Morning Shootaround: Crutches, Excuses and Injury Updates
by Matt Watson on Jan 26, 2010 5:08 AM EST
in Morning Shootaround
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PrintFile this under "better late than never" -- Rip Hamilton says he's finally figuring out how to play with Rodney Stuckey ... his teammate for the last two and a half years. From Vincent Goodwill of the Detroit News:
Hamilton developed an on-court rapport with Chauncey Billups but now is dealing with a new cast, which throws his rhythm off. He's shown signs of breaking out, though, averaging 22.2 points and seven assists in his last five games.
At what point do we stop talking about Billups? The trade happened 14 months ago. I know continuity in the backcourt has been a problem over the last year due to injury, AI and MCIAFI, but at some point we need to retire that crutch.
Speaking of crutches, file this under "probably reading too much between the lines, but c'mon" -- even though Rodney Stuckey realizes "As I go, we go," he also seems quick with excuses for his team's play:
"It's going to take time, man. We have a first year coach, a lot of injuries," he said. "We've got time to fix this, it just takes time."
Objectively speaking, there's nothing wrong with Stuckey's assessment -- I've used the same explanation when asked by friends and colleagues what's plagued this team. But if Stuckey is serious about being a team leader, he can't ever allow himself to go on the record pointing a finger at his coach's inexperience.
Has John Kuester made mistakes? Absolutely. But is the coach at fault when the players on the floor don't play with consistent effort for 48 minutes in a row, or the supposed point guard? I doubt Stuckey meant it as anything more than a throwaway line -- in his defense, he's trying to sound optimistic -- but on the heels of Tayshaun going all 'Sheed on the sidelines the other night, it's not what you want to hear.
In any case, at least there's mostly good news on the injury front: both Will Bynum and Ben Gordon practiced yesterday, and there's a chance both could return in time for Wednesday's game against the Grizzlies -- although from the sounds of it, Gordon isn't in any rush. From Dave Pemberton of the Oakland Press
"Today was my first time practicing for a full practice since I got hurt," Gordon said after Monday’s practice. "It’s feeling really good. There is a still a little bit of pain there, but hopefully by Wednesday I’ll be ready."Gordon feels the biggest hurdle is making sure he is 100 percent both physically and mentally so he doesn’t favor the groin and possibly re-injure it or injure something else.
"It’s a big hurdle," Gordon said. "I could probably play, but I probably wouldn’t be effective out there. I’d probably be risking tearing it again. Right now, it’s a mental hurdle. When I’m out there practicing I’m still conscious of every movement I make and trying to make sure I don’t overextend myself. Until I get that out of the way, I probably won’t be back. I’ll just continue to work on it until I can play without second guessing myself."
Hamilton is still optimstic about the playoffs. From the Detroit Free Press:
"The great thing about it is the East is down anyway from a record standpoint," he said. "Any team that gets hot can get that fourth or fifth spot. I try to let the young guys know that it's a long season. If you continue to work hard and play hard, you can get better."
You don't need to be John Hollinger to realize he's almost certainly wrong, but at least he's sticking to the script.
More links worth your time:
Justin Rogers at MLive: Pistons have the pieces to acquire Stoudemire, but seem likely to be outbid
Tom Ziller at FanHouse: Proposing a Solution for NBA's Ineffective Luxury Tax
Dan Feldman at Piston Powered: Trade Idea: Dumping Jason Maxiell for ... Adam Morrison
Henry Abbott at TrueHoop: PED salesman say NBA players were clients
A.J. Perez at FanHouse: Javaris Crittenton sentenced for gun charge.
(Quick aside: remember when Crittenton, Acie Law and Mike Conley looked like viable draft picks instead of Stuckey? Regardless of how you feel Stuckey has progressed, things could obviously be much, much worse.)
Last but not least: The Ultimate Tubaconducken. Just because.
And with that, consider this your open thread.
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Maybe it’s the eternal optimist in me, but I don’t think Stuckey meant it as “we have a first year coach, give him time to learn the ropes.” I think he meant it as “we have a coach who is with us for the first year, we need time to learn his schemes, and he has to learn our strengths.”
But I agree, at some point that crutch has to go away and it has to be about getting the job done. Ultimately this is a game that all of the players on this team have probably been playing since they were children…just play basketball.
That's how I read Stuckey's comment too
He’s new to the team. Also, sure Rip and Stuckey have been teammates for over two years, but how much time on the court together have they really had? Stuckey’s first year it was still Chauncey’s show; his second year featured the AI disaster; and the third year has featured multiple serious injuries.
Beyond playing with Rip, Stuckey has had little time to develop with a normal, regular lineup. Last year had all the weird “small ball” groups out on the floor; this year, there have been huge stretches when he’s been the only legit scorer on the floor. Not good for the development of a point guard.
This isn’t to say everything is going to turn out great, or even good, this year. But I don’t mind a few mildly optimistic comments from the players.
Stuckey’s quote is confusing to me. What does he mean by time? If it’s time this season to put together a playoff run, well, there’s not a lot of time left for that. But if he means time over the long term, as in, there are several core guys who have just been signed, and we’ve yet to play together, so give us the rest of this year to figure it out, then I guess he’s right.
I wouldn't criticize Stuckey for the Rookie Coach comment.
it’s not like he had a cue card. He said something in the moment during an interview, something that I don’t think was even remotely disparaging. I think as others do, that Stuckey wants things to settle down a little, and by asking for more time, he’s asking the fans and the media to be patient.
"We’re going to turn this team around 360 degrees." –Jason Kidd
khandor calls out DBB commenters (or at least one specific commenter)
For real, and I believe it’s one of Gabe’s comments.
When yours truly has to read repeated nonsense like this …
"The actual contributions which a head coach makes to a successful NBA team are quite minimal, in comparison with the overall quality of the players on a team’s roster" – NBA Team Fan X … (Gabe said that!)
scattered across the internet, it can be nauseating.
http://khandorssportsblog.com/wordpress/2010/01/25/5-men-on-a-single-string-kudos-to-larry-brown/
I like engaging khandor. Debating basketball is fun. And FWIW, I think khandor has some good opinions on his home team, in spite of his bad ideas for the Pistons.
But this is crossing the line, if you ask me.
I like engaging khandor. Debating basketball is fun
But they’re not even remotely debates. I don’t know how you can call them that. It’s like talking to a brick wall with even less objectivity.
by Mike Payne on Jan 26, 2010 3:43 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
fist bump @ Mr. brgulker :)
Now that we’ve dealt with khandor around these parts since before the season even started, it’s clear he’s got his opinions and thinks people that disagree with them are NBA basketball illiterate or something.
Meh, IMO it’s self-evidently obvious that talent plays the biggest role in team success and not really worth thinking of examples to prove it. But, I’m bored, and… two things:
1) The Bobcats are currently a surprise team by playing around .500 ball. In the post brgulker linked to, khandor credits their improvement to Super Elite Basketball Coach Larry Brown. But, just out of curiosity, I wonder if any statistical model might have predicted they’d be a pretty good team just from the players assembled?
Nah, probably not.
2) This is fun to think about- if Jod had somehow lured Mike Brown away from the Cavs to coach the ‘stones (maybe Mike’s a big, Ben “Lethal Weapon” Gordon fan?), and the Cavs promoted Kuester to head coach, what would the Pistons record be this season? Are we 35-11, and are the Cavs 15-28? Smart money says yes!
Gabe F-B
If you took the time to actually read what I’ve written about different teams across the association, on different sites, including my own blog, then, although you might choose to disagree with my exact perspective, IMO, you might also have a less “negative” attitude [overall] to what I have to say about the current state of the Detroit Pistons.
e.g. What I said about the Bobcats this past summer ran along the lines of this:
- They were a markedly improved defensive team last season after the different player acquisitions which added the likes of Diaw, Bell, Radmanovic, Howard and Bell to their roster
- They made solid, under-rated additions from the 2009 NBA Draft, when they selected 2 players that I rated in the “good addition” category, i.e. Gerald Henderson, who I thought was still taken too early; and, Derrick Brown, who I thought was a virtual steal, taken at the spot where the Bobcats were able to pick him [unlike almost every other NBA analyst who published their list of preferred players in connection with the 2009 Draft]
- They made a terrific acquisition this season when they added Stephen Jackson/G-F to their mix, in return for veritable peanuts [Bell + Radman]
- They made another solid, under-the-radar acquisition this off season, in the form of Flip Murray and made the RIGHT decision to retain the services of Gerald Wallace/SF-PF
- They made a solid addition when they added a young PG like DJ Augustin to their roster, from the [2008?] NBA Draft
- They made a solid decision 2 seasons ago, to add an experienced head coach, like Larry Brown, to develop a new attitude for their franchise based on his well-known mantra of “playing basketball the right way” … i.e. based on the fundamental principles of Team Defense, Rebounding and Shared Team Offense, founded upon the teachings and Basketball Philosophies of Dean Smith, for whom I have a great deal of R.E.S.P.E.C.T., as an authentic innovator of the game
- If Charlotte continues to make these sorts of positive player acquisitions, it should be no surprise to anyone to see them contend for a playoff spot during the 2009-2010 season
Although other NBA analysts may have characteristized the Bobcats as not really having a “bright future” down-the-road, given their present list of assets … I disagree with this perspective, provided that they continue to make sound personnel moves going forward from this point.
As this season unfolds, it is somewhat gratifying to see that I am being proven right about how well others should have expected the Bobcats to play this year.
khandor
khandor,
I don’t understand your point.
Are the Bobcats good because Larry Brown is a great coach?
Or,
Are the Bobcats good because they added a whole bunch of players who were better than they had before?
Gabe and I have made the argument that team success is defined more by players than it is by coaches (or perhaps first by players and second by coaches). This entire post seems to be in agreement with that argument.
brgulker
Team success in the pro sports environment requires all of:
1. Top flight ownership
2. Top flight management
3. Top flight coaching
4. Top flight [but not necessarily “superstar”] main-frame players, in volume
5. Top flight supporting role players, in volume.
What I have difficulty with is those who seek to de-value the role played by any 1 of these 5 elements/factors in creating and maintaining a championship level organization.
IMO, the Charlotte Bobcats would not have been able to accomplish what they’ve done so far this season without the presence and Basketball Philosophies/Teachings of Larry Brown AND the group of players they have now assembled.
It’s simply not a case of just one OR the other.
khandor
It’s simply not a case of just one OR the other.
I don’t think anyone here would disagree with that. We’ve experienced all those things in combination in Detroit as fans.
But if I had to prioritize any of those things over the other, I’d say that need players before you need anything else. Obviously, they’re all interrelated (i.e., you won’t get good players unless you’ve got good management).
But even a coach like Larry Brown — who all Pistons fan know is a brilliant coach on the defensive end — can’t turn the Bobcats into a contender, because they simply don’t have enough talent.
That’s the extent of my point. Even if Larry Brown were coaching the Pistons, we’d have a ceiling of mediocrity, because our players just aren’t anywhere near as good as some of the other teams in the NBA.
brgulker
Please go ahead and compare the rosters for the Bobcats and the Pistons:
Charlotte vs Detroit
1 Raymond Felton vs Rodney Stuckey
2 Stephen Jackson vs Rip Hamilton
3 Gerald Wallace vs Tayshaun Prince
4 Boris Diaw vs Charlie Villanueva
5 Nazr Mohamed vs Ben Wallace
6 D.J. Augustin vs Ben Gordon
7 Gerald Henderson vs Austin Daye
8 Derrick Brown vs Jonas Jerebko
9 DeSagana Diop vs Jason Maxiell
10 Acie Law vs Chaucky Atkins
11 Flip Murray vs Will Bynum
12 Stephen Graham vs DaJuan Summers
13 Tyson Chandler vs Kwame Brown
14 Alexis Ajinca vs Chris Wilcox
HC Larry Brown vs John Kuester
then tell me where it is exactly you think that Charlotte’s personnel is so superior to Detroit’s?
PS. I’m not saying that the Pistons have as much “NBA Talent” as the best teams in the league; but, IMO, there is absolutely no reason the level of “NBA talent” which currently exists on this roster cannot be made to function in a way that resembles a solid-looking playoff team like the Charlotte Bobcats … with the direction available from a Top Notch head coach.
khandor
If you take away Ben Wallace, Gerald Wallace alone has produced more wins than all the rest of the players on the Pistons roster combined. That is why the Bobcats are doing okay, and the Pistons suck.
Which is all well and good, except ...
I did not ask for a comparison of the Bobcats’ and Pistons’ rosters based upon their respective “Wins Produced” scores, with ot without Ben Wallace included.
i.e. What I asked for, instead, was for brgulker to go individual player-vs-individual player match-up for these two rosters and tell me where in his judgment he thinks that Charlotte has a significant qualitative advantage over Detroit, based on the “NBA talent” level of their players.
[Gabe F-B, if this is what you would like to do, instead, then feel free to go right ahead.]
khandor
“NBA talent” = subjective.
Production = objective.
I understand that you think the players on Detroit could or should be playing at a higher level due to your opinion of their talent level. You are well within your rights to have such an opinion. Hopefully not putting words in his mouth, but brgulker and I have maintained since long before the season even started that the PIstons would in all likelihood be below .500, and possibly well below, due to our opinons of the Pistons talent level.
You believe you’re initial opinion was correct, and argue that Kuester’s poor coaching has sabotaged the Pistons record. I disagree.
The point about Gerald Wallace was to illustrate that a player playing at a near superstar level covers up a lot of deficiencies. In my opinion, hypothetically, if we could substitute Gerald Wallace’s production from this season for Tay’s, then we’d probably be at least around .500, or right around the same record as the Bobcats.
speaking of switching things around ...
Do you think that Gerald Wallace would be having the kind of season he is this year, so far, if someone other than Larry Brown was his coach?
[Hint: What some seem not to realize is that Gerald Wallace’s “talent” and/or his “production” is in fact tied in part to the specific environment which has now/finally been created for him … as well as for several other Bobcats … by his current head coach.]
khandor
I don’t know the answer to that.
All I can say with certainty is this: Wallace has always been a very good player. This year, he’s turned some kind of corner and has gone from good to great.
Has Larry Brown impacted that? I would say that I think he has, but I don’t really know for sure. A similar thing happened with Billups under Brown — he went from a streaky, inconsistent underachiever to a top-tier PG.
brgulker
What I can tell you about that specific type of situation, both, [i] based on the accounts of such luminous head coaches across different sports, e.g. like Red Auerbach, Scott Bowman, and Bill Walsh, etc., and [ii] my first-hand experience, is that it is directly related to the type of first-class coaching those players are getting/got when the lightbulb came on for them which they did not receive at an earlier stage in their lives.
i.e. When erratic “playmaking” players go from performing inconsistently to making those same plays at a high level repeatedly, it is almost always tied to their intense work with/under the direction of a first-class coach.
khandor
I’m not sure if you’re talking about Billups or Wallace here.
Wallace was very, very good before Brown. He’s had half a great season so far.
Let’s also not forget that Billups was also very, very good under Filp Saunders, and I know Flip’s not on your short list of top notch coaches. I suspect that argument will be that he continued doing what Brown taught him, however, and I don’t have anything that could possibly be offered as a refutation.
I’m talking about both Chauncey Billups and Gerald Wallace.
What has set their post Larry Brown performances apart from their pre-Larry Brown performances has been their level of consistent playmaking, in the aftermath of Larry becoming their coach.
Once a player reaches this new level of consistency working under the tutelage of an expert coach, any coach that subsequently has the opportunity to work with this “new & improved” player then becomes the beneficiary of that initial intense work.
khandor
Right now, I’d say that I’d take the Bobcats at almost every single starting position, except C. PF is a toss up.
And as Gabe mentioned, Gerald Wallace is a fracking beast. You don’t need advanced stats to tell you that; just look at his stat line compared to anyone on Detroit’s.
PS. I’m not saying that the Pistons have as much "NBA Talent" as the best teams in the league; but, IMO, there is absolutely no reason the level of "NBA talent" which currently exists on this roster cannot be made to function in a way that resembles a solid-looking playoff team like the Charlotte Bobcats … with the direction available from a Top Notch head coach.
There’s nothing more I think either of us can say, really. We have to agree to disagree. I think that the Bobcats have superior talent at several positions and aren’t at a clear disadvantage at any particular matchup. That, and Gerald Wallace is one of the best overall players in the game.
Does Larry Brown help? Sure. Does Larry Brown make the Pistons a playoff team? I don’t see it. I’ve been saying that they’re a borderline playoff team at best since this summer, and all of my worst fears have been realized.
When we get better players, our record will get better, and our team will play better. Our coach will stay the same; he’ll just have players capable of doing what he wants them to.
brgulker
1. In all likelihood, there aren’t too many NBA experts who like the NBA talent level of the Bobcats’ players more than I do, since I was one of the few who suggested in the summer that Charlotte would have a great shot at making the playoffs this season. Thus, it would be a mistake for anyone to try and suggest that I am someone who is biased against the players on their team. That said … when you compare these two rosters in an unbiased way what you should be able to see is that, although Charlotte does have a talent advantage over Detroit, on the whole, this advantage is in no way “vastly superior” … especially, once you remove the Big Edge the Bobcats have at the head coach position, with Larry Brown dwarfing John Kuester.
2. IMO, part of the very reason why you might happen to prefer many of the Bobcat players to their counterparts on the Pistons is precisely because of the way they are performing this season, working under a coach of Larry Brown’s ability; while, the exact opposite perception is part of why you might not happen to like their counterparts on the Pistons, working under John Kuester.
khandor
Thus, it would be a mistake for anyone to try and suggest that I am someone who is biased against the players on their team.
Right, and I never did (nor has anyone else?).
That said … when you compare these two rosters in an unbiased way what you should be able to see is that, although Charlotte does have a talent advantage over Detroit, on the whole, this advantage is in no way "vastly superior"
I think Gerald Wallace is having a superstar year. No one on the Pistons is even close, except Ben Wallace; however, his impact does not affect our offense drastically, and our offense is really what’s killing us.
That talent gap alone constitutes a very significant, if not “vast,” difference between the two teams.
As to #2, well, no that’s just not correct. I complained more than anyone all summer long about Ben Gordon and Charlie V. Now, they’re performing just like I feared they would. Same for Wilcox. Same for Tayshaun.
This Pistons team is just as bad as I thought they could be as far back as this summer, the day that the two FAs were signed. I’m not biased by the bad play of the moment at all.
All that said, here’s my primary argument, which I said in another thread I think: basketball players affect what happens on the court more than basketball coaches.
I’m NOT saying that coaches don’t impact games. What I am saying, however, is that at the end of the day, a coach needs players who are capable of executing even the best game plans. Right now, the Pistons have a very confusing roster that wouldn’t allow them to be significantly better than they currently are, regardless of the coach.
So, would Larry Brown make them borderline .500? No, because we don’t have anyone on the roster like Gerald Wallace, who can cover up all sorts of deficiencies (as Gabe mentioned elsewhere).
Charlie V and Ben Gordon have performed poorly to this point.
Part of the reason for this is the poor job which John Kuester has done coaching the Pistons to this point.
[i.e. IMO, he has been just as bad as the other coaches these two players have had at their other stops in the league to this point]
Rodney Stuckey, Austin Daye and Jonas Jerebko are 3 young players for the Pistons who are at a similar stage in their careers, based on their NBA Talent Level, to where Chauncey Billups was before Larry Brown arrived in Detroit and where Gerald Wallace was before Larry Brown arrived in Charlotte.
Ben Gordon and Charlie V. are youngish veteran players who are at a similar point to where Brian Shaw and Robert Horry were at, respectively, before Phil Jackson arrived in LA and Rudy T. arrived in Houston.
Although it may well “look” confusing to a regular Pistons’ fan, it is far from being a confusing situation for a solid first-class GM like Joe D, and/or an authentic NBA expert.
PS. I just read your separate entry on Joe D.’s decision to build around Rodney Stuckey and heartily concur that that is exactly what I see happening in Detroit right now.
khandor
Charlie V and Ben Gordon have performed poorly to this point.
Part of the reason for this is the poor job which John Kuester has done coaching the Pistons to this point.
khandor, here’s my problem with this. This is personal opinion stated as indisputable fact. Now, would I say that Kuester is as good a coach as Larry Brown? Of course not! Kuester’s a first-year coach. He has done several things that I would praise, and he’s done other things that I don’t understand.
Everyone is entitled to an opinion, and everyone has one. Of course, you’re entitled to yours, and several of us have engaged you in debating them. Your sense of Kuester is puzzling to many of us, because we’ve watched almost every minute of the Pistons season, read and watched interviews with him, and generally agreed that he’s doing about as good a job as possible.
For the sake of everyone involved, it would be helpful to state opinion as such. Otherwise, it comes across as arrogant and condescending. E.g.,
Although it may well "look" confusing to a regular Pistons’ fan, it is far from being a confusing situation for a solid first-class GM like Joe D, and/or an authentic NBA expert.
Read that sentence aloud to yourself — do you see how condescending it is? I’m not saying it’s intentional. Maybe it is, maybe it isn’t. I don’t know you personally, so it’s hard for me to say. But regardless, I’m telling you how it comes across. If your desire is to engage DBB commenters in good faith, you simply have to avoid that type of language.
Tell you what, try this in response to me, for the sake of good-spirited debate:
“John Kuester is not a top notch coach because … reason A, Reason B, and reason C. Larry Brown is a good coach because of reason A, reason B, and reason C.”
Any of those reasons should be readily available for anyone to examine. So, if you say that Larry Brown is a good teacher and Kuester is not, how could someone other than you test that claim for accuracy? If you say that Kuester fails with respect to rotation patterns, then there should be at least some way to back up your claim. E.g., if Ben Gordon could be used effectively at PG, then there should be something, somewhere that could be offered in support — because Ben Gordon has played PG throughout his career, especially this season.
by brgulker on Feb 2, 2010 10:54 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
One other thing
Charlie V and Ben Gordon have performed poorly to this point.
Apart from Ben Gordon’s decline in 3pt percentage, they’re averaging right around career norms across the board. They’re pretty much doing what they’ve always done for other teams.
trust that I see where you're coming from
brgulker,
The fact is that a good part of what I happen to do involves making specific observations about different things involved with the world of sport that others simply do not see at the time when those observations are made, in the first place.
What they involve is making the correct “read” on a situation which has yet to happen and which is largely, if not completely, without actual factual evidence to back it up.
[… in part, the reason for this is that what others might think qualifies as supporting factual evidence isn’t really valid supporting factual evidence at all, if/when you really examine it in greater detail.]
The major difference between the “opinions” which I have have about sport and those of countless others is the actual degree to which my “opinions” concerning sport eventually turn out to be right, in comparison with the opinions of others.
Let me give you an example.
In the summer, part of what I said on DBB is that:
If the Pistons give copious amounts of PT this season to Will Bynum, at the PG position, in effect stealing minutes away from the continued development of Rodney Stuckey, as their primary PG, and Ben Gordon as the secondary PG and their secondary OG, in support of Rip Hamilton, as their primary OG, with Tay Prince as their primary SF, with support from some combination of Jonas Jerebko and Austin Daye [plus, Deron Washington who I also liked before he was cut during the pre-season], then it would be a sign that John Kuester doesn’t yet understand how to best use the players on the Pistons’ roster and it should be expected that Detroit is little more than another mediocre team in the lower portion of the EC … which is precisely what has happened, thus far, this season.
[IMO, it makes little sense to sign a player like Gordon/G#3 and then not use him as a combo guard in conjunction with Stuckey/G#1 and Hamilton/G#2, at the expense of Will Bynum/G#5.]
On the other hand, if the Pistons would have performed at a high level to this point this season, with Kuester’s decision to use Will Bynum as this team’s secondary PG, in support of Rodney Stuckey, and then use Ben Gordon as their secondary OG, in support of Rip Hamilton, and then use Rip Hamilton as their secondary SF, in support of Tay Prince, and then use Jonas Jerebko as their 3rd SF off the bench with Austin Daye as their 6th guard in the PG-OG-SF rotation and Chucky Atkins as their 7th guard, then what I said about John Kuester and this type of unweildy rotation at the guard and forward positions would have in fact been proven to be wrong.
Yes, unforeseen injuries have had a significant effect on the Pistons’ struggles so far this season, but given how John Kuester has actually chosen to go about coaching/using the players on this year’s Pistons team, it is most likely the case that the Pistons would not be very much a head of where they are today even if they had been completely healthy for the majority of the season under his direction.
Q1. Do the Pistons have as much NBA Level Talent as the Orlando Magic?
A1. No they do not.
Q2. Do the Pistons have as much NBA Level Talent as the Charlotte Bobcats?
A2. Yes, they do.
The main problem with this year’s Detroit team has been the work done so far by John Kuester, as far as using his player personnel correctly is concerned and inter-acting with/developing the best possible roles for the individual players on this year’s team.
Did I have “proof” that this was going to happen this way, this season, back in August-September?
No, I did not.
When it actually comes to what I happen to do …
“The proof of the pudding is in the eating.” – Anonymous
Detroit’s current W-L record is 15-31. The team is in 14th position in the EC, and their individual players have been used in the following way [based on MPG]:
Name G GS MPG
1 Rodney Stuckey 46 46 36.1
2 Richard Hamilton 19 19 35.7
3 Tayshaun Prince 14 14 31.9
4 Ben Gordon 27 14 31.4
5 Ben Wallace 46 46 30.1
6 Jonas Jerebko 44 37 27.5
7 Charlie Villanueva 44 16 27.4
8 Will Bynum 27 0 27.3
9 Jason Maxiell 44 15 17.3
10 Chucky Atkins 33 11 16.9
11 Kwame Brown 30 0 14.1
12 Chris Wilcox 32 10 13.3
13 Austin Daye 42 2 13.2
14 DaJuan Summers 23 0 8.6
If John Kuester decides now to give some of Will Bynum’s MP to Ben Gordon, at the back-up PG spot, in support of Rodney Stuckey, as the primary PG, and uses only Rip Hamilton & BG at the OG position, with developmental support from Austin Daye, periodically; and, then, uses a combination of only Prince and Jerebko at the SF position; the Pistons will be much better than they were in the first half of the season, and be in a better position to trade Will Bynum + other assets down the road in return for the solid Big Man they need to shore up their front-court rotation.
When what I say doesn’t happen the way I said it would then I have no problem acknowledging that what I observed initially has turned out to be wrong.
khandor
khandor, I understand your argument, but we have a fundamental disagreement.
Your argument is built on the premise that Ben Gordon is a capable backup PG. Now, I’ve watched him play this year in every game he’s been healthy. I watched him last year a good deal during the playoffs. I’ve looked at his stats at SG vs. PG for this season.
None of that leads me to believe that he is a capable backup PG.
Now, I would agree with you insofar as this: Ben Gordon should get minutes.
The problem is that Joe signed too many dang SGs, so there are two options: 1) force players out of position (which is how I see your argument) or 2) Someone is the odd man out.
As I see it, and here’s where we part ways, Bynum is the best option for backup PG - because he’s simply better at that position than Ben Gordon. Again, I’ve watched him play, I’ve looked at his stats vs. Ben Gordon at PG, and I’ve compared team +/ with Bynum vs. BG at PG.
All of that leads me and others to believe that Will Bynum makes the best option for backup PG.
That means that someone’s the odd man out; someone doesn’t get his minutes.
Another place where we disagree: Will Bynum and Rodney Stuckey are not as bad as you think they are. In other words, playing Bynum isn’t stunting Stuckey. Playing Stuckey off the ball, even with a guy like Bynum, is a net positive.
Honestly the problem with this team is that we don’t have big men, and we have too many guards. Will Bynum is too good to sit. And in the frontcourt, we don’t have guys who are good enough to play.
You can’t blame that on Kuester. Kwame+Max+Wilcox. Where does that get you? Even in the East, it doesn’t get you to the Playoffs.
I don’t think I can make my point any more thoroughly, and I don’t think you can make yours more thoroughly.
I think we’ll be a bad team regardless of who plays, and I think I’ll be proven right.
You think we’ll be good if we banish Will Bynum, but I don’t think we’ll get a chance to find out if you’re correct, because that just ain’t gonna happen.
We’re going to have to agree to disagree.
brgulker
It has nothing to do with banishing Will Bynum. It has everything to do with using only 3 players at the the PG and OG positions when you have 3 players the quality of Rodney Stuckey, Rip Hamilton and Ben Gordon … while sitting down the 4th guard … in the right offensive system which suits their collective skill-set.
What Rodney Stuckey and Ben Gordon and Rip Hamilton need is to play a significant number of minutes in a Single-Double alignment which requires the PG … whoever he might be … to make the initial pass to the wing then UCLA cut to the low-post and come off the baseline for a Catch & Shoot opportunity by using the Single or Staggered Screen action on either side of the floor, after the wing player with the ball uses the pick set for for him by the UCLA back screener, with an accompanying Roll/Pop action, as the ball is being driven into the middle of the floor, and resulting High-Low action from the 2 Post players … whoever they may be … when the ball is then being passed from the middle to either wing.
If a Pistons’ coach was to use this type of basic alignment and series of structured set plays, then, each of Rodney Stuckey and Ben Gordon could succeed at the PG position for Detroit, in concert with multi-talented wing players like Tayshaun Prince and Jonas Jerebko, at the SF position, and even low skill level offensive Bigs like Ben Wallace, Kwame Brown, Jason Maxiell and Chris Wilcox.
Q1. Could this type of set-up also work effectively if the Pistons decided to go with a 3 guard rotation at the PG and OG positions with the actual players being Rodney Stuckey, Rip Hamilton and Will Bynum … instead of Ben Gordon?
A1. No, it would not; primarily because Will Bynum simply does not shoot the ball from the perimeter nearly as effectively as does Ben Gordon, in order to stretch the defense and create additional easy scoring opportunities for his teammates.
There is nothing wrong with Will Bynum as a solid PG in the NBA … except that he doesn’t mesh, as a PG with the skill-sets of Rodney Stuckey, Rip Hamilton and Ben Gordon, who the Pistons just signed for a boatload of $$$.
Will Bynum is one who needs to go … not because I happen not to like him as a player, but … because he doesn’t fit into Joe D.’s long term equation for success for the Pistons.
khandor
Will Bynum is one who needs to go … not because I happen not to like him as a player, but … because he doesn’t fit into Joe D.’s long term equation for success for the Pistons.
Hm. Interesting. Here’s what Joe Dumars had to say about Will Bynum back in December:
I think what Will has done is solidify himself here as a one of our core guys going forward. He has cemented himself as one of the core members here. That’s how we look at him. We look at him as a long-term guy who’s going to grow with this team. Will was given an opportunity last year, when we signed him and brought him aboard, and he’s one of those kids that got the opportunity and he just grabbed it and took it and never let it go. He’s the poster child of when you get that opportunity, don’t let it slip. And he hasn’t. He hasn’t let it slip.
….
I look at him as a game-changer and whenever you have a player like that, people are going to be interested. But let me be clear, sitting here right now, we have no notion of letting Will walk out of the door. We’ll re-sign him and he’ll be one of the core members here for a long time.
By your own comments here, Joe Dumars is a top notch/elite GM. That elite GM believes that Will Bynum is a game-changer who will be retained by the Pistons over the long term.
So, either you’re correct, and Joe (and the DBB community) is wrong about Will Bynum. Or, you’re incorrect, and Joe (and the DBB community) is right about Will Bynum.
Or, it could be that ...
Joe D. is right about Will Bynum’s ability as a game changer, and I am in complete agreement with this perception.
This does not mean, however, that Will Bynum is going to be a Piston for the long haul.
When a GM like Joe D. says,
“… sitting here right now, we have no notion of letting Will walk out of the door,”
what it means to me is that when the right deal comes along, Will Bynum – as a highly coveted game-changing player – is going to be shipped out of Detroit [in conjunction with another asset or two] for the solid Big Man the Pistons need to bring better balance to their guard and forward dominated roster, while building their team around Rodney Stuckey, Ben Gordon, Austin Daye, Jonas Jerebko, etc.
If Joe D. thinks that Will Bynum is the type of game-changing player … as a smallish PG, without great perimeter shooting ability … who is eventually going to be a key part of a revitalized Pistons team that becomes a legitimate contender in the EC in the immediate future … along with Rodney Stuckey, Ben Gordon, Rip Hamilton, Tayshaun Prince, Jonas Jerebko and Austin Daye … then, IMO, he is unfortunately going to be proven wrong, just as he’s been proven wrong in the past when it comes to evaluating the specific skill-sets of certain player’s incorrectly.
khandor
Selective reading, I think
bq .I think what Will has done is solidify himself here as a one of our core guys going forward. He has cemented himself as one of the core members here. That’s how we look at him. We look at him as a long-term guy who’s going to grow with this team.
How do you read that and come up with this?
bq .what it means to me is that when the right deal comes along, Will Bynum – as a highly coveted game-changing player – is going to be shipped out of Detroit [in conjunction with another asset or two] for the solid Big Man the Pistons need to bring better balance to their guard and forward dominated roster, while building their team around Rodney Stuckey, Ben Gordon, Austin Daye, Jonas Jerebko, etc.
To me, “core guy” means “I plan on keeping him around for several years.”
doh!
blockquote fail
I think what Will has done is solidify himself here as a one of our core guys going forward. He has cemented himself as one of the core members here. That’s how we look at him. We look at him as a long-term guy who’s going to grow with this team.
what it means to me is that when the right deal comes along, Will Bynum – as a highly coveted game-changing player – is going to be shipped out of Detroit [in conjunction with another asset or two] for the solid Big Man the Pistons need to bring better balance to their guard and forward dominated roster, while building their team around Rodney Stuckey, Ben Gordon, Austin Daye, Jonas Jerebko, etc.
It's a judgment call on my part
1. IMO, Joe D. is doing some high calibre PR work well in advance of when he will need to pull the trigger in the future on a deal for a solid Big Man. NBA GM’s seldom speak the whole truth when they give public interviews concerning what their future plans are for the development of their team.
2. As I said before, if Joe D. really thinks that Will Bynum is going to prove to be a long term Core Member of the Pistons team, as they climb back up the standings, given the other guards on their roster, then, I think that Pistons fans are going to be in the dulldrums for a extended period of time.
[i.e. IMO, Joe D. is a better judge of basketball talent than that.]
khandor
bynum is here to stay and will contribute greatly to the pistons future successes.
if the pistons hold on to bynum they will have great success. he is a unique basketball talent who’s game helps the pistons maximize their roster. many people have differing opinions on this, but if you look at it with an understanding of the game of basketball and know how high level coaches and gms approach the game you will see that his future is guaranteed as is the success of the pistons with him playing in a four guard rotation.
ah, hah ...
You mean the type of “success” the Pistons had last night, working their “4-guard rotation at the PG and OG spots” against the Pacers?
IMO, Joe D. is a pretty smart GM and, hopefully, he will be able to look past the obvious to see what’s really there … simmering beneath the surface … when it comes to assessing accurately what is ailing his club at-present.
If not, then, I just might need to re-evaluate my long-standing opinion of his ability, as one of the few top flight GM’s in the NBA.
khandor
mr khandor, while the causual Fan may Take that as "Proof" that Joe D's four Guard rotation is broken
those with true basketball Acumen will surely see Otherwise.
Q: is Joe D an elite basketball mind with a history of Running an elite program
if the answer to this is yes Then perhaps you may want to think about who has the best Ideas for running the pistons, Joe D an elite basketball mind or Mr. Khandor who is a “fan”
;)
well ...
If someone reads what I have to say about the game and still happens to think that “all” I am is just a “fan”, like they are, perhaps, then … unfortunately for them … that says a great deal about their own degree of understanding about NBA hoops.
khandor
you’re a maniac khandor. I almost enjoy your cartoonishly roundabout way of hinting at your own importance, but come on, it’s been months since you started posting here. If you’re going to keep doing it, you eventually need to take off the mask and tell us who you are… otherwise it’s just weird.
Gabe F-B
The facts are …
1. If I’d wanted to do that, I’d have done it already.
2. I’m quite alright with you and others thinking, “it’s just weird.”
3. Yesterday, my sports service successfully hit its 5th consecutive Super Bowl Winner [i.e. New Orleans, +4.5].
4. Those who prefer to think that what I write on-line is little more than nonsense, and/or that “I am just another fan”, like they are, are completely free to hold that opinion, if they wish.
5. On thing that’s, at least, somewhat gratifying to see, however, concerning this new web site for DBB, is that the outright negative comments about me being “some sort of troll” have now [finally] ceased.
Best wishes to you, sir.
Hopefully Joe Dumars, John Kuester and the Pistons will be able to turn their ship around, in the not-too-distant future.
IMO, there’s a great deal of class and accomplishment associated with the franchise that I have the utmost degree of R.E.S.P.E.C.T. for, as a long-time observer of Deeetroit Pistons basketball.
khandor
1) This is true:
Those who prefer to think that what I write on-line is little more than nonsense, and/or that "I am just another fan", like they are, are completely free to hold that opinion, if they wish.
2) This is your opinion:
If someone reads what I have to say about the game and still happens to think that "all" I am is just a "fan", like they are, perhaps, then … unfortunately for them … that says a great deal about their own degree of understanding about NBA hoops.
Those two things are not the same.
Gabe F-B
As I said …
1. You are free to think as you wish.
2. In fact … both observations, although, strictly speaking, not the same, are simply my opinion.
3. If they were the same, then the second would be redundant and I would not have said it in the first place.
khandor
actually ...
Smart money might say that the Pistons would probably be somewhere in the neighbourhood of 21-22 [i.e. just below the .500 mark]; while the Cavaliers would, in all likelihood, be in the vacinity of 27-19 [i.e. about .587].
khandor
brgulker
If I was quoting Gabe B-F, then, I would have attributed the quote directly to him, courtesy of DBB.
What I wrote on my blog is in fact not a quote from Gabe B-F, at all, or anyone else specifically who contributes comments to this site.
Stictly as a point of information, this is definition of paranoia … which can sometimes be the case in a situation where someone thinks that something applies to them specifically, when the fact is that it does not, at least, not in isolation.
Like you, I also enjoy engaging in fruitful discussions with intelligent people on-line.
PS. My apologies, re: the triple post. It’s important to try and get things done right, whenever possible.
PPS. Hopefully, Matt W will simply be able to edit out versions 1 and 2. If so, thanks, in advance.
khandor
i almost deleted all three
but with great power, comes great responsibility, or something like that.
khandor,
That’s an exact quote (or very, very close approximation) of what Gabe said to you directly via the comments at DBB.
I do’nt have a problem with you disagreeing. We all agree that sports debates are fun, especially when good-spirited. However, I think the tone of your post over at your blog was overly negative, and it directly referenced a DBB commenter without linking to this blog specifically.
It came across, at least to me, as very backhanded and disrespectful.
I’m not saying you’re a bad guy; I am saying that I have a problem with this particular action.
brgulker
I understand where you’re coming from with this.
However, although it may seem as though that’s a direct quote from Gabe F-B, it’s really not.
In fact, I can recall deliberating whether or not I should actually provide a direct quote from anyone at all when I chose the wording of my blog entry, and expressly chose to go in a different than that [i.e. the reason I used “NBA Team Fan X”, in concert with the pseudo quote which I invented].
In my daily travails around the internet, those basic sentiments which are expressed by Gabe F-B, and you, and others who contribute here, as well, are quite common to basketball fans on many different sites.
i.e. If I’d wanted to single out any 1 specific person, or web site, for holding this opinion … I simply would have written my blog entry in that way. In this instance, however, that’s not what I chose to do; yet, you are choosing to interpret what I wrote in that way, regardless. IMO, this is wrong on your part.
On the other hand, I have no difficulty, whatsoever, acknowledging that the specific sentiments which I’m referencing in that blog entry do in fact reflect some of the thinking of an individual like Gabe F-B, who contributes comments to DBB.
As I’ve shown in the past, anyone who would like to discuss with me the actual merits of holding an opinion like that, i.e. the quality of a team’s coach plays only a minimal part in the way that team actually performs on the floor … should feel free to do so.
khandor
On the other hand, I have no difficulty, whatsoever, acknowledging that the specific sentiments which I’m referencing in that blog entry do in fact reflect some of the thinking of an individual like Gabe F-B, who contributes comments to DBB.
Alright. As long as you’re cool with admitting that publicly, I have no issues.
news flash: there are nude greg oden photos on the internet
that is one search query I will not be entering into google. vomit.
http://technorati.com/sports/article/greg-oden-nude-photos-hit-the/
Just noticed the author — MLive’s own (and DBB fave) Patrick Hayes. Very cool. (Not that he’s writing about nude Greg Oden, but that he’s writing about sports for Technorati.)
I think he's the main editor of sports there, too
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