Another Loss Despite Some Fight: Blazers 97, Pistons 93
by Packey on Jan 24, 2010 1:55 AM EST
in Detroit Pistons Recaps
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What Happened:
The Blazers jumped out to an 18-point lead in the first half behind a career night from MARTEL WEBSTER (28 points and 6-13 from 3-point range). The Pistons scored six of the last eight points in the second quarter and stormed all the way back in the third quarter, actually taking the lead at one point.
Near the end of the third, Juwan Howard took exception to a "flagrant" foul committed by Charlie Villanueva on Rudy Fernandez, which triggered a little scuffle. (Was I the only one who thought Rudy should've won a best supporting actor award for that?) Anyway, both Juwan Howard and the "half nuts" Villanueva, according to the Blazers' version of Mike & Mike, had to be restrained. It resulted in a double-T and a flagrant on CV, but both remained in the game. The show would go on...
Pistons and Blazers went back and forth in the final frame, but some late mistakes from the Pistons veterans cost them. Ben Wallace had a somewhat out-of-control foul on Andre Miller when the shot-clock was running out that rewarded Miller, one of the best free-throw shooters in the game, with two freebies. Tayshaun Prince then committed a turnover when the Pistons had a chance to take the lead with less than 25 seconds left. Down three, Richard Hamilton hurried a three with more than enough time left on the clock to get a better look. Prince hustled down the rebound, which allowed for an open look from CV, but he clanked a three.
A couple missed free-throws from the Blazers, a missed three from Stuckey, a converted free-throw for the Blazers and a missed half-court shot from Charlie V. later, the Blazers walked out of The Palace with a four-point win.
The Good:
The comeback was good, especially when most fans had already chalked the game up as another wash before halftime. Richard Hamilton had another solid game (and cut down the turnovers). He finished with 25 points on 6-16 shooting (11-11 from the FT line), nine assists, and five boards.
The Bad:
The sluggish start. The Pistons outscored the Blazers by 10 in the second half, but needing to come back from 18 down leaves a team with only so much energy to finish off the comeback.
The outlook for Tayshaun Prince probably falls under 'the bad.' He scored six points on 2-6 shooting in 32+ minutes, while the rookie that should have Prince looking over his shoulder, Jonas Jerebko, played better in his 26+ minutes.
The Roger Kint Unsung Hero:
Chris F. Wilcox put up a pretty (surprisingly) solid game. He had eight points, eight rebounds, and a steal in just 17+ minutes (that's 17 & 17 PER36). He was a second best plus-3 on the team. Coming in a close second is Rodney Stuckey (20 points despite starting slow).
The Takeaway:
Moral victories are for perennial losers (see the Detroit Lions), so I'm not ready to give the Pistons one here. Kuester was visibly a lot more vocal in the 2nd half, so it makes me wonder where that intensity was in the first half (from him AND the players). Exactly how long does it take for a team to actually figure it out?
On the somewhat bright side, the Pistons are still only 5 1/2 out of the 8th spot in the playoffs and play the Nets twice within the next two weeks! The Pistons have until Wednesday to mentally and physically prep for another game when they take on Memphis. Wins are becoming more and more essential.
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A far superior recap
No, you’re not the only one who thinks Rudy’s a good actor…Ty for a good recap
by bpcruiza on Jan 24, 2010 2:01 AM EST via mobile reply actions
Idea for Villanueva
Think we can install one of those electronic dog fences around the three point line on the offensive end of the court? (Probably could only get away with it at home, but it’s a start…) Somebody’s job—probably Big Ben—will be to push his ass inside the line as the Pistons come on the court. It’s at this point that the electronic dog fence is activated and every single time Sheed Jr. (minus the defense) tries to move outside to three land, he gets zapped and scoots back toward the basket.
Seriously, if I read again of another 1-9 from three point land…
by MrHappyMushroom on Jan 24, 2010 2:14 AM EST reply actions
Can't watch it...
I live in Burma, where little-to-no American sport is televised and the censored internet is kept too slow for streams.
So, I could try watching, but I would fail in the endeavor. Thanks for the tip, though.
by MrHappyMushroom on Jan 24, 2010 3:46 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
Unsung Hero
How about the Pistons trainer as unsung hero of the night. When that fight breaks out, it spills over a pile of three small children, and not one player bothers to help or even try to avoid them. The only concern shown towards them was one of the pistons trainers, who ducks in, covers them up, and guides them out of the fray. Kudos to him, and boo to the rest of the players who are too caught up in doing something stupid to think about the consequences.
by doh102 on Jan 24, 2010 10:02 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
Why Did The Pistons Dump Afflalo?
Another excellent game last night. He is averaging 9ppp and 3apg shooting 48% and 43% behind the arc to say nothing of his defense.
The Pistons fans who said Afflalo would never make it in the NBA because he couldn’t jump are eating crow.. Give me Afflalo over Ben Gordon for sure and probably even Hamilton at this point in Rip’s career.
Chauncy knew what he was doing when he insisted that Denver get Afflalo.
Dumars you got a hole in your screen door.
The Good - Say What?
The Good:
When the Pistons have fallen this far this fast based on the their GM’s brilliant plan to not have to start from near the bottom and entirely retool their is no good.
Based on Dumar’s drafting history I would say that if the Pistons get a top 5 draft picking spot that there is an even chance that Dumars will draft another Darko.
Dumars Coaching Carousel
Newton’s fourth law.
The more frequently you trade the worse you do. “Warren Buffett”
I think a big part of the problem that the Pistons are having is Dumars coach of the year plan. This really messes with the veterans and is just dumb all the way around.
Even the Washington Gunslingers have a good chance of finishing around of the Pistons.
Dumars never should have dumped Saunders or for that matter he should have tried to keep Brown over Mr. D’s suggestion to part ways with Brown.
In any case. Until the Pistons can get some continuity in their head coach they ain’t going anywhere but to the lottery.
There was no retaining Larry Brown in Detroit.
He flew out of state to meet with a division rival during a run at championship.
He decided his time in Detroit was up.
"We’re going to turn this team around 360 degrees." –Jason Kidd
by Skylar on Jan 24, 2010 10:52 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Kuester adding his $0.02 to the debate over the importance of Stuck vs. CV?
From his postgame quotes:
To be honest with you, the way we have played, and I thought he started it, but the 24 minutes that Stuckey plays when he plays at that level, we’ve got a chance. As he goes, we go, in a lot of ways. When he’s aggressive and he’s doing things with pace then we’ve got a chance.
Also, Kuester repeats words and phrases in odd ways.
Why start now?
Just kidding, man. Nothing but love.
by Birdman84 on Jan 24, 2010 12:28 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
he's right
when will bynum and ben gordon are out, stuckey is absolutely our most important player. it’s not being an asshole to gloat on the, gulks— I’ve said before that if you subtract any one of our guards, the remaining three become more important. hell, it makes chucky atkins way more important than he actually is to the team.
by Mike Payne on Jan 24, 2010 2:14 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
“hell, it makes chucky atkins way more important than he actually is to the team.”
And that’s just really, really, really scary.
by garrettelliott on Jan 24, 2010 2:15 PM EST up reply actions
Prince
I’ve noticed that It’s been a pattern lately; when there’s Prince in the game, Pistons lose!
Blazer fan here
A couple thoughts on the game. The CV foul was overblown, but with Rudy just coming back from surgery and the physical play before it happened it shouldn’t have been unexpected that exception might be taken.
Rip looks very unhappy out there as does Prince. They look to have tuned their coach out. During one time out I saw Rip walk right past him and wave him off as Kuester tried to engage him.
You obviously should fire Dumars. Darko/Billups. One of those mistakes ok, two?
Unfortunately for your team I see your future much as ours was after the 2000 WCF. You have been good for to long and never get the chance to get a new young star. This team will have to be blown up and rebuilt, but as a Blazer fan I have seen it done. Worst record in the league in 05.
Last game of a 4 game roadtrip, as banged up as we are, I expected you guys to win. I think we were very fortunate to have Martell have a career night.
Just talking ball hope no offense was taken
by eclecticspider on Jan 24, 2010 12:08 PM EST reply actions
Rip looks very unhappy out there as does Prince. They look to have tuned their coach out. During one time out I saw Rip walk right past him and wave him off as Kuester tried to engage him.
This is an interesting observation, from a Blazers’ fan perspective. It was clear that the veterans turn on MCIAFI last season. If they’ve already done the same this season (and it’s not clear if they have, IMO, or if it’s just the losing that’s causing strife), then the problem is not the coach — the problem is the players.
I said this in last night’s thread. There’s no excuse for publicly yelling at and disgracing your coach. If I’m Joe Dumars, I don’t tolerate that, even from an established vet like Prince.
One question for you, eclectivspider: do the Blazers have any interest in Tay?
by brgulker on Jan 24, 2010 12:11 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I know at one time we did
But we feel as if we have a young Prince in Batum.
Also I don’t think we want to make any moves until we see our team play together healthy. I do know that there was a lot of Prince talk during the off season
by eclecticspider on Jan 24, 2010 12:13 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, once we got Batum, that option was gone.
He was Portland fans #1 wanted player before we got Batum, though.
In Bayless I trust.
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><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><>
Rip and Tay have done nothing but win ever...
I think it’s A) really hard for them to lose and B)at times not be out there on the court when younger players may be establshing themselves as better options in the fourth.
I think some frustration is starting to spill over after having spent a large part of their careers doing nothing but win.
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My Blog: Inside A Head
Respectfully disagree
If …
- Prince never shouted/yelled back at Carlisle
- Prince never shouted/yelled back at Brown
- Prince never shouted/yelled back at Saunders
- Prince never shouted/yelled back at Curry
but …
- Prince shouted back at Kuester
then, in all likelihood, the present problem is not rooted in a defect with Mr. Prince.
khandor
If I yelled at my boss in front of all of my co-workers, there would be ramifications.
Analogously, the coach is the boss of any given team. Players have no business initiating shouting matches with their coaches anywhere, especially not on the bench.
You’re essentially arguing that Kuester deserved it, which is ridiculous. Even if he did, Tay’s actions were still wrong, because of the tone and context.
by brgulker on Jan 25, 2010 2:40 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Which is all well and good except that ...
brgulker,
1. The NBA environment is not similar to your own work environment. Is it?
e.g. Do you earn a salary which is quadruple times that of your boss’?
2. What has given you the impression that it was, in fact, Mr. Prince who “initiated” this exchange?
e.g. Was Prince not “reacting” to what was said to him by Coach Kuester, in the first place?
3. At no point did I say/suggest that Coach Kuester “deserved” to be treated in this way.
What I actually said is clearly stated in the comment above.
khandor
Prince yelled at Kuester first
… when Prince came to the bench, that’s when he yelled at Kuester, who gave it back momentarily before going back to the huddle to give instructions to the backups.
— Freep
Prince began shouting at Kuester, who fired back before going back into the huddle to give instructions to the players going into the game.
— The Oakland Press
Research your arguments. There are actually facts at play here, not just your opinion of what happened.
And salary is irrelevant. No matter what they make, Kuester is Prince’s superior, as is a boss to an employee in the working environment.
You are indeed implying that Kuester deserved it because you think Prince was retaliating, but since that’s not what happened your argument is moot. Therefore, your conclusion in your comment that you point BrGulker back to is flat out wrong.
Please see this .
Detroit Bad Boys- SB Nation's Detroit Pistons Blog
Twitter
by Packey on Jan 25, 2010 10:56 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
What the reports from the Detroit Free Press …
http://www.freep.com/article/20100122/SPORTS03/100123001/?imw=Y
and the Oakland Press …
http://www.theoaklandpress.com/articles/2010/01/24/sports/doc4b5bab6748ec0363687463.txt
have to say about this incident concern the work of Vince Ellis and Dave Pemberton, respectively.
http://www.nba.com/video/games/pistons/2010/01/22/0020900629_ind_det_recap.nba/index.html
Here’s what I wrote initially:
“- Prince shouted back at Kuester”
Here’s what I wrote as a follow-up comment:
"2. What has given you the impression that it was, in fact, Mr. Prince who "initiated" this exchange?
e.g. Was Prince not ‘reacting’ to what was said to him by Coach Kuester, in the first place?"
#1. There is no dispute from me that Tay Prince, in fact, “yelled back” at John Kuester.
#2. What I wrote, in a sense, asked 2 specific questions of brgulker [btw, not of anyone else, who has chosen to chime in here of their volition]:
i.e. “What has given you the impression that it was Prince who initiated this exchange?” … and, “Was Prince not ‘reacting’ to what was said to him by Coach Kuester, in the first place?”
At no time did I say that it’s a fact Coach Kuester initiated this exchange by yelling at Tay Prince first.
At no time did I say that it’s a fact Coach Kuester responded to the “yelling back” by Tay Prince by “yelling back” at Tay Prince.
If you actually read the 2 news reports which are cited here, what you should be able to see is that each account describes the scene as [basically]:
- Prince and Kuester “yelling at each other” during a time-out
and/or
- Kuester subbing out his “starters” with the score out of hand in the 4th quarter and then “Prince yelling at” him during a time-out
What is left out of these specific reports, however, are particular details like:
- the time-out in question occurred at the 7:16 mark of the 4th quarter, when the 5 Pistons on the floor were Stuckey, Hamilton, Prince, Maxiell and Villanueva
- during this time-out:
- Daye replaced Prince
- Summers replaced Hamilton
- Jerebko replaced Villanueva
- Maxiell remained on the floor
- Stuckey remained on the floor
- John Kuester rose from his seat at the 7:50 mark to signal Daye to replace Prince, after which the Pistons then:
- ran 20+ seconds of half-court offense
before the following sequence occurred:
- 07:23 Maxiell Layup Shot: Missed Block: Hibbert (3 BLK)
07:21 Hamilton Rebound (Off:1 Def:4)
07:17 Prince 3pt Shot: Missed
07:16 Maxiell Rebound (Off:2 Def:1)
Price Foul : Shooting (1 PF) 07:16
07:16 Team Timeout : Regular
07:16 Prince Substitution replaced by Daye
07:16 Hamilton Substitution replaced by Summers
07:16 Villanueva Substitution replaced by Jerebko
http://www.nba.com/games/20100122/INDDET/gameinfo.html
- What may have actually been said by John Kuester to Tayshaun Prince [and/or other Pistons] as they came over to the bench at the beginning stages of this time-out [07:16], to which Tay Prince may have been “re-acting” when he first began to “yell back” at his coach.
I was not in attendance at this game.
I have no idea what may or may not have actually been said out loud by either John Kuester or Tay Prince as this time-out was beginning/happening, in the aftermath of the Pistons pulling 3 [and not, in fact, all 5] of their starters in the 4th quarter when down by 23 points.
What I would also contend, however, is that:
NEITHER do the reporters from the Detroit Free Press and the Oakland Press who wrote these specific news accounts … that can certainly be “interpreted” as saying/implying there was nothing said out loud by John Kuester which might have provoked the heated response he subsequently got from Tay Prince; and,ii. Based on my own experience, when a coach removes 3 [not all 5] of his starters from the game in this specific manner and ONLY 1 of the 3 players then proceeds to “yell back” at him, it is frequently the case that this coach also said a specific comment out loud … to either 1 player or the group of 3 … to which this 1 player took exception.
I have no first-hand knowledge of what may have actually been said between John Kuester and Tay Prince during this specific exchange, but … based on the content of the video clip above … it might be most appropriate, in this instance, NOT to simply ASSUME that there was in fact nothing which was said by John Kuester, as this time-out began, to which Tay Prince was responding when he first began to “yell back” at his coach.
#3. At no point did I imply anything about John Kuester “deserving” to be treated in this way by Tay Prince … whether or not Tay Prince was either “re-acting to something which was said by John Kuester” or was “initiating” this exchange himself.
As I’ve said before … there can be a big difference between what some people may think are facts and what the actual facts of a matter really are.
khandor
so many assumptions in this that it's hard to read.
My Music: Now on last.fm!!
My Blog: Pitching Mechanics
but your special khandor...
Thanks for always giving me a chuckle.
My Music: Now on last.fm!!
My Blog: Pitching Mechanics
madpoopz
Please feel free to point out the different “assumptions” which you happen to see in this comment.
khandor
well...
you assumed all of this…
- Prince never shouted/yelled back at Carlisle
- Prince never shouted/yelled back at Brown
- Prince never shouted/yelled back at Saunders
- Prince never shouted/yelled back at Curry
Back it up khandor. Prove that Prince never once shouted/yelled back at any of these coaches. Since you are khandor, I expect you just say how I am interpreting the direct quote.
Here’s just something plain old stupid.
- Prince shouted back at Kuester
then, in all likelihood, the present problem is not rooted in a defect with Mr. Prince.
Here you first assume that Prince didn’t initiate the confrontation since “Prince shouted back at Kuester” (that’s a direct quote of you khandor, indisputable fact). Second you assume that therefore the “present problem is not rooted in a defect with Mr. Prince” (another direct quote of you khandor, you can’t dispute it).
So now your gonna reply back to this comment saying how you never said any of this is fact but in doing such admit that everything you said were assumptions. But at least you’re getting your wish Khandor, I’m answering your question of me and at the same time managing to make me waste my time with it.
My Music: Now on last.fm!!
My Blog: Strike Three Mechanics
No, madpoopz, you don’t get it. See, what you’re doing is assuming khandor was assuming that, and you’re assumption is based on an incorrect assumption about what khandor’s assumption really was. Khandor’s assumption, and it was an assumption based on years of hard won basketball acumen based assumptions, was assuming something completely different, and from you’re assumption about his assumption, it’s clear you don’t know, and/or don’t have the elite basketball acumen or knowledge to know, what that assumption is/was.
by Gabe F-B on Jan 27, 2010 12:20 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
madpoopz
It is illogical to attempt to prove that a specific occurrence has “never, ever” happened. Hopefully, you can understand the correctness of this simple fact.
What I see happening in the video clip provided is this:
- Prince “saying” something to Kuester
- Kuester “saying” something to Prince
- Prince “yelling back” at Kuester
There is no telling what words were exchanged between the two prior to the start of the video clip.
If you see something different than that, then, please go ahead and say what that is.
Thanks for pointing out the assumptions which you believe I’ve made, in this instance.
khandor
Most of us also watched the entire game.
We watched Tayshaun stink up the court for the majority of the game, and then he got benched.
Then Tay starts shouting.
It doesn’t take rocket science to figure out that Tay lost his cool because he wasn’t playing good, his coach wasn’t happy, and he got yanked in favor of a rookie. He made a mistake and was in the wrong.
To continue defending him when you didn’t see the game is confusing to me. The man made a mistake, one that shouldn’t happen. Now, he and his coach have made nice, and it’s over… except here, where you’re defending a guy who’s obviously in the wrong.
brgulker
What I’ve said runs along the following lines:
1. The NBA environment is not the same as your own work environment.
2. Tayshaun Prince hasn’t yelled at his other coaches.
3. Tayshaun Prince yelled at John Kuester in this instance.
4. In all likelihood … based on my experience AND what I see when I look at the clip of this incident and review the Full Play-By-Play, etc. … John Kuester said something out loud which initiated/precipitated this yelling exchange with Tayshaun Prince.
5. In all likelihood, the defect in this instance is not rooted in Tayshaun Prince but in John Kuester and what he actually said, on this occasion, to set his player off in this way.
i.e. If John Kuester does not say that same thing, or something close to it, again, it is most likely that Tayshaun Prince will not display this same type of behaviour toward him either.
If you think that my way of thinking, in this instance, is a type of “defending” of Tayshaun Prince, then, so be it.
khandor
5. In all likelihood, the defect in this instance is not rooted in Tayshaun Prince but in John Kuester and what he actually said, on this occasion, to set his player off in this way.
The problem is, there’s nothing to support this conclusion. We don’t know what coach Q said.
We Piston fans, however, who regularly watch the games, watch post-game press conferences, and follow the Pistons in the online and printed press know that Kuester is a class act.
1. The NBA environment is not the same as your own work environment.
Would you be defending Ron Artest if he blew up at Phil Jackson?
No. You have a bias against Kuester, because you don’t think he’s a good coach.
brgulker,
1. As a Pistons fan you SHOULD already know that:
- John Kuester and Tayshaun Prince are BOTH class acts
- Tayshaun Prince has no prior history of yelling back at his coach
2. Are you really trying to make an effective comparison between:
Tayshaun Prince and Ron Artest [“crazy pills”]
and
John Kuester and Phil Jackson [No. 1 All-time]?
3. I have no bias against John Kuester, whatsoever.
What I have, however, are plenty of indications that John Kuester is not a top notch NBA head coach, to this point in his career.
khandor
The Artest — Jackson comparison was random at best. I was assuming that you would call Jackson a great coach.
Take Derek Fisher instead of Ron Artest, and I Think you get the sense of what I was trying to say.
brgulker
IMO,
The comparisons you’ve made, thus far, are not appropriate, as John Kuester simply does not compare to a coach of Phil Jackson’s stature.
If you want to make this type of comparison with some sort of validity it would need to involve individuals along the following lines:
Tay Prince and John Kuester
in relationship with
e.g. Luol Deng and Vinnie Del Negro
except that even this is a relatively poor comparison, as [i] Luol Deng has yet to be a major part of a NBA Title-winning team which has made 7 consecutive trips to the EC Finals and [ii] John Kuester has yet to coach his own to a spot in the EC Playoffs.
As such, it’s my preference to compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges.
Instead of also giving the benefit of doubt to a player with the reputation and accomplishments of Tay Prince, what you and others are doing in this specific instance is only giving the benefit of the doubt to John Kuester.
If you cannot see how that might be considered slightly off target in this case, then, you are right … we might just have to agree to disagree about this topic.
khandor
You're missing my point
If a player that was respected blew up at a coach who you think is “top notch,” you would not rush to that player’s defense.
That’s my theory.
It doesn’t require an identical comparison.
If Scottie Pippen yelled publicly at Phil Jackson while on national TV, would you defend Scottie or Phil?
brgulker
If you’re willing to disregard any comparison to the Prince/Kuester situation and simply want to know what my opinion would have been on a verbal confrontation between Pip and Coach Jackson, then, that’s no problem, whatsoever.
Dr. Phil would only have said something to instigate a reaction from Pip for a specific reason.ii. As such, I would lay “blame” for the matter at the feet of neither individual.
“Instigating” specific reactions from their players is a big part of what elite level coaches do, on a daily basis, all around the world.
iii. When a coach like Dr. Phil pulls stuff like this, he’s doing it for a reason, and he would never ever lay the blame on his own player for “reacting” to what was said to him in the first place, in a vociferous way. He would have been expecting this type of reaction and would have gone back at Pip in a way which would have accomplished 2 inter-related things:
a. Recognized Pip’s right to vent, in response to what was actually happening; and,
Brought proper closure to the exchange by laying out explicitly what he felt was the problem, in this instance, and informing that player in no uncertain terms exactly what his “options” were going forward from there.Great coaches are great communicators, who know how to get and then keep their players’ attentions focused on the right things, in the first place.
They don’t start to say something, then, stop, then try to sweep it under the table as though it never happend at all.
Great coaches engage in this type of behaviour modification with their players every day of the week.
khandor
You just proved my point.
If Phil Jackson and Scottie Pippen were the two people involved, you would completely dodge the issue (not lay the blame anywhere), because you respect both of those individuals.
In this case, however, you don’t respect Kuester; therefore, you blame him for the incident (i.e., the fault does not lie in Mr. Prince, et al).
You don’t respect Kuester (even though you’ve hardly watched the Pistons all season); therefore, everything that is wrong in Detroit — including childlike outbursts from players — can ultimately be laid at the feet of the coach.
not quite
A lack of respect for John Kuester doesn’t have anything to do with my opinion on this matter.
I respect what Pip & Coach Jackson have accomplished in the NBA.
I respect what Tayshaun Prince has accomplished in the NBA.
I respect what John Kuester has accomplished in the NBA.
Do you think that John Kuester expected Tayshaun Prince to “yell at him” when he took Prince out at that point in the 4th quarter?
Based on how Kuester reacted in that video clip, my best guess is that he did not.
IMO, Phil Jackson would not have done what John Kuester did, in the way that John Kuester did it, with the final results that John Kuester ended up achieving.
An elite level coach is in control of a situation like that and is willing to accept responsibility for the reactions of his players to what he is trying to accomplish with his team. An elite level coach does not seek to lay the blame at the feet of his player.
[In this instance I am not saying that John Kuester has attempted to do this BUT only that those Pistons fans who are attempting to put the blame for this incident on Tay Prince, are falling prey to thi very infraction.]
khandor
There are only a handful or relevant facts, as I see them.
1) The coach is always the player’s superior.
2) The coach has the right and responsibility to offer advice, correction, etc., etc. to his players at any point during the game — and sometimes an emphatic tone is required.
3) Tayshaun initiated the shouting; Kuester did not yell first. However, even if Keuster had yelled first, he would have been within his bounds as a coach — Tay has played like crap all season, and a good chewing out might be appropriate.
4) Substitution patterns are irrelevant. The coach has the right (and responsibility) to play whomever whenever he feels it is appropriate to do so. That is his job. If Tay doesn’t like it, then man up and play better.
5) I’m sure Tay had a reason for blowing up. He must not have liked something the coach said/did. But that reason never, ever, ever justifies initiating a public shouting match. See point 1.
Not to be trite or rude, but I don’t think anything else is relevant to the discussion. Tay waaaaay overreacted and was completely out of line. Period.
That’s how I see it, anyway.
brgulker
… and, what I’m saying is simply that …
1. I am not speaking about whether or not Tay Prince was “justified” in yelling back at John Kuester.
2. I said only that:
" … in all likelihood, the present problem is not rooted in a defect with Mr. Prince."
3. I have yet to read anywhere on-line, an account which details the specific reason why John Kuester chose to remove Prince, Hamilton and Villanueva from that game, at that point in the 4th quarter; nor, anyone’s account of what was actually said by either Kuester or Prince, at any point during this time-out.
IMO, based on the evidence I’ve seen, thus far, it would be a mistake in judgment to assume that it was Tay Prince who in fact initiated this confrontation with John Kuester … although it is not in doubt that Prince was the first person to yell back at the other, in this exchange of words.
4. I would also contend that the work environment in the NBA is not the same as other places of “regular” employment, with a slightly different set of dynamics when it comes to authority relationships concerning players, coaches, staff and management [etc.].
khandor
1. I am not speaking about whether or not Tay Prince was "justified" in yelling back at John Kuester.
2. I said only that:
" … in all likelihood, the present problem is not rooted in a defect with Mr. Prince."
I don’t see a significant difference between #1 and #2. If the present problem isn’t rooted in Prince, presumably it’s rooted in coach Kuester, right? That is the obviously implication of your statement. And if that’s the case, then you’ve just let Tay off the hook, intentionally or not.
3. I have yet to read anywhere on-line, an account which details the specific reason why John Kuester chose to remove Prince, Hamilton and Villanueva from that game,
Feel free to check out Matt’s post today, January 27. Kuester wasn’t happy with their effort, energy, and passion. Also, they all played a crappy game and were hurting the team more than helping.
IMO, based on the evidence I’ve seen, thus far, it would be a mistake in judgment to assume that it was Tay Prince who in fact initiated this confrontation with John Kuester …
Did you watch the game?
Tay absolutely initiated the confrontation … it was a conversation until Tay decided to escalate it into a shouting match.
4. I would also contend that the work environment in the NBA is not the same as other places of "regular" employment, with a slightly different set of dynamics when it comes to authority relationships concerning players, coaches, staff and management
Tell that to Phil Jackson, Larry Brown, Greg Pop., or any other elite level coach. I’d be curious to hear how they respond.
The one and only reason that I can see that you’re eager to let Tay off the hook is that you don’t respect Kuester.
Also, Packey linked to two published articles from the Det Free Press and Oakland Press. Both of those reports settle the issue of who initiated the shouting match.
brgulker
I would readily acknowledge that the two reporters in question may well not have heard what was said by John Kuester to his players as they were coming off the floor and/or in the initial stages of their team huddle in that specific time-out.
khandor
Of course you would. It doesn’t matter what evidence we offer to you on this point; you have made your mind up, and there’s no changing it.
not the case at all
If Prince and Kuester said that there was nothing said by Kuester to instigate this shouting episode, then, I would readily acknowledge as such.
Thus far, however, I have yet to see/read anything from either one of these two individual stating that at all.
khandor
Thus far, however, I have yet to see/read anything from either one of these two individual stating that at all.
And you never will! That kind of stuff doesn’t make it to the media (at least in Detroit)!
What you do have is several eye-witness articles from media members who were present at the game and who interviewed the player and coach immediately after the event, as well as several DBB commenters who watched the entire game (and event) live in real time.
You are ignoring all of that. Why?
No where have I read an account that reads like this:
When John Kuester subbed Tay Prince out of the game at the 7:16 mark of the 4th quarter, the Pistons’ veteran Small Forward [inexplicably?] began to yell at his coach.
Instead of yelling back, at Tayshaun Prince, in return, John Kuester stayed on task and continued speaking to his players in the Pistons’ time-out.
In general, players like Tayshaun Prince simply do not begin to yell at their coach when they are subbed out of a game, during a time-out, at the 7:16 mark of the 4th quarter down by @ 20 points.
khandor
In general, players like Tayshaun Prince simply do not begin to yell at their coach when they are subbed out of a game, during a time-out, at the 7:16 mark of the 4th quarter down by @ 20 points.
Exactly. It was an uncharacteristic mistake that Tay made.
In general ...
Players like Tayshaun Prince sometimes do decide to “yell back” at their coach, if that coach has said something to them first in order to draw their ire.
If this is what happened, in this instance, it does not excuse the behaviour of Tayshaun Prince.
What it does, however, is place into the proper context what exactly may have happened between this player and his coach to instigate a yelling match during a specific time-out.
khandor
Q-Star
Should have their respect, though. He was on Larry Brown’s staff, so it’s not like he’s MCIAFI. He was there when they won a championship, he was in Cleveland when Mike Brown won Q-Star’s coach of the year award. He should know what he’s doing and guys should respect that.
shifting over 24 inches ...
When you become the head coach there’s a big difference in how you need to deal with each player, what your entire vision for the team is, how you feel each piece to the puzzle needs to be utilized, etc.
When I look at the coaching staff for the Pistons [i.e. John Kuester, Brian Hill, Darrell Walker and Pat Sullivan], on the whole, I do not see a group that is committed to one another with the individual and collective attributes necessary to create an achieve-to-the-maximum [championship level?] atmosphere for this team.
From my POV, there is more than one individual on this current staff that I would never choose to hire if I was in charge of the Pistons.
khandor
I think Brian Hill is plenty commited to Coach Q.
Didn’t he pass up another job just to coach under Q?
My Music: Now on last.fm!!
My Blog: Pitching Mechanics
i heard from a reliable source
who wishes to remain nameless, that brian hill was offered a part-time job at texas roadhouse but declined once he caught word of coach q looking for an assistant. call it passing up another job, but ill call it using his noggin.
Appreciate the intelligent and civil comments from Blazer fans
Even in the “truth hurts” sort of way.
by Toledo Joe on Jan 24, 2010 1:55 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
It's a sad cold day in hell when...
I admit that the Pistons need to start over. Trade TP and Rip and let JJ get his minutes.
I am honestly afraid to see what the rotation is going to be like when Will Bynum and Ben Gordon get back. Who is going to lose minutes so that Bynum and BG can get theirs?
Is it just me,or are the Pistons a better team without Rip and Tay out on the floor? I hate to say it, but I feel like they are more competitive and play harder with the young guys and not Rip and Tay, and I do love Rip and Tay a lot, but I think it’s time to lose them and see what we can get in exchange.
Sorry about my comments in the game thread last night about Blazers fans, and too Blazers fans on our blog, I was extremely annoyed and upset. I do respect the Blazers, they played hard and deserved to win, congrats on a well fought, well played game. You clearly deserved it more than us. Glad Webster didn’t score 30 haha I didn’t want to jump out a window. Your comments today, Blazers fans, were true and got me thinking alot, the truth does hurt, thanks for presenting your ideas in a civilized and compassionate way, not the “your team sucks haha” kind of way.
It's Silly MF. Official! Detroit Fan till I die, take it to the bank. Will Bynum and Big Ben are the best. I love Jessica Anne Nemeth forever. Gonna drink till I die. thats how we do it in CrAkron. The University of.
From a Blazer fan...
That is a hard place to be. At least you could like the team you are now dismantling.
Wallace & Wallace, Billups, Prince, and Rip had a good run with you all.
Our Wallace team, not so much and it was a trainwreck from hell.
I don’t want to be mean, or anything, it just seems like Wallace, Rip, & Billups were diamonds in the rough.
Charlie & Gordon? Fools gold.
Before I go off tangent, I will say: this is your blog and we were visiting. If it helped to yell at us, more power to you.
In Bayless I trust.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><>
Charlie & Gordon? Fools gold.
I stayed away from the hostility, but it’s interesting to hear this from an opposition’s perspective.
Calling Gordon "Fools Gold" at this stage is incorrect.
Charlie has a larger sample size and admittedly is no treasure, but Gordon’s been laid up for games than he’s played, if I have my facts right. C’mon man.
"We’re going to turn this team around 360 degrees." –Jason Kidd
From from being Fool's Gold ...
Ben Gordon is a lethal weapon, if he’s used properly at the PG position, and as a Back-up OG, with a proper mix of talented teammates.
khandor
LETHAL WEAPPPPON!!11
I can’t wait until Ben Gordon is used properly and transforms into a glock.
khandor f.t.MF.w.
leathal weapon 11?
Not quite … but … more along the lines of the first-class work provided by Gus Williams and “Downtown” Freddie Brown, 2 effective players for some pretty darn good Seattle Supersonics teams, back in the day.
khandor
Gordon is a crappy PG.
Ben Gordon’s individual statistics are much, much better when he plays SG.
Our team is very, very bad when Ben Gordon plays PG (notice the team +/-, 3FG% and TO% for irrefutable evidence).
brgulker
Based on his history as a basketball player, there is little doubt, whatsoever, that Ben Gordon is, in fact, far from being a top notch PG, when he is NOT operating in an offensive system which maximizes his specific strengths and minimizes his weaknesses.
What Ben Gordon needs, in order to excel in this capacity, is to be used in the proper way, within a different type of system than the ones he’s had to play within to this point in his NBA career.
e.g. Ben Gordon working within the confines of the Triangle Offense becomes a Lethal Weapon, alongside an OG like Kobe Bryant; or, working from a simple Single-Double Set, alongside an OG like D-Wade or Brandon Roy.
khandor
so you're saying
Ben Gordon would be the Danny Glover to D-Wade, Brandon Roy or Kobe? Or would he be the Mel Gibson? John McClain?
It might be easier if we used a comparison to that one movie where Steven Seagall saved that stolen war ship from Tommy Lee Jones and Gary Busey. If we were to do that:
Would tayshaun prince be the Steven Seagall to John Kuester’s Gary Busey in the discussion up-thread?
If Ben Gordon and Will Bynum were to run into a crazy time-traveling Phil Jackson from the future who travels through the past and future in a rickety phone booth, which famous philosopher would they rescue first? Also, would San Dimas High School Football still rule?
Also, anecdotally, my best friend’s sister’s boyfriend’s brother’s girlfriend heard from this guy who knows this kid who’s going with the girl who saw Ben Gordon pass out at the 31 flavors last night. I guess it’s pretty serious. Game-time decision at best.
Based on his history as a basketball player, there is little doubt, whatsoever, that Ben Gordon is, in fact, far from being a top notch PG, when he is NOT operating in an offensive system which maximizes his specific strengths and minimizes his weaknesses.
So, if Ben Gordon is a part of a system that uses PGs like most teams use SGs, then Ben Gordon can be an effective PG?
e.g. Ben Gordon working within the confines of the Triangle Offense becomes a Lethal Weapon, alongside an OG like Kobe Bryant; or, working from a simple Single-Double Set, alongside an OG like D-Wade or Brandon Roy.
So, if you put Ben Gordon alongside three of the top SGs in the NBA, he’ll play well? Well, if that’s your point, then I suppose I agree.
But if you put BG alongside Roy or Wade, then even though he’d technically be the PG in the books, he’d be functioning as an Off Guard, i.e., not handing the ball, not initiating the offense, not creating for other players, etc., etc.
And of course, the Pistons don’t currently have a Dwayne Wade, Brandon Roy or Kobe Bryant on the roster … So it’s a self-defeating argument. Even if Kuester wanted to do what you’re recommending, he doesn’t have the personnel to do so.
brgulker
1. Just because those are the players I listed in my examples does not mean that they are the only players and systems with which a talented player like Ben Gordon can work effectively as a PG.
e.g. there is no reason Ben Gordon/PG-OG cannot function well in a back-court rotation with Rip Hamilton/OG and Rodney Stuckey/PG … especially, if the 4th guard [aka, the one who is used most sparingly, as he’s learning the NBA game] in that line-up is a player with the skill-set of Austin Daye.
IMO, it’s a mistake in basketball judgment to think that John Kuester doesn’t have the personnel on this Pistons team to function in a way which best suits the top line players on this team.
2. re: how most systems use point guards and off guards" is of no concern to me
Perhaps your definition of what properly constitues, “How a Point Guard needs to play”, in the first place, “in order to be considered as a legit PG”, is what needs to be re-evaluated.
khandor
sigh
From now on, whenever khandor posts something like this, I’ll just re-post this:
No,madpoopzbrgulker, you don’t get it. See, what you’re doing is assuming khandor was assuming that, and you’re assumption is based on an incorrect assumption about what khandor’s assumption really was. Khandor’s assumption, and it was an assumption based on years of hard won basketball acumen based assumptions, was assuming something completely different, and from your assumption about his assumption, it’s clear you don’t know, and/or don’t have the elite basketball acumen or knowledge to know, what that assumption is/was.
/sarcasm
My understanding of a PG
In a very brief, hurried nutshell:
Every offense needs certain roles to be filled in order to be successful. PGs traditionally have these:
Initiating the offense: bring the ball up the floor successfully (requires good dribbling skills); call a play yourself or inform your teammates of what set is being run; position yourself and your teammates so that said set can be run; make the appropriate first move to initiate the offense.
Read the defense: If the defense sniffs out the play and denies it, someone needs to recognize this and adapt. If this happens before the offense is initiated (which happens often, especially to our Pistons of late), it falls on the PG — because he has the ball — to read and adapt.
Manage teammates after reading the defense: If the called set doesn’t work for whatever reason, the possession can’t be lost. The PG needs to read the situation and manage his teammates appropriately.
Create shots for teammates: Usually this happens by breaking down the defense off the dribble or utilizing a ball screen. Some PGs are good at doing this from the low post, but that’s rare.
Distribute the basketball: After the defense has been broken down by the PG, there’s the matter of what to do with the basketball. Quality PGs are capable of finishing themselves, but they are also capable of finding open teammates in advantageous positions.
Protecting the basketball: Maintaining possession of the basketball is vital. PGs must have good ball-handling skills, but they must also be perceptive about where and when they give the ball to their teammates. Throwing the ball to your Center while he’s at the top of the key is setting him up for a TO; throwing it to him when he’s got great post position is setting him up for a quality possession.
Okay, that’s a lot, and that’s just offense. I think what I’ve just laid out is pretty generally agreed upon … nothing terribly unique or revolutionary about it. That’s my understanding of the role a PG plays, and I don’t think it needs a ton of re-evaluation.
Some successful teams don’t follow this model (Phil Jackson’s triangle is initiated from the post quite often by skilled big man in Gasol or a skilled SG in Kobe/MJ), but normally, PGs fill these roles. If you examine the best teams in the NBA right now, most of them have a guy who fills this role, even if he doesn’t play the PG position.
Now, I’m not a Ben Gordon expert, but it seems to me that he’s lacking in many of those capacities. And on top of that, we’ve seen him at PG this year — which was necessary due to injuries. He’s been flat-out bad in that role. He’s very good at what he does — create and shoot jumpshots — but he’s not a great assist guy, and he’s not very secure with the ball.
by brgulker on Jan 27, 2010 12:32 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Oh yeah
Great post!
RE: the triangle offense. Kelly Dwyer (IMO, one of the very best NBA analysts around), has made the point that the triangle was designed way before the new hand-checking rules, when perimeter defenders were basically allowed to do whatever they wanted. This is why the triangle puts so little emphasis on penetrating PG’s, because when it was created those types of players were not as generally effective as they are today.
Thanks
Dwyer’s analysis makes sense in that regard.
But the reality is that an offense like that requires guys who are very good passers from the high and low post. Big men like that are a rare breed. There are plenty of guards who can do that, but can they also score from those positions?
Sheed functioned that way for us for several years (when he wasp laying effectively, anyway). But I think we’re realizing just how rare that combination of skills is.
that's not accurate either
Despite what you might think Kelly Dwyer [who just happens to be a very talented writer, working within the sports field, rather than a tremendous basketball analyst, per se] has to say about it …
The Triangle Offense is not predicated on anything to do with a lack of “anti hand-checking” rules back in the day.
In generic terms, it’s an offense which is predicated on effective principles dealing with:
- spacing
- over-loading
- player movement
- ball movement, and
- player and ball together [i.e. with the dribble] movement
much like other effective offensive alignments.
khandor
sigh. i know it’s really hopeless, and you’re just trolling, but to be fair, i’m just procrastinating, so anyway, here is Tex Winter talking about how and why he created the basic tenets of the triangle.
i’ll give you a hint. it has something to do with how difficult it was for guards to penetrate back in the day. now, with how the rules have changed, there are different types of offenses built around guard dribble penetration. neither type of offense is necessarily always better than the other, it’s just funny that you choose to disagree with something that is a pretty established fact.
sigh
Gabe F-B,
In the video clip you chose, Tex Winter [Kansas State] talks about the difficulty creating effective lane penetration at the college level when he was coaching against Hank Iba’s great Oklahoma A & M University teams.
He does NOT make any sort of refrence to the “absence of ‘anti-hand-checking’ rules”.
FWIW, I’d be willing to wager an awful lot of my own hard-earned money on which one of us actually has a more thorough understanding of the way in which the Triangle Offense is supposed to function:
Gabe F-Bii. Kelly Dwyer
iii. me.
There’s a huge difference between, “a defensive team being able to collapse its off the ball defenders into the lane in order to prevent effective dribble penetration from occurring” and what you said were the reasons Tex originally came up with the fundamental principles of the Triangle Offense:
i.e. “RE: the triangle offense. Kelly Dwyer (IMO, one of the very best NBA analysts around), has made the point that the triangle was designed way before the new hand-checking rules, when perimeter defenders were basically allowed to do whatever they wanted.” [your own words]
PLEASE NOTE: The part which references Dwyer’s opinion and reads as, “… when perimeter defenders were basically allowed to do what they wanted,” DOES NOT refer to “being able to hand-check” the ball-handler to prevent dribble penetration from happening BUT, instead, to the lack of “anti-zone defense legislation in the college game,” which allowed/s perimeter defenders to be positioned anywhere they want to stand and to react to offensive player and ball movement as they see fit, i.e. UNLIKE the dictates of The NBA Rules which have specific parameters for how perimeter defenders are allowed to be positioned and react to offensive movement of the ball and/or players.
It’s a real pleasure to be able to talk about the X’s and O’s of basketball on given web site. However, one of the requirements is to actually know what one is talking about, in the first place.
khandor
It’s a real pleasure to be able to talk about the X’s and O’s of basketball on given web site. However, one of the requirements is to actually know what one is talking about, in the first place.
you said something that was the opposite of factual truth. you’re b.s. got pointed out. now, you’ve fallen back on your default defense of “i know more than you, or Kelly Dwyer.”
khandor, you’re hopeless. have a nice life.
no sirree
What I said was accurate.
What you said, however, was the factual lie.
What Tex Winter actually says in you own video clip actually reinforces what I said initially and serves to invalidate what you tried to claimwas the original rationale for him “inventing” the Triangle Offense in the first place.
The “cover-up” here, son, is unfortunately all yours.
khandor
haha, nice. “son.” classy.
the triangle in the college game: created because of the difficulty to penetrate against defenses that clogged the lanes heavily with weakside help, you are correct about the history there.
the triangle in the nba: adopted because…? same problem, different cause- difficulty to penetrate because of old-school defense rules.
you’re right that i should have made that distinction more clear. but my general point is (IMO) still accurate- it was created in college, and adopted in the nba because of similar problems though they were caused by different things.
Gabe F-B
1. In all sincerity … I will give you big props for acknowledging the lack of clarity in what you first tried to say here concerning the origins, workings and requirements for the Triangle Offense.
2. IMO, the Triangle Offense is used by Phil Jackson [and Tex Winter] in the NBA game because it emphasizes good spacing, good ball movement, and good player movement, is an equal opportunity highly fluid system, which emphasizes inter-changeable parts and takes advantage of a whole variety of individual mismatch opportunities which are created at each of the designated positions based on a particular player’s individual strengths and weaknesses … not in response to “the lack of anti- hand-checking rules” which were originally in place in the NBA 40+ years ago, and/or the difficulty involved in penetrating into the lane via the dribble.
Given Phil’s vision of how the game should be played, its a seemless fit with his entire Life Philosphy.
3. If I’m not at least 10 years older than you are then I will gladly retract my use of the word, “son”, and offer you my sincere apology for using that term inappropriately. Deal? or, No deal?
I am in my late 40’s.
The ball is in your court.
khandor
heh, oh khandor, I don’t know how to quit you.
Your powers of deduction are very, very strong. You are in fact quite a bit older than me, so no official retraction or apology shall be necessitated.
no problem ...
Gabe F-B,
As they say … “No harm, no foul.”
khandor
brgulker
Sticking within the framework of what you’ve outlined above …
Ben Gordon is only a less-than adequate PG “if you use him in a traditional PG’s role.”
What this doesn’t mean, however, is that Ben Gordon will in fact be a less-than adequate player, if he’s used as the PG for a team that doesn’t actually use its PG in a “traditional” way, for example, like the Triangle Offense.
IMO, if the Pistons would have hired a coach [Kurt Rambis?] that uses the Triangle Offense and then slotted in Rodney Stuckey, Rip Hamilton, Tayshaun Prince, Jason Maxiell and Kwame Brown, as their starters at the PG, OG, SF, PF and C positions, respectively, with Ben Gordon, Jonas Jerebko, Charlie Villanueva and Ben Wallace [or Chris Wilcox], as their primary back-up players, at the PG-OG, SF, PF and C positions, respectively … in conjunction with using Austin Daye, as their 4th guard … they would have been able to earn a playoff spot this season and, also, be only 1 very good Big away from developing into a legitimate contender in the EC, down-the-road a piece.
khandor
that’s hogwash.
The triangle depends on big men with passing ability. Max and Kwame are two of the worst passers in the NBA (with the added bonus of being turnover prone). Big Ben is the only PF/C on the roster who could be effective in the triangle.
hogwash?
1. The Triangle Offense depends on a whole lot of different things … not just the ability of a big man who can pass the ball effectively.
2. Catching and finishing without dropping the ball are Kwame’s main problems, re: TO’s, rather than making a slew of poor passes.
3. All Maxiell would need in order to play effectively as the primary pinch-post player in the Triangle Offense is a great deal or practice… :-) … as he actually has a skill-set which is well-suited to the requirements of this position.
khandor
In addition ...
So, too, would Charlie Villanueva/PF be a much more productive player in the Triangle Offense.
khandor
This is impossible
We don’t have anyone one our roster who can initiate the triangle offense.
The triangle offense demands that you have at least one player who is both a good low-post passer and a good low-post scorer.
The Bulls had MJ and Pippen. The Lakers have Kobe, Odom, Gasol, and Bynum.
We only have one guy who can score from the post consistently (Charlie V), and he hasn’t yet demonstrated that he’s capable of being a playmaker for others from that position.
Therefore, it doesn’t matter if Ben Gordon would be a good PG in a Triangle Offense (I’m sure he could be), because we don’t have the players on our roster that the Triangle demands.
For this specific team, with this specific set of players, Ben Gordon is not a tenable answer for the backup PG slot — because this particular set of players requires the type of “traditional PG” that I outlined above.
Now, if we find a way to trade for the next Pao Gasol, then we can have revised conversation about Ben Gordon at PG.
that is an incorrect perception
brgulker,
With all due respect …
What you said there is simply not the case.
If there are good low-post passers and good low-post scorers available on a team, then, the it is absolutely valid to observe that the Triangle Offense works in a highly effective way.
However, if you were to ask Tex Winter or Phil Jackson, themselves, IMO, they would each tell you straight-up that the Offense “which Tex built” has no such NEED, in order to function effectively, in the first place.
In fact, if you’ve ever had occasion to play within or coach the Triangle Offense yourself you would know first-hand how a very limited Center, like Bill Cartwright, or Bill Wennington, or Luc Longley, for example, can still manage to succeed with it even if he doesn’t happen to have an all-time great player like MJ on his squad.
[Hint: In the video clip above, Tex talks about using the UCLA cut and the wing pick effectively against Hank Iba’s great teams 65 years ago without mentioning one word about the NEED for a good-to-great low post scorer or passer.]
khandor
not the point, at all
re: “So, if you put Ben Gordon alongside three of the top SGs in the NBA, he’ll play well? Well, if that’s your point, then I suppose I agree.”
There are any number of other players in the NBA with a different skill-set, compared to that of Ben Gordon, who would not excel to the same/similar degree when playing alongside of misters Wade, Roy and Bryant, working within the confines of the Triangle Offense or using a simple Single-Double set play.
khandor
Not my point at all, actually
I’m not talking about anyone other than Ben Gordon. If you put Ben Gordon alongside of any of those SGs, who are among the NBA’s best at that position, he would be fine.
I don’t disagree with that, but we don’t have anyone who can do what any of those guys does.
I was wrong too
for coming in a pushing buttons last night. I won’t make excuses for my disrespectful behavior. I really do respect you guys and hope you can give me a second chance. I don’t want to be responsible for giving Blazers Edge or Blazer fans a bad rap. Wishing your boys the best of luck this season and continued success on DBB. Over 700 comments in the game thread… not too shabby.
"In order to keep a true perspective of one's importance, everyone should have a dog that will worship him and a cat that will ignore him."
whatever.
You can go ahead and just save the bullshit apology next time. Also:
Over 700 comments in the game thread… not too shabby.
This is one thing about SBNation that is 100% lame. Long threads are fun. Being semi-competitive about how long your chosen teams blogs game threads are…? Thumbs down.
I still think Ben Gordon is the real deal, but I’m not sold on CV31 yet. When there were rumblings that we could be signing him in the summer, I wasn’t really on board. I think I said something about him being softer than Charmin at the time. The good thing is that he’s still young and has lots of time to pick up his game and become more consistent.
man it looks like there was quite a time had here last nite
the game thread was pretty nutty. lots of detroit hatin from the blazer-nation. this whole making fun of the city of detroit thing is pretty lame. i guess people still find it funny but its just kinda played out.
the cv foul was definitely a hard foul, maybe a flagrant one, but cmon rudy sold that. thats just no free chili right there. im kinda worried that cv pulled a lil garnett move there, by that i mean punking a sissy euro player and then gettin into it with a decrepit juwan howard. i wish someone would do it to lebron when hes traveling down the lane.
Just saw the Rudy foul
The NBA where overreacting happens.
A fight almost broke out because of that? Really? I saw harder fouls when I was playing basketball. I was 8 years old and it was a girls league.
lol. Yeah, after reading about the fight, then actually watching it, this was me:
“seriously? all that spewed detroit hatred because of this???”
Charlie f-ing Villanueava somehow represents Detroit? ummmmmm. That’s retarded.
by Gabe F-B on Jan 25, 2010 4:39 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
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