It’s contagious!

I’d just like to congratulate Joel for his dismantling of Bryan Colangelo (in the comment cited by MW), and for re-introducing the word “choad” into the DBB lexicon. Though I prefer the spelling “chode.”

Yep, Joel lit that motherfucker up somethin fierce.

Joel lit a good one…too bad he should’ve gotten his facts straight…

BC ain’t the “Architect” of the Redeem Team. His father was. His father’s name is Jerry. And if BC isn’t going to get credit for bringing Steve Nash to the Suns, then who should? Cuban for not matching or offering more to keep him?

I can understand why Joel wants to rant, the Pistons did have a less-than-exciting off-season. And just to let you know, Charlie V is actually the worst defender in the entire NBA, but Turk’s not far behind, just not as bad as Charlie.

@HateRaid:
How much less did Charlie V cost the Pistons than Turkoglu cost the Raptors?

$16 million Mike.

Zat how much you’re making off your 1,000,000 VPD’s on your blog, Deeetroit?

I’ll cut to the chase about Amir…one of the lowest basketball IQs in the league. Great skill set, great ability, no doubt, but his brain gets in his way far too often for him to be effective.

Amir Johnson, we will regret trading him one day…

Amir is going to be a stud for the Raps. The key thing is that he will be playing with a top-five PG in Caldy – who will be able to get him the ball. I’m pretty sure Amir would have had a decent year with the Pistons if he played along side Billups all year.

He brings rebounding, shot-blocking and athleticism — three things that have been in short supply on this team.

Hm. Some team could talk themselves into Darko the exact same way. I like Amir and hope he succeeds, but he’s Stro Swift until he proves otherwise.

I guess you could say Amir is young, has a lot of tools/potential, and that last year with Detroit wasn’t a great year for a young guy to develop, given the turmoil and the weird and frequently-shifting lineups.

You could also say he was given a ton of chances, was playing with and for a while starting with, some very good, experienced players on a playoff team, and yet he still couldn’t figure out some really basic stuff, like how not to get 3 fouls in 5 minutes of playing time or how to make basic defensive rotations.

I wish Amir well, but he’s going to have to show me something to shed the “low basketball IQ” label. I keep remembering ’Sheed’s line about Amir needing to read some books.

"The key thing is that he will be playing with a top-five PG in Caldy "

A proof.

If Calderon is a top five PG then the Raptors will make the playoffs.
It is not the case that the Raptors made the playoffs.
Therefore either Calderon is not a top 5 PG.

I’ll throw some ad hominum in there for good measure and say that Bosh isn’t a top 5 big man either, mostly because I think he’s a douche for expecting max money when he’s done nothing of the sort to deserve it.

Therefore either Calderon…

It’s a bit unfair to judge Calderon’s value based on his performance last year. The guy was injured pretty much the whole time.

I expect a much bigger year from him this year. And yes, probably a playoff appearance. Probably.

How do we judge his performance then? The one good season the Raps had two years ago with Calderon splitting starting minutes with TJ Ford? In 5 less MPG off the bench, he averaged pretty much the same points, assists, rebounds, and steals, shot better from 3-point range and better from the field. He’s yet to do shit as a starting PG, with literally no statistical improvement other than FT%. I’m not even sure he sniffs the top ten PG’s right now. Classic Ginobili case— dynamite in spurts, underachieving when expected to be “the man.”

Joel:

Agreed that Calderon definitely is NOT a top-5 pg. But let’s not go overboard and say things like: “Classic Ginobili case– dynamite in spurts, underachieving when expected to be "the man."”

For the last 5-6 years Ginbili has been the 3rd best SG in the league after Kobe and Wade. Brandon Roy clearly passed him this past season, but still, come on. For all his flopping and whining the guy is a baller with essentially no offensive weaknesses.

Top 5 PG? Billups, Nash, Parker, D-Will, Paul, Kidd.

That’s just in 10 seconds without thinking.

I concur that Bosh isn’t top 5 also, particularly demanding a max contract.

I wish Amir well, but he will play less than more this year unless Toronto wants to be the SSOL suns of the east. Which is what I believe BC is/was trying to construct.

It’s a bit unfair to judge Calderon’s value based on his performance last year.

Unfair to judge him based on his actual performance in his only season as a starter? You know, maybe Amir really is a perfect fit for this team…

@Gabe

When healthy, Ginobili’s no doubt one of the top SG’s in the league. But my point is that while he was a good starting SG for the Spurs in ’04-06, he made the All-Star team as a reserve. His points went up, his efficiency went up, and he became a much more dangerous all-around player in the reserve role where he could come in guns blazing and brutalize second units. His three best statistical seasons by far have been his last three as the designated 6th man. Like Jason Terry, and hopefully like Ben Gordon with us this year.

Shinons with the zinger.

Top 5 PG? Billups, Nash, Parker, D-Will, Paul, Kidd.

Those are the six best Top 5’s I’ve ever seen.

Caldy has an out of this world 9:2 assist:turnover ratio. Ridiculous. He shoots 50 percent from the field, 40 percent from three and is automatic from the free throw line. Those are solid PG numbers.

With those numbers, I think Caldy fits in the group around and/or behind Paul/Deron/Rose/Billups/Rondo.

Saying Top-five was just a figure of speech – I think he’s an elite PG in the league. Numbers don’t lie.

Shinons AND TDP with zingers!

If numbers don’t lie, then what about a point guard who averaged 19 ppg, 7.6 apg with 3.0 to/g? That’s an elite point guard too, right? Nope, actually it’s Stephon Marbury.

Elite point guards elevate their team – Paul won 49 games. D-Will won 48 games. Denver won 54 games. A shell of the former Suns won 46. Kidd in his prime carried the Nets every year. Toronto won 33 games. Until he quarterbacks a team that isn’t garbage, he belongs nowhere near the discussion of elite point guards.

Even though he comes off the bench, Ginobli plays starter minutes. He’s lethal when healthy.

Dear “FactsRHere”,

You said: “I can understand why Joel wants to rant, the Pistons did have a less-than-exciting off-season. And just to let you know, Charlie V is actually the worst defender in the entire NBA, but Turk’s not far behind, just not as bad as Charlie.”

I say: “The Toronto Gnaptors only had an ‘exciting’ offseason because they made a few trades and acquired Hedo Turkeyglue. Great moves by Colangelo, except for the fact that now Andrea Bargnani has by far the most untradeable contract (next to Turkeyglue) in the NBA. Add that to the fact that your comment claims that Charlie V is the worst defender in the entire NBA and I will point you towards your teams entire starting 5, and say that I trust Charlie V guarding his man straight up over any of your team’s starting 5”.

I also say: "Amir Johnson had his chances in Detroit, and showed flashes. If Milwaukee doesn’t want you, and they need big man help tremendously, then I don’t know how else to prove it to you silly canadians that Amir Johnson is not the answer. Playing Amir with a “real PG” when he’s played with a team his entire career that is better than ANY Toronto Gnaptors team has ever put on the floor, isn’t going to make a difference."

To “Pardeep Toor” I say: “Amir has played alongside one of the best point guards in the NBA his entire career. He has played on a team that has not had a back to the basket big man his entire career. He could’ve stepped up and been that guy this past season. He was given the starting position and he lost it. He is the reason why he didn’t play, not the team. He had chances to show his worth, and he didn’t do it consistently.”

" I never would have dreamed that my NBA binky would be a Toronto Raptor for the 2009-10 season…"

Hilarious!

Shinons,

Don’t talk about YOUR facts. Talk about THEIR facts!

That way you can sip the kool aid too! Besides, teams who have the color purple in their logos are too easy to make fun of.

I thought Toronto lost the purple a season or two ago.

Damn it, Boney. Why’d you have to phrase it “the color purple?” Now all I can think about is this.

Damn. Not that there was much controversy surrounding it after last season, but Chicago definitely made the right choice in drafting Rose.

Maybe Beasley will see Bob Saget in rehab.

TDP: I was never very good with numbers . . and I’m an accountant.

PD Toor – Calderon? I’m too lazy, but when was the last time toronto won a playoff series? He had some help last year with O’Neal in the middle, Bosh (a top 5 player by his own recognition), Kapono, then followed up with Moon and Matrix and Parker. Decent talent, for which they did what last year? Or the year before?

Boney: The Raps are pretty bad on the defensive end – I’ll give you that.

But if you are expecting Charlie to put up any kind of resistance (and I mean ANY kind of resistance) on defense, you sadly have your expectations far too high.

Your angst is understandable considering your team’s recent (and soon to be continued) plummet out of the spotlight.

No offense meant of course – until recently we Raps fans were the experts in watching our team become terrible year after year.

MarkButter: The Vince Carter days were the last time the Raps won a playoff series. But that has nothing to do with Calderon.

Help last year? O’Neal was actually pretty terrible, and if you are suggesting Kapono was a HELP to the team, you haven’t paid a whole lot of attention.

Actually, despite the drawbacks of the starting lineup, game after game the starters would build a lead (even against some of the best teams in the league), only to see the Raps’ record-setting bad second unit come in and lose it immediately. This was also a common theme the second half of 07-08 when Caldy was starting.

Oh, and they never had BOTH JO and the Matrix, so your list of talent is a little off. And when Caldy was finally back to 100% and the matrix came over, they did finish the season 9-4 (or something like that).

Minor Langlois-ism from his latest mailbag:
http://www.nba.com/pistons/chat_mailbox/mailbag_090824.html

Answering a question about the likelihood of the Pistons signing David Lee, Keith lets out this little beauty:

“I fully expect the Pistons to stand at 14. There is no glaring hole on the roster and almost certainly no player out there they see as worth the flexibility they’d have by keeping one roster spot open.”

Huh. That’s interesting. Apparently we don’t have a single “glaring hole on the roster…” Not one. The roster is “glaring” hole-less. How about a “not-glaring hole,” do we have any of those? And if you’re wondering what constitutes a “glaring hole” to Keith, don’t worry he never actually offers an explanation or justification for his claim.

Scarily questionable defensive rebounding, a number of poor pick and roll defenders, lack of a shot blocking threat in our probable starting line-up, a roster construction that virtually necessitates using smallball line-ups; those all seem like they could reflect possible “glaring holes” on the roster, but maybe in Langlois world those are just regular old holes.

Gabe, it could be one of those anti-matter black holes. I can only assume those are tough to see.

And on the other side of that black hole is a parallel universe wherein the Pistons have only front court players and people are sure how to pronounce “Langlois.”

Matt W: I’ve been wearing the face mask since Colangelo came to TO! What’s up with the magicks that guy brings where ever he goes? People love him! Maybe it’s the big shirt collars? It seems like he’s making decent moves on paper, but the Raptors consistently underachieve. If they can actually put it together this year I might take a second look at the Colangelo man-crush, though…..

On no…not another “someone took Langlois seriously” alert!

Your angst is understandable considering your team’s recent (and soon to be continued) plummet out of the spotlight.

Once again with the potshots. I’m okay with them if they’re coming from a fan of a franchise that has had some success. Like, any success. At all. In their entire existence. But I guess when you’re a Raptors fan though you’ve got to get while the getting’s good— i.e. before every season when the media hopes their collective happy thoughts will propel you to an even slightly successful season, which of course never happens.

No offense meant of course – until recently we Raps fans were the experts in watching our team become terrible year after year.

What has changed recently to afford you the luxury of not expecting to suck (as you certainly will)? As I’ve already pointed out, you have a $50million dollar 30+ year old Euro SF whose one skill is clutch shooting and is widely regarded as the worst defensive player in the NBA (“Peja 2.0” anyone?— ask New Orleans how it’s working out for them). You also have a $50million dollar Euro “C” who averages 5 rebounds and has no post game— you might as well have picked up ‘Sheed for less $$$ (at least he plays D). Calderon has yet to do anything of real worth in the NBA, and once the upcoming (disastrous) season plays out, Bosh is most definitely leaving you. Then what will you do? You weren’t any good anyway, and now you’re completely hamstrung with two unbelievably bad contracts and a handful of OK roleplayers. Jarrett Jack might be your best player, Amir Johnson couldn’t even find playing time on our “plummeting” squad last year, and Reggie Evans grabs dudes’ balls.

Explain to me how things are “looking up” in Raptorville?

I’ve read just about every review of the Pistons off-season and all of the critical ones point to BG and CV’s poor defense. That’s fine.

But, I never hear that criticism of other team’s signings (Toronto, Orlando and Cleveland, for example). And I don’t hear defense addressed when these basketball writers talk about the players the Pistons should have gone after (Boozer, Amare, Bosh and so on aren’t exactly Tim Duncan or Kevin Garnett).

I’m not complaining because I’m a fan of good defense. Just thought it was interesting that the Pistons are graded on different terms by national writers.

I wouldn’t call Turkoglu the worst defensive player in the NBA. I think he’s average. He’s got length and size.

Bargnani on the other hand… Well…

Bargnani is a poor man’s Austin Daye.

Raptors were pretty badass in Jurassic Park…so they have that going for them…

That’s about it though…

Remember in Jurassic Park 3 when they learned how to communicate with eachother? That movie was so gay Jeff Goldblum would’ve made it less gay.

Raptors were pretty badass in Jurassic Park…

Yes, but Pistons have been powering internal combustion engines, steam engines, and trumpets for centuries.

Cars, trains, ships, etc. > a bad dinosaur movie

I like the Pistons vs. Raps talk. I wasn’t here for the influx of AI fanboys, so its kind of cool to see some new names.

+ a few to Boney at noon

DanH,

Believe me when I say, sharer of my real life name, I have no angst towards the Detroit Pistons’ fall from grace that has only been 1 season (yet we still made the playoffs). The fall from grace that saw us go from the yearly #1 seed to the #8 seed with a shitty coach and even worse defense and lackadasical play from superstars.

There is no angst, nor is there jealousy (or is it jealoucy because you crazy canadians refuse to spell things with an “S”?).

The entire starting 5 of the Toronto Raptors is pathetic on the defensive end of the court, just like the Phoenix Suns were when Colangelo was the “mastermind”. The only person of note who is a solid defender is Reggie Evans. Jason Maxiell has made Evans his bitch before (don’t know if you know, but they’ve played each other in the playoffs while you crazy canadians are ice fishing since the Gnaptors haven’t been relevant in a while).

Aside from all of my statements above… I’m embarrassed to share my real life name with someone so blind to a team that has the color purple in their logo. Enjoy your euro-trash basketball this season Phoenix Suns-Lite basketball.

@QD…i think the reason why everyone is hating on the Pistons’ signings is because we’ve been such a dominate defensive team for quite a while. It’s a huge transition going from defense to offense. Everyone says BG and CV won’t fit the Pistons’ defensive system well. The system is going to change, now, though.

Since when is Turkoglu widely considered to be the worst defender in the league? I know Bill Simmons thinks that, but I’ve never read/heard anyone else write/say that.

Anyways, that guy totally deserved to be ripped on for his douchey comment, but I think we might be going a little overboard in our criticism of the Raptor’s franchise. Calderon hasn’t done anything of worth? Turkoglu is Peja 2.0? These are some examples of hyperbole.

That said, I think we’d all be pretty pissed if our offseason consisted of signing Bargnani and Turkoglu and trading Delfino for Amir. I fully expect the Pistons to be significantly better than the Raptors next year. So we might want to hold off on that executive of the year award.

You can’t stop the Toronto Raptors optimism train. You just can’t.

Remember. These are the same people who are Maple Leafs fans (shouldn’t that be Maple Leaves?).

The Raptors, much like the Pistons, are a team built primarily on potential. Also, both teams have underachieved this decade.

However, the Pistons have underachieved at the championship level; as in close-but-no-cigar. The Raptors have underachieved at the playoff level; as in why the diddly can’t we make the playoffs?(I have it on good authority that Canadians frequently use the word “diddly”)

You have to feel sorry for Raptor fans, however. At least Pistons fans have 3 ’ships in the last 20 years. We know what a winning team looks like. Raptors fans have no clue. They think every year is the year. Hence the blind optimism.

@Boney
There is no angst, nor is there jealousy (or is it jealoucy because you crazy canadians refuse to spell things with an "S"?).

I lol’d.

Anyways, that guy totally deserved to be ripped on for his douchey comment, but I think we might be going a little overboard in our criticism of the Raptor’s franchise. Calderon hasn’t done anything of worth? Turkoglu is Peja 2.0? These are some examples of hyperbole.

True. It should be “Calderon hasn’t done anything of worth in the NBA.” And calling Turkoglu Peja 2.0 is an insult to Peja.

QD:

I agree that most NBA writers have been grading the Pistons on a not-so flattering curve. But I think Kelly Dwyer (who rightly crapped on all the money teams were throwing at Hedo, for the record), had IMO the most logical reasoning in his critique of Jod’s moves:
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/This-is-Detroit-s-haul-?urn=nba,174064

To sum it up: KD doesn’t dislike signing Gordon or CV in isolation, but he thought Jod wasted an opportunity to potentially do more if he’d tried to use his cap space more creatively (i.e. trades). KD’s point is, we had $20mil in cap space to work with and instead of waiting to see how things shook out over the summer we just skipped straight toward paying Gordon and CV most of that money (probably more than anyone would have offered either of them). So, we could have explored our options, and if nothing better came around, we still (more than likely) could have signed Gordon+CV.

I think CV would have signed with Cleveland (they would have let Varejao).

Cleveland was the logical alternative for him, but they could only offer the mid-level. If CV and his agent tried to wait and see if someone would offer more than that, he would probably still have been available further into the summer.

Regarding the discussion of Calderon, I decided to get some facts, courtesy of 82games.com

Calderon averaged a PER of 20.9; the opposing team’s PG averaged 16.3.

Per 48 minutes, the Raptors with Calderon would score 109.6 pts and give up 112.1. Without Calderon, the Toronto scoring dropped to 105.2 while surrendering 108.2 points. The Raptors were 0.5 ppg, per 48, better with Calderon than without.

@Boney: In Canada, we refer to you as Boné.

Kelly Dryer makes a good argument right up to the point where he starts talking about wasting our chances of signing Wade,Lebron or Bosh .There is no way in hell Lebron or Wade would ever sign with Detroit ,you might be able to trade for Bosh but I personally don’t want his overated , soft defense playing ass in a pistons jersey especially at the max money he’d want to stay,who knows how Gordon and CV. are gonna work out ,but don’t base your argument ,or at least part of your argument , on something that was never gonna happen . Personally I’ll be very happy when the supposedly 2010 dream free agency is over , I’m sick of hearing about it and fairly sure not one of them are gonna leave their team at least not willingly.

@Boney:
On the Cosby Show, we refer to you as Bonet.

1. I’m with Defor. We couldn’t have gotten LeBron or Wade, and I’d rather get BG and CV for the same cost as Chris Bosh.

2. @ Boney: And on Martin, we refer to you as Boneneh.

@PS:
If he was a painter, he’d be Monet.

Or Manet.

In a French bathroom, he’d be… Bidet?

Brewed by Trappist monks, he’d be Chimay.

Might Johnson’s casting out from the Pistons have been part of the Kuester signing? Who was that coach that said Amir would play in the league “over his dead body” or suchlike?

PS Wins.

If he were a male model, he’d sashay.

If he were to get down in his black chevrolet, he’d be…?

My top five PG’s:

Billups, C. Paul, D. Williams, T. Parker and Rondo

In my opinion Nash and Kidd is past their prime, unless they prove me wrong in 2010.

If he were to get down in his black chevrolet, he’d be…

Hell yes, Mike Payne! Tony! Toni! Toné! and DJ Quik. (“Let’s Get Down,” House of Music, 1996.)

Video, featuring Antonio Fargas, here.

Gotdang classic.

@PS:
No fuckin’ doubt. Awesome track. As is Saadiq’s collab with The Roots on Illadelph Halflife, “What They Do”. :)

(and if Boney were a rapper from my last home city, he’d be that Boney Homey from Stoney. props to those who catch that lyric.)

“What They Do” is dope, especially the late Spanky Alford’s guitar playing.

And that bony homie is none other than Lonnie Lynn AKA Common Sense, formerly of Stony Island Ave.

South Siiiide!

PS Wins, again. I owe you like 60 beers.

I owe you like 60 beers.

Cool. Want to open a tab?

Uh, no homo.

Noah: nice memory, I forgot about that.

I just dug up the quote — "As long as I am alive, Amir Johnson will never be in an NBA rotation."

But that was from an assistant on Flip Saunders’ staff; Kuester served one year in Detroit under Larry Brown. My unscientific, uninformed, and probably wrong guess when I first read that quote a year ago was that it was Kevin Wilson who made the snide comment.

Has Kevin Wilson died yet?

Garrett: in Canada, I thought it would be Bone, eh?

Gabe: I respect Dwyer, but usually when you criticize a move, the idea is to come up with a better solution. Dwyer offered none in his article. Considering that JD is probably a better judge of talent than KD, this may well have been the best he can do. Unlike a lot of scribes, Dumars factors stuff in like chemistry (which he learned last year with the AI deal). In retrospect, the CV signing is probably good value, and the BG signing, while maybe overpaying a bit, it will take some time to figure that one out.

Hi, my name is optimism and I would like to say,
W.T.F.!!!!

The season ain’t even started and people are hating on the Pistons, calling them crap, burying them in crap and generally not drinking nearly enough happy sauce (or beer as I like to refer to it). Well, just like Dido, I won’t put up the white flag and have sand in my shoe or something. Nope, I have faith that this team will surprise many. Charlie V can get his points AND learn to defend, same with Simple Ben.

Also, in Australia we would pronounce Boney as ‘Erect Penis’.

If Boney were black German and heavily involved in the 70’s disco scene he would be called Boney M.

This article makes me feel a little bit better about our defense, primarily the fourth paragraph: http://tinyurl.com/ns5rl3

After we won in ’04 the league outlawed hand checking which was integral in playing one-on-one defense. Joe D used to do it, Chauncey was big on it, and Rip and Tay depended on it. Making that illegal really hurt our defense because of how physical we played back then. None of our guys (other than Lindsey) moved their feet particularly well, but that hand-check let them slow the offensive player down.

Paragraph four in the above link points out how soft the league has become, and I totally agree that the way you have to play defense in today’s NBA is through schemes. In order to be able to effectively run your schemes, you need athletes which between Wilcox, Gordon, Daye, Summers, etc I feel we now have. It makes me wish we did still have Amir because I think in this new system we’re about to see he would really flourish.

This is probably also why we brought back Ben Wallace. He was the ultimate help side defender. I think the hope here with Ben Wallace is that he can teach these young guys to be better help side defenders which is going to be very important with this new “scheme” type defense we are most likely going to play.

I’m surprised to see some folks here know about Illadelph Halflife. It’s one of my top 5 albums. “No Alibi” is the dopest track eVAR

@Alex

Cosign. And I know it might be lip service, but I really like Benny G coming out and saying, “We’ll be good on offense, but defense will be our staple.” At least he’s talking the talk so far. I can’t wait for the season to start.

Also, in Australia we would pronounce Boney as ‘Erect Penis’.</i.

So would that actually make Boney Patte

===========

Don’t be too harsh on Raptors fans; they’re all doing exactly what we were doing last summer — hoping that in that consistent minutes, Amir’s flashes could become more than just flashes. And frankly, the kid is still what, 22 years old? He could still become a rotation player; it’s not impossible.

html fail.

“The way you have to play defense in today’s NBA is through schemes.”

This has been repeated a lot recently as a reason to be optimistic about our chances defensively, but is it actually true? Are “schemes” now roughly equal in importance to personnel?

Here’s last years top 6 defensive teams, using pts allowed per/100 poss:

1. Orlando
2. Boston
3. Cleveland
4. Houston
5. San Antonio
6. Los Angeles

Five out of these six teams reached at least the second round, so obviously defense is still important for playoff success. But were they good defensively because of their schemes? IMO, good defensive game plans definitely helped, as each of these teams had fairly unique and effective strategies. But, the schemes worked because these teams fulfill the first basic requirements of elite team defense: interior defenders with size/height who are also excellent defensive rebounders.

Without interior players that have a combination of size and rebounding ability, none of those teams would be top-6 defensively. Mobility and versatility are more important now than when hand-checking was still allowed- the Magic and Lakers are particularly good at using their bigs mobility as a defensive weapon, but the Cav’s and Rockets both prove you can have a giant, immobile center, and still be a top defensive team. The important thing is to have size and defensive rebounding.

That’s why I remain pretty pessimistic; we’ve put together what (IMO) are the easiest pieces to assemble (lots of backcourt scorers, back-up SF’s), and we’ve spent a lot of money to do it, but we’re missing the more difficult to acquire (and in regard to defense, most important) piece; elite rebounding PF/C’s who defend the paint.

@ Gabe:

+infinity.

MO, good defensive game plans definitely helped, as each of these teams had fairly unique and effective strategies. But, the schemes worked because these teams fulfill the first basic requirements of elite team defense: interior defenders with size/height who are also excellent defensive rebounders.

Is it merely coincidence that Orlando and LA were both top 6 defensive teams? Or, could it be that their defense is what propelled them to the Finals?

Houston and Cleveland have to be the model for “scheme” defense. Houston has no defensive bigs whatsoever— Yao is terrible— and Cleveland’s best defensive big was a guy that just thought about retiring before signing for the vet min. If you can get a squad that starts Mo Williams and Delonte West into the top 3 defensively (and they were #1 for most of the season), there’s got to be some credence to the “defense is schemes.” And while Ron-Ron and Battier are considered great individual defenders, again it’s always been about a defensive culture in Houston. Even when McGrady was playing, he bought into the system and they were consistently a top-5 defense. Look at the Lakers— nobody other than Kobe wants to play defense on that squad. You know it. But Phil puts them in the right spots, lets them play to their strengths, and it works out. And it’s good to remember that part of having a great defense is a great offense, Lakers being the case-in-point. If the Suns could’ve ever figured out how to hold their opponents to even around 105pts a game, I think they would’ve won at least one ‘ship (and if they hadn’t been jobbed by Stern in ‘07 against the Spurs, I’m convinced they would’ve won it all).

Laughton,

That’s why america will always be better than australia, because our shtick is much better than yours is.

Regards,
President Obama

Don’t get me wrong. Skilled defensive players are important. I’d take a Ron Artest, or Bruce Bowen (in his prime) any day. I’m just saying I feel like it’s less important today than in the past, and that the group Joe put together is fully capable of doing enough to get the job done most nights. I still agree they need some more pieces though.

I’m definitely not expecting a ’Ship this season, but I think this team is moving down the right path.

Our Big’s are a question mark. The one I’m most concerned about is C-Vil, but I think Chris Wilcox is going to show us something this season. He is WAY to athletic to just be a rotating door. I think he has the potential to be like Ben W was in his prime (but not Hall of Famer-ish). I think he’ll pick up a lot of weak side blocks/rebounds.

That is 100% speculation though, it’s all about effort. True, he hasn’t shown the effort yet in his career, but I just feel different about his stop here. Maybe it’s just that I see the glass as half full…

Joel:

http://www.nba.com/statistics/sortable_team_statistics/sortable2.html

I agree that defensive schemes deserve some credit, but I think far more credit has to go to personnel. Using your example of Houston and Cleveland as “scheme” teams- I’d argue the fact that LA and Houston were 3rd and 4th in rebound differential is more important than their defensive scheme- without that rebounding ability, their defensive schemes could be compromised by the opposition grabbing offensive rebounds.

From the numbers, I’d say the most “scheme” oriented of those top-6 defensive teams are San Antonio and Orlando, as neither overly relies on blocks or steals and neither are too far above average in team rebounding.

Subjectively, I’d say that fits- San Antonio and Orlando both used similarly unique defensive schemes that tried to run shooters off the 3 point line, and use the threat of Duncan/Howard to discourage teams from driving all the way to the rim, with the end goal of forcing teams to shoot mostly mid-range shots. Basically you can get away with not having great team rebounding if you have a Howard or Duncan, i.e. one of the 3-4 best interior defenders in the NBA.

So there are a couple ways to skin the cat, but whatever the scheme, a basic requirement of good defense is/are elite rebounding PF/C’s who defend the paint.

Re: Schemes vs. personnel

It’s football season, so I’ll use a football analogy. Sometimes a scheme will put up good numbers, like the Tampa 2, but there are always ways to exploit it and they’re not really good defensive teams with really good defensive players – they’ve just got a gimmick working for them. The really elite defensive teams like Baltimore, Tennessee, and the pre-Lovie Bears are the ones who get the right personnel: some big bad fatass defensive tackles, a dominant inside linebacker, shutdown corners, and playmaking safeties. They build their franchise out of defensive players and commit to winning on that side of the ball.

I’ll take the latter.

@Shinons

Not to nitpick, but neither Baltimore nor Tennessee have really done much of worth the better part of this decade, despite having a glut of defensive studs. I’d throw Jacksonville and Carolina in there too— they all have a ton of individual defensive talent, yet continually fall short. On the opposite side you have teams like the Patriots and Steelers who seem to be dominant defensively no matter what the names are on the back of the jersey— it’s the system. The teams that have won Super Bowls have all also had efficient offenses to go with anywhere from above-average (’06 Colts) to elite defenses (any Patriots/Steelers squad). But the common factor is that you can get away with a less-then-elite defense, or even a specialized defense (such as the ’06 Colts D which was built to play from ahead) as long as you can efficiently score.

This Pistons team, at least on paper, should be able to score with anybody in the league. Our success will obviously be hinged on running a successful defensive scheme built for our players. Looking at our squad, I’d like to see a lot of press, at least full-court on the ball-handlers, and I bet we’re going to be gambling a lot from the wing positions to try to cause turnovers and get out in transition. Clearly half-court defense isn’t going to be our strongest suit— just a fact given our front-court. But if we can cause a lot of turnovers, like the Heat last year, we have the athletes and shooters to do a ton of damage in transition. Until we make the inevitable move to get the big man Joe wants in the middle, I see us a lot like the Nets and Wizards teams from a few years back— maybe win around 50 games, mid-seed, second-round loss. But if we get that defensive big, we’ve got all the other pieces to make some noise.

@ Alex

but I think Chris Wilcox is going to show us something this season. He is WAY to athletic to just be a rotating door. I think he has the potential to be like Ben W was in his prime (but not Hall of Famer-ish). I think he’ll pick up a lot of weak side blocks/rebounds.

Based on what? He’s an okay rebounder, so I’ll give you that. But shot blocking? He’s never demonstrated an ability to block a lot of shots consistently, in spite of his freakish athleticism.

=======

The football analogy just doesn’t work. In football, you have two (well three, really) different teams that have entirely different functions. In basketball, you get one team, with five guys playing both sides of the ball — so you need players that have both skill sets to be successful.

Baltimore hasn’t won anything significant because they can’t field an offense, not because of their defense. But in basketball, it’s different. Field an excellent defensive and rebounding team, and you will win more ball games than you lose, even with mediocre talent on offense.

Um, Baltimore has won a Super Bowl with Trent Dilfer as their QB. They definitely were no where near average offensively and their defense is still good (not THAT good, but good). And Tennessee was undefeated most of the season last year for the simple fact that they could run the ball and had a good defense. The Patriots defense is the defense that has gone soft because Kraft refuses to pay his players on defense. They switched to an offensive-oriented team when they traded for Moss and signed Welker a couple years back. Now their defense relies solely on schemes.

Joel: I agree with your last post. Well said.

Folks forget the past too soon. When JoeD was building the last team, no one aside from Ben was a known defensive threat or even played any type of remarkable defense. I tend to believe it’s the scheme that caters to the player’s ability and it’s the coach’s job to mold the system to work with the talent he has to cover up any defensive shortcomings.

Someone mentioned the Lakers earlier. When has Gasol, Odom, or Bynum ever been considered good defenders before they joined the Lakers…well, Bynum was drafted, so doesn’t really count, but still not a defensive threat.

@ gulk: It’s like that in football too. In basketball you would like to have guys that play both sides of the ball, ala Kobe and Wade, but you have to settle for specialty guys like Gordon (offense) and Wallace (defense) because the guys that play on both ends of the floor are few and far between. The way I see it is there are only a handful of players in the NBA that are considered defensive stoppers and a handful that are poor defenders. Everyone else is in the middle being told what to do by the coach so that they are in the right place at the right time – hence the reason a defensive scheme is so important. I think to play defense in the NBA you just have to have athletic ability and the desire to want to do it. While the new guys we brought in have generally been regarded as bad defenders, we should at least give them a chance to show us they WANT to win.

I certainly think that it is harder to play defense because of the hand-checking restrictions. And every non-Warriors team has some sense of a defensive scheme. The best defenses pair quality defensive coaching with quality defensive players, but good defenders are hard to find.

Certainly different teams have different schemes. Gabe, I think you’re spot-on with the analysis of San Antonio and Orlando. Houston may do some similar things; they certainly understand that the lowest percentage shot is the mid-range jumper. I know that the Lakers and the Celtics tend to commit weakside help sooner than other teams.

Joel, I think you give too little credit to the players. For Cleveland, Delonte West is a pretty good defender. LeBron is generally good and occasionally great. Varejao is a good defender too. Obviously Houston last year had Battier and Artest, but they also had Chuck Hayes, who is one of the best post defenders in the league. Orlando has the deserving DPOY, a decent wing defender in Courtney Lee, and a lot of length. L.A. has a lot of length as well. Kobe isn’t normally a good defender, but Lamar Odom is a fantastic help defender.

A lot of the NFL teams mentioned above have been successful because they’ve chosen defensive schemes that can be effective with undervalued players (or player types). You know, the Moneyball approach. It’s not that Bob Kraft or the Rooneys are stingy, as KRONIK suggests.

The Patriots, for instance, use relatively cheap LBs and DBs—frequently hybrid types or versatile players who are responsible for multiple roles (including special teams). This frees up money to pay an All-Pro caliber starting DL.

The Steelers have cornered the market on players who fit their 3-4 defense—remember, they were the only team using that scheme for about ten years. And the Tampa 2 is well-known for being a cheap defense to staff, placing as it does emphasis on speed rather than size. This has allowed the Colts to spend a huge proportion of their total player salaries on offensive skill players.

Folks forget the past too soon. When JoeD was building the last team, no one aside from Ben was a known defensive threat or even played any type of remarkable defense.

But we did have Big Ben. We have nothing that resembles him right now (not there were any opportunities to get that, though).

@ Kronik:

While the new guys we brought in have generally been regarded as bad defenders, we should at least give them a chance to show us they WANT to win.

I don’t disagree. I’ve been down on the roster moves because I think that players generally tend to stay the same. Big improvements don’t tend to happen after a player’s first few seasons in the league. It can happen; it’s just not probable.

I want our guys to win. I want BG to become a more consistent two-point shooter and to become a committed defender. I want to see CV become a solid low-post defender and a better-than-average rebounder. But, up to this point in their careers, they have been below-average with respect to shooting efficiency, generally regarded as poor defenders, and below-average rebounders for their position (especially when CV is at C). I’m skeptical because players tend to remain mostly the same from year to year, but I’m hoping we see two exceptions to the general rule.

the Lions couldn’t stop the Stones on any given sunday. even when they are playing small ball!

Sorry for the extended dose of NFL conventional wisdom.

Philadelphia should wear legendary roots crew alternate jerseys for ’09/10.

@gulker

If CV ever plays at center, then I don’t think it’s his abilities we need to be worrying about but our coach’s. Luckily, according to 82games.com CV played exactly 0% (rounded down) of his team’s available minutes at center last year, so I don’t think we need to worry about his performance at a position he never has nor ever will play. And his 9 boards per/36 the last two seasons are both higher than anything Rasheed, who he was signed to replace, has ever put up in his career. In fact, his pts/36 and rebounds/36 last year were both higher than anything Rasheed has ever put up. Basically, if we’re going to pick on something, pick on his one-on-one D, not his rebounding, which is average at worst for the PF position.

“Big improvements don’t tend to happen after a player’s first few seasons in the league. It can happen; it’s just not probable.”

Tell that to the ‘04 squad. although Larry Brown bleeds the “right way” of playing. I believe that example shows that systems are proof positive. Hell! even Rick Carlisle did well with that crew of castaways. If Qster is half as good as MCIAFI, and we know he is. then we shouldn’t meet or exceed expectations. Detroit fans that is.

brgulker; totally right about us not having a big ben of old now. My point was that this isn’t the first time that we had defensive unknowns come in and then turn out to be better than average defenders because of scheme, coaching, and effort. I’m hoping the same thing happens again. In fact, I’m sure it will especially with bringing Big Ben back into the fold to mentor. I think we’ll be ok as a team but again, I’m the homer-type and proud of it. :D

Just another little stat to debunk the “CV sucks at rebounding” myth:

According to Basketball Reference (dot com), Charlie was actually the 17th best defensive rebounder in all of basketball last season percentage-wise— as in, what percentage of available defensive rebounds the player got ahold of— with a none-too-shabby 21.6% rating. Not only is a decent rebounder, but he’s going to put up the best #’s of his career if only because of the playing time and confidence being a bonafide starter is going to get him.

From SLAM, an article on…………..Jonas Jerebko?

http://www.slamonline.com/online/nba/2009/08/detroits-mr-do-it-all/

Just another little stat to debunk the "CV sucks at rebounding" myth:

I don’t know who’s making that argument, certainly not me. I don’t know how much stock I put in the above statistic just yet, because I’m not totally sure of how it’s calculated and if it’s really an accurate measure or not.

My point has only been that we don’t seem to have any exceptional rebounders. CV is about average. Wilcox is about average. Maxiel is great on offensive boards but bad on defensive boards. Big Ben is probably our best rebounder, and he’s probably looking at 15-20 minutes per game.

Tell that to the ‘04 squad.

Other than Billups (and I’m working from memory, which could be wrong), I’m not sure any of our individual players made enormous leaps with respect to individual statistics, did they?

My point was that this isn’t the first time that we had defensive unknowns come in and then turn out to be better than average defenders because of scheme, coaching, and effort.

Yes, that’s true, and I think you have a fair point. I think becoming an above-average defender is something just about any intelligent, athletic NBA player can do.

My point was to say that we had the best defender in the game in Ben Wallace, so we only needed the rest of those guys to make marginal improvements. As our roster stands, it seems like we’re depending on guys making significant improvements on defense, and while that isn’t outside the realm of the possible, I’m not sure it’s necessarily likely.

But I hope it happens!

Joel:

And CV’s partly replacing the rebounding of Sheed/Dice, who statistically were the two best defensive rebounders on the team.

Last season, for all his faults, Sheed’s defensive rebounding % was still 24.6, and Dice’s was an ass kicking 27.2%

Wilcox has never been above 22.5%, and CV has never been above 21.6%

So CV/Wilcox is a downgrade when it comes to defensive rebounding from Dice/Sheed, there’s pretty much no arguing with that. Maybe Big Ben can chip in so it won’t be a completely fatal weakness, but I’m pretty confident it’s going to be a serious problem for us. Which doesn’t take into account that Sheed/Dice are both good TEAM defenders, something CV/Wilcox have yet to be accused of.

So there’s an almost definite weakness with our lessened defensive rebounding, and a potential weakness from losing two good team defenders and replacing them with two lesser team defenders.

Garrett, nice find on the article. JJ sounds like a Piston. I hope he pans out and becomes the defensive specialist we need.

brgulker:
I see your point and I hope it happens too! It’s easier to become a better defender with the best in the game next to you. It is a bit different this time around, but I’m sure Big Ben can still bang for a good 10-15 minutes a game. His experience is probably more valuable at this point and is what will make the difference. I’m sure JoeD explained to CV and BG that Detroit basketball involves an honest effort on D.

All this talk makes me even more excited for the season to start. I want to see what the team does to address these perceived weaknesses and how well we pan out. IMO, on paper, we look to be a good C away from contention, but probably 10 other teams can say the same thing, LOL!

@ Garrett: Of all of our picks this year, I’m probably the most intrigued by Jerebko.

He seems to be a blue-collar type of player, and he looked to be tougher than the scouts gave him credit for, especially on the boards.

I’m most excited about Daye, because I think he has the highest ceiling, but Jerebko is intriguing, because he seems to possess certain qualities and skills that mesh nicely with what has been Piston culture.

I’m with brgulker on Daye. I can’t even imagine what his ceiling could be. He can literally do everything offensively and he’s just about 7’. The only player with a similar skillset I can think of is Dirk Nowitzki, and I’m okay with that.

I’m not on the Daye train yet. The dude can definitely play and has the potential to be special, but he put up 10 points as a freshman, 12 as a soph. I’ll wait till he shows some real production before I get my Durant-esque hopes up.

I think defense starts first with a “will.” Playing 3 or 4 games in 5 or 6 nites and traveling isn’t going to allow for alot of specific schemes against teams, plus the added fact of rule changes. But knowing your “role” in a defensive scheme or setting can’t be overlooked.

You gotta believe that guys like KG, TD, Kobe (speaking for AB & PAu because they’re quiet) get in guys faces and yell about defense (or that TD glare). Not to mention, what someone said above, that interior height matters ALOT. How many blocks does Yao get at 7’6"? That’s not as important as altered shots or “oh shit, what do I do now” PG in the paint thought. I also think with Orl that teams tried to match up with Orl due to Lewis & Turk pulling their guy away from the bucket, meaning faster and typically shorter guys than a 6’10" PF posting up Lewis plays a role because these same “shorter/quicker” guys don’t require as much from Howard.

Defense is first and foremost about effort. Look at the D guys, Battier, Artest, Raja Bell, and the like. They bring it on every single possesion which really frustrates guys because the rest of the season they can “play” their game against other defenders. If you consistently bring it physically like Artest, that’s the way it’ll be called. If you’re a finese player trying to play physical D, refs will call it because you haven’t got that rep.

Even teams like the Warriors or the Suns who have to lock down for a possession or two at the end of the game (at least I think) can’t play that without getting called and look really dis-jointed doing it. It just doesn’t fit them. You see Nash try to body up somebody and he just looks outta place. Put (previously) Raja Bell on the same guy and same play, I think Bell gets a pass.

Very simply, we’ve all played YMCA ball against the guy who plays D like there’s no tomorrow and it pisses us off. Not because he’s neccessarily fouling on every play, but because we’re not used to it under those circumstances. Come out and play balls out D from the tip, you’ll disrupt things, won’t get called later and you’ve set a tone.

And having a guy behind you to cover your ass with a block once in awhile doesn’t hurt either.

@ shinions: I think if you look at Day, there were some other guys on that team. He didn’t have to come in and put up 20/nite. Plus being a Fr, that would be tough to do given how that team is coached as a “team” concept and not otherwise. Even putting up the numbers he did they were pretty successful which I think speaks for the guys around him, the coach and the system.

I’m not sure I’m on the Daye train … I’m just excited about the possibilities. His physical tool set, his skill set on the floor, and his overall demeanor are more exciting to me than any of the rookies we’ve picked since Maxiel, at least to me.

And with Jerebko, it’s being intrigued by his game, his tool set, and how he seems to fit the culture.

It’s way too early to know what they can and cannot contribute, though. But, it’s not as if we’ve had a roster that rookies could crack over the past six seasons — so that adds an element of excitement we haven’t had for some time.

Here’s my favorite part of the day! Reading a Keith Langlois article and pointing out the demonstrably false things that he states as facts:
http://www.nba.com/pistons/news/truebluepistons_090825.html

“Gordon became the Pistons’ top 3-point threat, [snip] the second he signed his contract… But he’s also terrific at breaking down defenses and getting into the lane.”

Here’s some fun Gordon numbers:
07/08: http://www.82games.com/0708/07CHI3A.HTM
08/09: http://www.82games.com/0809/08CHI5.HTM#pstats

Gordon is so awesome at breaking teams down off the dribble and getting into the lane that 80% (last year) and 85% (year before) of his overall shot attempts were jumpers. Not only that, but he’s that incredibly rare player who actually shoots a higher percentage on jump shots than close shots (!). Also, Gordon had the same 85%/15% jump shot to close shot ratio in ‘06/’07, and shot those jumpers at a higher eFG% than the close shots. And in ‘05/’06 he was at 83% jump shots to 17% close, and his % on jumpers was higher.

So while Gordon’s pretty much the definition of an elite jump shooter, there’s essentially no basis in reality to claim he’s “terrific at breaking down defenses and getting into the lane.”

And the end of the day we will see what team has the better record when the season is over…We can all go back and forth on comments but the truth is the raps and the pistons could BOTH flop this year…Don’t forget about a team like the wizards who made moves and got Gilbert back…Neither team is a lock for the playoffs this year (Raptors,Pistons) So I don’t give a damn what the numbers say because “on paper” is just that!

@Gabe

If you watched any of those games where Gordon single-handedly hosed us last season or the series with the Celtics, he’s pretty capable at getting into the lane and he finishes well when he’s there. But the numbers don’t lie— he definitely prefers to shoot jumpers. I’m just saying that when he does go to the lane he has a sick teardrop, he actually has decent hops and is good for the occasional impressive dunk, and he’s gotten to the line around 5 times a game for his career, which is better than anyone on our squad last season other than AI, who is dead to me.

Gabe, I read the Langlois post and came on here to see if you went ballistic. You disappoint me. No mention of the Bynum/Gordon backcourt?

@Garrett – thanks for the slam article on jerebko, I noticed he wears #33! Been awhile.

Haven’t been here in a while

My early picks for rookie of the year are

1. Griffin
2. Jennings
3. DeRozan

Now on to some Bad Boys stuff

Isiah Gets North Carolina In NCAA Coaching Debut

Aug 25, 2009 6:10 PM EST

Isiah Thomas will make his collegiate coaching debut at North Carolina on November 9th.

Thomas was named head coach of FIU last spring.

Thomas is under a five-year contract.

http://basketball.realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/61294/20090825/isiah_gets_north_carolina_in_ncaa_coaching_debut/

I would think that the game will be nationally televised

P.S. Pick for Pistons rookie of the year is Daye.

For those who really need an Johnson fix of new info

It All Comes Together At Camp
August 25, 9:01 a.m.

It’ll be here before you know it … 35 days until camp starts… 35 days until the new-look Raptors head to camp… 35 days until Jay Triano holds his first training camp… It’s just not that long until you’ll get to see the nine new Raps in uniforms, including Amir Johnson… Here’s more on Amir… After 4 years in the Motor City and a brief stop off in Milwaukee this summer, Johnson is now a Raptor… His sister, Indi, played hoops for Southern University which is located in Baton Rouge, Louisiana… The Jags have produced a couple of familiar NBA names… Bobby Phills who tragically died in a car accident when he was leaving shootaround with the Hornets on January 12, 2000… Southern also had a fiesty point guard who made an impact with San Antonio and later as a head coach for the Mavs, Avery Johnson… Amir’s cousin, Kevin Burnett, is a linebacker for the San Diego Chargers after starting his career with the Dallas Cowboys… Amir has nearly a 7-foot wingspan… He started his high school career at Los Angeles Pacific Hills High School, then transferred to Verbum Dei High School in LA for his sophmore season… Amir sat out his junior basketball season at Westchester High School, but his Senior year was big time… Averaging 21 points, 15 rebounds and 8 blocks… He was named Mr. Basketball in California… he was also named a McDonald’s All-American and the Los Angeles Player of the Year… From there he decided to enter the NBA draft where he was drafted 56th overall in the 2005 draft by Detroit… Amir just turned 22 on May 1… He’s long and athletic and he’s said his favourite player growing up was Kevin Garnett (let’s not tell Jose!)..

http://www.nba.com/raptors/news/devlin.html

TRADE JOHNSON AGAIN NOW.

QD:

:) I couldn’t muster the energy to even start on that issue, because it’s so obviously silly. I’m not sure why Langlois hasn’t realized the most sensible backcourt pairings are:

Stuckey/Gordon and MFWB/Rip.

Both give us 3 point shooting and driving/playmaking, without sacrificing size.

And it’s not even that hard to accomplish, just sub Rip out for Gordon halfway through the first quarter, then when you bring Rip back into the game sometime in the 2nd quarter, MFWB comes in with him to spell Stuckey. Presto! We have a non-midget backcourt!

Yeah, I can do Stuckey/Rip, Stuckey/Gordon, and MFWB/Rip. I can even do Rip/Gordon to give Gordon a chance to develop different facets to his game. The only combo that makes me nervous is MFWB/Gordon.

I like your rotation idea.

My early picks for rookie of the year are

1. Griffin
2. Jennings
3. DeRozan

Wow. So a Clipper, who is actually your favorite team, and a couple of athletic prospects who’ll never amount to anything. Surprising.

TRADE JENNINGS AND DEROZAN NOW!!!

QD:

I’m with you on being cool seeing Rip/Gordon play together as a backcourt for a few minutes per game, especially like to see those two together when Daye is in the game, for an all out 3 point attack- in certain match-ups we could let Daye be the primary or secondary facilitator, using him as the ball handler with Wilcox or CV in basic pick and roll sets, and have Rip and Gordon in each corner for spacing. That would be a fun offense to watch.

Shinons:
+1

Derozan and Jennings… for rookie of the year? I’d honestly put money on Psycho T before betting on either of those two guys having a chance at it.

Yeah, plus you probably have to give them time together because there will be times when they both have it going and you want them both in the game in crunch time.

@Shinons:
Wow. So a Clipper, who is actually your favorite team, and a couple of athletic prospects who’ll never amount to anything. Surprising.

Nope: a Clipper and two players who went to high school in Southern California. Mike has an habitual hardon for SoCal-bred players (like Amir). Regardless, your comments = +100.

TRADE AMIR TO AN LA HIGH SCHOOL NOW!

I’m not going to get excited about Jerebko until he grows his hair out.

The intriging thing about Jerebko is if he could get to about 245-250 he could play center for us he’s fairly athletic has some inside game and at that weight would be able to hold his own rebounding ,I think he has a chance to be a Bill laimbeer type player with a better inside game.

The intriguing thing about Summers is that he’s 245 right now. That’s more than Wilcox and he’s shorter that Chris. And it looks like it’s mostly muscle too.

@QD: Word. Summers looks like a baaaaaaad man. Between him and Max I fully expect many babies to be eaten and many opposing players intimidated.

Be on the look out today, Pistons fans. ESPN is releasing its “Worst Newcomer” today as part of the “Predictions 09-10” series.

I can’t wait to see what the dolts at ESPN have to say this time…

During my pushing for Summers I mentioned this quite a bit, but it’s been a while so I’ll mention it again now actually we’ve seen him play a little – for his pre-draft measures, he was pretty much equal to Ty Lawson in sprinting and agility drills, he was close to DeJuan Blair in the bench, and less body fat than the twig known as Hasheem Thabeet. He’s got mismatch written all over him.

Chris Mannix of sports illustrated has us 15th in the nba 7th in the east ,I can see us behind Cleveland,Boston,Orlando for sure and maybe the hawks but he’s got Phillie,and Washington ahead of us too.He does put us ahead of Chicago and Miami tho , sorry about no link Computer Illiterate.

@ Defor: Can’t see philly ahead of us with Miller gone and Louis coming on board. They were better last year without brand & up tempo and now he’s playing the slow game

As for wash, he must have alot of faith in Arenas, though I admit Miller will help them out but Arenas has never been known to be one who passes alot.

I think Washington will be infinitely better than most people expect. As much as we all dog Flip, he knows his stuff and I think he’ll do a great job coaching this squad. All of their guys are finally healthy again (for now, anyways) and they can probably put up some high scores on teams.

So it appears hamed Haddadi is unhappy in Memphis…

http://realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/61310/20090826/haddadi_is_unhappy_in_memphis/

He’s a 7’2", 25o pound center that is only 24 years old, maybe we should give Memphis a call and see if we can’t get this guy for cheap? In case you don’t know who he is, here’s a video of one of his game’s in the olympics (highlights of course).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUCEOn9pKOo

I hate the haircut but the guy sure does take up some space in the middle, plays D, and has a decent jumpshot.

Mike Payne,

Careful talking bad about “Mike” like that. He’ll threaten your life like he threatened mine.

Brandon Jennings is overhyped. The reports are going to prove to be true unfortunately for this kid… all about himself, no jumpshot, crazy ballhandling that’ll lead to turnovers and zero defense. The kid may be the fastest guard in the league, but it ain’t gonna matter once people clog the lane and let him take open jumpers all night.

*250

we should give Memphis a call and see if we can’t get this guy for cheap?

who says we have to be cheap? I’d even give up J.Max for him

Careful talking bad about "Mike" like that. He’ll threaten your life like he threatened mine.

Haha, I remember that. “Come to LA and say that!” Lol.

Brandon Jennings is overhyped. The reports are going to prove to be true unfortunately for this kid… all about himself, no jumpshot, crazy ballhandling that’ll lead to turnovers and zero defense. The kid may be the fastest guard in the league, but it ain’t gonna matter once people clog the lane and let him take open jumpers all night.

Can we say Sebastian Telfair 2.0?

Saw where supposedly Memphis made an offer to AI.

Dysfunctional franchise makes offer to dysfunctional player. Guess it makes sense.

RE: hammadi. I wouldn’t trade max, but I’d certainly give up a second rounder or two. And if you assume we make the playoffs in a couple of years, I’d throw a 1st rounder at them, as long as it’s lottery protected in cash shit blows up.

Man am I lame. I don’t even remember seeing this.

http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_id=13680

MFWB replacement?

There a pic of AI on the NBA section of espn. I fcuking hate seeing that SOB in a piston’s jersey. It’s like seeing Bin-Ladin wrapped in a US flag.

Let that POS go sign with the Grizz so he can boost his numbers and do nothing else. I’m sure he’ll get along with Randolph really well. I’m glad to see no contenders want his sorry ass. Nothing will piss me off more than him winning a ring.

Petey’s next blog victims?

http://3shadesofblue.blogspot.com/
http://grizzfan.blogspot.com/
http://davidlovesthegrizzlies.blogspot.com/

Dumars said he’ll bring in a guard and a big man for training camp but that they would have to blow him away to make the team. Apparently this Curtis Jerrels is the guard he brought in.

In the pistons mailbag Langolis makes mention of a first round pick next yr. does anyone know anything about that pick? how did we acquire it? is it lottery protected etc.

scntfc, I think he was talking about the Pistons natural first round pick and just meant that it should be a good draft.

The new, temporary Piston:

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Curtis-Jerrells-1085/

Well, its says it’s partially guaranteed so I would think it would have to be some change there if for no other reason than to have him go to another team and try out. A 100K??

Thanks ESPN

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?page=OffseasonPredictions09-TeamTurmoil

@QD @MBISC
Dumars makes mention of him in an interview on Pistons.com, we will still go into the season with 1 spot still open.

Wow. I mean, yeah, when things go bad for teams that have historically been elite, in any sport, the media usually does a bit of a pounce-job on them. But really? I’ve never seen so much blatantly negative coverage of a team in a single offseason before, in any sport. You’d think Joe Dumars collectively had sex with all the wives and girlfriends of all the sportswriters in America this summer. Maybe he ran over all their dogs. What the fuck.

If we’re even sort of successful— go .500, make the playoffs, etc.— we’ve essentially proven every single writer/analyst of the NBA wrong, which will feel pretty good.

Ha, if you check the Team Turnaround story, an equal number of voters think the Clippers are most likely to turn it around.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?page=OffseasonPredictions09-TeamTurnaround

FYI …

YOU MAKE THE CALL: Pistons vs Raptors

Not all NBA observers believe that Joe D has done a terrible job this summer. :-)

@ Joel: Yeah. I’m hoping for a 5th seed. We should clip that article and save it. But, it’s really more of the same. Since the chip, we’ve always been slighted because we weren’t the most glamourus (sp) or fastest or prettiest. Players coming to Det have and will always play with a chip on their shoulder. Alot of these guys kept writing about how the pistons would come up short (and not winning a chip they were right) year after year because age, new faces (Dyess, Sheed) etc.

Hell, given the economics, argueably their best player threatening to hold out, and really no nuclues to land a top FA next year, the Knicks are more than screwed. Lee should just take a qual offer and become a UnFA next summer. 10 to 1 Walsh offers Bosh max money next year just because he can so he will have something to show for sucking the last two years.

Then there’s the Memphis with Z-bo & AI (probably). That’s got kerosene written all over it. . . with Beale street and we were worried about AI at the indian casinos?

Everybody fell in love with NOH a couple of years ago and theirsecond best player can’t bend over to tie his shoe, their best player had his best two friends from the team traded away and they signed ??? and their owner is saying stop criticizing me about not spending money.

Not to mention a team who’s best player hasn’t signed, their long term side-kick and 2nd best player is in rehab and they have only two PGs and neither one really NBA starting quality for a supposedly 4-6 seed.

The coming train wreck known as Clev. We all saw how immature Bron was after the loss. How many tears is he going to be shedding when the press pool is split between him and Shaq and not all standing around him ? And if he resigns it’s short term so the fans have something worry about for the next 3 years.

Then there’s the team that can only be described as being built solely on one player because the last two years he hasn’t played they’ve sucked.

Not to mention the D-League team in NJ who ain’t got a fucking prayer of landing my grandmother as a FA next year let alone an NBA one.

And let’s not forget the drama on the coast known as the Clippers. Defying the odds and taking a sure HOF #1 draft pick and totally screwing up his head soon to have his own reality show on MTV. . . asking his 2nd round pick brother for a business deal. (though I think Blake does very well, it just went along with the meme)

The we come to Toronto. . . . too much said already.

And finally the Pacers who are best known for having their best player’s shot blocked in the CF and starting a riot the following season and who’s future greatness is tied to Mike Dunleavy’s knee.

That’s OK. I’ll take the Pistons.

It’s ok. Detroit is the whipping boy for national media. They can hate us all they want but in the end, every one of them would take a pair of pliers to their fingernails to get to have the successful teams we have.

I mean really, only two other teams in the NBA have done better the last decade. San Antonio and LA. I hate to live in the past, but every other team can choke on it until they start proving it. Until then, fuck espn.

MarkButters:

:) A ton of + material in that post, and in a lot of ways I agree- over the long haul, I’d bet on the Pistons over most teams because Jod’s shown he can put together a championship winning squad. I’m just not sure if I’d take that bet for next season; IMO we have some pretty significant short-term question marks, and no Paul/Wade/Lebron caliber player to cover up those question marks.

Thanks Gabe.

Like Rami satate: we’ve always been the national media whipping boy. And the comparison of Stuck/Rip/AI drama to Stuck/Rip/BG is just plain ludicrous (sp). . . if for no other reason than the word defense never came out of AI’s mouth.

There are some short comings in the roster that hopefully can be patched together with the current team. But I think what’s missing from the analysis by ESPN is the exisiting culture of each team. Excl’g the Pistons, none of those other teams has a culture other than losing. What’s the big deal going to NY? You suck this year, hey, it’s the same as last year, no big deal. Props goes to Walsh for unloading Z-Bo’s contract and if he can unload Curry’s onto someone one, perhaps they’ve got things at least pointed in the right direction. But there’s a big difference between being pointed in the right direction and heading in the right direction.

I don’t know how anyone can say the Pistons are on their way down. I think they’ll be better then they were last year at the PG, SG, SF and PF positions. And I have to think that coaching and overall attitude/effort will be better too.

Co-sign, QD.

I think pretty much all these sports writers have it in for not just the Pistons but Detroit teams in general, There already bashing the lions ,who are gonna struggle, but to say were gonna be the worst team in the league again before we even play a game is a bit much ,I’ve also seen that alot of them are picking the Red Wings to finish 4th in the western conference what the fuck.I can’t wait til half way point of the season so all these fucks can see how stupid they are. On a side note the lions are gonna win 4 games and the the Red Wings will be at the top of the conference.

Red Wings most likely will drop off a bit this year- getting older, and lost Hossa (didn’t do anything in the playoffs when it mattered, but he did great in the reg season). Wings will be 3rd in the West, maybe 2nd.

Ben Gordon is a 41% career 3 point shooter

compare that to the list of all-time great 3 point shooters: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_National_Basketball_Association_career_3-point_scoring_leaders

Only Nash and Person have a better field goal percentage in that list. And unlike some current guys like Kapono and Korver, he’s not always shooting wide open 3’s off of other player’s penetration – cuz unlike those guys he was often chicago’s primary scoring threat and had people covering him when he made those shots.

That I think is a huge addition to our team. Even if he turns out to be as bad defensively as AI was (he’s a better defender btw), he can do what Iverson couldn’t, which is make 3 pointers. The result will be teams can;t play zone on us like they did last year.

Villanueva is playing for the Dominican Republic in the FIBA Americas. He had a spotty first game judging by the stats. Scored well but lots of turnovers and fouls. Also, there was apparently some incident where he and Al Horford were not allowed into a ceremony because their mothers were with them.

http://hoopshype.com/americas/boxscores/dom_bra.htm

OT: Lies, Damned Lies and Statistics.

@Colin: That article is hilarious. Especially the part about the Clippers.

I’m gonna go ahead and say this because my love and addiction to the Pistons cannot come into question, especially here on DBB. But man, can any of you honestly blame ESPN and the rest of the sports media world for their skepticism on our upcoming season?

So ESPN polls their writers, and when asked to pick a team with the most likely recession in the coming season, they chose Detroit? Egads!

Take the perspective of an NBA writer, an NBA fan or anyone who doesn’t follow the Pistons as we do. Then consider a few VERY basic things:

1) We went from 59 wins to 39 wins in one season.
2) We hired a new coach this season (an upgrade to us, but is that clear to anyone else?).
3) We have an entirely new frontcourt, top to bottom.
4) During our big money offseason, we doubled-down at our already strongest position.

We all know this team very well. As QuickDarshan said above, we likely improved at every position aside from the 5 going into 2009-10. But honestly, do any of you even actually think the media, who knows this team nowhere near as well as we do, is going to actually give us a + going into this season?

The media hates on the Pistons every single year, have done so since we lost to the Spurs in game 7. For the first time since our championship, THEY ACTUALLY HAVE A RATIONAL ARGUMENT.

Yeah, they’re likely wrong. But I don’t see why we’re all getting our panties in a bunch about it. We’ve gone from a shitty season to a new season of uncertainty. It’s an easy pick for the media. If I wasn’t a Pistons fan, I’d look at the facts and likely vote accordingly.

ESPN sportswriters can’t hold a candle to Matt Watson when it comes to our Pistons. But if you pooled a group of NBA-minded folk and asked them “whose upcoming season is rife with uncertainty, could likely face turmoil” and they pick the Pistons, why the hell would any of you boohoo about it?

Great points, MP. Maybe we shrewd Pistons observers can put our knowledge to productive use, and bet that the Pistons will exceed (general) expectations…you know, on Intrade or some other betting outlet.

@PS:
Fuckin’ A!

Also, I’ll take a bunch of ill-informed NBA writers over a bunch of overzealous homers (see: Langois) any day of the week. It’s better to prove wrong than be proven wrong.

My only issue, is that the media and in particular ESPN paints itself as being expert analysis. Aside from that, I like beer.

Betting on the Pistons to go OVER vs their Projected Wins Total this season … when it eventually comes out … would be “just revenge” for Pistons fans.

If that number for Projected Wins comes in at a depressed value … which it just might, given the poor reviews the national US media is heaping on Detroit & Joe D. … then ardent Pistons fans should seriously consider this type of financial investment in their favourite team this year.

When a team like Detroit drops from 59 to 39 wins in a single season, and fires its head coach after just 1 year on the job, and then drafts what’s widely viewed [mistakenly?] as a number of redundant players … there is also a great deal of “added value” there, for the discriminating NBA observer who enjoys investing his/her money in the occasional sporting proposition, in order to make a profit.

Remember where you heard it first … the Pistons might just be a “great bet” this season to exceed their Projected Wins Total, when this number is posted in betting shops around the world.

You can thank me later. :-)

1) We went from 59 wins to 39 wins in one season.
2) We hired a new coach this season (an upgrade to us, but is that clear to anyone else?).
3) We have an entirely new frontcourt, top to bottom.
4) During our big money offseason, we doubled-down at our already strongest position.

Not to mention, Jod seems to be assembling a roster whose style of play won’t resemble what we’ve all come to know as Detroit Basketball (no defensive intimidator, up-tempo style, undersized but mobile bigs, etc.).

Personally, I share a lot of the sentiments in the ESPN article — except for the idea that we’re in turmoil. I’d prefer transition.

However, should we start the season 5 and 15, then turmoil would seem the apt choice of word. (I think that’s unlikely, though).

Gulker, do you think 5-15 is unlikely, or the resulting turmoil is unlikely? 10 of the first 20 are on the road. 10 of 20 are against playoff teams. There’s also 5 back to back games. Seems like a pretty balanced schedule, with 10-11 games that we could/should win. 5-15? That’s a pretty low bar.

@MP: Very valid points. My only beef with the article is that when you take a look at everyone with, what I believe, the same eye they cast at the Pistons, there are alot of teams left out as possible blow ups.

Sure the Wiz will be better, but they also have a new coach, new players (miller/Foye) and really a new FA (arenas) who hasn’t played with the team in two years and didn’t do shit with the draft for 2-3 years down the road in terms of building a nucleus. I forget who, but whenver Butler/Jamison/Arenas have played together they’ve been a .500 team. Why are we assuming that’s going to be any different, particularly when the east has gotten stronger in the last 2 years.

Likewise with the Pacers, the Hornets and Toronto. Nobody makes much of the fact that Bargiani is really a Chris Bosh duplicate. Finesse inside, short/mid-range jumper and very soft low post D. I can see Coangelo letting Bosh walk, moving Bargiani to PF and signing a 5 or going after Amare for that spot and really becoming the suns east.

For us, the cripe is we signed a FA to a shitload of money at our a position our best player plays. These other teams not only didn’t do that, they didn’t even sign someone to play a position their worst player plays.

But my biggest bitch is the comparison of Stuck/Rip/BG to Stuck/Rip/AI. Nothing could be more preposterous, particularly since BG’s won a 6th man of the year award (I believe) or has come damn close to it. That’s just lazy and shitty reporting posing as analysis.

As Piston fans, even if we had been 7 or 6 seed last season we knew we were dysfunctional as a team. We also recognize that as long as the effort is there the other stuff will come in due time and we can live with that effort. Alot of teams have in their pre-season guides “new team” “under new management” “new direction” “new era” etc. We don’t do that because we know what is expected out of our team, what direction we’re headed (tough defense, effort on every play) regardless of who we hire. Even if we had brought in Avery or JVG we’d still be the same Pistons.

And I think if we had been able to keep Dyess, we’d be listed as a possible 4-5 seed easily. Dyess is a 10/10 guy, not a world beating FA at this point in his career and what he brings doesn’t often show up in the box score. So if that’s the type of player that could move us from this list to a serious 4 seed possibility, we can’t be that close to implosion.

If we start 5-15 we don’t have to worry about some soon to be FA suddenly being on the block or leaving next summer. Toronto, Mia, Phx, Clev (though they won’t be 5-15 but anything below 55-50 wins will be) have to worry about that. We post 45 wins and that will surprise alot of people (juding from artilces). Any of those teams don’t win at least 45 and some probably have to get to 50, they’ve failed.

At 10-15, sure there’ll be a chorus of trade Rip/Tay postings, but even if we do it and take back a little less in return and fill a hole, we’ll be OK. Put that scenario on any one of the above teams and I don’t see how anyone can make the arguement that we’re closer to the implosion pill than other teams because trading anyone of those players from those teams will require that team to take back less and they’ll be worse for it.

@ Craig:

Gulker, do you think 5-15 is unlikely, or the resulting turmoil is unlikely? 10 of the first 20 are on the road. 10 of 20 are against playoff teams. There’s also 5 back to back games. Seems like a pretty balanced schedule, with 10-11 games that we could/should win. 5-15? That’s a pretty low bar.

I think it’s unlikely that we will start 5-15. If we did, then it would be fair to call us a team in turmoil.

OTOH, I don’t think this roster is much better than last season, and I think we should realistically expect about a .500 team. So, a 5-15/8-12 start might not be out of the question, given all the new pieces. But, there is a big difference between a 5-15 and 8-12 start.

Anyway, as MP noted, especially as an outsider, it makes sense to think of this team as a team in turmoil. Even as an insider, it’s not entirely clear what Jod is trying to do (especially at SG), and all of that gets amplified if you’re not rooting for the team I think.

Mike Payne, I see what you’re saying about espn writers not following the Pistons like we do, but they claim to be “experts”. Experts take more than a superficial look when analyzing something; not just what any lame brain can assume just by looking at the roster on paper.

They disregard MCIAFI. They portray that our coaching change was a bad thing, even though Q-Star is probably already leaps and bounds above MCIAFI before coaching his first game. They pretend that Sheed was a great asset and we let him “skip town”, when he hurt the team more then help with his attitude and dissent and no post play. They compare our guard situation to last year when the only real comparison is that we have 3 starters. BG already said he’s willing to come off the bench and play D, something AI never even considered or ever done his whole career.

I think our team, even on paper and before the first game is played, is better than last years just by virtue of coaching change alone, not to mention the new bloods.

Mike Payne, I see what you’re saying about espn writers not following the Pistons like we do, but they claim to be “experts”. Experts take more than a superficial look when analyzing something; not just what any lame brain can assume just by looking at the roster on paper.

They disregard MCIAFI. They portray that our coaching change was a bad thing, even though Q-Star is probably already leaps and bounds above MCIAFI before coaching his first game. They pretend that Sheed was an asset and we let him “skip town”, when he hurt the team more then help with his attitude and dissent and no post play. Then they claim he’s the worst newcomer to Boston. Wha? How can that be? They compare our guard situation to last year when the only real comparison is that we have 3 guard who can be starters. BG already said he’s willing to come off the bench and play D, something AI never even considered or ever done his whole career. I consider this a plus. We have a very good back court rotation now.

I think our team, even on paper and before the first game is played, is better than last years just by virtue of coaching change alone, not to mention the new bloods.

ooops, sorry about the double post. The 2nd one is the real one, the first should be deleted.

@Rami:
Mike Payne, I see what you’re saying about espn writers not following the Pistons like we do, but they claim to be "experts". Experts take more than a superficial look when analyzing something; not just what any lame brain can assume just by looking at the roster on paper.

Yeah, they’re “experts”— and they’re right. There are simply too many new variables on the new Pistons to accurately estimate next season’s outcome. While their vote was for “TeamTurmoil”, it might as well have been “pick the team with the greatest uncertainty”.

We feel differently from the “experts” because we have faith that the outcome will be positive. Experts don’t factor our kind of faith into the equation, especially when they’re supposed to remain objective.

My problem with it is the turmoil part. Besides Gordan/Hamilton possibly being a problem, what turmoil is there going to be? Expectations are low, the problem children (Sheed, AI) are gone, and everyone in the organization is preaching the ‘transitioning but promising’ line. To me, AI and Z-Bo, Artest and Kobe, LeBron and Shaq, the Knicks, and NOH killing their team all seem like bigger turmoil possibilities/certainties than Detroit. Besides after last year, any attitude problems will seem like mere hiccups. I just don’t see where the “turmoil” will come from.

Yeah, they’re "experts"– and they’re right. There are simply too many new variables on the new Pistons to accurately estimate next season’s outcome. While their vote was for "TeamTurmoil", it might as well have been "pick the team with the greatest uncertainty".

Those same guys though picked the Clippers to have the biggest turnaround, which is just stupid. At least when people here on DBB make idiotic claims, we have some form of accountability – like five months later “HAHAHAHA DIPSHIT, REMEMBER WHEN YOU SAID THE CLIPPERS WERE GOING TO TURN IT AROUND??? NICE CALL ON THAT ONE FUCKFACE!!” (always fun times) It’s pretty bad when a DBBer has to be more careful about his calls than an “expert”, because there’s more likelihood about being called for a retarded prediction.

On a separate note.

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/story/12116762

I’d feel better about that if he wasn’t followed by Bargnani and Oden though…

Oden’s definitely going to “break out” this year. If only because he’s finally 100% healthy. He won’t be an All-Star— yet— but he’s going to average a double-double and compete with D12 for DPOY. I guarantee it.

And Bargnani is a vagina.

Minor, but happy news: http://www.nba.com/hotspots/ is now working again, and the numbers appear to be there for every team.

For stats inclined people, I highly recommend looking at Ben Gordon’s hotspots from last season, they’re pretty amazing. CV’s hotspots from last season are disappointing, his overall shooting ability is lower than you would expect from someone billed as a “stretch” PF.

Awesome, thanks Gabe. Now if only you could export/share this data on a URL instead of just taking a screenshot. They need better support of that little tool.

Question.

If the Pistons were to play their first 20 games this season with the following “hypothetical outcomes”:

DATE OPPONENT W-L?
October
Wed 28 @ Memphis W, 1-0
Fri 30 vs Oklahoma City W, 2-0
Sat 31 @ Milwaukee W, 3-0
November
Tue 03 vs Orlando W, 4-0
Wed 04 @ Toronto L, 4-1
Fri 06 @ Orlando L, 4-2
Sun 08 vs Philadelphia W, 5-2
Wed 11 vs Charlotte W, 6-2
Sat 14 @ Washington L, 6-3
Sun 15 vs Dallas L, 6-4
Tue 17 @ LA Lakers L, 6-5
Wed 18 @ Portland L, 6-6
Sat 21 @ Utah L, 6-7
Sun 22 @ Phoenix L, 6-8
Wed 25 vs Cleveland L, 6-9
Fri 27 vs LA Clippers W, 7-9
Sun 29 vs Atlanta W, 8-9
December
Wed 02 @ Chicago L, 8-10
Fri 04 vs Milwaukee W, 9-10
Sun 06 vs Washington W, 10-10

Would their faithful followers be overly disgruntled?

Anything close to results like that and the Pistons should be in solid shape to secure their 9th consecutive trip to the playoffs over the course of their final 65 games.

The record will do. But I think judgement has to include “how” we’re playing. “How” by and in itself doesn’t win games, but lays the groundwork for the remaining 65 games.

@ Joel:

And Bargnani is a vagina.

Was that meant to be derogatory? Cause, well, vagina’s hardly a bad thing (at least to a hetero like me).

@khandor,

Preface: my comments are contingent on the notion that it’s going to take more than 20 games (perhaps an entire season) for this group of Pistons to mesh, to develop effective offensive/defensive schemes for the personnel, etc.

Having said that, I see a few weaknesses in what you posted (but thanks for posting all those dates)

I have little-to-no reason to think we can beat Orlando at all, much less in the fourth game of the season.

I am skeptical we will beat Atlanta that early in the season. They were significantly better than us last year, and they haven’t downgraded.

A healthy Philly is going to be a tough win on the road (on a Sunday, no less).

I would definitely say that beating the Bucks twice in the first 20 will be difficult, assuming they are healthy.

And if Washington is healthy, they are a difficult split as well.

That’s six potential losses right there … which is freaky scary. I retract my above comments about 5-15 being unlikely. It’s entirely possible after looking at the schedule.

For a chuckle, take a look at Kwame’s hot spots. Just as it should be.

That Philly game is not on the road, oops.

Dumars has an interiew on pistons. Where he says Ben clearly knew he came here to be a 6th man. when Rip found out that there was interest in BG. he was in favor of Dumars getting it done. BG has been a 6th man all of his life. when he came he even sold himself on the team, instead of Dumars selling the team on him. I say we lay the Rip/BG thing to rest. As we heard from the Horses mouth who is gonna play which role. and while their is plenty of min. for Rip, BG, Stuck. MFWB should be our only concern at the gaurd position.

Those first two Orlando games will be sans Rashard Lewis, so that should help in our cause.

The back-court troika of Stuckey, Hamilton & Gordon just might be terrific right off the bat this season! … depending on the system Kuester installs and whether or not he is willing to chain Bynum to the bench, in favour of those three players, exclusively, at the 1 & 2 spots, ala Daly’s original Bad Boyz [i.e Zeke, Joe D & The Microwave]. If Kuester makes that decision, early-on … then, IMO, the Pistons will start the season in a very cohesive way.

Prince, backed-up by some combination of Washington [super-duper athlete], Summers [physically strong], Daye [physically “not strong”, but offensively gifted] and Jerebko [all-around solid player], will give them all sorts of flexibility to match-up with different opponents on the wing based on their unique individual skill sets.

Although Villanueva [scorer], Maxiell [shot-blocker-reounder], Wallace [shot-blocker-rebounder], Wilcox [shot-blocker/rebounder] and Brown [rebounder] might seem individually underwhelming, as a group, they are relatively “active”, not too bad athletically, and should provide the team with solid shot-blocking, interior defense and rebounding, on a consistent basis.

Similar to the Pistons of old, this group will need to rely on their back-court for the bulk of their offense and expect their front-court to take care of the grunt work. Then, as Stuckey, Washington, Daye, Summers and Jerebko continue to mature … in support of workhorses like RIP, Prince & Gordon … Detroit should be able to remain competitive in the EC for years to come.

@scntfc

I read that interview too and it makes the whole guard situation seem very promising. If BG is completely dedicated to coming off the bench, as Joe D says, I think we have easily the best backcourt in the league. Can you think of a better 4-guard rotation? Especially if we’ve got a BG in his prime totally committed to being the sixth man (at least this season), Rip still in his prime, the proven explosiveness of MFWB (in limited minutes, which is what he’s looking at), and a bound-to-improve Stuckey.

Yeah Im excited about the 4gaurd rotation. just kinda worried about WB now. I, like most feels he is a guy that needs to be here long term. but thats not gonna happen if he doesn’t get min. he would be an assett to almost any team out there next yr.In hindsite last year coulda been better.If attitudes were in place things would have went better. also with the majority of our roster being filled with combo players. maybe it can work. of the 88-89 teams. we had 3 true gaurds and 7 combo players with agguire/ dantley being combo g/f. so this year it may be more about coach Qster. and less about the players. as our franchise itself has proven it can be done successfully

@khandor:
depending on the system Kuester installs and whether or not he is willing to chain Bynum to the bench

You’re crazy. Chain our best backcourt defender, our best distributor and our best finisher to the bench?

“…we have easily the best backcourt in the league.”

A healthy Wade + some random guys off the street is probably as good or better than our backcourt.

Last seasons stats for Stuck/Rip/Gordon/Wade:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/tiny.cgi?id=4X39N

Quick summary: Stuck, Rip, and Gordon’s combined Win Shares from last season is 0.5 higher than Wade’s on his own.

If Stuck improves a lot then our backcourt will be much better for it, but it’s hard to guess how good he’ll eventually be.

Still, it’s clear we’ve got some nice depth in our guard rotation and the PG/SG/SF positions will be the strengths of the team next season. Hopefully the roster depth at those positions is used to keep everyone fresh, rather than as an excuse for smallball. And hopefully we give the rookies some run at their natural positions (please no Summers at PF! That’s all I ask of you, Jod. I promise not to grumble/complain if Summers backs up Tay all year, just no minutes at PF. Thank you).

He is crazy. I read somebody on here poppin’ that weak about “Will Bynum’s replacement” and I was like shit, smack fire outcha ass for such talk.

crosses arms, mean mugs, stands shoulder-to-shoulder with MFSkylar

Dominican Republic won their second game. Better game from CV this time:

http://hoopshype.com/americas/boxscores/pan_dom.htm

@Gabe

Easy explanation for the win share disparity— the Heat were better than we were last year. And as far as Wade + randoms being better than proven depth, I’m not so sure you take Wade there. The Heat only did shit (‘04-’06) when there were solid veterans playing beside and behind Wade on the depth chart (and they had Shaq). I’d take a depth chart at guard with literally no dropoff at any point over one superstar and some D-leaguers any day. It’s pretty much how Detroit’s always won.

the Dominican has a nice frontcourt with Horford and CV.

Mike Payne,

No disrespect intended.

Bynum is a solid enough player, in isolation.

With the mix of players on the Pistons, however, Bynum is a gigantic waste of time.

2007-2008, Detroit = 59 wins … no Will Bynum

2008-2009, Detroit = 39 wins … lots of Will Bynum

Without Bynum seeing in any floor time last season, IMO, Rodney Stuckey’s development would have been even further along than it is already.

Will B. is, in fact, the things you said about him before … but, at his diminuitive size, so too is NOWHERE close to being the type of “little player” who succeeds leading his team in a big way, in the NBA, like Zeke did back in the day.

Will B. does not get the ball to his teammates at the right time to keep all his brethren happy and on the same page … with a deadly eye as a perimeter shooter.

IMO, Will B. was a huge problem with last year’s Detroit … as much as Michael Curry demonstrated that he was nowhere near being ready for this specific head coaching assignment, much to my personal chagrin.

Stuckey is the PG of this team.
RIP is the OG.
Gordon is The Microwave.

Will B. needs to be chained to the bench and play only within the role that Lindsey Hunter once had with this team, i.e. a limited minutes defensive replacement when the regulars are in tough spot match-up wise or simply having an off night.

@ khandor:

Are you talking about the same Will Bynum I watched last season? Will Bynum of the Detroit Pistons? MFWB?

2007-2008, Detroit = 59 wins … no Will Bynum
2008-2009, Detroit = 39 wins … lots of Will Bynum

This equation needs a lot more variables.

3 . . . 2 . . .

@ khandor:

It is possible that you are a dumb-ass.

@khandor: i somewhat agree with you, but not really.

“2007-2008, Detroit = 59 wins … no Will Bynum

2008-2009, Detroit = 39 wins … lots of Will Bynum"

really? you went there? MFWD has nothing to do with that. horrible point, don’t ever bring it up again. Bynum is MUCH more explosive offensivley than Lindsey the Hunter when he had him. Bynum deserves at least a few more minutes than he got.

“MO, Will B. was a huge problem with last year’s Detroit”..right…like that time he put up 26 in the fourth to lead the Pistons to a win. right..HUGE problem. Most of your argument makes no sense, and is completely idiotic. The only thing i agree with you on is that he will not be like Zeke…but who the hell said he ever would be? That’s dumb to compare.

i had a lot of typos in there lol. Main point: khandor=dumb ass.

Also, Bynum MAY have altered Stuck’s development, but i doubt it. Stuck was kind of low-key last year, letting Rip, Tay, and AI try to lead the team. Bynum was just what the Pistons needed – a tough guy who took the game into his own hands.

I’d also like to criticize khandor for reading this post of mine, up-thread…

http://www.detroitbadboys.com/archives/2009-08-23/its-contagious/#comment-194736

…then waiting seven hours…

…then rehashing the same basic idea (betting the “over” on total Pistons wins this season) in this post, farther down the thread…

http://www.detroitbadboys.com/archives/2009-08-23/its-contagious/#comment-194741

…a post in which khandor wrote “Remember where you heard it first”…

Listen, I’m not a genius for coming up with the idea. Probably a bunch of DBB regulars were thinking the same thing, but didn’t find it worthwhile to leave a comment. But your post clearly demonstrated that you are a chode-stroking, turd-biting dumb-ass.

@ khandor:

I would venture that you suck even more than most Raptors fans.

" "

@khandor

2007-2008, Detroit = 59 wins … no Will Bynum

2008-2009, Detroit = 39 wins … lots of Will Bynum

I stopped reading you after you that. As if we could boil last season’s mess down to MFWB. Right.

==========

@ Joel:

What leads you to believe we have one of the best backcourts in the game? I’d have to say I’m with Gabe (again). Other than one brief stretch of games, Stuckey has been well below average … and as fun as MFWB is to watch, he is very limited on offense. And there are only 48 minutes at SG, so it’s more than fair to assume we’ll see BG’s and/or Rip’s averages fall.

I simply don’t see it. Here are aggregate averages from last season (piggy-backing on Gabe):

Combined shooting percentage: 44.7%
Combined 3P%: 36%
Rebounds: 2.6 (Wade gets 5)
Assists: 4.2 (Wade gets 7.5)
Steals: 0.83 (Wade gets 2.2)
Blocks: 0.16 (Wade gets 1.3)
Points: 17.5 (Wade gets 30.2)

I’m not sure how we can claim we have one of the best backcourts in the league. Maybe we’re better than average. Maybe. But even that is contingent upon whether or not Stuckey becomes a legit NBA PG (not even great, just average to above-average).

But the worst part of it all, those three guys get those numbers in an average of 34 minutes night (34*3=102). And there’s no way that holds steady next season unless Q-ster insists on playing guys out of position, and we’ve already been around that mountain and how that will negatively impact wins.

2007-2008, Detroit = 59 wins … no Will Bynum
2008-2009, Detroit = 39 wins … lots of Will Bynum

I got a new equation of my own.

2007-2008, khandor = ate 6.7 turds per day, stroked 32.9 chodes per day
2008-2009, khandor = ate 5.1 turds per day, stroked 29.4 chodes per day

If khandor returns to his turd-consumption rate from two years ago, then he will have enough energy to stroke a greater number of chodes, but whether that would be a positive development depends on your personal perspective. Either way, khandor is still a dumb-ass.

@ khandor:

You still suck.

laughing my mother fucking ass off. +10000 to PS

@ khandor:

Did you vote for John Edwards?

Or his Canadian equivalent? Jack Layton?

@ khandor:

knee to khandor’s groin

Who didn’t vote for John Edwards?

I’ll bet Moammar Gadhafi didn’t vote for John Edwards.

So if you didn’t vote for John Edwards, you might as well be Moammar Gadhafi.

You fucking dicks.

@ khandor:

I hope you learned your lesson from all of this.

You might can chain Willie Bynumite to the bench, but he’s gone break them shits quicker than Houdini.

Considering Bynum’s +/- for the year was a positive (on a below .500 team), I think we can safely say that he wasn’t the problem.

Re: Best Backcourts

I think the Pistons are up there. Off the top of my head I would say Boston (Allen, Rondo, House, Daniels), Orlando (Nelson, Carter, Johnson, Pietrus), Washington (Arenas, Miller, Foye, Young), Denver (Billups, JR Smith, Afflalo, Lawson) are up there too.

I think Portland would have had the best backcourt if they had signed Ben Gordon instead of Andre Miller. A Brandon Roy/Ben Gordon backcourt with Rudy Fernandez and Jeryd Bayless coming off the bench would be something to behold for many years.

LeBron James is a pretty good back court, too. And front court.

So how does a four man rotation look and can MFWB be on the floor with BG given the height disadvantage?

Not that i’m knocking Wade ,even tho I hate his ass, I think we’ve left out one very important factor in the stats comparisons namely the refs let him get away with murder with no calls or a call against the other team. If you factor in how man fouls he should get,you’d see his stats drops across the board.That being said he is a hell of a player ,I just think he gets more credit then he deserves.Sometimes I wish somebody would castrate Stern and his never ending list of rule changes.

Just got in, read Khander’s post, then read PS and others responses. I don’t think I need to say a damn thing.

Khander, you’re a moron. You know we won 59 games the season before you first commented? All your fault. Maybe you should promote your poopy blog elsewhere?

@br

“@ Joel:

And Bargnani is a vagina.

Was that meant to be derogatory? Cause, well, vagina’s hardly a bad thing (at least to a hetero like me)."

He meant to call Bargnani a PUSSY… wtf

@khandor

You’re an idiot. Nice basic setup on your blog.. at least take advantage of the FREE themes wordpress offers you dunce

1. I have no intention of arguing here with Detroit fans who think the Pistons can return to their former status as an elite level team with Will Bynum as a main cog in their back-court rotation, along with Stuckey, RIP, Gordon. If this happens this season … you will be proven right, and I will be proven wrong. If Will Bynum plays heavy minutes again this season and the Pistons struggle once again then …

Postive “individual stats” mean very little for a PG, if his team finishes with more L’s than W’s.

2. If someone else mentioned betting the OVER on the Pistons Projected Wins Total this season as “just revenge” for the national US media ragging on Joe D.’s performance this summer then please accept my apology. I must not have missed that section in this thread when I glanced over the entire thing before posting the comment which I left concerning that very thing.

3. When a team has a young PG that they want to install as their main guy after trading away a vet like Chauncey Billups, it doesn’t matter how much he struggles during that season, he shaould not have his minutes eaten into by a smallish PG the likes of Will Bynum.

4. Unfortunately for the Will Bynum fans … when you’ve got a smallish guard like Ben Gordon coming to your team, as a big money UFA, there just isn’t a good fit on the floor with a smallish PG, when you’re other options include players with the game and size of Stuckey, RIP, Prince & Washington.

Sorry … that should read as:

I must have missed that section in this thread when I glanced over the entire thing before posting the comment which I left concerning that very thing.

@the wrath of khan

you should check out deeeeeeeetroit’s blog, I hear it’s awesome

Skylar Wins.

@Khandor:
Postive "individual stats" mean very little for a PG, if his team finishes with more L’s than W’s.

Are you high? Do you know what +/- stats mean? It’s not an individual stat— it shows the team performance when that player is on the floor.

As QuickDarshan mentioned above, Will Bynum had a positive +/- on the season. In fact, he led all backcourt players in +/- this season. Since the facts seem hazy to you at best, I’ll explain— this means that when Will Bynum was on the court, our team played BETTER than it did without. This is exceptional because we were < .500 this season. He made us a better team, he won games for us against tough defensive opponents and he saved games for us when they were on the line. Alongside Rip Hamilton and Antonio McDyess, he was the best player on our team in the 2008-09 season.

You’re concerned about his height when playing alongside Ben Gordon. Does he have to play alongside Ben Gordon? NO. We have two shooting guards, one of whom is 6’7"— so he can play with that guard so we won’t face any perceived mismatch issues you seem to suggest.

Finally, some math on how Will Bynum compares to Rodney Stuckey, Rip Hamilton and Ben Gordon:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/tiny.cgi?id=CxTpe

Will Bynum is a better passer, a better defender, an equivalent rebounder, draws the most fouls and has the highest PER of any of those four players.

Did you watch any Pistons games this year? Did you see the franchise record in clutch scoring Will Bynum set this season? None of the opinions you’ve expressed have ANY basis in reality. And here on DBB, we don’t stand for that shit. See the “submit” button on the bottom of this thread? Leave it alone.

@shinons:
3 . . . 2 . . .

I believe that is what you were waiting for :) Gotta give me a chance to get drunk and surly!

@ khandor:

If a smallish guard was our problem last season, that smallish guard who was the problem was not MFWB (think in terms of “superstars”).

The only person who would make the argument that MFWB was the problem is someone who didn’t watch many of our games last season; if such a person had watched games, our problems would have been as obvious to that person as to the rest of us here.

If Khandor had singled out any other player on the roster I doubt anyone gets worked up in defending that player. But the basic truth is MFWB outplayed every other guard on the roster last season. Anyone who watched every single shitty game from our shitty year would back that up.

He was one of the few players with a positive +/- http://www.82games.com/0809/08DET2.HTM#onoff and what makes his +/- more impressive is he only started getting heavy minutes late in the season, when we had already started to suck.

It would be a pretty low of the Pistons to not give MFWB an opportunity to improve on his already solid performance, and instead give that chance to guys who played worse. Seems like that’s a bad message to send to your players: Play better than everyone else and we still won’t give you any minutes!

’Memba this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=poSp441LLkM

Garrett, that had to be one of the highlights of the season for me.

As I’ve said already, I’m not here to argue with Pistons fans.

Those who want to base their evaluation of the basketball abilities of Stuckey, RIP, Gordon and Bynum on last season’s “individual game stats” … whether FG%, #FG%, TS%, eFG%, REBS, PTS, +/-, AST, TO, ST, BS, PF, O-Eff, or D-Eff, etc. … are certainly free to do just that, without considering the number in their team’s Win column vs previous years and incarnations of their roster.

If the Pistons give minutes to the following back-court tandems this coming season:

OPTION 1

1 Bynum, 6-0 + Hamilton, 6-7
2 Bynum, 6-0 + Gordon, 6-3
3 Bynum, 6-0 + Stuckey, 6-5
4 Bynum, 6-0 + Washington, 6-7 [situational only]

5 Stuckey, 6-5 + Hamilton, 6-7
6 Stuckey, 6-5 + Gordon, 6-3
7 Stuckey, 6-5 + Washington, 6-7 [situational only]

8 Gordon, 6-3 + Hamilton, 6-7
9 Gordon, 6-3 + Washington, 6-7 [situational only]

IMO, their team will NOT be as cohesive, or as strong defensively, or as strong on the boards, nor make the sort of progress overall they could … given the size & abilities of their front-court players … as, if they run with the following set-up, instead, thereby limiting their number of pairings:

OPTION 2

1 Stuckey, 6-5 + Hamilton, 6-7
2 Stuckey, 6-5 + Gordon, 6-3
3 Stuckey, 6-5 + Washington, 6-7 [situational only]

4 Gordon + Hamilton
5 Gordon + Washington [situational only]

A set-up like Option 2, at the #1/PG & #2/OG positions, in conjunction with something like the following usage at the #3/SF spot:

Prince … Primary PT
Daye or Washington … Secondary PT
Summers or Jerebko … What’s Left

will succeed in making Detroit a solid defensive and rebounding team, once again, this season … with a back-court that can score the ball and is multi-dimensional.

Iverson’s poor play last season certainly didn’t help the Pistons.

Although Bynum is a solid Back-up PG in this league … his skill set and size doesn’t warrant extended minutes in a rotation that now includes the following 14 players:

PG: Stuckey, Gordon [Bynum = extra]
OG: Hamilton, Gordon [Washington = extra]
SF: Prince, Daye or Washington [Summers + Jerebko = extra]
PF: Maxiell, Villanueva
C: Wilcox, Brown or Wallace

Others are certainly free to disagree with my opinion, at any time, including rabid Pistons fans on DBB.

Props to khandor for not fighting fire with fire, as it were.

I still don’t buy anything you’re selling, but I respect the way you present yourself in spite of being ridiculed.

@Gabe,

If Khandor had singled out any other player on the roster I doubt anyone gets worked up in defending that player. But the basic truth is MFWB outplayed every other guard on the roster last season. Anyone who watched every single shitty game from our shitty year would back that up.

Doesn’t Stuckey’s total domination of Rose in December mean that he’s going to be a much better pro? That’s irrefutable proof, right?

ducks for cover

OM:

:) heh, I think we’ve covered the Stuck vs. Rose debate so thoroughly that DBB must have a foolproof immunity to it at this point. And if we’re comparing random awesome games, I’d say overall MFWB’s 26 point fourth quarter is roughly equal to Stuck’s 40 point game- Stuck’s was against Rose (which is cool), but MFWB’s came when we were in danger of completely falling out of the playoffs and was after Rip got thrown out of the game.

@ MP

Finally, some math on how Will Bynum compares to Rodney Stuckey, Rip Hamilton and Ben Gordon:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/tiny.cgi?id=CxTpe

What’s so telling about these statistics are the Per 36 numbers. All four players are fairly similar until you get to Assists, Steals, and TO’s.

MFWB is better Per 36 when it comes to assists and steals — but he’s far worse with respect to TO’s (and I’m talking about totals).

Assist to TO ration, however, tells a little bit different story:

MFWB: 2.05
BG: 1.375 (And we’re supposed to believe he can be an effective PG?)
Rip: 2.24
Stuck: 2.2

The one thing MFWB excels at above the rest is steals, which is very valuable, because a steal from a PG often results in a break away layup, and it also lends credibility to the idea that he’s our best perimeter defender. And his rebounding numbers suggest that his size isn’t the issue people are making it out to be.

Now, I’m still on the MFWB train, because I think he can improve that A/TO ratio with the right coaching and more experience. But, the numbers don’t lie; we have some glaring backcourt weaknesses — all of four of our guards are good scorers, but not very efficient shooters, and relatively bad at taking care of the basketball.

(Which gets directly to Joel’s idea that we have one the best backcourst in all of basketball — we simply don’t.)

Khandor:

I’m a Bynum supporter, but I appreciate your civility. For the sake of brevity, I won’t repeat all the arguments already made on Bynum’s behalf, although I do agree with them. Here’s my question. Doesn’t your argument come down to (1) playing two short guards at the same time can create predictable problems re rebounding, and (2) playing Bynum hurt Stuckey’s development (and would continue to do so this year)?

If so, as to (1), that’s pretty obvious and, I think, avoidable. As a Pistons fan, I’m much more worried about the temptation to play the other three guards together in a “small ball” lineup.

As to (2), in last year’s lineup, neither Rip nor AI was a competent point guard, and in this year’s lineup, neither Rip nor BG is a point guard. So, when Stuckey was resting, banged up, or not playing well, who should have played point guard? Consider here, as others have said, that Bynum actually played well by any objective measure (if you think he’s responsible in any large part for the 20 game win drop off . . . well, you can’t REALLY think that, can you?).

Finally, I note that you say that “I’m not here to argue with Pistons fans.” I think you are. It’s OK to argue/debate with Pistons fans, but that is in fact what you’re doing.

As I’ve said already, I’m not here to argue with Pistons fans.

Oh yes, you’re here to lecture people who, you know, actually watched the games with your wonderful analysis along the lines of “Will Bynum is not as tall as Ben Gordon, so Ben Gordon is better at playing point guard.” Thanks!

Others are certainly free to disagree with my opinion, at any time, including rabid Pistons fans on DBB.

“Rabid”? Nice. Well thanks for your permission to disagree with your retarded opinions. I’ll take you up on it. How about for your next piece of bullshittery you offer a dissertation about how substituting Villanueva for McDyess will improve our rebounding because CV31 is taller? That’d be a great read.

wait a minute… who said Bynum is going to be anything more than a 15 minute per night guy?

I mean, I like the guy.. he has his nights but, let’s be honest with ourselves. His perimeter game is worse than Stuckey’s and he has been careless with the ball against better defensive teams.

I think we’ve all got a little too much “MFWB garbage time” highlights on the brain, for real. I like the guy, he’s not worth anything close to MLE and if he gets offered that next offseason I’d sign and trade his ass.

It’ll be interesting to see what Ramon Sessions gets this year. I can’t see Bynum getting offered as much (especially if Dumars scares everyone away by stating that he’ll match any offer).

Bynum is the perfect change of pace backup PG. He can bring instant offense and increase the tempo on both sides of the ball. And he forces opposing coaches to gameplan for the second unit.

I think we need to view our back court as more of a 3 and a half guard rotation with MFWB playing the least amount of min. outa the 4 but hopefully at least 10 to 15 mins. a game ,either Stuckey or MFWB should be running the point at all times except maybe the last 5 mins of the game, Qster will have to decide on the closing squad .This would mean less mins for the three main guards but should allow them all to play balls out picking up their guys full court on defense , we need all the defensive pressure we can get. Who knows if Qster will do this but it would definitly help the defense.

Toledo Joe,

I, too, appreciate your civility. :-)

There are several different but related points which I’ve tried to state here, thus far, including:

- Bynum should not play with Gordon [yes because they are too small as a tandem]
- Stuckey needs to be the Main PG for the Pistons
- Gordon needs to be the Back-up PG, in a three-Guard [PG-OG]rotation
- a three-Guard rotation … which looks like this:

Stuckey + Hamilton
Gordon + Stuckey
Gordon + Hamilton

will be better for this group of Pistons, from a cohesiveness & developmental standpoint … than attempting to fit in:

Bynum at PG, plus Gordon at OG …

given the presence of other talented young G/G-F’s like Washington, Daye, Summers and Jerebko, in conjunction with stalwarts like RIP & Prince who, IMO, should be widely acknowledged as two of Detroit’s best remaining players.

- when you factor in, as well, the possible lack of size/height in the Pistons front-court this year, and the concomitant reduction in rebounding which might occur from the PF & C spots … at least, in comparison with previous editions of the team … using only 1 smallish guard in their main rotation [i.e. Ben Gordon] would give their squad the best opportunity to compensate for this deficiency by increasing the size of their back-court for the bulk of the available MP. [i.e. Bynum needs to be chained to the bench]

As I said before … Bynum is a solid back-up PG in this league, it’s just that [A] he didn’t fit with last year’s team once they acquired Allen Iverson [another smallish guard], in return for Chauncey, and [B] he doesn’t fit with this year’s team, either, as a main rotation player, now that they’ve acquired a player like Ben Gordon [another smallish guard, BUT, who can also play effectively as a PG, beside: RIP & Prince/Washington/Daye/Summers/Jerebko; and, Stuckey & Prince/Washington/Daye/Summers/Jerebko].

[NOTE: If I’m not mistaken this is something which Joe D. has now begun to refer to in his recent interviews concerning the expected role of Ben Gordon with the team.]

I’m not here to argue with Pistons fans. I am here to state my observations about their team, given [i] the games I’ve watched them play over the years, dating back to the early 1970’s [including every year since then], and [ii] my experience in and around the game itself.

Those who would like to disagree with my perspective are free to do so, if they wish.

I am more than willing to clarify my initial observations, with follow-up comments, if they do not seem to make sense to others, at first-glance, for those with a genuine interest in understanding how someone else thinks about the game.

The Pistons have one of the best organizations in the NBA today and one of the great GM’s in the game.

Cheers

Shinons,

Will Bynum is not as good a PG as either Rodney Stuckey or Ben Gordon.

If that’s an observation with which you disagree, that’s your perogative.

Will Bynum should be chained to the bench this season, in favour of the Pistons using two PG’s like Rodney Stuckey and Ben Gordon, both of whom present a combination of size and skill-set which is superior to Mr. Bynum’s.

If you think that qualifies as “bullshittery”, to you, that is your perogative, as well.

I appreciate the job which Joe D. is undertaking with this team and think he has a long term plan of attack in place which is going to succeed in keeping the Pistons highly competitive with the other good teams in the EC while he gradually gears up for another run toward the top of the standings and, eventually, a chance at winning another NBA title.

Khandor, I think just about everyone here would agree with you on the horrors of a Bynum/Gordon backcourt. We’ve already discussed that. That being said, there are ways to play all four guards (with Bynum getting about 12 minutes). This requires Rip to play SF some.

Now it sounds like what you are saying (re: rebounding) is that you would rather not play Bynum at all than have Hamilton spell Prince at the SF spot. I think if you phrased it this way, you would not have drawn the ire of the dbb community because there might be some who agree with you.

Will Bynum is not as good a PG as either Rodney Stuckey or Ben Gordon.

Ben Gordon is not a point guard. He played more minutes last year at small forward than he did at point. The idea of having Gordon is about as awesome as MCIAFI’s idea of playing Tayshaun Prince at power forward last year.

Will Bynum should be chained to the bench this season, in favour of the Pistons using two PG’s like Rodney Stuckey and Ben Gordon, both of whom present a combination of size and skill-set which is superior to Mr. Bynum’s.

The number of teams that would actually be able to exploit the size of our backcourt can be counted on one hand.

If that’s an observation with which you disagree, that’s your perogative.

Observations require actually having to have watched the damn game. What you are offering is bullshittery based off of roster sheets and stat lines.

Shinons,

I’m completely comfortable with what Joe Dumars had to say in this interview, re: Gordon’s ability to succeed in a back-court line-up that looks like this:

“That’s where you give your coach options. You give him different options to go small, as you just stated, or just to close games in the last two minutes, the ball in Ben’s hands and let Rip play off the ball. Have Tayshaun at the three and put the ball in Tayshaun’s hands and let him initiate the offense for two minutes and have Rip and Ben on the wings. What you want to do is give your coach options and to have people on the floor who can attack the defense and put the defense in a tough spot.”
-—————————————————————————-

Joe isn’t always right in what he thinks about the game, or a specific player’s skill-set but, more often than not, I’m prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt, given everything he knows about and has accomplished in the game, to this point in his career.

As I’ve said, others are always free to disagree with me … and, in this case, Joe D. :-)

Quick Darshan,

Drawing ire is no problem for me.

re: “That being said, there are ways to play all four guards (with Bynum getting about 12 minutes). This requires Rip to play SF some.”
-——————————————————————————————

… and, if RIP plays those minutes at the #3/SF position, then, the development of Washington, Daye, Summers and Jerebko will suffer as a consequence.

There are always “ways” to accomplish different things on a basketball court.

What matter most is whether or not one way of doing something is more or less effective/productive for that team, in comparison with something else.

The four-Guard Option which you’ve alluded to there is going to be less effective for the Pistons this season … given their player personnel … compared to the three-Guard Option outlined above.

If they try out both ways this season … the results will eventually speak for themselves.

As I’ve said, others are always free to disagree with me … and, in this case, Joe D.

@kIAFI
WTF? Jod would choose to have our small fucking forward running the point over Gordon, and you think he’s agreeing with you?

Shinons,

First.

In your haste, you may have missed this part:

“… the ball in Ben’s hands and let Rip play off the ball …”

You might want to read it again.

Second.

When the ball is put in Prince’s hands, according to Joe D., it’s designed to:

“let him [Tay] initiate the offense for two minutes …”

Two minutes does not seem to be the same thing as saying:

“Joe D. prefers Prince [SF] as the PG over Ben Gordon.”

In your idiocy you might have missed the line before: “or just to close games in the last two minutes, the ball in Ben’s hands and let Rip play off the ball.”

I could pull out a ton of articles where Jod shows his preference for Bynum as the backup point guard. I could ask you what teams you think would exploit Bynum’s size for 15 minutes a night and why no one was able to last year. I could ask why you think a limited upside player like Washington deserves to be developed and a player who has excelled in his limited opportunities should not be developed.

But I don’t really give a shit. Maybe once you’ve actually watched some games. In the meantime, you’re at the very bottom of the totem pole in terms of merited opinions.

@Khandor:
Will Bynum is not as good a PG as either Rodney Stuckey or Ben Gordon.

On what grounds? Since you haven’t yet earned the respect of this community, you can’t drop declarative statements and expect us to agree with you. You need to back up your statements with facts and statistics.

Statistically, Will Bynum has proven to be a better point guard than Ben Gordon, and about equivalent to Rodney Stuckey.

@Shinons:
you’re at the very bottom of the totem pole in terms of merited opinions.

Aaaaaaaaaaagreed.

Shinons,

“I could pull out a ton of articles where Jod shows his preference for Bynum as the backup point guard.”
-——————————-

I’d be very interested in seeing those articles where Joe D. has expressed his preference for Will Bynum as the back-up PG to Rodney Stuckey … since Ben Gordon has been signed as an UFA this summer.

[NOTE: I’m not saying that they do not exist, only that, if they do, I’d really be interested in seeing those links … as I have yet to see or hear any talk like this coming from Joe. D, himself.]

re: the value of staistical “proof”

The “stats” which I am most interest in are:

• Number NBA Titles
• Number of NBA Finals appearances
• Number of NBA Conference championships
• Number of NBA Conference Finals appearance
• Number of playoff series won
• Number of regular season W’s

In my book, the Pistons qualify as a first-class organization.

re: merited opinions?

Time will be the judge of whether what I’ve said here turns out to be right or wrong. I’m completely comfortable with that specific adjudicator.

re: Bynum vs Washington

I am willing to make you a friendly wager.

You have access to the address of my “rudimentary style” blog, by clicking on my name in these comments.

If Will Bynum ends up being a player on the Pistons’ roster for more total years than Deron Washington … when their respective careers are finished, in the NBA … I invite you to visit my blog, at that time, drop me a simple “reminder” comment, and I will provide you with a public statement acknowledging that you were right about this and I was wrong, concerning that specific comparison.

Deal, or no deal?

PS. Will Bynum stands at 1 year, as of now. Deron Washington stands at 0 years. That’s already a significant advantage in your favour. :-)

If Will Bynum ends up being a player on the Pistons’ roster for more total years than Deron Washington … when their respective careers are finished, in the NBA … I invite you to visit my blog, at that time, drop me a simple "reminder" comment, and I will provide you with a public statement acknowledging that you were right about this and I was wrong, concerning that specific comparison.

Deal, or no deal?

No. For two reasons: 1) I really don’t care 2) I’ll have forgotten by lunch, not to mention in a year or two

But if you’re looking to pick a bet, you better hope Deron works on that his 62% free throw shooting – which judging by his summer league (38%), he hasn’t.

re: the value of staistical "proof"

The "stats" which I am most interest in are:

• Number NBA Titles
• Number of NBA Finals appearances
• Number of NBA Conference championships
• Number of NBA Conference Finals appearance
• Number of playoff series won
• Number of regular season W’s

In my book, the Pistons qualify as a first-class organization.

Agreed but with some qualifiers.

Teams win championships because their players play well. Statistics are an attempt to track what individual players make or do not make to team wins.

So, for you to say as you are, that BG > Bynum as a PG, there should be some statistical evidence to support the claim (assists, turnovers, and scoring efficiency is where I would look first, with steals as the primary indicator on defense). Unfortunately, the numbers we have for these two players do not suggest that.

Unfortunately … to this point in his NBA career … Ben Gordon has not really been put in a situation to evaulate his play properly as a legitmate PG, beside two solid wing players and a front-court tandem that would be a good fit together.

That said … if you take a look at the following positional stats for Ben Gordon:

2006-2007
2007-2008
2008-2009

you should begin to get a cleaer picture of where exactly BG’s strengths and weaknesses are rooted as a smallish guard, in the NBA.

It is only based upon someone’s actual Basketball Acumen that a legitimate “projection forward” can be made of exactly how Ben Gordon might thrive/fail in this specific situation, if he’s afforded this opportunity, in a long term/consistent situation with teammates the calibre of Rip, Stuckey, Prince, Washington, Daye, Summers & Jerebko.

[NOTE: Others are certainly free to think that Will Bynum is a better PG than Ben Gordon, if they wish.]

brgulker,

When you begin to look at the positional stats for Ben Gordon, as a PG:

2006-2007
2007-2008
2008-2009

the last 3 seasons show glimpses of what he can do and the way his team can play if he’s afforded the opportunity to play more consistent minutes at this position … with a collection of teammates like Rip, Stuckey, Prince, Washington, Daye, Summers & Jerebko.

While other are certainly free to think that Will Bynum is a better PG than Ben Gordon, if they wish … according to my Basketball Acumen, however, this is not the case.

hmmmm … there seems to be a problem leaving comments in this thread at present. Should I just keep trying, or give up?

Well … it seems that that comment just went through without a problem, perhaps, because it didn’t include any links. Hopefully, the other comment which I tried to leave in two different forms gets posted eventually after awaiting mederation. :-)

brgulker,

FWIW, the comment was intended as a reply to “brgulker” who was asking/looking for some statistical information pertaining to the play of Ben Gordon as a PG, in the NBA.

khandor, If the link goes through, I will look.

@khandor:
there seems to be a problem leaving comments in this thread at present. Should I just keep trying, or give up?

Definitely give up.

khandor,

But he still only has a 2 to 1 assist to To ratio! How is that good for a PG? It’s absolutely, unacceptably horrible! Yes, his assist totals are higher at PG, but so are his TO totals. So there’s no net gain there if you move him from SG to PG.

The only thing BG appears to do better at PG is score points (and potentially, he defends smaller PGs better than larger SGs). So, opposing PGs have a more difficult time stopping BG from scoring points, but they don’t have a difficult time forcing him to turn the ball over, and all the while, BG isn’t doing anything outstanding with respect to assists.

I just don’t see it.

brgulker,

re: the comment with the links

No luck yet.

Just to clarify for others … go to 82games.com and check the positional stats for Ben Gordon at the PG position, including those of his counterpart, for the 2006-2007, 2007-2008 and 2008-2009 seasons.

re: Gordon’s relatively “poor” AST:TO

Go to basketballreference.com and check the career AST:TO marks for [i] a HOF combo guard named Joe Dumars, and [ii] a HOF straight-up PG named Isiah Thomas.

Joe Dumars = 2.21
Isiah Thomas = 2.46

In comparison, what you should be able to see from the 82games.com site for Ben Gordon, when working at the PG position for the last 3 seasons in Chicago, are the following ratios:

2006-2007 = 2.94
2007-2008 = 2.96
2008-2009 = 3.32

brgulker,

Anytime you would like, please feel free to drop for a visit at my admittedly “rudimentary-looking” blog. What you’ll find is the work of someone who has a great of respect for the Pistons organization and, specifically the individuals associated with the original Bad Boyz of the NBA. :-)

Sorry … that should read as:

“… to drop by for a visit …”

Cheers

@khandor:
In comparison, what you should be able to see from the 82games.com site for Ben Gordon, when working at the PG position for the last 3 seasons in Chicago, are the following ratios:

Ben Gordon spent 3% of his PT at the point in the most recent season. That sample size is far too tiny to make any positive or negative case about Ben Gordon as a PG. If anything, the only thing that statistic proves is that any who cites it is out of their mind.

brgulker,

Please accept my apologies for the erroneous stats I posted earlier from 82games.com for BG’s AST:TO for the 2006-2007, 2007-2008 & 2008-2009 seasons, respectively … which should have read as:

2006-2007, 1.96
2007-2008, 1.86
2008-2009, 2.00

Not sure exactly what happened the first time I clicked on that site to produce the original numbers which I posted above, in error. [e.g. think the numbers may have been pulled from K-Hinrich’s files by mistake]

Mike Payne,

If Vinnie Del Negro happens not to be a good enough coach to see the benefits of using Ben Gordon as a PG for more than 3% of his team’s available floor time, last season … according to the good folks who run 82games.com … especially, when the Bulls also had a PG like Derrick Rose last season and another combo guard lke Kirk Hinrich … this doesn’t mean that a better coach with another team would choose to use BG in this same way for his team.

@khandor:
If Vinnie Del Negro happens not to be a good enough coach to see the benefits of using Ben Gordon as a PG for more than 3% of his team’s available floor time, last season … according to the good folks who run 82games.com … especially, when the Bulls also had a PG like Derrick Rose last season and another combo guard lke Kirk Hinrich … this doesn’t mean that a better coach with another team would choose to use BG in this same way for his team.

What? Can you carve that nonsense word salad down into less than one sentence? I have no idea what you’re trying to communicate.

Mike Payne,

Are you sure you really meant to say LESS THAN 1 sentence?

[condensed version :-) ]

Just because VDN only used Ben Gordon at the PG spot last season for 3% of the available PT does not mean that BG can’t play well at this position for the Pistons this season, working under John Kuester.

In the short stints that Gordon played PG for the Bulls he functioned as an effective Back-up player.

Khandor:

Stats (from last season):
http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/tiny.cgi?id=lgMMq

Summary:

Per 36 minutes, Bynum and Gordon put up very similar lines. Where they differ is Gordon shoots the 3 a lot better (which makes him a more efficient overall scorer), but Bynum racks up assists at a much higher rate, and is better at collecting steals (though that comes with being slightly more foul-prone).

IMO, looking at the stats, any objective comparison would conclude that Bynum is best served in his current role as the primary back-up PG (as he shows well above average passing and on-ball defense), and Gordon is best served in a role that takes advantage of his floor spacing ability as a killer 3 point threat (i.e. having the ball in Gordon’s hands 30 feet from the basket, and allowing the defense to focus on him as he tries to direct traffic and run a play, does not seem like the best use of his strengths).

Gabe,

re: “(i.e. having the ball in Gordon’s hands 30 feet from the basket, and allowing the defense to focus on him as he tries to direct traffic and run a play, does not seem like the best use of his strengths).”

There are different ways to use a player on offense, when he’s playing at the #1/PG position.

Personally, I would not choose to use BG like you’ve suggested in this quote.

e.g. using Gordon to exucute a Wing Entry Pass, followed by a UCLA cut, then Single-Double Action, then a Catch & Shoot, or a Shot Fake/Drive & Kick, or a Wing-to-Post Entry, or a Wing Pick & Roll/Pop Series, etc., is a much better option.

As I’ve said before … the problem with Will Bynum isn’t that he is somehow a “bad” PG. The problem for Will and the Pistons is simply that, given the specific personnel on this team, it’s a better fit if Detroit goes with a three-guard rotation this season, at the PG & OG positions, which will/should curtain his PT, in favour of players who are going to perform better than Will Bynum this coming season.

If the Pistons play as well as I think they are capable of playing this season, which means qualifying for the playoffs for the 9th consecutive year, it will be due in part to decisions like this one.

On the other hand, if the Pistons struggle to compete in the EC this season, IMO, it will be due, at least in part, to the lack of cohesion they experience when trying to “find minutes” for the host of players they now have at the PG, OG & SF positions.

Oh I get it, you’re a Ben Gordon fanboy. Do you prefer BG at the backup point over Will Bynum because of the way BG deforms defenses?

in favour of players who are going to perform better than Will Bynum this coming season.

Like who?

[not saying there aren’t better players on this team, but want to know specifically who you are referring to]

Dude, quit hating on MFWB. He is dope as hell and everyone who watches Piston’s game knows that. You don’t know much about the Pistons, obviously, if you think that Will Bynum is the reason they lost 20 more games this year than last. You are an ignorant idiot who keeps saying that “individual statistics don’t matter”, but we’ve thrown the +/- stat at you multiple times and you have ignored it. You can say crap about Kwame, about BG, about CV, about Deron Washington, any of the rookies…But you CANNOT say that Will Bynum caused the Pistons to lose games. He caused them to WIN them. (26 or 28 or w.e. 4th quarter comback WIN….he not only scored a hell of a lot in the 4th, but did so in bringing the Pistons to a win).

BG don’t stand for Ben Gordon, it stand for Baby Gangsta. That fool put in work.

And When you diss Will you diss yourself!

Mike Payne,

Primary 5-man units which the Pistons should use this season

Stuckey + Rip + Prince + B4 + B5
Stuckey + Gordon + Prince + B4 + B5
Gordon + Rip + Prince + B4 + B5

Stuckey + Rip + Washington + B4 + B5
Stuckey + Gordon + Washington + B4 + B5
Gordon + Rip + Washington + B4 + B5

Stuckey + Rip + Daye + B4 + B5
Stuckey + Gordon + Daye + B4 + B5
Gordon + Rip + Daye + B4 + B5

Stuckey + Rip + Summers + B4 + B5
Stuckey + Gordon + Summers + B4 + B5
Gordon + Rip + Summers + B4 + B5

Stuckey + Rip + Jerebkob + B4 + B5
Stuckey + Gordon + Jerebko + B4 + B5
Gordon + Rip + Jerebko + B4 + B5

Secondary 5-man units which the Pistons should use this season

Stuckey + Washington + Prince + B4 + B5
Stuckey + Washington + Daye + B4 + B5
Stuckey + Washington + Summers + B4 + B5
Stuckey + Washington + Jerebko + B4 + B5

Stuckey + Daye + Prince + B4 + B5
Stuckey + Daye + Summers + B4 + B5
Stuckey + Daye + Jerebko + B4 + B5

Gordon + Washington + Prince + B4 + B5
Gordon + Washington + Daye + B4 + B5
Gordon + Washington + Summers + B4 + B5
Gordon + Washington + Jerebko + B4 + B5

Gordon + Daye + Prince + B4 + B5
Gordon + Daye + Summers + B4 + B5
Gordon + Daye + Jerebko + B4 + B5

none of which include Will Bynum … but will allow their team to play with greater cohesiveness, while giving run to their solid young wings, keeping enough scoring, defense/rebounding, and size on the floor at all times to create mismatch opportunities for Detroit AND minimize mismatch opportunities for their opponents … especially, given the lack of size and the absence of a dominant Low Post presence from their front-court personnel.

IMO, if what Joe D. wants to do is:

1. Qualify for the EC Playoffs, for the 9th consecutive year;

AND,

2. Develop the Pistons solid, young, athletic, wing players … i.e. Washington, Daye, Summers and Jerebko

then he will influence John Kuester to limit the minutes which he gives to a solid Back-up PG, like Will Bynum happens to be, in favour of the Primary & Secondary 5-man unit combinations listed above.

[PLEASE NOTE: B4 + B5 – Maxiell or Villanueva or Wilcox or Brown or Wallace.]

===============

PS. IMO, if Michael Curry would have used a three-guard rotation at the PG position for last season’s Pistons team, once the Iverson trade was made … i.e.

Stuckey + Rip + Prince + B4 + B5
Stuckey + Iverson + Prince + B4 + B5
Iverson + Rip + Afflalo + B4 + B5
Stuckey + RiP + Prince + B4 + B5
Stuckey + Iverson + Prince + B4 + B5
Iverson + RiP + Afflalo + B4 + B5
Stuckey + Rip + Prince + B4 + B5
etc.

with B4 + B5 = some combination of Maxiell/4, Johnson/4, McDyess/4-5, Wallace/4-5 and Brown/5

… he [Curry] would still be the Pistons’ coach today, as Detroit would have finished in the #4-5 playoff position, won its 1st Round series, and given Cleveland a terrific battle in the EC semi-finals.

Hopefully John Kuester is smart enough and has enough Basketball Acumen to understand where the strengths of his players actually are and the ability to minimize their weaknesses.

Khandor:

sigh You’ve been exceedingly polite, which is much appreciated, but why do you care?

You’re also 100% wrong with your last point- In fact, Curry did almost exactly what you think he should have done: he tried forcing way too many minutes onto just Stuck/Rip/AI (and not playing Bynum at all) and the results were disastrous.

You still haven’t explained why if (in your opinion) Bynum was so harmful to last years team did he have the second best raw +/- on the team?

source:
http://www.82games.com/0809/08DET2.HTM#onoff

Also, I don’t know why you keep insisting that playing Bynum will hurt the teams rebounding and defense- his rebound rate is exactly the same as Gordon and Rip’s, and he collects more steals than either of them (obviously not a perfect indicator of defense, but still, steals aren’t meaningless).

Also, Bynum is a very natural fit in a backcourt with Rip- and playing Bynum creates the easiest, and IMO best guard rotation:

Stuck/Rip start. Gordon subs in for Rip about halfway through the 1st quarter. Then about 4-6 minutes into the 2nd quarter Rip comes back in for Gordon, and Bynum comes in for Stuck.

In the second half, the same rotation can be used, for the 3rd and beginning of the 4th quarter. Then whatever the “finishing” backcourt that Kuester decides on can be on the court for the last 6 minutes of the 4th.

@khandor:
you never answered my question:

in favour of players who are going to perform better than Will Bynum this coming season.

Like who?

Hint: just list names.

Mike Payne,

Rodney Stuckey

and

Ben Gordon, at the PG position,

are going to have better seasons for the Pistons this year than Will Bynum,

if given the opportunity, by John Kuester, to play in a three-guard rotation along with Rip Hamilton

… with Prince, Washington, Daye, Summers & Jerebko working at #3/SF spot, and Washington & Daye, picking up loose-change minutes at the #2/OG spot, in relief of Rip & Gordon.

IMO …

Stuckey, PG-OG
Gordon, OG-PG
Hamilton, OG
Prince, SF-OG-PG-PF
Washington, SF-OG
Daye, SF-OG
Summers, SF
Jerebko, SF

are all better NBA players than Will Bynum.

Gabe,

1. Look closely at what you wrote.

2. Then, look closely at what I wrote, concerning last year’s Pistons’ line-ups.

I do not believe that I have the line-up of:

Stuckey + Iverson + Hamilton

listed anywhere in what I’ve written.

IMO, it would absolutely be CORRECT to say that ONE of the reasons Michael Curry failed last season with Detroit is because he MADE THE MISTAKE of trying to play that threesome together.

The NBA game is NOT about creating “natural fits” with specific players.

The NBA game is about:

1. Creating and then taking advantage of mismatch opportunities for your team, based on the personnel at-hand; while, simultaneously,

2. Minimizing the opponent’s mismatch opportunities versus your team, based on the personnel at-hand.

re: Why do I care?

Understanding how “the game” works is, in fact, what I happen to do, each and every day of the year. :-)

For the benefit of the stat-heads …

IMO, an individual player’s “raw +/-” score, as a relative measure, actually means almost next-to-nothing, if/when that team’s Total Wins drops from 59 to 39 in this same season.

@khandor:
Stuckey, PG-OG
Gordon, OG-PG
Hamilton, OG
Prince, SF-OG-PG-PF
Washington, SF-OG
Daye, SF-OG
Summers, SF
Jerebko, SF

are all better NBA players than Will Bynum.

Thank you, that’s all I wanted to hear. May the record show that Khandor is out of his skull.

@khandor:
IMO, an individual player’s "raw +/-" score, as a relative measure, actually means almost next-to-nothing, if/when that team’s Total Wins drops from 59 to 39 in this same season.

Talking in circles, huh? I repeat.

Khandor:

Okay, then what “means something?” If you can just arbitrarily decide that objective evidence of a players effectiveness “means almost next-to-nothing” then it’s pretty much useless having a debate with you.

How about this:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/tiny.cgi?id=a8MVb

Bynum had the highest PER among Stuck/Rip/Gordon last season (is that “almost meaningless?”), he had by far the highest assist rate (meaningless?), the highest steal rate (meaningless?), the second highest rebound rate (meaningless?), his individual statistics suggest he’s just as effective a player as Stuck/Rip/Gordon, and he put up those stats while OBJECTIVELY HELPING THE TEAM WHILE HE WAS ON THE COURT.

That’s what raw +/- is: a record of what happened when the player was on the court vs. when he was off (i.e., like all stats, it is an objective measure of what actually happened during the game).

Basically your argument has broken down to this:

Stuckey/Gordon will be better than Bynum because that’s what I think and I don’t need to explain my position or back it up with facts. When faced with contradictory evidence I will simply label said evidence “meaningless,” and continue on as if I am unquestionably correct.

LOL- if you actually think DaJuan Summers is currently a better NBA player than Will Bynum… have you ever actually watched a game of basketball?

That’s one of the silliest things I’ve ever read- Bynum had a better statistical season last year (IN THE NBA!) than Summers had as a junior in college.

The Pistons were -20 in the Win column last season, compared to 2007-2008, with several of their key players sliding backwards in their performance “numbers”.

Will Bynum on the other hand, as a PG, had individual numbers which were positive.

Hmmm … let me see, What might be meaningful in that?

The style of play that was used in Detroit last season was consisent with a way in which a player of Will Bynum’s skill-set can succeed; while the team, on the whole, and several of its key players, individually, lost 20 games in the Win column.

Pistons fans who would LIKE to see more of what happened last season with their team … i.e. Will succeeding while the team drops further in the standings … should most defintely be hoping that he is used in a similar way this time around.

On the other hand, Pistons fans who know that Chauncey has most definitely ‘left the building’ should be hoping that John Kuester knows how to use the array of talented wing players Joe D. has assembled on this year’s team, and the two 2 PG’s who would give this group the most cohesion and maximize the mismatch opportunities presented for their different 5-man units, while minimizing their own vulnerability in this regard.

re: Will Bynum vs Detroit’s other PG’s, OG’s & SF’s

Time will tell if I’m right or wrong.

For the Pistons sake, I hope that I’m right. :-)

khandor, you are STILL a dumb-ass.

@ khandor:

As I just wrote, you are a dumb-ass. Allow me to demonstrate why, by breaking down your "argument."

1. "Will Bynum is short." This is TRUE.

2. "Because Will Bynum is short, he is a bad point guard." This is FALSE.

3. "Even though statistics and observation say otherwise, Will Bynum is a bad point guard, even as a backup" EXTREMELY FALSE.

4. "If a basketball team declines in performance from one year to the next, it is the backup point guard’s fault. The starting point guard, the rest of the players, and the coaching staff are not to blame." INSANE.

5. "Even though the Bulls organization played Ben Gordon an average of one minute per game at the point guard position, he is a point guard." WRONG.

6. "Will Bynum will be the worst Pistons player this season, even though their 2009-2010 roster includes four rookies and two journeyman big men." STUPID.

7. "One of those rookies, Deron Washington, will spend more years with the Pistons organization than Will Bynum. This is because Washington’s potential as a defender is greater than Bynum’s actual NBA performance." BIZARRE.

8. "The other three Pistons rookies are also better players than Will Bynum, even though they have a total of zero minutes of NBA game experience." HUH?

9. "In the game of basketball, height is advantageous, because it creates ‘mismatches.’ Austin Daye is very tall. He can also shoot. Therefore, he would be an excellent backup shooting guard." RE-TAR-DED.

10. "Tayshaun Prince is the most versatile basketball player since Magic Johnson. He can play every position except center." YOUR BRAIN IS BROKEN. GET AN M.R.I.

PS: +++++++++ a lot

Khandor:

You have seem to have reading comprehension problems. I very clearly illustrated that not only were Bynum’s individual stats as good or better than Stuck, Rip, or Gordon’s, but he also had a better raw +/- than any of them.

Your “argument” seems to be; because the pistons were bad last year, they shouldn’t do anything they did last year. Here’s the rub, when Bynum was on the court we had an average differential of +3, which is the equivalent of your team playing .600 ball (i.e. a roughly 50 win team). Bynum was not the problem.

Here’s the other hole in your argument:
http://www.82games.com/0809/08CHI5.HTM#pstats
http://www.82games.com/0809/08DET7.HTM#pstats

That’s Gordon and Rip’s shot distribution from last season: 80% of Gordon’s shots were jumpers, and 84% of Rip’s shots were jumpers… Does that seem like a backcourt that makes sense?

That’s why it’s perfectly logical to pair Bynum with Rip when Stuck needs a rest, because it gives our offense balance by keeping a legit driving threat in the game, not to mention Bynum is a much better on-ball defender than Gordon; so it’s actually an advantage both offensively and defensively.

does khandor really have a lineup with Daye at SG and one of the rooks at SF, before he has Will Bynum ANYWHERE? Can there please be a block button?

@ Cody:

See this brilliant post by khandor. The lineups are: Stuckey or Gordon at PG, Daye at SG, and Summers or Jerebko at SF. (He would also permit Prince to play SF in this configuration.)

And don’t forget khandor’s insightful frontcourt scheme, “B4 + B5.” Apparently any combination of two big men will do, as long as Will Bynum is “chained to the bench.” MORON.

That same post includes this Einstein-esque hypothetical:

IMO, if Michael Curry would have [never played Will Bynum]…he would still be the Pistons’ coach today, as Detroit would have finished in the #4-5 playoff position, won its 1st Round series, and given Cleveland a terrific battle in the EC semi-finals.

Hopefully John Kuester is smart enough and has enough Basketball Acumen to understand where the strengths of his players actually are and the ability to minimize their weaknesses.

According to khandor, Will Bynum singlehandedly cost Michael Curry his job. Not “smallball,” not the Prince-as-PF experiment, not his inability to figure out a consistent rotation, and not his complete incompetence as a playcaller on offense and defense. It was all Will Bynum’s fault. IDIOTIC.

PS,

First.

It is really too bad for the position you are taking here that I didn’t actually write any of the things which you alluded to in your comments. :-)

Second.

It will be very intresting to see how the Pistons year plays out with the configuration of their current roster.

As I’ve said before … Time will tell if my opinions about these players are right, or wrong.

8 months from today … OTHERS will have a much better idea whether or not they understand how the NBA game works better than I do.

Hopefully John Kuester makes the right decisions to bring about success for his team.

Cheers

Gabe,

I did not say that “the Pistons should not do ANYTHING they did last season.”

I identified specifically what it is the Pistons should NOT do again from last season; and, specifically, what the Pistons should do differently this year based on the personnel they have at present.

It’s important to be specific when you’re dealing with the game of basketball.

Cheers

@khandor:
You might just be the worst thing to happen to DBB all summer. Notice how everyone here disagrees with you? You might want to find a different site to post on. And a shrink.

No shrink necessary. I recommend that you quit DBB cold turkey.

I was wondering when somebody would hit up DBB and start stirring the shit. It’s been pretty quiet. I figured dude would wait until the actual season started first, but there he goes.

Seriously, though. If he was a Piston’s hater and made some solid points, i wouldn’t mind it. Almost none of his points make sense, at all. I would quote some of them, but there are a million and it would take me all night, and i’m tired. Khandor, do me a favor, and call yourself a dumbass. We’re all tired of it.

“@khandor:
You might just be the worst thing to happen to DBB all summer.”

might? summer? lol

@khandor:
You might just be the worst thing to happen to DBB all summer.

Personally I’m really looking forward to MFWB dropping 25 and 7 next season and posting:

“BEN GORDON IS A BETTER PG THAN WILL BYNUM BECAUSE HEZ TALLER

/khandor’d"

If Will Bynum “drops 25 & 7” this season but the Pistons win just 39 games again this season … and, this time, fail to make the EC playoffs …

THAT would make you “happy”, as a Detroit fan?

in comparison with,

Will Bynum being excluded from the Pistons three-guard rotation at the PG and OG positions … i.e. by using Stuckey, Rip & Gordon, almost exclusively; and, working “loose change minutes” for Washington & Daye … but Detroit winning more than enough games to earn a playoff spot in the EC?

If so, then … so be it.

For me, personally, however, I hold Joe Dumars in more esteem than THAT.

@khandor:
I hate you.

Love,
Mike Payne.

Khandor:

Meet Petey:
http://www.detroitbadboys.com/archives/2009-01-12/rip-to-the-bench-that-aint-happening/#comment-161163

You guys should get together, you have a lot in common.

@Gabe:
That’s not a fair comparison. At least Petey’s opinions were remotely based on statistics, facts, reasoned analysis. He was wrong most of the time (and a douche), but at least he reasoned well.

Khandor, however, is just completely brainless, sticking to a hard-headed talking point that has no basis in statistical fact. It’s like MFWB stole his lunch money as a kid or something.

@ khandor:

1. Your latest hypothetical relies on the same assumption as most of your other posts—that Will Bynum AND ONLY Will Bynum caused Detroit’s decline last season. Not the loss of Billups, not the acquisition of AI, not Dyess’s 30-day absence, not the smallball experiment, not Curry’s many other incomprehensible coaching decisions, not Sheed’s physical decline (and possibly Prince’s), not Stuckey’s collision with what amounted to the “rookie wall” (given the injury that caused his inactivation most of the previous season), not Maxiell’s seeming regression…but Will Bynum AND ONLY Will Bynum.

2. As I noted above, statistics and observation contradict your principal assumption. Will Bynum is indeed a good backup PG, on both offense and defense.

3. It is not rational to assume that any of the rookies will be any better this year than Bynum has already proven himself to be. Plus, none of the rookies are PGs, so they are not substitutable for Bynum in any meaningful sense. There is still a place for Bynum in Detroit’s rotation, whether he gets 5 minutes per game, 12 minutes, or even more minutes on occasion (when one of the starters or Gordon is injured, or is playing poorly).

4. It may be that Gordon will play minutes at both guard positions, in a backcourt scheme that could resemble the old Bad Boys three-guard rotation, but that also does not mean that Gordon is a PG in any meaningful sense, and is therefore suited to fill the role Bynum occupied last year. Again, there is still a place for Bynum in Detroit’s rotation.

5. Even if your assumption (which seems to boil down to “Will Bynum is a bad player because he is short…and he will never be Isiah Thomas’s equal”) proves to be correct—a highly unlikely scenario, given the evidence provided by statistics and observation—there is no reason to believe that Pistons fans would want to see Bynum elevated at the cost of the team’s success. You have been posting on a Pistons site, not a Will Bynum fanpage. DBBers and I disagree with you because your contentions, however cordially stated, are demonstrably wrong, not because we want to slob down Will Bynum. (You must have us confused with AI’s fanboys.) Even when you’re not writing about Will Bynum, you’re usually wrong. It’s just that your Bynum arguments are the most ridiculous and non-reality-based.

6. You still suck.

7. Eat me.

MP:

True, true, Petey was hilariously wrong most of the time, but it was all basically stemming out from his bedrock belief that AI is a superstar player. Khandor is a stranger, less easily understood creature.

I guess the main similarity that I saw between them is they both came onto DBB admitting to not being Pistons fans (which basically means there’s no way they’ve watched as much Pistons as anyone here), then proceeded to claim they knew better than anyone else what the Pistons should do.

PS: +1

That post is a thing of beauty.

@Gabe:
I guess the main similarity that I saw between them is they both came onto DBB admitting to not being Pistons fans (which basically means there’s no way they’ve watched as much Pistons as anyone here), then proceeded to claim they knew better than anyone else what the Pistons should do.

Totally understood, you’re absolutely right.

@PS:
+ a bagillion.

Sadly, Khandor will ignore your reasoned points and continue to repeat his nonsense.

@ khandor:

8. Even when you delve (however shallowly) into statistics to assess Bynum’s performance, you focus on numbers that do not capture his actual value. He is not a particularly proficient rebounder, and he is a relatively poor perimeter shooter. You probably have height-related explanations for both of these facts. However, he is a good bench scorer, a capable distributor, and an excellent defender at the PG position—all of which are things that any team can use from a backup PG.

9. Since you insist on Pistons-centric player comparisons: nobody at DBB considers Bynum to be the next Isiah Thomas. However, many are convinced that he is more effective than Lindsey Hunter, another “undersized” PG who was a key bench contributor for a championship team (actually, two, including LA some years before).

10. By himself, Will Bynum cannot lead the Pistons to a championship, but he can help the team as a backup PG, and he certainly will not be to blame if the Pistons have another bad year (or years).

@ MP and Gabe:

Internationally-recognized genius and skilled Pistons observer “khandor” projects Jason Maxiell to start at PF for Detroit next year, over free-agent acquisition Charlie Villanueva.

http://khandorssportsblog.com/wordpress/2009/09/08/how-the-eastern-conference-looks-for-09-10-based-on-individual-player-ratings-by-position/

This should be taken into account when assessing khandor’s expert status. On the other hand, he also gave us the following frontcourt rotation formula, which can only be described as brilliant in its simplicity:

“B4 + B5”

@ khandor:

Eat a mean one.

Mike Payne,

That’s okay; I don’t hate you. :-)

It’s hilarious to read that some people here think that because they happen to be “Pistons” this means that they see more Pistons’ games and therefore must know what’s best for this team, in comparison with someone else who MAY:

• Watch more basketball than they do
• Be more knowledgeable about basketball than they are
• Not need to justify his opinions with “statistical averages”, etc., that have less meanging in the NBA environment than do Wins, Losses and Individual Player Match-ups.

Those who NEED this type of “statistical/factual” information to confirm what they can’t see accurately with their own eyes, are beyond being helped by someone like me.

Imagine saying something like this:

When Will Bynum drops “27 & 5” vs Chauncey Billups & the Nuggets but Denver wins the game on the back of two key 3’s by Mr. Big Shot, and the type of solid all-around game that sees his teammates finish with a number of “positive individual +/- scores”, either:

• in addition to his own; or,
• at the expense of his own +/- score;

that will be okay … because Will is a better PG than C-Bills, according to the factual information contained in his “stat averages”.

LOL, :-)

Here’s a simple question for some of the Pistons fans on this site to consider.

What type of line-up has more cohesion in the NBA … a three-guard rotation at the PG & OG positions? Or, a four-guard rotation?

It’s a plain enough question with a Right vs a Wrong answer. :-)

@khandor:
1. We watch more PISTONS basketball than you do.
2. Most of the commenters here are clearly more knowledgeable about basketball than you.
3. On court performance, as measured by statistics, determines wins/losses and shows the results of individual player matchups.

Those who NEED this type of "statistical/factual" information to confirm what they can’t see accurately with their own eyes, are beyond being helped by someone like me.

On DetroitBadBoys.com, this community lets NO ONE make a claim without reasoned analysis. Statistics is the most objective way of doing so.

This community is smarter than you. The commenters here are smarter than you. The comments here are smarter than anything you write on your blog. And by and large, the community here is smart enough to provide objective reasoning for their claims, which earns collective respect.

As you can clearly see above, you have none of our respect.

re: Maxiell vs Villanueva as a starting PF for the Pistons

Here’s another simple question for some of the Pistons fan here to consider:

If Chuck Daly [or Phil Jackson, or Pat Riley, or KC Jones, or Bill Sharman, or Red Holtzman, or Red Auerbach, etc.] was the coach of this year’s Detroit Pistons team … Do you think that HE would choose to start Charlie V or Jason Maxiell at PF?

A plain show of hands will do.

Mike Payne,

Are you the owner/operator of this site?

@ khandor:

You are a complete dumb-ass. Now, on to your dumb-ass questions:

1. It is ridiculous to suggest that either three-guard rotation or a four-guard rotation is more “cohesive” or “right/wrong.” It depends on the players. If your roster includes Magic Johnson and Michael Jordan, you’re probably best off playing both MJs upwards of 40 mpg. I guess that’s a “two-guard rotation.” DUMB-ASS.

2. Your coaching hypothetical is equally ridiculous. Most of the coaches on your list are DEAD, and the NBA game has changed a great deal since they left the profession. And Pat Riley’s teams have played very different styles, mainly for roster-related reasons. Let’s examine the actual living NBA coaches that Jason Maxiell has played for. Under Flip Saunders, Maxiell started 15 games in three years. Under Michael Curry, Maxiell started 4 games in one year. That’s not a coincidence. Maxiell is a wonderful energy player and bench defender. He is not a starting-caliber PF, according to two NBA coaches, one of whom is generally considered to be a good coach.

Khandor:

sigh You’re so bizarrely and insistently wrong on so many different topics it’s hard to choose which point to refute. But I’ll start with this one:

“What type of line-up has more cohesion in the NBA … a three-guard rotation at the PG & OG positions? Or, a four-guard rotation?”

You imply the obvious answer is the three-guard line-up. And you’re wrong.

Exhibit A:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DEN/2009.html

Denver played Billups 35 mpg’s, JR Smith 28 mpg’s, Anthony Carter 19 mpg’s, and Dahntay Jones 18 mpg’s.

With our guard rotation, that can easily be reconfigured into something like: Stuck 28-30 mpg’s, Rip 28 mpg’s, Gordon 26-30 mpg’s, Bynum 12 mpg’s.

The Gordon/Rip backcourt would be out there for about 6 minutes per game, and the main combinations would be Stuck/Gordon and Bynum/Rip. That gives our backcourt a maximum balance of driving and 3 point shooting.

minor correction Anthony Carter played 23 mpg’s for Denver. So, ummm, yeah, a four-guard rotation worked just fine for Denver.

PS,

Are you comparing sitting Maxiell behind Rasheed & McDyess … which Flip Saunders did as the Pistons coach … to be the equivalent of having Jason play behind Charlie Villanueva this season?

If so, then, that speaks volumes, right there.

re: three-guard vs four-guard rotations in the NBA

If the hypothetical back-court rotation was:

OPTION ONE/Three-guard – Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan and Joe Dumars

vs

OPTION TWO/Four-guard – Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, Joe Dumars and Isiah Thomas

which one do YOU think would score higher on the “Team Cohesion” Scale?

If you happen to believe that it’s OPTION TWO, then, as I’ve said already, there’s not much that I can do to help your understanding of the NBA game … unless, of course, you are willing to entertain the thought that there might actually be someone who knows more about how the game works here than you do yourself.

re: those named coaches somehow being something other than elite because they no longer coach in today’s NBA

LOL, :-)

MCIAFI > khandor

Regarding the guard-rotation question, Gabe said it better than I could. What I meant to illustrate with my Magic+Jordan hypothetical is that NBA team success cannot be reliably correlated with the number of guards who play significant minutes.

If you have a HOF-caliber guard, he will probably play as many minutes as he’s physically able. If you have four or five decent-but-not-outstanding guards, they will probably split the minutes more evenly, to give their team the “matchup” advantage of energy (if not excellent basketball skill).

Now, you’re more likely to win a championship if you have a truly great guard on your team—or a great SF, a great PF, a great C, etc—and give that great player lots of minutes. But what this shows is that, all things being equal (which they never are in the NBA, or in real life), it’s preferable to play your best players for the most minutes, up to a point of diminishing returns that must be different for each individual player (and for each game situation…see how coaches shorten their rotations in the playoffs, or in close games).

There is no magic formula, like “play only three guards and win big!” To suggest otherwise is a reliable indicator that you, khandor, are a genuine DUMB-ASS.

Mike Payne,

Are you the owner/operator of this site?

MP is letting you in on a bit of info that, if followed, can help you lead to a more enjoyable experience here on DBB. My comment here is in reference to exactly what MP is talking about. It’s not a rule, simply the effect to a cause. You say shit like “Bynum and McDyess playing big minutes is the reason the Pistons lost so many games last year,” especially without any quantifiable arguments, and the internets will explode on you.

re: Billups, Carter, Smith & Jones with the Nuggets

The proper questions to ask in that instance would be:

#1. Do you think any three 3 of …

Billups + Carter + Smith + Jones

equates with the threesome of …

Stuckey [PG], Rip [OG] & Gordon [PG-OG]?

If you do, then, that speaks volumes right there.

#2. Do you think that the four-guard rotation of:

Billups + Carter + Smith + Jones

is somehow going to score higher on the Team Cohesion Scale than a three-guard rotation of:

A. Billups + Jones + Smith;

or,

B. Billups + Jones + Carter;

If you do, then, that speaks volumes right there, as well.

1. I agree that starting Sheed and Dyess over Maxiell was a wise decision. But even Amir Johnson started over Maxiell. MC may be AFA, but it is certainly possible that he and Flip were correct to play Maxiell off the bench.

2. Magic, MJ, and Dumars would be a great three-guard rotation. Magic, MJ, Dumars, and Isiah would be a great four-guard rotation. Why did you list Isiah last? Do you consider him to be the worst player of the four? If so, why? (Is it because he’s the shortest?) Why would your hypothetical team chain Isiah to the bench? Could Isiah contribute nothing on offense or defense?

3. I agree that all of the coaches you listed, from Daly on down, were or presently are elite. However, this is completely unrelated to whether Maxiell or Villanueva is a better starting PF in today’s NBA. Neither player has started 70+ games per year, like the HOF players you mentioned above. However, Villanueva has performed well as a part-time starter, while Maxiell has started only as an injury replacement. Surely this fact means something. It is also meaningful that Dumars, in his capacity as Pistons GM, signed Villanueva with the intention of starting him. There is no reason to believe that Dumars or Kuester will use Maxiell as a starter. Why, then, does your “Eastern Conference preview” project Maxiell to be the Piston’s starting PF?

Even your hypotheticals are bizarre and wrong.

PS,

You need to read more carefully and stop inferring “your thoughts” about something which I’ve written onto me.

e.g. I did not say anywhere that “the number of guards used in a team’s rotation is ‘The Key’ to success in the NBA.” Did I?

Reading comprehension skills are a vital ingredient when using the internet effectively.

PS,

Do you even understand what the concept of Team Cohesion is?

PS,

Please show me a link to where Joe Dumars has said in a quote that he signed Charlie Villanueva with the intention that he [Charlie] be used as a starting PF for the Pistons this season?

Thanks, in advance.

@ khandor:

1. I will try to read more carefully, if you agree to think more carefully.

2. Please enlighten me. What is Team Cohesion? And while you’re at it, please explain why you capitalize your Nouns and Nearby Adjectives. Are you mentally translating your Writings from the Original German? Are you a Complete Dumb-Ass?

Well judging by your posts, apparently the key to cohesion is to use as many line breaks to a post as possible. So that’s what we need to do, get more line breaks.

Shinons,

Trust that I have no worry, whatsoever, about “the internets exploding on me.” :-)

The Lakers used a four guard rotation this year: Fisher, Kobe, Shannon Brown, and Jordon Farmar

The Celtics used a four guard rotation in 07-08: Rondo, Allen, Cassel, and House

The Spurs used a four guard rotation in each of their titles: Parker, Manu, Finley, Barry, Udrih, Stephen Jackson, and Speedy Claxon

The Pistons used a four guard in their 2004 title: Billups, Hamilton, James, and Hunter

OMG, THE KEY TO WINNING DA TITLE IZ NOT HAVING COHEZON!!!!!

@ khandor:

Well, Dumars certainly didn’t promise to start Maxiell. The only players who have been announced publicly as starters are Stuckey and Hamilton.

5 smartest basketball analysts:

1. Khandor
2. Dean Oliver
3. John Hollinger
4. Roland Beech
5. Dave Berri

Khandor doesn’t watch basketball games, he FEELS them.

I always get a kick out of people like Khandor who say things that amount to:
“u dumbz0rr stat nurrdz don’t evn wtach teh gamezz!”

But then they just make up their own stats; like what guard rotation would “score higher on the Team Cohesion Scale (!)…”

On some level, the Khandor’s of the world realize stats are important, they just can’t bother to learn how so.

Khandor- I don’t know, or particularly care, why you think you know the game of basketball so well, but from your comments it’s pretty clear you’ve got a lot yet to learn. But, we’d all greatly appreciate it if you’d do that learning somewhere else.

Mike Payne,

Next time I am exchanging thoughts and ideas about the game with one of those other NBA analysts, I’ll be sure to pass along your best wishes.

re: Khandor doesn’t watch basketball games, he FEELS them.

LOL.

re: no promise from Dumars to start Maxiell

Agreed. I have yet to read any quote from Joe D. about something like this. In fact, given who Joe D. is, it would be out of character for him to make this type of decision for John Kuester.

Previously unseen footage of khandor FEELING (not watching) a basketball game:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBsiPSUlPVQ

Next time I am exchanging thoughts and ideas about the game with one of those other NBA analysts, I’ll be sure to pass along your best wishes.

Khandor doesn’t TALK to those other NBA analysts, he communicates with them telepathically.

Shinons,

I won’t take the time to go through each of the teams you’ve listed above but, IMO …

if Larry Brown would have had a player like Ben Gordon, on his championship team with Detroit, in addition to Chauncey & Rip, neither Hunter nor James would have seen extensive floor time, in favour of a more economical & effective three-guard rotation which enhances Team Cohesion.

I’m going to set the over/under for Number of Pistons Game Watched by khandor in the 2008-09 Season at 2.5.

And I’ll take the under.

Team Cohesion is the new Deform the Defense.

Shinons,

I will take you up on that specific wager.

For how much would you like to make the bet?

e.g. $100, $1000, $10,000, etc.?

You can go ahead and name the exact amount. :-)

@ lack of candor
I won’t take the time to go through each of the teams you’ve listed above but,

You keep taken hits as far as credibility. how can you present an argument if you cant even aknowledge the very valid points of others. the only reason you are getting so much burn on DBB right now is because evryone is bored. otherwise you would have been ignored/laughed into oblivion. dont leave untill training camp starts. I appreciate the entertainment.

I’LL BET YOU A GAZILLION OF MY POKWER DOLLARS ON ESPN!!!!

douche.

@shinons:
khandor will watch every pistons game this season. wearing nothing but socks. pleasuring himself to the moving pictures of ben gordon.

Shinons, the Pistons played the Raptors three times last season, so you should have set the O/U at 3.5.

On the other hand, maybe khandor was so put off by Will Bynum’s relatively short stature that he couldn’t watch ANY Pistons-Raptors games.

khandor is so stupid that when the raptors play the Pistons he will sit on the tv and watch the couch

Please, everyone check this out!!! It’s Khandor’s proprietary super powered statistical computational algorithmic advanced metric that explains rebounding:

http://khandorssportsblog.wordpress.com/2008/12/19/the-reason-the-raptors-cannot-rebound-the-ball/

It’s so simple I don’t know how I never thought of it! Who knew that team rebounding can be completely summarized simply by listing:
“++” rebounders, “+” guys, “0’s,” or “-” rebounders!

Wow. You just can’t beat this analysis:

“A good Rebounding team in the NBA needs to have at least three 3 "+" Rebounders on the court at all times.” -Khandor

Thanks Khandor! You know so much more about basketball than anyone I’ve ever e-known or e-met.

@MP
khandor will watch every pistons game this season. wearing nothing but socks. pleasuring himself to the moving pictures of ben gordon.

That explains his obsession with cohesiveness…

@PS
Shinons, the Pistons played the Raptors three times last season, so you should have set the O/U at 3.5.

Oooooh, I also should have made sure to mention that NBA Live ‘09 doesn’t count either!@!

I’m sure khandor’s blog has seen an uptick in traffic since he started deforming dbb, but has anyone else seen the player rating by position charts? The player ranking chart is awesome. Troy Murphy is the 4th best pf in the east. Elton brand is the 14th best! I can’t wait for your western conference break down khandor!