Who is the Greatest Player of All-Time?
by Packey on Sep 14, 2009 3:05 PM CDT
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Last Friday, Michael Jordan, who many concede is the greatest to ever step foot on the hardwood floor in the NBA, was inducted into the Hall of Fame.
Some have questioned Jordan's personality and thus, naturally, some are quick to criticize when they can, but I never thought many people would argue that he's not the best basketball player ever.
I could list off all his accolades, but that would just be tiresome and redundant. Everyone knows what he has accomplished throughout his storied career and for the greater part of the past two decades, I'd say the majority of people believe he is the best, bar none.
Not in everyone's mind, though.
Pistons beat writer, Keith Langlois thinks former Spartan, Magic Johnson, is the best of all-time and he makes a pretty compelling argument:
The five titles Johnson won all came during the era I consider the most competitive in NBA history. By the time Jordan’s Bulls were dominating the ’90s, there wasn’t another team I considered on a par with the Celtics, Lakers or Pistons of the ’80s. If the best teams Magic’s Lakers had to face in the ’80s were the likes of Utah or Houston or Phoenix that Michael’s Bulls had to beat in the ’90s for their titles, the Lakers might have won eight or nine out of 10. I also include their college careers when considering their greatness, and Magic Johnson was a dominant college player from the moment he stepped on the court as a freshman. I think it’s possible that LeBron James could challenge Magic and Michael before his career is over, but he’s going to have to win multiple titles in order to work his way into serious conversation among the masses.
This is obviously an argument basketball fans have quibbled over for years since the likes of Jordan and Johnson retired, and especially since Kobe and Lebron entered the league, but it's a discussion we haven't had within this community.
Therefore, I wanted to hear what everyone thinks on who the best player of all-time is. Is it Jordan hands down? Are you with Keith Langlois and believe it's Johnson? Is it Lebron despite the fact he has no rings? How about Kobe, now that he's shown he can win a title without Shaq? Or is it John Crotty because he's your favorite left-handed former-Piston?
Obviously everyone is entitled to their opinion, so take a pick and make your arguments in the comments. Just know, if you actually try to make an argument for John Crotty, you're opening yourself up to a world of ridicule.
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An impossible argument
I’ve concluded that this is an impossible argument to have for one simple reason:
The game changes over time.
I think it’s a much more enjoyable conversation to have if we simply talk about players who were the best players of their era (where era is defined as when those players were at their best, or something like that).
Magic Johnson was arguably the greatest player of the 80’s. MJ was the greatest player of the 90’s. I’m not sure who we’d select for 00-09, Tim Duncan? Each of those guys was just a little bit better than the rest of their peers … but to go beyond that, well, there are just too many variables to compare fairly.
As an example that we Pistons fans can understand well, think about how the Bad Boys played defense and compare that to how defense is played now (heck, you can make the case that defense isn’t played the same way it was when we won in ’04, let alone the Bad Boy era).
You can’t judge the past by contemporary standards, and vice-versa. It’s comparing apples to oranges.
But, what I think I can say confidently is that I don’t think MJ is far and away, hands down the best player to have ever played. He was the best player I’ve ever seen; no one has approached his airness in my lifetime — but that’s not to say players who came before him didn’t dominate their competition the way he dominated his.
Examples:
Wilt Chamberlain scored 100 points by himself in a single game … on multiple occasions. Bill Russell won how many championships? Nine? Abdul-Jabaar is a guy who gets overshadowed by Magic — but would Magic have done what he did without him? It’s impossible to say.
Not to mention that players are, in some ways, limited by their competition, and you can’t fault guys for that. You can’t fault Chamberlain for being the only dominant 7-footer of his era, just like you can’t fault LeBron James for being a freakish athlete who can run through and/or jump over anyone else on the floor.
Not to mention (again) that what we’ve learned about our bodies biologically is enhancing the game — because athletes are becoming better athletes! Think about something that we young’uns take for granted as a staple of athletics: weight training. Then think about how long guys have been doing that as part of their routine to become better players — that’s an entirely contemporary concept, because 50 years ago, we didn’t know what we know now about the human body.
Anyway, that’s how I think the debate should work itself out. Compare players to their peers and judge them by what basketball was when they were playing. It’s the only way that I can see to add any objective measures to an otherwise purely subjective conversation.
by brgulker on Sep 14, 2009 3:49 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Well you sucked the fun right out of that
But honestly, I appreciate the straight forward response. I agree there are tons of variables making nobody really right or wrong, but don’t you think Jordan would have dropped 30 a night, no matter the era? As that Yahoo article says, Jordan thrived off of people doubting him and the pure satisfaction of beating people — I think he would have been just as great and stood out just as much, no matter the era. Obviously, as you allude to, lots of coulds, woulds, shoulds, etc. so yeah it’s completely subjective.
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by Packey on Sep 14, 2009 7:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jordon would have stood out in any of the eras before him, obviously, but is it fair to credit that to just him?
If you look back at the history of basketball, you see the game evolving, players getting better from generation to generation, athletes becoming more athletic, etc., etc. What I’m getting at is this: Current generations owe what they are now to past generations.
Would MJ have been MJ without Dr. J? Would CP3 be CP3 without Zeke? Would LBJ be LBJ without MJ?
It’s easy for us to look at players of the present and recent past and say, “Wow, no one has EVER been as good as MJ.” We’re too biased by the present, and we can’t see past it.
Yeah, MJ would have been MJ in the 60’s or the 70’s — but not the MJ we knew. He would have dominated his competition, but would he have been exactly the same player? I don’t think so, because the building blocks that people like Dr. J laid down for him wouldn’t have been laid yet.
Lest I be misunderstood, I don’t think anyone has been better than MJ since MJ — but I think you can make a compelling case for several players who came before him, and to borrow your own argument, wouldn’t Elgin Baylor have been Baylor in the 90’s? Wouldn’t Bill Russel have been BR in the 2000’s? Crossing generations has to work both ways in a conversation like this — or else we’re just reinforcing over and over again the bias of the present.
Sorry for sucking the fun out. … :)
by brgulker on Sep 15, 2009 8:34 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
theee best
wilt the stilt only scored 100 points once..it wasn’t filmed…magic led his team, as a ROOKIE to his first championship…elgin baylor, better than kobie or lebron……how about bill russell’s 9 in a row and eleven overall…a…. larry bird, bob cousy, jerry west, pistol pete maravich, nate tiny archibald (the last pg to ave 30 and 10 assists)and has everyone forgot about hakeem the dream???? not long ago, but forgotton…tooooo many players to compare, so yes, jordan is one of the best
by amazenhazen2 on Sep 14, 2009 5:14 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I just don’t agree with that “more competitive era” statement that works in certain situations. Or in certain sports like tennis or golf better but it wasn’t as if the Lakers or Celtics weren’t stacked.
I just don’t think thats very strong. Russells competition I don’t know about but I honestly don’t think too much of their competition. Some of those teams they faced even in the final were just clearly not as talented. And in some cases they only needed to win 2 series to win a ring. Plus they were able to keep their teams together I believe fairly easy.
Anyway if someone wants to give someone the greatest ever tag Iunno Jordan has the best argument but I’ll only say something if I don’t like someone else argument.
I think if you take into consideration everything winning-dominating-offense-defense-impact on the game-marketability-raising team play.
The theme thats always been there since the NBA started was you need a big man and Jordan won 3 without an elite then 3 more with the best rebounder of the era but he lacked offensively.
I don’t care who the greatest is in anything but Jordan its tough for me not to admit hes the greatest.
by Camry on Sep 14, 2009 11:21 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Jordan is the best of all time so far. Never in the history of basketball have the planets lined up for a player like they have for Jordan. The way he played, the way he looked when he played, the nickname, the logo, the off the court popularity, the endorsments. No other player has had all of these elements come together at one time in the history of sports. Magic was not as good as Jordan, almost. He had 4 or 5 number one picks on the same team. Kareem, Worthy,Magic,Thompson were all #1 picks. And i forgot Mcadoo. The Lakers were a powerhouse of talent. Bird? great, great player, but he didn’t have all the off court dynamics, neither did Russel,Oscar, Or Wilt, or Kobe, Lebron hasn’t won anything yet.No one so far has had everything Jordan brought to the table in one package. I challange anyone to prove me wrong.
by oldschoolbp on Sep 15, 2009 7:56 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I think those are really good points
Keep in mind though that new technology brought a ton more endorsements and marketing strategies that definitely helped Jordan benefit and the greats before him not seem as big of a deal (plus I for one, was not born 30 years ago). These same advances and increased marketing campaigns are making Lebron appear to be the next Jordan, if not better. Also, I don’t have the numbers in front of me, but I think MJ didn’t win anything until his 7th season. If my memory serves me correct, Lebron is entering his 6th?
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by Packey on Sep 15, 2009 10:17 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lebron is entering his 7th, sorry.
Motown String Music- SB Nation's Detroit Pistons Blog
by Packey on Sep 15, 2009 10:18 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why couldn’t Jordan win a championship in the 80’s? And Magic made players HOF’s…Kareem was older and not as much of a force for most of the time when Magic was there, and the others did nothing when they left LA. Worthy was very good, but Magic made him great. Look at the highlights.
by Playboysnow on Sep 16, 2009 11:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
They changed the rules for Jordan!!!!!!
I do not think anything else needs to be said. He was great and you cannot take that from him. But he would not have 6 rings if they did not tailor the rules to suit his skill set. The Pistons were beating up on him and he cried and whined until they made it so he could take three steps at will and push off on defenders to make his fall away drop. No other player in history was allowed that kind of cushion. Anyone who says different is hugging Jordans scrotum. He whined incessantly in his playing days…even when he was winning. If you were surprised by the comments he made at his HOF induction you are either too young to remember how he really was or your a moron.
by riki42972 on Sep 15, 2009 10:44 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Matter of fact.....
The Pistons probably would have won a couple more rings. Jordan could routinely dump in 40 a night. Even before the Jordan era rules. But he was a selfish stats player and was not a team oriented championship type player. Kind of like Kobe was until recently. If you score 50 points and your team only puts up 70-80 points total…what does that say about you? Jordan lived for the limelight and the glory and not the game.
by riki42972 on Sep 15, 2009 10:53 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Did you stop watching Jordan in the 80’s? Because you just described his first few seasons very well … but you said nothing about the 6 championship teams.
by brgulker on Sep 16, 2009 9:41 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
However....
Jordan is still the best there ever was…..hands down. He might just as well have had wings because when he left the floor…he could fly.
by riki42972 on Sep 15, 2009 10:57 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Jordon Was Better Than Johnson
Jordan had one other player on the Bulls that played at a level above the scrub level and that was Pippen.
Johnson on the other hand played with
1. Arguably the greatest center of all time in Kareem HOF
2. Big Game James Worthy HOF,
3. Bob McAdoo HOF,
4. Byron Scott about 18PPG during the 1980s,
5. Michael Cooper All NBA Defensive Team 8 times.
No doubt Magic was an exciting player and one of the best all time guards, though pound for pound Zeke was better. However, no way that Magic was better than Michael. Langlois is confused as usual.
by Buddahfan on Sep 15, 2009 1:56 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Dennis Rodman?
Uh … yeeeeeeah.
I support the Tornado Release [See: Joakim Noah]
by Prevenge on Sep 16, 2009 11:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
it doesn’t matter what era, the rules or anything else. whatever Jordan had is unigue to only to him. Even if he didn’t have the greatest basketball skills as say Oscar or Bird, they could never match his other assets. Jordan had the total package. No other player has had this no matter the reason. Watch his tapes he’s actually better than I remember. Most players , if you watch old films don’t seem as good compared to today. Like Russell and Wilt dribbling with only one hand. But Jordan!! He had more style, flair, killer instinct. And if he did make it to the finals he never lost. All the others have lost in the finals before. Not Jordan and Pippen was good but he didn,t make Jordan better it was the other way around. The only people that might be credited with making him better would be Phil Jackson and Tex Winter. AIr would have won the titles without Pip.
by oldschoolbp on Sep 15, 2009 2:56 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Magic and Bird were mostly good overall players.
But Jordan was the first player who began to dominate on more than one area. Were Magic and Larry dominant scorers, who could go off for 40 on any day of the week?
Did they have stifling defense, getting steals and blocks at incredible rates?
Did they have incredible athleticism? Could they score and not hinder their team? Could they perform in clutch situations?
Basically what I’m saying is, did they have the entire package? Magic and Bird had some excellent skills, but they didn’t have everything. Jordan did.
But I also have to agree with Jordan on this: he himself said that there can’t be one single greatest player ever, because each player builds on another’s greatness. ‘If I grew up on an island, taught myself how to play and developed my game without ever seeing another basketball player, then maybe I would accept being called the greatest ever’, he said in his book.
by Stacey_Is_King on Sep 15, 2009 6:48 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
He is 100% right...in my opinion
I have been arguing this same theory for years…..First, Jordan was a great player and one of the greatest, but Magic was better. And Sorry Stacy_is_king but obviously you don’t know nothing about Magic and Larry because A. Larry Bird was THE Best clutch shooter of all time and B. Magic didnt have a single weakness in his game, and was also an awsome clutch shooter. (and could play every position, and play them good.) There is no doubt in my mind Magic was the greatest all-around player ever. And to go further probably the Greatest period. Like Keith said Magic won 5 championships in the greatest era of NBA bball. During this era Jordan played and couldnt win a championship until his 8th season and Magic’s last. Magic won in his first, and played greater teams then Jordan did to win his 5. And everyone is saying : Don’t you think Jordan would play the same in that era….HELLO….he did play in that era and couldn’t win a championship. And to those who say he didn’t have a good team then…look it up he had some real good players beside him. Including Charles Oakley (best rebounder at that time) and another 20+ scorer Orlando Woolridge just to name two. Jordan was an awsome force and could take over a game by himself, but Magic was a great…no THE GREATEST LEADER to ever play and could take over a game by himself by scoring or making his players better by setting them up. He made players great, which made his team great. With that said I take nothing from either players, but being realistic Magic was just better. The best players ever in no order was Magic (1), Bird, Jordan, and Wilt…..just wanted to throw that in.
by Playboysnow on Sep 16, 2009 10:59 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Michael Jordan
In the history of the NBA was there ever a man who routinely received an ass whipping for 48 minutes by 12 guys, and could Still kill you however he pleased.
They changed the rules for him, because no one ever dominated like him before, enough said.
Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain. Lily Tomlin
by Leapin Lion on Sep 19, 2009 1:53 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
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