Go to SA Dyess. You’ve earned it + some.

Kuester: This will be interesting to say the least. Gotta wonder how BG 7 CV are feeling right now. A guy with a 2 yr deal and team option for a 3rd. Things don’t go well this year, mutiny next year.

A contract for two years with an additional team-option year is probably not that unusual for first-time head coaches. I wonder, though, if Gordon and Villanueva were led to believe that Dumars was going to hire Avery Johnson (or another similarly-experienced coach).

+1 to MB.

Scramble the letters in his name for a hidden message.

john kuester = nuhest joker.

Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha!!!

The basketball Gods are laughing at us.

Michael Curry = MCIAFI

John Kuester = The Joker

Rotten Atom – bad shtick -1

Except that I don’t think BG and CV care too much about coach at this point. We gave them more $ than anyone else would, which is why they signed with us. Simple as that.

so CV and BG don’t want to be in Detroit, they just want the money?

shocking, i know.

I haven’t seen Kuester in action as a Head Coach, so I won’t judge him.

So Dumars has his next victim… Er, I mean head coach. May there be no talk of bebounds from him.

As for Dyess, I hate to see him go. I hoped he would retire as a Piston with a ring. But it doesn’t look like he’ll have a shot at a ring here. Go to wherever you have the best shot at a title Dyess. You’ve earned it, and you’ll always be welcome back in Detroit.

Anyone know when they announce the salary cap numbers? It would be nice to know what we have to work with at least.

Gotta wish the best for Dyess… we gotta appreciate the fact that he NEVER quit on Detroit. Hopefully he gets his ring next year while we are in rebuilding mode.

I would have preferred Tommy T. from Beantown but we’re splitting hairs over which rookie head coach gets the nod. Joe is still a Top 7 GM and we should trust him as such.

@Defor:
They literally JUST announced it:
http://realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/60407/20090707/salary_cap_set_at_$577_million_for_09_10_season/

So, the cap is at 57.7mil. If CV is 5yrs/35mil, then the Pistons will have 4.2mil left in cap space. If he’s 5yrs/40mil as on source reported, they will have 3.4mil.

dumars did say “CONTINUE to make moves in the best interest of the team” haha

i was/am a bit disappointed we didnt get avery, but hey we’re not the only team that’s passed on him… i think he’s asking for way too much

i woulda probably liked tom thibideau over kuester based on celtics’ defense and im a defense guy, but supposedly the knock on him is that he cant relate to players very well and i think we do need someone who can

john kuester = nuhest joker

Am I missing something? nuhest?

How about “He Stun Joker?”

Junk her stone.

He stoner junk.

He jerk, not us.

Here’s to junk.

Ben Gordon has the best, by far: BONER DONG.

@TDP, my Iowa connection,
+1,000,000 Junk Her Stone, dammit.

pretty hilarious that the Pistons are an option in today’s ESPN poll: Where will LeBron James be playing after next season?

john kuester=

unkosher jet?

Joe stunk her.

If it had been Tom Thibodeau: I’m due that boo.

what’s up with the bad shtick…

With the cap space left, the Pistons can conceivable offer a 5year/24million contract to someone. I think they should go after the best young big man available regardless of position or skill set because this team isn’t going to compete right away, so might as well accumalate assets.

I would love to see 4years/15million offered to Chris Anderson. The idea of the Birdman and the Baby Eater coming off the bench makes me snicker.

I think the Pistons should use there 3 to 5 Million left to acquire Drew Gooden. I think he could play the 5, he’s a scrappy defender and he has a nice interior game and he’s still young.

AND Gooden has schizophrenic hair/facial hair on top of it all!

boney: http://www.wordsmith.org/anagram/

Daniel Bonheim = Enable Hominid

QD: The Birdman doesn’t exactly answer your wish to get the “best young big man available”, though. He’s 31.

High energy guys don’t usually age too well, either, though admittedly he hasn’t had a whole lotta mileage.

“admittedly he hasn’t had a whole lotta mileage.”
Just in his septum! Oh! Zing!
/bad taste

I like the Gooden signing with the remaining money. He can play the 4/5 and back up Kwame (or even start, presumably) and rebounds at a decent rate. My biggest issue is a lack of shot-blockers.

Dwayne Jones put up monster rebound numbers last year and he’s already on the summer league roster. I wonder if they intend on signing him?

There’s also Courtney Sims, but he’s been giving several 10 day contracts with no success in the NBA.

Yikes:
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4312837

The contracts we just gave Ben Gordon and Charlie V (and Rip’s extension) could look even worse by next season.

If the league’s cap falls to the gloomier end of projections (a cap as low as $50.4 mil) then those three players will take up over half of our entire salary cap space. Rip+Gordon+CV= roughly $28 mil. That is horrible.

I don’t care who we get back (as long as they have a shorter contract), Rip absolutely HAS to be traded or we are completely and utterly screwed.

Also, why again was Joe in such a rush to spend his money? After this news I bet teams will be falling over themselves to cut salary, not to mention the price tag for Millsap and David Lee (both much better players than CV) just fell significantly.

Now we’re locked into a mediocre core with little flexibility. Yay.

I like the anagram for my name: Bang Jerkin Mule

=========

On topic:

@ Gabe

If the league’s cap falls to the gloomier end of projections (a cap as low as $50.4 mil) then those three players will take up over half of our entire salary cap space. Rip+Gordon+CV= roughly $28 mil. That is horrible.

…

Why again was Joe in such a rush to spend his money?

That was the first thing I thought… had we simply waited a few more days, couldn’t we have signed the same guys for cheaper? Or, could we have acquired the guys you mentioned for the same price?

I don’t get it.

Whatever team Dyess ends up with will be my 2nd favorite team to root for to win the title. He’s the only Piston that put in max effort and deserved to win the last couple years. Wish him the best! I hope he lands in SA and helps Duncan get his 5th and have one up on Shaq.

If things work out with Kuester, maybe we’ll end up with an offense that has a pulse. It was tough watching Tay and Sheed heave up brick after brick the past couple seasons just because they had to get their shots.

FWIW, I would have very little problem paying 28 million to three big men who can:

1) Block shots (and obviously, give help D to our guards)
2) Defend the post
3) Dominate the boards
4) Score in the paint

I don’t like giving 28 mil. to two guards and one PF who:

1) Have above-average scoring totals
2) But, don’t score all that efficeintly
3) Can’t or won’t defend (With the possible exception of Rip)
4) Are below average with respect to rebounds, steals, and assists

Ugh.

I think Jod may have jumped the gun just a tad. But, one of two things happen: they perhpas sign with someone first (being courted and stroked first and all) or you may end up with a small bidding war. Suppose Port after Hedo debacle really figures they need a 3 with outside shot and take a run at CV? Probably not happening, or is it possible to have Millsap signed away and Utah looks at CV or some type of SnT with Chi for Gordon / Boozer? Then what. I think the contracts might be a tad high, if the cap comes down again next year how many other teams are going to be really affected?

We still have ~3-5M depending to make a trade and still take back more than we’re giving. Rip at 11M means we can take back ~15M. Kwwame and Max @~9M we can take back 13M. And in the scheme of things, S. Brown resigned with the Lakers for ~4.2M/2yrs with a player option in year two. His agent said he could have gotten more elsewhere (which is his job) but if think S. Brown at 3M/yr then CV starting at ~5M/yr doesn’t look so bad for what we need.

As for Kuester, two things: Vs. Tom T. I’d rather have an offensive guy on the bench than D at this point because all else being equal it’s easier to put fans in the seats during rebuilding if you’re scoring and we (if rumors are true) need someone to relate to the number of new players we’ll have (BG/CV & draft picks according to Jod) and what are we going to nickname him? The Joker?

What are the chances that Q-Ster will hire Lambs as his assistant?

ESPN reports that Birdman has re-signed with the Nuggets. Not terribly surprising, but one more big man that was theoretically available that we don’t have.

Here are the FA bigs who are still out there:

Drew Gooden
Anderson Varejao
Chris Wilcox
David Lee
Paul Milsap
Channing Frye
Hakeem Warrick
Johan Petro
Big Baby Davis
Leon Powe
Zaza Pachulia
Brandon Bass
Stromile Swift
Rasho!
Chris Mihm
The Collins Bros.

My picks, especially if we’re for real going for this “youth movement,” would definitely be Channing Frye, Brandon Bass, Hakim Warrick, and Chris Wilcox. I wouldn’t cry over Gooden either. I’ve always thought he was a solid, if unspectacular, big man— post game, jump shot out to 16-ft, rebounds well enough, etc. Verejao might actually be one of the best players on that list, but I hate him so much I can’t think about it. My only beef with Brandon Bass is that he’s undersized, and I feel like we have enough undersized bigs on our team.

If we have $5mil to spend, I’m 100% positive we can pretty much take our pick of the litter, with the exception of Lee, Milsap, and Varejao— but who knows, maybe with the shrinking cap and a lack of interested buyers, we might be able to even get a Milsap or Lee for a back-loaded deal—> $5mil, $6mil, $7mil, $8mil = 4yrs/$26mil. Not to mention if we could land Milsap for that type of contract it makes Max completely expendable and we could use him in a package with Rip.

Going back to the comment about the stones being on the espn poll for where bron might go, any chance that the kuester hiring was made with bron in mind? You look at our roaster, and we have a BG and CV who play 2 and 4 who can spreed the floor. We trade rip and or Tay for expiring contracts, and we have the $$. We have a coach he knows/maybe likes. Add a center, and we look pretty damn attractive for a guy with bron’s skill set. Not that I think this is going to happen, but what if?

Milsap or Lee for a back-loaded deal–> $5mil, $6mil, $7mil, $8mil = 4yrs/$26mil.

Didn’t Lee already turn down 4/32 mil. from NY?

I mean, I’d love for that to happen with either of those guys, but … I just don’t see it happening.

@ Craig:

It’s not going to happen. There’s no sense in torturing ourselves wishing.

I’m also not surprised by Hansbrough’s summer league play so far. I know it doesn’t mean shit for how he’ll be in the regular season, but I think Indy is putting together a good core. I’m pretty sure he’ll continue to piss me off for years to come as a pacer now.

First of all, you’re crazy if you think Dumars should have waited. And whatever you think of these players he didn’t overpay. Ben Gordon will probably be making 9.5mil next year and CV will be making 6mil.

I don’t know if Dumars plan is a good one or not. But, he got three guys he wanted in the draft and two guys he wanted in free agency for the right price. You don’t hold off in anticipation of an announcement about NEXT YEAR’s cap space (especially when it’s almost definitely wrong).

I think Bron is going to Brooklyn. They got a lot of young players: Devin Harris, Brook Lopez, Courtney Lee.

In response to Craig, I quote the great Wayne Campbell: Shyeah, and monkeys might fly out of my butt.

@QD

First of all, you’re crazy if you think Dumars should have waited

I’m not at all sure about that. I like the CV signing (If we can land a defensive-minded, rebounding, shot-blocking C). CV would have attracted interest from other teams.

But BG is a bit of a different story. His own (former) team didn’t even make him an offer. Why rush?

@ QD: You’re probably right. Lebron’s big brother Jay-Z may convince him.

http://allonthefield.blogspot.com/2008/02/lebron-jay-z-and-brooklyn-nets.html

If you believe the rumors, he was trying to get Ariza to leave LA for CLE, telling him he himself was re-signing. I can’t call it. Never for a second have I believed Lebron, Kobe, or Dwayne Wade would come to Detroit. Bosh or Stoudemire perhaps.

One thing I think is obvious: 2008/2009 did considerable damage to this franchise. The Billups trade, Iverson’s bit of season here, and Michael Curry were all serious detriments. Ben & Charlie’s performance can stop the bleeding, and I expect big things from Kuester.

So I just accidentally exited out of an extremely long and detailed post explaining how:

1) CV’s deal is a BARGAIN for his production, and if you compare statistics, there’s absolutely no way you can say that Lee and Milsap are “clearly better” players. Just go to basketball-reference.com and look it up. I don’t feel like doing the whole post again. $7mil/yr for 20/9, which is realistically what we should be looking at with starter’s minutes, might be the best contract in the NBA.

2) Ben Gordon’s deal, while a little more pricey, is STILL a bargain. I actually had a giant list with 2009-10 salary figures for players making the same money (Kirk Heinrich, Cuttino Mobley, Jason Terry, Mike Dunleavy, Quentin Richardson), MUCH BETTER money (Larry Hughes, Iggy, Chauncey, RJ), and EXTRAVAGANTLY MORE money (T-Mac, Michael Redd, B-Davis, VC, Ray Allen, Gilbert). Some of these guys are RETIRED. Some haven’t been healthy in years. Some are career bench players.

PEOPLE, THESE DEALS ARE NOT THAT BAD. IN FACT THEY’RE GOOD. LARRY HUGHES MAKES FUCKING $14 MILLION THIS YEAR. CHILL THE FUCK OUT.

Why would waiting have been crazy? What team had 55 million dollars to throw at Ben Gordon? If that ended up being the route Joe deemed to be best, I’m pretty sure we could have signed Ben for that amount in August.

It’s possible CV would have gotten away from us, but honestly, who cares? CV’s not that good.

A more patient approach would have allowed Joe to search out the bargains in this free agent class, and he would have given himself a chance at discount trades, and what appears to be a real lack of bargaining power on the part of David Lee and Millsap.

QD, it’s not necessarily the “price” that I’m worried about (though the deal we gave Gordon was, IMO, a lot more than anyone else would have offered), it’s the allocation of resources.

We now have between $25-30 million per year locked up between Rip, Gordon and CV. That is a huge chunk of resources to devote to a pair of SG’s whose only strengths are scoring, and a jump shooting PF who plays sub-par defense. The idea that if you put enough scorers together you will have a good team is exactly how the Knicks became a laughing-stock: Everyone on a team can’t be a “scorer.” It just doesn’t work.

And if you would take old Ray Allen ($19mil) and VC ($16mil), never healthy Agent Zero ($16mil), T-mac ($23mil) and Michael Redd ($17mil), or “professional stamp-licker” B-Davis ($16mil) over Benny G at $10mil, you’re fucking crazy.

CRAZY.

“CV’s not that good.”

Really? Those other two guys are BETTER deals at MORE money? Ridiculous. People need to get off Milsap and Lee’s jocks. There’s a reason nobody was throwing $8-10mil/yr at those guys to see if NY would match— THEY’RE NOT WORTH THAT TYPE OF MONEY.

@ Joel:

here’s a comparison of CV/Millsap/Lee/Powe last season:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/tiny.cgi?id=CKhM3

to sum up…

CV is way less efficient and rebounds less than either Millsap or Lee. The only reason CV’s PER is at a similar level to them is because he jacked up way more shots per game.

And here’s the best thing about CV: by my quick calculations HE SHOT UNDER 50% ON HIS 2 POINT FIELD GOAL ATTEMPTS!!! That is flat out embarrassing for a 6’11" “Power” Forward…

You can call CV a lot of things, but “a bargain” isn’t one of them.

CV is a good bargain at the price. BG is more of a question mark, but the bigger issue is that neither of them (nor any of our draft choices) met Detroit’s biggest and most obvious need: a big 4/5 that has a post offense game and/or a major defensive presence. Our bigs weren’t that all good last season, and we’ve now lost Amir, ’Sheed, and (almost certainly) ’Dyess.

That leaves us with Kwame, Maxiell, and I guess CV as a 4. The best things anyone says about Kwame are “good value for the money,” “didn’t quit like a lot of others last year,” and “is serviceable.” Maxiell is undersized and was a disappointment last year. CV doesn’t have that classic big-man post game and so far he hasn’t been a good defender.

We all know we’re missing at least one true stud at 4-5. Which means it doesn’t matter if we got a good, bad, or OK deal with yet another shooting guard. If I need a solid car, I shouldn’t be wasting my money trying to get a good deal on a boat.

When Dalembert makes $14 mil, Randolph makes $16 mil, Curry makes like $15mil, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. ad infinitum, calling CV’s $7mil a year is one of the easiest to call bargains in the NBA. Fact.

PF’s who can’t shoot 50% on their 2 point field goal attempts are disqualified from being called “bargains.” Fact. :P ;)

Of that list, I like Chris Mihm (everyone done laughing??). Guy will give 110%, doesn’t ask for the ball plays respectable D and can hit a 15 footer. Doesn’t have alot of miles due to ankle surgeries (hopefully not a future Bill Walton) and would come relatively cheap. Unless Jod’s got something going, we need bodies not an “individual.” I think if you look at Stuck/MFWB/BG/Rip, CV & Tay, we got guys who can score. A little O at the 5 would really help.

As for Bron * NJ? That’s a very young team. Does Bron want to wait 2-3 years to get there or do we think with our guys, experience and Bron, could he get “there” faster? I think at best (NJ perspective) it’s a toss up. And I think that’s being charitable. With he & Shaq looking at FA next summer, that’s going to be a circus every game next year.

And I don’t think Wade leaves Miami. The weather, ability to pay ~25M more over the contract life and no state income tax (I believe) is going to be very hard to beat. Add his style and he’s 28 in Jan, this is going to be his last big contract unless it’s a 3 year + option kinda thing again. Though he’s two years younger than Kobe, he’s got alot more miles and a different game, he’s got to think about how “old” he’d be at the end of whatever deal he makes and the odds of getting large coinage at that point.

Barg’s is getting 10M/yr, Lee wants 12M/yr, Millsap might get 8-10M/yr and Odom is holding out for 10M. CV at 5-6M/yr is a very friendly contract. Could we have gotten Frye for that? That’s a very good question and depending how things unfold over 2-3 years, we’ll know. And upon reflection, if I’m BG/CV and have a choice of playing for an “O” coach or “D” coach, I don’t think it’s that hard to figure out which one they would prefer.

“HE SHOT UNDER 50% ON HIS 2 POINT FIELD GOAL ATTEMPTS!!! That is flat out embarrassing for a 6′11″ "Power" Forward…”

How about Dirk Nowitzki? Rasheed Wallace? Chris Bosh? Al Jefferson? Look it up. The only high-usage PF’s at 6’11" or over that shot above .500 were KG, Pao, and… nobody else that I can find.

@ Joel:

I don’t think anyone is arguing with you that CV’s contract is bad (except maybe Gabe). I think we’re questioning whether or not CV is the type of PF we really wanted.

Gave summed up the statistics well, I think. CV shoots well below average for a PF and shoots significantly worse than Lee or Milsap. He also rebounds at a substantially lower rate.

That’s where TJ’s comments come in, I think. Unless we get a dominant rebounder at the 5, who can score in the post, board, and block shots, then the weaknesses in CV’s game are going to become very obvious and hurt us very badly.

The point is NOT that we’re overpaying for his skill set; the point is that his skillset — when combined with Gordon’s contract, which all but prohibits us from signing a legit 5 man — does not seem to be what we need.

I was one of the first CV advocates here, and I still think he has an upside. I think the right coaching will motivate his defense and rebounding — those are two areas that can be improved.

But, eating up almost all of our cap on CV and BG is the perceived problem here. Those contracts when taken together do not meet the immediate needs of the franchise, and therein lies the problem.

Joel, I’m on team CV31. I’d like him to give some consideration to defense though. I foolishly thought Dumars would bring in some defensive specialists for the ‘09 squad, as it stands, it ain’t none.

@ MB:

I would take Chris Mihm, but doing so would eat up the rest of our cap space and prohibit us from taking back more salary than we give out via trade.

In other words, I’d take Mihm, but I wouldn’t rush it.

Joel, my only problem with Ben Gordon for $55 million is this:
"I mean they [the Bulls] didn’t pursue me at all. They didn’t even make an offer so it was pretty much a one-man race."

If it’s a one man race, why are we giving him a “while a little more pricey” deal? He waited for a contract that never came all last summer – would he really be willing to do the same again this summer? When the only offer on the table is 5 years, $45 million and nothing else is even close, what other option do you have? And if Jod isn’t outbidding himself, then we have enough left over to make a competitive offer to Dyess or the guy whose bandwagon you’re the founder of, Marcin Gortat.

Regardless of the bottom line of value, if us having gotten them for a bit less would have led to bringing in a guy like Gortat isn’t it entirely understandable to be disappointed about it.

Well and that Stuck, Gordon, Daye, CV31, and Kwame is like a crackhead man’s 2004 squad makes me sad that the handle “Sad Panda” is already taken…

“PF’s who can’t shoot 50% on their 2 point field goal attempts are disqualified from being called "bargains." Fact. :P ;)”

Like I said, the only high usage 6’11" PF’s that averaged over 50% from 2pt were Pao and KG, at $16mil and $22mil respectively. Bargains? I guess there’s no such thing as a bargain PF. Although getting 75% of Pao Gasol for 40% of the price tag doesn’t seem like too bad of a deal to me. ;) :P

Joel:

I didn’t say “shot above 50%,” I said above 50% on 2 point field goal attempts… That means CV is either an awful finisher or soft as hell.

Look at the difference between CV’s close shot stats and Millsap’s:
CV: http://www.82games.com/0809/08MIL12.HTM#pstats
Millsap: http://www.82games.com/0809/08UTA10.HTM#pstats

Millsap’s eFG% on “close” shots is .581%, CV’s is .487%.

Also, 63% of Millsap’s total field goal attempts are “inside” shots, and he shoots them at an eFG% of .634%

36% of CV’s total field goal attempts are “inside” shots, and he shoots them at an eFG% of .534

So, 64% of CV’s shots are jumpers and he converts those at an eFG% of .462%, which is nothing to write home about.

CV scores a lot because he takes a lot of shots, most PF’s average a few less ppg’s than CV, but they score their points more efficiently. I prefer those types of players.

Let’s blow up the team and start over.

Why did we rush to sign guys? Because they can sign elsewhere.

Joe Dumars is the worst GM ever

fire John Kuester

Trade Amir now

Sign DeVon Hardin

@Onions

I, too, am disappointed that the Pistons lost out on Gortat. He would have been just what we wanted. Looking at the other teams with cap space (Portland, Toronto, Memphis, OKC), only Toronto has a need for a shooting guard and they didn’t seem interested.

“The only high usage 6′11″ PF’s that averaged over 50% from 2pt were Pao and KG”
-Joel

whoops, I missed that you said “2pt” shots.

Still, why would we sign a “high usage” PF who can’t shoot over 50% on his 2 pointers? Wouldn’t it make more sense to sign a “low usage” PF who has demonstrated an ability to finish around the basket at a high level of efficiency (and who can play some defense, an ability that CV has yet to show in his NBA career).

I think you have to take into account the teams these guys played for last year, as well. Millsap played next to a guy who routinely played outside (Okur), and Chucky V played next to bogut/elson, not exactly two guys you would call shooters.

@Gabe

You said 6’11" power forwards. I just gave you a list of all-world, all-star, and potential all-star 6’11" power forwards that don’t shoot 50% on their 2pt shots, just like you said. Take the 3pt makes and misses out of the equation, and the numbers hold up. People just don’t shoot as well as they used to, or defenses are getting better. But the days of your big men being a “lock” to shoot over 50% are pretty much over. When they actually DO shoot 50% from 2pt, and at a high usage rate, you’re looking at a top-tier guy. Look up the numbers. Sheed didn’t do it. Dirk didn’t do it. Bosh didn’t do it. Jefferson didn’t do it.

And in CV’s defense, he can actually create his own shot, while Lee and Milsap are wholly reliant on getting the ball wide open and finishing with a dunk or a short jumpshot at best. If CV was playing with D-Will, he’d probably have a better shooting percentage. If CV were playing on the Knicks, he’s probably have put up 25/12 last year. Unfortunately, he was playing with… Ramon Sessions and Richard Jefferson? Don’t forget about their situations.

mcdyess GOOD rebounder, valuble for any TEAM. effort and SIZE also be missed by not just TEAM, but also FANS. just epinion

Having gone over it quite thoroughly in my own head, I’m on board with the signings. However, I won’t exhale until Rip has been moved for some frontcourt help— if Rip is still a Piston come the trade deadline and CV and Brown are our main bigs, I will not be a happy camper. If the BG contract was not a precursor to such a move, arguing whether or not Gordon came as a “bargain” will be the least of our worries.

Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is interesting but what they don’t reveal is more interesting.

Alot of these depends on the system. I would think Millsap would have a high percentage, particularly “inside” opportunities because of Korver, Okur, D-Will, AK47, etc. Likewise with KG & PP/Allen. that’s where they play and where the plays are drawn up for them.
With Bogut down low, I would assume CV’s shots would be from the outside.

I’ve always wondered why with 1 tick left on the clock and regardless of score, take the inbounds pass and give it a heave. WTF do you have to lose, except arguements like this regarding stats. Take Kobe or MJ. Teammates pass them the ball, they have virtually no time on the clock so they throw up the best shot. Take 25 shots a game and you miss that one shot, your shooting percentage drops by 2% (12 out of 24 vs. 12 out of 25) if you take that shot clock shot. Then in your contract you’re arguing shotting percentage of 50% or 48% to grind out some more money. Now ripple that 2 or 3 times a game.

As for BG’s money, perhaps we could have gotten away with a bit less. OTOH, how many 2’s are out there currently available that can go off for 30+ on any given nite and are willing (according to reports) to be 6th man? I got nothin’.

@MP

I’m operating under the assumption that RIP is gone, trade deadline at the latest. I’ll be shitting my pants if he’s still on the team next March. That is, unless somehow this bizarro 3-guard lineup actually works. I’m pretty sure he’s gone though. It just might not happen until the middle of the season because we need teams to be desperate, and right now everybody is aglow, basking in potential. Once the Sixers/Clips/Raptors/etc. are 10 games under .500 and still in luxury cap hell, I think we’ll have a much better chance at getting the big we need.

the Gordon deal doesnt make any sense to me either due to the fact that no one else was apparently going to give him that money. I,like everyone else, am real concerned with our lack of post game. We had no low post guys last year and it looks to me that we just lost our two bigs that could have done that (rasheed and dyess). Joe d must have a plan, at least I hope he does.

Joel:

Point taken, though Lee or Millsap didn’t have any problems getting over the 50% benchmark, you’re right that perimeter oriented PF’s don’t shoot over 50% on 2pt fga’s very often (no matter how tall they are).

For what it’s worth, here’s Dirk/Bosh/Jeffereson/CV:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/tiny.cgi?id=dCiKB

I guess we’ll see how it turns out, my big concern with CV is he’s the type of player that can superficially seem like he’s helping a team (especially if he’s scoring around 20 ppg’s), but because of poor defense and not working to get the best shot possible on every possession, he can be a net negative.

I generally don’t like the “floor spacing” type of PF’s unless they are great defensively (KG) or incredibly versatile (Gasol). Otherwise they really only make sense if you already have a beast of a C in place (DHoward), who can offset the inherently lower efficiency of having a primarily jump shooting PF. We don’t have that beast at C, so CV’s relative inefficiency, and his lack of secondary skills, make him a particularly bad fit for us, IMO.

All the bad contract talk is ludicrous. These are reasonable deals for two high quality young players.

I think the giant question is strengthening the frontcourt — especially at the 5. CV becomes a lot more reasonable starter if he’s getting most of his minutes next to a :
healthy Tyson Chandler,
Kaman,
Camby,
Biedrins,
Thabeet,
(Marc) Gasol, or
Okafor.

Those are the young 5’s who fit with what seems to be the new vision of the team (with the exception of Camby, who is redundant, affordable and in the last year of his deal).

If Butter is correct with this earlier comment (copied below) could we land one of the real quality 5’s who are even possibly available?

We still have ~3-5M depending to make a trade and still take back more than we’re giving. Rip at 11M means we can take back ~15M. Kwwame and Max @~9M we can take back 13M.
… and I’d add that Afflalo is a great deal as part of a package too. I love the guy (and so does Dumars, I think), but he’s got value and it’s tough seeing him getting lots of minutes minus injury.

It’s all about a 5.

Gabe, I may be wrong here because I haven’t watched these guys a lot but don’t Lee and Milsap get a lot of points off of putbacks and finishing off of assist passes.

Those things are great to have, but you also need to have someone that can create their own shot. I was under the impression that CV has a low post game. I’m fairly sure that Lee doesn’t and Milsap has a moderate one.

@Gabe

Cosign with everything you just said.

@MarkButter:
Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is interesting but what they don’t reveal is more interesting.

Alot of these depends on the system. I would think Millsap would have a high percentage, particularly "inside" opportunities because of Korver, Okur, D-Will, AK47, etc. Likewise with KG & PP/Allen. that’s where they play and where the plays are drawn up for them.
With Bogut down low, I would assume CV’s shots would be from the outside.

Thing about Villanueva— he barely played next to Bogut last season. I’m guessing they played only 25 games together last season? Villanueva played next to Dan Gadzuric and Francisco Elson— two 30+ year old centers who can barely rebound the basketball, and still CV rebounded poorly. I understand much of this has to do with positioning, but I can’t see Skiles not forcing him close to the paint to help on rebounding.

When he’s consistent, and he was for most of last season, I like CV quite a bit. I’ve always seen him as soft and inconsistent, but when he’s on, he’s on. I pegged Milwaukee as a playoff team last year, but only if CV could stay healthy. Little did I know that bogut and redd would go down. If not, we very well might have ended up in the lottery. All that aside, I am admittedly looking forward to seeing what CV can do in Detroit… (although I still kind of wish he was playing at the 3)

If those reports about the cap going down to 50mil turn out to be correct (and I doubt they will), there will be a lot of disappointed teams preparing for the Summer of Lebron.

Doesn’t it make you feel all warm and fuzzy inside that all these millionaire choads thinking they’re going to get mad money next summer (Boozer, Bosh, Amare, etc., etc., etc.) aren’t even going to sniff what they would’ve gotten a year or two ago? Beautiful really.

QD:

The strange thing about CV’s shooting stats is that he was assisted on his jump shots at a higher rate than his close shots:
http://www.82games.com/0809/08MIL12.HTM

The fact that a relatively low % of his close shots were assisted does seem to support the idea that when he wanted to, CV could post up and create his own shot.

The worrying part of his shooting stats is CV’s shot distribution was roughly 2 jump shots for every 1 close shot, and 73% of his jump shots were assisted, which suggests he was mostly content to launch a jump shot when the ball got swung to him rather than drive or try to use his post-up ability.

Though if the Bucks ran a lot of pick & pop sets, CV’s jump shooting could have been by design, I’d still much rather have seen more of an inclination on his part to use his quickness and high skill level to get to the rim.

CV’s Tweet:

“I had an amazing dinner with Mr. Joe Dumars. Not to take away from any former GM I’ve worked with, but he’s a brilliant and admirable man.”

Speaking of which, how do I italicize ? is it [quote] or is it [i]?

Gabe, I get the same impression from those stats. That he indicates that he probably has a low post game and that he got a lot of shots off of pick and pops and catch and shoot situations.

As for the disinclination to drive, hopefully Kuester can get more out of him than Skiles did. Skiles isn’t exactly an offensive mastermind.

@Satchel:
healthy Tyson Chandler,
Kaman,
Camby,
Biedrins,
Thabeet,
(Marc) Gasol, or
Okafor.

(disclaimer— regular DBBers who are tired of me railing on Chandler or Kaman, my apologies!)

A “healthy” chandler or kaman will never exist in this league again. Not even Arnie Kander can get either of those players playing more than 68 games in the rest of their career, which would easily be the high end of their production. 7’ centers with those kind of injuries rarely make a season-long impact for the rest of their careers. Chandler’s surgeries had complications, he’s missed his target recovery dates this summer, and as for Kaman, shit- 87 games total in the last two seasons.

After those two, Camby is the only other player we could likely trade for, and he’s older than Jesus. If we’re rebuilding, it makes sense to try to go young.

The other players on that list likely will not leave their teams for anything we could offer, without exception. I’d knife my grandmother for Biedrins or Okafor, but I can’t see it happening.

As a few other DBBers have mentioned, Dalembert is a good, reliable option. Not an attractive player, kind of a douche, but a rebounding, shot blocking machine who has been mis-managed by his team and needs a fresh start. Oh and Philly would love Rip, Rip would love Philly. Book that.

Having gone over it quite thoroughly in my own head, I’m on board with the signings. However, I won’t exhale until Rip has been moved for some frontcourt help– if Rip is still a Piston come the trade deadline and CV and Brown are our main bigs, I will not be a happy camper. If the BG contract was not a precursor to such a move, arguing whether or not Gordon came as a "bargain" will be the least of our worries.

Agreed. I think while watching the AI/MCIAFI shitstain of a season last year, I probably would have gone into convulsions if you said “Don’t worry, this is all leading up to us signing Ben Gordon and CV31, and hiring someone named John Kuester!” but it could all work out. I’m certainly trying to talk myself into it…

Guys you want to read this

LINK REMOVED

great article that talks about the influence Larry Brown has had on the league, and more importantly talks a bit about John Kuester’s past.

From the looks of it, he’ll be a great Xs and Os coach, much better than even Flip Saunders. This guy has played for Both Larry Brown and Dean Smith, not to mention worked under LB for 8 years afterwords. Look at the improvements he made on Cleveland, they’re gonna suck offensively with Mike Brown back in charge.

The only question is can he deal with egos? IF Pop or Doc Rivers are any indication, I’d say yes.

But if not, hopefully Laimbeer will be given the assistant coach position. If he could get a room full of women to work together on something that’s not related to chocalate, dealing with Rip must be like sipping wine.

ohh and here’s the real link

Douche

Just an FYI for everyone, don’t click the top link. I didn’t bother with the bottom link.

Just as long as it’s a small knife, Mikey. No serrations, either. Oh, and would you be a dear and avoid the major organs?

I know you’re busy, but would it hurt you to visit more, without a weapon?

@Ali:
I removed your link, don’t do that again.

The bottom link is the real think

here it is again if you don’t believe me
http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-42-35/The-Ties-that-Bind-Larry-Brown-to-John-Kuester-and-Everything.html

geez you guys get really mad over a little joke, its not like it was meatspin or 2girls1cup

@ MP: I think I read somewhere (I posted on a different thread) that Dalembert has a trade kicker. They aren’t going t be able to move him unless it’s a lopsided deal. And if were looking for a rebounding, clog the middle w/ average low post moves, we’ve go Kwame.

And as said, I think the cap comes down a bit more next summer alot of those guys are signing with their own team. Hell, the lakers payroll is 100M freakin dollars (when Bynum’s contract kicks in) and I think that’s without Odom signing. He take 8M that’s actually 16M to Dr. Buss. Now, the Lakers make money and they are competing for a chip. And I believe the Jazz now have the highest payroll and that’s without Millsap. There will be fire sales.

I’m not sure how it would work, but Rip+AA to Dallas for SnT Bass + Dampier. I think Damp’s contract ends next season (team option in 2011. . I’m going by memory here, so I apologize) and we get a decent D center and have ~11M next summer.

It could be worse, we could be talking about giving Hedo 10M/yr. It’s all about perspective.

Aww… I missed some controversy. Damn me and my 11 o’clock nap.

I rick rolled Collin, but I also posted the real link so its not like it was a big deal

How do you actually pronounce “Kuester?”

I read it like “keister” (I’m not sure what that says about me), but I’ve see the “Q-ster” thrown around in here.

Enlighten me, ye lords of pronunciation.

Actually, getting Damp in a contract season and letting him walk is the only way I’d want him – I live in the Bay Area and I still remember what he did for the W’s when he had a paycheck coming up. But he’s locked up for $13 in 2011 and according to hoopshype it’s not an option.

I agree with the comments earlier about taking on a never-really-healthy player; so why not take a flier on Camby for one season? A seasoned veteran in the middle and a guy that teammates love to play with? Esp with Dice likely walking, I think he’d be a great pickup and we don’t tie up money on a second-rate 5.

Also, it’s hard for me to imagine that Charlotte wouldn’t listen to Okafor/Rip. They’re desperate for a 2 and LB would love to have Rip. And if they would bite, you could even move him to the 4 with Kwame at the 5 and you’d suddenly have a really terrific defensive frontline look.

All the analysts and radio hosts pronounce it Q Ster

Check out the link to the true hoop article, pretty interesting information about Kuester and his relationship with LB

I pronounce it as Q-Ster in my head, but I like to think it’s actually Q-Star, which sounds more like a crime-fighting cowboy from the future.

Yeah, I don’t see how Charolotte wouldn’t at least listen to a Rip/Okafor. They’ve got Nazr & Diop and Juwan Howard in a pinch. Does LB do business with Jod? MJ?

OTOH, near playoff team last season can you sell it to the fans? How much goodwill does Okafor have there? I think both Okafor/Rip contracts run about the same? Didn’t Okafor sign the extension just last summer or the year before? Jod, make that call.

Forgot, didn’t Charolotte draft Gerald Henderson? There’s their 2.

So our new coach is Jonny Quest(er).

Satchel, I think Damp’s other year is not guaranteed so the Pistons could cut him after this season if they had him.

@ Satchel:

Dampier’s contract doesn’t show up as having a team option on hoopshype, but it’s been reported to be completely un-guaranteed past next season, so the extra year is essentially a team option (short version: Dampier’s got a big expiring contract).

That would make the Pistons a Tribe Called “Quest.”

Henderson is a rotation player at best, not an all star.

Gabe, if Dampier is a massive expiring contract, then why would Cuban want to trade him for a back end player? Cuban could get much more, ie Pau Gasol or Richard Jefferson

“That would make the Pistons a Tribe Called “Quest”.

Kuester = QTip

@Ali:
geez you guys get really mad over a little joke, its not like it was meatspin or 2girls1cup

With that link, you can only force close your browser to close that tab in Firefox on Vista. This means that anyone, take me for example, that has unsaved work in another tab automatically loses it. Let’s take, for example, 20 minutes worth of a time-sensitive article for work.

Don’t be a muppet.

@Ali

Rip is better than Jefferson, and the Gasol deal was very unique. The Mavs could use a shooting guard, so you never know. Plus, Cuban isn’t afraid to open his wallet.

Ali:

Dallas could use an upgrade at SG, and they signed Gortat, so Dampier is expendable. I don’t think anyone’s saying the deal is likely, just that it could make sense for both teams.

QD: John ?er, John ?love

@ Gabe

For what it’s worth, here’s Dirk/Bosh/Jeffereson/CV:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/tiny.cgi?id=dCiKB

This is how Berri puts it, and I don’t know how to spin the stats any other way.

Of course, if all we focus upon is scoring, then Gordon and Villanueva are above average players. But once we move past scoring we see that Gordon was below average last season with respect to rebounds, steals, turnovers, blocked shots, and assists. And Villanueva was below average with respect to steals, turnovers, and personal fouls (and not really far above average with respect to anything else).

The upside is that it’s easier to teach defense and rebounding than scoring ability, because defense and rebounding are largely about positioning and effort.

As I see it, a few things need to happen for this to work.

1) Gordon and CV have to become better all-around players (rebounding, and defense).

2) We have to get a legit C.

Again, I don’t have an issue with the CV contract; it’s very reasonable, because he can improve, and he’s a combo Forward.

The Gordon contract is also reasonable relative to other 20 ppg SG’s in the league — that’s not my issue. My concern is that BG simply does not meet an immediate need.

And signing a SG who closely mirrors the one you already have for basically the same amount of money, when you don’t have a legit Center is confusing.

I agree with those who are hoping we can trade him, even though I’d hate to see him go. If we can’t, we’re f*d.

@ Gabe again:

(short version: Dampier’s got a big expiring contract).

Yeah, ‘cause that’s worked out soooooo well for us this summer. Furthermore, the cap is going to shrink again in the summer of 2010. It’s not some rumor of the interwebz; it was clealry stated in an official release from the league.

A big expiring contract only helps if the cap is holding steady or increasing, not decreasing.

Gabe, I agree. Cuban has never been afraid to spend money and after signing Kidd they need to win now.

Damp for Rip makes a lot of sense.

Dallas would start: Kidd, Rip, Howard, Nowitzki and Gortat. With Jason Terry, Quinton Ross, Stackhouse coming off the bench.

The problem is that they would have no big man depth. So I wouldn’t be surprised to see them keep Dampier and concentrate on using Stackhouse’s expiring contract to upgrade their roster.

What about Bass, QD? You didn’t list him.

I would never trade Rip for Dampier though, you’re giving away too much quality for an expiring contract. I was thinking more along the lines of Maxiell plus a fill in.

Look guys we don’t have to just give away Rip because of Gordon. I think a smart guy like Kuester could make a 3 guard line up work.

And if it doesn’t, at the very least get Boozer, not Dampier. Boozer holds much more trade value on the open market, because of his ability and his contract. So that means you could, in theory, turn Rip into Amare if you ship off the right pieces with Boozer.

Anybody read this Fanhouse article?

http://nba.fanhouse.com/2009/07/08/lebron-gets-dunked-on-nike-rep-allegedly-confiscates-the-video/

Another reason I can’t stand LeAsshole. He can’t shake hands, wears his own mvp shirt, give’s shitty interview and now he can’t be seen getting dunked on at camp… What a bitch.

Huge difference between a legend like MJ and this clown is the way they carry themselves. Jordan once got dunked on at one of his camps pretty bad. He didn’t act like a little bitch about it either. The next time down the court he damn near jumped over the kid and brought him back to earth. LBJ didn’t have to do anything, his Nike goons were all over it.

I totally agree

Courtesy of Anton from a SLAM comment:

Inside The Cleveland Huddle (featuring Q-Star!):

http://i25.tinypic.com/2v0mp0m.gif

Possible Trade:

Detroit gets: Boozer
Utah gets: Rip
Minnesota gets: Korver plus Draft Picks from Detroit

For Detroit, the picks are unneeded because they have so many young players anyway with Stuckey, Bynum, Gordon, Villanueva, etc.

For Utah, they get Rip plus shave off 6mil that they can uses to resign Milsap (who will probably get a contract starting at 7-8mil). They improve their team without significantly increasing their payroll.

For Minnesota, they are under the cap so they can take on Korver’s contract. He can play SG for them for a year (they lost Foye and Miller) and then his contract expires so they still have significant cap space for 2010. Plus, they get some picks from Detroit.

DBB’ers, good reading, just jumping in. BTW, I love the Bikini-statistics quote.

Re: the discussion that Dumars jumped too soon on the FA’s. I think that’s something you don’t F-around on and get your guy quickly. Ask Portland about that one.

Re: Overpaying. Honestly, how much did he overpay Benny G? $1M/yr? You can’t even buy an 6 yr veteran at the minimum salary for that. Bad contracts are defined by the player fizzlin’ out, not the 1 or 2 milli’s difference. Say what you want about Benny G, I don’t think dude will be set for fizzle anytime soon. Similar I think to the Rashard Lewis deal. A few $’s more to get it at the time, but not a “bad contract” by any means.

As for CV; dude can ball and there was not a clear better option. Lee and Millsap being restricted f’s up the whole argument. You’re talking about making a play for them, locking up your salary and potentially getting jack-squat. After the 7 days or so, it could be over – you’re other options are signed. Seems like a hella big risk for a minor improvement (a debatable one at that). You’re just looking for a fight if you’re knockin’ that deal.

Both signings were OK for the pieces, all things considered.

Are the piece right, well that’s another sotry all together.

On the what next front. The right move with Rip is to trade him. The right time is not now, but when someone get’s desperate. It’s gonna hurt, but we may have to actually wait this one out. Those who B#tch ‘bout moving too soon on the FA’s are not allowed to hate on Joe for waiting that out, it’s the right move.

Phale

@ Ali: I agree, but Rip @ 11M/per or Gerald on his rookie contract? Obviously depending on who’d they add/have at that point.

@ brgulker: "And signing a SG who closely mirrors the one you already have for basically the same amount of money, when you don’t have a legit Center is confusing. " I think Gordon has a better long stroke and can get to the hole (i.e. line) easier. But I see your point.

A big expring contract is a big expiring contract, cap is irrelevant only that the lower the cap is, the “bigger” that contract is.

JasonR: Agreed. Locking up your cap money for 7 days really screws things up and we might have to wait on Rip. Like Jod said before, Stuck may slide to the 2 with MFWB at 1, so having 4 guards is really going to hurt short term. I can see where perhaps Stuck blows up at the point and MFWB is used since I think if he plays this year a whole season like last year, he’s going to have some serious money thrown his way next summer.

I think the boozer deal, now with CV is dead unless we’re looking for cap room and allow Boozer to walk next summer. But then you’ve traded Rip for nothing. . . depending on who you sign. Unless Utah throws us NY’s 1st round unprotected pick next year. . . which ain’t going to happen.

I forgot, but according to Chad Ford G. Wallace is supposedly on the block again. Rip/Tay for Okafor/Wallace? LB would love to have Rip/Tay we get real athletic in a hurry.

MFWB/AA/Max/Sharpe/Kwame on the second unit and we don’t slow down. I think Tay’s deal expires 2011 and given that the bobcats are looking to be sold, this cuts down on their long-term obligations.

Anyone want to discuss Rip for DLee via sign and trade?

I like Rip for Boozer(’s expiring contract), too.

I could live with that, very workable. Only possible downside is that okafor is locked up for $5 years and won’t be easily tradeable

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m210/d_julien/18e359fd46456e73e12e3a774877325cc5c.jpg

A big expring contract is a big expiring contract, cap is irrelevant only that the lower the cap is, the "bigger" that contract is.

I don’t follow.

Hypothetically:

If Rip is ~11 and Damp is ~13, that means we chew up almost all of our cap space with that trade, putting us around, what, 56-57 mi. this year (?) but Damp expires after this season.

If the cap were to hold at ~ 58 mil in 10-11, then that 13 mil. coming off the books does give us a lot of wiggle room, enough to sign one big name or 2 more quality pieces. With BG and CV’s ascending deals, we’d be talking, what, 10-11 mil. in additional cap space. That’s a good chunk of money to throw around.

However, if the cap shrinks to say, 53 mil., then Damp’s contract of 13 mil. only creates 5 mil. in cap space.

(the numbers are estimates, but I think the point remains, even if the figures are a bit off)

That’s a scary scenario.

IMO, the way to get value out of Rip is to trade him for talent, not an expiring contract. The uncertainty of the economy and the cap makes clearing cap space suspect for a team like us that’s trying to rebuild.

I could live with that, very workable. Only possible downside is that okafor is locked up for $5 years and won’t be easily tradeable

Uh, why would we want to trade Okafor? He’s exactly the type of C we want to have.

And wouldn’t that give us 3/5 of that UConn team that won it all in ‘04? In the starting lineup no less? I wouldn’t mind. Okafor’s a pimp.

@brgulker: I’m lost.

Current season: Cap @ 58M. With Damp @ 13M gone after this season (at 45M next summer), and cap stays at 58M we get 13M relief. With Rip, he’s still here and there is no relief (Rip @ 11M Damp @ 13M).

Cap @ 53M next summer. Damp leaves and we’re at the same 45M with 8M for next summer. Rip’s here and we’re at 56M (2M less than Damp) we’re 3M over the cap.

If the cap goes down, you’ve got less cap space regarding the expiring contract, but nonetheless, cap space. If you don’t have an expiring contract, the only was to get cap relief is for the cap to go up.

Yeah, if we could somehow snag Okafor for Rip, we have to make that happen.

Losing Rip would be tough. He’s been my favorite Piston since the trade. I absolutely love his offensive game, and the way he scores his points — running of screens, wearing defenders out — in spite of his deficiencies elsewhere.

But, we need a Center, and his contract is going to be a kick in the junk in the last two years when he is declining. He seems like the perfect fit for a young team, where he can contribute offensively and be a mentor. Plus, I do think his game will age well.

The best part about free agency?

CV @ 35M . . so so.
BG @ 55M . . okay.
AI @ vet minimum . . . FUCkING PRICELESS !!

You know he ain’t getting MLE or even Biannual ME. . after making 20M last year and saying he’d rather retire than come off the bench. Get the crochet needles out AI !!

One question is, did Joe have something in mind, maybe partially agreed-to, in terms of The Next Step of getting a quality big? Does he know some other team that is interested in a trade (Rip for Big is the most obvious), or have some plan for a specific diamond-in-the-rough we could likely get for our dwindling dollars? Or does he just assume something decent will present itself? Because he can’t possibly think that a team where the bigs are Kwame, Maxiell, and CV — and that’s it — is OK at the 4-5.

@Toledo Joe

We’re on the same wavelength. There’s no way any GM thinks that our current frontcourt is in any way or shape a competitive NBA frontcourt— we need at least two more guys, and one needs to be a legit center. I’m thinking we probably sign Brandon Bass with the little cash we have left and we get the “legit center” character through a trade involving Rip.

Toledo Joe: I gotta believe he knows something. He certainly wasn’t going to bring Sheed back. He had to know Dyess would be wanted and would go for a ring (God bless him) and then proceeds to trade Amir for a salary dump/cut.

Whatever the parameters, seeing how people were waiting for the official cap numbers to come in and the initial wave of signings for teams to see what’s left, he’s probably got a feel for what he can do.

A couple of things factor in: LA/Hou is talking SnT Ariza/Artest so that they can each keep thier MLE, ditto for Marion/?? Dall/Tor. Lee is getting headlines but nate R still (from what I’ve read) have a single suitor. Millsap hasn’t been extended an offer sheet by anyone. Who knows what Min will do with Rubio and to who. Ditto Amare/GS/Phx.

He’s got some plans but I think they depend on a number of things.

I echo the sentiment for TJ’s point, for the reason of the Amir trade. Something’s still gotta be up.

What’s Pryzbila’s contract like? I’d love to trade for him.

I heard rumors a month or so ago that the Spurs made an offer for ~$3.5/yr. to Yiannis Bouroussis, but nothing official ever materialized. I wonder if he is available, and on any NBA GM’s radar right now. He looks brilliant, experienced, big and from my very loose understanding— available:
http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Yiannis-Bouroussis-118/stats/

Dumars tried to get Pryzbila.. but we ended up with Nazr. And he’s Portland’s best center, they’d never trade him.

@Butters is onto something with Rip/Tay for GWallace/Okafor. It fits with the plan to get young and athletic in a hurry — and as I can tell we have about 4 young Tay-like prospects to grow into the spot behind GW.

Besides, with Walter Herrmann no longer on our squad, we need someone whose name is hard as shit to spell properly. Try it. Yiannis Bouroussis. How’s that work in the anagram tool, TDP?

Why would Charlotte trade their best young post man, and Wallace for an aging shooting guard and an older small forward?

If they do, Jordan is an idiot.

Say what you will about Larry Brown’s infatuation with former players, he was enamored with Iverson and we all know Iverson ain’t going to Charlotte.

I agree with Boney, I don’t see the upside for Charlotte unless they are so desperate to make the playoffs that they’ll screw their future.

Toledo Joe, I think it’s a couple things.

1.) I think Dumars sees this as a two or three off-season process. So, he might not be looking at it like “I need a Center immediately or we’re not going to able to compete for a title.”

2.) I think his vision is an up-tempo team where the big men might be undersized but will be able to get out and run, handles the ball and shoot from the outside.

That’s my guess. That or he has a trade up his sleeve.

We could throw in a future 1st round pick or two, we already have enough youth and some picks might sweeten the pot to entice Charlotte.

QD… The only problem with that theory is Kwame at center.

Well, you need one guy like Kwame at least to combat Dwight Howard (and Shaq for this year). But, there aren’t any young Centers besides maybe Brook Lopez that really scare me.

I think the problem with Okafor is that he’s great for a playoff team, but in order to be a contender you’d need a legit franchise post player. CV31 is primarily a perimeter player that scores with mediocre efficiency when he actually does go down to the post.

If Dumars wants a mobile big man, then Dalembert would be a better fit anyways. That or you trade half the team and 5 future unprotected picks and get Amare.

The new face of Detroit, just tweeted this:
http://twitpic.com/9pr4w

How’s that work in the anagram tool, TDP?

C’mon,MP. Give a guy some credit. I didn’t use the tool for all of ’em. The Thibodeau one, yes. Haha.

*faces

@ MP

Besides, with Walter Herrmann no longer on our squad, we need someone whose name is hard as shit to spell properly. Try it. Yiannis Bouroussis. How’s that work in the anagram tool, TDP?

My favorite:

Raisin Bonus Is Yous

@ QD

1.) I think Dumars sees this as a two or three off-season process. So, he might not be looking at it like "I need a Center immediately or we’re not going to able to compete for a title."

I tend to agree with this. I sincerely hope it’s not your option #2, because of the teams who have won a championship in recent memory, the overwhelming majority have had a dominant, traditional big man.

@ MP and Twitter:

Actually, face is correct, because CV tweeted it.

And the first comment in that twitpic is priceless… and sad at the same time.

I don’t know why Charlotte would give up Okafor. He’s practically a walking double/double. Chad Ford giving out rankings for off season moves ranks the pistons 3 (??), but admits this looks like an unfinished process.

The only reason Charlotte gives up Okafor is for $$ because they are selling the team and have Nazr/Diop to step in, otherwise they’d never answer the phone. If you’ve got Rip/Tay, at least they can replace some of the points they’ll lose from Okafor with Rip because they don’t have a 2 now, exlc’g Raja. And if Wallace is in Brown’s doghouse, Tay can be sold somewhat to the public vs. a fire sale.

Plus, I don’t know how close to the cap the cats are, but with the cap supposedly to be 53M next year, that certainly is going to have an impact on the remaining FAs this year.

Perhaps Jod is waiting towards the end and then offers someone some cash. Said player may not have any other option to either sign for some money or make his current team come forward with a match which might be better than they were willing to offer to start.

But I agree, with only 3 bigs and 96 minutes available (or Tay at PF ala – the Matrix) we’re hosed if two guys get into foul trouble. Well, we’re hosed cause you know kwame will be trouble at least 1/3 of the time. I think he waits it out and let’s some guys sweat or he’s got a “this guy will sign for $X” in his back pocket if push comes to shove.

Forgot: Maybe he signs Plaistaid.

Not likely, Plaisted hurt his back last year and was a project pick. You need to give that guy a few years in europe before you consider signing anything.

I think the guy most likely to be signed would be Dwayne Jones, from the Dleague. He’s already on the summer league roster and was absolutely dominant in the D league (with much more weight than Amir, he won’t get pushed around).

That way you get another serviceable big man on the cheap that, if you’re lucky, can transition into a legit defensive beast.

Quick Darshan:

I agree that maybe Joe is thinking 2-3 years to rebuild, and in principle, I don’t think that’s necessarily be unreasonable. Heck, even if we get all the right pieces, it will likely take them some time to learn how to play together.

But the roster for the coming season — as of now — is absurdly unbalanced, with way too many guards and way too few bigs. I don’t want to watch even one season with Kwame, Maxy, and CV as our only guys at 4-5, with Rip and Gordon battling for minutes (and reminding us of Rip and AI), and with AA the odd man out (assuming Stuckey and MFWB play point and take other guard minutes). And I sure as hell don’t want to see any more 3-guards-plus-Tayshaun-plus-one-big “small ball.”

The current roster is inevitably doomed to failure — and I say that as a guy who continued to hope the AI experiment would work out some way or other. But the current roster would be both painful to watch and a guaranteed ticket to the lottery. And it would be so bad/unbalanced that it would, like last year, inhibit the development of the young players, especially Stuckey, who really deserves a shot at playing point guard on a team with a semi-normal and regular lineup.

But all of that is really obvious. Which makes me think that Joe D. must be thinking of at least a little something else for this year. I hope it’s something good.

@ Ali: Jones – good call.

http://www.nba.com/pistons/news/gordon_villanueva_090708.html

Iverson will not be getting his raisin bonus this year.

Boney, another way to look at the aging Shooting Guard and older Small Forward is a big chunk of a team that won year after year, an NCAA title Holder, An Olympic Gold Medalist, and Two NBA Champions. But I still think Charlotte doesn’t go for it. ’cause Rip & Prince have high miles on those legs.

http://www.nba.com/dleague/playerfile/index.jsp?player=dwayne_jones

those are his D-League numbers. Top notch, problem is the majority of the points probably came off dunks. I don’t think we’ll see the same problem as Amir because Jones already has a big frame and can likely put on another 20 pounds if necessary.

I’m really liking what I’m reading, if all this is true, fuck Okafor, we can get a guy with his defensive ability for a tenth of the cost.
http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Dwayne-Jones-438/

Looks like a possible Tyson Chandler in the making, only difference would be the soft hands. But I can live with that considering that he’s supposed to be a really hard worker and my guess is eventually he’ll eventually become a solid shot blocker that dunks here and there.

Then you can save Rip for an actual deal. Perhaps Rip and CV31 for Amare in a sign and trade with Pheonix in 2010?

Ali: The current pool of available C’s seems to be either impossibly expensive or not much of an upgrade: I’m down with your D-Leaguer idea.

I also like the sound of Jones. He has good size and seems to be a good defender. The DraftExpress article says he “gets his points almost exclusively off of offensive rebounds and hard cuts to the rim.” He has basically no offensive game; he can’t dribble or pass. I don’t care. Having a low-usage player that understands his limitations and works hard is good.

Tyson Chandler is not any good at basketball. Not a great rebounder, terrible on offense, and is a very overrated defender. CP3 made him look good for one (1) year, and now it seems like people think he’s Ben Wallace pt. 2— not the case. If this Dwayne Jones character actually resembled a “Tyson Chandler in the making,” that would mean he will eventually become a player who isn’t good at basketball? That sounds terrible.

buys joel 200 beers

thank you, thank you, thank you.

as for Dwayne Jones, I remember watching him in the summer league last year, was quite surprised. He hasn’t done so well in the NBA, but his d-league numbers are decent. If we don’t sign or trade for anyone soon, I wouldn’t mind tossing him a short, low $ contract as a backup to our backup.

Bring on Chris Mihm !! 7’ 250 with legit post moves.

But I do like what I read with Jones. And with the deleted tweet re: Deron Washington – 6’7" – could guard the Kobe’s/Wade’s with his athleticism (of course he’s not going to get any calls) but also could fill in short-term at the 3. But that just makes our roster even more guard heavy so I’m thinking something’s up.

I don’t hink I’m too hip on CV/Rip for Amare. Particularly since Phx already has a shitload of money in J-Rich at the 2. We exchange 30 points for 25 and have the same number of rebounds. And I think Amare flips if you ask him to play the 5, and then we’re still a guy short at 4/5.

Amare = Boozer-rebounding

Is that really worth the money you know his ego will demand?

That reads “Boozer minus rebounding,” in case anybody doesn’t get it.

@ Joel

I thought you meant that Amare rebounds a lot of Boozers.

I thought you meant that Amare had his heart broken and was taking solace in alcoholic beverages.

LOL

@ TJ

The current roster is inevitably doomed to failure — and I say that as a guy who continued to hope the AI experiment would work out some way or other. But

I was on the “I hope AI works out train” until the ‘back injury,’ and even after it, frankly. I still think it could have worked out if AI wasn’t such a dill weed; he could be someone’s ultimate super sub.

I also agree with you about the roster imbalance. With QD, I think this is at least a 2-year process. We aren’t going to contend next year. We’re going to be middle-of-the-road in the EC. We’ll have the firepower to make some noise like Orlando did against Cleveland. If BG gets hot, he can take over a game or two, and we could pull an upset. But, we need a big man, and it’s looking more and more like that’s going to be a while. I’m guessing we’ll end up signing someone to the vet’s minimum or perhaps snag a guy like Bass to a two-year deal. Competitive, but not great.

All that to say, three big men simply won’t cut it — unless Daye magically gains 40 pounds and becomes a beast. Especially when the third big is 6’8" on a good day.

Jones seems like a good fit, his strengths match up with our weaknesses.

Here’s a nice, quick statistical breakdown of Jones when he came out of college, and his closest historical comps (he’s #4 on the list):
http://hoopsanalyst.com/ew20.htm

Quick summary:

Rebounds and blocks shots well. Limited offensively. Very similar college career to Tony Battie and Keon Clark. Basically Jones should be a solid defensive minded C/PF, probably best used as a reserve, but a useful rotation piece nonetheless. And he’d be cheap to sign.

brgulker, Regarding my option two. For what it’s worth, I think Dumars ideal frontcourt is a pre-Pistons Rasheed (when he was still thin and mobile) and a young Ben Wallace.

A multi-skilled power forward and a rebounding/shot-blocking center both of whom are mobile enough to guard the pick and roll and make quick rotations.

That’s my guess. I think he feels that Villanueva, Daye, Jerebko or Summers can be that multi-skilled guy. I don’t know if he’s found the other one yet.

As of now, there are two roster spots open (if they choose to use them, which they don’t have to). I could see Dumars bringing in Bass and giving this Jones kid a partially guaranteed contract.

I posted the idea of a Rip/Okafor trade on BobcatsBaseline and ASChin, one of the moderators, mentioned that Bobcat bloggers have actually discussed trading for Rip. I offered Rip and a pick for Okafor, or MBinSC’s idea of Rip&Tay for G.Wallace&Okafor:

We’ve been thinking about a Rip Hamilton deal here at the Baseline. It seems that Joe Dumars is collecting former Huskies and Okafor would be a great fit on the frontline with Charlie V.

I like the first deal a lot more than the second one. I just don’t think that Tayshaun is as good as Gerald at this point – especially with Wallace being a full 2 years younger. Although the shorter length of Prince’s contract might make the ‘Cats at least consider it.

The biggest issue with either of those deals is Rip’s contract. He’s 31 years old and is owed $12/year for the next four seasons – finally expiring when he turns 36(!). Now, is Rip a "Reggie Miller" type player who won’t degrade seriously with age? That’s what the ‘Cats would have to determine.

I would counter offer with:
Gerald, Emeka
FOR:
Tayshaun, Rip, 1st rounder

OR:
Gerald, Emeka, (Diop/Radman/Nazr)
FOR:
Tayshaun, Rip, Maxiell

And then work from there.

Kay Wan:

Damn, either of those trades the Bobcats blogger suggested would be fine with me. If anything resembling those deals are actually within the realm of possibility, I hope Jod would pull the trigger.

Great work, Kay Wan. Most of us Pistons fans are sentimental about the championship-team core…but I would jump all over the Bobcat blogger’s counter-offer: Wallace+Okafor for Prince+Hamilton+pick.

The first counter-offer would make the Pistons a super-athletic and very young team. And it works in the ESPN trade machine…

I would even take the second offer of Rip/Tay/Max for Okafor/Wallace/Diop, as long as we can sign Brandon Bass, which is basically just upgrading Maxiell.

Stuckey/Bynum
Gordon/Afflalo/Washington
Wallace/Summers/Jerebko
Villanueva/Bass/Daye
Okafor/Diop/Brown

Diop has a horrible contract for his production level, but if Villanueva doesn’t pan out, we could package their contracts together in a sign-and-trade for Bosh this summer (Villanueva/Diop/Summers/pick for Bosh, that would probably be one of the best offers Toronto could get.)

I don’t know, but either of ASChin’s proposals would get me hyped. If all else fails, Rip and a pick for Okafor straight up would give us exactly what we need (one defensive-anchoring center, and minus-one 20ppg shooting guard).

Someone get Jod on the phone, stat!

Blow it up, Jod! Make the Pistons a 26-and-younger team! Do it!

This is truly shaping up to be the summer of Jod.

Stuckey/Bynum
Gordon/Afflalo/Washington
Wallace/Summers/Jerebko
Villanueva/Bass/Daye
Okafor/Diop/Brown

= championship

we can drive, we can hit the 3, we can play in the post, we can defend, we can block shots, we’re young, energetic, a core of winners at a different level. the second year that squad is together could be a championship contender. i’d love if we could work out that deal…

oh, and I’d much rather have Nazr than Diop if we could be choosey.

This is truly shaping up to be the summer of Jod.

Lol, because Kay Wan asked a blogger a question?

I mean, great work Kay Wan — that’s pretty awesome stuff you just did.

But, there might be a bit of distance between a random blog inquiry and something actually happening …

But, if that could work, I don’t see how Jod doesn’t do it.

@ MP:

Yeah, that roster sounds like a serious contender in a year or two, assuming that Coach Q*bert knows what he’s doing. If not, I guess his cheap contract ($1.5M/year, right?) would enable Jod to can him and hire a Larry-Brown-type coach for the championship run…as he alluded to the other day.

But, there might be a bit of distance between a random blog inquiry and something actually happening…

@ brgulker:

Never underestimate the power of DBB. “coachDP,” I’m convinced, is none other than one Michael Curry.

Never underestimate the power of DBB. "coachDP," I’m convinced, is none other than one Michael Curry.

…semi-serious.

I think its safe to say we’ve all put our stamp of approval on this offer.

Somebody set up a conference call with Jod and MJ. Didn’t Dumars name one of his kids after Jordan? That should be worth an additional draft pick or something.

@brgulker:

Thanks, man. I know this offer might not even be on the table in reality, and who knows if Dumars ever gets the opportunity to pull the trigger on a deal like this. But this at least gives me hope that Dumars has options that could make us a serious team sooner rather than later. I’d rather have a legitimate hope for a win-win deal rather than try to figure out if I’d rather take back Dalembert’s horrible contract, Dampier’s horrible contract, or Chandler’s horrible contract.

This gives me hope that this summer isn’t a loss, and dammit, that’s good enough for me.

Rather rather rather. Sorry about the redundancy.

Wow this sort of blew up in Nike’s face, didn’t it?

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4315071

A few hits on YouTube would’ve been that worst that happened if they had just let it be.

“Stuckey/Bynum
Gordon/Afflalo/Washington
Wallace/Summers/Jerebko
Villanueva/Bass/Daye
Okafor/Diop/Brown”

I would go “oopsy” in my pants if this was the rotation..

If Joe swings a deal for Okafor, Wallace and Diop and gives up the old guys (Tay and Rip)?

Jesus christ… I’m having wet dreams already

I just don’t understand why the Bobcats would trade Okafur for a guard and small forward. That leaves them with 2 stiffs at center, Nazr & Diop. Well, I forgot they traded Richardson and could use a high scorer at the guard spot, ala Rip. So maybe it makes sense I guess. We better figure something out because we have no center fella’s.

But I must say that is a very attractive line-up then.

Kay Wan, I take it you guys didn’t look at the photo i posted.

Here it is again
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m210/d_julien/18e359fd46456e73e12e3a774877325cc5c.jpg

I doubt you get Diop out of that deal. Jordan is a bad GM, but LB wouldn’t let him trade away all of his front line for a guard and a fragile SF

The bobcats trade would be awesome and why couldn’t something like this be done , I’m a firm beleiver that anybody can be gotten if the price is right ,for those two guys I wouldn’t care if we offer Tay ,Rip and 2 number 1’s or Tay ,Rip,Max and a number 1 if they throw in one of the extra’s.Now that Jod knows the salary cap numbers I don’t think he’ll wait too long to make a deal.

yeah, that’s not fair that the Bobcats would have any issues with making that deal..

how dare them not want to give up their best post player for a guy who was described as “a guy who would likely have his best year since 04 because he’ll be back in LB’s system” by a commenter from DBB and talked a Bobcats blogger admin into making some skeevy trade…

look at the fucking Bobcats, it’s not like they make logical deals… it’s not surprising that a Bobcats blogger Admin would deal away their best young talent and Wallace (who if healthy, is on the same level as Tay if not better in my opinion)… If I was MJ, this is a deal that I finally don’t get ripped off on.

If he doesn’t want Maxiell though, we can always give them Kwame :)

Realgm.com has Bass narrowing his choices to Orlando,Portland or the Pistons maybe Jod’s already made a move.

oops

/sarcasm ^

No, you want Kwame. He actually put up good numbers after the all star break and definitely is one of the best players in the league for the $4 mil you pay him

Uh, if moving Kwame gets us Okafor, I don’t think we need to start pining away for Kwame’s ‘bargain’ production.

I disagree, then you still have only 3 bigs, 4 if you count Bass (who’s no guarantee). You need to have at least 4 or 5 bigs to win right now.

I think we should target Leon Powe. He’ll be cheap and another guy that offers more production than what you pay for.

http://www.mlive.com/pistons/index.ssf/2009/07/detroit_pistons_will_target_br.html

Yes for Bass.
No for moving Afflalo. Maybe this is what the Deron Washington signing was foreshadowing? I’d rather pull of a blockbuster which might save us some cash (with hm, I don’t know, maybe Charlotte??) so we can keep Afflalo and grab Bass, too.

I like Spellcheck too, but after the Gordon acquisition and the emergence of MFWB as a scorer and defender, Afflalo is expendable—and he probably has a lower ceiling than Deron Washington.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!! Afflalo must stay. End of story. He’ll be really important to the team in a few years, possibly sooner if Rip is traded. It’ll come in handy big time to have 3 defensive stoppers (I think MFWB deserves to be on the list of pesky defenders), especially if say both LeBron and Williams are feeling it.

I totally disagree that Afflalo has a lower ceiling than Washington. Afflalo has a better jumpshot, has a better handle and a better first step. He has the potential to become a solid 17 ppg starting SG in the future. Washington still has a shaky jumpshot and can’t take people off the dribble, meaning he’s a defensive rotation player unless if something dramatic happens.

The only advantage Washington has is jumping ability to block shots, but that’s why you can have him lock down on small forward and Afflalo take out the opposing point guard or shooting guard.

I disagree, then you still have only 3 bigs, 4 if you count Bass (who’s no guarantee). You need to have at least 4 or 5 bigs to win right now.

Trading for Okafor is about winning NOW and winning LATER. He is so far superior to Kwame that it’s laughable.

So we only have 3 bigs. At least one of them is a walking double double. Sign a vet to the vet minimum and then go get another serviceable big next summer.

In other words, NEXT YEAR we’re not contenders with Kwame starting, no matter who we bring in as our fourth big. We’re possibly contenders with Okafor, even with a vet minimum player. In TWO TO THREE years (which is what Jod is going for, me thinks), we’ll have had time to add another quality big to go alongside the beast that is Okafor.

In other words (again), Okafor is the kind of big man you build around, even if it means being patient for a year. Kwame, while serviceable and a bargain for the price, is expendable, the kind of piece you would add to a team that’s close but don’t hesitate to move when you’re rebuilding.

I totally disagree that Afflalo has a lower ceiling than Washington. Afflalo has a better jumpshot, has a better handle and a better first step. He has the potential to become a solid 17 ppg starting SG in the future.

I don’t know much about Washington, and I do like AA. But 17 ppg? In what league?

At best, he’s a system player — like SA or LA — where they already some studs. 12-14 ppg is his highest, skyscraper ceiling.

Both Afflalo and (reportedly) Washington are good defenders. Washington, though, might be a tougher cover for LBJ (or any star swingman), in comparison to Afflalo, who in the NBA has become a spot-up perimeter shooter.

I CAN TYPE IN CAPS LOCKS TOO. It’s not very difficult, most people are capable of doing it.

Br, what do you do when two of them get into foul trouble? It doesn’t work, in the regular season you have to have 4 solid bigs, 5 would be preferable.

And no, Okafor is not an all star center. He’s a very good defensive center, but he’s overpaid and does not have a reliable post game. If he did, we’d all be calling him the next Shaq by now. He’s a guy that you can definitely win with, but don’t kid yourself about him. Besides, in case you didn’t notice, I happened to have brought up Okafor a few days ago when we were talking about Dalembert and Przybilla.

Afflalo is a stud. Just look at how well he finishes, 62.1% eFG%! Yes those numbers will go down, but look at it this way. He’s already a better range shooter and finisher than Rip, just wait until he becomes he learns how to move without the ball more.

Not a guy that can go for 30 at any given time, but he can easily provide consistent storing.

Dude… brgulker.. WTF

So, if Detroit does NOT get Okafor this offseason is a fucking failure?

I believe Okafor is a solid option, but after all of the semi-decent trades you’ve proposed in the past now all of the sudden Okafor/Rip is great and fair to you?

No shit we’d make that deal… If Jordan called Dumars and said “I was thinking… Okafor for Ri…” Joe would say “yes! we’ll take it” and hang up before Jordan can finish.

Okafor is semi-realistic but, not likely. Put your erection away

Ali,

You want credit for bringing up Okafor a few days ago? How about Okafor was brought up as early as the trade deadline last season.

Many thanks to all of you guys up in the motor city.

You’ve inspired a post:

http://www.bobcatsbaseline.com/blog/?p=853

I’m not sure how that would affect our cap for the years coming but at first glance I like the idea a lot ASChin!!! Sign me up!

Matrix to the Mavs:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4314637

if you are feeling bad about the gordon’s contract at least we didn’t pay varejao 50 million for the next couple years.

Joe Dumars need to take a grenade and through it in the Pistons Locker room. This next season already looking bad unless Joe D. can make some serious moves.

I didn’t see Varejao sign somewhere for $50 mil

Sorry, I just read the article…that’s fuckin’ ridiculous. I REALLY love the Charlie V signing now.

it kinda puts everything in perspective now. if that jerkoff varejao is worth that much (and he isn’t as everyone but danny ferry seems to know) then cv and bg are steals.

K Brown is the Pistons only center and we trying to make moves for Power Forwards, I don’t get it. The sad part is their really no good centers out their. I’m thinking the Pistons shouldn’t invest too much time in getting PF’s to play Center because it’s not going to work. Maybe they can find some good young Center talent until the Pistons can fill in the patches.

@ Boney

So, if Detroit does NOT get Okafor this offseason is a fucking failure?

I believe Okafor is a solid option, but after all of the semi-decent trades you’ve proposed in the past now all of the sudden Okafor/Rip is great and fair to you?

Not sure I have an erection, and I’m not sure I’m any more excited about the idea than anyone else, for that matter.

In fact, it sounds like we’re pretty much on the same page? If the deal is on the table, Jod should make it.

That’s all I think. Nothing more, nothing less.

As to this offseason being a failure:

If Jod doesn’t acquire another player who can play Center, then I don’t see any other way of looking at things. We have three big men on the roster, and only one of them is capapble of playing C, and his name is Kwame Brown. Now, can Kwame do some good things? I think we’ve all agreed he can. But a starting C? Is that what any of us expected going into this summer?

Okafor is an almost automatic double double. Believe it or not, that’s actually hard to find in the NBA. After all the discussion about how we’re not overpaying Gordon (a marginally efficient SG, who are relatively easy to find), it’s hard for me to buy the overpaid argument with respect to Okafor.

@ Ali,

I didn’t mean the caps to be offensive, just emphasizing the the contrast between now and future. No offense intended.

I think we are going to have to agree to disagree about AA — and fwiw, I sincerely hope you’re right. I’d love it if we had a future 17 ppg scorer in AA. Time will tell.

Have any of you seen the M.Live(via Piston Powered) article that suggests we’re trying to clear more cap space to sign Bass?

According to that article, AA is the most likely piece that we’d move to clear that space. There’s also a rumor (via Piston Powered via Mlive) that Gordon might start over Rip.

Which got my wheels spinning: If we’re going to move AA, then doesn’t it seem much less likely that we’d move Rip?

guys are you paying attention to what I’m saying? I said you don’t trade Kwame Brown as part of that deal because you need 4 bigs. I never said don’t do the trade period

I just saw the Varejo signing. WTF ?? No one bidding for him, I gotta believe if Bron called him up and said before you sign somewhere, gimme a call and let me talk to Danny and Varejo says OK. And with new cap numbers expected next year, things blowing up for Rattner and Brooklyn, Bron probably isn’t leaving. Best case Shaq plays out, they move Varejo to the 5 and bring in Bosh next summer.

The guy puts up 8/8/.75 when they could have signed Lee for 1-2M more a year and gotten 16/10/1.5 with a better shot to open things up for Shaq for at least this year. Hell, they could’ve signed Odom for that much probably for 3 years with a team option for 4 and been in better shape should Bron leave. I read according to Chad Ford via quote that the last year isn’t fully guaranteed ??and/or 7.5M of the total is in incentives. Still, thank you Danny for making the Cavs irrelavent for another decade should Bron leave. This is a pure “I shit my pants” panic move by the Cavs to appease their fans. Good thing we’re not greedy impatient fans like those folks. . .lol

As for the trade proposals: Anyone got Jod’s number? Hell, we make that trade 2 days ago and I think that Dyess may have come back. As for AA, I think he can be a 12-14 pt scorer in this league and has demonstrated the willingness to be a lock down defender. He’s strong enough to finish at the hole and can hit the 3 (which does need more work). If we can get the Cats to make that deal by adding Max and taking back a Diop/Nazr, I’m in. But I don’t believe the Cats would want to go that route since it’d leave them with only 1 center. The whole reason to add Diop/Nazr would be to shed a shitty contract and subsequently adding Dalembert duplicates that error. If we had to add AA to make that deal work, I’m in and it gives them a 2 and a good backup 2. Though I do like AA alot and if Rip was gone would not mind him starting and BG still being 6th man.

As for contracts, Wallace’s expires in 4 years if I read correctly? In two years I would expect Daye to assert himself, one year of steady play and then Wallace becomes an expiring contract the follwoing year. Plus, without Bass I think we got ~3-5M left? We make that trade, do nothing else and we are at next year’s cap number already and have a really young and athletic team, would need to resign MFWB and still have a good number of reasonable contracts for alot of young talent. One of the hang ups is folks looking from the perspective (as per the blog) that LB likes to coach guys he’s had before. That’s a problem with LB and the Cats future because history says LB moves on in 2 years so it might be a good sell now but MJ will get his head taken off if LB leaves and things blow up. OTOH, MJ and a group of investors buy the Cat, he can tell everyone to piss off.

Again, anybody got Jod’s number? Matt?

Something to consider with Gerald Wallace is that he’s very reckless. He’s a great defender, but he gambles a lot and ends up being injured a lot. He’s never played 82 games as a result (or even above 72 for that matter).

Just something to keep in mind. On paper, Wallace is better than Tayshaun, but an injured Wallace is useless while a weak Tayshaun at least gives you some production.

Dall/Tor – Marion trade complex and just read. The thing that sticks out is that Anthony Parker signed with Cavs on Wed and the trade will most likely preclude Dall from re-signing Bass. It also said Port was ready to make a toxic offer to Millsap so the Jazz wouldn’t match and that he agreed to backup up Aldridge. Also read where Bargs signing 50M/5 just drove up the price of Aldridge to 11M/yr minimum.

Our new contracts are looking better by the day, though Aldridge at 10M would seem to be reasonable for Port. And it appears AI is headed for Memphis. I can’t think of a worse “role” model for a young team. Stern should make Hiesley sell the Grizz, it appears he has channeled his inner McHale GM.

lol yeah, it’ll be the jailblazers all over again, except with no Sheed to go to on charity drives or hospitals etc and lighten the effect.

Yeah I saw that too, but is Milsap really worth overpaying that much? If he was starting maybe, but coming off the bench?

@ ALI: Well, if B. Roy is hitting problems regarding contract talks (5 yrs vs. 4 yrs) and you gotta pick between the two, take Roy let LA walk and you have his replacement already familiar with the system.

If you want Aldridge & Roy, you can trade/let walk, Pryz, have LA backup Oden and Millsap at the 4. But I agree, having Millsap backup LA for tons of cash doens’t make sense but you could make it toxic only for this year (and maybe next) since the Jazz are way over the cap with a declining value so if things blow up he’d be easier to trade.

Marriagevow is not worth 50million clams. Holy shit. I’m surprised they didn’t sign Jordan Crawford to keep him from dunking on Lebron.

@ Ali:

guys are you paying attention to what I’m saying? I said you don’t trade Kwame Brown as part of that deal because you need 4 bigs. I never said don’t do the trade period

I agree, we need 4 bigs. So, do the trade, and sign someone to the vet minimum for this season. Then, use make a move for another quality big next summer.

It’s as simple as that.

You’re saying we can’t do the deal if it requires moving Kwame. I’m saying we can, because the trade wouldn’t be only about this year.

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I’m surprised no one really addressed moving AA for cap space to sign Bass. I see some comments about packaging him with someone else if need be, but the rumor is doing with AA what we did with Amir — trading him for cap space.

Am I the only one who thinks that’s stupid? And am I the only one who thinks that if we did that, it would mean moving Rip is less likely?

@Skylar: lol

yeah, 50M. You know the Jazz/knicks are just sitting there looking a that contract and cussing the hell outta Ferry. The only way this makes sense is if they let Shaq walk and pick up Bosh next summer and move Anderson to the 5. The flip side is if they win it with Shaq and the fans don’t want to break up the core (as will Shaq letting them know) so you’re stuck with resigning Shaq and pay boatload of lux tax.

You got Shaq who will clog the middle and I believe trim down on Bron’s drives, Anderson who can’t hit the backboard with a shotgun from 10 feet, adding more folks in the lane. I guess it’s sorta like last year with Ben W. & Anderson regarding the lane. But I believe the guys is 26 and he’s hit his ceiling offensively I think.

I also think this has to do with last time and Anderson feeling he got shafted in talks and them not wanting him to sniff anything else (as if there would be, except Port) and wanting him to get into the fold ASAP. Of course, this is the team that traded for Wallace’s 14M/yr contract so it’s not like Ferry hasn’t overpaid before.

Re: Bass in your face, I think he is the Jailblazers’ contingency plan if they fail to acquire Milsap.

brgulker: No. I think if AA gets moved, we don’t move Rip.

However, Jod did say he could see Stuck playing some 2 (assuming with MFWB) so we’d still have a 3 guard rotation without Rip. I think AA is great value for the money and unless Jod doesn’t want to tie up money after next year and wants to resign MFWB then I can see this being done in the short term. However, I’m too lazy to verify all the cash that would be needed.

Plus, we’re 3-5M below now, add ~1.5M AA salary dump, so we’re going to offer Bass 4-5M with some cash left over to fill out the roster, assuming D. Jones pans out. Is Bass RFA or UFA? As much money as Cuban is doling out this summer for 30+ year old players, he better hope he’s got a Kandar or Obamacare comes thru. I also did not realize J. Howard turned 30 this year. That’s a ball club geared to winning within the next two years then lottery bound being in the west. And I don’t see how a Dirk/Gortat matches up with LA’s front line (especially if they resign Odom) or Denver’s front line. But I do think Cuban has improved his roster and with Marion/Howard on the wings and Dirk trailing that is a fastbreak team if Kidd doesn’t breakdown before the allstar game.

This is a pretty sweet off-season so far! Lots of movement and craziness.

Agreed, Garrett. I’m going to be sad in another week or so when the nba goes dormant after all the summer leagues/fa signings. Some real super powers emerging now, with la/dal/spurs and celts/magic/cavs. I think the east is looking interesting in the middle, with atl/wash/stones all making big moves.

brgulker: No. I think if AA gets moved, we don’t move Rip.

Which seems silly to me. The only way I can see for us to get a legit big is to move Rip or Tay.

Why would we move a young, promising player with a tiny contract for nothing in return to acquire another PF? I really like Bass and all, but he’s basically an upgraded Max, isn’t he?

So why would we dump a promising young SG to get another, better Maxiel?

brgulker: I agree. AA is worth his money. Moving AA doesn’t neccesairly mean not moving Rip. If the rumor was true that D. Washington is coming, the minutes AA would have gotten will go to him, what there is of them. I think he’s a nice complement and you know he makes guys work in practice against whomever he is guarding. Having watched his demeanor here at UCLA and so far in the NBA, he seems like a connsumate pro and you can never have too many of those guys on your team.

But Washington is unproven! I don’t get it. I understand trading him. But just dumping him? And then making Maxiel redundant on top of it all? Odd.

Washington is taller and more athletic than Afflalo, and supposedly improve in shooting the rock and playing D. That why Joey D. have no problem trading Afflalo to land Bass.

joe, your use of the word “supposedly” just proves my point: Washington is unproven.