Will Bynum Ain't No Schmuck

by Packey on Mar 14, 2010 9:46 AM CDT in News Comment 62 comments

On Friday night the Pistons' faithful witnessed Will Bynum (aka MFWB) shatter his career assists record and accomplish something (20 assists) another Pistons player hasn't done in nearly 25 years. If you're not quite 25-years-old yet, like me, it's the first time in your life that you saw a Piston rack up at least 20 assists -- the last being Hall-of-Famer Isiah Thomas' 21 on April 12, 1985. Bynum's 20th assist came after Ben Gordon knocked down a long two with a little less than three seconds remaining in the game -- a game that was all but already won by Detroit.

Normally, teams with a 12-point lead run out the final seconds, but Bynum took a Charlie Villanueva pass after a missed free throw, dribbled past half court, and made a 20 foot, or so, pass to Ben Gordon in the corner. When Gordon made the jumper, it gave Bynum his 20th assist.

It also opened Bynum up to criticism to those who felt like the Pistons should have followed an unwritten rule and simply run out the final seconds rather than try to help Bynum reach a statistical milestone. Justin Rogers of MLIVE wrote that it reminded him of a couple of schmucks:

It was March 9, 1996 and the Orlando Magic were soundly beating the Pistons. [Anthony] Bowie was having a particularly big night starting in place of injured Nick Anderson. He had 20 points, nine rebounds and nine assists when he grabbed his tenth rebound in the final seconds of the game.

Despite his team having a 20 point lead, Bowie called a timeout wanting to rack up one final assist and net his first career double. Orlando's head coach, and current Pistons assistant, Brian Hill, refused to draw up a play for the stat-padding stunt. Possibly even more disgusted, Pistons coach Doug Collins told his players to not defend the play.

Bowie ended up with getting the assist and the triple double, but ended up looking like a schmuck.

In 2003, Cleveland's Ricky Davis shot at his own basket trying to get the final rebound necessary for his own triple double. Again, schmuck.

Rogers went on to say that Bynum's assist "sacrificed class" and that the moment of celebration afterward was "unnecessary" because Bynum didn't need the 20th assist to seal a "dazzling" night.

I'll admit I don't know why 20 assists is commemorated so much more than 19 assists undoubtedly would have been (It may be an "arbitrary milestone" because Bynum could also be the first Piston to have 19 assists in 25 years -- I don't know), but 20 is a nicer, easier number to keep track of in the record book, I guess. It's a milestone, nonetheless.

It's completely different than those other two players Rogers references, though. Bynum didn't do anything crazy, like call a selfish timeout or shoot on the wrong hoop (which is just ridiculous!), to allow him to collect that last stat. All he did was play out the clock with his teammates.

But Rogers wasn't the only one who thought it was classless, according to a Washington source:

The shot infuriated Wizards assistant coach Randy Wittman, who shouted toward the Pistons' bench.

However, it didn't receive any mention from the Wizards' head coach, Flip Saunders, as far as I know, and the players seemed to place blame, if any, on themselves:

Asked afterward if he was upset, [Andray] Blatche said: "You can be, but you can't be. Guys in this league, they got their own accomplishments that they're trying to meet. It's our job to stop them. If they make a play at the end of the game like that, that's our fault. We can't criticize them because of it. It's part of the game."

Mike Miller actually praised Bynum and the Pistons' ball movement after the game. We only hear something from a frustrated assistant coach. On the other hand, as Rogers mentions in his piece, Pistons' head coach at the time, Doug Collins, tried to make it a point that Anthony Bowie's tactic lacked class by attempting to remove his players from the court, but because he technically couldn't, he instead told them to not defend the play. In the Ricky Davis situation, Utah coach, Jerry Sloan, was irate after the game and said he would have fouled Davis harder than DeShawn Stevenson did to prevent the impure triple-double. If Bynum's 20th assist was at all classless don't you think we would have heard something from the Wizards' head coach or players about it? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I can't find anything that says that final assist was at the expense of the Wizards' dignity.

(This is probably the segue into a debate specifically about running up the score. Some feel that playing your starters and playing really hard late in a blow out is classless and others think that there's nothing wrong with it. I think the NBA is a little less cut and dry than other sports in these regards (like in the NFL when a team winning by a lot late, it's pretty clear you can run it or a baseball team up by a bunch of runs late isn't going to stretch out hits or steal). In any sport, however, some would argue that if the other team can't stop it, then it's their fault, and Blatche explicitly states as much. These are elite athletes (or coaches) with enormous, competitive egos and they're not mentally programmed to give in. In this case, Flip Saunders was more worried about criticizing his own players in his post-game comments than to concern himself with an otherwise meaningless assist.)

In addition to being accomplished in a far more orthodox manner, 20+ assists is arguably a much more prestigious accomplishment than a triple-double because it doesn't happen nearly as often. In the last five years, 20+ assists has been cracked just 25 times. There were 40 triple-doubles last season (54 if you want to include this season's totals). 20+ assists has happened just a little over 100 times in NBA history, while triple-doubles happen on the reg (Jason Kidd alone has 100+).

Factor that all together and ask yourself if this really makes Bynum (and his contributing teammates) anything at all closely related to Bowie and Davis. Personally, I have no problem with last second, meaningless shot attempts, unless they are emphatic, backboard slapping dunks. I don't think I've ever felt uneasy about a player, on the winning or losing team, throwing up a last second shot just for the hell of it. I'm even more at ease in this case because the Wizards appeared to actually defend it, somewhat, and Gordon still had to hit a shot he hasn't been making this season. If one is going to take off his/her bias tinted glasses and nitpick a feat that hasn't occurred in almost 25 years of Pistons' basketball, one should bother going in the other direction and actually try to figure out if all 20 assists were legitimate -- similar to the analysis done on Darren Collison's alleged 20-assist night just earlier this week -- because a schmuck Bynum is not.

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this gave a team with nothing to be happy about

something to be happy about for a couple days. i mean, i know it sucks that washington has even less to be happy about than we do, but that’s no reason to be pissy.

besides, bynum going for his 20 is the only reason people stayed in the arena or kept tuned in to watch the end of the game. otherwise everyone would have been long gone.

he’s a struggling player on a drowning team who did something amazing, stop being pissy about your pride and give the kid a pat on the back.

by K Krush on Mar 14, 2010 10:06 AM CDT reply actions

Solid counter take

I like Will Bynum. I like him a lot. The game was a very impressive individual performance and it was fun to watch. But I’ll agree to disagree that the 20th assist was necessary. To me, there’s nothing that will ever justify trying to earn an individual accomplishment when your team is up double-digits in the closing seconds.

Imagine if the PIstons were playing the Cavs and Delonte West race down the court and shoveled a pass to LeBron in the corner for a triple double or 20 assists in the closing seconds of a blowout win. People can say they wouldn’t care, but I’m guessing they’d be furious.

P.S. Bynum is not a schmuck. I don’t think his “accomplishment” was on par with Davis or Bowie, but it wasn’t professional.

by jrogers923 on Mar 14, 2010 10:12 AM CDT reply actions

i think the difference there

is that the cavs are a winning team with playoff prospects. any time a team competing for a spot and eventually a ring is involved there are real stakes, things that cause genuine interest. purposefully chasing individual accolades is irrelevant to the big picture and insulting to everyone around you.

right now watching the pistons and wizards is less than meaningless. there is no interest at all when even a win can arguably be a bad thing. the fact the pistons found something to push themselves for, something that would actually engage a disinterested audience seems, to me, to be a good thing.

by K Krush on Mar 14, 2010 10:26 AM CDT up reply actions

Imagine if the PIstons were playing the Cavs and Delonte West race down the court and shoveled a pass to LeBron in the corner for a triple double or 20 assists in the closing seconds of a blowout win. People can say they wouldn’t care, but I’m guessing they’d be furious.

Well, I still think triple-doubles are completely different than 20 assists and LeBron has almost 20 triple-doubles already in career, so it’s not like it’d be a big time personal feat like Bowie’s or Davis’ (who as far as I know never even came close to a triple double again). If a guy is on pace for something like 20 assists and he hasn’t done it before (and doesn’t do something absurd like Bowie or Davis did) I really don’t see anything wrong with it. I’d be more frustrated than furious. In fact, I’d probably be wondering why LeBron was in the game late of a blow out as opposed to why West is trying to get the rare, once in a career chance at 20 assists.

I’m surprised you even thought about those other two instances if you didn’t think it was on par. I can’t speak for anyone else, but because of the rarity of the “accomplishment” and the manner it was accomplished (Gordon still had to knock down a long shot) I didn’t even think once about it being unprofessional.

And remember most teams, winning and sometimes losing, run out the clock of double-digit games and this would have never been accomplished if the Wizards had just ran out the clock instead of trying to get some meaningless points (which they didn’t get because the dude airballed a free throw and missed his second). Why is it ok for some scrub to get 2 points for his resume but it’s not okay for Bynum to try for something historical? I’d think same standard would apply.

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by Packey on Mar 14, 2010 12:26 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs

Yes, a triple double is a little more common than 20 assists, but those were the examples that came to mind. There was one with Bob Sura too.

I can’t see how it’s not unprofessional to push the ball up the court for an individual accomplishment when you’re up double digits in the final ten seconds. Again, let’s agree to disagree. Clearly we’re not going to convince each other.

Still friends?

by jrogers923 on Mar 14, 2010 1:40 PM CDT up reply actions

haha

absolutely – still friends. /bump it.

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by Packey on Mar 14, 2010 1:55 PM CDT up reply actions

The key comparison

Bynum did it within the game with integrity and without shenanigans. Bowie, Davis and Sura did not.

And yes, a 20assists game is much more rare than a triple dub, making Bynum’s “accomplishment” more “impressive”

by MwestBaller on Mar 14, 2010 3:50 PM CDT up reply actions

Key

Meeting changing from 3/15 due to Sy’s travel plans to Jamaica.

Yeah, this pretty much cinches the argument for me. If the Wizards were at all concerned with MFWB “showing them up” with 20 assists, they could have held the ball. In fact, I thought that’s exactly what the would do and didn’t think MFWB would get that last chance at it.

Not to mention it was a defended shot. It was an NBA play all around; defense and offense. That’s a big difference with the other two examples as well (clearly NOT NBA plays on the defensive end).

If you took the clock away, no one would have known that this wasn’t just another play.

by Big Z in Orlando on Mar 15, 2010 10:53 AM CDT up reply actions

Whoops!

Not sure how that happened, but the Blockquote should be:

this would have never been accomplished if the Wizards had just ran out the clock instead of trying to get some meaningless points

by Big Z in Orlando on Mar 15, 2010 10:55 AM CDT up reply actions

OK but

I hope Sy’s trip to Jamaica goes well.

by Toledo Joe on Mar 15, 2010 12:25 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs

My Boss

Me too, he’s my boss. One of the dangers of DBBing while working. Remember to to closely review anything you “paste”.

by Big Z in Orlando on Mar 16, 2010 12:46 PM CDT up reply actions

Remember to to closely review anything you "paste".

Irony.

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by brgulker on Mar 16, 2010 3:31 PM CDT up reply actions

If LeBron and Delonte did that, I would hate them more, but I’d also be yelling that much more @ the Pistons for not doing something about it. it’s their job to stop that shit, even if they have to trip the motherfucker.

Elbows, tripping, punching, do whatever it fucking takes … stop the embarassment, don’t ask people to show some unwarranted mercy.

Good. Bad. I'm the guy with the gun.

by sauce1977 on Mar 14, 2010 8:37 PM CDT up reply actions

Anyone else on the start MFWB at PG train?

I don’t mind riding on it solo, but a healthy Will Bynum is the best facilitator we have (and need).

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by brgulker on Mar 14, 2010 11:36 AM CDT reply actions

I think the Stuckey train is probably the one that's most empty.

Where in the world is Cheikh Samb?

by Kriz on Mar 14, 2010 12:40 PM CDT up reply actions

Sure, why not? Bynum is clearly a better distributor than Stuckey right now., although I’ll still give Stuckey the edge as a complete player.

Obviously the majority of the fan base would like to see Stuckey at the two guard, but as long as RIp and Gordon are here, it won’t happen.

by jrogers923 on Mar 14, 2010 1:43 PM CDT up reply actions

im on the stuck train still. he is still the better player at this point.

by dandresden on Mar 14, 2010 2:50 PM CDT up reply actions

thank you dandres, I am tired of dudes downing Stuckey. Stuckey has been one of our most consistently good players, playing as hard as he can. People here have bashed Stuckey all season long and given Bynum the highest props, why? Looking at some of the forums here they are statistically the same player. So Bynum had 20 assists this game, great for him. Stuckey had a 40 pt game, great for him. I think it is a little shitty of people to say “i’m on the Bynum train” now that Stuckey is out, but that is just MO.

by MaxiellEatsLittleOnes on Mar 14, 2010 10:12 PM CDT up reply actions

I think it is a little shitty of people to say "i’m on the Bynum train" now that Stuckey is out, but that is just MO.

There are those of us who have been on the Bynum train since Summer League ‘08 and still haven’t gotten off.

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by Mike Payne on Mar 14, 2010 11:16 PM CDT up reply actions

i hope they both do good. i dont think will should start over rodney though. it would be intresting to see how stuck did in a sixth man role though.

by dandresden on Mar 14, 2010 11:45 PM CDT up reply actions

I think it is a little shitty of people to say "i’m on the Bynum train" now that Stuckey is out, but that is just MO.

Stuckey’s injury has nothing to do with it. I’ve been saying this for a long time, bro.

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by brgulker on Mar 15, 2010 9:07 AM CDT up reply actions

I get that, there are a lot of guys who have always supported Bynum, I do to. I love that he is doing so well. But i just get sick of guys showering Bynum with praise when he has had a few highlight games and it seems like more clunker games, but Stuckey gets the bone all season long..not from everyone.. I seem to see more hate towards Stuck than anyone else (other than CV & Gordon..)

by MaxiellEatsLittleOnes on Mar 15, 2010 10:19 AM CDT up reply actions

but on a different note, Bynum is no schmuck, he deserved that 20 assist game

by MaxiellEatsLittleOnes on Mar 15, 2010 10:20 AM CDT up reply actions

I think its due to expectations.

Stuckey is expected to be a lot of things, and he has to be good at all of them. He carries the weight of being the guy that got Chauncey traded (not how I see it) and being Joe Dumars sacred cow (not how I see it either). Expectations are high for him, or were.

Bynum came with no expectations at all so everything he does will always be a highlight. Which I don’t say as an intent to sell short the good he has done, or the idea that he is a quality player. But all his fuck ups go unnoticed or swept under the rug because really some of us didn’t quite expect much.

Where in the world is Cheikh Samb?

by Kriz on Mar 15, 2010 10:23 AM CDT up reply actions

yeah i have higher expectations of stuck and while he might not meet them, i still think that he has a higher ceiling than bynum. we are in a rebuild now, who knows how long it will take? will mfwb be able to contribute a couple years down the road?

i like will, and he seems to be better at running the offense than stuck, but i dont think hes a long term solution.

by dandresden on Mar 15, 2010 1:02 PM CDT up reply actions

Purely IME

Will Bynum is a better PG than Rodney Stuckey. I don’t know what Stuckey is/will be, but what he is now just isn’t that effective.

That’s really all there is to it, for me. The guys we have on this roster who are designated “scorers” need a distributor to be effective. MFWB is the best guy on this current team to do that.

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by brgulker on Mar 16, 2010 8:28 AM CDT up reply actions

for the rest of the season. why not?

by andyfrombrooklyn on Mar 14, 2010 7:43 PM CDT up reply actions

Didn’t Stuckey have 10 assists by the time he left the Cleveland game early in the second quarter?

And that was against CLEVELAND, not Washington. I don’t think he would have hit 20, but it was within reach.

by Big Z in Orlando on Mar 15, 2010 10:56 AM CDT up reply actions

that’s cause Stuckey is the ish :)

by MaxiellEatsLittleOnes on Mar 15, 2010 11:00 AM CDT up reply actions

I think it was the third quarter but the sentiment still applies :)

by MaxiellEatsLittleOnes on Mar 15, 2010 11:05 AM CDT up reply actions

I have to admit I thought of it too.

And then again last night, Pistons were down 17 and with just a couple seconds left he went running to make a play, when the ATL players saw what he was doing they tried to take the ball from him, he ended up getting it back and quickly shoving it to Maxiell for the dunk and the assist. The last two minutes, with the game decided and the ATL starters out I felt he was just trying to get his numbers.

Where in the world is Cheikh Samb?

by Kriz on Mar 14, 2010 12:38 PM CDT reply actions

You'd think millions of dollars and the chance to emerge as the face of the franchise

would be reason enough for Stuck to do what’s required to truly be the point guard the team needs. Maybe Bynum being assigned starting PG will cause the stars to align.

I don’t MFWB is the MFanswer at MFPG but he’s probably the best road to take for the near future. Unless the draft gives us a fantastic pickup. First and foremost, Stuckey has to figure out why he collapsed the other night.

"I didn’t even know Elvis was from Memphis, I thought he was from Tennessee." — Drew Gooden.

by Skylar on Mar 14, 2010 1:15 PM CDT reply actions

I watched the SEC Finals today

John Wall is the real deal.

He’s no where near the passer that Isiah was, but he’s almost just as good of a scorer. But really the thing that sold me is that he made a lot of plays to force overtime and basically won it himself in OT. He’s got that same killer instinct that we saw in Tyreke a month ago.

However I would still like to point out that’s he’s no better a distributor than Stuckey. In fact Turner is a better passer. The key difference between him and Stuck is hang time, which allows him to finish in creative ways around the rim that Stuck cannot. Also Wall is a somewhat better shooter (better mechanics, but lacking range – so far).

by bearded thundar on Mar 14, 2010 3:05 PM CDT up reply actions

totally disagree. why do people make Bynum out to be the best option when he and Stuck are basically statistically the same? Bynum had a great night, no doubt about it, but I don’t think that makes the case against Stuckey, who has been great for us ALL YEAR. I’m a Stuckey slappy though, what do I know?

by MaxiellEatsLittleOnes on Mar 14, 2010 10:14 PM CDT up reply actions

why do people make Bynum out to be the best option when he and Stuck are basically statistically the same?

Statistically, Bynum is a much better finisher at the rim, a much better distributor and a significantly more efficient shooter.

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by Mike Payne on Mar 14, 2010 11:20 PM CDT up reply actions

who has been great for us ALL YEAR. I’m a Stuckey slappy though, what do I know?

That’s where I would disagree with you (while fearing that my future children might be eatn as a result!!!)

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by brgulker on Mar 15, 2010 9:08 AM CDT up reply actions

Forcing 20 assists is different than triple double IMO

It’s quite simple, to get an assist, you have to set up your teammates. So even though an individual stat, your teammates are actually getting the better end of the stick. Where as to get a triple double, you have to do a lot of scoring and rebounding on top of assisting, and those are categories that only you benefit from. I would say it’s a lot less selfish to force a 20th assist than to force a rebound or bucket.

And to be honest, I’m fairly sure Washington recognized this and purposely gave Will the final opportunity that he cashed in on. The game clock was at 23 seconds, they had no real reason to shot the ball so early. If anything, they should have killed to clock to save a bit of face. But instead they chose to take the shot, which it clearly meant that they were okay with Will shooting for 20.

by bearded thundar on Mar 14, 2010 3:01 PM CDT reply actions

every piston needs to play every minute

like it is his last on earth. because that is the difference between losing and being a loser.

by andyfrombrooklyn on Mar 14, 2010 7:45 PM CDT reply actions

Running up the score

it’s pretty acceptable in pro ranks in any sport because they ARE professionals and their level of competition should behoove the losing team to stop the bleeding. If they can’t, then they deserve zero mercy.

Bynum’s 20 assists are impressive with or without the forced 20th. Forcing a 20th doesn’t take anything away from it.

Good. Bad. I'm the guy with the gun.

by sauce1977 on Mar 14, 2010 8:34 PM CDT reply actions

this is a BS article

1. blame ben gordon for makin for the shot
2. blame the rim for being so large
3. blame the wizs for sucking in that game
4. blame whoever that made the basket for bynum’s 19th assist
5. blame the wizs for not putting a hand on gordon’s face

by JC no1 pistons fan on Mar 14, 2010 11:22 PM CDT reply actions

Get lucky. Draft Evan Turner. Trade our entire team.

Some shmuck of a team is going to take Wall first overall and Evan Turner is going to be a Hall of Famer. Put it on the books. I just hope we luck into this guy.

MFWB vs. Stuck

Meh. It really doesn’t matter as long as the rest of the supporting cast is so unbalanced and and shitty.

by The Joel on Mar 15, 2010 8:52 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs

QFT!

PG is not on the top of my list of problems.

Where in the world is Cheikh Samb?

by Kriz on Mar 15, 2010 10:15 AM CDT up reply actions

I didn't actually quote though

Where in the world is Cheikh Samb?

by Kriz on Mar 15, 2010 10:15 AM CDT up reply actions

Kriz’s #1 problem: deciding whether she & Jonas will purchase a home in Detroit, PR, or Sweden.

by -PS- on Mar 15, 2010 10:19 AM CDT up reply actions

Well we will have to live in Michigan because that's were he works and since he makes far more money than me thats where we have to be.

Our summer home though will be in PR, and I will make all the arrangement so our children are born in PR, all 3 of them. We will go to Sweden on short vacations and to visit his family, plus it will help the open minded growth of our children to be fully aware and in contact with their different cultures.

Where in the world is Cheikh Samb?

by Kriz on Mar 15, 2010 10:26 AM CDT up reply actions

That sounds logical. Good luck!

by -PS- on Mar 15, 2010 1:35 PM CDT up reply actions

Turner is the better player

But Wall is the better prospect. I wouldn’t go so far as to call Turner a HOF player, but he looks like a better version of Brandon Roy without as much range.

Regardless of order, it’s pretty much set in stone that Turner, Wall and Cousins will go 1,2 and 3 (but not necessarily in that order, as far as we know Cousins could go 1) short of someone pulling a Thabeet and drafts Davis over Turner (I mean seriously, Tyreke played a block away from the Grizzlies, he was practically handed to them).

by bearded thundar on Mar 15, 2010 2:19 PM CDT up reply actions

Turner vs. Grant Hill

That’s the comparison I draw when I watch the kid play. Fills up the stat sheet. Does it all. Gets his teammates involved. Scores at a ridiculously high efficiency. Doesn’t have a lot of range, but it doesn’t matter, because he still gets wherever he wants.

Draft him if you can. He’s a sure thing.

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by brgulker on Mar 16, 2010 8:29 AM CDT up reply actions

I don't get why everyone is so worked up

I agree with the “you’re professionals, it’s your job to stop him” logic. You didn’t stop his first 19 assists, why are you so mad he got one more at the end?

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by ReichardZ on Mar 15, 2010 2:19 PM CDT reply actions 3 recs

rec'd

by Band Aid on Mar 15, 2010 4:40 PM CDT up reply actions

i think bynum has a higher cieling than stuckey

it is about ability to adapt and learn the game. to often talent scouts go for the physique factor. and yes john elway was great but so was puny joe montana and ryan leaf sucked. stuckey should be evaluated on his performance not his physique or semblance to chauncey.

by andyfrombrooklyn on Mar 15, 2010 2:59 PM CDT reply actions