Reality Check: Pacers 105, Pistons 93
by Packey on Jan 22, 2010 11:10 PM EST
in Detroit Pistons Recaps
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What Happened:
Any momentum we thought the Pistons gained from Wednesday's win against the Celtics went right out the window with this atrocity against a not-very-good Pacers team. The Pistons lack of energy to start each half made all the difference tonight -- the Pacers went on a 14-0 run near the start of the first and started the third with an 11-0 run. The rest of the game was back-and-forth mediocrity.
The Pacers hit nine three-pointers to the Pistons one and shot above 50% for most of the game (until garbage time), while Detroit was under 40%.
The Good:
Rip scored a game-high 27 points on 9-17 shooting, with five rebounds and three assists. He did have seven turnovers, but I tend to think his 27 points played a much bigger role in keeping the Pistons within 30 points tonight. Though the turnovers need to come down, it was encouraging to see him bounce back from a pretty awful game on Wednesday.
The Bad:
We could talk about Charlie Villanueva (1-9 shooting, minus-22 in 20 minutes) or maybe Rodney Stuckey (3-13 shooting, minus-25). The Pacers allow on average 104 points per game compared to their 99. You can pick two of our best scoring options as the bad or you can pick the defense. Either way, tonight's loss was the real 'bad.'
The Chuck Nevitt Unsung Hero:
Jonas Jerebko. He didn't have the gaudy numbers in the box score, but he played every second of his with the utmost effort and is deserving of some props here (and probably should have gone under "The Good"). He finished with 14 points on 7-12 shooting and seven rebounds off the bench. He also didn't back down from Danny Granger who was all hot and bothered by the rookie Swede actually playing hard.
The Takeaway:
The Pistons can't lose games like this if they are serious about earning a playoff spot. Wednesday's win could have been a turning point in the right direction for that mission, instead they probably took a step back with this loss.
On the flip side, losses like this can happen. The Pacers were probably due to get back over the 100 point clip after a few losses under that mark in a row. The Pistons had won four of their last five and were probably still riding high from Wednesday's game. They got caught sleep walking tonight, but if the Pistons go 4-2 in every six-game stretch for the rest of the season, they're going to make the playoffs. That's the brightest side that you can take from a game like this.
They play less than 24 hours from now against the Blazers, so they'll need to win another back end of a back-to-back to take some of the sting away from this one. They've won their last two since starting the season 1-8 in them. Let's hope they can make it three.
UPDATE:
via Detroit News:
Prince got into a shouting match with coach John Kuester and had to be restrained with 7:16 left in the game when Kuester pulled his starters and emptied the bench. The Pacers led 97-74 at the time.
Awesome, Tayshaun. Welcome back.
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First things first; I actually enjoyed sitting through tonight’s shitfest because the game thread was awesome. But, now I’m sipping a little haterade:
These types of games come included, like it or not, in the Charlie Villanueva package. 20 minutes of all-consuming suckage on defense. Plus, on nights like tonight, when his jumper and weird semi-floater aren’t falling, he’s literally killing you on both ends of the court. Watching CV defend the post and paint is a tragicomedy of errors.
Wilcox is the worst. There’s not much more to say than that. Can we buy him out, or Tonya Harding his kneecaps and collect the insurance or something?
I’m giving Stuckey somewhat of a pass tonight. He played like crap and took some really stupid jump shots, but to my eyes, it looked like he was semi-frozen out of the offense by Tay/Rip. Strife is brewing.
Two stupendously enormous thumbs down to Coach Kuester. This had to be our worst coached game of the year. Indiana was +29 with Hibbert on the court! By far the best mark on their team… Huh, I wonder if we have anyone on our roster who might be a decent match-up to counter Indy’s lumbering behemoth? Nah, I doubt it. Let’s just see how Max and CV do! That should work.
Also, Kuester needs to have his nuts punched every time Chucky Atkins plays over twice as many minutes as Daye.
by Gabe F-B on Jan 23, 2010 12:29 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
FYI
IMO, it was an oversight on Packey’s part to leave Prince out of “The Bad”, when the facts are these:
Villanueva was 1-9/.111
Stuckey was 3-13/.231
Prince was 3-12/.250
re: playing Atkins and Stuckey together
Role definition is definitely one of the problems with this year’s team. Stuckey needs to be the Point Guard. Period. When he’s shifted back and forth to the OG spot … i.e. playing beside Atkins … it arrests Stuckey’s proper development as a PG.
In a game like this evening’s …
- If Stuckey is going to get 34 min as the PG, and
- If Hamilton is going to get 32 min as the OG, then
- Atkins should get 14 min as the Back-up PG, and
- Daye should get 16 min as the Back-up OG.
When Kuester doesn’t do that he is making a significant personnel mistake.
re: Prince yelling/screaming at Kuester in the 4th quarter
A poor sign for sure.
Although it may sound overly simplistic to some of you …
The main problems with this year’s Pistons still revolve around overall poor coaching.
i.e. When the team performs well it is tied to the fairly good job Kuester does that night handling his personnel in a proper way. When the team performs poorly it is tied to the fairly bad job Kuester does that night handling the same chore in a less-than proper way.
Until Joe D fixes his coaching problem … i.e. Flip Saunders, then, Michael Curry, and now John Kuester … this group of players will probably not be good enough to make the playoffs this season.
khandor
Leaving Prince out of the bad
was me giving him the benefit of the doubt, considering it was his first game in just under 2 weeks. Not an oversight, but a conscious decision. However, if I knew about him yelling at Kuester at the time, I probably would have mentioned him.
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I think Prince is a very solid player, but ...
3-12 shooting is not a very good percentage, any way you slice it.
As a veteran player, Prince should be ready to play when he goes into the game; or, knowing where his individual game is at better than anyone else, he should sit out until he is able to contribute in a more constructive way.
When a player like Prince [i.e. with his temperment, skill-set, experience, etc.] has occasion to yell/scream at his head coach, it’s an indication that something is wrong with what that head coach is actually doing, not a sign that something is wrong Prince.
In my judgment, there have been signs for a while now that John Kuester wasn’t as ready to do a good job in his current capacity, as a head coach in the NBA, as I had been told by others he was when Joe D hired him this past off season. For the sake of this team, hopefully, his learning curve begins to decrease quickly and with Joe D’s help he can start to make better decisions regarding the use of his current personnel.
khandor
No coach in the world could make this roster, complete with its injuries, a playoff team.
The roster isn’t good enough. This will be demonstrated during the last 20-30 games when we finally get everyone healthy. We’ll be mediocre. We’ll win some nights, and we’ll lose some nights.
respectfully
We will need to agree to disagree about what a top notch coach might be able to accomplish with the Pistons’ current roster.
khandor
Two things I wonder about:
1) What do you mean when you say “top notch” with respect to a coach? In other words, how does one determine who such a coach is,
2) How does one measure such a coach’s impact?
My underlying objection is that it’s going to be circular reasoning: top notch coaches are coaches who win; coaches who win are top notch coaches.
See what I mean?
brgulker
Being categorized properly as a Top Notch basketball involves more than “just winning” … although “winning”, properly defined as maximizing one’s available resources, relative to the performance of others, is certainly a significant [i.e. small but recognizable] part of the equation.
Those looking for “substantive, empirical weight” to determine/support their opinions as to who exactly fits into this exalted category, in a sound way, are wasting their time.
e.g. The best teachers are not necessarily the ones who, exclusively, produce the classes and the individual pupils with the highest overall academic average in a non-specific data set.
i.e. Qualitative judgments like … and scores of others, as well … are best decided by something other than a strictly mathematical-based formula.
khandor
Thanks for the reply.
However, I still don’t have a better understanding of what makes a coach a good coach in your opinion.
Even if there aren’t empirical measures that can be used, you must mean something tangible, right? What are those tangible qualities that make a coach good? How could I recognize a coach that was good?
How could I recognize a coach that was good?
The reason it’s not really worth bothering with khandor anymore is he’s made it clear that, in his opinion, you or anyone who isn’t him wouldn’t be able to tell the difference. His answer to anything will basically boil down to- “if you knew as much as me, then we wouldn’t be having this conversation.” When someone acts like they have nothing to learn, they’re not worth your time.
a good example of why you really don't get IT
re: His answer to anything will basically boil down to- "if you knew as much as me, then we wouldn’t be having this conversation."
IMO, it’s when two people share a similar level of understanding, and this level happens to be at the high end of the expertise continuum, regarding a specific topic, that the very best of conversations can actually take place.
If you happen to hold a different perspective than that, about this topic … that’s certainly your perogative.
In my experience, here’s a problem which many members of different NBA fan sites have:
According to them, no one else can possibly have a better understanding of their favourite team because no one else has seen this team play more games and, therefore, knows the specific strengths and weaknesses of their personnel, better than their own fans …
which is a patently false perception to hold about oneself, or one’s own knowledge base about anything in life … except, perhaps, for your own spouse, or children. :-)
With all due respect, Gabe F-B, the person[s] here who thinks that s/he has nothing further to learn about the Detroit Pistons, or game of basketball, is not me, but …
khandor
Khandor, if you were Kelly Dwyer, or Kevin Pelton, or Dave Berri, or Shoals, or anyone in the basketball blogosphere (stat or not stat based) who consistently has really insightful things to say, I’d be willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. But, you’ve basically just regurgitated old-school NBA conventional wisdom. Which is fine, but you getting all high and mighty is kinda silly… If you were as brilliant a basketball mind as you purport to be, you wouldn’t be wasting your time responding to me on Pistons blog, you’d be coaching the Raptors or something.
Gabe F-B
What KD does is what KD does; the same goes for Kevin Pelton, Dr. Berri, Shoals, and scores of other NBA analysts.
You are certainly free to hold the belief that what they are telling you is “really insightful”, if you wish.
I’m not contributing comments to this site for the purpose of putting down those other individuals, or their hard work.
If you think that what I do on-line is simply a regurgitation of “old-school” conventional wisdom then so be it. Nothing which I say or do is likely to ever change your mind. Likewise with your belief that “the best basketball minds” today are in fact coaching one of the 30 teams in the NBA today.
All sorts of different people are active on-line today; some are novices, some are experts, and some are somewhere in between. The real trick in life is being able to assess accurately which one is which.
khandor
tangible?
A coach whose team consistently displays coordinated movement which looks like this:
http://khandorssportsblog.com/wordpress/2010/01/25/5-men-on-a-single-string-kudos-to-larry-brown/
is someone who fits the bill as a good coach, IMO.
Although I know this is not what you’re looking for …
There are a great many variables to consider when assessing the quality of a specific basketball coach and, unfortunately, there is no easy-bake recipe which encompasses all of them … although a sound place to start would include, at least, the following list of broad categories:
e.g. leadership skills/attributes; ability to teach the game [i.e. strategies & tactics, skills & concepts] effectively to others; X’s and O’s; understanding of team dynamics-interpersonal psychology/sociology; creating a whole which is greater than the sum of its part; maximizing performance relative to available resources; etc.
PS. How each of these categories is broken down further and specific what unit of measurement is used to evaluate each one is a different subject altogether, and not answerable properly in the available space.
khandor
A coach whose team consistently displays coordinated movement which looks like this is someone who fits the bill as a good coach, IMO.
khandor, you have done this multiple times now. You’re misrepresenting what I’m saying. I’m NOT saying that LB is not a good coach; on the contrary, LB is a great coach. Are you forgetting that he coached here and brought us a championship? We know how good of a coach he is.
What I am saying is that no coach, no matter how good, can turn this mess of a roster into a playoff team. Could LB add a few wins to a team like Detroit? Probably. But a few wins just isn’t enough.
I’m saying this: players affect the game more than coaches do.
Take last night’s game (if you saw it) against Orlando. Our coach drew up a fantastic play — two of them, actually — that put our players in position to make game-winning plays. Our players botched it, plain and simple.
Coach Kuester couldn’t have done anything differently. Larry Brown couldn’t have drawn up anything that would have worked better. Ben Gordon simply didn’t perform.
Insert Kobe Bryant, LeBron James, or Dwayne Wade, and perhaps the outcome is different. Give us better players, and we’re a better team.
khandor, this team is 15 and 31 — Larry Brown is a great coach, but even he can’t make up for players who consistently fail to make plays.
On top of all that, Joe Dumars said all of this this summer. He went on the record publicly to say that we weren’t at a place where we needed a “top notch” coach — he phrased it something like “we’re back in the Rick Carlisle era…”
re: Until Joe D fixes his coaching problem
Are you saying Joe D should be working on another coaching change?
It won’t be for long when one of these coaching changes is going to cost Joe D his job.
more than one option
Changing coaches is always an option in the NBA. Changing the coach might be necessary, in this case, if Kuester doesn’t share the same/similar philosophy of basketball as Joe D, which might well be the situation here, given his use of this group of players.
A second option, however, is for Joe D to begin to work with Kuester in a more intensified way, in order to bring about a better understanding of their different basketball philosophies.
Joe D is the Captain of the ship in Detroit, and if his first Lieutenant is not doing what he wants, or achieving the results he’s looking for, then, his first two options are to [A] cut him loose [once again] or [B] work with him in different way than he’s worked with him to this point.
Maintaining the status quo, however, should not be an option, in this instance.
khandor
“I’m giving Stuckey somewhat of a pass tonight. He played like crap and took some really stupid jump shots, but to my eyes, it looked like he was semi-frozen out of the offense by Tay/Rip. Strife is brewing.”
I’m glad I’m not the only one who thought this, I was beginning to think I’m getting paranoid. This is not the first game of that either. Add to that the fact that Tay got into an argument with Kuester (still don’t know why) and it seems our veterans, Ben excluded, are getting uneasy.
This team ain't comin' back...
Looking at the schedule in mid-December, it seemed pretty clear that the following month would tell if this could be a playoff team. The rough early schedule was history or the next 30 days were filled with teams not only very beatable, but also in direction competition with the Pistons for the coveted (?) 7th and 8th spots in the East.
In the next six weeks, the Pistons play a total of two games against their Eastern Conference competition. (I’m not including Miami or better or the hapless Nets in that category.) Over this past month?: A combined 2-9 vs. Philly, Indiana, Wahington, New York, Toronto, and Chicago. Wow.
There’s no way else to look at it—this is a very bad team. Two wins out of eleven against a handful of sub-.500 teams.
There seem to be few reasons not to get rid of the veteran assets at this point, short of waiting to receive better value. But the team as constructed, even when Gorden comes back seems unlikely to even get to .500.
Be interesting to see if the players start to pack it in, seeing as any sort of meaning to the remaining games is very unlikely. Shouldn’t be hard for Daye, Jerebko, and others getting their first taste of the NBA to keep playing hard. But this has got to seem pointless to Rip and Tay. And even Big Ben might be wondering why he’s playing hard for the league minimum and for a team with little to play for.
And Kriz, Atkins ends up having to play more than any one would like with two of the four guards down. But to limit a hot-shooting Austin Daye to seven minutes, while giving Atkins twenty-one is bizarre and inexcusable. Possibly in a tight 4th quarter game, you go with the vet, despite how much better the rookie has looked. But when the game is over by the end of the first quarter, what can Kuester be thinking? (Perhaps a clash with JoD? K sees ATKINS as the point guard of the future…)
by MrHappyMushroom on Jan 23, 2010 1:32 AM EST reply actions
I understand Daye needs more minutes...
…but who else is going to give Stuckey a rest at the 1? As of right now (until Bynum comes back) Stuckey is our only PG (besides Chucky) and we don’t need him playing a full 48 minutes (people can hardly stand him getting the 35 + minutes he receives).
I just don’t see how we are going to substitue Akins minutes (without having another PG on the roster) and just simply hand them over to Daye…unless, people want Rip running the point and I don’t think that’s a good idea.
I just don’t see how we are going to substitue Akins minutes (without having another PG on the roster) and just simply hand them over to Daye
It really shouldn’t be too hard. If Stuckey is our PG, then we only need to replace the minutes when he is on the bench. Last night he played 35 minutes, leaving 13 minutes to fill. Atkins, however, played 21 total minutes. Take the extra 8 minutes away from Atkins when he was on the court with Stuckey, and instead give them to Daye. Now Daye has played 16 minutes, Chucky has played 13, and I’m not yelling loudly at my computer and getting confused looks from my gf. Everyone’s a winner
by Gabe F-B on Jan 23, 2010 9:47 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Yes, more Daye-light
Especially, since he’s got the best shooting mechanics from long range of anyone on a team desperate for outside shooters.
by Quick Darshan on Jan 23, 2010 2:38 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I agree.
I’m just saying Atkins is almost guaranteed to get around 15-20 minutes until more of our guards return.
Daye is going to have to wait for more minutes to come unless we cut down on JJ’s minutes or play Daye at the two.
Correct choice
Playing Daye at the OG position, as Rip’s primary back-up, when Ben Gordon is out due to injury, is the better way to go with this year’s team.
i.e.
STARTERS: Stuckey + Hamilton + Prince + 2 Bigs [Wilcox? & Wallace?]
KEY SUBS: Atkins + Daye + Jerebko + 1 or 2 Bigs [Villanueva & Maxiell/Brown?]
khandor
Tradeshaun Prince
"We’re going to turn this team around 360 degrees." –Jason Kidd
by Skylar on Jan 23, 2010 2:45 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
If we really are 'teh suckage'
The only thing I can think Tay is pissed off with is his minutes. Maybe he wanted to play the entire fourth to make up for lost time? As far as I am concerned this team has been handed to Stuckey by JoD (whether we like it or not) and the other shoe really needs to drop in regards to the masterplan.
In my opinion, JJ give us more than Tay at this stage and I’m happy with that. If JoD has any sense, he uses Tay for a big guy or future pick. We won’t get any worse.
Trade Tay Now!
Yeah, I know, Charlie V sucks on D, and Coach Q is still learning, but every time Tay comes back to the line up, everything turns to mud. I love him, but it’s time to move him. He got a more than fair contract extension, a championship, and he’s been to the play-offs every year (except this one)- we don’t owe him anything but a change of scenery.
by The Real Rob K on Jan 23, 2010 10:25 AM EST reply actions
He can always come back before he retires.
Joe let every starter from the title squad go except Rip, and he’d be dealt by now as well except for the contract.. and he’ll likely still go.
The Kuester beef is very distressing. We cannot have that shit going on.
"We’re going to turn this team around 360 degrees." –Jason Kidd
Most depressing loss of the season
Not just because of the relatively poor play. Look, the Pistons are still undermanned, and even when at full strength have a problematic front court roster. They can win, bascially, when they go all out at least most of the game, and that is frankly hard to sustain. But that was a really bad loss to a really bad team. Yes I know they recently got Granger back, but the final score, as they say, wasn’t as close as the game was. Maybe more importantly, guys like Tay — whom I love to death — are supposed to help, and the argument is a bad sign.
Weird that this would happen right after the most satisfying win of the year.
Inexcusable
This is my personal opinion, and others are of course invited to call me out on this if I’m overstating it.
It’s never okay for a player to publicly lash out at his coach.
Sure, losing breeds frustration. Injuries breed frustration. Getting outplayed by rookies breeds frustration. I sympathize with Prince. However, it’s never okay to publicly disgrace your coach (and ultimately your franchise). I would like to think Tay is better than that, and I would like to think Q has enough balls to put Tay in his place and ensure that this doesn’t happen again from anyone.
Losing sucks, but I’ll still cheer for these guys. Losing your team to whining, bitching, and shouting matches is enough for me to quit pulling for a guy … even a guy like Tay.
by brgulker on Jan 23, 2010 2:15 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Agreed
By this point, I’d changed the channel so I didn’t see it. But, I was shocked as Tay, to me, has always been the model of professionalism. I’ve always hoped we could keep him, but the more I see of Austin Daye, the more I think they should look to move Prince.
by Quick Darshan on Jan 23, 2010 2:42 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
If you missed it...
NBA.com has it well documented: http://www.nba.com/video/games/pistons/2010/01/22/0020900629_ind_det_recap.nba/index.html
It’s at about the 1:46 mark.
It looked like Q-Star was about to get up in Prince’s face and say, “OH?!?” but the other coach held him back.
by garrettelliott on Jan 23, 2010 7:23 PM EST up reply actions
Agree 100%
This is a much younger team than in the past few years and Tayshaun is supposed to be a leader. Getting into it with the coach like that sets an awful example. I didn’t see it, but to hear quotes like “they were yelling at each other” and that he had to be restrained, is worrisome.
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He handled it pretty poorly in the moment..
However he shut those reporters up in the post game immediately.
And when asked if things are cool between him and his coach, Prince said “Of course”.
That’s exactly what needs to be done after a vet loses his cool in a game like that.
He gets a pass from me. Things are different if this is a sign of things to come, but never once until now have I ever questioned his professionalism. One outburst isn’t enough to make him a locker room Pariah.
"We’re going to turn this team around 360 degrees." –Jason Kidd
Let's all just calm down...
Are we forgetting we’re talking about trading an olympic gold medalist? We’re talking about trading one of our captains who was an iron man up until this season. Prince is the mentor to our batch of rookies whos’ natural positions all happen to be SF. We just can’t trade Tayshaun, he’s too important to this team, said Langois.
I disagree.
Tay is only going to take away minutes at the Pistons deepest position at SF. He is 2-3 years past his prime and usually struggles scoring at all against good teams. With his obvious left hand and much slowed first step, which was never that fast in the first place, his value is on the decline. Many people cursed me when I said they should have traded him before last year because I could see a decline in his game and knew his value would never be higher.
Last year Prince was noticeably a step slower on defence which use to be his forte. He doesn’t block a lot of shots(has had big ones yes), but could find a way to bother players with his length. He simply isn’t quick enough anymore. I would much rather have all his minutes go to Jerebko, Daye, Summers and even a few to Rip at SF.
Who dat? Nobody will remember or care after this week. Go Vikes!
"the Pistons deepest position at SF"
Of all the weird things that have happened in the last 9 months in the NBA, this has to be one of the most surprising.
Charlie V thinks he is a SF half the time too!
Who dat? Nobody will remember or care after this week. Go Vikes!
I was just joking
I think we need to move Tay. I was just noting the absurdity that everyone’s favorite Pistons-paid propagandist might try to sell. (Blaha would be proud of that alliteration)
10-4. I wasent sure. I've had enough Tay.
Who dat? Nobody will remember or care after this week. Go Vikes!
Langoly, Langois la, Langa, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.
Who dat? Nobody will remember or care after this week. Go Vikes!
Tay is my favorite Piston...
But I think we need to get whatever we can for him. The fact that he’s essentially been a non-entity this season has lessened any fondness for the guy.
I’d just hate to see him end up somewhere evil.
Plus, all of our big victories have come..
…when he hasn’t even suited up. The rookies are getting done with out him and they are doing a great job.
11/03 Magic
11/29 Atlanta
12/10 Denver
1/15 New Orleans
and more recently: 1/20 Boston
I feel embarrassed, looking at this game from a Pacers' fan POV
Are we really the one of the NBA’s worst?
We got blown out by a team that considers the Nets, Bobcats, & T’wolves “big” victories…
Then on top of that I just named some of our biggest wins of the season…sigh.
Joe Dumars as Kevin McHale
Yes, Detroit is literally the worst.
Joe Dumars was afraid that he would ‘pull a Jack McCloskey’ and hold onto his vets too long, watching them spiral into a span of years where the funk was too funky.
So, he held onto his vets too long. Then, he added a twist, and blew up the team by trading the Isiah away for an irradiated midget sociopath and a carton of smokes. In the summer, he blew his wad on a tree with no bark on his body and another irradiated midget without the personality disorder.
Good. Bad. I'm the guy with the gun.
by sauce1977 on Jan 23, 2010 7:22 PM EST up reply actions 5 recs
Funny thing is
Had Rip gotten into a shouting match with Kuester last night, certain un-named DBBers would be throwing chairs and calling for his head (well, more than they already do).
We have here a couple of guys who can get a number of different stats
I’d be interesting to me to find the win/loss record for the pistons with Tay (without Rip), Rip (without Tay) and Tay + Rip
Anyway I could get that without going through the roster game by game?
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