(1) I’m glad we’re talking defense, and I do think a decent chunk of defense is schemes/desire/motivation. But IMHO, we are going to have more matchup problems than most teams, especially at the 4-5, unless/until we get another piece or two.

(2) I still don’t understand getting rid of Afflalo. Not only did he seem like a great character guy (like McDyess), he also seemed like he still had room for improvement. Yeah, I know we are already going to struggle to find playing time for guards, but AA just seemed like the kind of guy you wanted on your bench.

Man, I loved Afflalo. And yet I totally forgot about him until reading this. Boo-urns to that trade.

And I hope Deron Washington can become the player Amir never did: non-stop hustle, energy, and athleticism. A few crowd-pleasing dunks, blocks, and rebounds per game isn’t asking for too much, is it?

+1 to TJ, especially point #2. A couple points I would add. First, moving Rip is easier if you have a quality backup SG like AA (now we have to take back a SG for Rip, or else we end up with no backup SG). Second, couldn’t we have gotten more than a salary dump out of him? And for that matter, Amir? Still confused about the way those two trades went down

=========

A couple things about CV and his words about defense. Gabe put me on to the blog of a Bucks fan that does a lot of statistical analysis. Preface: I realize statistics are imperfect, but I think they can help us understand basketball better.

Here’s what he has to say to us Piston fans about CV, a selection:

Villanueva’s flaws, on the other hand, are too embedded in his game to be covered up. He’s a poor two point shooter. He plays ZERO defense. And he turns the ball over and uses possessions extremely inefficiently. The only place those flaws can be covered up is on the bench.

I’m afraid Villanueva went a ways toward making my case for me when he represented the Dominican Republic at power forward in its loss to Canada. Check out the boxscore. Villanueva, by my calculations, produced 1 solitary Win Score point in the close contest, and was thoroughly outplayed by the unknown forward who the FIBA play-by-play identified as “Levon Kendall”. ( I determined CV’s counterpart by foul information. I would post a link to the FIBA site but I’m using a Mac and… believe it or not… I don’t know how).

Here’s a comparison. Villanueva and Kendall each played 29 minutes. In that time, Kendall posted 11 Win Score points to Villanueva’s aforementioned 1, meaning CV produced a marginal win score of somewhere in the neighborhood of 8.29 - Marcus Haislip numbers. It would thus not be a stretch of any measure to say Villanueva singlehandedly cost DR the game.

The thing I would be worried about is the way Villanueva seems to comport himself when there is no one on the court he considers his co-equal in scoring. He’s like the guy from “Fish that Saved Pittsburgh” that wrote “Trade Me!” on his chest. If CV thinks he’s the man, he will launch the leather everytime he touches it, whether he’s missing or hitting whether he has a good look or not.

Indeed, against Canada, Villanueva shot the piss out of the ball, but didn’t deliver much for his efforts. He produced a ridiculously low 17 points while using up 21.5 scoring possessions. Against Canada!! (How will the Bucks ever replace that kind of scoring??). And when CV is concentrating on scoring, its almost always to the detriment of every other statistical category. Versus the Canucks, he touched the ball a lot, but he passed the ball infrequently and rarely tried to create action by driving to the basket (evidenced by his one assist and just 3 free throw attempts).

At the moment one of the few positive moves the Bucks have made this offseason is letting Charlie Villanueva walk.

Yeah, players can improve, and defensive schemes matter. I understand all that. And I understand that CV appears to have a fantastic attitude and a good work ethic. I hope that happens. But until I see it, I’m going to be skeptical — because nothing in his career thus far suggests that he’s a capable defender (or an efficient scorer).

Adding on to brgulker’s post, among the advanced stats that do account for defense (i.e. not PER), there’s basically unanimity that CV is an awful defender.

While CV showed some slight improvement in his defensive effort last season under Skiles, he was still a huge liability on that end of the court, as evidenced by the Bucks allowing 111.3 pts per 100 poss with CV on the court, and 106.6 with him off (that defensive differential is a slight improvement over his previous season). He also has a career “defensive rating” average (estimate of pts allowed per 100 poss) of 110.

IMO, this gets to a debate we had on DBB a few months ago over whether defense is a skill or simply a matter of effort. I tend to think it’s a skill, so it can be improved with hard work and practice, but only to a point, and every player has a ceiling on how good they can be at defense. The effort argument would be; CV can become a much better defender by playing harder and concentrating more on defense.

There’s definitely some truth to both sides, but I lean towards the more pessimistic view that defense can be compared to shooting or dribbling or any other basketball skill, and is much less tied to pure effort than most people believe.

I don’t think we’d have to get a back up SG in return if we trade Rip. We can just slide Stuckey over to the back-up 2 and give MFWB more minutes at pg.

I don’t think we’d have to get a back up SG in return if we trade Rip. We can just slide Stuckey over to the back-up 2 and give MFWB more minutes at pg.

And defenses will be able to played a 2-1-2 zone and stack the paint. We won’t have a guard on the floor who can consistently make an 18-footer with that lineup.

Yuck, yuck, yuck.

brgulker…I agree outside shooting is a concern with those 2 at guards, so it would be beneficial to play a 3 and 4 (Prince/Daye/Summers/Charlie V) with them that has range to help strech the floor. Most of the time they would be matched up with other teams back-up guards…that should be an advantage to us in most cases even with the outside shooting concerns.

Well, for his career, CV shoots sub-33% from 3-point range — which isn’t bad, but it’s not great either. Tay’s 37%.

Summers only shot 35% in college, so I’m not gonna hold my breath on his outside shooting ability just yet. But Daye shot 42% in college, so maybe he can be an effective 3 point threat.

Anyway, I guess I just don’t see how any combo of Stuckey+Bynum works for long stretches, because I just don’t see anything better than average 3-point shooters on the rest of the roster.

A cuple of points:

It seems as commented above and written, we have come into camp with the right words about defense, Rip/BG playing time and other things. I think one of the main things here is even with the new faces, there seems to be a calmness about who is going to play and where. The battle for the 5 is certainly there and the backup regarding the 4 & 3 will be interesting. But good team basketball and chemistry, whether defensively or offensively, is predicated on a pecking order or an establishment of roles. This could blow up if the season goes south in a hurry, but I don’t see that happening.

I think defense is more predicated on effort than skill. There are attributes that help, long arms, ability to slide your feet, etc., but we’re talking about NBA level eltie athletes. The vast bulk of them have the skill set already. The fact that Ben Wallace (in his prime) could guard the better centers in the league with above average athleticism (and the hard work he’s put in the weight room, nutrition, etc) buttreses my point. But good individual defense is also predicated on team defense. If you’re forcing a guy into the corner expecting help and none arrives, it typically goes unnoticed except that said defender played poor defense.

I too question the long term wisdom of trading AA.. . .for peanuts. Or in this case, salary dump. At 6’5" 215, he has the skill set and desire to be a lockdown 2 with an improving offsenive game and the right overall attitude. I don’t see how players like that can’t help but be a positive addition to a team. I think he’s only 23 or 24 and doesn’t have alot of miles on the odometer.

I’ll wait to judge CV defense until December. Skiles is a D coach first, but Mil had injuries galore last season, Mah Mbuke (sp) surprised everyone and . . . they weren’t that good overall. I’d be hesitant to judge someone based on international play. . . see Carlos Arroyo. The international game is so much different than the NBA that I think college compares more favorably with the NBA.

If there is a rainbow on the horizon for us DBBer’s, it’s that excluding the clusterfuck of AI last season, at least this season it will be entertaining (not saying it hasn’t been) to watch the regular season. It will have more of an impact this and succeeding years. Up until last season, the regular season was about resting players for the playoffs starting from game 1 and basically, going thru the motions. I think the scoring, defense, playing and the record will be much more fun to “track” this year than any year in the past 7.

With the talent we have, I don’t think we will suck (like last year). And the actions done this year will go forward into making this a better team. One thing I am a bit concerned about (and going by comments) is that we’re one big time player away from being very competitive. If that’s what Jod said, I think he may have boxed himself into a corner. That puts alot of pressure on that one big stud should he arrive, I think it drives up the bargaining price and makes moves by Jod to that effect take on much more meaning. But hey. . . at least we don’t have MFAI and MCIAFI. It’s all good.

I think defense is more predicated on effort than skill. There are attributes that help, long arms, ability to slide your feet, etc., but we’re talking about NBA level eltie athletes. The vast bulk of them have the skill set already. The fact that Ben Wallace (in his prime) could guard the better centers in the league with above average athleticism (and the hard work he’s put in the weight room, nutrition, etc) buttreses my point. But good individual defense is also predicated on team defense. If you’re forcing a guy into the corner expecting help and none arrives, it typically goes unnoticed except that said defender played poor defense.

As a counterpoint from our own roster: Jason Maxiel.

Max plays fracking hard. Yet, he doesn’t produce anything close to what Ben Wallace produced. He doesn’t get as many steals. He doesn’t get as many blocks. He doesn’t get as many rebounds (especially defensive). Those would be the three statistical categories by which to judge defensive talent.

If defense is mostly effort and not skill, where does a guy like Max fit in that argument?

Personally, I don’t think you can teach anticipation, which is a big part of defense. Anticipating where the offensive player is going to move so that the defender can move his feet, determine of the offensive player is going to pump fake or actually take a shot, get to the correct place on the floor to take a charge, etc. Anticipating where to position oneself so as to optimize one’s chance for securing a defense rebound is a skill. Anticipating where the ball is going to move in order to position oneself in the passing lane in order to get a steal (that usually leads to a fast break bucket) is a skill.

Personally, I don’t understand why talent/skill is limited to discussions of offense. Kobe Bryant is an insanely talented offensive player. No one would dispute that he works incredibly hard to develop his skills, but no one would ever dispute that he has certain natural gifts and talents that cannot be coached.

Why would we argue those things about a guy like Ben Wallace (in his prime) — especially when guys like him seem to be once or twice in a generation type players like the Wade’s and James’s of the world?

Let me make my point much more succinctly:

Charlie Villanueva will never be as good as Ben Wallace was on the defensive side of the ball.

Why not?

This argument is, as always, an exercise in uselessness. We all get it— brgulker thinks we’re going to be horrible on defense, while other people are more optimistic. There really don’t need to be any more 500-word posts explaining positions that are clear and obvious— at this point it’s all just masturbation.

OT:

Q: What’s the difference between a priest and acne?

A: Acne waits until puberty to come on your face.

/thread unPC’d

This argument is, as always, an exercise in uselessness. We all get it– brgulker thinks we’re going to be horrible on defense, while other people are more optimistic

For the record, Gabe does too ;)

@brgulker,
Comparing CV with Ben is comparing apples and oranges. CV vs. Sheed would be a more appropriate/fair comparison as he’s filling Sheed’s old role. Intangible-wise, it’s well known that Sheed is one of the most intelligent players in the league and there’s no way CV can compete with him there. Villa’s had some good defensive coaches in Calhoun and Skiles, so maybe he has more in the noggin than he’s shown but certainly he’s no Sheed in that regard. But everywhere else? Well, Sheed was tall and long, Villa’s tall and long. The year before Sheed came to the Stones he averaged 1 block and .9 steals per 36 and Villa averaged 1 block and .9 steals per 36 last year. Both had criticisms of their game and mentality before they joined us.

Considering how worthless Sheed was effort-wise at times last year, I think it’s entirely reasonable to think that we could see no drop off from PF.

Sure the argument’s boring and played out, but it beats me making fun of the Tigers, right Joel? :)

Comparing CV with Ben is comparing apples and oranges.

Shinons, that was precisely my point. The point of my first post was to argue that defensive skills are just as much a talent as offensive skills are as a counterargument to the idea that defense is mostly effort and schemes.

CV will never be as good a defender as Ben Wallace because Big Ben was (maybe still is?) a much more more talented defensive player.

Well, Sheed was tall and long, Villa’s tall and long. The year before Sheed came to the Stones he averaged 1 block and .9 steals per 36 and Villa averaged 1 block and .9 steals per 36 last year. Both had criticisms of their game and mentality before they joined us.

Gabe sorta debunked the idea that CV is currently a good defender above, although those similarities are interesting. I wonder how the per 100 poss. numbers between the two compare. But, Sheed wasn’t regarded as a horrible defender at Portland, afaik anyway.

 And as I’ve been saying all along, I hope like hell he can improve his defense; it’s certainly possible, and he’s got a great attitude and a good work ethic.

Sure the argument’s boring and played out, but it beats me making fun of the Tigers, right Joel?

Hey now, all we have to do is play .500 ball here on out to win the division. And even with our sophomoric offense I think we should be able to pull that off, right? Right?! Thank jeebus for Justin Verlander.

Hey now, all we have to do is play .500 ball here on out to win the division.

The AL Central: It’s faaaaaaantastic!

Thank jeebus for Justin Verlander.

Hey, don’t forget about Lyon…

And as I’ve been saying all along, I hope like hell he can improve his defense; it’s certainly possible, and he’s got a great attitude and a good work ethic.

That’s fine, I just don’t think it’s his role to improve the defense – I consider that the “Ben Wallace role” of a dude controlling the paint, getting us back to the days of 6-7 blocked shots per game. That would make Stuck, Tay/Daye, and Villa’s length that much more relevant. Until then, I figure no matter who we have out there we’ll look mediocre defensively.

I don’t think the AL Central is that bad. I think it’s more the case where the teams are all similarly built (horrible offense, good starting pitching), so everybody beats up on eachother (much like Big 10 basketball). For example, the Tigers are 22-14 against the AL West, which has a much better overall record. And don’t even get me started on the NL. We’d have 100 wins EASY.

This year’s AL Central = 2006 NL Central (Cards 83-78, Stros 82-80, Reds 80-82)

Not saying we’re going to win the World Series after winning 83 games like those Cards did, but still, bad overall record for a division does not necessarily mean “bad division.”

I consider that the "Ben Wallace role" of a dude controlling the paint, getting us back to the days of 6-7 blocked shots per game.

Well, I think everyone on the team should be striving to get better — but you’re right, CV wasn’t brought in to replace Ben Wallace. I understand that.

I also agree that we’re one Big Ben away from being pretty competitive (assuming growth in players such as Stuckey, Daye). But I think Big Ben’s are pretty darn rare to come by.

Anyone else read Sherrod’s article in the OP? http://bit.ly/vxUGv

Encouraging words from the three C’s.

OT:
Last night, I wanted to take another look at Sheed vs. CV’s last season on basketball reference. We’ve all discussed this a lot, so I’m not going to go back over the most noteable parts of the comparison again. However, one thing did stand out to me:

On even minutes, Villanueva grabbed nearly 2 more offensive rebounds per game than Rasheed. That’s 2 more extended possessions on a team with a vastly upgraded range. This is pretty significant, and while Villanueva’s defense is suspect until proven, this alone could change our point differential on the season.

Villanueva is also superior to any of our frontcourt players last season in assists, averaging about one more per game in even minutes. With Kuester’s focus on dishing from the paint to outside shooters (see james, lebron and williams, mo), our 3-point shooters will benefit even more from Villa’s offensive boards.

Joel,
It’s crazy – on paper, the Tigers, Sox, and Twins all look like really good teams. But no one wanted to go win the damn division. This Sox season was incredibly frustrating. Every time it looked like they ought to take off, we get even worse. Quentin gets back from injury and our offense goes a month without scoring more than 5 runs. Buehrle throws a perfect game, then proceeds to suck for the rest of the season. We add Rios and Peavy to make a run down the stretch and completely collapse. But the worst part is there’s no one to actually blame it on, they just can’t win any damn games! I imagine it must have been similar for Tigers fans.

brgulker,
Ben Wallaces certainly don’t grow on trees, but there’s plenty of athletic young shot blockers who will be available one way or another. He doesn’t need to be DPOY, just a guy who can block/alter shots without disappearing on the defensive glass, then I will feel a whole lot better about our defense.

but there’s plenty of athletic young shot blockers who will be available one way or another.

Out of curiosity, do you have some guys in mind?

@brgulker:
TRADE AMIR NOW

brgulker,
Pryz and Gortat are DBB favorites. Less popular are Okafor, Dalembert, and Chandler (I’m definitely not a fan of any of them). There’s some other unlikely but under-the-radar types like Turif or Diop. None of those guys are 30.

But there are also quite a few rookies in this class who could fit the bill, most notably Larry Sanders and Jarvis Varnado.

Shinons, believe it or not, I know the DBB fav’s ;)

I’d love me some Gortat or Pryz, for the record.

More on the dead horse that is Sheed and CV comparisons…

Rasheed at 25 (99-00, only played 49 games at age 24) per 36

FG .519
3PT attempts and %: 0.1 for 0.6, .160
TS%: .556
eFG%: .522
FT attempts and : 2.9 4.2 .704
O/D Rebounds, Total: 1.6, 5.5, 7.2
Asst:1.8
Stl.: 1.1
Block:1.4
TO: 2.0
Fouls: 2.7
Points:16.8

In 2000-2001, Sheed started shooting a lot of 3’s, and his shooting numbers begin to decline. Last season, which was Sheed’s worst by far:

FG%: .419
3pt%: .354
TS%: .520
eFG%: .498

CV at 24 (08-09), per 36:

FG ..447
3PT attempts and %: 1.1 for 3.3, .345
TS%: .529
eFG%: .488
FT attempts and : 2.6 for 3.1, .838 (excellent FT shooter, but doesn’t get there often)
O/D Rebounds, Total: 2.6 6.3 8.9
Asst: 2.4
Stl.: 0.9
Block: 1.0
TO: 2.4
Fouls: 4.4
Points: 21.7

The Sheed comparison is interesting. Sheed at 25 shot a pretty good percentage, rebounded, got steals, and blocked shots. We didn’t have the young Sheed, and CV isn’t being asked to replace young Sheed. He’s being asked to replace the Sheed we had. For us over the past few years, Sheed didn’t shoot the ball that well, but still did the rest pretty well.

But let’s follow the comparison with Sheed. I don’t like Sheed’s efficiency over the past few seasons shooting the ball, but what about CV? In his ‘best’ season, his shooting numbers are eerily similar to Rasheed’s worst season. (Comparing him with old Sheed)

On the positive side: He does get more assists (1 per 36), shoots a higher FT% and gets there more often, gets slightly more rebounds (0.6).

On the negative side: he commits 1 more foul per 36, gets fewer blocks and steals per 36 (0.5 and 0.2), and turns the ball over more often (2.4 to 1.0). And, he scores more points but with a much, much higher usage rate.

Hopefully, CV hasn’t reached his ceiling just yet, and he can improve. And yes, his numbers are very similar to the guy he’s replacing. But, I’m saying that that’s not necessarily a good thing. CV’s ‘best’ season is incredibly similar to Sheed’s worst season…

Anyway, maybe the horse is dead. Joel, feel free to make fun of the length of this post.

Dangit, copied and pasted something wrong: CV’s FT numbers per 36 are actually: 3.5 4.1 .838, not what I posted above.

That post was like the unit of a well-hung monk.

“On a side note, can you imagine if Wallace’s intensity rubs off on Kwame? I know Kwame is solid, but that’s mostly because of his size. If he can inherit Wallace’s motor, I’ll live with the worst hands in the league.”

I think if a Wallace rubbed off on Kwame it would be Rasheed. I’ve seen Kwame talk about how Sheed was the best mentor he played with and how he Quarterbacked the defense. I can’t see Kwame ever being an aggressive player like Ben, but he’s been in the league long enough and seems to have a professional attitude now. I can see him being more vocal about getting the team’s spacing and rotations right on defense.

“but there’s plenty of athletic young shot blockers who will be available one way or another.

Out of curiosity, do you have some guys in mind?"

Larry Sanders. Kyrylo Fesenko. Timofey Mozgov. Jarvis Varnado. Solomon Alabi. Jan Vesely.

brgulker: I have to respectfully disagree. I think Ben is/was alot stronger than Max, I think a number of posters here all raved following the 08 season about Max’s job on Howard in the palyoffs and part of Ben’s highlife on D came when we had Sheed at the 4 so he could afford to gamble a bit on defense.

I also think if Max got 36 minutes a game, he could average 10 rebounds. And let’s face it, with the one and only play they drew up for Ben during his previous stint here, he’s not going as hard on offense as Max would be expected to typically. And I think the game is called alot more closely down low than it was early this decade. Case in point: I think Shaq bulldozed just as much if not more when he was younger than he does now, but I sense he gets called alot more for offensive fouls.

I do agree on the anticipation part, but I believe alot of that comes from watching film and studying players you have to go up against.

First post, ever. Love the site.
Re: young, athletic shot blocking, rebounding, bigs…

What we need is a 22 year old, 6’10", 235 lb, big man with a long wingspan, freakish athleticism, and an never ending motor who isn’t afraid to do the dirty work and mix it up inside.

Jonas Jerebko?

He put on 30+ pounds of muscle in the last year, and at 22 I can’t believe he’s done yet. He could be quite a find.

I’m on board the Jerebko train fo’sho.

I love that his initials are Double J.

I dont know why everyone feels that shot blocking is such a necessary skill set for our future center. If you think about it, ever since Ben left we didn’t have that guy. ‘course we didn’t win a ring. But no one can attribute that to shot blocking.

I think we have enough athletic forwards. who will play hard D. and block plenty of shots that can compensate for a center who doesn’t. Like a David Lee, to have a center who for once can give us 10 rebounds a game will go pretty far. Or lets just say we had Dice on the team this year, How much better would everyone feel about us doing some serious damage?

I know this is apples and oranges. but remember the gaurd rotation of 04. when Mike and Lindsey would come in and change the game? I know we’ll never again have that level of lockdown D. but wouldn’t it be nice to see BG & MFWB come in and just totally change the pace of a game? anyone ever heard of stifling offense? lol!

Haven’t read comments on the other threads today, but did anyone else catch this link in true hoop today?

http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-44-110/Wayne-Winston—Mark-Cuban-s-Stats-Expert-Isn-t-Bashful.html

Guy gives a nice shout out for BG, and after all the doom and gloom of this thread, it’s kinda nice to see some positives for this season.

scntfc – My opinion is that an elite shot blocker makes teams much more inclined to settle for jumpers, which plays to the advantage of most of our personnel and makes all of them seem like better defenders. Chauncey, I think, is a really good example. He was regarded as an elite defender, and rightfully so. But he was able to use his size to his advantage without having to worry as much about the smaller, quicker point guards exploiting him. When Ben left and we never replaced that shot blocking presence, the Rajon Rondos of the world were able to take advantage of Chauncey. I also credit it to Tay’s defensive struggles. I think it completely changes our defense.

It also establishes the physical presence that made our defense so intimidating.

To answer your question if Dice would be more comfortable, no, I personally wouldn’t be. I want someone who’s going to challenge guys when they drive and too often both Dice and Sheed played matador help defense.

craig—I did read that…it’s interesting that he thinks the bulls are going to “stink” this year. philly is my pick to underachieve, given that they don’t have a point guard anymore.

and now, some more rain on the DBB parade:

http://www.basketballfreeforall.com/archives/1245

also: marcus camby?

Time for somewhat on-topic Langlois bashing. Here’s his new article:
http://www.nba.com/pistons/news/truebluepistons_090930.html

Keith tries to get into some statistical analysis to prove Ben Gordon’s 3 point shooting makes him a great fit for our team. Fine, sure, whatever. Except, first of all, Keith’s math is retardedly confusing:

“[The Pistons] attempted only 13.2 per game, less than all teams except Philadelphia and Oklahoma City. The league average for 3-point attempts as a percentage of total attempts was 22.4 percent; only 16.5 percent of Pistons shot attempts last year came from behind the 3-point line. The Pistons weren’t just infrequent 3-point shooters, but inaccurate ones, as well, finishing 26th in marksmanship at 34.9 percent. The league average was 6.65 3-point makes per game, the Pistons’ average was 4.6 – essentially putting them in a six-point hole to start games.”

WTF? Anyway, couple things: 1) Who gives a shit what the overall league average was? Detroit’s opponents made a total of 435 threes last season, while Detroit made a total of 377. That’s a difference of less than one made three a game, so we weren’t “in a six-point hole to start games.” 2) Detroit held other teams to a 3pt% of .354, while we were at .349.

I’d argue the factor Keith is blatantly ignoring is that while our overall team 3-point shooting % went down from .366 in 07-08 to .349 (and our 3pt makes went from 487 down to 377), the more worrisome issue is our 3pt defense went from allowing teams to only shoot .332 in 07-08, up to allowing a % of .354 the following season. That is something Billups doesn’t get enough credit for, he’d occasionally get burned by quick PG’s, but he was amazing at defending the 3 point line.

And how did Jod respond to our teams collapse in perimeter defense? He traded away one of our best perimeter defenders for absolutely nothing, and signed Ben Gordon for $11m a year; Gordon’s probably not as bad a defender as his reputation suggests, but he’s definitely no better than average. So while our own 3 point shooting will improve, I don’t see us defending it any better this season.

IMO, the ability to block shots does not make one a good defensive player. However, I totally agree with Shinons. Having a shot blocking presence definately has a positive team impact on the defensive side of the ball, and can help make a lot of average (or maybe even worse) perimeter defenders appear very good.

Love to have Camby 2 or 3 years ago! Now, eh, not so much.

Man, I don’t know how many end-of-quarter-last-second lay-ups we gave up last season. 20? 40? It sure seemed like a hell of a lot. If we had an interior presence (even someone who doesn’t necessarily block a lot of shots, but just gets in guys’ heads) that wouldn’t have happened. Having opponents score those buzzer beaters game after game was so demoralizing and I never want to see it happen again.

I would always rooting for Afflalo!

affalo was a good defender. yet another misused piston in a year of disjointed lineups. i am happy that he has found a home in denver because i really started rooting for denver in the playoffs. i think he is a perfect replacement for jones. and i don’t expect him to get in trouble for tripping anyone. it was sweet of joe to give him away for free. maybe he was trying to makeup with chauncey for when they are together at old timer events further on down the road.

Yeah, I think we need an athletic, shot-blocking big. Sheed and Dyess were great defenders but they could be exploited with pick and rolls because they just can’t cover ground anymore. They’re great low post defenders but with the league trending towards dribble penetration, that’s not a premium.

Everyone talks about Ben Gordon and Rip, but to me, the single most important thing that needs to happen for the Pistons to become a contender is for Villanueva to commit to off-the-ball defense. Kwame is a good defender and a very good post defender so he’ll most likely take the tough low post assignments (plus you’ll want to keep CV out of foul trouble). So CV NEEDS to concentrate on making good rotations and showing/recovering in pick and roll situations.

There’s nothing more important that this in my opinion. He’s the key to the defense being good or so-so.

@inge:
I would always rooting for Afflalo!

I would always too! Miss you, coachDP.

@scntfc:

What Shinons said. Shot blockers keep opposing team’s driving offenses honest. You know how the league changed all their rules to benefit penetration? Shot blocking is the only thing left to keep them honest.

Sorry this is OT, but I don’t have Sean W’s contact info:

@Sean W: My wife gets a bit of a discount Raptors/Pistons game.
Balcony is $39-45 instead of $54.
Balcony prime is $61-66 instead of $76.

Not super cheap, but a bit of a discount.

Unfortunately one of the few negatives with winning our way to 6 straight ec finals and 2 nba final apperances is the bar to suceed is raised so high.I’m sick of reading all this negative crap about the Pistons when the season has barely started ,are we gonna be a powerhouse defensive team hell no ,not til we aquire a solid center ,but I do think with a commitment to defense by the coaches and the players we we’ll be an average defensive team and if this team has as much offensive fire power as it looks to have on paper then thats enough for this yr. . The national media wants to portrait us as a team that was on the edge of winning a title ,and that JOD blew it by dismantling the team and bringing in one dimensional players who can’t play defense ,when in actuallity we were a team going down hill and getting older by the minute .This team we have now, and JOD, probably shouldn’t be judged until after the trade deadline at the earliest and the completion of the 20,11-12 season at the latest ,it took 3 to 4 yrs to get to an elite level before barring a miraculous trde it will again ,as far as the national media is concerned fuck them .PS I don’t understand the Afflayo trade myself.

MFMP: just ingepinon.

@MFSkeeze:
+1

@Defor:
Paragraph breaks and proper punctuation make the world go ‘round. Yeah, I’m a dick for saying it, but you usually make really good points but I stop reading after the 10th word when they’re in a huge chunk like that. Break it up, brutha.

@Garrett:

Sounds like a great deal. My contact info is frikshun@gmail.com

Sorry I lost the email address you sent me.

@MP:

The M.F. Spelling Police! I’ve been guilty of the same thing. Mostly on facebook, correcting status messages which resemble something like this: “I new this was gonna happen. U no I cant go out drinking and then wake up and make it to werk in the morning.”

More from Wayne Winston on Ben Gordon (via TrueHoop):
http://waynewinston.com/wordpress/?p=144

Also, David Thorpe gives his thoughts on the nature vs. nurture defense debate:
http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-44-112/Follow-Up-on-Today-s-Wayne-Winston-Post.html

I’d tend to agree with Thorpe, but he might be overstating his case. As a coach and trainer, he would be naturally biased in favor of the nurture side of the argument.

@ Scott’s linked article, which says:

First, let’s deal with Big Ben. Wallace’s career is clearly on its last legs

Bad pun, bro. Seriously bad pun.

Yeah, Thorpe’s argument skews way to highly towards coaching:

“With Ray Allen and Rashard Lewis, Seattle was a bad team. Both players, then, had very bad defensive ratings according to adjusted plus/minus. Yet in the last two years, those same players have been starters (Allen on the 2007/2008 Celtics, Lewis on the 2008/2009 Magic) on the NBA’s best defensive teams, with good defensive ratings… “On bad teams, there is often not a good plan,” Thorpe explains. “But get them playing for Tom Thibodeau or Stan Van Gundy…”

I’m pretty confident in saying the biggest factor in improving Allen and Shard’s defensive ratings was playing with Garnett and Howard.

Pardon me if it’s been posted before, but how can you not root for the man????

http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/spurs/McDyess_feels_privileged_to_be_with_Spurs.html

Kudos to SA to offer him a 3 yr. contract too. They are officially my second favorite team now.

That’s true Gabe, but Thorpe is on to something. There are a lot of examples of guys being perceived as terrible defenders, leaving their crappy team, then suddenly not being a liability anymore. The Allen and Lewis examples probably aren’t great ones because of the great defenders they’re surrounded by, but what about Pau? Or Mo Williams?

As to the Wayne Winston guy, I’m hesitant to put too much stock in his opinions thanks to this gem:
http://waynewinston.com/wordpress/?p=108

I think Rip has learned how to play defense since coming to Detroit. He was never known as the pesky defender he is now while he was in Washington. He was just a skinny kid that ran a lot and shot mid-range J’s. Now he’s a skinny man who runs a lot and shoots mid-range J’s, the occasional 3, and plays pesky defense with uncut finger nails.

Well Onions, I don’t know that we should dismiss Winston on the basis of that article. I agree with you that Telfair isn’t good, but apparently his plus/minus numbers are.

Yeah Mr. Andersen, it’d certainly be premature dismiss him. I like that he seems to look at things differently and seems to have a streak of a contrarian to him, so I’m willing to see what he has to say in the future.

But man, that Telfair article is really bad – just the headline “Sebastian Telfair: An Underrated Gem!” sounds like it’s got to be a parody. So he’s on his third team before the age of 23, in five years his teams have never won more than 27 games, he can’t shoot, isn’t a good distributor, undersized, and has off-court issues, but because of this one stat he’s an underrated gem? To me that’s a blow to his credibility, but yeah, I’d not write him off completely.

I think there are really three major aspects important for playing good individual defense.

1. Biology (i.e. height, weight, strength, speed, etc.)
2. Coaching
3. Talent

For the most part, No.1 you either have or you don’t. Every NBA has No. 2 to some degree. Not everyone has No. 3. I see the talent portion as something that can be honed, but some players just don’t seem to have it at all.

Take the case of Amir. He has plently of No. 1, a good amount of No. 2 (no I’m not counting Curry), but seemed to really lack in No. 3. He consistantly blew assignments, couldn’t cut off his opponents angles, mis-timed his jumps, etc.

The best defensive players possess all three attributes. The case of players who’s defense drastically improves on a new team probably relates to an improvement in No. 2 and a honing of No. 3. However, some of it can be attributed to the player’s individual defense looking much better than it actually is because the team defensive concept is much better and suits those players much better.

@Waulie:
Stick around this season man, I enjoy your comments. :)

I miss McDyess already. :(

Lots of good points about defense here and the other threads. It’s just time to start watching the games and determine who is just saying the right things and who will put in the work to do the right things. My only real concern is CV but maybe a good defensive system will help him more than anything.

This McDyess quote is brutal: "I always think about that Game 7 in ’05, seeing Tim and the other Spurs celebrating. " – Me too ’Dyess Raw, me too. Take that shit to the grave, Roscoe.

And this little weasel of a man is at it again.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4523175

Un-friggin-believable!

Although I can totally see Curry saying that.

Allen Iverson seems like an incredibly insecure fella…

I don’t believe Curry said any of that. It’s way too coherent.
I can’t wait for the opener!

I like it when he says it was the worst career move he ever made. ATTENTION AI: You had no say.

Of course, if there’s anyone who knows about coming to a team and lying, it would be AI. And his talent speaks for itself, especially considering that he signed a one year contract with one of the worst franchises evah in the NBA.

You’re right AI. It isn’t you, it’s everyone in the NBA. Hey look at me. . . I can make one of the worst NBA franchises even shittier.

Waulie: that’s good.

Man, that article just makes me angry. Talk about entitlement. So they said you wouldn’t come off the bench, so what? THINGS CHANGE. Plans change. Strategies change. Come off the bench and do what your team needs you to do to win. Keeeee-rist.

And how is it the worst career move he ever made? It wasn’t his choice! It’s a business and he got traded and he needed to be professional about it.

Man, AI just gets me riled up. I know all of this has been said before (and will probably be said again and again) but he just sucks.

So to put it another way, you guys think AI is lying when he said that some in the team threatened to not play with him if he’s not on the bench? Because that’s some serious accusation right there.

@Widjayaman:

Ummmm… yeah…. I’m saying that.

“Iverson: Yeah. And this is what got me, after that, they told me that if I didn’t come off the bench — the team was going to lie down on [not play with] me”

I obviously wasn’t there to hear this conversation between AI and the coaching staff, but I’m guessing their message was that he would lose a little respect from everyone in the locker room if he refused to come off the bench. This is the same guy who said the day after the trade that he would do whatever the coaching staff asked of him if they thought it was in the teams best interests.

I don’t know if certain guidelines were set before the interview about what questions could be asked, but Scoop really put out a complete fluff piece for AI. No questions about his original commitment to do whatever it takes and how that conflicts with his actions, about him skipping practice, or about his “back injury”.

But seriously in all honesty who knows what was said or what exactly happened. It’s just pretty ridiculous that he’s spilling all of this now that he’s got a job lined up. He’s atttempting to save face in the wake of a disastrous season after being exposed for the player and person he really is.

I find extremely hard to believe that the team was out to get him and would “lie down” should he continue to start. I used to actually like Allen Iverson the player prior to his stint in the D. After his actions over the past year I have no desire to watch the man play another game.

On AI’s headstone:

“I’ll do anything the coaching staff asks me to do” . . . as long as I agree with it.

Dear AI,

The proper response to questions about anything having to do with the Pistons is: “It’s unfortunate that the whole situation didn’t go better and we weren’t able to bring another championship to Detroit. But that’s over now and I’m a Memphis Grizzly, and we’re going to do whatever we can to get the Grizzlies the first championship in the franchise’s history.” Even Brett Favre handles this shit better than you.

Sincerely,

Common Sense

For anyone who’s interested in the entire AI interview, here it is:

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=jackson/091001&sportCat=nba

Skylar:

That game 7 in 2005 was a killer, especially in retrospect. Not getting the back-to-back ‘ships, especially since 2004 was the only one this group got, really hurts the perception of that group’s legacy (rightly or wrongly).

But while Roscoe did blow an assignment, and that one assignment did allow a winning shot in a crucial game, I don’t think you can pin the loss to the Spurs in the series on him. I saw one of those games live and all of them on TV, and ‘Sheed was, generally, playing great. And other Pistons made other mistakes, although they didn’t weren’t as prominent in isolation. And Joe D. never got the starters a decent bench after 2004. And of course, the Spurs were a quality team.

Hell, I’ll put blame on ‘Sheed for the loss to the Cavs in ’04 or the loss to the Celtics in ’08 before I’ll blame him for the loss to the Spurs in ’05.

None of that should make McDyess feel any better, though.

Yeah, it’s cold to talk about Ras-clot like that, I loved that dude while he was here, despite some of the lame moves he was pulling. And he indeed was playing fantastic in that particular number of games.

My recollection of that 05 finals is admittedly fuzzy, simply because I can’t watch the shit since, people were literally crying around me when they lost it all.

I have the same feeling about that series, Skylar, and again the importance to the team’s legacy was magnified in that they never got another ’ship (or even back to the finals).

But I remember two things. First, despite the bitter disappointment, you had to give the Spurs credit. Generally, they were good-great players playing “the right way,” as a team, emphasizing defense. Sure, Ginobli flopped a bit and Bowen could certainly get dirty on defense. But I respected the Spurs more than the Heat, Cavs, or even Celtics.

Second, I remember Detroit’s lack of a bench. Everyone here knows this, but the 2005 team had lost Mike James, Mehmet Okur, and Corliss Williamson, among others, and we never got adequate replacements for them (with the exception of McDyess). Darko was now a confirmed disaster. We had no backup SF (a problem that would go unsolved through last season). I swear if we just had ONE of the James-Okur-Williamson trio in 2005, along with our starters and McDyess, we would have won it all.

ai played well in the win against the lakers early last season.

MP ,sorry about the poorly structured post .Worked too many hrs. yesterday and was really tire, just got worked up over all negativity .