Kings are Royalty at The Palace: Kings 103, Pistons 97
by Packey on Feb 10, 2010 10:01 PM CST
in Recaps
88 comments
What Happened:
Roughly 258 people at the Palace saw the Kings come in and steal one from the Pistons, 103-97, ending the Pistons brief, but fun while it lasted, two game winning streak.
It was a relatively back and forth game. The biggest lead the Pistons had was eight in the first and the Pistons led by just two, one, and one after the first three quarters, respectively. Unfortunately, the Pistons came out on the wrong side of things after the most important, and final, quarter. That's what 7-23 shooting (30%) and just 18 points in the final 12-minutes will do for you, though.
The Kings took advantage of p-poor Pistons defense to shoot 51% from the field (47% from downtown) and score 100 points for their sixth consecutive game. The Pistons 97-point effort was the first time in eight games Sacramento has held their opponent under 100 points (and first time in their last six games under 110).
The Good:
Tayshaun Prince. Emphasis on the strong performance with the trade deadline looming and all -- 23 points on 11-15 shooting and five rebounds. If a trade is going to happen, the Pistons might want to use this game as the selling point and get'er done before Tuesday.
The Bad:
Ben Gordon. In his 430 NBA games, Ben Gordon has failed to make a shot just seven times. One was earlier this year when he missed his only attempt and had to leave the game early due to an injury. Before that it was 2005-2006. The other four were during his rookie season in 2004-2005. The seventh was tonight (0-8). He was awful, but I will say, he needs to be seeing more than 17+ minutes consistently.
Rodney Stuckey's 4th quarter. Before the fourth quarter, Stuckey had 17 points on 4-8 shooting (71 TS%!), seven assists, and two turnovers. He finished with 17 points on 4-13 shooting, nine assists, and five turnovers. For those not very good at math, that means he was 0-5 shooting with three turnovers in the fourth quarter. No thanks.
The Junkyard Dog Unsung Hero:
Jonas Jerebko. He's found himself here, or in 'the good,' more times than not. Constantly hustling and creating problems for opponents, Jonas finished with 10 points, seven rebounds, and one steal (including one really loud dunk).
The Takeaway:
Any momentum the Pistons could have had heading into the All-Star weekend was completely washed away with this loss to a team that was 4-22 on the road coming in. This loss was an annoying wake-up call for any dreamers who actually thought the Pistons had a chance at salvaging the season and making the playoffs. Unfortunately, the Pistons can't play the Nets twice every five days for the rest of the season and even when they were presented with these lowly Kings, they simply couldn't take care of business.
Let's just hope the team does some soul-searching over the All-Star Weekend and comes back Tuesday against the T-Wolves playing with some killer instincts, or any instincts at all that will make this team bearable to watch for the rest of the season.
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Junkyard Jerebko
"I didn’t even know Elvis was from Memphis, I thought he was from Tennessee." — Drew Gooden.
Tonight's attendance at the Izod Center, Nets vs. Bucks
Oh my god.
"I didn’t even know Elvis was from Memphis, I thought he was from Tennessee." — Drew Gooden.
I'm about to defend the Nets, unfortunately
New Jersey is busy getting absolutely hammered by a blizzard tonight. It just stopped snowing here and I’m about an hour and 15 minutes south of E. Rutherford. I joke and call the East Coasters pussies when it comes to how they deal with winter, but this storm was the Real Deal Holyfield.
That's cool O.M. I wasn't clowning them.
I was just shocked, that is a very low number.
"I didn’t even know Elvis was from Memphis, I thought he was from Tennessee." — Drew Gooden.
You SHOULD Clown Them
They’re weak. There’s no milk, eggs, or bread for 5 states because none of us are apparently going to be able to go anywhere for weeks. They hysterically overreact to just about everything weather wise. And with the way these people drive in the rain, I’m not surprised that only 1,000 of them made it out in the snow.
Again, all that said, this storm was legit. I’ve already dug out twice and we got about 8 inches since I was last out there.
Somewhere, David Stern is writing a strongly worded letter to Rod Thorn
I root for the Tigers, Pistons, Red Wings and yes, the Lions.
Me in 140 characters
Depressing
The Pistons screw up a bunch of late possessions, and maybe a couple of different bounces could have changed things, but I’m depressed. I’ve been one of those who thought that when everyone finally got healthy, we would be at least an average, .500-ish team. We would make up for lack of big man offense with a buch of guys who can score in bunches, and at least be better than the bad teams.
Well, we’ve had everyone healthy, more or less, for a few games, and we still can’t beat one of the worst road teams in the NBA at home. I really don’t know why Detroit is quite as bad as they are, but we’re in a pretty big hole. I’m going to keep watching / cheering / postin — heck, I was rooting in the pre-Bad Boys era. But it’s amazing how things have fallen apart so completely so fast.
Mixed Thoughts
On one hand, I really want this team to win and show they’re at least a .500 team.
But on the other hand, I really, really, really, want to see Cousins in a Pistons uniform. Because the reality of the situation is, this is the best opportunity we have had and probably will have for years to get an all star post player. And quite frankly if we don’t get one, this team is going no where for a long time, and will probably be stuck in mediocrity, akin to the Grant Hill era.
So I’ve got mixed thoughts on this loss. Just two less wins and we’re behind Washington, and in line for the 4th pick. And Minnesota is starting to heat up again now that Love is back. So we could quite possibly have the third overall pick or better if things continue. But on the other hand, we’re talking about one of the best historic franchises, that is known for its class and success. So once again, I really don’t know what I want right now.
by bearded thundar on Feb 11, 2010 8:01 AM CST reply actions
I can’t fathom where we’d be without Big Ben and Jonas Jerebko — two guys who Joe didn’t even envision as contributors when he signed/drafted them.
That, to me, is more discouraging than anything else that’s happened this year — injuries, losing streaks, etc.
Those two guys are Pistons. It’s been fun to watch them.
To clarify (and comment on my own comment, fail): it’s scary to me that Joe thought we’d be even close to alright on the boards and on D without those two guys.
brgulker
I have my doubts that, in the off season, Joe D thought John Kuester was going to come into this situation, this year, and do the following:
- use a 4-guard rotation at the PG and OG positions [from amongst Stuckey, Hamilton, Gordon, Bynum and Atkins]
- give virtually zero PT to Kwame Brown
- continue to play Rip Hamilton at the #3/SF position and Tay Prince at the #4/PF position with solid young players like Austin Daye/OG-SF and Jonas Jerebko/SF-PF on the roster, in addition to Charlie Villanueva/PF-SF and Jason Maxiell/PF
IMO, how John Kuester has decided to use the personnel on this year’s team is not the way it was originally envisioned by Joe D.
khandor
- give virtually zero PT to Kwame Brown
This is surprising to me as well. But as we all know, Kuester hasn’t been happy with Kwame’s defense; hence, he’s riding the pine.
But, as I said below, no one in the organization expected Ben Wallace to be the starting Center. Had he been the “locker room guy” that Joe anticipated, Kwame would be forced into playing minutes, I think.
IMO, how John Kuester has decided to use the personnel on this year’s team is not the way it was originally envisioned by Joe D.
I know :) But I’ve tried to demonstrate to you that Dumars likes Will Bynum a lot, and he wants Bynum to be a part of the franchise “long term” (Dumars’ words).
I think the real problem is that Joe that he’d be able to make a trade, and injuries and economics have kept that from happening. Joe’s Guard rotation was probably Stuckey + Rip + Bynum + prospect from a Rip trade, but that hasn’t worked out just yet.
brgulker
Despite the words that Joe D has said in public, thus far, I’m of the opinion that he would not have made the early Ben Gordon signing and the late Chucky Atkins signing, if he had originally thought Will Bynum was going to be a major part of the long term solution with the revitalization of the Pistons.
IMO, when assessing accurately what a GM really thinks … it’s actions that speak louder than words.
As I’ve said before, I think Joe D is going to re-sign Will Bynum rather than let him walk away for nothing in return and then he is going to trade Will Bynum + another asset, in return for a more helpful big.
IMO, Chucky Atkins was re-signed as a capable [minimal PT] back-up to Rodney Stuckey/PG, so that this eventual trade could occur.
khandor
Well, if we can’t use what Joe says publicly to assess what he’s thinking about the future of the franchise, then I’m not sure what we can use. I know that GMs are like politicians in that they have to say certain things at certain times.
But I have to believe that Joe envisioned trading Rip by now, and I have to believe that Chucky is little more than insurance — which I think is supported by the fact that he has only played because players in front of him were injured.
Stuckey + Gordon + Bynum + Potential asset from Rip trade + Atkins.
I think that’s probably what Joe was thinking this year would look like.
and ...
When that trade happens Joe D envisions that Ben Gordon will be used as the primary back-up for both Rip Hamilton/OG and Rodney Stuckey/PG.
Then … as Austin Daye continues to mature, he will become the long term replacement for Rip/OG … and, as Jonas Jerebko continues to mature, he will become the long term replacement for Tayshaun/SF.
khandor
Do you have any evidence, at all, that indicates that Joe Dumars believes Ben Gordon can be used as a point guard? It seems like projection to me.
Do you think Joe D. signed Gordon to the contract that he did this past summer because he envisioned using him this season, exclusively, as Rip Hamilton’s back-up?
[at the same time as he also drafted Daye, Summers and Jerebko and then signed Deron Washington, as well; while retaining Tayshaun Prince, and thereby, creating a logjam at the SF position, if he had any thoughts of shifting Rip there for significant minutes this season]
IMO, Joe D.‘s actions say that he believed in Ben Gordon’s ability to be used effectively as a back-up PG for this year’s Pistons team.
khandor
I think Joe D envisioned Rip being traded by now.
My Music: Now on last.fm!!
My Blog: Strike Three Mechanics
by madpoopz on Feb 12, 2010 12:22 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
also
Just out of curiosity …
What would make you think that Joe D did not originally envision Jonas Jerebko as being a contributor to the Pistons?
khandor
What would make you think that Joe D did not originally envision Jonas Jerebko as being a contributor to the Pistons?
I don’t mean to dodge here, but I don’t have time to search for the articles. I read several Dumars interviews over the summer, which described how Pistons coaching and management were surprised by Jerebko’s NBA readiness. He was drafted as a project, a guy with potential who may or may not pan out over 2-3 years. No one in the organization anticipated that he would be an impact player immediately, which he obviously is and would be for just about any NBA team.
Frankly, Joe got lucky. Had Jonas not been ready, what would we have done in Tay’s absence? Scary, scary thought.
Same for Ben Wallace. Joe is on record saying that he expected Ben Wallace to be “a locker room guy.”
if Tay had gotten hurt and there was no Jonas, then, IMO ...
1. The Pistons would have used Austin Daye at the SF position … and he would have, in all likelihood, opened even more eyes than he has to this point in his career, re: his actual capacity to become a very, very, good NBA player at either of the 2 wing spots.
2. re: Jonas Jerebko’s actual ability as a NBA prospect
Again, I would simply suggest that what Joe Dumars actually said in public about the potential of Jonas Jerebko in the summer was more along the lines of trying to ensure that he [JJ] would be able to fly under the radar early in his career, as a low-key member of the Pistons … while getting his feet wet, as a back-up, assuming that there was no injury to Prince … in a similar way to how Tay Prince was actually eased into the line-up during his first 2 seasons in Detroit.
3. I agree that Joe D. thought that Kwame Brown was going to be used more [and, more importantly, should actually be used more] than Ben Wallace.
IMO, he can’t be very happy right now that this situation is not playing out that way for the Pistons this season.
khandor
So, in other words, you can read Joe’s mind. Because there is no reason to think that Dumars envisioned Jerebko being so good. He has been quoted as having low expectations, which would make sense given Jerebko’s draft status. As for actions speaking louder than words, if Dumars really believed Jonas was going to be so good, why did he draft Summers over him?
Reading minds is not part of what I happen to do … but, reading situations in the world of sports – with a fairly high degree of accuracy – certainly is.
IMO, Joe D. originally liked each of the players he drafted this past summer, not just 1 or 2 of them.
The player he liked best … with huge upside down-the-road … is Daye.
The player he liked 2nd best … with less upside down-the-road, but increased stability of expectation … is Summers.
The player he liked 3rd best … with less upside down-the-road than Daye but more upside down-the-road than Summers … is Jerebko.
khandor
I’m glad you used Jerebko’s full name, to avoid any confusion as to which Jonas or which Jerebko you would be referring. And thank you for clarifying to which team Jerebko’s contributions would be made.
In all seriousness, I would hope that Dumars would not expect much from Jerebko, since, historically, second round rookies such as Jerebko have not made significant contributions to their respective teams.
Yes
I still have to think that Joe D. figured he would make a trade, but the multitude of injuries and general suckiness of the team has complicated that. But yeah, If Ben and JJ had been what at least most of thought they would be, we might well be in Nets territory.
Tired...
… of seeing Rip Hamilton turn the ball over, and miss easy shot after easy shot.
He’s the SHOOTING GUARD. Job #1= MAKE SHOTS.
He had, what, 3 good chances to nail open shots? Did even get close. And the TURNOVERS!
I know Stuckey had a brutal 4th, but Rip is the guy who’s supposed to be cashing in on some of those dimes.
I’m so over Rip at this point.
by Big Z in Orlando on Feb 11, 2010 2:34 PM CST reply actions
Rip had a weak game, but so did Gordon
And for that matter, so did most Pistons not named Tayshaun, Wallace, or Jerebko.
Gordon played how many minutes?
Gordon isn’t getting enough minutes to get even get a rhythm. So really he can’t have a “weak” game.
My Music: Now on last.fm!!
My Blog: Strike Three Mechanics
Bullshit
Gordon’s being paid to be instant offense, not to have time to get into rhythm. No one else would have given him $8 mil a year. The only teams with cap room didn’t want him, so it was either MLE or come to Detroit off the bench.
He picked off the bench, so that’s what he’s going to have to do. I’m getting tired of excuses for him, he’s been brutal with the exception of a few games after about the second week.
by bearded thundar on Feb 11, 2010 5:46 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
gordon has come off the bench is entire career
and he has been instant offense. he’s never needed to find a rhythm. He comes in, he scores. This is a weird anomaly, and suggesting he needs more minutes is just as anomalous— because it’s never been a problem.
he has also averaged more than 15 minutes per game in his career...
bench player or not.
Instant offense means he finds his rhythm quickly. Basically he’s getting pulled from the court as soon as he finds that rhythm and has no chance to develop it. Playing in 5 minute spurts does not lend itself well to anybody, even if your capable of providing “instant offense.”
My Music: Now on last.fm!!
My Blog: Strike Three Mechanics
The chief reason Ben Gordon won’t get enough PT this season is because of the min/game that John Kuester gives to Will Bynum.
As I said in August …
For this group of Pistons to operate at their highest degree of efficiency possible … what they will need is the following PG and OG rotation:
Stuckey/PG + Hamilton/OG
Stuckey/PG + Gordon/OG
Gordon/PG + Hamilton/OG
repeat, infinitum
not one of these alternatives:
Stuckey/PG + Hamilton/OG
Bynum/PG + Gordon/OG
repeat, infinitum
and/or
Stuckey/PG + Gordon/OG
Bynum/PG + Hamilton/OG
repeat, infinitum
and/or
Bynum/PG + Stuckey/OG
Gordon/PG + Hamilton/OG
repeat, infinitum
and/or
any pair of
Stuckey/Bynum/Gordon/PG + Hamilton/OG
Bynum/Gordon/PG + Stuckey/OG
Bynum/Stuckey + Gordon/OG
interchanged at-will [pun intended!]
When you’ve got 2 smallish guards like Ben Gordon and Will Bynum, both of whom have solid NBA talent, at the position[s] that they play, and 2 bigger guards like Rodney Stuckey and Rip Hamilton, both of whom have terrific NBA talent at the position[s] that they play, what a high end coach needs/knows to do is … choose only one of the smaller guards and give him copius amounts of PT, in conjunction with both of the two bigger guards.
This does not mean that the “left out” smaller guard is a bad player; only that, in this situation, he is the odd man out, if the team is going to be able to function at a peak level of efficiency.
In Detroit’s specific situation this season:
If either one of the bigger guards under-performs, then, what the coach should do is pull him from the rotation … temporarily … in favour of Austin Daye, another bigger [young] guard off the bench, not the smallish guard who was the odd-man out originally.
If the smaller guard who is in the rotation initially under-performs, then, what the coach should do is pull him from the rotation … temporarily … in favour of the other smallish guard who was the odd-man out originally.
This would then create a positive situation for all players concerned … where internal competition for PT is heightened and each player has a designated role within the dynamic of the team that is clearly understood by everyone.
khandor
IMO
As long as Detroit continues to play at a .350 clip and the PG-OG rotation remains essentially unchanged then THAT is the only dead horse [Piston?] around here that needs to stop being ridden.
.353 for pete’s sake!
You will never ever have more tangible proof that a specific rotation is not working than this ultra simple fact.
khandor
.353 for pete’s sake!
You will never ever have more tangible proof that a specificrotationroster is not working than this ultra simple fact.
Replace that one word, and I think you’re exactly right.
check the Pistons W-L record this season and ...
Compare how they’ve done in the games when they’ve used primarily a 4-guard rotation at the PG and OG positions vs when they’ve used primarily a 3-guard rotation.
I think you’ll find a difference.
khandor
You are implying that the poor record is an indictment of giving Wiliam Bynum minutes. There are three significant problems with your statement.
Firstly, and more generally, there are many factors leading to the Pistons’ win percentage hoving around 35.3, such as a lack of low-post scoring, that are unrelated to the issue of a three-guard rotation versus a four-guard rotation.
Secondarily, in the repeatedly aforementioned three-guard rotation, either Richard [Rip] Hamilton or Benjamin [Ben] Gordon would be playing out of their standard OG position and playing PG instead. Unfortunately, neither Hamilton nor Gordon are very good at fulfilling the required duties of the PG [dribbling, directing the offense, distributing the ball].
Thirdly, it is of dubious logic to correlate the Detroit Pistons’ overall winning percentage to the use of a rotation featuring the four guards Rodney Stuckey, Richard Hamilton, Benjamin Gordon, and William Bynum when all but Stuckey have missed significant portions of the season.
by Birdman84 on Feb 12, 2010 10:04 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
khandor
Over the last two games, Stuckey has avereaged 40 minutes. Take 6 of them from Stuckey, take 4 more from Rip, and you’ve got 27 minutes for Ben Gordon.
Easy solution.
brgulker
I’ve tried my best to explain to you that the way you are thinking when you suggest taking 6 min from Stuckey and 4 min from Rip and then adding them onto Ben Gordon’s total minutes played is not the way that an elite level coach actually thinks … when during the last 2 games there has also been a 4th guard in the mix, getting a hefty share of PT, as well, i.e. Will Bynum.
The way a non-elite level coach would look at the situation is, however, exactly as what you’ve described.
There’s a totally different rhythm to a team … and to individual players themselves … when it gets the opportunity to play with only 3 very good players used at the 2 guard positions vs. when there are 4 or more very good players used at those 2 spots, in terms of clear role definition, and internal competition, and [the dreaded] team cohesion, etc..
khandor
I don't know how much of an impact it is
But Hamilton’s shooting percentage is down by 6 points since last year. I do think he’s taking too many shots to help the team at the moment. But, he is helping with the improved assists.
In semi-fairness to Rip and Gordon
They’ve been hurt for big chunks of the year, and when they played, because of injuries to other players, they’ve played with depleted lineups and therefore arguably had to try to do too much.
That’s why the Kings game was so depressing. Everyone played, and we still lost, at home, to a crappy road team.
Gordon - a view from Chicago
What you see of Gordon is what you get. The good – 5 seconds to go in a big game, he gets hot when 15 points down, games against Milwaukee or other teams with short guards and Ben will shine. However as a regular, the first quarter of games, the day-in-day out games he can kill you. Mike Payne and others are correct – he is best as instance offense but only at big moments or at the end of big games. He is mostly a non-factor but to his credit will hit big shots at the end of games, but mostly if it is a big game. He is not worth the money you paid him. I do not think there was another team willing to pay Gordon except Detroit.
by chgobr on Feb 11, 2010 8:09 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
Ben Gordon was used incorrectly for his entire career in Chicago … in a similar but also slightly different way to how Tyrus Thomas has been used there.
You will not see the real Ben Gordon until such time that he plays for a coach that knows how to use him properly in the NBA game.
[… and, if this never happens, then the ultimate fate that Ben Gordon will suffer is to have a “stunted” pro career, just as many other players who have been used incorrectly have also had to endure, as well, when fortune failed to smile upon them and they never had a chance to play with one of the relatively few top notch coaches who work in the NBA on a regular basis.]
Ben Gordon is not a dominant multi-dimensional player with the skill-set to overcome being asked to play for a relatively poor basketball coach. He’s a very good basketball player, who excels at 1 or 2 aspects of the game, and needs to be used properly, if he’s going to be able to perform at his maximum level of efficiency and efficacy … just like scores of other players in the league each season.
khandor
Guarantee you Cleveland would've liked Ben Gordon.
Unsure of what they could pay because of Jebron Lames, but they definitely would like him in a Cavs jersey.
"I didn’t even know Elvis was from Memphis, I thought he was from Tennessee." — Drew Gooden.
Well, yeah, anyone would love Ben Gordon for $5 million, which is all Cleveland had to offer.
The question is, does anyone want him for ~$12 million?
by brgulker on Feb 12, 2010 10:04 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I know one guy!
he’s the poor schlub who wrote articles with these titles: “Trade surplus: In the end, Joe D pulls off a sweet deal,” and “Pistons come out winners in Summer of LeBron.”
With choice bits of prose such as:
That’s the real takeaway from Joe Dumars’ earth-shaking opening salvo on free agency: These aren’t your father’s Pistons anymore. The days of half-court, grind-it-out offense have dissolved into a vapor cloud. The game has changed. The Pistons struggled too many nights for points over the past few seasons in an NBA that today makes it nearly impossible to win using the physical defense blueprint the 2004 team employed. Now they can put five players on the floor not only capable of putting up 20 points a night – they had that before, at times – but do it with great variety.
KLFTW.
personally
1. I thought adding Ben Gordon, at those specific dollar amounts was going to back-fire on Joe D. … unless he could also trade Will Bynum.
2. Primarily because … unless Ben Gordon is actually used as a back-up PG and a back-up OG, for heavy minutes … signing BG at that amount is a giant waste of money.
khandor
just testing my new comment signature.
Would you like me to give you Hubie Brown's home telephone number so that you can actually call him yourself to confirm that he is someone who knows me?
by Mike Payne on Feb 12, 2010 12:08 PM CST up reply actions 4 recs
Khandor!
Hahaha…I started to read the comment about all the different guard lineups and said ‘that sounds like khandor’…welcome back you polite bastard!
by CodyB on Feb 12, 2010 10:07 AM CST via mobile reply actions
I’ve found myself doing that, as well. The combination of a distinct writing style and the well-worn arguments makes for an easy tip-off.
by Birdman84 on Feb 12, 2010 10:18 AM CST up reply actions 3 recs
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