Checkmate: Pistons 101, Kings 89
by Matt W on Feb 24, 2010 4:56 AM CST
in Recaps
60 comments
There was a lot of rumbling after the trade deadline when Joe Dumars failed to move either of his aging (and increasingly redundant) veterans, Tayshaun Prince and Rip Hamilton. After all, younger and potentially better options were waiting in the wings, so why not dump the old vets to the first contender with an expiring contract and draft picks?
Perhaps it's dumb luck, or perhaps it really was part of some master plan, but the silver lining to Dumars' decision to sit on his hands is that both Hamilton and Prince have done their best to put their dismal first halves of the season behind them while simultaneously boosting their trade value for this summer.
The Pistons were hotter than they've been all season on Tuesday against the Kings, stretching their lead to as many as 30 points before ultimately winning 101-89 -- and Hamilton and Prince were huge reasons why.
Hamilton finished the game with a game-high 30 points on 60% shooting (12-20 FG ) in 33 minutes -- in his last four, he's averaged 30.5 on 54% shooting. Prince, meanwhile, set the tone early by scoring Detroit's first six points, finishing with 22 on 64% shooting (11-17 FG) to go with four assists, four rebounds and a block.
I'm not exactly thrilled with Prince's workload -- he played 36 minutes on Tuesday after playing 38, 42 and 44 in his previous three -- but it's possible he's being given a chance to prove that the back injury that plagued him in the playoffs last year and early this season is not the death sentence for his career that many (myself included) feared.
If he can keep it up for a few more weeks and finish the season without any more lengthy stints on the trainer's table, he'll be a pretty decent chip for Dumars to use this summer in a trade, especially considering he'll be entering the final year of his contract.
As for the rest of Tuesday's game, Ben Gordon was efficient but foul-prone: he finished with 11 points (5-7 FG) and six fouls in 22 minutes. In the battle of brawny point guards, Rodney Stuckey finished with 13 points, eight boards and seven assists while future Rookie of the Year Tyreke Evans had 28 points (including 12 in the fourth) and a career-high 13 assists.
The Pistons reached a new high for the season by shooting 58% on the night; the Kings, meanwhile, shot 44%. Carl Landry finished with 18 points, joining Evans as the only guys wearing purple to crack double digits, but he scored over half of his points in the fourth quarter when the game was all but officially decided.
You'd certainly like to see the Pistons maintain their intensity for four consecutive quarters for once -- the Kings outscored Detroit 31-18 in the final frame -- but Tuesday was one of the rare games this season where "too little, too late" applied to the other team.
As I mentioned the other night, if the Pistons win just one of their next three games (@LAC, @DEN, @GSW), they'll guarantee their first winning month since Dec. 2008. If the vets keep it up, it just might happen.
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I think it was the injuries that set us back all season............
when our perimeter players (Bynum, Gordon, Stuckey, Prince and Rip) are all at full strength, we could be pretty good. Last night it wasn’t Bynum’s night, but Prince and Rip stepped up. Stuckey and Gordon performed steadily and shot a good %, which is good. I like the way our defense played, only 58 points allowed, while we score 83.
by JC no1 pistons fan on Feb 24, 2010 6:21 AM CST reply actions
how's jj doing?
hope hes not gonna miss any time
Stepped on another player's foot and tweaked and ankle.
He was helped off the court by Stuckey and Max and taken to the locker room. He later returned to the bench but did not play.
Should note that Evans didn’t really score much when Stuckey was on him. It wasn’t until he was guarded by Rip, Gordon and Bynum (as well as some transition hoops where he’s completely unstoppable) that he racked up his points.
by Quick Darshan on Feb 24, 2010 7:56 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
Trade Rip? Or trade Gordon?
I don’t want to overvalue Rip based on a ridiculous (unsustainable) hot streak, but does anyone else think that this might be a question Jod is considering?
I think a lot of people are assuming the former. Just curious.
by brgulker on Feb 24, 2010 8:03 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
You're assuming he can get rid of at least one.
Joe wants value in return, and I’m not sure a team is going to give him value for either of those two players. I’m not saying Joe should be expecting value, but I know he wants talent in return, not expiring contracts.
I root for the Tigers, Pistons, Red Wings and yes, the Lions.
Me in 140 characters
by ReichardZ on Feb 24, 2010 9:08 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
We'd get decent value for Gordon, at least more decent than for Rip.
Rip’s seen as a “declining vet” (which is completely untrue), while Ben’s still in his prime (I guess?). I’ve been on the “trade Gordon” bandwagon since the minute Gulk first suggested it. I just love Rip’s game, I love how it fits with our other guards, I feel like it’s going to age extremely well, and he’s the one guy left of the “old guard” I’d like to see finish it here (well, obviously Big Ben too). Especially if we’re planning on resigning Bynum, I just don’t see the need for Gordon— he makes our backcourt size too much of a liability, is making too much $$ for a backup, and all the while barely mirror’s Rip’s offensive production while not being nearly the facilitator or defender that Rip is. I say we shop Ben around this summer— there’s got to be a contender that would be willing to take on his deal for an A+ scorer off their bench.
by The Joel on Feb 24, 2010 9:41 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I like Rip a lot too...
But from a business prospective we might have to sell him high.
by Roll The Dyess on Feb 24, 2010 9:47 AM CST up reply actions
Joel, you said exactly what I said before I said it
Sorry about that. I’m 100% with you.
by Bill Higgins on Feb 24, 2010 10:47 AM CST up reply actions
I would *so* prefer to trade Gordon
Rip is a much bigger player and a much, much better defender, and his game plays more easily into a team dynamic. Gordon can’t guard anybody in the NBA, and on offense he basically remains his traditional black-hole-shoot-crazy-shots-and-once-in-a-while-they-go-in self. He’s an excellent shooter when he’s open, but his shot selection is often very poor, and he’s not much of a distributor. That’s just his game. He’ll always be better off the bench because of his limitations.
Rip should retire a Piston. His game will age well, and he loves this place and has done great things.
by Bill Higgins on Feb 24, 2010 10:45 AM CST up reply actions
I just am afraid no one will ever want Gordon
His contract is significantly less tradeable than Rip’s, given the extra years and the fact that he is a worse player.
by Bill Higgins on Feb 24, 2010 10:46 AM CST up reply actions
Not in the eyes of most GM
Gordon is seen as a star in this league where as Rip is just another scorer. Ironically, the opposite holds true. Gordon will actually be far more tradeable because of his “potential to go wild” on the offensive end, like he did against Boston, and because of his youth. He might be overpaid, but he’ll only be ~30 when his contract expires, so I don’t think anyone would have any problems taking on his contract come next year’s trade deadline when only 3.5 years remain.
The only reason why Rip seems so untradeable is because of his age and (previous?) lack of 3 point shot. Had he been only 26 (like Gordon), teams would be lining up for him with the way he’s played as of late.
by bearded thundar on Feb 24, 2010 10:52 AM CST up reply actions
Gotta disagree about the 3's
Rip formerly participated in the three point shootout in 08. I don’t think anyone denies that he can shoot the 3 or thinks that he’s just coming into his own as a 3 point threat. There isn’t a GM or player that doesn’t know the mid-range elbow jumpers off a screen are Rip’s bread and butter.
I definitely agree
As I have mentioned before, just because a player is available at the time you have money to spend, doesn’t mean he has to be in your long term plans. Like Gortat (maybe).
What do the advanced stats say about their value in therms of talent?
I’m assuming their career numbers are pretty close. Guessing Rip’s might be a bit higher. If so, I’d just trade the player that got the most combined value between talent and expiring contracts. If it came down to a coin flip – I’d keep Rip.
As to who GM’s want more, I would think that a contender would pretty much be the only buyer for either. If your team needs a complimentary shooter to open up the lane for your star wing – Advantage Rip since his game is more complementary and he has fewer years on his contract. If you want another player who can “take over” down the stretch BG is your fools gold.
Aaannnnd……this has been said by like 3 people already. Awesome.
I don’t really follow PER that closely … the economist that we all love, his metric rates them very similarly.
IME, it comes down to Rip’s better facilitative abilities and better defense. I value that more highly for this team than I do BG’s superior ability to stretch the floor.
AFAIK, none of the advanced stats track those things very well, other than perhaps the metric over at Courtside Analyst. But I have never run those numbers, because it takes a lot of time to do so.
It may be petty or picky, but
I wish Q hadn’t reinserted the starters in the fourth (Ben, Rip, and Tay). Yes, the 30- point lead was cut in half more than half-way through the fourth, but really, what are the chances the Kings were going to outscore Detroit by 26 points in the fourth quarter alone? In their first three quarters, they scored 26, 16, and 16. You had to figure if Detroit could score maybe 8 points in the whole quarter, the Kings couldn’t catch them. Let the young guys play, especially on the first night of a back-to-back when we’re not exactly jockeying for playoff position.
I think the mix of bench players Q had out there in the fourth wasn’t good. When Ben and JJ aren’t in, extended minutes with Maxy and CV as your “bigs” isn’t ideal. WTF did Kwame do to be chained to the bench in a game like this?
But that’s the kind of complaint Detroit fans are used to making in good years — our starters did great, wish the bench had been more solid. Can’t complain too much about a double-digit win on the road that wasn’t much in doubt for most of the second half.
by Toledo Joe on Feb 24, 2010 9:07 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
I agree, TJ (even though I didn’t actually see it). Tay is playing too much, and so is Rip — even though they’ve been great.
My hunch is that Joe’s talk about “evaluating the team now that we’re healthy” isn’t just spin. I think that’s what he’s actually trying to do, and I suspect heavy minutes for the vets stems from that. My hope is that this evaluation will be done by the last 15 or so games and abandoned in favor of 15+ minutes per night for guys like Daye.
Guy* like Daye
Outside Daye who needs the PT for our future? Jerebko and Bynum(most of the time) already get their minutes. I have no problem with watching the starters play.
by Roll The Dyess on Feb 24, 2010 9:53 AM CST up reply actions
Darko?
Wait a minute…
Check out Detroit4Lyfe
by handsomerob1 on Feb 24, 2010 10:05 AM CST up reply actions
Maybe
But isn’t “evaluating the team” mean more in regards to figuring out the relatively unknown quantities like the rookies and new guys?
Why Play Prince 30+ minutes when they need to figure out what they can get from Daye?
Hamilton and Prince are what they are. No additional analysis needed (unless Joe D really thought that either injury this year was long-term career threatening). They need to know if they can count on Daye, Gordon, and CV31 over the long-term (and Summers if they ever bother to suit him up again).
by Big Z in Orlando on Feb 24, 2010 10:16 AM CST up reply actions
You might think that's comic hyperbole
But look how ridiculously small we were in the fourth when the “subs” were in. If we’re really not going to play Kwame at all, and Wilcox gets only random, occasional minutes, when Ben is out, who are we playing at 4 and 5? Maxy and CV? Both way undersized.
Now I know these were garbage time minutes, or should have been, but I think we need a big body out there at those times. Even if we’ve completely given up on Wilcox and Kwame - and have we? - it would be nice to rest the starters.
This shit is fundamental
think we need a big body out there at those times. Even if we’ve completely given up on Wilcox and Kwame
The dogs been barking for this one for a long time and I’m just hoping Dumars makes some moves for some size in the frontcourt… somebody who gives a damn.
"I didn’t even know Elvis was from Memphis, I thought he was from Tennessee." — Drew Gooden.
Seconded on crossing shit out
I too have long pondered this technique. It would be a great addition to my sarcasm arsenal.
I'm just like a sports reporter, but without the insight or money.
Hey nincompoops geniuses,
There’s a button in the commenting box toolbar that looks like this S. Highlight the text you want to strikethrough and hit that S button.
Right but
I’m confused at how Skylar seems to have inserted a strikeout in one of MY posts, as opposed to doing it in one of his. Which I thought was totally obvious I should have made clearer in my earlier post.
I'm not sure TJ Hooker
‘Twas not my intention, I ain’t in the business of crossing family out.
"I didn’t even know Elvis was from Memphis, I thought he was from Tennessee." — Drew Gooden.
"mystery enchillada"
sounds like some hazardous fare
"I didn’t even know Elvis was from Memphis, I thought he was from Tennessee." — Drew Gooden.
I don't think that's possible
There’s no way for a commenter to edit another commenter’s post. (Hell, there’s no way for a commenter to edit his own post.) What made you think he did? Just the fact that you don’t remember doing it?
You put a hyphen before “and” and after the “?” If you look at the “Show Formatting Guide” it says that’s how you get the strike through affect.
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Year 2
We’re on year 2 of the small-ball experiment. How many more years of this shit do we need to put up with before Joe D realizes you gotta have more than good guards on your team?
by Big Z in Orlando on Feb 25, 2010 11:45 AM CST up reply actions
Pistons playing well....
….I hope JJ is ok and doesnt miss to much time….. however if he is hurt dont rush back….Also this is why Joe D didnt trade for expiring contracts he knows in the offseason after Rip and Tay have great 2nd halfs he can get more when he trades one.
by BennieBladesFan on Feb 24, 2010 9:20 AM CST reply actions
In case anyone was wondering about JJ
According to freep.com this morning.
Jonas Jerebko twisted his ankle in the third quarter and left the court momentarily, but returned to the bench and could have returned to the game. He appeared fine afterward.
I'm disappointed
in the lack of reference to the Step Brothers quote-a-thon in last night’s game thread.
Check out Detroit4Lyfe
I enjoyed the epicicity that was Step Brothers quote-a-thon
it made me laugh before I passed out in bed
"I didn’t even know Elvis was from Memphis, I thought he was from Tennessee." — Drew Gooden.
It seems sad
That after a good win the main question is who to ship out. But when you are clearly trying to rebuild the team…
Rip seems like the logical guy to trade. He’s the oldest of our players under a long term deal and we have Gordon signed for the long term at a starter’s salary as well. Trading Rip to a contender that wants his experience and proven playoff record or a young team that needs a veteran leader could get us a decent haul in either young players or draft picks. But he’s the guy I least want traded.
Emotional attachment aside, Rip remains our best and most consistent scoring threat. He’s an underrated defender who chases his cover relentlessly and also wears his defender out by making him run in circles on the other end of the court. He’s a skilled and willing passer. In the playoffs he has shown that he isn’t afraid of the pressure and has delivered time and again for the team. His game is predicated on running off of screens to hit mid-range jumpers, which should continue to be effective as he gets older ala Reggie Miller.
If we have to get rid of one of our $12 million SGs then Gordon is the one to trade. He has been a backup his whole career and hasn’t shown that he can handle the responsibilities of a starter. His defense is mediocre at best. He doesn’t look to pass and tends to dominate the ball. Though he is a great shooter Gordon’s tendency to force shots makes him a boom-or-bust player on a nightly basis. I like him as a guy who can produce instant scoring off the bench, but right now if he is stinking it up we can pull him for Rip (the starter). Of course the big problem will be finding someone who is willing to take on his contract. I worry that we’ll basically have to keep him and go into every trade deadline hoping for an injury to a contender. But that’s what you get for signing a role player to a star’s contract.
I'm just like a sports reporter, but without the insight or money.
I'm not convinced
Jod really feels it necessary to trade either Rip or Gordon. I’m not saying it is right or wrong, but I’m just not convinced that’s what Jod is thinking. Tay, on the other, will almost definately be gone either this summer or before the next trade deadline.
I’ve been really depressed this year looking at our roster and salary structure. But, what if Tay keeps playing the way he’s been playing the last several games? As an expiring contract, we could really get some value out of him.
Couple that with a little common sense luck in the draft, and we might be OK. If Jerebko and Daye continue to improve, decent value is returned for Tay, Jod drafts effectively, and we find a deal with the MLE, we could be on a relatively short road back to respectability.
Of course, if my aunt had a package she’d be my uncle. Just saying.
I agree with you waluie, and that scares the heck out of me … he keeps talking about needing to “evaluate,” as I mentioned above. What else could he be evaluating? It’s gotta be the backcourt… and whether they all co-exist and/or who fits better with Stuck.
people keep saying tay and rip/bg will be gone this summer or before the deadline next year
but havent we been saying that all year now. who knows what the eff dumars will do
I don't think
anyone will be traded. The teams looking to add talent are clearing cap space to get at the free agents. We probably won’t be able to get anything but expirings.
Check out Detroit4Lyfe
by handsomerob1 on Feb 24, 2010 9:32 PM CST up reply actions
We might be able to trade after free agency settles down and some of these teams that didn’t land the guy they wanted need a fallback plan.
I'm just like a sports reporter, but without the insight or money.
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