The 2010 NBA All-Overrated Team
by Kevin Sawyer on Oct 7, 2010 12:41 PM EDT
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PrintThis is the most wonderful time of the year. The time when we set aside our own agonies and disappointments (do it, do it now!), and focus on kicking other people's puppies. It's the 2010 NBA All-Overrated Team!
Last year's list failed to yield any eating of crow on my part. Only Lamar Odom actually played his way off, turning in a stellar defensive season for which Ron Artest got all the credit.
Last year, I apologized to Brandon Roy, and un-apologized to Monta Ellis for prior inclusions. I will take this opportunity to un-apologize to Roy. What happened there? In four months, Portland went from contender of the future to the OKC Thunder's first round fodder of the future.
Use this time to make up your own caveats about how this is an overrated list and not a "worst players" list and stuff.
FIRST TEAM
G - Kobe Bryant
I can't count how many articles I read this summer, announcing that LeBron James isn't the king anymore after his PR debacle of a summer, and that the crown has been restored to Kobe Bryant. Setting aside the fact that this topic is utterly inane, this is what philosophers like to call a false choice.
Kobe is a fine player, and a deserving all-star. But, from a purely basketball perspective, Pau Gasol is the star of that show. He has even become a better passer. If Kobe isn't the best player on his own team, he isn't the best player in basketball, and he'd have to contend with Dwyane Wade, Kevin Durant, Dwight Howard and Tim Duncan besides.
G - Derrick Rose
A superstar in the making, an all-star already... But enough about Kevin Durant. At this point, it is clear that Derrick Rose has some serious gaps in his game, notably shooting and defense, which come in handy at the pro level. He has yet to demonstrate a superior ability to get to the free throw line, and he is not an outstanding distributor, both of which facts will make it difficult for him to succeed at the point guard position. What part of this profile "superstar" to you?
C - Brendan Haywood
When a once in a decade free agent frenzy hits, you can be sure that some sensible, 10 and 10 guy is going to be wildly overpaid. It's like how used Honda Civics and Toyota Corollas cost $15k during a spike in fuel prices.
So it's not surprising that a guy like Haywood would hit the jackpot. What is surprising is that nobody thought it was a bad idea. The people who were up in arms about Travis Outlaw type signings were mum on the fact that Dallas paid $50 million to re-sign a middling center in his thirties. The NBA: Where "Average is the new Awesome" happens.
F - Carmelo Anthony
For a spell, it looked like Anthony was going to play himself off the list. He was hitting shots, getting to the line with absurd frequency, and the Nuggets were looking like threats to come out of the West. Then he reverted to the old 'Melo, with the 10-29 shooting nights and stretches of missed games.
Look, if the only thing you're going to do is shoot, you'd better be really, really good at it if you want to turn down $60 million contracts. Like Reggie Miller good. Carmelo Anthony is not Reggie Miller good.
F - Rudy Gay
It would he hard to find a more average player than Rudy Gay. For his position, he's an average shooter, passer, rebounder and defender. He gets to the lane an average amount of time, and hits an average percentage of his attempts. He is the average height and weight, and plays the average position (small forward). Naturally, he is now one of the highest paid professional athletes in this or any sport.
SECOND TEAM
G - Monta Ellis
The cat came back. Because Monta was so aggressive about identifying shooting opportunities, he managed to score a ridiculous number of points. Most fans and writers know to sniff out players who put up gawdy point totals for lousy teams, but there is a point (somewhere around 25 ppg) that they begin to ignore all perspective.
Here's some perspective. The guy led the league in minutes for the fastest-paced team in the league. He had the ball on virtually every possession. You expect big numbers from a guy like that. What you don't expect is for his team to be substantially worse when he is on the court. That was the case with Ellis.
G - Baron Davis
He was always one of those shoot-first point guards who can't shoot (he posted negative offensive win shares his rookie season, which is hard to do), but he always supplemented his game by distributing, playing some defense, and getting to the line a bit more than the average bear. He's still distributing, so his numbers are kind of like what Jamaal Tinsley's would look like if he insisted on shooting 16 times per game. So yeah, the Clippers did not make the playoffs last year.
C- David Lee
There are some people who passionately love this dude. I get it. He put up big numbers as a largely unheralded leader of a terrible basketball team. Yes, he's that 20-10 guy nobody knows is a 20-10 guy.
About that last bit. Here's what we think we know about 20-10 guys... They score, they create offense, they play defense, and they rebound. But Lee only does one of those things at an elite level. He doesn't create his own shot, or do much on the offensive glass. He's a notoriously lousy defender. Those huge rebounding numbers stem from the fact that he was on a team with no other rebounders. His rebounding rate isn't particularly impressive.
Put him alongside your average power forward, and the guy gives you David West numbers. That's not going to turn this Warriors franchise around.
F - Caron Butler
The Mavericks brought him in as the final piece for their championship run, which goes a long way toward explaining why the Mavericks didn't have one. I've never understood Butler's appeal, and now that he's old, I don't think he has any.
Theoretically, he can stop Kobe Bryant, but he isn't a great defender generally, and what you really need to stop the Lakers is to stop Gasol and Bynum. He also can't really shoot, so he has no business taking minutes from (for example) Jason Terry. Yet the perception remains that he is a borderline all-star. Not buying, not even on my fantasy team.
X - The Top Three Picks in the 2010 NBA Draft
I can't just pick one. This draft class was so over-hyped, the best player was picked fifth for some reason, and there are so many reasons why each of these guys has failed to impress me.
John Wall did nothing in college that would make one think he's going to be a superstar, and couldn't get easy baskets playing alongside DeMarcus Cousins. Evan Turner was awful in summer league, which is a very ominous sign, though I still think he'll be the best of the three. Derrick Favors is a project, and the success rate of "projects" is not at all good. Prediction: DeMarcus Cousins makes more all-star teams than these three combined.
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Nice work
Use this time to make up your own caveats about how this is an overrated list and not a “worst players” list
+1 on this.
Great read, gonna have to go ahead and disagree with ya there on Lee, but that aside, very nice.
Looking forward to watching GSW, should be an interesting test case— if Biedrins stays healthy, Lee is played primarily at PF, Curry improves a bit, and someone tells Ellis to chill, there’s some mystery metrics which suggest that could be a surprisingly good team. A wild card is SG/SF Reggie Williams, he’s super under the radar, but his college stats projected him to be a solid NBA player, and now he’s getting his chance with GSW.
Williams was great last year
Funny that two of the bright spots for that team (Williams and Tolliver) were D-League cast-offs.
"Detroit Bad Boys is full of HOMOS ,JACKASSES and NON-sports fans."
-ralphgoblue/thunder_god08
I agree with everyone on this list except Lee
I’d put Ellis on the first team over Kobe, because at the very least he has the track record and stats to back up his status as an elite player. Ellis has stats so empty that he’s practically a net-negative player. I mean, how many 25+ ppg player have sub-100 offensive ratings?
Lee, if anything, is underrated. Teams should’ve been pursuing the hell out of him over Boozer. The idea that he can’t create his own shot is absurd. The Knicks had to run their offense through him at points because CHRIS DUHON was their freaking point guard. For some reason, people have this idea that he’s some unathletic white stiff who was standing alone in the paint cherry-picking rebounds and scoring on open dunks. When you can score 20+ ppg as efficiently as he does — especially on a roster as dysfunctional as the Knicks teams he was on — you are not overrated. Lee is probably the best passing big man in the game right now, as well, which gets absolutely no mention whatsoever. And, while I agree he isn’t a good defender, a lot of that can be chalked up to the miserable help defense he had in NY and being forced to play out of position at center.
/tirade over
"Detroit Bad Boys is full of HOMOS ,JACKASSES and NON-sports fans."
-ralphgoblue/thunder_god08
by Thom_not_Tom on Oct 7, 2010 1:12 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
Oh, and Lee actually beat James "Flight" White in a high school dunk contest
"Detroit Bad Boys is full of HOMOS ,JACKASSES and NON-sports fans."
-ralphgoblue/thunder_god08
by Thom_not_Tom on Oct 7, 2010 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Great job
you get a rec!
Follow me on Twitter: AllThatAmar
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by AllThatJazzBasketball on Oct 7, 2010 1:18 PM EDT reply actions
David Lee Statistical Ignorance FTW
Nice write-up otherwise, and agreed pretty much across the board. But on Lee, man you are stubborn, and you don’t like stats (save for PER and wp!!).
They score, they create offense, they play defense, and they rebound
1. They Score.
He scores, and vastly more efficiently than any other of the 20-10 guys in the league. He scores. Check.
2. They Create Offense.
Lee was amongst the league’s best isolation bigs, meaning he created surprisingly well for himself. Oh, and he’s the league’s second best passing big behind Josh Smith with 3.6 assists per game. He creates offense. Check.
3. They play defense.
He does not play defense. No checks.
4. They rebound.
Third best rebounding total in the league last season. Put up a top 200 ever rebounding rate the season before. His total rebounding rate this last season was on par with what Shaq and Duncan were doing at Lee’s age. He rebounds. Check.
Oh, and this 20-10 guy who scores more efficiently than others, is quite adept at creating for himself and his teammates and rebounds at an all-star rate— he’s doing so for $10.8 Million this year.
OVER-RATED!! clap-clap-clapclapclap. No.
witty signature
also
That’s not going to turn this Warriors franchise around.
With the Warriors firing the P&R h8r Don Nelson, with second year stud Stephen Curry manning the point (having talked repeatedly about an eagerness to move to P&R offenses this season), I don’t see how it doesn’t improve the team to bring in one of the most elite pick-and-roll men in the last few years.
(even without a solid pick-and-roll ball handler, the Knicks ran 353 pick and roll plays for Lee last year, on which he converted at a ridiculous 65.4%)
witty signature
He scores at an elite level
I think I made that clear.
Regarding rebounding rate, I think you are confusing BR’s rebounding percentage with rebounding rate. The former exacerbates the problem I have with Lee. In terms of rebounding rate, he was tied for 18th in the league last year.
His assist ratio was 10th among centers. He was probably about there in terms of creating his own shot.
Again, good numbers. David West caliber player. He doesn’t suck. Franchise player? No.
Depends on your definition of "Franchise Player"
I kid, I kid.
by C$ on Oct 7, 2010 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions
The David West comparison isn't apt at all
West isn’t as efficient as Lee, nor does he rebound as well. And, seriously, if you put Lee with Chris Paul he’d average 25 ppg at least. You’re selling Lee short.
And, even if you feel Lee isn’t as good as his stats show, who is overrating him? All I ever hear about him is that he doesn’t play defense and his numbers are inflated by D’Antoni’s system (which is total bullshit, by the way).
"Detroit Bad Boys is full of HOMOS ,JACKASSES and NON-sports fans."
-ralphgoblue/thunder_god08
Regarding rebounding rate, I think you are confusing BR’s rebounding percentage with rebounding rate. The former exacerbates the problem I have with Lee. In terms of rebounding rate, he was tied for 18th in the league last year.
Rebounding Rate, Rebounding %, tomato/tomato. Again, at this age in his career, Lee’s numbers are pretty much at par with Tim Duncan and Shaq at the same respective age. However, you say: “His rebounding rate isn’t particularly impressive.” Which is ridiculous.
His assist ratio was 10th among centers.
But he served up more assists than any center, and more than every frontcourt player other than Josh Smith. So his “ratio” was less, but he served up more? This would be an interesting point if Lee was not an efficient scorer. Since he is, I don’t understand how this is a knock.
Again, good numbers. David West caliber player. He doesn’t suck. Franchise player? No.
I know your analysis starts and ends with “hmmm, what’s his PER?” and lately you’ve added “hmmm, what’s his wp/48?”— but those 10,000 ft. stats don’t show the detail of why players like Lee are special.
Franchise player? No.
Show me anyone that is calling David Lee a franchise player. Your perception on Lee’s media valuation is overrated, not the ability of the player.
witty signature
Rebounding Rate, Rebounding %, tomato/tomato
Well, no. They yield dramatically different results. Duncan had a better rebounding rate last season, and he’s not quite an elite rebounder. Lee’s rebounding rate is 18th in the league among centers, which does not particularly impress me.
But he served up more assists than any center, and more than every frontcourt player other than Josh Smith.
Dude. You spent all summer arguing that this fact doesn’t matter, w/r/t Greg Monroe. I agree that he is a top 10-15 passing center. His A/TO is 7th among bigs, but his assist ratio is a bit lower. Not bad, but not amazing. H
I know your analysis starts and ends with "hmmm, what’s his PER?" and lately you’ve added "hmmm, what’s his wp/48?
Those stats LOVE David Lee. I think they miss the mark, for the reasons I have listed.
Show me anyone that is calling David Lee a franchise player. Your perception on Lee’s media valuation is overrated, not the ability of the player.
The Warriors call him a franchise player, by virtue of having offered a near max contract AND having traded three solid players with great contracts. Find me anyone (other than me) who has called foul on this.
by Kevin Sawyer on Oct 8, 2010 12:33 AM EDT up reply actions
$10.8M in 2010-11 is not a near-max contract; it’s only 1.538 Chunky Charlie units.
by -PS- on Oct 8, 2010 12:45 AM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
lol
That’s great
"I’m tired of hearing about money, money, money, money, money. I just want to play the game, drink Pepsi, wear Reebok." ~Shaq
by Max_in_Missouri on Oct 8, 2010 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Dude. You spent all summer arguing that this fact doesn’t matter, w/r/t Greg Monroe.
Dude. No I didn’t. Use the search bar, read what I wrote in my season preview about ball movement.
I agree that he is a top 10-15 passing center.
You’re not agreeing with me, since I never said that. He is the number one passing center in the league. You can argue rates, but the hard season numbers don’t lie.
Those stats LOVE David Lee.
Not as much as you love Amare Stoudemire, for reasons I assume are borne in those same rates.
The Warriors call him a franchise player, by virtue of having offered a near max contract AND having traded three solid players with great contracts.
$10.8/M for a 26-year-old player != max. The players they traded for him were amongst a wing glut even more nasty than what the Pistons have, albeit more talented. The result is Stephen Curry and David Lee, which is > > > > > > > > than anything the Pistons even have hope of fielding. Come on, man.
Find me anyone (other than me) who has called foul on this.
Which I’ll gladly do when you find me anyone other than a homer that thinks David Lee is a franchise player. He’s not. He’s a cut above an all-star, but a chop below a superstar.
witty signature
At 32 to 1
I like him. I think he’s in a situation where he could put up huge numbers. It’s Durant vs. the field right now, but if the Knicks surprise everyone (and I think they will), Amare is going to get a lot of attention.
yeah he will get a lot of attention
if he can lead them to even an 8th seed, but thats more the virtue of the market he’s in.
Enjoyable read
What’s more fun than arguing about who is better than who? I’m gonna say that I don’t think Lee is overrated, but that Amare is. He’s a horrible defender and not as good a rebounder as Lee. Can’t see how the Knicks improved with that switch. I wish Lee had gone to Phoenix or Utah – I think either of those teams would be better for him.
As for rookies, I agree Cousins should be great. Kahn only knows why Minny didn’t either take him or use the 4th pick to benefit themselves more. I think Philly and Jersey will one day wish they’d nabbed him, even if Turner and Favors turn out okay. But I think Wall is gonna be awesome – much better than Rose is or ever will be.
How is Kobe Overated?
Hes the second best player in the league.
by BennieBladesFan on Oct 7, 2010 2:24 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
apparently kobe is the second best player on his team
the things you learn on the internet
gasol is better than kobe now.
watch the lakers. they can survive a bad night from kobe, but when gasol is taken out of the game they look awful.
Jonas obv.
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
by The Boourns on Oct 7, 2010 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
i would add
danny granger to the list in place of butler. and lemarcus aldridge in place of lee. also joe johnson’s name is screaming a lot louder than kobe’s when it comes to overrated.
Agreed with all of this...although I don't think Granger gets paid enough nor does he get publicized enough to be considered overrated...the same might be said of Aldridge but to a lesser extent.
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
paid
aldridge makes much more than lee. still yeah the pub…butler gets pub? granger scores just as empty a 25 ppg as ellis.
Both were under strong consideration
Granger, though, is an efficient scorer. He doesn’t take shots that cost his team, even if he doesn’t produce a whole lot in other categories.
Aldridge isn’t on here because I feel like a lot of people soured on him this year, and because the Blazers want to move him.
Butler is just a lousy basketball player. People think of him as a potent weapon on a loaded arsenal.
granger
scored 24 ppg and shot .428. yeah, he’s efficient.
He had an off year
With injuries and such… He’s 45% for his career, which is very good considering the number of three-pointers he hits. He also gets to the line a lot, and converts at a high percentage.
idk
i’m not buying it. if he was actually good (productive) the pacers would be better. he’s missing something.
wrong...the Pacers aside from Granger, Murphy, and Hibbert
were TURRIBLE last year. Their 1st round pick barely played because of a flipping ear infection…LOOK AT ME I’M TYLER HANSBROUGH MY BALANCE IS OFF BECAUSE I’M AN IDIOT!
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
LA is a lil bit better than worthless
he is soft like a bathrobe at the four seasons. he makes CV look like Piotr Rasputin.
by dandresden on Oct 7, 2010 9:39 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
kobe made your list last year
4th highest ppg
above career average in rebounds and assists
won a championship
and you still think you’re saying something smart.
you might be an intelligent guy, but on this point, you’re just being retarded
He's not saying Kobe sucks.
He’s saying Kobe isn’t as good as many people say. Hence, “overrated.” Now, the hard part is defining how Kobe is rated. I tend to base it on awards received as well as those predicted by pundits. Kobe is lauded as though he is a top-5 player. He is not a top 5 player, therefore he is overrated.
More to the player than PPG, dawg
Gasol scores, does so more efficiently, rebounds, blocks shots, passes, and does it all without dominating the ball.
wisdom of crowds
what % of people would take gasol over kobe if they were starting a team?
you can come up with a bunch of flaws with my “wisdom of crowds” logic, but if you think you’re in the severe minority, i’ll just say it’s possible you’re making a stupid argument.
so it’s possible you’re just so much smarter than everyone else, but, i find you’re arrogance misplaced and bizarre
dawg
This whole post...
Is an argument against the wisdom of crowds. We know what it looks like when the average person takes over a basketball team. Ask the guys at Canus Hoopus how that goes.
let me rephrase
yes the average person is stupid. fair point.
but ask a lot of smart people about your dumb “gasol > kobe” – i think you’ll still be in the minority. whether kevin sawyer agrees or not, kobe has been one of the best shooting guards of all time.
i don’t even like kobe. i just hate stupid pithy internet people that think their off-the-wall ideas are genius.
so if you want to say “people say kobe IS the best but he’s only ONE of the best, therefore he’s overrated” – well, just seems silly.
if you want to say kobe isn’t one of the best ever, then i guess all the NBA players that think he’s one of the best don’t know what they’re talking about.
by redwingxviii on Oct 7, 2010 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
my argument is that kobe is one of the best players of all time and is not overrated
do i need to look up his career stats or no?
"best shooting guards"
corrected.
saying “gasol gets more rebounds” seems silly. i mean, joel pryzbilla might be better than kobe too
yes that makes perfect sense
gabe wins the internet again
you need it more than me
please, keep it
This isn't an indictment of Kobe's career, though.
It’s about where he is right now. Which is behind Gasol.
Your reasoning and logic have no place here, Boy.
" I love Sam Cassell, he's a great guy... but he does look like E.T." -Charles Barkley
the wrong son died
"Don’t really know shit about White other than he is a colon of Stuckey" - das SmittyJ
And here I thought I knew White like the palm of my hand
by bearded thundar on Oct 7, 2010 6:39 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
+ 1 for the verbal bitch smack.
I guffawed on that one.
I also highly support Kevin’s use of Dawg. Good ’ol DBB.
gasol
right now give me gasol over kobe to start. but 6-7 years ago no. kobe’s drive is more valuable than his production. he put so much pressure on kupchak to turn that lakers team around. what would dumars do under that pressure? would he finally trade somebody?
I"m with ya on this one.
I’d love for Kobe to be an arrogant, overrated dweeb. But his track record and his aura suggest otherwise. Being, for example, the 6th best player in the league rather than the widely considered 2nd best doesn’t make someone overrated.
My blogs: pakagankarachi.livejournal.com (dormant)
burmahunkalove.livejournal.com (occasional signs of life)
by MrHappyMushroom on Oct 8, 2010 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions
and for the record
gasol should have been finals MVP.
doesn’t make kobe overrated though.
So…
Gasol > Kobe. Yet, Kobe is still one of the greatest players of all time? That doesn’t add up, unless you’re also going to throw Gasol in there as one of the GOATs as well.
gasol played better than kobe for 7 games
in that one series.
by redwingxviii on Oct 12, 2010 6:51 PM EDT up reply actions
I have to ask...
if you think we’re all arrogant and base our basketball opinions on numbers alone, why do you come here at all?
You’re argument in general is completely off base with the article in general. You keep bringing up career numbers (something you hate, after all numbers have funny visual shapes and are hard to interpret) but this particular article has is not about “all time NBA all-overrated team.” It’s about 2010 based upon our most current information. It does us no good at all to write an article about 2010 using information about Kobe from when he was playing at his peak. It is best to take what we know (both visually and statistically) from more recent seasons.
If this was an all time article, of course nobody would call Kobe overrated. But it’s not. Right now, Kobe is a bit over rated. Still good, but overrated none the less.
Demarcus makes more all star games if.....
he doesn’t baloon to 350 lbs. Is he Oliver Miller or Big Baby?
You can't reap the reward if you don't first take the risk.
cousins
will be fine because he is a rebounding machine.
I knew Cousins would show up in such a CONTROVERSIAL post.
by C$ on Oct 7, 2010 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
The only thing more CONTROVERSIAL than DeMarcus Cousins’s appearance in this CONTROVERSIAL post is the author’s CONTROVERSIAL decision to not include a sure-to-be CONTROVERSIAL listing of the most CONTROVERSIAL players in the league.
by -PS- on Oct 7, 2010 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Preview of said CONTROVERSIAL players
1. DeMarcus Cousins
2. DeMarcus Cousins
3. DeMarcus Cousins
by C$ on Oct 7, 2010 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Rounding out the starting five...
4. DeMarcus Cousins
5. DeMarcus Cousins
by -PS- on Oct 7, 2010 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
After a couple years here on the boards,
it’s pretty clear that Sawyer just hates the Kobe. No matter how much he wins. This has got to be at least a couple years running having the Finals MVP on the “Most Overrated List,” that point alone making it hard to take the post seriously. And “Carmelo is no Reggie Miller”— wow. Pretty sure Reggie Miller would tell you that, and he’d be in the Melo>Reggie camp. Put Carmelo on those gritty defensive-minded Pacers teams of the 90’s and I’m pretty sure they improve, which basically means championship.
by The Joel on Oct 7, 2010 3:37 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I don't have an opinion of Kobe one way or the other
He is not as good as he is perceived to be. That’s it.
Regarding Miller, he is certainly a better shooter, which was my assertion in the post. He has the highest true shooting percentage of any guard in history.
Is Anthony a better player? I’m not so sure about that. Take a look at Reggie’s career stats. Dude shot the lights out, and shot quite frequently for teams that played at a very slow pace.
Reggie vs. Carmelo
There’s an argument to be made either way. Reggie scored much more efficiently. Anthony is slightly better rebounder and passer. The main difference is Anthony’s usage rate is significantly higher.
So, who is better? The guy that takes a ton of shots and makes a decent number of them, or a guy that takes a decent number of shots and makes a ton of them?
Good summation
I don’t have a strong opinion either way, because I actually think Anthony defies the metrics a little bit. His clutch performance has been empirically demonstrated, for example.
kobe's career
Kobe for his career is:
12th in points
17th in player efficiency
23rd in 3 pointers made
28th in steals
55th in assists
175th in rebounds
177th in blocks
i doubt you care
but, last season Kobe wasn’t in the top 20 in Win Shares or WS/48. And if PER is your thing, he was 13th using that metric. Berri’s Wins Produced rates him lower than either of those.
hence, Kevin’s point— people think Kobe’s the best or second best player in the league. He’s not.
he's a frequent top 10 in all of those things you mention on these links
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2009_leaders.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2008_leaders.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2007_leaders.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2006_leaders.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2005_leaders.html (this is the worst one of the bunch)
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2004_leaders.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2003_leaders.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2002_leaders.html
and that’s as far back as it goes i think.
do stats tell the whole story?
just asking.
out of curiosity
who is the typical SBN commenter?
i mean no offense, but i’m guessing it’s a college student that never played much sports, but enjoys watching and reading as much as anyone. fair or unfair?
the emphasis on “modern” stats on these sites is quite surreal to me. my buddies and i think we have a pretty good handle on “who’s good and who’s not” and i think we draw generally the same conclusions as the people that spend time researching modern statistics on basketball-reference.
it’s just that we don’t believe our bullshit as much as you seem to believe in yours.
Good question.
I am a wealthy industrialist, originally from Belgium and now living most of the year on a yacht in the Caribbean, with part-time residences in eight cities across the world. On my mother’s side I am descended from James Naismith, and my father’s ancestors include Newton and Leibniz, which explains my affinity for basketball statistics. In addition to my global business empire, my other pursuits include breeding prize-winning race horses, conducting international espionage, and space travel.
by -PS- on Oct 7, 2010 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions 13 recs
I dig
your waffles and facetiousness.
" I love Sam Cassell, he's a great guy... but he does look like E.T." -Charles Barkley
Wait...
Jerebko has been commenting here the whole time?
by Kevin Sawyer on Oct 7, 2010 5:30 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Do you prefer Dos Equis?
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
by The Boourns on Oct 7, 2010 7:42 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
wait you're a decendent of Leibniz and Newton?
That’s insanity! You must be even better at math than I am
"Don’t really know shit about White other than he is a colon of Stuckey" - das SmittyJ
And here I thought I knew White like the palm of my hand
by bearded thundar on Oct 7, 2010 10:20 PM EDT up reply actions
If This Claessens Dude Is So Interesting & Wealthy..
..how come zilch turns up on him on Wikipedia?
Just Vpinion
by V. on Apr 22, 2011 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions
thanks
collectively, we’re #3 in win shares per 48 minutes.
was just a friendly question – i didn’t say we were better or worse than anyone.
but i do think the lot of you are arrogant people that believe you’re calculations give you a heightened understanding of sports
I am far less arrogant than the other wealthy industrialists in my peer group.
by -PS- on Oct 7, 2010 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
your post was one i liked
i’m guessing you are potentially joining a legitimate firm or company upon graduation, if you haven’t already done so.
quick question stat man PS
how many wins for the pistons this year?
my uneducated guess is 26.
checked a few sites - don't think vegas set a line yet
hard to lose 60 games, but the pistons have managed to do it a few times. i don’t think i could take the over at 26
I for one am extremely arrogant.
And far more intelligent than the likes of you.
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
by The Boourns on Oct 7, 2010 7:43 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Personally I am incredibly modest
In fact, it’s safe to safe that I am by far the most humble person on this board. No one is more modest than I am!!!
There's no justice like angry mob justice!
by bugman222 on Oct 7, 2010 8:27 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
far more subtle than me green'd
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
"They're just a bunch of nerds"
“Stats don’t support my thinking, therefore they’re invalid”
Jonas, jag älskar dig! Du är vacker.
by Kriz on Oct 7, 2010 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
i said neither of those things
and in fact, i said the complete opposite of one of them.
“we generally come to the same conclusions”
When I played basketball
I specialized in getting rebounds, not because I was athletic, but because nobody else wanted to do so. I also hated the kids took a lot of shots, missed most of them, and considered themselves bad-ass for doing so.
But that’s not the point. The point is that making shots wins ball games. Missing shots, therefore, does what? Kobe doesn’t miss as often as other players. But he misses often enough that it’s obvious to any objective follower of the sport that he should give the ball to Gasol quite a bit more than he does.
LeBron would have 10 apg (and four rings) playing with Gasol. You can book it.
i think gasol would have 0 without Kobe
i’m not a fan of any of these players. LeBron is the best athlete I’ve ever seen. He’s ridiculous.
any of those 3 players are great right now. i just think gasol is the least great out of the 3.
who’s your pick for NBA champion this year? i guess the Heat because I think LBJ will be on a mission.
I'd guess the Heat
Because they have the best player in the NBA, a top five player in the NBA, and the best Power Forward in the Eastern Conference.
by Kevin Sawyer on Oct 8, 2010 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions
I’ll go on a hunger strike to keep that from happening.
by Biz Markie Moon on Oct 8, 2010 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Oddly enough, I’m the age of a college student, but I don’t go to college. Instead, I’m a janitor at the most prestigious technology university in the nation. I feel like I’m smarter than everyone around me, even though I’m not a student there.
And my best friend is Ben Affleck.
by Biz Markie Moon on Oct 7, 2010 7:29 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
My league manager used to put Kobe, LeBron and Durant on my fantasy team and say, "Choose."
Well, I gotta go with LeBron there.
I used to go with Kobe.
Why?
‘Cause fuck him, that’s why.
This signature is false.
My name is wes, and I ain't in this mess.
So it seem like you concede that Kobe is could be one of the top ten players in the league, and yet believe anyone who is ranks him as the top guard is using some slanted ranking system which is rife with intolerable bias.
And it seems like Red thinks that anyone who is in top ten can’t be overrated, or at least that if the player is considered overrated it must be the product of intolerable collusion.
To be overrated is to possess a reputation that exceeds one’s performance. In NBA circles, Bryant is commonly perceived as the best player in the league, regardless of position—and certainly no lower than the second- or third-best player. Statistics and observation suggest that he may be (only) slightly worse that this reputation. Fifth-best perhaps, top 10 or 20, and so on. He’s an All-Star and a historically great player. He just may not be, at this point in his career, the single best player in the NBA. Therefore he can be considered overrated. QED.
by -PS- on Oct 7, 2010 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions 9 recs
I think this is basically what Kevin and others said above, just phrased differently. Personally, I love Kobe’s game, but there’s a few players that I would choose ahead of him if starting a team from scratch in 2010.
yes but you have to include the second half of the post
needs to include that kobe is and has been “one of” the best players. it separates him from the rest of the clowns he lists, which by and large are all fair.
to put him on an overrated list is still dumb. whereas putting derrick rose on an overrated list makes a lot more sense.
rec'd
for Q.E.D.
"Don’t really know shit about White other than he is a colon of Stuckey" - das SmittyJ
And here I thought I knew White like the palm of my hand
by bearded thundar on Oct 7, 2010 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
after some initial confusion...
PS has me thoroughly convinced that Kobe is a fine addition to Kevin’s list. The QED was a nice touch, too. Very 2007 Lawyerboy of you.
Don Nelson
is #1 all time winningest coach is the nba.
/stat’d
He’s probably number 30 in terms of coaching quality.
by Roll The Dyess on Oct 7, 2010 6:31 PM EDT up reply actions
By and large
I find it unnecessary to argue with a list such as this because one can’t help but feel pangs of annoyance when a favorite player appears on it or an obvious candidate is left off (see the career of Boozer, Carlos).
However, as far as the rookies part goes, the statement about Cousins ultimately having more All Star appearances, whether true or not, seems a poor measuring stick. By that standard, Deron Williams and Jamaal Magloire are equally good, having an equal numer of appearances in the annual “Game Without Defense.”
Cousins being better than all of them may prove to be correct (I don’t personally believe this but stranger things have happened) but this section either needed to be improved with something kind of numbers (hard to do because they’re rookies and, duh, don’t have numbers yet) or just left off.
" I love Sam Cassell, he's a great guy... but he does look like E.T." -Charles Barkley
My Ctl+F is broken. It says there’s no “Stoudemire” on this whole page…
by Shinons on Oct 7, 2010 4:54 PM EDT reply actions 6 recs
i think to make the list, people have to think your good in the first place. maybe.
by C$ on Oct 7, 2010 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions
I put money on Stoudemire for MVP
If I put him on my list, it would be the literal opposite of putting my money where my mouth is.
This is what I would say if gambling were legal.
I'll work on that
After the Knicks make the playoffs.
Seriously, though, people hate Amare for precisely the same reasons they ought to hate Lee.
In reality, they ought to hate neither player. It’s just that Lee is hard to hate because he is less heralded.
by Kevin Sawyer on Oct 8, 2010 12:39 AM EDT up reply actions
Seriously, though, people hate Amare for precisely the same reasons they ought to hate Lee.
Amare is a bad rebounder. Lee is not. Lee does his jobs on the boards and with the same “lack of” frontcourt rebounders you knock Lee for. Oh, and between the two, Lee is actually healthy.
witty signature
David Lee is tough:
Amare tries to look tough:
by garrettelliott on Oct 8, 2010 1:13 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
whoah
Lee does his jobs on the boards and with the same "lack of" frontcourt rebounders you knock Lee for.
should read: “with the same ‘lack of’ frontcourt rebounders amare had.”
witty signature
My overrated list
G – Chauncey Billups
G – Ramon Sessions
F – David Lee
F – DeJuan Blair
C – Demarcus Cousins
Jonas, jag älskar dig! Du är vacker.
by Kriz on Oct 7, 2010 5:31 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Ironically
Avery Sharpe is always flat.
by Kevin Sawyer on Oct 7, 2010 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
I'm blaming the trumpet player mustache
It leaves his body is confused, and believes that it must be as obnoxious as possible
"Don’t really know shit about White other than he is a colon of Stuckey" - das SmittyJ
And here I thought I knew White like the palm of my hand
by bearded thundar on Oct 7, 2010 6:41 PM EDT up reply actions
I love this post
But I cannot understand your dislike of David Lee. He’s put up better numbers than Amare in the exact same system for two years, without Steve Nash creating shots for him. The dude is a beast, and if anything, he belongs on the underrated list.
Really, the post should map degrees of over- and under-ratedness against player salaries.
David Lee $10.8M is a MUCH better deal than “STAT” at $16.8M.
But Lee wouldn't look as interesting in the nude
That’s easily worth 6 million.
Jonas, jag älskar dig! Du är vacker.
I do not dislike him
David West is a good player. That’s not damning with faint praise.
My theory is this. Just as a player can put up big scoring numbers on a team with no scoring options, so too can a player put up big rebounding numbers on a team with no rebounding options.
Until Lee can put up big rebounding numbers for a team that rebounds well, he seems to exemplify my theory. If the Warriors win 30 games this year, will he take any blame? If not, why is he paid what he is paid?
But you're not objective
You put Lee under this microscope re: rebounding, but you don’t do the same with Amare, as pointed out above. You can choose any stat you want— rebound rates, %s, totals, Lee is far superior to your own golden child. And if Phoenix is a “good rebounding team”, its not from frontcourt players, but wings that rebound above the average for an NBA team. Stoudemire doesn’t have much competition for the boards on his own squad, but somehow he’s exempt from the nonsense you sling at Lee.
witty signature
by Mike Payne on Oct 7, 2010 7:54 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I like that you brought up the Warriors. I’m going to go out on a limb and say they’re going to be a winning team, or very close to it, and depending on some other unknowns out West (such as Houston and Denver if they start a rebuild), they’ll be fighting for a Playoff spot.
New York, OTOH, will be a losing team and miss the Playoffs. The reasons for both of those predictions in my opinion are David Lee’s remarkable, underappreciated productivity, and Amare’s wildly overrated lack of productivity.
I like that we got this out there. I’m looking forward to the litmus test of both theories.
And again, FWIW
I think this post is pretty awesome as a whole. Very well-written and very well-informed. But I always like a good debate so I’m taking you up on the point with which I disagree.
Interesting timing on a piece over at Wages of Wins
Regarding David Lee being very underrated: http://dberri.wordpress.com/2010/10/07/taking-the-overunder-on-awards-for-big-men/
by brgulker on Oct 9, 2010 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
awesome link
I clicked through to this page from the article. check it out, sort by wins/million, decreasing:
http://www.permanent-sketch.com/winsproduced/#/Season
Surprise, surprise…
For Jonas!!
Here's a question:
Can we differentiate “hype” from “overrated”? It seems to me that, though your assessment of the incoming rooks is potentially true, it’s difficult for a rookie to be rated at all before they’ve played in a single NBA game.
Even insofar as the draft itself is a “rating” of sorts, someone has to be drafted first. And second. And third and fifth, as it were.
Point being: hype seems to me like a projection of the future, whereas how “rated” a player is comes from an assessment of their past. And though high school and college and work outs help place potential talent on the draft board, the correlation between these means of assessment and actual NBA success is hardly a science. Otherwise Sam Bowie would be the best player of all time.
Am I making any sense here? Sound off, KS.
This signature is false.
I can’t really come up with anything on this list that seems completely erroneous. I think David Lee, if anything, is madly underrated, but everybody else has written the reasons why that is.
I’d honestly put Andrew Bynum as the most overrated center. Brendan Haywood may be overpaid, but Bynum’s always hurt, and is considered to be a top center when really, he just seems like Kendrick Perkins: Now with Less Scowls. This is just based on me watching.
I agree with Andrew Bynum on the list. Everyone talks how when healthy he’s one of the best centres in the league, but he’s just never healthy so I don’t see how people can keep saying that.
by garrettelliott on Oct 7, 2010 8:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Agree that injuries should factor in...
At the same time, Bynum WOULD be great if he were healthy, but everyone recognizes that he is not great because he is often injured. People regard him as he is, no?
by Kevin Sawyer on Oct 8, 2010 12:47 AM EDT up reply actions
I always get the vibe that people give him a pass and lump him as one of the best big men around despite his constant injuries. I think it helps that the Lakers keep winning championships, though.
by garrettelliott on Oct 8, 2010 1:14 AM EDT up reply actions
when bynum is healthy
he is constantly blowing close range shots even though he has his man beat. he’s like a giant west coast stuckey.
With Lopez, Williams, Morrow and Favors
the Nets have a couple nice pieces.
Jonas, jag älskar dig! Du är vacker.
Hmm
WojYahooNBA
Denver scout Mike Bratz is courtside for Nets-Celtics game in Newark. His eyes stayed on Derrick Favors, who has played 5 scoreless minutes.
Jonas, jag älskar dig! Du är vacker.
To be fair with Haywood
Is “Dallas gives a ridiculous contract to a big guy” exactly news?
Minnesotan Rockets fan
I think the best part in all this is the one big that they offered too little to (Gortat), is probably the best of
Dampier, Haywood, Gortat…
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
Here’s my take on the whole Kobe thing: Kobe’s overrated by casual fans and the media. Even though he’s a great player, he’s starting to decline, and I’d say at this point, Pau and him are really about equal. Lebron’s still a better player (if an even bigger asshole). And even then, I’d say the battle for the best player in the league is really between Dwyane Wade and Kevin Durant. But is Kobe still a killer? To an extent. I think he’s starting to force the whole “Gimme the ball, the game is on the line” thing (exhibit A: the final game of the season), but he’s still clutch. But due to the fact that he’s considered to now be the best player in the league, even though at this point Durant and Wade are better, he’s overrated.
Lebron’s in this conversation, but he lost his “The Guy” status after this summer.
by Biz Markie Moon on Oct 8, 2010 7:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Pau did a bit of whining last season because Kobe always got to take the clutch shot, so then Phil drew up a play for Pau and it went horribly awry. I think Phil actually had a bit of a devilish smile when he was asked about it later on, as if to say Pau needs to know his role and Kobe is the man.
by garrettelliott on Oct 8, 2010 8:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Something Kobe doesn't have a great percentage at.
Are you really clutch guy from the team if you’re the only one (seemingly) allowed to take them and don’t make them at a great percentage?
Also, Chauncey Billups is quite bad at those type of shots.
Jonas, jag älskar dig! Du är vacker.
They're not high percentage shots to begin with.
They’re always forced shots with a trap or double team and the best defenders guarding them. Kinda hard to hit those at a high percentage Kriz.
The artist formally known as DetBalla.
Kobe Bryant isn’t good enough - and never ha been good enough — to carry his team anywhere without a (potential or guaranteed) Hall of Fame big man on the roster. I fail to see how that reality doesn’t sink in with the Kobe lovers. Give the Lakers Shaq in the prime of his career, and they win chips. Give LA Pao (who I think is HoFamer if LA makes 2 more runs at the title), and you win chips. Take away a legit All NBA / HOF big man, and you’re talking barely squeaking into the playoffs.
There’s no doubt Kobe’s an all-time great player at his position, no doubt about it. No doubt he’s a HoFamer himself. But he’s absolutely not a Top 5 player in the NBA anymore and arguably not even the most valuable player of his own team anymore. Yet, he’s often mentioned among the top 3 in the NBA, and plenty of people want to throw him into the GOAT discussion.
He’s the very definition of overrated.
by brgulker on Oct 9, 2010 1:50 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
Agreed
I’m not a huge fan of the “Kobe isn’t elite because he needs a star big man” argument, mainly because A) its the absolute easiest way to hate on Kobe without actually producing evidence, even though it is true, and B) it kind of misses the point about basketball in that you need a team to win.
Kobe’s the second best SG ever, but he isn’t a top 5 player, and if he’s a top 10 player, he barely sneaks in, for this reason only. When Jordan, Russell, Magic, Bird, and Kareem were in their prime, you were making it to the playoffs. You might not win a ring (this is all semantics, yes, Russell won a ton of rings in his prime, but we’re talking if you had Tyronne Lue as your PG or Chris Mihm as your center), but you make it to the playoffs. You can’t really say the same for Kobe, who can make your team worse.
I’d also like to redact something: I said a few times during the summer Kobe was the best player in the league after Lebron’s debacle, which was really reactionary bullshit based on all that. Lebron’s still the best in the league, but Durant isn’t far behind.
by Biz Markie Moon on Oct 10, 2010 9:35 PM EDT up reply actions
You do know Kobe's only missed the playoffs once, right?
And he took Smush, Brian Cook, Kwame “hands of stone” Brown, and yes, even Chris Mihm to the playoffs twice.
They lost to the Suns who were one of the best teams in the league at that time. But c’mon…SMUSH PARKER?
Last year, I apologized to Brandon Roy, and un-apologized to Monta Ellis for prior inclusions. I will take this opportunity to un-apologize to Roy. What happened there? In four months, Portland went from contender of the future to the OKC Thunder’s first round fodder of the future.
OK I know I’m not exactly unbiased here, but this portion of the article is a load of garbage. You realize Portland had over 300 missed games of injury last year right? Yet they were still better than OKC. If the Blazers can get their injury woes under control they will be the better team, mark it down.
Oden+Roy+Aldridge+Rudy+Bayless=Dynasty. Believe
kobe overrated?
how can someone playing with back problems be overrated? along with his back, Bryant also played with a dislocated pinkie in his shooting hand and a broken index finger. He’s also played games with the flu, a strained right elbow and a twisted knee.
Sigh!!!
Dude [;ease come o n with these fake kobe injuries man…obviously common sense will tell you to quit chuckin shots up wit all those messed up body parts..kobe is tryin to define his legacy and his is doin a very horrible job at it. Kobetards just bail him out.
by Trevaris Coffey on Oct 13, 2010 9:13 PM EDT up reply actions
General retardation.
You might add a smidgen of credibility to your Kobe argument if the Lakers weren’t the champs two years running. It really just makes you look bitter and retarded to be crying that Kobe is overrated when he leads the championship team. Who then, of the great players is NOT overrated in your opinion? If WINNING in a team sport is not the baseline criterion for greatness or at least “rating” then I think you’ve pansied out on us. Better luck next time. You’re like the jealous girls who say Angelina Jolie is “not that pretty.”
:)
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