John Hollinger: Overrated: Joe Dumars
"Let's look ourselves in the mirror, fellow media members: We've all given the guy a free pass because of his amazing run to six straight conference finals and blithely ignored the fact that he's screwed up a hundred ways from Tuesday since he decided to whack Flip Saunders after the 2008 conference finals.
Check out the résumé and find me a correct decision. Just one. Fire Saunders? Wrong. Hire Michael Curry? Wrong. Trade Chauncey Billups? Wrong. Extend Richard Hamilton? Wrong. Sign Kwame Brown? Wrong. Go after Ben Gordon and Charlie Villanueva? Wrong again.
In two years, the Pistons have gone from one of the best teams in basketball to among the worst. They stink, they're capped out, and they don't have much in the way of young talent; for all we know, in two years they're going to be the Pittsburgh Pisces or the Seattle Grunge or something. If Isiah Thomas or Rob Babcock had done this, we'd have buried them alive by now, so it's only fair for us to point out that regardless of his previous track record, Dumars is on a two-year losing streak of McHalian proportions."
(ESPN Insider)
6 months ago
Packey
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Glad to see John Hollinger
reads DBB (I kid). Surprised he didn’t even mention the colossal draft fuckups of the last two years.
Joe D doesn't remember what The Bad Boys really means - what it takes to win
I screwed up this post on another blog, but it belonged here anyways. Sorry if you saw it twice-
Joe has forgotten what made a big part of the good teams he was on, and competed against had AT LEAST 3 bonafide big men, with some being young good athletes. Rodman, Laimbeer, Mahorn, Edwards, Salley. McHale, Bird, Parrish. Kareem, Worthy, Magic, Woolridge. Look at Joe’s legacy with big men here. Other than Wallace squared, what a bunch of old lethagic duds. Old man Webber. Old man Davis. Old man Theo. Old man Campbell. Worst draft pick in any sport in History – Drunko. The pathetic big man list is much longer than this. Even today, B Wallace is not going to win you much of anything in the playoffs, but he’s their best big man. I’m not sure why he went hog wild after small ball, but even Joe and Isiah would not have won it all without the bigs they had.
More ESPN Schtick
What a dirt merchant he is for calling my team the future Pittsburgh Pisces.
John Hollinger, you deserve to be slapped with nine inches of limp dick.
"I didn’t even know Elvis was from Memphis, I thought he was from Tennessee." — Drew Gooden.
by Skylar on Feb 9, 2010 1:57 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
But he’s actually right about Joe D, at least from what’s posted here. I’m not an INsider, or whatever it’s called.
that’s all he said about Joey D. I cut and pasted the whole thing for those who don’t have Insider.
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Hi, my name is John Hollinger. I’m known for creating an “advanced metric” that doesn’t correlate to wins or really to anything in particular except for bulk scoring and my own subjective opinion. Please take everything I say with a giant grain of Himalayan mountain salt. Thanks.
(but, yeah, clearly Jod has been on a huge WTF-streak)
but, yeah, clearly Jod has been on a huge WTF-streak
Maybe even a WTFallaway-streak?
by Mike Payne on Feb 9, 2010 3:44 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
i don’t think Joe was even that good of a GM to begin with, but in the past having good ownership and coaches helped to even it out I guess.
He was just spectacularly hit or miss...
He’s always had his share of screw-ups, especially in the Draft (Mateen in ‘00, Rodney White at #9 in ’01, Darko at #2 in ’03) but he offset bad picks by really nailing some other stuff (the Hill sign-and-trade, JYD for Corliss, Stack for Rip, drafting Okur at #38, drafting Tayshuan at #23, the Rasheed trade, although that one was obvious, the McDyess signing). And he chose the correct time to bail on Carlisle and got an A+ replacement for him, no matter how ugly Larry’s departure was.
Lately, though, it seems that the good moves are few and far between. He’s had a couple of solid picks (Stuckey, Afflalo and Jerebko) but his big stuff (Iverson, Gordon / Charlie V, the Rip extension) has really whiffed. I don’t think that he’s great GM, I don’t think that he’s a terrible GM, but rather that he is a GM willing to take risks. Right now, the recent ones haven’t panned out.
by Grant E. on Feb 9, 2010 4:31 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
if he just signs BG...
I think it’s definitely viewed as a good move. But since the one move will always be lumped with the other they kind of (at this point) negate themselves into zero net gain.
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This is because he doesn't have people feeding him good ideas anymore.
I’m convinced he never had it in him from the start.
One of his first moves was fucking Mateen Cleaves. Fuck’s sake.
Good. Bad. I'm the guy with the gun.
If Isiah Thomas or Rob Babcock had done this, we’d have buried them alive by now, so it’s only fair for us to point out that regardless of his previous track record, Dumars is on a two-year losing streak of McHalian proportions."
But the point is, Joe is not these guys. He has a track record of some pretty good moves. So he’s not necessarily overrated, he’s just another GM who needs more time before we judge him.
more time?
I give him 8 days and 19 hours— the countdown to the trade deadline. Any longer than that is way, way too much time already.
I am not convinced that trading while the value for almost every player with significant salary (Rip, Tay, Ben G, Kwame, even CV) is low and likely to increase. Also, I don’t think Joe is in a win-now mode. I think he’s in a value-accumulation mode.
That’s why the BG trading rumors don’t seem that weird to me. Why wouldn’t he sign a player in order to use him as a trade chip later? Just because a player is available when you have money means he needs to be part of your long term plans. Of course, if that were the case, it would have been nice to get him cheaper, but its hard to know how contracts were negotiated and what each party was thinking.
that should be...
I am not convinced that trading while the value for almost every player with significant salary (Rip, Tay, Ben G, Kwame, even CV) is low and likely to increase is a good idea. Also, I don’t think Joe is in a win-now mode. I think he’s in a value-accumulation mode.
Also, I’m getting annoyed with this whole conversation. Can we just wait to see what Joe does in the next year, and how the moves turn out? This team is obviously not the end product.
After the colossal fuckups Joe has handled in the last two years
No, we can’t wait for next year. And this conversation is of more relevance at this exact moment than it will be this year. If I were Joe’s boss, I’d have a meeting with him all set up and ready to go for February 18th regarding his future as GM.
by Mike Payne on Feb 9, 2010 5:02 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Also, I’m getting annoyed with this whole conversation. Can we just wait to see what Joe does in the next year, and how the moves turn out? This team is obviously not the end product.
Drew, I hear what you’re saying, but isn’t that literally, word-for-word what we’ve all been saying since the Billups trade?
I mean, yeah, it’s not the end product, but we are leaps and bounds worse than we were last year … how can one be content with that?
by brgulker on Feb 9, 2010 5:35 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
He lost his LA privileges
when he dumped Billups for the irradiated midget.
Fuck him seven ways to hell, from that day forward.
Good. Bad. I'm the guy with the gun.
Firing Saunders was the right call.
Kwame was so-so. He’s ok if he’s your 4th/5th big.
And itsnt it way too early to call the BG & CV signings a bad thing?
Hiring Curry and extending Rip….bad ideas.
i wonder why the sudden huge dip in kwame’s stock lately. i always thought he was fine for what he was and he tried to play within his means.
but i do think that any signing of bg and cv for big money is a bad call. they’re perpetually injury prone and streaky, that’s the definition of the kind of player you don’t waste your painfully earned cap space on.
people like hollinger just like to make the cheapo kwame jokes
he is fine for what he is. kwame jokes are just catty lil knocks on his draft status. its lame. get over it hollinger.
As for Chauncey...
…we’ll see. It look bad now for sure, but he’s enjoyed a mini-renaissance in Denver.
What would Hollinger say if CB wasn’t traded and Detroit lost in the ECFs again? What then?
i think joe has done some remarkable jobs with late draft picks. other than the formation of the ‘04 team that’s his best attribute.
the darko drafting and the ai trade apart are arguably some of the worst movies in recent sports history. grand blunders. together they’re almost unforgivable. in my opinion the curry hiring and holding on to rasheed and/or tay for too long are his next biggest sins, but the gordon and villanueva signings were pretty awful too.
Wonder What Marc Stein Would Say About This?
Hollinger’s blast was ridiculous. All the moves haven’t been made yet, and there’s no shortage of 20-20 hindsight in this thread.
You need to see what they get for Tay and Rip, you need to see what happens in the draft this year, whether they make the lottery or not, and you need to see who they might be able to sign in this years’ FA class.
If JD could have forseen Big Ben returning, he might not have dealt Chauncey. But at that time, who could possibly guess that?
When the Pistons were on top, Dumars was ranked as a Top3 GM by ESPN. I think he’s a much better GM, than, say, Mitch Kupchak, just not as lucky. Maybe Chris Wallace will gift us the other Gasol brother and make JD look like a genius again.
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