The Changing of the Guards: If Not Stuckey, Then Whom? Part I
by Mike Payne on May 4, 2010 10:50 PM EDT
in Detroit Pistons Previews
Email
PrintLast week, Vince Ellis of Freep.com suggested that "more than one person around the league has said the team probably will be in the market for a starting-caliber point guard". This spurned a pretty active, interesting discussion here on DBB that will likely continue throughout the off-season. The question, of course, is that if Rodney Stuckey will not be playing the point in Detroit, who will?
While Ellis only offered a few names, specifically John Wall, Chris Paul or Raymond Felton, there is a long list of point guards available in free agency and a shorter, but more talented list of realistic trade options. Of course, Detroit's primary needs are in its frontcourt. If Detroit can address those needs with both its draft picks and then a primary trade, what are the available options for a secondary trade or the MLE? Second, do any of these options pose a significant upgrade over Rodney Stuckey? The list begins after the jump.
The Free Agents: Part One, Likely Candidates
(in no particular order)
1. Raymond Felton
Felton closed out the year with 12.1 ppg and 5.7 apg, both down from last year with 4 less minutes per game and nearly 3 less field goal attempts. He improved his field goal efficiency from 40.8% to 45.9%, mostly thanks to improved scoring from outside the arc (in a season, he went from Rodney Stuckey to Chauncey Billups from the three point line).
Felton earned $5,501,196 last year and is now an unrestricted free agent. Expect teams like New York and Miami to court Felton after the premier free agents sign their paperwork and money is left to spend. It is likely that he'll earn slightly more than the MLE in those cases, but beyond that he'll be looking at part or all of the MLE elsewhere.
The problem is, Felton is both a poor fit for this team and, throughout his career, less efficient even than Rodney Stuckey. Felton is 6'1" and can't defend the 2, something Stuckey can do alongside the undersized Ben Gordon. While Raymond shot well this year, it could be an abberation-- he's averaged under 40% from the floor throughout his career until this season. For the full MLE, Detroit would be getting a short, poor-shooting point guard with no defensive versatility. He improved in his contract year, but went right back to his old self in the playoffs.
Verdict: Pass. Felton does not present an upgrade over Rodney Stuckey.
2. Luke Ridnour
While Felton saw an uptick in efficiency during his contract year, Ridnour exploded. Ridnour improved from 40.3% shooting last year to 47.8% shooting this season, providing a much-needed dose of efficiency behind Brandon Jennings in Milwaukee's depth chart. Ridnour is a decent defender and a crafty passer, but beyond that is a bit too undersized to handle bigger guards. That said, at 6'2, he has height on Felton-- and between the two players Ridnour is likely the smarter bargain. Having produced a 17.7 PER off the bench behind Jennings, he could be a bench spark for a contender in the coming season.
Ridnour has flourished in a bench role where Felton hasn't produced with starter's minutes. Teams looking to bolster their depth at the point for a championship run would be wise to offer Ridnour a portion of the MLE, and he would be wise to take it.
Verdict: Pass. Ridnour would be a great backup point guard, but the Pistons aren't in need.
3. Randy Foye
Statistically, Randy Foye is a poor man's Raymond Felton. While that much isn't quite a selling point to most teams, his skill set is well suited to a backup point role. Due to the lack of quality point guard starters, Foye has lucked into a few starting gigs just as Felton and Ridnour have.
Foye has a pretty solid outside shot-- better than Felton or Ridnour, and it shows in a slight improvement in field goal shooting across the board. Slight, but not an upgrade over Stuckey. A 41.9% career shooter, it would be hard to argue that Foye could hold a starting spot and earn the Pistons more wins than Stuckey. And beyond that outside shot, he's not as "apt" a distributor as Rodney, which is saying less than very little.
As far as size and defense, he poses an upgrade over Felton and Ridnour, but not Rodney Stuckey.
Verdict: Pass. Again, a solid backup point player, but no substitute for Stuck.
4. Steve Blake
While Steve Blake may be another guard who has "lucked into a few starting gigs", he's shown he's more apt than your average second string backup. He's a great outside shooter, he's capable of handling bigger guards, he's a good passer and can manage pick-and-rolls like few others (just ask LaMarcus Aldridge).
Still, his efficiency and age pose question marks, and the only role he'd hold in a Pistons uniform is to replace Chucky Atkins, albeit with many more minutes (and less brainless offensive fouls).
Verdict: Pass. Unless we can't re-sign Will Bynum, then Blake could be a great, inexpensive option off the bench.
5. Will Bynum
I was surprised at the turning of the love for MFWB as this season closed. Bynum was hampered by some nasty injuries this season, and the main thing that suffered with Will was one of his two great strengths: lock-down guard defense. While his driving offense showed signs of life later in the season, his lock-down D did not. If Will can't get that back, the Pistons shouldn't offer much more than the vet minimum. However, I don't doubt for a moment that he'll be locking down his man at the start of the season.
If Bynum can enter training camp at full strength, and his contract options aren't exorbitant, he has the understanding of our squad and playbook to manage the point until better options arrive. Should that period last a full season, so be it. Bynum has earned both the love of the Pistons fans and the backing of the organization, so if we start the season in October with Will at the point, things could certainly be worse.
Bynum won't be a long-term option at the point, but his price tag and output could make him a temporary starter and a long-term backup as the Pistons move forward. Compared to Felton, Foye and Ridnour, Will Bynum has been a better passer, remains a better finisher and a superior defender. He doesn't have an outside game, but his strengths outweigh his weaknesses.
Verdict: If the price is right, re-sign him. He is as red, white and royal blue as it gets-- and can handle the starting job until better options arrive.
Sure, I could just link to that terrible photo of Shaun's knee on court, but I'll try to communicate less disturbingly. 39 games. That's his per-season average throughout a five year career.
If Shaun were an 82-game lock, season after season, he'd be worth the MLE. He's not an outside shooter and he's not a great passer, but lately he's efficient when he does choose to shoot the ball. It's a foolish gamble, even for a veteran's minimum, when you're a team in transition. If you're a "rest until the playoffs" contender, then he's got value for the minimum and no more.
Verdict: Pass. Knee.
Verdict: Pass. Douche.
Okay, I kid. The real analysis: a decent shooter from the perimeter and efficient inside, a good defender and a below-average passer. His youth and the colors on his jersey may earn him more than the ~$3 million he's due as a qualifying offer next year, but hopefully not by the Pistons. He hasn't done much since the 2007-08 campaign, when he began to look like he might replace Fisher in the staring lineup.
Chances are, if he goes anywhere, it will be to that starting job next year.
Verdict: Pass. Douche.
9. CJ Watson
Golden State's clusterfuck at the, well, 1-through-combo-forward positions is legendary. Don Nelson is like the Lou Pearlman of coaches-- he's creepy, drunk and likes to put undersized young men in uncomfortable positions. Thanks to the Justin Timberlake of point guards, Stephen Curry, CJ Watson will likely not return to Golden State next season.
He shoots very well from outside, he's efficient across the board, doesn't turn the ball over much and is decent defensively. He put up 15 and 5 on 49% shooting in 15 starts this season at the point, which should earn him every team's attention. In short, he's ready to leave the boy bands behind and join the big time. When he's been given the chance to shine on his own, he's shown he's capable of managing the show.
At the very worst, Watson is a solid backup point guard. At the best, he's a solid starter to be played next to a 2-guard who needs the ball to score. Attention, Miami.
Verdict: Keep your eye on the kid, if half of the MLE is the price and Detroit has their frontcourt shit in order, Watson should be on the menu.
10. Sergio Rodriguez
Okay, I'm kind of grasping at straws at this point. I was trying to figure out which player DBBer's might mention more this summer: Rodriguez or Duhon? I think that pretty much sums up my entire point.
Verdict: Pass. Although Sergio Mendes and Brasil '66 is an awesome album.
The Free Agents: Part Two, The Rest
(again, in no particular order)
The rest of these players are real, available free agents whom the Pistons could sign this season. Consider this your lightning round, no long analysis here just short, quick and dirty quips. Bear in mind, the point of this is to find a player who should start over Stuckey at the point.
1. Nate Robinson - Krypto-no.
2. Kyle Lowry - Mini-Stuckey.
3. Carlos Arroyo - Name sounds familiar...
4. Eddie House - Old, bleeds green, shoots nothing but threes. Rasheed? A true haiku.
5. Lindsey Hunter - MFWB 1.0
6. Jannero Pargo - Wait, you mean Johan Petro? Then we could talk vet minimum.
7. JJ Barea - Considerable option for a backup point.
8. Anthony Carter - Chucky Atkins 1.0 (but great as an extra in the next Aliens movie)
9. Allen Iverson - *facepalm*
10. Rafer Alston - Skip to my no thank you.
11. Chris Duhon - See-rgio above.
12. Speedy Claxton - Cool name, Mason would have fun with it.
13. Acie Law - Drafted over Stuckey, plays under Stuckey.
14. Travis Deiner - At 27, he's a little old for the D-League.
15. Earl Watson - Had some of the best games of his career against Detroit, beyond that, very little.
16. Derek Fisher - Should we trade for Kobe or draft Turner, maybe we can talk. Even then, probably not.
17. Anthony Johnson - Didn't we already talk about him? Oh wait, that was Carter, Anthony Carter.
18. Royal Ivey - Solid at lowering cholesterol, taken as an anti-inflammatory or an anti-biotic.
19. Javaris Crittenton - Good shooter.
20. Mike James - Cocaine is a hell of a drug.
21. Jamaal Tinsley - Cocaine is a hell of a drug.
22. Antonio Daniels - Still waiting for him to peak.
23. Chris Quinn - Just get a reference from Shaq first.
24. Jason Williams - Ditch the zero, get with the hero.
25. Earl Boykins - Always liked dude, heart as big as Shaq in a little frame.
Next up? The realistic trade options. Though 35 is a pretty big list in terms of free agency, I personally haven't found any names that are worth the MLE that should start over Rodney Stuckey. Stuckey has his faults, but working to acquire pretty much any name above doesn't guarantee an upgrade over our current point man. With that, why spend on any of these names if they won't make us a better team?
The Draft of Point Guards has came and went, and we opted for a gang of combo forwards. Since free agency won't heal our wounds, we'll next explore trade options that could improve our options at the point-- only after we've made our primary moves for big men. Keep your eyes open, the next in the Changing of the Guards series is coming soon... Trade Speculation is next on this little menu.
179 comments
|
2 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
farmar is a douche. completely worthless player. going over this list there isnt really a single player that i would be overjoyed about the pistons signing.
i'm with you, MFDD
there isn’t a single free agent outside of MFWB i’d want on this team, save for maybe CJ Watson— and even then only as a backup. My point with part I of this series is to show that Rodney Stuckey, as limited and underperforming as he is, is our best option.
"Gee'drah write a rhyme in the time he hollow out a flask - crack a Guinness stout with his teeth one time, swallowed the glass"
Can we improve our current roster in the offseason like in NBA Live? I’d like Stuckey to get +20 on his jump shot rating.
by garrettelliott on May 5, 2010 12:01 AM EDT up reply actions
yeah it was a good post mfmp, i wasnt aware of the suck that was available at pg this year. all the more reason to shore up that front court this year instead of chasing after guards.
aaaaaaaaaagreeeeeeeeeeeeeeed
"Gee'drah write a rhyme in the time he hollow out a flask - crack a Guinness stout with his teeth one time, swallowed the glass"
Lottery pick again then
If stuckey is our best option then we are in trouble again. He has a big heart but he needs to improve on his drive to the basket his mid range shooting and his outside shooting. Every defender knows when stuckey gets the ball he will do one of two things drive to the basket or miss a jumper. so what do they do clog the lanes and let him miss. He wont set up his team as much as he needs to, and whoever is guarding him knows that hell the whole team knows that. Stuckey has alot of work to do as a star player at best he has a starting role until a better option comes up should be a insult to him cause it would be to me, if my wife said oh imma keep you around till i find a better one. If he stays at the point again another year it will not be a good year, The free agent market has good names but are names good enough to do better the stuckey? Some are and most arent, But putting him at the point again will be insane unless he is with a coach right now working on improving his game and he isnt
Watching Justified and browsing DBB when I should really be working on a play
Is there any good point guards we could trade for? Is there a PG whose contract matches up nicely with Tayshaun or Rip’s that can shoot the three, defend, and pass? I’m feeling kinda lazy right now and gotta do some homework, so what does anybody know?
by Biz Markie Moon on May 4, 2010 11:40 PM EDT reply actions
It's badass.
Everybody’s shooting witty quips and shotguns back and forth, so it’s at once really laidback and sorta tense. Just a nice show to kinda detach and watch. It’s not The Wire or Deadwood or The Twilight Zone or anything, but it’s entertaining without being retarded. So yeah, I definitely like it.
by Biz Markie Moon on May 4, 2010 11:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Really?!
I thought the first episode was f *cking bad ass. However, it’s storyline is too scattered to keep my attention. It took like 4-5 episodes to get back to that Boyd Crowder character. If each episode really lent itself to the next it’d be a much better show.
It's Iupati Time!
that's part II, Biz Markie Moon
note the end of my article, I have a follow-up coming on trade options shortly.
"Gee'drah write a rhyme in the time he hollow out a flask - crack a Guinness stout with his teeth one time, swallowed the glass"
didn’t we trade a PG whose contract matches up pretty nicely with tayshaun/rip who can shoot the 3, defend, and pass and got in return a $21 million dollar cancer?
by don'tworryaboutit on May 5, 2010 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Can't Get Too Excited About This List
The only guy who would intrigue me is, of course, MFWB.
I don’t think any moves are going to be made anyway until we know where we’re drafting.
Finally, while we’re not directly going to be big players right now in FA, there may be some sign/trade action going on later involving Rip and Tay. You just never know.
Great analysis MP
I agree completely with your e-pinion.
Well, there was the bit that you missed where I distracted him with the cuddly monkey then I said "play time's over" and I hit him in the head with the peace lily.
If there are essentially no decent guard options out there
does that make us way more likely to get outbid for MFWB?
My blogs: pakagankarachi.livejournal.com (dormant)
burmahunkalove.livejournal.com (occasional signs of life)
Is it wrong of me to think
I don’t care, I just want a big who will score consistently in the post?
by Toledo Joe on May 5, 2010 8:17 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Of that list, I’d put Felton, Lowry, MFWB, Blake, and Ridnour all in the same category — useful players for the right price, backup PGs in most situations, and starters in the perfect situation.
Which is why I’m puzzled that the only guy MFMP really advocates for is MFWB (albeit understandably, he is OUR MFWB, after all). Not a jab, just a friendly critique. I think Lowry, Blake, and Ridnour are all under-appreciated and might be attainable for less than MFWB will cost. Given the similarity of MFWB and Stuck on the court, a guy like Ridnour might be a better fit (facilitator who relies on teammates to create his shots).
This is pure epinion, but I think any PG who’s more “pure PG” is an upgrade over Stuckey given our roster. But, it’s all moot until we solidify the frontcourt anyway.
Which is why I’m puzzled that the only guy MFMP really advocates for is MFWB
Because he’s cheap, knows our playbook and doesn’t need to eat into our MLE.
"Gee'drah write a rhyme in the time he hollow out a flask - crack a Guinness stout with his teeth one time, swallowed the glass"
Well, we’re not sure how cheap he will be yet. Time will tell. And yeah, he won’t techincally eat into the MLE — but we also don’t know if Joe has the flexibility to use the full MLE either.
Time will tell, obviously.
but we also don’t know if Joe has the flexibility to use the full MLE either.
All the more reason to re-sign Bynum instead of going for a different PG.
"Gee'drah write a rhyme in the time he hollow out a flask - crack a Guinness stout with his teeth one time, swallowed the glass"
I don't disagree
But I think we’re talking past each other. If someone goes crazy and extends an offer sheet of over $4 million per annum to Bynum, I’m not sure he makes any more sense than one of those other guys at a cheaper price point.
If someone goes crazy and extends an offer sheet of over $4 million per annum to Bynum, I’m not sure he makes any more sense than one of those other guys at a cheaper price point.
Because, again, we don’t have to spend our MLE to get him. My entire point of this article is that we shouldn’t take on a free agent point guard with our MLE. Last case scenario, if all of our other holes are filled I’d like to see us try to sign Watson for part of the MLE. Otherwise, we can re-sign Bynum AND have the MLE to play with. If we sign any of the guys you mentioned, it’ll take the majority of our MLE (with the exception of blake, most likely) and we’ll have little left to spend on vet free agents to roster spots.
"Gee'drah write a rhyme in the time he hollow out a flask - crack a Guinness stout with his teeth one time, swallowed the glass"
I hear you, and I don’t disagree. The monkey wrench is something we don’t know — whether or not ownership has given the green light for Joe to use the MLE no matter what. Hypothetically, if someone extends an offer sheet to MFWB for the full MLE, do we match or not if ownership hasn’t authorized the MLE under any circumstances?
I think you just face-palmed Kwame Brown. Right here.
Don't be callin' me dog cause I want to hear you say it backwards - Tech N9ne
by MaxiellEatsLittleOnes on May 5, 2010 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions
This is why we need to TRADE for a PG
You have proven that we can’t get a good starting PG in free agency. But we can trade for one. Consider trading Rip Hamilton for Jose Calderon or Devin Harris. (One side or the other can throw in draft picks or other players to make the trade perfectly even and work under the cap).
Why would Detroit do this?
- It gives us a legit starting PG and allows Stuckey to move to starting SG (with Ben Gordon being a super-sub).
- Both Calderon and Harris are younger than Rip
- Both would give us our best pure PG since Isiah Thomas.
Why would Toronto and New Jersey do these trades?
Because Calderon and Harris meet the following criteria:
- They have contracts of similar size and length as Rip Hamilton, so teams won’t hesitate because of the “I don’t want to take on additional salary” excuse.
- Their teams are in desperate need of an upgrade at SG, which Rip would provide.
- Their teams have another option they like better at PG (Jarret Jack in Toronto, John Wall in NJ if they win the lottery).
I have part II coming on trade options
and I’ve already got a write-up on both Harris and Calderon— not to mention why trading for either player would in effect make our team worse.
"Gee'drah write a rhyme in the time he hollow out a flask - crack a Guinness stout with his teeth one time, swallowed the glass"
agreed, I don’t see how either of those players could improve the team via trade.
I don’t know why people assume that Rip holds really high value in the league, even when he was at his peak in 05-06, I doubt he was considered at top 5 shooting guard. Combine his age and his recent troubles, you’d probably have to send over a draft pick or Daye in order to trade him. And even still, I’d be shocked if you get anything special in return. Unless if Joe can hoodwink Jordan again and somehow get us either Augustin or Wallace, I don’t think we’d get our money’s worth.
Honestly, as it is, our best option is to target bigs. Bigs have a premium in this league, which is why I did that whole more second round picks write up. If this team can stockpile 3 or 4 solid rotation bigs via draft, trade or free agency, then we have some bargaining chips. Even Jason Maxiell holds trade value because he only makes $5 mil a year and is a great energy big.
As it stands, our best trading chip is Ben Wallace. But unless if we get a homerun in return and Big Ben is okay with it, I’d try to avoid that option at all costs.
Also keep in mind that Stuckey does hold a lot of trade value himself. I don’t think he’s a starting caliber point guard, but he’s flourished coming off the bench. I’m sure a lot of teams could use him as a 6th man; a dominant guard who can get to the rim at will and set up his teammates here and there. He just doesn’t seem to do as well when he’s got a side role of setup man. Just think about when he won player of the week, not only did his points and fg% go up, but so did his assists. He does have good court vision, it just seems that he doesn’t know how to be a full time setup man (or perhaps doesn’t like that idea). If you give him the ball and a bunch of side players and just let him run, he becomes a star player. But since you can’t afford to do that with him as a starter, coming off the bench logically would be the best place for him. Kinda ironic if that happens, we paid Gordon $11 mil/year to deal with coming off the bench and help Stuckey, but now the roles could be reversed.
by bearded thundar on May 5, 2010 10:06 AM EDT up reply actions
Das BOOOOOOOOOOOOT!
Is the best part of Beerfest, which I suppose is loosely based off German culture
by bearded thundar on May 6, 2010 9:12 AM EDT up reply actions
Simpsons Trivia
Q: What movie was part of the welcome basket given to the Powers family (the Simpsons’s neighbors)?
A: A porno called “Das Butt.”
just EPINION
by real Rob G on May 6, 2010 9:57 AM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
I want you to be my friend!
My blogs: pakagankarachi.livejournal.com (dormant)
burmahunkalove.livejournal.com (occasional signs of life)
by MrHappyMushroom on May 7, 2010 4:21 AM EDT up reply actions
As it stands, our best trading chip is Ben Wallace. But unless if we get a homerun in return and Big Ben is okay with it, I’d try to avoid that option at all costs.
Ben Wallace doesn’t play for us (well, technically, not until after July 1st), so we can’t really keep calling him our trade chip. He’s (soon to be) a free agent.
Also keep in mind that Stuckey does hold a lot of trade value himself.
I can see a package containing any or all of Stuckey, Tay, and Wilcox getting us something useful.
Hopefully Wallace re-signs.
…and the idea we would trade him is blood curdling to me, anything short of a McDyess to Denver scenario, with a deal already worked out prior, is not an option.
"We’re going to be in bed with each other. It’s like a marriage." - Stephon Marbury, on his relationship with Jamal Crawford.
People threw nearly everything + the kitchen sink at me the first time I said this...
But I’m a glutton for punishment so I’ll say it again. If trading Ben Wallace achieves 1 or both of the 2 following scenarios then it would be the greatest gift we could give him and the best thing he could give Detroit. I firmly believe that regardless of whether we traded Ben or not, he’ll end up with ties to Detroit and hopefully a coaching position of some kind. If a Ben Wallace trade results in:
1) significant future financial flexibility and/or
2) significant future talent through draft picks or cheap promising rookie contracts
Then I say send him off with the promise that he has a place on the bench or in the front office when he retires. Give him the gift of being on a potential contender for his last season and playing playoff basketball…lets not be selifsh and retain his playing abilities at the end of a failed season…
Again, I would only consider this if next season nets the same result as we saw this season.
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
correct
But be honest, you know that Big Ben is coming back. If he wasn’t, they wouldn’t have shut him down towards the end of the season, with the reasoning of conserving his knees
by bearded thundar on May 5, 2010 5:53 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't know that, my friend.
I didn’t know Chauncey’s ass was grass, and I didn’t know Dumars was going to fire Saunders and promote Curry. Joe Bananas can really surprise us sometimes.
However putting Wallace into the garage like that is an excellent indicator that they see him back in Detroit next season. You know me, man. Him & Jerebko are the best thing we got going right now.
"Someday pray that he will grow a farm barn full, Recent research shows its not so darn harmful"
That's the ticket
Bearded thunder is on point.I would love to see Stuckey come off the bench and take the scoring load for the second unit with CV as our 2nd big could be a good combo. Our back court would be pretty short if we start BG and MFWB but if we push the ball more it could work. And MFWB can push the tempo pretty well.
My style when I'm manic is straight automatic , Pistons fanatic, love to ball so I'm at it! My style when depressed is readdressing the regress , while everyone today is steady praying for some recess !
Need to trade RIP
He just takes too many shots for anyone else to get going and he is not the same player he use to be. This isn’t just due to the departure of Billups, he has significantly slowed and doesn’t run off screens like he use to. So putting him in a trade for a PG would be okay but for immediate frontcourt help would be great, the bigger need.
I still like the option of starting Ben G alongside Stuckey if our frontcout were to improve. That while keeping Bynamite coming in for a spark.
Calderon can’t run a fast break, nor can he play defence. I don’t mind Harris, but he doesn’t seem like an upgrade. I would sell the farm to get CP3, but do the Pistons have enough to trade for him? Would CP3 be willing to play in Detroit after the season they have had? Chances slim. If it happened I would have a fork in my hand shoved into an electrical outlet… electrified!
+100 on front court help first.
McCourty will do. If the Packers don't take him first... they would.
Calderon or Harris aren't a home run
But they are both a crystal clear upgrade over RIP: just as good or better players (at least on offense), play a position we need, younger, and paid less.
If we can get major front court help for Rip instead, I agree we should do that. I’m just thinking that Calderon and Harris might be more available than the mythical “big man who can score consistently in the post who the pistons can somehow get right now.”
Realistically, I say trade Rip for a starting PG, and address the front court in the draft and with the MLE.
read what I said
There’s no sense in trading Rip right now, not unless if you are purely doing it with addition by subtraction in mind.
CP3 isn’t worth the cost, I’d much rather target Collison. You aren’t getting nearly as good of a player, but be realistic, a team of just Chris and bunch of d-leaguers is by far worse than a team lead by Collison and perhaps Rip, that likely would include Okafor. NO’s owner has decided to sell, it would probably be a requirement to take on Okafor’s salary if we wanted Darren in the first place.
by bearded thundar on May 5, 2010 5:57 PM EDT up reply actions
A healthy CP3
Can take a team to the playoffs all by himself. That would be an upgrade. Stuckey or Gordon could be part of the deal to make way. Collison can’t spell CP3.
RIP is NOT the player he use to be. Okafor is okay, but CP3 could be paired with someone through trade or a year improved Jerebko that would suffice. CP3 would not be playing with D-leaguers, he would make everyone around him better. See how he made Tyson Chandler look.
McCourty will do. If the Packers don't take him first... they would.
welcome to stats
you clearly didn’t read what I said.
RIP is NOT the player he use to be.
I have now said this several times, you can’t trade Rip. You’re going to get less value in return, and there’s no way that NO would swap CP3 for Gordon and Stuckey. If they trade Paul, it’s gotta be for someone of Wade’s caliber because of how important he is to their fanbase, especially a franchise that is losing a lot of money. Gordon is overpaid, they’d be selling $1.5 on the dollar for only $.75 on the dollar, now way that happens. The only time you short sell is if you are trying to get rid of someone (AKA Rip’s current status). Get over it, you’re not getting Chris Paul.
The only possible way to keep the Hornet’s GM on the phone would be to offer Stuckey, Gordon, Daye and 2 future picks and take on a bad salary in return, but then you’re strapping yourself in the future just as much as you’re gaining.
Also I don’t think you know much about Collison; he’s much closer to CP3 than you think.
Collison can’t spell CP3.
He not only had a franchise rookie record of 18 assists (which means it had to be more than Paul’s rookie high), but also took over as team leader.
Look at these numbers, as a starting guard, he averaged a monster 19 and 9 on 49% shooting (43% from 3).
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/splits?playerId=3973
That’s also better than Paul’s rookie numbers – they aren’t even close.
Okafor is okay, but CP3 could be paired with someone through trade or a year improved Jerebko that would suffice. CP3 would not be playing with D-leaguers, he would make everyone around him better. See how he made Tyson Chandler look.
Once again, you show a bit of ignorance. Okafor is one of the best true centers in the game. When he was completely healthy, he put up 15, 11 and 2. Just try to name 3 other centers that can do that not named Dwight Howard, and no, Amare Stoudemire doesn’t count. You’re basically looking at Duncan, Kaman and Yao – 2 of whom are weak defenders and injury prone, thus not very reliable. Also Tyson Chandler was healthy in his all star years, he has not been since then. There’s no real magic behind that. Even still, he was known for defence and rebounding, not scoring, 2 categories CP3 has little influence on beyond perhaps leadership. Lastly you seem to have conveniently forgotten a person named David West. West quietly had a very good year this year with Collison at point, which shows that he is not just a product of Paul.
Hands down, I’d much rather trade Collison – and not coincidently, that’s not even close. With the situation that NO has, you’d get Collison at a (relatively) cheap rate where as you’d have to overpay for Paul simply because of the superstar name tag. Who’s to say that Darren won’t be just as good as CP in the regular season anyways? Paul is one of the greatest players ever in the playoffs, but the in the regular season, I think his numbers within reach.
by bearded thundar on May 5, 2010 8:08 PM EDT up reply actions
I have stated many times
That I don’t think its likely the Pistons would get CP3. They would have to sell the farm to do so. That would involve multiple players and their high first round draft pick this year. Even then its not likely. I would do it in a hearbeat if the Pistons got lucky and thats what it took.
I meant no ignorance to Okafor, he is damm good. I’m thinking it would be almost impossible to think the Pistons could get Collison and Okafor. Yeah sure just as impossible as it would be to get CP3. I just said if the Hornets were interested I would do whatever it took to get CP3.
CP3 is, when healthy, a top 3 PG in the league. Maybe even #1. Just because Collison stepped in for a stretch and performed admirably doesn’t mean he would be as good as CP3 over the course of an entire season. That has to be earned over time. Collison had good #s and did improve as the season went on, but to say he could what CP3 does now is something that has to be earned. Not to mention that CP3 is a better defender. How many people would then want to sign with Detroit if they got CP3? A lot more than Collison would draw. How many PGs can even come close to CP3? D.Will and thats about it.
Covenietly forgetting West please. There is likely to be at least one other good player to play beside. He is good, but who else they got? Not much. I never said West was a product of CP3. Something YOU conveniently assumed!
Its really annoying when someone quotes you 3 times just to bash rather than responding to the whole post. Quoting once sure, but take it easy Mr. quote and bash.
McCourty will do. If the Packers don't take him first... they would.
Also
CP3 was averaging almost 11apg to 2.5topg. Saying thats within reach is a stretch. It has to be done over the course of an entire season. I don’t care about that potential, they have to do it. Nobody other than D.Will even comes close.
McCourty will do. If the Packers don't take him first... they would.
Quoting once sure, but take it easy Mr. quote and bash.
I’m fairly certain you are new, so I’ll just inform you that’s how it works around here. There’d be no point in quoting the whole post when I’ve already responded it, instead what people generally do is specify areas that they want to point out. Also I may decide to keep the nickname, Mr. quote and bash. Quite the oxymoron there, look at some of the work I’ve put up. I’ve been Mr. Optimistic here, but alas I guess you can’t avoid offending people in these uber politically correct days.
Keep in mind that Paul only averaged 16 and 7 as a rookie, which was my point. Collison started about 40 games, that’s long enough to not deem the stats a fluke. Would he keep them up over a whole season? That has yet to be determined, but I said that Paul’s regular season numbers are within reach. Should Collison improve by his 5th year (which all legit nba players do), I see no reason why 20 and 10 is out of the question.
Regardless, I never said that Collison is as good of a player. I only said that he could recreate some of the statistics and also would be a much cheaper option.
Covenietly forgetting West please. There is likely to be at least one other good player to play beside. He is good, but who else they got? Not much. I never said West was a product of CP3. Something YOU conveniently assumed!
I never assumed anything, per your verbatim:
CP3 would not be playing with D-leaguers, he would make everyone around him better.
You called his team d-leaguers, not me.
Take of this what you will. I didn’t mean to insult you, but rather teach you. But bear in mind that I am on of the easier going people here, I’m sure some others wouldn’t hesitate to backlash with the way you responded.
by bearded thundar on May 5, 2010 9:41 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm not new and I know how it works around here.
I just decide not to multiple quote and comment. Thats your style, fine. Its just not mine.
As for the d-leaguers comment… You first stated, “Chris and a bunch of D-leaguers is by far worse than a team led by Collison and Rip”. I never called his(CP3’s) team D-leaguers. Ah, just a little miscommunication there I guess. I just think Rip isn’t anywhere close to what he use to be.
I am quite knowledgeable and do not need you as my teacher. We can share, respectfully, difference of opionions, but how would you like it if I said I was trying to teach you something? Not much I’m guessing. I feel the same. I have delt with much worse backlash, but nothing I couldn’t handle.
You respond saying I show ignorance, so I won’t hesitate with some backlash when that is presented to me. I am by far one of the easier going people on here and want to share different opinions rather than simply knock them. I have no problem with you and if the Pistons were able to get Collison and Okafor I would be happy. I just think the chances are very slim. Admittedly so is getting Chris Paul, whom I obviously have a hard-on for. Both scenarios are pretty unrealistic, but we as Piston fans can dream.
McCourty will do. If the Packers don't take him first... they would.
I'm with Bearded Thundar
he’s not bashing you, he’s responding logically. You haven’t responded well to objective arguments in the past, and dude is bringing nothing but solid reasoning. Calling “ignorance” may be a bit unfriendly and provocative, but he has genuine, sound reasons to dispute what you’re saying.
That said, kudos for taking it in stride and not blowing up— that’s a point of character in you that I could personally learn from :)
"Gee'drah write a rhyme in the time he hollow out a flask - crack a Guinness stout with his teeth one time, swallowed the glass"
I have responded just fine to objectivity.
I just don’t prefer to tell people they are wrong in thier opinions. They are allowed to have them. I’ll just offer my own and respectfully disagree with them if need be. I will refuse to quote people then rebutle them. Its just not my style. It is an option so I don’t care if others do, I just don’t take that approach. To do it multiple times seems heavy as I am not a texting tuff guy.
Just bringing a little balance.
McCourty will do. If the Packers don't take him first... they would.
To do it multiple times seems heavy as I am not a texting tuff guy.
It’s a tool built into the system to encourage cleaner, more concise and readable discussions. I think it’s a pretty solid part of this site’s software.
That said, I appreciate the balance, Vikes.
"Gee'drah write a rhyme in the time he hollow out a flask - crack a Guinness stout with his teeth one time, swallowed the glass"
I'm a huge fan of quote and comment
There is a lot of fact-based analysis here, and specific responses address specific facts.
That people are offended by this style eludes my sensibilities. By my lights, if someone takes the time to address my points specifically, it means I’ve argued something worth addressing. That’s a good thing.
Of course, you may choose to engage as you wish. The strength of this blog is strong conversation that seems to appeal to a variety of viewpoints and temperaments.
For a variety of not-unrelated reasons, I have laid low in the comments since the new transition, but I am an unabashed quote and basher. I mean no offense; it just seems the easiest way to express my arguments contextually.
Quote and comment is fine but
When you do it 3 or more times in a single response it seems a bit much. If I was offended by it I wouldn’t bother with the site at all. Its fine, just some people over due it.
I have used it spairingly in the past but don’t anymore. Its a fine option when its not over done. I get out my opinion pretty clear and concise without it and at times I’ve noticed it starts arguments rather than respectfull discussions. This happens mostly when its over used(ie 3 or more times in a single response).
McCourty will do. If the Packers don't take him first... they would.
Honestly I think you’re reading too much into the whole quote thing. Once again, quoting individual segments makes it easier to discern exactly what parts of the post one is speaking about and it would be completely redundant to quote the entire thing.
It’s like Kevin said, people shouldn’t be offended by it; it seems that these days everything is so politically correct that when some is forthcoming, it appears as insulting.
by bearded thundar on May 6, 2010 9:46 AM EDT up reply actions
Maybe reading into it too much
I’m not easily insulted or offended and am not in this case.
Quote and disagree(sometimes bash) multiple times seems to be over done more on this site than any of the other SB Nation sites I am a part of. I’m just use to one quote then discuss. I guess I’ll just have to get use to it over here at DBB, because for the most part I do enjoy the chats here.
It will be a lot better when the Pistons are competive again and we have more good things to discuss. Memories from previous seasons will have to get me by for know.
McCourty will do. If the Packers don't take him first... they would.
Quote and disagree(sometimes bash) multiple times seems to be over done more on this site than any of the other SB Nation sites I am a part of. I’m just use to one quote then discuss.
That’s because, and I’m 1000% serious, we’re the smartest sports blog on the intarwebs.
"Gee'drah write a rhyme in the time he hollow out a flask - crack a Guinness stout with his teeth one time, swallowed the glass"
To reply to your aggresive objectivity, I guess I’m going to have to quote more.
By the way I do respond well to objectivity its just not in the fashon you are used to. I don’t just come flat out and say your wrong, but simply point out a different opinion.
McCourty will do. If the Packers don't take him first... they would.
On the lighter side...
I thought an “oxymoron” was an idiot with zits.
McCourty will do. If the Packers don't take him first... they would.
Responding to the first post in the conversation
So this is not really directed at you or Mr. Quote and Smash but the one thing I didn’t see either of you mention is the financial implications involved with New Orleans.
They are a team that is losing money hand over fist and while CP3 brings some fans to games, he’s not filling the seats necessary for a team to be successful in NO. So NO has two options, bring in the right people to build a team around CP3 (which they’ve now tried to do 2 years in a row) or reduce the overall cost of the team they’re putting on the court. The only way to reduce their payroll is to trade either CP3 or Emeka or both. If they really think that Collison is a point guard of the future than they could easily trade CP3 away for plenty of value and build around an incredibly cheap but very valuable rookie contract point guard in Collison. So ultimately our ability to get CP3 is contingent on NO’s perceived value of Collison. If they think Collison can fill CP3’s shoes then they’ll move CP3 for the best offer they can get…
So Bearded, while Collison may be who we really want, the cheapness of his contract combined with the level of play he showed during the 40 games this year probably makes him more valuable to NO than the seats that CP3 currently fills.
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
I think BT should now be
MFQnB
"Gee'drah write a rhyme in the time he hollow out a flask - crack a Guinness stout with his teeth one time, swallowed the glass"
by Mike Payne on May 6, 2010 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
haha...
definitely.
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
Look forward to it
Got a link to your write-ups on Harris and Calderon (and why what I’ve proposed won’t help)? Couldn’t find it searching for it for 30 seconds (sue me I’m lazy)
Here’s a comparison of Harris, Hamilton, and Calderon last year:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/tiny.cgi?id=qeRgJ
Calderon is clearly a better player (while also being younger and lower paid), and Harris had a VERY similar year to Hamilton last year but is younger, paid less, and can play PG (which Stuckey can’t).
I haven't published it yet
it’s coming this weekend. I wanted to break this up into parts. First, the possible free agents, next the possible trade options.
"Gee'drah write a rhyme in the time he hollow out a flask - crack a Guinness stout with his teeth one time, swallowed the glass"
Great
Sounds great. A systematic treatment of the options (like this article) is always appreciated.
thanks man
I figure we’ve got six months to kill, so why leave any stone unturned? :)
"Gee'drah write a rhyme in the time he hollow out a flask - crack a Guinness stout with his teeth one time, swallowed the glass"
Love the article
Nice work
My style when I'm manic is straight automatic , Pistons fanatic, love to ball so I'm at it! My style when depressed is readdressing the regress , while everyone today is steady praying for some recess !
Calderon
put up some pretty darn good numbers. 10.3 ppg, 5.9 asg, 2.1 rpb, and only 1.5 tpg while shooting 48% from the field and 40% from three is solid. Then consider he did that in less than 27 mpg!
Now, I know I kept hearing how Toronto was sick of Calderon but I can’t remember why. Cleary, based on his numbers, his defense must be quite horrific if he’s on the outs. I’ve barely seen him play, so I don’t know.
ZERO defense
poor consistency, uninspired play.
"Gee'drah write a rhyme in the time he hollow out a flask - crack a Guinness stout with his teeth one time, swallowed the glass"
Calderon is pretty much the perfect example of how numbers can lie. Seriously, watching that guy play is like watching a highschooler get beat up on by a college player. He has ZERO defense. Like, none. He has no quickness whatsoever, and his jumper is Stuckey-esque. Half the time he’s scared to shoot, anyways. And he gets injured a lot.
by garrettelliott on May 5, 2010 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Don’t make the mounties angry! You wouldn’t like them when they’re angry.
by garrettelliott on May 5, 2010 5:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Dammit, I'm Canadian
But as for that Mountie… sad but true. Thats about as tough as they get. Lumberjacks a different story. Ah I’m 5 minutes from Detroit though so I have American influence written all over me.
McCourty will do. If the Packers don't take him first... they would.
My Cousin grew up in Windsor
and most of the guys he knew were a bunch of wanna be tough guys. But when it came down to a bar fight they all bitched up . So I stuck up for them and fought 3 guys by myself. They still think I am crazy. I did pretty good . Thank God. I know they’re are some hard ass Canadians but that’s just one thing that did not leave a very good impression on me. ’’Ah’’ lol I couldn’t resist.
My style when I'm manic is straight automatic , Pistons fanatic, love to ball so I'm at it! My style when depressed is readdressing the regress , while everyone today is steady praying for some recess !
I’m pretty sure Betty White could take me in a fight.
by garrettelliott on May 6, 2010 7:13 PM EDT up reply actions
I here she trained Chuck Lidell
I wouldn’t mess with her.
My style when I'm manic is straight automatic , Pistons fanatic, love to ball so I'm at it! My style when depressed is readdressing the regress , while everyone today is steady praying for some recess !
Did you see the video on you Tube of
Betty White and Bea Arthur fueding in the Golden Girl era. Lol, if anyone finds a good one let me know.
Ah I think White would win for St. Olaf.
McCourty will do. If the Packers don't take him first... they would.
Ah
There is a bunch of wanna be tough guys everywhere. Windsor can be a slutty good time. Lots of bars packed together downtown, 19-21 years old girls coming across the border to drink…
McCourty will do. If the Packers don't take him first... they would.
They won't let me over the border anymore
My style when I'm manic is straight automatic , Pistons fanatic, love to ball so I'm at it! My style when depressed is readdressing the regress , while everyone today is steady praying for some recess !
I got a speeding ticket for 191 KPH once
ain’t never been back since
/outlaw’d
"Someday pray that he will grow a farm barn full, Recent research shows its not so darn harmful"
Agreed
He was really, really good two years ago, but he’s lost whatever it was he had.
"Ford! You're turning into a Penguin! Stop it!"
-Arthur Dent
Shaun Livingston
Everyone knows the knee, but the guy has so much damn talent and at 6’7" he could make up for the lack in BG’s size.
If we can’t/don’t resign MFWB, AND we can get a plethera of bigs through draft/trade, THEN I would go after Livinginston for a chris wilcox contract as our backup pg.
Don't throw out sign and trade
Will Bynum turned a lot heads with that 20 assist game. A sign and trade centered around him could probably get you a first round pick on top of a legitimate player
by bearded thundar on May 5, 2010 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Irrevelant but..
from LebronsElbow:
“Delonte West brought a guitar case to practice today. I almost crapped myself until he opened it and it was filled Gummie Bears.”
R.I.P. GURU
Good to see you SCNTFC
"We’re going to be in bed with each other. It’s like a marriage." - Stephon Marbury, on his relationship with Jamal Crawford.
i used to rock this joint
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPHiz_9Prn0
I have an absolutely mint version of the album on vinyl that I found in ’99. Best album cover ever?
"Gee'drah write a rhyme in the time he hollow out a flask - crack a Guinness stout with his teeth one time, swallowed the glass"
The *Actual* Best Album Cover Ever
You weren’t too far off though MFMPZY
"We’re going to be in bed with each other. It’s like a marriage." - Stephon Marbury, on his relationship with Jamal Crawford.
I have that one too, actually :)
You are right though, I concede.
"Gee'drah write a rhyme in the time he hollow out a flask - crack a Guinness stout with his teeth one time, swallowed the glass"
They're great, MFPS
but mira, that chica is straight fuego. I’d rob the president for her hand in marriage
"Someday pray that he will grow a farm barn full, Recent research shows its not so darn harmful"
You seriously have Sergio Rodriguez, Foye, and Farmar in tier 1 over Kyle Lowry
Lowry is an excellent defender, draws fouls, and rebounds/passes better than Stuck. I could honestly see him starting somewhere.
That’s about my only qualm with your analysis. I love CJ Watson. Someone is going to steal him (us, hopefully?). He was really productive on a completely dysfunctional team that couldn’t find him enough minutes. He’ll flourish elsewhere. Oh, and he dropped 40 points, 7 rebounds, 6 assists, and 2 steals one game this year (On Beno Udrih, admittedly).
"Ford! You're turning into a Penguin! Stop it!"
-Arthur Dent
this list
Has more to do with who we’re going to be hearing about all summer long than it does talent. It is not a ranking of talent, as explained “in no particular order”. But as for why Lowry isn’t in the first part of my list, I don’t think we’ll hear too much about him in a Pistons uniform thanks to the fact that a) he shot less than 40% this year, b) he’s terrible from 3-point range and c) he’s 6’0" and thereby can’t switch off on 2-guards when Gordon is having trouble defensively. He doesn’t fit our needs, thus he doesn’t fit in the “most likely” group. No knock on his talent. (he was awesome in the Bad Boys movies though)
"Gee'drah write a rhyme in the time he hollow out a flask - crack a Guinness stout with his teeth one time, swallowed the glass"
C.J. Watson
Mike Payne loves Golden State backups. See Morrow, Anthony and Azubuike, Kelenna.
Not that I disagree, of course.
The Golden State Warriors: A Clusterfuck Love Story
(seriously, the unused talent on that roster in azubuike, morrow, watson, randolph and to some extent biedrins— should just be shipped off to construct a new team. they’d beat down the warriors on the regular. I have the perfect team name: the Seattle Squires. Not yet Warriors, but will be better)
"Gee'drah write a rhyme in the time he hollow out a flask - crack a Guinness stout with his teeth one time, swallowed the glass"
I'd be lying
if I didn’t have to double-check before posting it :)
Thanks MFRG!
"Gee'drah write a rhyme in the time he hollow out a flask - crack a Guinness stout with his teeth one time, swallowed the glass"
Would really like to see us get Watson. Not sure if Golden State will let him walk, though. They have a pretty nice rotation at the 1 going with him, Curry, and Ellis. One has to assume that they will get rid of one of them, though.
I wouldn't worry about that
Even as bad as the Clippers have been, people seem more willing to go there than GS. Besides a lot of their problems have just been sheer bad luck, a lot of (thought to be) sure fire drafts have mysteriously blown their knees. Dyess and Griffin are 2 off the top of my mind.
GS has just about the most random and least logical management in the NBA. If Dumars actually put some effort towards making a deal, he’d probably get Watson for some belly button link and 10 VIP Oprah passes :).
by bearded thundar on May 5, 2010 8:13 PM EDT up reply actions
*nooooooezz
I made an error.
I meant to say belly button lint, not link. Although if you think about it, I suppose Joe could always take Chris Mullin to get it pierced and then getting a tattoo that reads “sexy back” across their butts
such as
by bearded thundar on May 5, 2010 8:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Or a smoked sausage link made out of ground belly button
"Someday pray that he will grow a farm barn full, Recent research shows its not so darn harmful"
only if it comes with Frank's Red Hot
I put that shit on everything!
by bearded thundar on May 5, 2010 8:21 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
rec'd for 97.1 advertising reference
"Someday pray that he will grow a farm barn full, Recent research shows its not so darn harmful"
Excellent work MFMP!
Great analysis and breakdown. Couple (loooong) thoughts:
1) IME, the two players who would be upgrades or better fits on the roster than MFWB are Lowry (similar player, but Lowry is younger, and more efficient because of a proven ability to draw fouls) and Ridnour (better 3 point shooter). But it’s much more important to deal with the frontcourt, so no significant resources should be spent on upgrading the backcourt until the PF/C rotation is solidified.
2) That said, I think there are some random low budget additions that could be surprisingly good. Looking at Stuck’s stats (both college and pro), I definitely prefer him at PG. His scoring efficiency sucks, and the only thing we can do is hope it improves. But as a PG he does bring above average secondary skills, if he sharply reduces his FGA’s, his value will rise quite a bit.
So Stuckey clearly needs a backcourt partner who can carry the offense, which makes Ben Gordon seems like a solid pairing. Here’s the problem; IME, the ideal combo with Stuckey would be a Ginobli-type SG can shoot 3’s, be a good rebounder for a SG, be able to handle the ball and create offense from pick and rolls, and be an above average passer. Gordon has the deep shooting ability, but he’s not capable of helping Stuckey create offense for his teammates, and Gordon’s crappy secondary stats (especially rebounding) nullify the advantage of having Stuckey at PG.
3) So here’s a few guys who can probably be picked up off the scrap heap that I think fit that criteria:
Reggie Williams: Great, efficient, versatile scorer. Solid A/TO ratio for high usage player. Long wingspan helps make him above average rebounder. Only problem is GSW took a flier and signed him to the league minimum for next season, but it seems like we could get him for very little.
Nick Calathes: Great 3 point shooter, surprisingly good finisher around the basket, passes like a PG, good size and rebounding ability. I watched him play several times at Florida, and always came away impressed. Currently Calathes is property of the TWolves, so if a deal ends up going down with them, I would love to have his rights thrown in (possibly even more than I want Sessions).
Those two are by far my favorites, but here’s a pair of super-sleepers who I like for different reasons:
Lee Cummard: Basically Mike Miller-lite. Tall wing with an amazing jumper, and oddly above average passing ability (an A/TO ratio of over 2 his senior year in college). The main wart on his resume is that he’s already 25, but I’d rather have him on the end of the bench than Chucky. He’d be a great match offensively with Stuckey.
Mark Tyndale The opposite of Cummard. Tyndale would be an absolutely ideal match with Stuckey defensively. He’s uniquely suited to locking down both PG’s and SG’s- 6’3" with an almost 7’ wingspan, he’s agile enough to chase around little guys, and long enough to bother shooters. Hard-working, Piston-DNA type of player. He’d be an inexpensive, zero-risk acquisition, and if he improves his shooting could be an excellent all around player.
by Gabe F-B on May 5, 2010 9:28 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
awesome additions, MFG
Great suggestions, I’d only heard of Calathes and not the other fellows. I think we should only throw minimum contracts at a grip of players after our big moves are made— other than that, someone like Watson et. al. Nice additions Gabe.
"Gee'drah write a rhyme in the time he hollow out a flask - crack a Guinness stout with his teeth one time, swallowed the glass"
Keith Langlois Approves MP's Message
Looks like Keith likes Minny as a trade partner as well. From today’s Mailbag:
Vera (Mason, Ohio): I have an intriguing trade scenario: Tayshaun Prince and our first pick (assuming the Pistons stay in the 7-9 range) for Al Jefferson and Minnesota’s 16th pick. Your thoughts?
Langlois: That 16th pick was originally Charlotte’s, which sent it to Denver in 2008 for the rights to Alexis Ajinca, Denver sending it along to Minnesota in 2009 for the rights to Ty Lawson. The Timberwolves have three first-rounders this year – 2, 16 and 23. I think there’s a strong likelihood that Minnesota deals one of Jefferson or Kevin Love this summer. And Prince would hold appeal because of Minnesota’s lack of talent or depth on the wing, though Corey Brewer showed sparks last season. Your proposal is certainly one that both teams would at least examine from every angle before rejecting or deciding to proceed. Those three draft picks give Minnesota a lot of ammunition. They might try to bundle 16 and 23 to move up – though it wouldn’t get them to No. 7, I don’t suspect – and use Jefferson (or Love) for another purpose in trade. It’s also possible the Pistons would only be interested in that trade once they see who’s available should they stay at 7 or get bumped one spot.
So DBB is now officially on the same wavelength as Langlois. First surefire sign of the Apocalypse?
Wake up Joe, make a good trade
So I can start sucking on your tit again.
McCourty will do. If the Packers don't take him first... they would.
My take on PGs in this league
So MP did an amazing job and it forced me (totally against my will) to do some basic data analysis/ranking of guards in this league similar to what I did with Maxiell to show that his output was not on par with his paycheck (of course soon after making that point, he proved us all wrong and started to improve his output). So here goes:
I took per 36 minute ratings for guards playing at least 10 minutes and under the height of 6’6" to get a list of potential competitors at this position. I then independently ranked their assists, turnovers, points, assist to turnover ratio, FT%, 3P%, FG% and rebounds on a per 36 basis to come up with an evenly weighted (that is to say that every statistical category is weighted the same) ranking. Out of 165 total guards (includes many SGs), Stuckey ranks 65th out of that group but keep in mind that there are plenty of guards in this group.
To be honest, this analysis resulted in a lot of surprises. While Chris Paul is ranked the highest, Luke Ridnour is actually #2 when looking at per 36 minutes. Furthermore, Ramon Sessions (115), Tony Parker (70), Monta Ellis (104), and Devin Harris (78) all fall below Stuckey in ranking.
Guards that fall above Stuckey that I think would be intriguing additions through trade:
- Jose Calderon (9)
- Beno Udrih (11)
- Lou Williams (17)
- Raymond Felton (23)
- Rodrigue Beaubois (28)
- Jose Barea (36)
I know a few of you have already expressed your lack of interest in Felton and Calderon…Beaubois is likely untouchable since he’s hoping to be Kidd’s replacement and Barea and Udrih I don’t know too much about. I think the most intriguing for me would be Lou Williams from Philly…his most glaring weaknesses are rebounds and 3P% but he’s still shooting 34% from beyond the arc which for the Pistons is almost lights out.
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
Nice work MFTB
That’s a hell of a lot of work! I’m concerned, however, that by nature it is not demonstrative of how we should think about our point guard targets. Your list is basically a ranking of “the most balanced point guards”, but “balance” might not be what we’re aiming for.
Case and point, Jose Calderon. When it comes to balance, few are more well-rounded than Calderon on his career. He’s a true jack-of-all-trades, but a master of none. He’s got a great a/t ratio, he’s a great free throw shooter, a good passer and he shoots accurately from the field. He’ll also rarely, if ever lead your team in scoring— he scored more than 20 points just four times this season (10 ppg from pretty much any starter in the league not named Ben Wallace is unacceptable).
And the biggest issue with Calderon is that he’ll give you those 10 points a game, then give up 20 on the other end. He is shit shit shit on D, that nearly unquantifiable failure that any list we build won’t properly tally.
Calderon is precisely balanced— to a fault. This game is won and lost based on match-ups, and Calderon’s balance makes him a match-up dream for his competition every night of the week. Players that dominate in one area and are so-so in another generally lead to match-up advantages, unless your name is Chris Paul of course.
More on this to come in the trade-related installment of “Fuckey, we’re Stuck with Stuckey”
"Gee'drah write a rhyme in the time he hollow out a flask - crack a Guinness stout with his teeth one time, swallowed the glass"
Oh totally...
In fact I was most concerned with the fact that a guard like Tony Parker would end up ranked lower than Stuckey while a guard like Ridnour is in the top 5. I think pulling on a per 36 favors historically backup PGs in easy to run systems.
The biggest fault with this type of analysis is 1) the assumption that all attributes are weighted equally and 2) the lack of defensive metrics to provide a more well-rounded analysis.
Having said that, I stand by my previous post in that Lou Williams is a PG to watch. If it weren’t for the broken jaw and having to play with AI 2.0 (bigger, stronger, still a ballhog), I think he could definitely be a feasible solution to our starting PG woes. Problem is, Philly values him highly and looking at our rosters there isn’t a realistic trade scenario that comes up.
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
I'd like to see on that trade post:
Mario Chalmers
DJ Augustin
Sessions (But no way in hell you’d leave him off that column…)
I like Chalmers too
It’s moves like taking Walter Sharpe over Chalmers that make me question whether Jod has lost it. I think the Pistons had such a static roster for so long that Dumars started to look to the draft for reclamation projects, not really understanding that the draft is for new talent and there is nothing wrong with getting ready to play contributers.
Dumars should return to getting reclamation vets and just getting solid if unspectacular players in the draft.
dude, shinons
I honestly have been just seconds away from posting a “Where The Hell Is Shinons?” post. So honestly, where the hell have you been man? Shit just ain’t the same without you!
"Gee'drah write a rhyme in the time he hollow out a flask - crack a Guinness stout with his teeth one time, swallowed the glass"
That's a sad state of affairs right theres
"Someday pray that he will grow a farm barn full, Recent research shows its not so darn harmful"
by Skylar on May 7, 2010 9:44 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
No doubt
During a season like this? Talk about kicking a fella while he’s down. I’ve actually had to do work…shudders…
well, having you back
makes me happy in my pants, Shinons. DBB shall MFing celebrate!
"Gee'drah write a rhyme in the time he hollow out a flask - crack a Guinness stout with his teeth one time, swallowed the glass"
It's an MFing celebration bitches
"Someday pray that he will grow a farm barn full, Recent research shows its not so darn harmful"
by Skylar on May 7, 2010 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Good to be back...
Did I miss anything? We’re good again now, right?
by Shinons on May 7, 2010 7:58 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Geeky Fanboy Moment
So today I submitted a question via the Pistons Mailbag. I read that every week, but I’ve never submitted a question. To my surprise, Keith actually emailed me directly after I submitted the question, and we had a neat email exchange that ended with him extending an invitation to connect the next time I’m at the Palace.
Keith takes a lot of heat around here. I’ve piled my fair share of criticism on him, anyway. I really don’t agree with Keith on player evaluation, and I’ve said as much, often.
But for whatever reason, it was really cool as a fan of the Pistons to have someone from the organization reach out to me (and recognize my name as a blog commenter, no less!) and offer to connect at a game, in-person.
/youalljustgotfanboi’d
same here
i’ve never thought him a bad guy. i had an email exchange with him also a couple years back from a submission to mailbag about how i can get back to basketball after breaking my heel. he’s a nice guy beyond his incentive to sell the pistons(bad or not bad).
by Roll The Dyess on May 6, 2010 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Cool story! Did you get the scoop on whether he’s coachDP or not?
by garrettelliott on May 6, 2010 7:15 PM EDT up reply actions
I always thought that was Curry
At least it seemed logical at the time, since I first started lurking in the bebounds era. With that in mind, the random caps made a lot more sense
by bearded thundar on May 6, 2010 8:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Keith takes a lot of heat around here. I’ve piled my fair share of criticism on him, anyway. I really don’t agree with Keith on player evaluation, and I’ve said as much, often.
My knocks on Langlois have less to do with Langlois than they do about the job in general. If he wrote for an independent pub, like the Freep or even ESPN, I’d probably enjoy most of his writing but, like Gulks, disagree with much of his player evaluation.
It’s not really journalism when you’re paid to write about your employer. It’s a public relations job. While he does a good job of what he does, it’s unnerving to read the apologism, booster articles and, while no fault of Keith, insight into the mind of a GM who is clearly not who he used to be. Swap out Keith Langlois with any other journalist, the frustrations will be on their shoulders instead.
I bet, at times, it’s frustrating for Keith too.
"Gee'drah write a rhyme in the time he hollow out a flask - crack a Guinness stout with his teeth one time, swallowed the glass"
Great point, Mike. I agree, and I bet you’re right on that last point as well. I could never be in PR.
hey listen here gulker
Kriz is in PR, and she seems to do okay
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83nbGFRvseo
"Someday pray that he will grow a farm barn full, Recent research shows its not so darn harmful"
by Skylar on May 7, 2010 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I'll take his job
My unemployment is running out. lol
My style when I'm manic is straight automatic , Pistons fanatic, love to ball so I'm at it! My style when depressed is readdressing the regress , while everyone today is steady praying for some recess !
Jerreko, Prince, Rip and Stuckey
won’t go anywhere. They need to clear alot of cap you got major FA this year Bosh and Boozer are two names that jump out at you, plus you got James and Wade another two names that jump out at you.
SmittyJ on the checkin
that’s my homie from the Lionsblog
"Someday pray that he will grow a farm barn full, Recent research shows its not so darn harmful"
If we don't move Prince or Rip
then we’re not clearing cap space…at least with the current JoD in charge. The GM formerly known as Joe DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO-MARS would have already had a Ben Gordon and CV31 for Dwight Howard and Jameer Nelson trade all lined up.
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
I'd rather not move Prince or Rip
It’s like the last of the dynasty baby, Gordon and Villianova have to be on the chopping board first. We already fucked up and got rid of Billups for a busted ass Iverson who use to be the man, lets not foul up again by shipping Prince off. I think Boozer would be the answer for our bigs at any rate we should wait until after the lottery to see where we will be selecting. The odds of us landing in the top 5 are good, would love to add Wall or Cousins, in my opinion much rather have Walls
I agree, I'd much rather move Ben Gordon and CV
but neither one of those guys is getting moved. 4 years left on what are currently considered grossly over-priced contracts? We’d be lucky to get Keith Van Horn and a 2nd rounder for the both of them.
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
Actually the trade that works is
Orlando gets:
Ben Gordon
CV31
Tayshaun
Detroit gets:
Dwight Howard
Jameer Nelson
Why Detroit does it: SUUUPERMAN!
Why Orlando does it: When the Magic fail to win the finals this year they’ll realize they need to build around Gortat and so in order to make room for him in the starting lineup, they need to send Howard somewhere else. Given Orlando’s affinity for trades with Detroit, this makes Detroit the most likely option. CV, Gordon, and Prince all fit into Orlando’s Tramp Ball style too.
Win-Win for both teams really.
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
by The Boourns on May 7, 2010 6:26 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
the key to making this trade work is that big z in orlando, mp and any other dbb’ers out there in florida need to place otis thorpe in some sort of manchurian candidate-like brainwashing program to ensure that he pulls this trade off.
consider it done
MFDD
"Gee'drah write a rhyme in the time he hollow out a flask - crack a Guinness stout with his teeth one time, swallowed the glass"
lol
maybe we can get their 1st round pick for 2011 out of it too?
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
no sweat
I’ll begin planting the seeds in the forum at the Orlando Sentinel.
One of my friends is a huge Magic fan and posts some for the Sentinel Magic blog. I’m sure I could just get him liquored up one night and have him post it. It will seem like an inside job.
by Big Z in Orlando on May 13, 2010 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions
damn...
missing this game :-(
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
today is the 8the anniversary of AI’s infamous “practice speech”. pour one out for the late great allen iverson.
Isn't that like
toooooooooooootally disrespectful now that he’s a drunk?
But, ok. /pours beer
just EPINION
I pour one of these cheap shits out for you Allen, son of Iver
http://youtube.com/watch?v=2F6GPYd_xNA
"Someday pray that he will grow a farm barn full, Recent research shows its not so darn harmful"
You're my hero, Professor Real Rob Gee
"Someday pray that he will grow a farm barn full, Recent research shows its not so darn harmful"
I think we should get Falton he did good…but stucky was good this past season…JUST NO MY TYPE OF PG!!….
Semir
by Semir313 on May 8, 2010 5:09 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
