Kuester Explains Kwame's Benching; Wallace Explains Kwame's Career
by Matt W on Feb 9, 2010 4:05 AM CST
in News
189 comments
I almost made this a FanShot instead of an actual post so it didn't get blown out of proportion, but the more I think about it, the more worthy of discussion I think this is. Kwame Brown, penciled in as a starter before the start of the season, has essentially fallen out of the rotation. What's the secret to his getting more PT? Playing better defense, says John Kuester. From the Detroit News:
"Our biggest concern and I have discussed it with him is defense," Kuester said. "We have to make sure he continually plays the consistent defense that I want to in the scheme. That is pick-and-roll, high pick-and-roll. Just making sure he knows."
If Brown didn't know, he knows now. That is why he laughed when Kuester's words were relayed to him.
"Listen, man, I don't want something to be flared up on what I say," Brown said. "I will do what the coach says in order to get better, although that is a first because there is one thing I do bring to the table and that is defense. That's the first time I heard that. It's the first time a coach said I don't play defense. But like I said, I will learn to play the defense he wants me to play."
Given the recent suggestions that the Pistons are already starting to tune Kuester out, the fact Brown laughed off Kuester's feedback (even while promising to take it seriously) was a little disconcerting -- although, to be honest, not more so than the fact Brown was so nonchalant about his lack of PT (during a contract year, no less) in the first place. Ben Wallace seemed to call Brown out on that last point:
Some of his teammates said they don't understand why Brown sits. But Wallace said Brown needs more hunger.
"Without a doubt he can contribute," Wallace said. "But he got to want it. He's got to be hungry, man. For me to say you got to do this and do, that's pointless. You got to want it. Look, man, when you go out there, you got to do what you got to do. If you go out there and are making the same mistakes the starters are making, then you don't need to be out there."
I like Brown -- he's affable in the locker room, useful on occasion on the court -- but I'll be damned if Wallace didn't just sum up his entire career.
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The fact Brown laughed off Kuester’s feedback (even while promising to take it seriously) was a little disconcerting — although, to be honest, not more so than the fact Brown was so nonchalant about his lack of PT (during a contract year, no less) in the first place.
Yeah, this is a concern. First Flip, then MCIAFI (understandably), and now Kuester — have all of those coaches really been that bad? I just can’t see how …
Kwame’s an enigma. He had a solid year this year, and frankly, I don’t understand why he’s not getting more minutes — he can’t be a worse option at backup C than Wilcox or CV.
I agree...
….He has not played bad at all and im stunned by his lack of minutes…..Its not like we signed him to be a star we signed him to be a solid spot starter and backup…..And I believe that he was doing well in that role.
by BennieBladesFan on Feb 9, 2010 12:07 PM CST up reply actions
Problem with playing
Kwamster is that with Ben or Max on the floor him your basically playing 3 on 5 basketball.
An just from an attitude stand point, Kwame just isn’t “into it” IMO. Sure Wilcox might not be that good, but he’s always hollering and cheering on the guys from the bench. Kwmae just seems to go through the motions.
The most interesting part...
is the last paragraph of the article, if you ask me:
Teams are cheating on guards defensively. The Pistons need more low-post scoring to keep them honest and Wallace has tried. But it isn’t enough.
“To me that is hindsight. That’s almost like an excuse,” Brown said. “I don’t like when people do that, say we need more scoring in the block. All year we have been a guard-oriented team. We have been OK with that from day one. No one throws the ball into the post so let’s not start talking about it now. You can’t say that now that small ball isn’t working. That’s an excuse.”
Kind of throws that back on Joe D, doesn’t he?
The players obviously recognize that this team was built around the guards. The attitude seems to be, “Why focus on post scoring (a weakness) now that the guard play hasn’t been as good as advertised?”
Strangely, I agree. With the players this team has, it will never be a good post-scoring team. So why emphasize, or work on something that is never going to work anyway? The coaching staff needs to emphasize offensive plans and plays that will make the best use of the Piston’s strengths: primarily guard scoring.
Of course, this all changes with a trade (oh please oh please oh please) to bring in some much-needed post play on offense.
by Big Z in Orlando on Feb 9, 2010 8:15 AM CST reply actions
I understand him acting nonchalant and trying not to give the media anything to play up. I think its weird that Kuester explains this to the media, and then Kwame acts like he has never heard it before. I just generally think its bad form when a coach talks to the media about this kind of thing— its like they’re throwing their player to the hounds or something. And then Kwame is surprised about it? I don’t like that too much.
yeah, and if i’d heard a single analyst or pundit, whatever, talk about how kwame’s d had slipped and he was making a lot of mistakes i’d understand. but i haven’t heard anyone say that. i’ve only heard the assumption that his bad hands on offense were what drove him out of the rotation. whole thing sounds fishy to me.
Kuester was almost certainly answering a question, and I won’t fault him for answering honestly. (Isn’t that what most fans want? For people to lose the cliches and just tell the truth?) Also, I have a hard time believing Kuester didn’t explain this to Brown ahead of time — my guess is that Brown is trying to save face instead of saying, “yeah, he’s been on me about that, but I haven’t gotten better yet …”
This team really needs a fresh start
Keep this crap under wraps for the remainder of the season, see if Joe works a trade and if not go into the offseason and pray that we draft someone long and smooth that really strokes it?
by Laughton on Feb 9, 2010 8:44 AM CST reply actions 2 recs
I think it's too late..
..to keep things under wraps. With all the negative scenes made in the public eye (Stuckey’s ultimatum, Rip’s comments, Tayshaun’s outburst), I feel like this team thinks they can say and do whatever they want. And the sad part is, I think Q is getting baited into all this turmoil and is just making things worse. I hope things get straighten out but I agree, I don’t think that’s going to happen until we unload some of the players I’ve mentioned.
I don't give a shit about whether or not Rip and Tay listen to Q
It’s Ben Wallace that our youngsters are looking up to at this point and Ben Wallace is listening to Q.
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I think he’s saying the Rip and Tay won’t be around by the time the Pistons are good again, so he only cares if the future of the team is on the right track, not how gracefully the old guard accepts their slide …
correcto
and it’s alright Gulk…I could have been less obscure with my point.
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If the young Pistons players are looking up to Ben Wallace, rather than Rip Hamilton and Tayshaun Prince, then, they are making a serious mistake.
Ben Wallace is someone who willingly chose to leave the Pistons in search of further personal wealth.
That is not a choice which either Rip or Tay has made, at least, to this point.
Throughout his career Ben Wallace has been a good “foot soldier” but he has not been the straw that stirred the drink for the Pistons or the actual leader of their team [i.e. Billups and Hamilton filled this role during the great run of the last decade].
In his experience as a HOF player, Joe D. has to have learned along the way that the most important Pistons’ players are the ones that have actually been the most loyal to the team, sacrificing individual glory for the best interests of the collective, i.e. Hamilton and Prince, in that specific order. If he is going to be able to right the ship in Detroit, Joe D. is going to have to find himself a head coach who shares his personal vision for the game of basketball and his understanding of how to use properly the most important/best players on the roster he has put together [and is still a work in-progress]:
Rip Hamiltonii. Tayshaun Prince
iii. Rodney Stuckey
iv. Ben Gordon
v. Jonas Jerebko
vi. Austin Day
Without finding that “Right” coach, the best players on the Pistons’ roster will continue to be rendered mostly ineffective .. both, this season and beyond.
Unfortunately, based on what I’ve seen thus far, John Kuester is not the right man for this job.
khandor
Why do you say that?
…..he hasnt had a full roster but for what 5 games?……Its a brand new offensive and defensive system and when the guys have played together hardly at all there will be struggles….He will be fine and so will the team in the future….They just had a lost season due to injuries….It happens.
by BennieBladesFan on Feb 9, 2010 12:10 PM CST up reply actions
IMO ...
Coach Kuester is not handling the different personalities at-play within the Pistons’ locker-room in the proper way, given their individual histories with the team.
Injuries are a fact of life in the NBA. If your team doesn’t have very good players to begin with then you can give considerable leeway to the coach, but … when your team has the number of average-to-above average talented players that the Pistons have, especially, at the key PG, OG and SF positions … then there can be no acceptable excuse for having a 17-32/.347 W-L Record [13th/EC] at this point.
e.g. The New Orleans [27-25/.519; 11th/WC] are a team that does not have as much pure basketball talent on its roster, as the Pistons do, but is still managing to hang together and compete effectively on a nightly basis in the tougher of the 2 conferences.
If Joe D. is going to stick with John Kuester … then, he should jettison his veteran players ASAP.
khandor
Throughout his career Ben Wallace has been a good "foot soldier" but he has not been the straw that stirred the drink for the Pistons or the actual leader of their team [i.e. Billups and Hamilton filled this role during the great run of the last decade].
As usual, the recorded facts would not agree with you. The Pistons of the last decade never featured just one straw, but a shared responsibility between multiple players. While Chauncey Billups was the offensive anchor, Ben Wallace was as important (or more important) to that team’s success— as is recorded not only in the statistical history but the chemistry of the team that couldn’t make it past the ECF without him.
The blue collar, grind it out, defense first style of play was never again the same after Ben left. And while he left for more money, I doubt you’ll find a Pistons fan here on DBB who holds a grudge against him, especially in light of the Benaissance we’re witnessing now. He was a silent-but-dominant, lead-by-example force in the locker room then— and if anything has changed it is that he is even more vocal now. This very article is evidence.
by Mike Payne on Feb 9, 2010 12:23 PM CST up reply actions 5 recs
I didn't say that Ben's contributions weren't important ...
IMO …
1. Ben Wallace was not the leader of the Pistons team.
Chauncey and Rip were the leaders of those teams … even though Ben’s defense and rebounding were absolutely crucial towards their on-court success.
2. Being an important contributor to a team’s identity is not the same thing as being a leader of that team.
3. When Ben Wallace decided to leave he changed his dynamic with the Pistons organization.
khandor
Rip Hamilton
Was in no-way a leader to that team. In contrast to the other four starters, only Tayshaun showed less leadership than Rip. Chauncey, Ben and Rasheed were the leading personalities of that team.
by Mike Payne on Feb 9, 2010 12:45 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
IMO ...
Saying that someone is a “leading personality” on a team is not the same thing as saying that someone “is a leader” on that team.
e.g. Leaders do not choose to go elsewhere for more money.
khandor
leaving for money
does not nullify the impact Ben Wallace had when here. Unless you can explain how Rip was a leader of that team, and moreso than Ben, this is just another example of you sharing empty opinions with zero fact.
for example ...
Q1. In the last 2 minutes of their important games … was Ben Wallace the player on the floor taking and making crucial free throws for those very good Pistons teams?
Or, were those 2 players, primarily, #1. Chauncey Billups and #2. Rip Hamilton?
khandor
hahahahaha
Free Throws? The guy who makes free throws in the last two minutes is the leader?
Without Ben Wallace, those “crucial” free throws won’t turn the tide of a game. The 46 minutes prior where BW dominated on defense were the reason those free throws could even be “crucial” to begin with.
There are two sides of the basketball court, son. Any elite level basketball analyst would know that.
by Mike Payne on Feb 9, 2010 1:32 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
From someone who actually knows who the leaders were
In previous years, we all took on a leadership role, but now I’ve really got to be a lot more outspoken, watching what I do, watching what I say, because I know the young guys really pay attention.
- Richard Hamilton, when talking about putting last year behind him and being more of a leader this year by default because he’s older and there are a lot of young guys on the team. He’s suggesting that he acually wasn’t much of a vocal leader in the past and that he’d need to step up a little more in that regard — who knows if he actually has.
Detroit Bad Boys- SB Nation's Detroit Pistons Blog
Twitter
by Packey on Feb 9, 2010 1:47 PM CST up reply actions 7 recs
But to suggest Ben Wallace was/is not a leader
is asinine.
Detroit Bad Boys- SB Nation's Detroit Pistons Blog
Twitter
when you query the importance of who shoots FT's in the last 2 min ...
… what you’re doing is indicating just how little experience you have when it comes to playing and coaching the game.
You asked for an example of something which is tied to the leadership provided by Billups and Hamilton, as opposed to Ben Wallace. I gave you 1 example.
You might not like the example I gave you. If so, then, unfortunately for you, that’s your problem; not mine.
khandor
Correlation.
Team leaders tend to be your best players. Your best players tend to wind up with the ball in their hands at critical moments. In other words, they are correlated.
But that is not always how it works.
speaking of correlations
In general, in the game of basketball, you cannot have a true team leader who is not also one of your best players.
khandor
right
like Ben Wallace- who was one of our best players that earned us that title.
by Mike Payne on Feb 9, 2010 2:54 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
You might not like the example I gave you. If so, then, unfortunately for you, that’s your problem; not mine.
No, that just means its a terrible example, and not at all indicative of leadership.
That's all
It’s a terrible example … according to you.
khandor
That is a terrible example of leadership.
Billups and Rip both shoot FTs at better than 80%, while Big Ben is a 50% FT shooter, of course you are going to want the ball in their hands. It’s just common sense and has nothing to do with leadership.
I didn’t look up the exact statistics.
by I like pink tacos on Feb 9, 2010 10:41 PM CST up reply actions
different types of leadership, no doubt
Yes, Rip has stated that his leadership with this year’s team needs to take a different form than it has manifested itself with his previous Pistons teams … especially with Chauncey gone from the beginning of the season this go-round.
khandor
Selective reading much?
Let me quote it again …
In previous years, we all took on a leadership role,
There was no single leader. There were multiple leaders. I don’t know how it could be any more clear?
Read again what I wrote originally
1. I did not say that there was only 1 leader on those very good Pistons teams of the last decade.
2. I said that: "Ben Wallace was not the leader of those teams.
3. I said that: “Chauncey Billups and Rip Hamilton were the leaders of those teams.” [please note the plural form of that word in this sentence]
4. I did not say there were NO instances when different players on those Pistons teams might have exercised different types of leadership skills.
5. What Rip Hamilton: “We all took on a leadership role,” is not in direct conflict with what I’ve written in this read.
6. Like you, I, too, fail to see how it could be made any more clear to others.
khandor
I don’t see it, khandor.
If Rip says “we all took on a leadership role,” and I’m going to take his word for that, how is your statement, “CB and Rip were the leaders of those teams,” not in direct contradiction?
it's really quite a subtle point, on my part, but ...
There’s a difference between having several different individuals who are each leaders in their own right, primarily, because they have a speciality which they bring to the table each day.
In this sense, there can indeed be multiple leaders within a basketball team who share their responsibilities with one another.
Was Ben Wallace one of those individuals for the very good Pistons teams of the last decade?
I’ve already indicated that, in my book, he was … as a key defensive/rebounding player.
This is not to say, however, that each one of those different individuals who contributed their skills towards the overall leadership of a joint project like those very good Pistons were, are properly viewed as being The Leader of those teams.
At least, not from my perspective … and, what I’m also going to sugggest, would actually be the perspective of a high end basketball coach.
Authentic Leaders of a high end basketball team must, almost by definition, be able to compete successfully [excel?] in All Three Main Phases of the Game [i.e. Offense, Defense and Rebounding], as opposed to just 1 or 2.
IMO, those who understand the game best, like coaches, for example, place a higher value on these types of all-around players within the team dynamic.
For those very good Pistons teams of the past decade, the actual leaders … in terms of stature within the team, and actual production, as well … were, IMO, Chauncey Billups and Rip Hamilton.
At the height of his career with the Pistons, although Ben Wallace was a very good defender/rebounder … as someone who struggled at the offensive end of the floor, when it came to scoring and effective shooting percentages … he was NO Bill Russell, who could still effectively Lead his team, despite his own struggles at the offensive end of the floor, as The Straw Who Stirred the Drink for the Great Boston Celtics’ Dynasty, no matter what.
In general, regardless how good a player is at any 1 or 2 parts of the game, unless he can excel, at least, to a certain degree, in all three main parts, it’s impossible for him to be legitimately considered as one of the authentic leaders on a high end team [i.e. the Great Bill Russell being, perhaps, the lone exception].
e.g. He can be considered as a defensive leader. He can be considered as an offensive leader. He can be considered as a rebounding leader. He can be considered as a vocal leader. He can be considered as lead-by-example leader. etc., etc., etc. … But, he cannot be legitimately considered as THE Leader, in an all-around sense of that word.
PS. Hopefully this makes my perception of who The actual Leaders of a basketball are a little bit easier to understand.
khandor
The counter to this, not that i think you’ll care… is that Rip has never been a great defender (he’s improved over the years, but he’s by no means great), so you definitely can’t say that Rip “excelled” defensively. He was better at defense than Ben was at creating shots, but you have to account for the value that offensive rebounds and tip outs add to an offense, both of which Ben Wallace is very, very good at.
Plus the obvious point; Ben Wallace was possibly the best defensive player of the entire decade, he was so much better on defense (and at rebounding) than Rip was on offense that IMO his overall production clearly dwarfs Rip’s by a laughable margin.
But, you’re welcome to your opinion of course.
Gabe F-B
1. It’s not that I don’t care about what you’re trying to say concerning these matters. I simply have a different perspective than you do.
2. If you review the links to the stats I posted in my earlier comment, I think what you will see is that as the Pistons team progressed toward the championship season in 2004, Ben Wallace’s actual productivity began to wane slightly, especially with the arrival of Sheed [and then the Diceman] … while Rip’s continued to rise. IMO, Ben was becoming even less of a multi-dimensional player and Rip was continuing to improve in this same regard. Then, in the aftermath of that season, when the Pistons actually had the bulk of their authentically high end teams … that were not quite good/fortunate enough it get another ring … it was Ben’s performance that dropped off considerably, to the point that he was eventually considered to be expendable by Joe Dumars, as Detroit continued on without him even being on the team at all.
i.e.
2001-2002, 50-32
2002-2003, 50-32 [Chauncey, Rip & Ben]
2003-2004, 54-28 [Champs: Chauncey & Rip, Ben, Tay + Sheed]
2004-2005, 54-28 [Chauncey & Rip + Tay, Ben & Sheed]
2005-2006, 64-18 [Chauncey & Rip + Tay, Sheed & Ben]
2006-2007, 53-29 [Chauncey & Rip + Tay & Sheed; no Ben]
2007-2008, 59-23 [Chauncey & Rip + Tay & Sheed; no Ben]
3. While I would certainly acknowledge that Rip has never been a terrific defender, IMO, he would still rate as a better defensive player [i.e. average] than Ben would rate as an effective offensive player [i.e. quite a bit below average] … especially in close games, coming down the stretch.
khandor
Looking at Ben’s career here, I think it’s more than a little unfair to say there was a “drop off” after Sheed arrived, for a couple reasons. First, Ben was already 30 by the 2004 season (the oldest of the core), and more importantly, it was only a “drop off” when compared to his obscenely productive prime years, possibly the greatest defensive seasons since Bill Russell was in his heyday.
You’re arguing that he wasn’t a leader because he happened to age slightly past his prime just as the rest of the roster was hitting theirs. That doesn’t strike me as logical.
Gabe F-B
Ben’s gradual drop in overall productivity is only one part of what I’ve said here.
Please don’t get me wrong when I say that … as good as he was … IMO, Ben Wallace was still a fair ways away from being the most dominant defender/rebounder in the NBA since the halcyon days of The Great Bill Russell.
e.g. Hakeem Olajuwon was very good throughout his tenure in Houston; and, Dennis Rodman, although at a different position, was a dominant force in his own unique way.
IMO, Ben’s drop off wasn’t just in comparison with his Herculean performances earlier in his career but, also, when measured against the increasingly important contributions made by other Pistons, e.g. Chauncey, Rip, Tay and Sheed [plus McDyess, although to a lesser extent], who were all on the way up, or were just beginning to plateau, in the aftermath of the 2003-2004 season, as you’ve correctly pointed out already.
As Chauncey & Rip were added to the roster … then, Tayshaun’s role increased … then, Sheed was acquired … and, then, finally, the Diceman was brought on board, IMO, Ben’s role gradually changed, to the point where Joe D no longer considered him to be one of the team’s leaders actually worth shelling out big bucks to retain.
Without Ben Wallace on the roster, at all, the Pistons still put together back-to-back seasons of 53 and 59 wins … despite having to work under a coach who was not in the same class as Larry Brown.
Yet, without Chauncey on the team last season, after the AI trade, the Pistons only managed to amass 39 W’s; and, this season, with Ben Wallace back on the team and Rip Hamilton continuing to struggle, in the system currently being run by John Kuester, Detroit is now on a pace to reach only 29 wins.
Believe it or not, I haven’t been trying to put down or de-value the actual contibutions made by Ben Wallace to the Pistons [over the last decade], in this thread … but, after recognizing his important role as a key member of their team, from a defensive and rebounding perspective, make sure that his contributions are put in the proper context when compared to Chauncey, Rip, and Tayshaun … 3 members of those same teams who would all have preferred to see their individual NBA careers continue on together as Pistons to this day.
khandor
Where's the Unrec button
"I didn’t even know Elvis was from Memphis, I thought he was from Tennessee." — Drew Gooden.
despite what you might like to think
Rip’s statement that “In previous years, we all took on a leadership role,”
is not the equivalent of:
“Ben Wallace was the leader for the very good Pistons teams of the last decade.”
As one of the 2 leaders for the very good Pistons teams of the last decade, IMO, Rip Hamilton’s opinions count for a great deal.
khandor
Ben Wallace was the leader for the very good Pistons teams of the last decade
No one has ever made that argument, to my knowledge. You keep bringing that up, but I think ti’s a strawman, isn’t it?
When Rip says “We all…” I think it’s fair to mean he means “We all…” not just CB and himself and especially not CB and himself as somehow more leaders than anyone else than the rest of “We all.”
Spokerperson(s) vs. Leader
1. Ben Wallace was not the leader of the Pistons team.
Chauncey and Rip were the leaders of those teams … even though Ben’s defense and rebounding were absolutely crucial towards their on-court success.
You’re confusing these two terms completely. The person that gets interviewed by the media is not always the team’s leader.
Ben Wallace led by example, as he continues to do — just watch Jonas Jerebko. Jonas has grown immensely just this season; it’s more than obvious where he’s looking for inspiration.
i think you underestimate ben wallace contributions to the championship team mr. khandor.
i will agree with you that billups was the leader, i would say the “brains of the operation(on the court)” but i think that ben wallace had a big impact on everyone he was playing with. his commitment to defense was a huge ingredient in the chip and the near miss the next year. i think that you are overstating rip’s role in all of that. he scored 20 points a game. thats about it. he was neither the floor general nor emotional leader and when he has been put in the leadership position in the last two years he hasnt really been exceptional at it.
Apparently though, it's a sentiment that needs some repeating.
"I didn’t even know Elvis was from Memphis, I thought he was from Tennessee." — Drew Gooden.
Of the key moves in the Pistons' original ascent this past decade ...
… the bolded items on this list:
- hiring Joe Dumars/2000
- making the best of a bad situation with Grant Hill [i.e. acquiring Ben Wallace and Chucky Atkins]/2000]
- acquiring Mehmet Okur/2001
- acquiring Rip Hamilton, Chauncey Billups and Tayshaun Prince/2002
- hiring Larry Brown
- acquiring Rasheed Wallace
were the most important.
khandor
au contraire
1. Ben Wallace was a key contributor to the very good Pistons teams of the last decade.
2. Ben Wallace was not a leader of those same teams, relative to Chauncey Billups and Rip Hamilton.
If you actually take the time to read what I’ve had to say on-line about the fundamental importance of Rebounding and Defense towards a successful [i.e. championship-winning] NBA team then you wouldn’t make the mistake of thinking that I’m a Ben Wallace hater.
Instead, when you make an observation like that … it simply makes you seem like someone who doesn’t really have the first clue about how I actually see the game of basketball.
khandor
really have the first clue about how I actually see the game of basketball.
And because all you do is consistently make an ass out of yourself here on DBB, I really don’t care how you see the game of basketball.
I think you’re a Ben Wallace hater because you’re clearly biased against him, and that list of “bolded items were the most important” is exhibit A.
by Mike Payne on Feb 9, 2010 1:33 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
when you don't take the time to really read what others write ...
… it is easy to misconstrue someone as a hater when the complete opposite is true.
khandor
really what Khandor has proved...
is that he likes to argue just for the sake of arguing.
Really that’s all he’s capable of proving because everything else he says is so based in opinion and not in anything actually measurable that there is nothing else for him to prove.
There ya go Khandor. Give me your opinion as to how your own opinions make sense to you and that we are all futile attempts at human conciousness do to the fact that your opinion generally occurs in the form of nonsensical ramblings.
Words in bold are extra important khandor.
My Music: Now on last.fm!!
My Blog: Strike Three Mechanics
you should just stop posting...
..because nothing that comes out of your deranged head makes any sense
by Sean W on Feb 9, 2010 1:14 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Of all those key moves, the only one not in bold should have been the playoff MVP in 2004.
by garrettelliott on Feb 9, 2010 1:42 PM CST up reply actions
Woops, I guess that doesn’t really make sense since I didn’t realize the Memo one was also not bolded.
Ben Wallace should have been the playoff MVP in 2004. That’s how important he was to this squad. There.
by garrettelliott on Feb 9, 2010 1:55 PM CST up reply actions
- hiring Joe Dumars/2000
- making the best of a bad situation with Grant Hill [i.e. acquiring Ben Wallace and Chucky Atkins]/2000]
- acquiring Mehmet Okur/2001
- acquiring Rip Hamilton, Chauncey Billups and Tayshaun Prince/2002
- hiring Larry Brown
- acquiring Rasheed Wallace
There are so inextricably connected … I don’t know how anyone who watched these Pistons could remove any of these pieces without disrupting the larger whole.
But, if I had to prioritize any of them, I’d argue that Ben Wallace was the most important piece because the team never got back over the hump once he was gone (also, statistically).
That and during those years, I can not count how many times this team (Billups, Rip, Tayshaun, & Sheed) rallied behind Ben Wallace everytime he got a huge block or grabbed another offensive rebound.
I can’t say the same for Rip at the free throw line but you can make an argument for Chauncey after every big 3 he made. But Ben Wallace destroying offenses on the defensive side of the ball takes the cake.
You may be surprised to learn...
that as soon as I read the first sentence I said “oh no,” for I knew its author immediately.
Throughout his career Ben Wallace has been a good "foot soldier" but he has not been the straw that stirred the drink for the Pistons or the actual leader of their team [i.e. Billups and Hamilton filled this role during the great run of the last decade].
You gotta be kidding me at this point. It is self-evident to anyone who watched the Pistons from 2001-2005 who anchored the entire defensive mindset that brought so much success to Detroit.
As Chancey went on offense, so went our team’s offense. As Big Ben went on defense, so went our team’s defense.
Sure, he wasn’t vocal in the media. But he absolutely led by example, each and every minute he was on the floor.
He continues to do so now, and if you watched the games, you would still see that.
And I can’t help but wonder how Larry Brown would value Ben Wallace ….
I hope we can get....
….Ed Davis from NC or Patterson from kent….I think hes the big guy?….I also like that 7 footer from Tulsa as a project in the 2nd round…Cant remember ber his name but hes being coached by former Izzo Asistant there at Tulsa.
by BennieBladesFan on Feb 9, 2010 12:09 PM CST reply actions
Just say NO
To Ed Davis. If you guys think Aldrich isn’t very good, Davis is worse. Just look at their records, Kansas is number 1 in the nation, UNC probably won’t make the tourney. Davis just isn’t very active on both ends of the floor, which pretty much nullifies his athleticism advantage. Throw into the mix that his footwork is very raw and his jumper is above par, you have project/bust written all over him.
Patterson is a nice role player, but no star. The best bigman without a doubt is Cousins, no one is even close to his scoring or rebounding efficiency.
by bearded thundar on Feb 9, 2010 2:20 PM CST up reply actions
thats the guy i was thinkg of....
….hes the freshman right?
by BennieBladesFan on Feb 9, 2010 2:32 PM CST up reply actions
No
Ed Davis is a sophemore for UNC, Cole Aldrich is a senior for Kansas and Demarcus Cousins is the star freshman in Kentucky.
You should read through my scouting reports (for Cousins and Aldrich), they’ll give you a clearer example of who the best bigs in the draft are. I’ll be expanding to include other players in the future
by bearded thundar on Feb 9, 2010 5:50 PM CST up reply actions
Here's what I think about my liege Kwame
when you have the head coach and clear leader of your team questioning your desire and pointing out how you could play better- you don’t laugh it off, you do it.
Kuester needs to look at this season in preparation for the next one in terms of what he says to the media… O.Deezy said it’s bad form, and it is. I really dislike it when a Detroit coach puts his own guys on blast like that.
"I didn’t even know Elvis was from Memphis, I thought he was from Tennessee." — Drew Gooden.
On the upside...
Kwame’s not a long-term player here, I don’t think, and Kuester’s a young coach.
Here’s hoping he’s learned from his mistake (which you point out rightly) from an expendable player.
My opinion on coaches/media/relations is always torn. On one hand, you’ve got HoF coaches like Phil Jackson playing mind games in the press with his players, putting them on blast, whatever, and it seems to work. On the other hand, I think it’s probably best to deal with this stuff in private. But maybe the behind-closed-doors attempts just aren’t working? We’re halfway through the season and it’s been pretty quiet on the media front and guys are still slacking or whatever, so why not try blasting them like this? Something, ANYTHING, to light a fire under them.
This really disappoints me
I thought Kuester would be a Larry Brown type coach, based off how many years they spent together. He just is too nice, has too much Flip in him. In all fairness, he wasn’t handed a very coachable set of veterans beyond Ben Wallace, but I expected more than to blame Kwame’s lack of pt on defense. I could have understood turnover prone or lack of fire, but defense? He was our best post defender behind Dyess last year.
I think the players know as well or better than we do
That the roster is ridiculously unbalanced, even with everyone healthy.
I had to restart my browser..
I was getting weirdness when I tried to post my khandor “O RLY”..
shtick fail :(
Every time Khandor posts...
… he puts himself on blast. I’m not sure how that’s “getting off easy”.
Well, not anymore than trying to give a speech in the nude is “getting of easy” because nobody threw a pineapple that hit you in the nuts.
by Big Z in Orlando on Feb 9, 2010 3:33 PM CST up reply actions
I thought it meant
Either: khandor gets off while posting on DBB OR khandor doesn’t get roasted by DBB harshly enough.
I could see either of those possibilities.
If a sole leader is required
I’d say it was Larry Brown. After he left things began to come off. And then when Ben left attitudes flared and guys got cocky and content, Chauncey included.
This team didn’t have a true leader among the players, they had 5 guys with one set resolve and a strong coach to guide them to it. Each served a purpose to the whole and they understood it well.Ben was the anchor, Chauncey was the floor general, Rip was the scorer, Sheed was the fire and Tay was the glue guy.
And if right now there are no leaders among out vets, at the very least there is a strong role model in Ben.
Joe D has forgotten what it takes to win, what "The Bad Boys" really were made of
Joe has forgotten what made a big part of the good teams he was on, and competed against had AT LEAST 3 bonafide big men, with some being young good athletes. Rodman, Laimbeer, Mahorn, Edwards, SJoe has forgotten what made a big part of the good teams he was on, and competed against had AT LEAST 3 bonafide big men, with some being young good athletes. Rodman, Laimbeer, Mahorn, Edwards, Salley. McHale, Bird, Parrish. Kareem, Worthy, Magic, Woolridge. Look at Joe’s legacy with big men here. Other than Wallace squared, what a bunch of old lethagic duds. Old man Webber. Old man Davis. Old man Theo. Old man Campbell. Worst draft pick in any sport in History – Drunko. The pathetic big man list is much longer than this. Even today, B Wallace is not going to win you much of anything in the playoffs, but he’s their best big man. I’m not sure why he went hog wild after small ball, but even Joe and Isiah would not have won it all without the bigs they had.alley. McHale, Bird, Parrish. Kareem, Worthy, Magic, Woolridge. Look at Joe’s legacy with big men here. Other than Wallace squared, what a bunch of old lethagic duds. Old man Webber. Old man Davis. Old man Theo. Old man Campbell. Worst draft pick in any sport in History – Drunko. The pathetic big man list is much longer than this. Even today, B Wallace is not going to win you much of anything in the playoffs, but he’s their best big man. I’m not sure why he went hog wild after small ball, but even Joe and Isiah would not have won it all without the bigs they had.
To be fair, the game has changed
Today’s game is much more guard oriented. It is much easier to dominate from the perimeter than it used to be.
In general ...
I have no problem with anyone who says that Ben Wallace was a key player with the very good Pistons teams of the last decade. I also have no problem with anyone who says that Ben Wallace was in fact the defensive and rebounding anchor to those same teams. I even have no real problem with anyone who says that Ben Wallace was, in fact, ONE of the many different individuals who could legitimately be seen to have provided leadership to those same Pistons teams at different times when different sorts of leadership were required by a team that did not have ONLY one dominant player. The only real problem I have in this specific area is with those who attempt to say that Ben Wallace was THE Leader of those same Pistons teams … as, IMO, those teams were led by:
#1. Chauncey Billups
#2. Rip Hamilton and, then,
#3. Ben Wallace.
When you look at the critical differences between the 2003-2004 championship team and the other elite Pistons squads which Ben Wallace was also on … both before and after the title-winning team … what you should be able to see is just how much more important other players actually became to Detroit’s overall level of effectiveness both that one season and the years after that, following the Rasheed Wallace acquisition, in comparison to the actual contributions made by Ben Wallace from that point forward.
2003-2004
[acquired Rasheed Wallece in Feb/2004]
When you then factor in that it was actually Ben Wallace who decided to leave Detroit, in the first place, in search of more $$$, it should not really be that difficult to understand how someone [like me for instance] might not consider him to have been a leader of their team in the same way as men like Chauncey Billups, Rip Hamilton and [even] Tayshaun Prince.
Others are certainly free to disagree with my assessment of the Pistons’ leadership situation during those same years.
khandor
Facepalm
So, you’re making two arguments that Rip was a bigger leader than Ben:
1. Ben became less effective after 2003-2004, and
2. Ben leaving Detroit made him less of a leader.
First of all, it is not clear that leadership depends upon production. Certainly it makes sense that the 12th man might not get as much respect, but Ben was still playing at a very high level and still setting an example with his work ethic.
Secondly, how does a decision Ben made to get a better paying job affect what he did before that point? It can’t. It might illustrate that he wasn’t a great leader if he was willing to leave, but I don’t believe that accepting millions more dollars makes him disloyal.
Nope
I said Chauncey and Rip were the leaders of the Pistons, not Ben Wallace.
Ben Wallace was the defensive leader of the Pistons … but, he was not the leader of their team.
khandor
So, if Chauncey and Rip were the leaders, and Ben wasn’t, wouldn’t that make Rip a bigger leader than Ben?
fact is
No, Rip Hamilton has not said the exact opposite of what I’ve said here.
khandor
you kinda just provd our point Khandor...
How many NBA Championship games did the Pistons get to after Ben Wallace left? How many did Ben Wallace get to with other teams?
My Music: Now on last.fm!!
My Blog: Strike Three Mechanics
The only real problem I have in this specific area is with those who attempt to say that Ben Wallace was THE Leader of those same Pistons teams … as, IMO, those teams were led by:
Who’s saying they were led by only one player and that the one player was Ben Wallace? I didn’t see anyone saying that.
What I did see was Rip Hamilton stating explicitly that there was never any one leader.
When you then factor in that it was actually Ben Wallace who decided to leave Detroit, in the first place, in search of more $$$,
There was more to it than money. Big Ben didn’t fit with Flip Saunders’ system. The money was certainly a factor, but it wasn’t the only one.
Others are certainly free to disagree with my assessment of the Pistons’ leadership situation during those same years.
Does Rip Hamilton count? Because he does.
actually
What Rip Hamilton has said about the leadership of those very good Pistons teams of the last decade does not disagree with my perspective on them in the least.
khandor
khandor, here’s what you exactly said:
Throughout his career Ben Wallace has been a good "foot soldier" but he has not been the straw that stirred the drink for the Pistons or the actual leader of their team [i.e. Billups and Hamilton filled this role during the great run of the last decade].
what Rip said:
In previous years, we all took on a leadership role, but now I’ve really got to be a lot more outspoken, watching what I do, watching what I say, because I know the young guys really pay attention.
and more Rip:
Different guys left for different [reasons]. I think, at the time, Tay and I were the two youngest [Pistons veterans]. Now we’re the two oldest, but I don’t think that here in Detroit they want to start all the way over and just blow up everything…
The way you originally phrased your claim, you said Billups and Rip “filled the role” of “actual leader,” and Ben Wallace did not. Rip’s statement disagrees with that. You didn’t say something like, “Rip and Billups were the central leaders, but Ben also contributed.” You plainly said, “Ben Wallace was not the leader. Billups and Rip were.”
Also, Rip’s self-aware statement that he and Tay were the youngest veterans from the championship team is a reasonable explanation for why they were the only two guys to never leave or be traded. Personally, I think Jod overvalued Rip/Tay’s contributions if he thought they were equally as important as Billups or Big Ben (or arguably Sheed also), but that seems to have been Jod’s opinion.
Also, Rip’s self-aware statement that he and Tay were the youngest veterans from the championship team is a reasonable explanation for why they were the only two guys to never leave or be traded. Personally, I think Jod overvalued Rip/Tay’s contributions if he thought they were equally as important as Billups or Big Ben (or arguably Sheed also), but that seems to have been Jod’s opinion.
I agree. Rip gave more money to Rip than he was willing to give to Ben Wallace. You don’t pay players multi-million dollar contracts to be leaders; you pay them to perform on the basketball court, first and foremost. Jod wasn’t willing to pay Big Ben as much as others would; so, Big Ben left.
brgulker
PART ONE
Please read what I wrote above, at 5:12 PM, Feb 11, 2010.
IMO, you pay players multi-million dollar contract to:
1. Produce on the court.
and, in certain cases,
2. Be a leader on the team.
PART TWO
Players who, at one time in the past, had a leadership role of sorts with a high end basketball team but who no longer have that specific title within the group dynamic can and, sometimes, do decide to jump ship.
IMO, when a player willingly chooses to leave a team, in pursuit of more $$$, when he is already making millions of dollars per season, he relinquishes any claim he had to be thought of as The Leader of that team.
Leaders do not jump ship.
Leaders sink or swim with the one that brung them aboard.
Cheers
khandor
So is MJ’s or Scottie Pippen’s leadership somehow diminished because they finished their careers elsewhere?
IMO ...
brgulker,
It is almost never a good idea to attempt to make a legitimate comparison between a player like Ben Wallace and 2 of the game’s all-time best ever players, like MJ and Pip. [i.e. whatever validity you will be hoping/trying to establish will be muted]
khandor
Why not?
If your argument is that a player loses credibility when he leaves a team, then why doesn’t it apply universally?
MJ and Pip are two of the best — I would never argue there — and I would further argue that them leaving Chicago did nothing to tarnish what they did in there.
But the same logic applies to Ben Wallace. It has to. You can’t just arbitrarily pick and choose which players fit into your criticism and which don’t. That isn’t a fair argument.
And on top of that, it makes it very difficult to have any real debate with you. If you get to make all the rules and then change them on the fly whenever you want, what could I possibly say in response to you?
Know what I mean?
In terms of specific details like these:
- MJ & Pip, and Phil = 6 rings in Chicago
then, if memory serves correctly,
- Phil Jackson decided to retire
- MJ decided to retire
- Jerry Krause decided to trade Pip
Neither MJ or Pip chose to go elsewhere in pursuit of more $$$, leaving his cohorts in the process.
Pip soldiered on without MJ & Phil
Phil & Jordan eventually came back in other locations because returning to Chicago was not an option for them.
IMO, there’s a world of difference between how MJ and Pip ended their careers with the Bulls and the way that Ben Wallace ended his with the Pistons … in terms of the Leadership roles they actually had for their teams.
[let’s totally leave aside the qualitative difference between them, i.e. in terms of being a multi-dimensional player vs a non-multi-dimensional player]
khandor
Phil & Jordan eventually came back in other locations because returning to Chicago was not an option for them.
Ben Wallace eventually came back to Detroit so he could end his career where it first began.
That right there, all by itself, says a great deal about how Ben Wallace views Detroit, how Joe Dumars views Ben Wallace, and what he accomplished here.
The point that is being missed completely in this argument is this...
Big Ben Wallace is not expected to be a leader to Rip Hamilton or Tayshaun Prince. He is expected to be a leader and a good example to the younger players on this team.
Regardless of how he left this team and what his leadership role was in his last stint on this team, he is here now in a completely new stint with mostly different players who are much younger and could use the teachings of a vet who has done nothing but work in his career as a player. That is his role now. What happened back than has nothing to do with the present.
Basketball is business. Nobody blames Ben for following the money. Only you Khandor.
My Music: Now on last.fm!!
My Blog: Strike Three Mechanics
leaders come from amongst a basketball team's best players
Q1. If you mean after Ben Wallace stopped being one of Detroit’s most productive players?
A1. Then, the number is 0.
khandor
Hey Khandor
remember this?
Bynum is a gigantic waste of time.
2007-2008, Detroit = 59 wins … no Will Bynum
2008-2009, Detroit = 39 wins … lots of Will Bynum
By your own blind rationale, this comparison is justified:
2004, Detroit = 1 championship … lots of Ben Wallace
2007, Detroit = 0 championships … no Ben Wallace
Thus, Ben Wallace = leader, most important player, etc. etc. etc.
I, of course, don’t accept that comparison. But you’ve used that exact same tactic, so I assume you’ll accept it? Any elite-level basketball analyst would.
Just wondering ...
What is your actual IQ?
Because sometimes it really does seem as though logic is something completely foreign to you.
e.g. Where does the word “leader” [or most important player, etc.] appear anywhere in the quote you referenced, pertaining to the ability/role/effect of Will Bynum? [Hint: It doesn’t.]
PS. Personally, it’s my guess that you don’t have a clue at what the actual difference is between a “tactic” and a “strategy”.
khandor
What is your actual IQ?
Somewhere in the 400s.
Personally, it’s my guess that you don’t have a clue at what the actual difference is between a "tactic" and a "strategy".
I’d love for you to enlighten me.
by Mike Payne on Feb 10, 2010 12:27 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
What is your actual IQ?
- Double take * Did you really just say that?
Personally, it’s my guess that you don’t have a clue at what the actual difference is between a "tactic" and a "strategy".
khandor, they are basically synonyms.
in the game of basketball, for example
No, they are not.
khandor
Tactic: An expedient for achieving a goal; a maneuver.
Strategy: A plan of action resulting from strategy or intended to accomplish a specific goal.
So, the strategy is the overarching plan; a tactic is a specific action that could be employed to implement the strategy. So yeah, you’re right. They’re not synonyms. My bad.
brgulker
1. Thanks for that acknowldgment.
2. In basketball circles, specifically, there’s another distinction which is sometimes raised between these two words, sarcastically, as a type of “in joke” amongst coaches, that goes like this:
A “Strategy” is what you can do when there is something effective that can be done to accomplish a specific goal.
A “Tactic” is what you are forced to do … in a lose-lose situation … when there is really nothing effective that can be done to accomplish a specific goal.
As I said, in basketball coaching circles, it’s really meant as a type of joke … as opposed to a literal translation.
[i.e. One way for a coaching insider to check to see if others of that ilk are actually about is to throw that little tid-bit out there. If someone responds affirmatively, then, you know that you are most likely dealing with another member of the fraternity/soriety.]
Cheers
khandor
brgulker
1. Acknowledged and accepted, on my part.
2. Hopefully, on your part [as well as others], you now know more about my ilk than you did before.
khandor
Don Diego de la Vega
… and, at this point in my life, that is precisely how I prefer to operate.
khandor
was there any point to this khandor?
after reading the thread it seems that what you are saying is that ben wallace was an important player to the pistons championship effort. well, you didnt really say that at first but now you have backed off that initial position and said that you have no problem with people thinking that. or whatever. so what was the point in initially saying negative things about him leaving for money? ultimately it was pointless, except to entertain me.
re ben leaving: if i recall correctly joe d low-balled him, knowing that a man of his obvious talents would command more in the open market.and knew ben wouldnt accept the offer. its not a knock on his character or leadership that he left for something like 16 million extra dollars (i dont remember the exact contract, i think we offered him 44 mil and the bulls offered him 60, but that could be off). basketball is a business first and foremost.
it seems kinda like trolling to me. coming on this site and saying tayshaun prince was more of a leader on this team than ben wallace is like going on the force.net and saying jar jar binks could kick han solo’s ass.
1. I haven’t insulted Ben Wallace in this thread. Try re-reading what I’ve actually written without looking at it from the warped perspective which thinks that what I do on this site resembles trolling.
2. I gave credit from the outset to Ben Wallace as a key member of the very good Pistons teams over the last decade.
3. I said that the leaders of those [best] Pistons teams were Chauncey Billups and Rip Hamilton.
4. I gave one example of the type of leadership which they exercised that was not a part of Ben Wallace’s individual game, as the fact that they were the 2 Pistons’ players who every Pistons fan [and fellow teammates, and members of the coaching staff, and Joe Dumars and Bill Davidson, etc.] actually wanted to see going to the line in the last 2 minutes of important games with the eventual outcome on the line.
5. I said that Ben Wallace’s role with the Pistons began to change when they acquired Rasheed Wallace [Feb 2004].
6. I said that Ben Wallace was someone who willingly chose to leave the Pistons in search of more $$$ and that loyality to an organization is a key component of actually being a leader for a team in the NBA.
7. I said that it would be a mistake for the younger Pistons to choose to emulate Ben Wallace, as opposed to one of the other long-standing members of the Pistons, e.g. Chauncey Billups [who was traded], Rip Hamilton [who is still on the team having never left] and Tayshaun Prince [who is still on the team having never left].
8. In general, the key members of this current Pistons team are: Joe Dumars, John Kuester, Rip Hamilton, Tayshaun Prince, Rodney Stuckey, Ben Gordon, Jonas Jerebko and Austin Daye.
Others are certainly free to hold a different opinion than mine and present alternative facts, if they wish.
khandor
i guess i would just have to disagree with you on rip and tay's leadership abilities
rip has a lil bit, but tay has next to none as i see it. hell even sheed was more of a leader than either of those guys, whether he wanted to or not the team followed his example. i dont really want the youngins to follow the example of rip and tay, i dont see why the fact that they resigned with us makes them role models. but as i said, we will just have to agree to disagree i suppose.
dd
IMO,
Agreeing to disagree is seldom/never a bad thing … and, in general, a good deal better than trying to insult someone else, or call them names, etc.
khandor
I beg to differ
We can agree to disagree about this subject.
khandor
Yes, I can agree to disagree. I’m cool with that.
But upthread the insults were flying on both sides. I think it’s important to hold oneself to the same standards — if not higher — as one holds others. I think questioning the IQ of someone else is a really passive-aggressive way of calling one stupid, which would be an insult.
But I’m happy to disagree respectfully. Absolutely. I’m all for it.
yeah, i have decided to attempt to be civil with khandor and see what he’s trying to say. even if he makes me angry sometimes, and this thread did kinda piss me off at times, im just going to try and hear him out and see what he has to say instead of bashing him unless he says something like chris webber was far more or a leader in his season here than ben wallace was.
brgulker
My perspective on the notion of “the insults flying back-and-forth on both sides up above” … is a little bit different than yours.
IMO, they were pretty one-sided.
In general, questioning the intelligence of someone who has not already tried to throw stones at the validity of what I’ve had to say about the game of basketball is not something which I do … especially after I have already tried to explain something to that person at-length. [I think that you are someone who can follow the double negative there … at least, if I’ve managed to write it properly.]
In contrast, in the different exchanges which you and I have had on DBB, as well as elsewhere, it has always seemed to me as though you are a very reasonable and level-headed individual with whom it is never ever a real problem to simply agree to disagree.
Much appreciated from this end.
khandor
mp, the difference between tactics and strategy:
strategy: to annoy dbb with a stream of nigh nonsense and condescension until they are foaming at the mouth
tactic: use passive aggression to imply that other people are less intelligent than you, imply that your understanding of the game is far beyond someone such as a reader of this sight could possibly understand. use emoticons.
by dandresden on Feb 10, 2010 12:32 AM CST reply actions 3 recs
khandor, this was a gratuitous waste of everyone’s time, including yours.
Seriously, what is the upside to this? Best case scenario: You convince us that Ben Wallace wasn’t a leader??? Hooray!! Would that have brightened up your day or something…? Puzzling.
I’m guessing that you are of the opinion that us not realizing Ben Wallace wasn’t a leader is indicative of us not having the same level of basketball acumen as you… and you are welcome to that opinion. I just don’t know why you thought posting your opinion would be persuasive to anyone here. And/or, if you didn’t think it would be persuasive, then why bother to post it at all…? Kafkaesque.
certain people are way just too sensitive to a different opinion than their own
Just because the opinion which I hold is different than the majority of other Pistons fans [or, even, all of them for that matter] does not mean that it’s a waste of time to state that opinion on a site like this one.
The original comment to which I responded was of the opinion that Ben Wallace was a leader of the very good Pistons teams of the last decade and is now someone whom Kwame Brown should be willing to listen to concerning what he needs to do in order to get more PT in John Kuester’s regular rotation.
I happen to hold a different opinion on those same topics … and very simply said as much.
If someone else doesn’t like or agree with my specific viewpoint that is perfectly alright with me.
I don’t ask them to stop commenting on my thoughts and ideas about the Pistons … unless, of course, they are someone who first requests/demands that I either have to agree with their viewpoint or stop posting my comments on this site in the first place.
khandor
Khandor,
it’s not the fact that you present your opinion that irritates the majority of the community here at DBB, it’s the fact that everything you say is only ever based in opinion. Barely do you ever use evidence, be it statistical or historical.
So my question to you is this Khandor, if you feel that your opinion is constantly slighted (which you should), why do you continue to visit this community? Don’t you have your own blog where you can post your own opinion without fear of it being obfuscated?
My Music: Now on last.fm!!
My Blog: Strike Three Mechanics
IMO
No, not any more … in comparison with Rip Hamilton and Tayshaun Prince.
khandor
but why? i mean even if his abilities have eroded he surely knows much about having a good attitude and working hard to earn minutes?
those could be valuable things for kwame to know, though i doubt he will ever amount to anything special.
IMO
It’s quite likely that Kwame Brown has already been told the “right things” to think/believe, as a role-playing back-up NBA player, by the likes of Michael Jordan, and Phil Jackson, and Kobe Bryant, and Joe Dumars, etc. Hearing them, again, in public [rather than private conversation], from someone like Ben Wallace, at this stage of BW’s career, isn’t what Kwame Brown needs right now.
khandor
exactly
Which is part of the reason why Ben Wallace should not have said what he said, in this instance.
khandor
With a guy like Kwame Brown
you have two choices- let him keep underachieving, or try to motivate him.. Wallace isn’t satisfied with the former, and is clearly attempting the latter.
"I didn’t even know Elvis was from Memphis, I thought he was from Tennessee." — Drew Gooden.
When therse are the words that Kwame had to say in response
re: “Listen, man, I don’t want something to be flared up on what I say,” Brown said. “I will do what the coach says in order to get better, although that is a first because there is one thing I do bring to the table and that is defense. That’s the first time I heard that. It’s the first time a coach said I don’t play defense. But like I said, I will learn to play the defense he wants me to play.”
IMO, Ben Wallace is trying to motivate him in the wrong way.
khandor
here's the exact quote
Notice how what the original writer had to say can [and should] actually be divided into 2 parts:
PART 1 – Some of his teammates said they don’t understand why Brown sits.
PART 2 – But Wallace said Brown needs more hunger.
Rather than focusing exclusively on what Ben Wallace thinks might be Kwame Brown’s main problem, perhaps, it would be more enlightening to the Pistons’ current situation, if their most ardent fans actually shone the spotlight brightest on PART 1, instead.
khandor
Dan Dresden
U-God and Wiz Khalifa are playing at the Blind Pig on the 23rd
"I didn’t even know Elvis was from Memphis, I thought he was from Tennessee." — Drew Gooden.
15 bones adv.
If you wanna attend lemme know I’ll snag a ticket for you.
"I didn’t even know Elvis was from Memphis, I thought he was from Tennessee." — Drew Gooden.
yeah ill get back to you after seeing whats up with work and whatnot.
havent been out in ann arbor since i lived out that way, sounds like that would be the event to make a triumphant return with.
how was the show at the lager the other day?
ive seen that hounds below band a couple of times, they got an alright roy orbison thing going on.
Hounds below is fronted by Jason from The Von Bondies.
Lagerhouse has ghettoblaster on tap.. I drank 6.. it was awesome.
4 bands for 6 bucks rocked. Scarlet Oaks were not so great but the rest of the card was great.
"I didn’t even know Elvis was from Memphis, I thought he was from Tennessee." — Drew Gooden.
yeah my buddy played drums in hounds below up until dec or so.
they are pretty great. got cool old rock n roll vibe going on.
i was going to head up there but this dude gave me like 8 free pint coupons for the detroit brewing company. i ended up drinking this 8.9% stout and getting wasted watching the end of the nets/pistons and the msu game with a bunch of randoms. i have no recollection of what happened after i left there.
That's ridiculous.
Hounds below has a lady bassplayer and a lady on trombone.
I was pretty impressed. I don’t know why they weren’t the closers. I’m trying to find some good local rock music to see so if you can suggest any man just do dat.
"I didn’t even know Elvis was from Memphis, I thought he was from Tennessee." — Drew Gooden.
That lady was knockin'
Is the drummer you’re boys with named Jeremy?
"I didn’t even know Elvis was from Memphis, I thought he was from Tennessee." — Drew Gooden.
If his teammates had actually said something like:
1. Kwame Brown knows the reason he is sitting. Go ask him.
2. Coach Kuester knows the reason Kwame Brown is sitting. Go ask him.
3. Other alternatives.
Then … there might be a good reason to pin the blame on Kwame Brown, as far as claiming to not have before now that the reason he was not playing is due to his poor defensive performance.
However … when “some of his teammates” say that they “don’t understand” why Kwame Brown is sitting then that’s yet another sign that one of the main problems with the Pistons right now lies with John Kuester and the way in which he is communicating, or not, with the players on this roster.
khandor
that does make sense
i just wonder how much any potential roster shake ups have to do with the over all atmosphere in the locker room. we can really only speculate on why guys dont know these things, though my first thought would be the coach isnt communicating well with them.
on the flipside however its not entirely unknown for the vets on this team to tune their coach out, which after 3 coaches i would say the blame has to go on the players and the gm not the coach. i often get the impression that the vets like prince and rip have this idea that “they played for larry brown and won a chip so who the hell is this coach to tell them how to play” really that kind of attitude is the heart of my dislike for tay and rip.
dd
1. I appreciate your acknowledgment that what I’ve tried to say here actually does have some sensibility to it.
2. IMO, just because it hasn’t worked recently with as many as 3 different coaches for the Pistons doesn’t mean that their problems haven’t really been rooted in those coaches’ deficiencies rather than the players, or the GM … if/when you realize that there are many many more poor coaches in this world than there are really top notch coaches, in the first place.
e.g. If the ratio breaks down something like this:
Top Notch – 10%
Above Average – 20%
Average – 20%
Below Average-to-Poor – 50%
and the Pistons were, in fact, able to successfully hire 2 of the Top Notch variety, in the form of Chuck Daly and Larry Brown, it might seem rather fitting that they are now going through a period of time where they are seeing how the other 90% are forced to live when the person heading up their squad isn’t in the same ballpark as coaches like Phil Jackson, Gregg Popovich, Doc Rivers, and Larry Brown, etc.
In defense of Joe Dumars …
[think of the following analogy]
After you’ve been married once to a great wife, who just happened to pass away, and then been fortunate enough to have found a second great woman, as well, who was a great fit while she lasted, but one who had always had a wandering eye herself, and whose time with you was only destined to be a fairly brief [but still glorius] encounter … then, at least, what you know explicitly when you decide to make another go of it with a 3rd [and 4th, and 5th, and 6th, etc.] potential long term partner is – almost right away after starting your new life together – whether or not this new person ACTUALLY does possess The Right Stuff to go all the way with you, on a long term basis. If she does, in your judgment, after an initial trial period, then, you SHOULD get her to the alter, ASAP. If she doesn’t, in your judgment, after an initial trial period, then, you would be doing both her and you a gigantic favour by cutting your ties right away. By this point in your life, after an initial trial period, you now know exactly what it takes for a potential partner to take you to exactly where you want to go. Which is not to say, however, that you are never ever prone to making a bad choice to begin with … because you are sometimes swayed by the same influences as other less astute men are when they look for a long term partner, e.g. good looks and an exciting personality, etc. … but, because after going through the life experience you’ve had to this point, with wives #1 and #2, you are at least smart enough to know what it is that you don’t have when it happens to be sleeping in your own bed, with you, on a nightly basis, after an initial trial period.
IMO, what Joe D. just might need to do, once again, after the conclusion of this season, is cut his losses and continue his search for a new lifelong partner in crime, who happens to share a similar mind-set to wife #1.
Even though it might be a difficult find … she’s the one who made Joe D. the happiest along the way, and there’s a great deal of value to be placed in that.
Keep On Truck’n :-)
khandor
In fact ...
I might even go so far as to say that … in this specific situation … Ben Wallace’s public comments about this matter may only have served to make the current environment even worse for someone like Kwame Brown [i.e. compared to what Rip and Tay have had to say so far].
khandor
not sure exactly
re: “Who would win in a free throw shooting contest, Kwame or Ben?”
… but I can tell you, without a doubt, that the actual “loser” would be the rim. :-)
khandor
big ben nails it
kwame just can’t sustain the fire. he is too nice. big ben is describing why jerebko gets minutes and kwame doesn’t. and i agree with the logic.
by andyfrombrooklyn on Feb 10, 2010 7:29 PM CST reply actions
I wanted Ben to mentor that dude ever since he started his come up.
It’s obvious Jerebko is the only guy on the team besides Wallace who gives it everything he has, every night.
All killer, no filler.
"I didn’t even know Elvis was from Memphis, I thought he was from Tennessee." — Drew Gooden.
I think Stuck plays pretty hard consistently as well...
and I guarantee BG would as well if he were actually allowed to play more than 15 minutes in a game.
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I’m a piston fan first and foremost, I love all 4 of those guys.
I need to see more out of a healthy Ben Gordon.
Maybe it’s just easier to see the results w/Wallace and Jerebko. Also, I’m a sucker for guys who give defense a priority. That’s what Detroit Basketball should be.
"I didn’t even know Elvis was from Memphis, I thought he was from Tennessee." — Drew Gooden.
yeah...
I’m a sucker for defense as well. I’ve just been paying extra attention to Stuckey. I’m seeing the kid grow this season. I think his assist numbers as of late are proving it. His next step in his development will be shot selection but until that develops his overall competitiveness is something to be admired.
My Music: Now on last.fm!!
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"I didn’t even know Elvis was from Memphis, I thought he was from Tennessee." — Drew Gooden.
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