Joe haters in general brotha. Not totally aimed at you man. I by no means tink you are a hysterical idiot. There are some on DBB but you definately, IMO, are not one of them. You are totally correct about the Curry hiring. I think it was a bad move and Joe admits that and moved immediately to correct it. Now as speculated, he could have kept Curry around another year or two just to save face. But he didn’t. He was a man about it and handled his business. I actually wanted Avery Johnson last year and want him again this year.

In regards to your mentioning of John Hammond, we’ll see what he does in Milwaukee. If he kicks ass and Joe flops this time around, then we can say he was the brains of the operation. But I think even mentioning that as a possibility is premature until he does something worth braging about in Milwaukee. Now with making few positive moves; lets review. Following the 2005 (just missed repeating) year, we came back the next year and kicked ass. Had the best record in the league and 4 all stars. How can you criticize any moves made to produce that result. Now we ran out of gas against Cleveland because we didn’t have a great bench like we did in 04. So Joe tries to focus on making a few tweaks with the bench vs anything major to mess up a 63 win team. I liked the Flip hiring. Even now, I still thought it was a good hiring. Who the hell knew ’Sheed and Ben were going to flake out on him. Now in 07 we failed again against Cleveland. I was ready to trade the whole damn team then, but once again, Joe hoped that tweaking bench pieces would do the trick. After failing in 08, he pulled the plug and started rebuilding.

Maybe Joe would have loved to trade someone else other than Chauncey but he viewed that as the best deal on the table. Maybe deals for other players wasn’t getting Joe’s gander up. Can we give him credit for not resigning Ben. Man, Ben fizzled out so fast it was freaking amazing. The only moves I will say I didn’t like was Nazir Muhammad (and he got moved quickly) and Curry (and he got fired quickly). Let’s go back to 2003 for a moment. We grabbed Darko and he turned out to be a bust. But truth be told, the word is almost every other GM in the league would admit that they had a hard on for Darko also. So its easy to sit back now and criticize. There’s a term known ass revisionist history. It’s easy to criticize Portland for taking Bowie over Jordan. Hell, they had a hall of fame shooting guard already. Why not try to compliment him with a good big man. (Please see O’neal/Bryant & O’neal/Wade, Magic/Kareem).

Personally, I don’t criticize moves on the back end because many things can go wrong. If we somehow ended up this year with Kobey, Dwight Howard, and Lebron, but some freaking how we don’t win a Championship, does that mean they were bad moves??? If the logic makes sense on the front end but the end result isn’t what you wanted, then you keep trying. But I’m not going to rip you a new one if a move that seems to make sense doesn’t win a championship. But if its a flat out dumb move from the word go, then I’ll criticize and if it turns into a championship, then I’ll eat crow.

For those paying attention, Bill and I here are displaying how two GROWN MEN disagree but in a respectful way. Neither of us are calling each other assholes, idiots or douche bags just cause we don’t agree. We’re all on the same team and love the Pistons and should be able to disagree without being disagreeable (to quote MLK Jr.). Too often on DBB we start launching personal attacks on each other because we don’t agree on something. Lets save that energy to attack Celtic fans. LOL. Happy 4th Bill and all the DBB family. Gotta go BBQ now. Peace out guys.

@ Bill H.
your post did come off as condesending. when I look at the Mike Curry hiring. I saw it as a move like the AI experiment. If we win cool, If we dont it is only for a year. Lets remember that Bill Davison cosigned that move also. remember we still had money on the books that was due to Saunders, and after the Larry Brown thing. it was a nice cheap way to move forward while saving some $. any one who looks as last season as anything other than a transition year. Is not a true fan of the game, er uhm team. Dumars was saying heads were gonna roll for damn near 2 seasons. so now everyone panics.I wish CB coulda retired here. but if you notice after every series that we lost, he was the one at the post game looking unaffected. quote “it is what it is” “maybe next year” " we just didnt get it done" he is a great player. but I hated that attitude. especially after Boston. no way in hell we should have lost that one.

Lol yeah I wish folks would shut up about the Darko thing, Lets not forget that Michael J. the best player ever. chose Kwame Brown. and they are not too many other Players turned Gms who even have half of the sucess that Dumars has acheieved. do you think Bird is happy where he at? but I bet pacer fans dont call for his head like some of our fans do for dumars.

Sorry for the long ass posts today guys. Just had a lot to say to make my point. I’ll try to be more concise in the future.

@ E-Dub
No, dude you are good, a breath of fresh air that is much needed duringa difficult time.

Happy 4th, E-Double.

Thanks for the Gordon for 42 link. It was pretty impressive. My main issue with Gordon was with the way the Pistons shut him down two years ago. My second is he is too short to play D.

But this post is encouraging; If Gordon does the sixth man thing for real the Pistons are going to be a team to contend with starting next year. Being in Illinois, I can also tell you that Gordon was pretty professional about the 6th man role for the Bulls when Skiles was coaching. Rip, Stuckey, Gordon, CV = a lot of points. It has been noted that that is too much volume shooting, but Gordon off the bench distributes it pretty well. I’m starting to get a bit hopeful.

E double what about Nazr Mohammad? What about Mateen Cleeves? What about Rodney White? What about letting Memo leave?

I’m not saying Joe should be fired, but you left out a big chunk of what he has screwed up on. You have to admit, he’s gone from great to subpar after 2005. What move did he do that has actually made the team better in that time span?

Also I’d like to see him draft better. He had Josh Howard available but took Delfino. He had Bass and Turiaf available, but he took Maxiell (productive, but not as useful). I like the Afflalo pick, he looks like a solid SG that can start 2-3 years down the road. But then he passes up Mario Chalmers and Luc Richard Mbah a Moute in favor of Walter Sharpe. You get the point.

Dumars deserves the opportunity to rebuild a championship caliber team. And he definitely was right to pull the plug, that team was clearly done; all of us here understood that was a transition year. But lets not forget that he also had plenty of opportunities to implement good parts along the way so we wouldn’t be in this position in the first place.

I think the one thing Dumars does best is cleaning up messes. I guarantee you that he still has at least a move or two still coming this year. I wouldn’t be surprised if this team wins at least 50 games with the right coach and a better front line. However what do we do from there? I’d like to start seeing some positive moves from now on. No more Nazr Mohammads, no more drafting players that don’t play in 10 games.

Lets be frank, in today’s game, you need at least 1 superstar to make it through the playoffs, possibly more to actually win in the finals. I think Avery Johnson can turn Stuckey into a Tony Parker like PG, but from there it’s up to Dumars to actually start drafting productive pieces and getting the free agents so that we have a team that’s very deep at all positions.

ok, more pet peeves about people complaining about Dumars moves.

1) Losing Okur. It was NOT POSSIBLE for Joe D to sign Okur because of a loophole that has since been closed. Not Joe’s fault.

2) Signing Nazr. Nazr was one of the only available centers for a team that badly needed one. As soon as Detroit didn’t need him, they sent him away for some cap flexibility. Doesn’t really seem like a net negative to me.

3) All of the drafting complaints. I already mentioned the Sharpe pick, and someone up there was talking about the Darko pick, and how EVERYONE thought Darko was amazing, plus he fit a need. Honestly, you can’t get EVERY pick right. http://sports.espn.go.com/nbadraft/d03/story?id=1573414

I think we have to remember sometimes that there are other GMs in the league, and they all have marginal intelligence otherwise they wouldn’t be in their positions. Not every trade has to be a steal, and Joe doesn’t have to lowball every free agent that comes in. Complain all you want about specific moves, but it is the big picture that matters, and so far, Dumars has succeeded pretty well in that. Lets give it another year or two before we declare him a complete failure, shall we?

actually, I didn’t even notice this about Chad Ford’s grades on that draft: The Pistons were the only team to get an A+ in it.

I’m sick of all this draft quibbling as well. It’s a big straw argument. Any Dumars bashers care to let me in on who is the great draft genius whose picks all turn out to be 10 year pros. Seriously, who is that GM? Heck, I can’t even put together a decent fantasy team together drafting people who are already in the NBA.

The only knock I have on the Sharpe pick was the fact that we SHOULD have picked DeAndre Jordan, the guy I wanted us to draft with our first round pick when he fell to us. And then again with our second round pick.

Ali: Just food for thought, but the only Pistons’ draft picks that contributed to the 2003-2004 title were Tay and Mehmet (unless you wanna count Lindsey despite it being a 2nd stint). A lot more players than those 2 allowed us to win and they weren’t acquired through the draft.

And as Drew pointed out, Joe had to let Mehmet go. It was a tough call, but ultimately appears to be the right one. His market value was huge for a sixth man at the time and Joe had to concentrate on securing more pieces of the core. We still did awesome for years without Mehmet. That was just a tough situation and Joe absolutely would’ve lost Sheed if he gave Mehmet 6 years and $50 million in the summer following the title. Until last year, for overall team success, Sheed was the better player to have around.

Even RC Buford traded Barbosa to the Suns on draft night in 2003 for a future 1st rounder. Buford then shipped that 1st rounder to NY as part of the deal to acquire Nazr Mohammed. That 30th pick overall in the 2005 draft? David Lee. After drafting Luis Scola and holding his rights for 5 years, Buford traded him for cheetos during the summer before his rookie season. Nobody’s perfect.

The guy drafting for the Spurs, that’s who. I don’t know how, but every year he seems to get a steal or 2.

But still out of the years Dumars has drafted, how many actual starters has he drafted? 3. Not impressed. Dumars has never operated through the draft. He has always made his moves through free agency or trades. Outside of Rodney Stuckey, name one successful franchise cornerstone he’s drafted. I don’t see why you guys keep making excuses for him. He needs to draft better because then you have a deeper rotation, and more assets to trade. Think of the 7 player Garnett swap – that move doesn’t happen without Al Jefferson (who was not drafted in the lottery). And don’t forget its the Leon Powes, Chris Andersens, Trevor Arizas, Vlade Divacs that turn a good team into a contender. Ok fair enough on Vlade Divac, that’s like a once in a franchise thing. Unless your name is San Antonio.

Also Drew I said that Dumars would return the team up to the top of the conference, I’ve got plenty of confidence that with another move or two, he has a 50 win team on his hands. I just don’t see a title coming without a true superstar or two.

Fair enough on the Barbosa thing. I’m not saying he has to be perfect, but you have to do a better job than he currently is for reasons I stated above

I should note that I don’t expect a superstar out of the bottom end of the draft, but I wouldn’t have minded if the Pistons tanked this season to get into the lottery and make a play at the 2010 free agency. Much more risky, and you could end up with nothing, but then again how do you expect to compete with LeBron or Wade+Bosh when they team up.

The Spurs????
http://www.databasebasketball.com/draft/draftteam.htm?tm=SAS&lg=N

So tell me then, where are Markota, Splitter, Printezis, Sato, and Karaulov? Beno Udrih in the first round ahead of Ariza and Duhon in the second?

That beats Detroit’s picks of the last 5 years?

Illinois Piston Lover: Thank you. I always thought Splitter would be very productive if he ever came over to the NBA though. He’ll only be 25 if he comes over at the start of the 2010-2011 season. If so, I think he’ll be at the very least, a legit NBA player.

Ali: RC Buford, the GM of the Spurs, is great at what he does (though it helps to inherit Duncan). However, the idea that the guy would hold onto Luis Scola’s rights from 2002-2007 (all while Scola played in Spain) and then dump them for next to nothing months before Scola’s NBA rookie campaign is questionable management at best. It’s only one move though and as I mentioned earlier, there are others. On the whole, Buford makes good decisions. So does Joe, really.

I’ve said from the start that I fully expect Joe to reconstruct a 50 win team. I just don’t see how this current roster can translate into a title contender when we don’t have any cap space nor do we have a super star.

All of us have things we don’t like about Joe’s drafting moves i’m not too happy about trading away budinger for very little .But the majority of us also see the positives of Joe Dumars there have only been 3 teams that have gone to the conference championship 6 times in a row , I really don’t care if he did it thru free agency or thru the draft he got it done.That team was a boneheaded move away by rasheed from winning 2 titles and being label a legite dynasty .I don’t mind people questioning Joe and pointing out his mistakes but at least have the open mindedness to admit his sucesses ,constantly beating the negativity drum is certainly not going to get him fired and quite frankly just makes me skip your post.

“But still out of the years Dumars has drafted, how many actual starters has he drafted? 3. Not impressed.”

Four, actually. Darko was a starter. Maxiell should really be starting somewhere, and I’d be willing to bet Amir will be starting in Milwaukee.

As for Hammond’s alleged genius, does anyone want to make a bet as to who will be the most productive player, between Austin Daye and Brandon Jennings? My money is on Daye.

“Outside of Rodney Stuckey, name one successful franchise cornerstone he’s drafted.”

Outside of Darko, which has been discussed to death, he has not had a draft position from which to draft a franchise cornerstone.

20/20 hindsight is nice but I’ll take my chances with Dumars’ judgement moving forward. The guy isn’t perfect but he isn’t afraid to fix something when it isn’t working and he has a knack for finding value and I love how he tries to construct a team. Being a Piston fan is like being an Arsenal fan in soccer, it’s maddening at times because there is an ideology that comes along with the play but it’s also a joy to watch your style prevail. The Pistons have been getting away from Detroit Basketball for awhile, even as they were still close to a shot at the Championship. Maybe they are farther away from a Championship but I think they are closer to Detroit Basketball and I’d rather follow them on that road then build through league-sanctioned heists like the Garnett/Gasol trades.

“Lets be frank, in today’s game, you need at least 1 superstar to make it through the playoffs, possibly more to actually win in the finals.”

Ali, if you believe this to be true, shouldn’t you try to draft potential stars over guaranteed backups/role players?

Sharpe is probably a bust. But, there was the potential for star talent which is more than you can say for even the FEW successful picks like Chalmers and Luc Richard.

Same with Daye. I’d take the chance of Daye being a star over the Ty Lawson’s of the world any day.

Once you have a couple stars, then you can start drafting safe (and really you probably shouldn’t then either).

kevin, don’t forget that he drafted Joe Alexander too, who looks to be on his way to Bustville.

@ Kevin s.
after “Rodney stuckey, name one sucessfull franchise cornerstone he’s drafted?” My argument for this one would be that he rarely drafts high enough to make a difference. most of the time when He selected high in the first round and came away with flops. He took the player that was projected to go to him. Rodney White, Mateen Cleeves. I remeber we were all excited about Mateen. I also think that Looking back Stuckey should have gone as a top ten pick. But really most of his picks have come during winning seasons. so His guess is just as good as yours or anybody elses with it being so late. there were plenty of times when he drafted. and because our roster was already set. that he just drafted projects. this year he has put an emphasis on character. you guys remember how crappy Mateen’s attitude was. How about when Rodney got caught with a gun? we all know that Darko as well as Amir had a high ceiling of potential. but they were lacking something character wise that prevented them from reaching that ceiling. I agree like someone mentioned. the Spurs gm does a good job in the draft. but you cant point to too many other guys if any.I like our standings under Dumars helm. Only the Spurs have done better since. And still Most of their help has come via trades and free agency, not the draft.

With portland losing out on Hedo maybe we should talk to them about a Tay for Przybilla and a throw in or two.

The problem for [Mark] Bartelstein and [David] Lee has been the power of the unknown — no one having a clear idea of whether the Knicks would match.

“Joe Dumars and I had a long talk, and he really liked David a lot. David would have been a major target for them but he said ‘Mark, if the Knicks match, I’ve lost Ben Gordon and everybody else I’m trying to get.’ So this is a very difficult situation to operate under,” Bartelstein said.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4306502

How aobut this trade with Portland…

http://www.realgm.com/src_tradechecker/3/

I’m not sure if the link will work so I will just tell ya…

We trade Tayshaun for Joel, Outlaw, and Bayless. We get our center, a SF and a backup PG for down the road. Not bad if I do say so myself.

oops, *about

Portland won’t trade Pryzbilla until they know Oden can handle the job.

As much as I like David Lee, theres something about Charlie V that has me rginking that this guy, who is a fantastic scorer already, could be on the cusp of being a really good player. As you Americans like to say; Pass me the Kool-Aid! (which tastes like crap btw)

rginking = thinking

That’s a lot of talent coming back from Portland for Prince. If Pryzbilla is on the market it’d be more likely he’s coming back with somebody like Martell Webster than Outlaw and Bayless.

Rob K:

Those guys are the EXCEPTION not the rule, only 1 maybe 2 of second rounders ever amount to anything. Its a little unrealistic to get upset for Joe D over 2nd rounders that don’t work out

As far as the center situation is concerned Deandre Jordan would be an interesting trade and would not probably take that much to swing. The search for centers around the league is sickeningly anemic.
Chandler – to the suns for wallace’s expiring contract probably.
Kaman- the dealing of z-bo renders that highly unlikly

I like the idea of trading Kwame for Haywood in DC with other odds and ends as Kwame is on an expiring contract next year it may entice them provided they are entranced by the shiny pieces in the 2010 fa class. We could then pick up a second large body to muscle Shaq and Howard and foul with impunity. Perplexing situation. Can’t wait to see how Jod handles it.

How much does Kaman have left on his contract? I thought it was big money for atleast 2-3 more years. Count me out.

Rip to Utah for Boozer would satisify me. Even if its only for one season and we let him walk.

Utah would never trade Rip for Boozer with their current financial situation. They want to unload salary, not have guaranteed long term contracts.

I think right now our best bet would be Tay for Przybilla straight up. That extra $7-8 mil in cap space could prove to be very useful down the road.

I personally would not draft for stars based purely off potential outside of the lottery. I would take guys that I know would for sure be rotation players that have some athleticism. Guys like Wayne Ellington or Courtney Lee, who will at the very least be solid rotation players, with the capability to put up big numbers. Manu Ginobili and Tony Parker didn’t come into the league as all stars, but they proved to be good scorers outside of the NBA and had speed and high basketball IQ to their advantage.

As for my superstar, if I can’t get him by drafting outside of the lottery, pull a Boston and trade the rotation players for a top level player.

As I suggested before, Rip and some picks for Boozer and CJ Miles might work. The Pistons have some cap space left. This would give Utah the ability to keep Milsap.

If Utah lets Milsap go this year, Boozer can hold them hostage next year, so it might be in their best interest to have a higher payroll for a year. They get some payroll relief next year with Harpring and Korver coming off the books.

Laughton – No bad mouthing Kool-Aid on the 4th of July.

We have around $4 mil left right now according to pistons powered, so yeah that may in fact work salary wise. But then the question is, does that trade make use better than getting Przybilla?

I say no, Boozer has a better interior offensive game, but he also plays no defense. You might as well get Troy Murphy as he rebounds, doesn’t play defense either, however he shoots 45% from 3.

In all objective, relative, rational analysis, Pistons fans have little to complain about. In his time Dumars has: (1) compiled a roster of likeable, quality players; (2) won a truckload of games; (3) had consistent playoff success; (4) taken calculated risks that either (a) succeed or (b) disappoint but are quickly remedied; (5) treated the media and fans with candour and integrity; and (most importantly) (6) built a strong brand for the franchise.

Slightly-off-topic-food-for-thought: What happens if the Billups trade never goes down and Iverson finishes his contract in Denver averaging 22ppg? What would his free agent value be now? Would Dumars—who was a fan of his game—unknowingly overpay him to come to Detroit for 3-5 years of mediocrity? Thank goodness this was a one-season trial and nothing else.

How aobut this trade with Portland…

Hey, as long as we’re on topic of trades that’ll never happen…

Rip and Kwame and Julian Wright (NO) to the Suns

Tay to the Hornets.

Amare’ (PHX) and Chandler (NO) to us.

Kool-Aid tastes like crap?! This coming from the land of Vegemite? God, Men At Work sucked. Silverchair, too.

And Mel Gibson. AC/DC was cool, though.

Why would Portland trade Bayless when they need a backup point guard?

Is Tay going to be the point forward in some hybrid MCIAFI offense that McMillan is running?

@QD:
As I suggested before, Rip and some picks for Boozer and CJ Miles might work. The Pistons have some cap space left. This would give Utah the ability to keep Milsap.

If we made that trade, Utah would still be over the lux tax BEFORE giving Millsap an upgrade. That trade would only save Utah $4.5 million (which would expend our cap), yet Utah is at ~$74.7 million for 2009-10 with the lux tax likely at $69.4 million. That trade still wouldn’t put them under the lux tax before even considering giving Millsap an offer. So why would Utah even consider that trade? They’re still damned if they do.

If Boozer moves, it’ll likely be to a team with more cap than us, and it’ll also likely be for picks not players— a la Camby from DEN to LAC. Chances are, Utah is straight fucked.

@TDP:
Kool-Aid tastes like crap?! This coming from the land of Vegemite? God, Men At Work sucked. Silverchair, too.

I lol’d. Laughton is my boy, Australia FTW, but that was pretty funny :)

“So why would Utah even consider that trade? They’re still damned if they do.”

If the don’t do it, they lose Milsap and then Boozer will demand a max contract next year because he’ll have them by the balls.

Also, they lost in the first round, so it will be hard to get fans excited about bringing back the same team (minus Milsap).

They take a payroll hit this year, but Rip adds a dynamic component to their team and fits right in with their motion offense.

Utah’s best bet is to dump him to a team under the cap, but if I’m OKC or Memphis, I say no deal because I’m probably making an offer to Milsap and don’t want you to be able to match it.

“As you Americans like to say; Pass me the Kool-Aid! (which tastes like crap btw)”

-Cordial

-Also, meat pies.

-Futhermore, paying for ketchup

-Lastly, what you do to bacon rivals the holocaust.

@QD:
If the don’t do it, they lose Milsap and then Boozer will demand a max contract next year because he’ll have them by the balls.

If they do it, they lose Millsap anyways. They’re already over the luxury tax BEFORE that trade, doing it doesn’t mean they get to keep Millsap. That’s my point— that trade doesn’t help them. If anything, they get “something” for letting Boozer walk, but it’s not enough to afford them Millsap.

They can keep Milsap if they want. He’s a restricted free agent. They can match any offer. In my trade, the Jazz save 4.5mil as you stated in your post. Reports are that Milsap is likely to get an offer that starts at 7-8mil.

So Utah has to take a hit (and they are already taking one) but it’s a price I’d be willing to pay because it will keep the fan base excited.

Korver has an expiring contract. Minnesota is under the cap and has no SGs currently on their roster. If I’m Utah, I give him to them for free. That would alleviate a lot of their cap troubles and they don’t need Korver with Rip and Ronnie Brewer on the team.

Those two moves don’t get them under the luxury tax but it gets them real close and gives them this:

DWill/Maynor
Rip/Brewer
Harpring/AK47
Milsap/AK47
Okur/Koufas/Fesenko

How come everyone fails to mention that almost any deal we pull for boozer will put us over the cap? You guys need to give it up.There is no way we can do a deal with Utah without screwing ourselves. Dumars isn’t going over the cap.

Too bad we couldn,t trade Rip to minnesota for love and some throw ins, where’s Mchale when you need him.

The more I look at the options for getting a big the more it looks like Tay to Portland for Pryzbilla is the only one that works well for us. Too bad Portland won’t trade Pryzbilla while he is still the best center on their roster. Stop sucking Oden, goddamit! Stop being Sam Bowie 2.0!

lol yeah too bed McHale was fired, we could have really used Kevin Love.

As for Oden, his biggest problem is fouls. He’s got one of the highest rebound rates in the league, but also has the most fouls/minute while Przybilla has the 4th least (which is what makes him so valuable to them). He’s definitely got the talent, but he cant stay on the floor. I think if he gets his foul rate down and can actually stay on the court, Portland would trade Przybilla.

What about going for Emaka Okafor? He’s a bit more expensive, and doesn’t have as high of a rebound rate, but he’s a proven full time defensive center

That’s another good possibility Ali. Larry Brown loves Rip and Tay and that young Bobcats team needs a veteran leader. Giving up Okeafor Would be unwise IMO, but if Brown wants to bring in one of the gbuys he won a championship with Okeafor would be a very good pickup for Detroit. He has likely peaked already but he is still a good defender and consistent double-double big man.

Don’t get me wrong, guys, I think Jod has been a great GM. I just don’t like some of his recent moves. I even think Daye might not be a bad pick; I just think Lawson will be better.

One thing I do like, though? He seems to have learned from last season about the importance of shooting well from three. Gordon, Villanueva, and Daye can all be threats from downtown, which is (after free throws and layups/dunks) the best way to get points.

I’d like to retain Rip City somehow and add Okafor, because then we’d have 4 UConnvicts on our squad, that’s a brolic recipe.

Despite Larry Brown being there, Okafor has indeed underwhelmed us all, but there’s something about coming to Detroit that can sometimes add a dimension to a player. Dumars is adept at buying the league’s disappointments and dudes below the radar and watching them excel in the (313). It doesn’t always work, but I think this thread proves the theory has merit.

Birdman i think the key words are can be. I wouldn’t say its the best way because often times you see people get 3 happy and start jacking a bunch of shots. I bet that Gordon has been giving the green light considering he’s coming off the bench, and he’s got the track record to prove he can be a legit 3 point scorer, so I’m fine with him doing whatever the hell he wants. But villanueva for sure should be down in the post, but not jacking up 3s. You have to be Memo or Troy Murphy to get a green light as a PF.

Ali gets us back to Gordon, a bit. Opinions on Gordon vary, and we’ll have to see how he works out, but I think we can agree on one thing. Gordon could be a new, even improved version of Vinnie Johnson, or Gordon could be AI redux, but Detroit isn’t going far in the playoffs — and may not even be making the playoffs — without another decent big man.

Same for Charlie V. He can be the best plausible version of Charlie V., and Detroit still won’t go anywhere without another good big.

And it keeps coming down to the fact that, barring something “Gasolesque,” Detroit can’t get a decent big without trading Rip or Tay (or maybe both). If we trade either, I’m sad, because I’m a big fan of both. If we trade Tay, who the heck is going to play SF? We haven’t been able to find a BACKUP SF since 2004. If Rip goes, I guess we could roll with Stuckey, Gordon, MFWB and AA, but Stuckey and MFWB will have to keep improving (in the way that Amir and Maxy didn’t last year), Gordon will have to play defense, and AA will have to bring a bit more offense.

One of my greatest fears is that Joe somehow sends MFWB away in a trade. Im telling you guys that is that dude where Joe struck gold.

@scntf:
Agreed. MFWB was by far my favorite Piston this season, and that admiration started at Summer League last year. His breakout is in itself a clear confirmation that this whole “BG as Microwave” is just nonsense— and that Rip will be moved. How can you play a 3 guard lineup with Stuck/Rip/Gordon and still get MFWB solid, consistent minutes? He’s our best backcourt defender AND distributor, and adding Ben Gordon doesn’t change that.

If Jod lets MFWB expire, I’ll join the calls for his head.

Good backcourt combos: Stuckey-Rip, Stuckey-Gordon, Bynum-Stuckey, Bynum-Rip, Stuckey-Gordon-Rip

Bad backcourt combos: Bynum-Gordon, Gordon-Rip

I think they can get all four of these guys good minutes (sorry Afflalo).

will bynum hasnt got a deal yet right? what do we have left to offer him?

Bynum has one year left on his contract. Dumars can wait until he’s used up all his cap space and then give him an extension. I’m sure they’ll give him one later in the summer.

It could work QD, but my gut feeling is that Jod is working the phones to find a new home for Rip. It would make me sad to see him go but if the Piston’s are starting over an aging player with a big salary (albeit a very good one) should probably be traded.

I don’t see why you guys think Portland is in love with Outlaw and Bayless. Before this year they were trying to trade outlaw and for some odd reason they just didn’t like Bayless. He only played 12 mpg and they are looking for a backup PG because they don’t think he can cut it.if we did the trade but threw in martell webster instead of Outlaw I would go for that too, but I think we could get Outlaw since they would be getting Prince.

I would pull the trigger on a Rip and Maxiell for Okafor trade in a heartbeat. Okafor exemplifies exactly what we need: defensive stalwart who can block shots, clog the paint and pull down rebounds, and impecable character to boot. On top of that, it would probably give us one of the youngest rosters in the NBA.

Stuckey/Bynum
Gordon/Afflalo/Washington
Prince/Daye/Jerebko
Villanueva/[McDyess/Frye/Bass/other FA]/Summers
Okafor/Brown

That’s an incredibly solid line-up to move forward with. I think somebody already mentioned this, but Rip is signed to MJ’s label which might make him attractive, not to mention that LB would love to have him playing for him again. It would give Charlotte a pretty solid line-up as well:

Felton/Augustin
Hamilton/Raja Bell
Gerald Wallace/Radmanovic
Diaw/Maxiell
Diop/Nazr/Ajinca

Kay you’re way overpaying for Okafor. He’s a defensive big, that’s it. Rip for Okafor is more than enough.

It’ll probably take more than just Rip to pry Okafor away, though. Going from Okafor to Diop is bit of a dip in productivity, so they’ll probably want at least another frontcourt piece in return. Also, after just looking at the contracts, Maxiell’s extention kicks in this season for $5mil, so trading him and Rip for Okafor would result in a net savings of $6mil, unless Charlotte throws in another piece. That $6mil plus our purported $4mil right now gives us enough cash to sign another major piece, a couple of solid rotation players, or hold onto the money for next summer.

Joe D is a good GM, but he drafts poorly.

Response: Oh, puh-leeze. The first thing to understand is that the NBA draft is a different animal than the NFL, NHL or baseball’s. I blogged about it in May, based on a comment I saw from New Jersey Nets president Rod Thorn: "Here’s how I look at it. In the top 10, there will be three guys who are really good. And two or three guys who are never better than rotation players. Between 10 and 20, there will be two guys who turn out to be very good NBA players. And between 21 and 30, there will be one very good player."

I looked it up and catalogued several years’ worth of drafts. Thorn is pretty close. First-round draft choices are just as likely to be washouts as really good players and about twice as likely to just be another guy. The deeper you go in the draft, the likelier it is that you’re drafting someone who’ll never leave a mark.

People bring up Mateen Cleaves as a draft mistake. Go back and look at that draft. Cleaves went 14th. Five players taken ahead of him are out of the league completely. Only two are starters. Not one is an All-Star. The players who went before and after him? Courtney Alexander and Jason Collier. The only way to avoid making a mistake in that draft was to trade out of it.

Darko’s the elephant in the room, of course. But nobody would have taken Chris Bosh or Dwyane Wade over Darko back then. Nobody. And a significant majority would have taken Darko over Carmelo – even Denver, which had Carmelo fall into its lap.

Not many teams can say they drafted consistently in the 20s for the past decade and have three players the quality of Tayshaun Prince (and go back and look at how lousy that draft was), Jason Maxiell and Arron Afflalo to show for it. The Darko mistake was turned into Rodney Stuckey. Cleaves was turned into Jon Barry and a No. 1. Rodney White became a No. 1 that was used in the Rasheed Wallace trade.

Far fewer people affect an NBA game than an NFL, NHL or baseball game. So far fewer impact players are found in each draft. They have two rounds in the NBA draft – as opposed to seven in the NFL and a bazillion in the NHL and baseball – because even second-rounders are long shots to carve out a meaningful career.

Bottom line: NBA GMs should be judged like baseball hitters. If they’re batting .300, they’re beating the average

I just got this off of the other pistons Page. It’s from a blog by Keith Langolis. I posted it here for all of the aforementioned arguments that Joe doesn’t know how to draft players. yeah he’s screwed up a few times but give him a break.

Are you kidding me? That was the biggest piece of bullshit I’ve ever read (not insulting you, but rather Keith Langlois). Keith has a big tendency to make excuses for Joe’s shortcomings; never trust him when it comes to his thoughts on a player we just got or Dumars. However he is very realiable when it comes to giving a sneak peak at Joe’s plans, including the draft, trades etc.

And Kay keep in mind Jordon is still technically the GM even though LB has a lot of control. If he was dumb enough to take Nazr Mohammad off our hands for a more productive player and draft Kwame Brown first overall, then I’m sure we can outsmart him again.

Kay Wan…Charlotte can’t take on that much additional salary in a Rip/Maxiel for Okafor trade since they over the cap. Salaries have to be within 125%. Rip for Okafor straight up works or you can add Raja Bell and Okafor for Rip and Maxiel.

I do like Okafor as a defensive minded center next to Charlie V. though. He’s only 26 now and he’s pretty much a guaranteed 14/10/2 with good defense.

Alright, here’s my crazy blockbuster trade with Portland and Charlotte. http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=qboclx

We lose Rip, Tay and Afflalo but get Okeafor, Outlaw, Bell, and Webster. Portland gets Tay and Afflalo, Charlotte gets Rip and Pryzbilla, and everyone gets more losses! It’s a lose-lose-lose Trade! That’s like the hat trick of bad team management!

This is a good thread. Ben Gordon is a positive, and this is a positive Pistons Basketball Community. Large props to all who contribute. The only way it would be better would be Coach_DP could come by to drop some science.

@SadPanta:
a thousand internets for you, i’d love to see that one pop off— we’d be young, tough and talented, 1-5.

@ sadpanda: I like that trade and I actually see all the teams involved benefiting from it somewhat.

I figure it would be very good for us and pretty good for Charlotte, but I don’t think Portland does so well. Radmonovic’s contract isn’t something I would want to take on. But I would be thrilled if JoD could pull off a trade like that. It would be an instant rebuild and give us a team ready to win very soon.

That would be a good trade except that I don’t like the idea of giving up Afflalo and having Ben Gordon starts. Chicago gave up 5 more points per 100 possessions when Gordon played compared to when he didn’t and his opponents effective field goal percentage was considerably over 50%. Raja Bell could start, but he’s getting pretty old.

Otherwise, I definitely like it. We get a legit defensive center and some other pieces on top of cap room.

Well I didn’t see us getting cap room in the deal but I do still like it. Ahh to dream up some trades…

Dude that deal puts us $11 mil under the cap (at least according to the trade machine)

my only hope is sheed contaminates the Boston locker room, Just like he did here!

I doubt he will. If Stephon Marbury couldn’t do it, and the fact that Sheed is a positive resource when he’s motivated, I don’t think he’ll cause any problems. As much as I hate Boston (KG and Perkins in particular), I do have a lot of respect for Doc Rivers. He’s a hell of a coach.

wow, sheeds finally gone. crazy. im going to miss that guy, though i am tired of him as a piston, its always somewhat saddening to me when a member of the championship team moves on. that said, i was tired of his bullshit and wont miss the tension i would feel whenever it was late in a game and he would get close to getting t’d up in possible game winning situations. hope he has a terrible year and screws it up for the celts.

@scntfc:
my only hope is sheed contaminates the Boston locker room, Just like he did here!

How the hell did Rasheed contaminate our locker room? By mentoring our young bigs? By leading our frontcourt’s team defense actively on the floor? By getting empassioned by the shitty rule changes that the league made to hamstring Detroit’s strengths?

Yeah, he tuned out Flip Saunders— so did Ben Wallace and everyone else not named Chauncey or Tayshaun. Yeah, he tuned out Michael Curry— as did every Piston and every Pistons fan. When he exploded and gave up in the playoffs, our fate was already decided and his teammates weren’t pulling their own weight.

Rasheed didn’t contaminate a goddamn thing, he was the heart, soul and emotion of the 2004 Pistons Rennaissance. He was misunderstood coming into this franchise— and by the comments here, he is misunderstood going out.

For those who think Dumars is a moron for not drafting Danny Green. I submit this video as a possible reason for him not doing so…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dO4uPLRfYAI&feature=fvw

“When he exploded and gave up in the playoffs, our fate was already decided and his teammates weren’t pulling their own weight.”

No, it wasn’t decided. You keep playing the final buzzer and if you lose you take it like a man. What you don’t do is get yourself kicked out of the game. That’s Mike Tyson shit right there. It’s a loser’s mentality. Sheed’s an incredibly talented player and a great philanthropist. But, a winner, he was not.

“Rasheed didn’t contaminate a goddamn thing, he was the heart, soul and emotion of the 2004 Pistons Rennaissance.”

No, he wasn’t. He wasn’t even there for half the year. The team was a hard-nosed tough team well before he got there. He was an integral piece, no doubt. But, I’d say he was the 5th most important player in that championship run (or at least in the Finals anyway).

sheed checked out in that cavs series a couple years ago. i don’t think it had to do with his team mates not showing up, i think he just can’t handle his shit sometimes. i dont think he was a contaminate though in the locker room. well, maybe he contaminated rip, he seems to be way more of a cry baby the last couple years, though i guess theres no proof thats sheeds fault.

@QD:
No, he wasn’t. He wasn’t even there for half the year. The team was a hard-nosed tough team well before he got there. He was an integral piece, no doubt. But, I’d say he was the 5th most important player in that championship run (or at least in the Finals anyway).

By “2004 Pistons Renaissance” I’m referring to 2004-2008. He shares that with Chauncey Billups. I know you hate Sheed, so I’ll take your opinion on it with a grain of salt. Besides, the way that championship team was built— no starter was the number one most important, no starter was 5th. Chauncey may have been the MVP in 04, but without Rip and Tay’s defense of Kobe, Chauncey never would have won that award. Without Ben and Sheed on Shaq, the same.

Looking back on the Pistons Renaissance of 2004 (to 2008), we can argue about whether Sheed was the most consistent contributor, but we can’t argue that he was the most passionate Piston in uniform. Love him or hate him, that deserves endless respect. As for Sheed leaving Detroit for Boston, Jod’s decisions on Chauncey and Curry had as much to do with that than anything else.

@dandresden:
sheed checked out in that cavs series a couple years ago.

granted, he did so after Chauncey and Tayshaun checked out.

@ mike payne

fair enough, and tayshaun has never been the same since. the more i think about i think that i am going to miss sheed. he was quite a unique talent, though infuriating. natalie over at need for sheed nailed it i think.

Sheed was the first to check out when we lost the Boston series. we killed them in game two. and when we came home you could see submission all in his face. I remember before the game he went to hug KG and it was like he was laying down right there before my eyes. I knew it was over before it started. I dont care how good you are, If a coach calls a huddle and you sittting over at the scorers table and the ensuing play breaks down. What kind of thoughts do you think goes through a young players mind. “our coach sucks!” “Sheed doesn”t believe in him, why should I" clearly a source of dissension in the ranks. It’s like Allen Iverson with the practice thing. lead by example. I cant help but believe that when Joe D. was talking about character guys and problems with personalities. he added Sheed to that list.any team sport… If you have someone who lost the desire and passion, and instead of his anger fueling fire for wins, they began to become meltdowns, ejections. predictions proven wrong. I call that a cancer any day. I used to love Sheed I loved when he would hit a 3 and then put his finger to his mouth to ssshhhh the crowd. but we aint seen that since like 06. Dude clearly became a cancer to this team. I will Love him from afar. and like someone mentioned. at this point I will take Dice any day over Sheed. his character has never been questioned. No one ever asked if Dice would show up. or if he was gonna be where he should be when he was needed to be there.

He came in like a Lion he went out like a hybrid who knows what the @#$% type of animal. unpredictable, inconsistent. he clearly shoulda been our leader last year. and let us not confuse leader with cheerleader. we were without a general, a captain, a rock, an anchor.

I love the Fanhouse headlines:

“Vince Carter Thinks Rasheed Wallace Can Help the Magic, and He’s Right” (Watson)
“Wallace Makes Celtics NBA’s Best Team” (Steinmetz)
“Celtics No Better With Wallace” (Pollakoff)

Sportswriters disagreeing? Now how am I supposed to have an opinion without people telling me what it should be?!

(On a less joking note, Steinmetz tends to hyperbole to just stir things up, and Pollakoff is a huge Lakers homer that can be a good analyst but his bias shows more than, say, Mr. Watson.)

I think that Pollakoff article is off. First of all, I don’t think Sheed will start over Perkins. I think he’ll come off the bench.

He also calls Sheed a bad one-on-one defender (not true). And someone who “needs his shots” (also not true).

I think it’s a great signing for Boston. They get a guy that can backup both C and PF and they can bench for the 4th quarter before he self destructs.

SCNTFC – Son went out like a Liger. A Lion and Tiger mixed… bred for his skills against the magic.

@MF Skeeze:
+36

@ SKYLAR, lol Yeah you are right. the magic was the only time when we got to see brilliance from him last year. and that was just because he had Dwight’s #

SCNTFC – Liger Sheed vs. ORL Magic – Sheed UNDFTD