The Changing of the Guards: If Not Stuckey, Then Whom? Part II
As pointed out in Part 1 of this look at the guard options around the league, it's pretty clear that this year's free agent class will not provide an upgrade to Rodney Stuckey at the point. While players like Kyle Lowry and CJ Watson still have plenty of upside, the smart money is to stick with Stuckey's rookie deal and spend when the time is right.
Should Joe Dumars spend part or all of the MLE, it should be used to address Detroit's frontcourt needs first. Thankfully, Will Bynum can be extended without spending any part of our MLE, giving him a clear advantage on where to spend on free agent guards this summer.
If free agency isn't going to give Detroit a more natural point player, that leaves the trade market and the draft. To explore the trade options going into the 2010-11 NBA season, here's part two of the "Changing of the Guards".
What Will Detroit Be Looking For In A Trade?
Assuming Detroit is looking for an upgrade at the point, the targeted player should at least be a significantly more efficient scorer and a significantly better distributor than Rodney Stuckey. Beyond those two core competencies, a 3-point shot is important, but not as necessary given that Ben Gordon will likely end up starting at shooting guard if Rip Hamilton is moved. If Gordon does start at the 2, size will also be important to allow Gordon to switch to defend a point guard when match-ups get tricky.
What Should Detroit Avoid?
Overweight contracts. The higher the price, the more likely Detroit will have to include a large contract to make the money work. All of Detroit's trade assets should first be focused on frontcourt upgrades. Unless we can net a star point guard in a trade, our assets must be focused on acquiring bigs.
Also note that this is not a list of players Detroit should target in a trade, but a more comprehensive list of players that will likely be available on the trade market this summer. If it's possible that you'll hear a player's name in trade rumors or fan trade proposals, you can expect to see them listed here.
Most Likely Available Point Guards
1. Devin Harris
Back story: Unless the May 18th draft lottery brings any surprises, it's likely that New Jersey will end up with the number one pick in the 2010 NBA Draft. Expect New Jersey to take John Wall and not look back. They're going to be a big player in this year's free agent market, already an oft-rumored destination for Lebron's Elbow or another premier player. John Wall, Brook Lopez and an impending move to Brooklyn make the Nets a top free agent destination. If the lottery balls go their way on the 18th, expect Devin Harris to be the trade-bait name of the summer.
Rationale: Upon drafting Wall and possibly signing a premier free agent, the Nets will need to focus on upgrading their wing positions with solid vets. That may put Tayshaun Prince, Richard Hamilton or Ben Gordon on their radar.
Value to Detroit: As Harris approached his peak, he looked to be a special player. In the last year, those expectations were shattered by poor shooting, more poor shooting and leadership over one of the worst teams in NBA history. Devin Harris is one of the few guards in the league to have actually shot worse than Rodney Stuckey in 2009-10, putting up 40.9% from the field and 27.6% from three. He averaged a few more assists, but that difference could be the result of having an inside dish partner in Brook Lopez. Where Harris was once a rising star, he now carries more question marks than he does advantages.
Verdict: Pass. Harris presents a downgrade in efficiency and doesn't distribute well enough to warrant taking on his remaining $27 million contract.
2. Jose Calderon
Back Story: Since it's unlikely that the Raptors will be able to re-sign their mascot, expect them to use their point guard logjam to fill some holes. Calderon or Jarrett Jack will likely wind up on the trading block this summer, and Toronto might not need frontcourt help if they can swing that rumored Bosh for Lee sign-and-trade.
Rationale: It's very unlikely that Detroit will be a trading partner with Toronto, as we have very little that they need. Yet their current 2-guards, the unbelievably-efficient Sonny Weems and the nearly-as-remarkable DeMar DeRozan, aren't three point shooters. It's possible that Toronto would consider a swap of Calderon + contract for Ben Gordon. Jarrett Jack would (rightly) move to the starting lineup and the picture might improve for our neighbors to the slightly-northwest.
Value to Detroit: Calderon is tricky-- he's a significantly more efficient shooter than Stuckey, he's a better distributor and he's got a 3-point shot. Sounds like the perfect option, right? Calderon is also an abysmal defender (which might make our backcourt the worst defensive pairing in the league), and he put up only 10 points per game this season. For a starter, that is pretty much unacceptable unless your name is Ben Wallace. Add to that the $30 million he's due for the next three years, and we'd have to throw a sizable contract to Toronto to put him in a Pistons uniform. Why not just give Luke Ridnour part of the MLE instead? They're basically the same player.
Verdict: Pass. Calderon is a prime example of why sports stats can be misleading. Fortunately, his ugly contract numbers cannot be misread.
3. Jarrett Jack
Back Story: Same as for Calderon
Rationale: If Toronto is smart, they'll trade Calderon and move Jack to the starting lineup. Is Toronto GM Bryan Colangelo smart? The media thinks so, but we're talking about a guy that just gave Hedo Turkoglu a Rashard Lewis contract. Should Toronto move Jack and his $5mil/yr. salary, we may not have an equivalent piece to trade (and they don't need Maxiell), but it could be worth exploring.
Value to Detroit: Jarrett Jack hits all of our needs: in 2009-10, he shot 48.1% from the floor, 41.2% from three, dished 5 per game in 27 minutes-- and he looks like Chauncey Billups. Win/win/win. Oh, and his contract is actually reasonable.
Verdict: If Detroit works out a nice frontcourt in the draft and a primary trade, a secondary move for Jack could be quite sensible, however unlikely.
4. Beno Udrih
Back Story: While Beno Udrih was given a nice contract (he has $21.5 million due over the next three), he's been made mostly redundant by the arrival of Tyreke Evans. With this year's draft pick and the recent addition of Carl Landry, expect Sacramento to try and move Udrih to fill other holes in their roster.
Rationale: While the Kings may keep Udrih as a slightly overpaid backup, he could net them some talent that better suits their team. The free agent market and the draft will decide how Sacramento proceeds, but he may be a prime trade piece that could help push the Kings to a playoff berth.
Value to Detroit: Udrih is a great shooter, hitting at nearly 50% this season. He does not, however, pose an upgrade in the distribution department. He actually recorded a lower assist rate than Stuckey this season.
Verdict: Pass. While he may shoot better, he doesn't pass as well as Rodney Stuckey. That is saying very little about his ability as a floor leader.
5. Kirk Hinrich
Back Story: Hinrich has been the subject of trade rumors for years, especially since the arrival of Derrick Rose. Expect that to continue until his contract expires in 2012.
Rationale: Chicago will be a player in this year's free agent market, bringing in either a big name PF like Stoudemire, Boozer or Bosh or an SG like Joe Johnson. Whichever position they don't fill, you can expect Chicago to make a move for the other position with a trade involving Hinrich.
Value to Detroit: Hinrich's 2009-10 numbers are skewed, as he was played out-of-position at the 2 and as such saw his passing rate drop. Even before that, he's never been an efficient scorer and his assist numbers leave plenty to be desired.
Verdict: Pass. Hinrich doesn't represent value to Detroit, but don't be surprised if you hear mention of his name in trade rumors elsewhere and possibly including Detroit. He's on this list because he's a point guard on the trading block.
6. Mike Conley Jr.
Back Story: It's looking likely that Memphis will start the season without Rudy Gay in a Grizzlies uniform. Should that happen, one of the Grizzlies' frontcourt players will go on the block as well as Mike Conley Jr, whom they haven't been very happy with.
Rationale: Memphis surprised a lot of people this season, thanks to a roster of unlikely underdogs with four potential all stars (sound familiar?). The "other guy" in the starting lineup was Mike Conley, a player who just hasn't lived up to his potential. If Memphis can find themselves an upgrade at the point, they'll take it-- and they might just be interested in giving Rodney Stuckey a shot.
Value for Detroit: Conley's only value to Detroit is as part of a larger trade package. With Rudy Gay gone, Memphis may include Conley and a frontcourt player in a package for Tayshaun Prince. Depending on which frontcourt player that is, Detroit may consider the idea.
Verdict: Pass. Conley is not as productive as Stuckey, despite the decent shooting efficiency. If he's involved in a trade package for a big, that's the only way I could see Detroit making a move involving Conley.
7. JJ Barea
Back Story:Jose Juan Barea is a fan favorite in Dallas, and it'll be quite difficult to pry him away from the Mavs thanks to his contract's team option worth less than $2M this year. The Maverick's backcourt is quite loaded, including Jason Kidd, Jason Terry and rookie surprise Rodrique Beaubois. One of those four players could become a trade piece, and while JJ Barea is a solid player he can't be scratched off the list of possible trade bait in Dallas.
Rationale: Despite their first round exit, the Mavs team is almost comically stacked. A roster including Jason Kidd, Caron Butler, Shawn Marion and Dirk Nowitzki sounds like a sure thing fantasy basketball champion a few years ago. However, Eric Dampier is almost 50 and Brendan Haywood is a free agent, giving Dallas a bit of a pickle at the 5. While Detroit isn't at all thick at the center position, it's safe to assume that Dallas and Detroit could start chatting on the trade market depending on how Detroit's primary trade and draft options turn out.
Value for Detroit: Barea is essentially Will Bynum, but with an emphasis on 3-point shooting and not as much of a focus on to-the-basket slashing. Is he a starter? Probably not, but when his contract expires it is possible that someone gives him a shot at starters minutes. When taking his 3-point game into account, he's still not as productive as Bynum, and it'd cost us valuable trade pieces for what could be a loss at that position.
Verdict: Pass. Nice player, but Barea doesn't present an upgrade over Will Bynum, let alone Rodney Stuckey.
8. Darren Collison
Back Story: In a draft stacked with solid point guards, Darren Collison was the steal of the century. Falling to the 21st pick in last year's draft, Collison filled in for an injured Chris Paul to the point where some considered that Paul might wind up on the trading block. While trading Chris Paul would be a revolutionary brand of foolishness, Collison is so damned good that some have considered CP3 as a possibly expendable superstar trade chip. Think about that-- what level of talent do you need to make the league's most talented point guard worry about his job security?
Rationale: If New Orleans decides to move Collison, they'd likely look for a first round pick, some contract relief and some help at small forward. With their other draft surprise of Marcus Thornton, they don't need to trade for a shooting guard, which takes Hamilton or Gordon out of consideration. It's possible that offering Tayshaun Prince, and our first round might interest NO. In that scenario, Collison, Wright and Posey would work financially. The Hornets would have two lottery picks, a veteran glue guy at the 3 and roughly $27,000,000 in 2011 expiring contracts after this trade.
Value to Detroit: Of all the potentially available point guards on the trade market, Collison is the marquis player. He averaged 19 points and 9 assists on 49% shooting (43% from three) in 37 games as a starter. In that stretch, he had 13 double-doubles, scoring as much as 35 points and dishing out as much as 20 assists in a single game. To get him in a Pistons uniform, however, we can kiss our frontcourt rebuilding goodbye. We'd have to spend our first round pick and our top trade asset for a position we don't have to fill. If Collison is available in that case, however, it might be foolish not to give it a shot (especially if we fall to 10th in the Draft Lottery).
Verdict: Consider it. Detroit would have to put off the frontcourt rebuilding project for another year, but would acquire a top tier point guard of the future.
9. TJ Ford
Back Story: Ford recently exercised his contract's player option for $8,500,000 for the 2010-11 season. It's pretty amazing that Ford put up 14 and 8 on 44% shooting in his last year in Toronto, because he has shat the proverbial bed in Indiana. While the Pacers might just let Ford expire, it's likely they'll move him closer to the trade deadline to a team looking for cap relief.
Rationale: If Detroit gets involved, it'd likely be as part of a larger trade. Detroit probably won't look to be a player in the 2011 free agent market, so the cap relief alone will pose little value. From Indiana's perspective, the Pistons don't have a lot that Indy needs, and it's doubtful they'd even consider moving a big that Detroit would be interested in.
Value for Detroit: TJ's career has gone entirely down hill in Indiana, with dwindling numbers and uninspired performances. He'd be our third best point guard-- and not worth spending any of our trade pieces on.
Verdict: Pass. Double Pass.
10. Ramon Sessions
Back Story: Regular DetroitBadBoys readers will likely be shocked, SHOCKED that it took me this long to mention him. He's on this list because 1) his $4M/yr. contract is one of the longest on Minny's books, 2) that kind of money may be necessary to make a Jefferson or Love trade work financially, 3) Minnesota appears to value Flynn (and the ghost of Ricky Menudio) greater than Sessions.
Rationale: I'm going to save this section for a post entirely to itself (which I will dedicate to Kriz). In short, Sessions has averaged 15 and 8 on 44% shooting in 47 career starts. That's enough to warrant consideration by any GM. Expect Minnesota to get plenty of calls from point-hungry teams, especially Mike D'Antoni's Knicks and the aforementioned Indiana Pacers. What makes Sessions all the more attractive is his contract, which is far more than reasonable. As John Hollinger put it last summer when Sessions signed with Minnesota, "This was the steal of the summer, people." Should he be traded, those words will ring true by the end of his contract.
Value for Detroit: I'll illustrate this in greater detail in a forthcoming article, but for now-- he's more efficient than Stuckey and a much better passer. That hits both of the primary needs Detroit has at the point position. Due to the size of his contract, he could be acquired after we rebuild our frontcourt, making him a very special option for the Pistons.
Verdict: Above and beyond Kevin Love and Al Jefferson, this is precisely the kind of trade Detroit should consider making. We can spend our trade assets and draft picks on bigs AND upgrade our point guard all in the same summer.
In Summary
On this list, two names stand out as inexpensive upgrades that can be acquired after Detroit rebuilds their frontcourt. Jarrett Jack and Ramon Sessions have cheap contracts that could be traded for after Detroit's primary trade assets are spent. Both teams, Toronto and Minnesota, have plenty of talent at the point and currently value their starting PGs over these players. Additionally, both allow Detroit to retain Ben Gordon, as they are both apt defenders who have the size to switch over to guard SGs as necessary.
Beyond these two, Detroit shouldn't blink if discussions open up with New Orleans about Darren Collison. 20/10 point guards who score efficiently and are committed to defense are rare, with only a handful in the league per decade. It might be worth putting off our frontcourt rebuilding project to get him in a Pistons uniform, if it is even possible.
There are more trade options out there, but these 10 involve players who are likely to be on the block this summer. However, the entire point of this article series leads to one simple point. Out of all of the free agent and trade block point guards, only three present a significant upgrade over Rodney Stuckey, and only two can be acquired without interrupting our frontcourt rebuild. Beyond that... sticking with Stuckey is the smart option this summer-- for better or for worse.
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Great Read, MP
Love me some Jarrett Jack, and Ramon Sessions, though. I feel like we’d have to give up Stuckey and more to get Collison (who I think is pretty overrated), so while I like him as a player, I’m not too on board.
JJ Berea sucks. He plays NO defense. None. At all. If Dallas gave Beaubois his minutes in their series against the Spurs, Dallas takes it. No idea what Carlisle was thinking there. Speaking of which, any way we could get Beaubois? Because that would be so freaking awesome. He’s explosive and plays pretty good D, too. And he’s got Rondo/Barbosa-level speed.
If we traded for Hinrich… I don’t know what I’d do. Bulls fans turned on him this year, and for good reason. He’s incredibly overrated for his defense, which is above-average, despite the fact that he doesn’t live up to his reputation as a good shooter, and he holds onto the ball forever. Plus, his contract is horrible.
"Ford! You're turning into a Penguin! Stop it!"
-Arthur Dent
thanks MF TnT!
I don’t think there’s any way Dallas will part with Beaubois. They might try and take advantage of Barea’s cheap contract and overrated status (for a backup point) to swing a package deal for a center. But Beaubois… I think Cuban/Nelson will laugh at any offers that come their way for him.
As for Hinrich, no doubt. To borrow the phrase from the streets, dude is bitch-made. The only good thing about bringing him to Detroit is that it might end up spurring a fun-loving sitcom about two polar opposites forced to live with eachother, and all the little shenanigans they get into. I’m referring, of course, to Rip Hamilton and Kirk Hinrich. Every Pistons/Bulls game I went to in Chicago— both players would get T’d up, be at eachother constantly. I have a hard time thinking of any player in the league that Hamilton hates more.
"Gee'drah write a rhyme in the time he hollow out a flask - crack a Guinness stout with his teeth one time, swallowed the glass"
actually
you guys would be pretty happy. a backcourt of kirk and gordon was one of the big reasons the bulls won 49 games that one year. they work incredibly well together and mask each other’s weaknesses.
"4 inches, baby!" --ripped off from Kush
chemistrywill
Gordon was constantly being shooed in and out of the lineup because of injuries. If he had been healthy all year, and played like he did at the start of the season, I’m sure the Pistons would have at least won 50% of their games, if not close to 49 if CV played up to potential. Remember, right before Chunkster developed foot problems, he was a monster in the post.
You can spin things in different directions, but in the end the best combination generally come from simply having the best players. And simply put, I would not put captain Kirk in that category.
by bearded thundar on May 9, 2010 6:48 PM EDT up reply actions
*chemistry will improve
I’m not sure what happened there
by bearded thundar on May 9, 2010 6:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Great article
I love to read this sort of study for Pistons. BECAUSE,
our season was ended and then there are no interest.
Where broken English happens
Thanks OK!
I’m hoping we can keep the off-season exciting with plenty of content like this not only from the editors, but from solid fanposts as well.
"Gee'drah write a rhyme in the time he hollow out a flask - crack a Guinness stout with his teeth one time, swallowed the glass"
thanks buddy!
"Gee'drah write a rhyme in the time he hollow out a flask - crack a Guinness stout with his teeth one time, swallowed the glass"
In Beno's defence
I’m sure he would of got more apg if he was the primary passer all year long. Mostly Evans was creating things for the Kings. I’m sure he could put up better numbers . Great read so far . I’m gonna get back to it and read the rest now. Oh , and I’m glad you made this into two parts so we have things to look forward to reading .
My style when I'm manic is straight automatic , Pistons fanatic, love to ball so I'm at it! My style when depressed is readdressing the regress , while everyone today is steady praying for some recess !
Funny enough
Beno put up precisely the same number of assists this year as he did last year, 4.7/game. He also averaged the same amount of minutes this year. Interestingly, Tyreke had no impact on Beno’s averages this year. Pretty wild.
"Gee'drah write a rhyme in the time he hollow out a flask - crack a Guinness stout with his teeth one time, swallowed the glass"
No shit?
That is pretty wild.
My style when I'm manic is straight automatic , Pistons fanatic, love to ball so I'm at it! My style when depressed is readdressing the regress , while everyone today is steady praying for some recess !
If we got Collison
we could trade Stuckey for some help in the front court. He’s really our best trade piece.
My style when I'm manic is straight automatic , Pistons fanatic, love to ball so I'm at it! My style when depressed is readdressing the regress , while everyone today is steady praying for some recess !
stuckey’s still on his rookie contract so its unlikely we’d get a legit front court player
by don'tworryaboutit on May 8, 2010 9:17 PM EDT up reply actions
MARC GASOL FTW!
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
I think Tayshaun Prince is our best trade “piece”, thanks to his expiring contract (and that he’s not due for a raise afterward, whereas Stuckey is). I do agree that Stuckey is our best trade “player”. GMs regularly overvalue scoring, giving players contracts that outweigh their production thanks to their PPG numbers alone. With that, I think other GMs would listen to packages involving Stuckey. Even if they don’t see him as a starter, they might see him as a Super Six, which is where I’d want him if we did take on one of the three players I mentioned (assuming he’s not involved in the trade package).
"Gee'drah write a rhyme in the time he hollow out a flask - crack a Guinness stout with his teeth one time, swallowed the glass"
Ramon Sessions would be...
awesome.
I’ve always been a fan of Jarret Jack for whatever reason. I think he’d fit well in Detroit.
My Music: Some Sorta Giant
My Blog: Strike Three Mechanics
Thanks for the thorough coverage, MFMP! This is a great series. I actually like Jarrett Jack — he plays hard and seems to do lots of little things well.
thanks MFGE!
The next step in the series is to dedicate one article to each of the three players that could be a realistic addition to the team. Instead of writing them myself, I asked a few others to join in and tackle each player. Since I’m head-over-heels for Ramon “Three Hour Makeout” Sessions, I’ll do that one myself. :)
Shit, if it goes well, we should do this for every position. For the 2-guard, we’ll obviously have either Rip OR Gordon after the trade deadline, so it’ll make sense to look at backup SG options. For the small forward, we should consider how to distribute the minutes between Daye, Jerebko and Summers next season assuming Prince is dealt. The other two positions will have more to talk about after the draft lottery, when things will get pretty exciting around these parts.
It’ll at least give us stuff to talk about for the next few months!
"Gee'drah write a rhyme in the time he hollow out a flask - crack a Guinness stout with his teeth one time, swallowed the glass"
Jack suprised me
For a guy essentially thrown away to Toronto, they actually played significantly better with him starting than Calderon. The dude plays legit defense, that’s all that really matters with the Raptors. They could score in a heartbeat, they just happened to be worse than Tila Tequila at preventing penetration and balls from going in their hole.
by bearded thundar on May 8, 2010 11:51 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
rec'd for the Tila comment. lol
My style when I'm manic is straight automatic , Pistons fanatic, love to ball so I'm at it! My style when depressed is readdressing the regress , while everyone today is steady praying for some recess !
heh heh Tila Tequila
I met her once in Vegas at the SpikeTV 2007 Videogame Awards…I would have made more of an effort to talk to her too if it weren’t for the fact that Tia Carrere (Wayne’s girlfriend from Wayne’s World) wasn’t flirting with Stan Lee 10 feet to the right of me…true stroy.
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
Sessions is the way to go. The only other one on the list I’d be ok with is Collison and, to be honest, I think that Chris Paul is more attainable than he is now. If we could get Sessions and Jefferson from Minnesota and somehow keep our pick and get Aldrich, the only way a team could have a better offseason is if they drafted Wall, signed LeBron, signed Stoudemire, and signed Wade.
Ok, maybe I am exaggerating but I’m serious. Sessions-Gordon-Jerebko-Jefferson-Aldrich going forward would be one hell of a core to build around.
You know what
Scratch that. The only way we could have a better off season is if we found some sucker to take Villanueva.
by Apocalyptic0n3 on May 8, 2010 11:19 PM EDT up reply actions
agreed
100% (re: acquiring jefferson and sessions and signing aldrich)
"Gee'drah write a rhyme in the time he hollow out a flask - crack a Guinness stout with his teeth one time, swallowed the glass"
I would agree on that except for Gordon starting. Did you know that Sessions is actually taller than Gordon? By a solid inch, I wouldn’t trust are starting back court that short. Sessions has the build of the prototypical point guard, not a shooting guard – meaning you can’t cross guard.
Also you guys should look into Dee Bost. He may be available in the second round. He along with Varnado were very good players for Miss.
by bearded thundar on May 8, 2010 11:28 PM EDT up reply actions
both Sessions and Jack
are 6’3"— just like our old boy Chaunce. For a point guard, that’s actually quite tall (Collison is 6’0" 160, which might make Hamilton a better backcourt pairing). While that might be a bit less-than-satisfactory to handle the switch-off when paired with Ben Gordon, it’s much better than most point guards. Also, in the last two years, Sessions has often been played out-of-position at the 2, guarding opposing SGs and doing a pretty good job of it. He started as an okay defender when Skiles joined the Bucks, but left a damn good cross-position option regardless of the opposition’s size.
"Gee'drah write a rhyme in the time he hollow out a flask - crack a Guinness stout with his teeth one time, swallowed the glass"
I honestly don’t know what to make out of Sessions because of how he’s been mistreated. It doesn’t make sense, he showed a lot of promise for the Bucks, and yet they let him walk. I still remember the game he went off for 44. It didn’t matter what we did or who we threw at him, he couldn’t be stopped . Ultimately it was Dyess and Iverson (ironically) who won us the game (also I believe Hamilton set a record for most Piston points off the bench).
If Ramon left to sign with a team that had just drafted 2 point guards, his options must have been slim – which doesn’t make sense. If I recall, NY was thinking about signing him. All I’m saying is that something doesn’t add up, there must be something about him we don’t know. He’s too talented to be thrown around like this.
by bearded thundar on May 9, 2010 12:00 AM EDT up reply actions
it's all weird wild stuff
and I’ll be digging as deep as I can on him soon. dude’s story is pretty strange. Milwaukee signed Ridnour because they weren’t confident in Sessions ability on D, and he ended up performing excellently and earning the starting gig. Minnesota’s weirdness, however, is even more complicated.
"Gee'drah write a rhyme in the time he hollow out a flask - crack a Guinness stout with his teeth one time, swallowed the glass"
I've been a big proponent for Collison
I don’t care what that takes except for giving up a first round pick. I’d be much more willing to part with Bynum than the pick, because quite simply that pick should turn into a very solid front court piece. Regardless of whether that pick becomes a superstar, it’s still more valuable to us than a point guard – at this moment.
Besides, if we trade for Collison and play him 40 minutes a night, it’s not like we’ll have much room within our guard rotation the way things are stacked up.
On a side note, anyone else also watching the wings?
by bearded thundar on May 8, 2010 11:24 PM EDT reply actions
btw MFBT
check your email
"Gee'drah write a rhyme in the time he hollow out a flask - crack a Guinness stout with his teeth one time, swallowed the glass"
win
"Gee'drah write a rhyme in the time he hollow out a flask - crack a Guinness stout with his teeth one time, swallowed the glass"
Could we 3-way with NO and Minny and kill two birds with one stone?
There’s only two “available” pgs i see as an upgrade to Stuckey: Harris and Collison. I know many don’t think so about Harris, but just let me have my non-statistical based bias.
I tried to work a trade that would involve Collison and Al Jefferson. Here’s how it looks on trade machine. It definitely needs work, but it seems like a trade that would be worth putting work into.
Detroit would get Collison and Jefferson
New Orleans: Austin Daye and Corey Brewer
Minnesota: Prince, Stuckey, and Maxiell
I wouldn’t mind throwing in a future 1st rounder, because we could probably trade rip to one of the teams left out of the big free agent singing for their 1st rounder.
New Orleans would give up Darren Collison for Austin Daye and Corey Brewer??
Maybe we can get Kobe for Maxiell, Villanueva and Wilcox, and Lebron for Bynum and Prince?
do it joe…
"Gee'drah write a rhyme in the time he hollow out a flask - crack a Guinness stout with his teeth one time, swallowed the glass"
i wouldn’t do the kobe trade. he’s on the decline and the other 3 all are in their prime.
by Roll The Dyess on May 9, 2010 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions
a trade between new orleans and minny that nets us collison and jefferson would be ideal. am i wrong?
It definitely needs work, but it seems like a trade that would be worth putting work into.
i wasn’t saying it was a deal, i’m saying it’s an idea to build around.
if we threw our first rounder in, there’s no way you can tell me Collison is better than Daye, Brewer, plus the 7th pick. If NO sent us that trade, I wouldn’t do it. They’re playing with house money trading Collison, looking for home runs. Daye would play well with CP3, because he’s a shooter. The only problem you have with that trade is Brewer, and another trade could be worked out that had a different second player in there as well as us throwing in our 2nd rounder or a late 1st rounder from a third team.
by Roll The Dyess on May 9, 2010 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions
Harris is NOT an upgrade over Stuckey
At all.
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
Excellent Analysis, Mike
But I still think nothing is going to happen until we know our draft position. Collison and Sessions are the two obvious choices, and you know I’m a big fan of the UCLA program (Collison). You go to UCLA and play for Howland, you learn how to play in the NBA.
You know, we might have a better shot at having the ping pong balls fall out way. What is it, like 6% or so? That’s only 16-1. You’re not 16-1 to pull off a deal getting CP3, that’s for sure.
Let’s say you’re Joe Dumars, if you are going to trade a guard, do you trade Gordon, Rip, or do you give the other team a choice? IMHO, in terms of trade value, taking the contract into consideration of course, it’s a pick’em.
Sweet
Great read MR.MFMP!
The problem as I see it, is that Sessions and Jack are both poor fits next to Ben Gordon.
Jack is usually one of the more turnover prone PG’s in the league (especially for a low usage PG), and his assist numbers are inconsistent from year to year. Having a poor ball handling PG, with iffy passing ability, playing in the same backcourt as Gordon is not likely to work.
Sessions is more solid all around (or was in the one season he got consistent minutes at PG), but Ty from http://courtsideanalyst.wordpress.com/ (formerly Bucksdiary) did tons of digging and concluded that Sessions appeared to be much better as an on-ball defender of PG’s.
So we’d still have the classic Ben Gordon defensive conundrum; on most nights Gordon would either be on-ball, or giving up lots of size. Still, they’d fit together nicely on offense.
Collison’s stats are pretty good for a rookie PG, but not future-star good, IMO he’s become a bit overrated: Collison vs. Lawson
Hopefully Collison’s main accomplishment will be to convince GM’s to ignore scouts when they stamp the “low ceiling” label on good college players.
Vasquez is horribly unathletic
Varnado isn’t. Varnado has a “low ceiling” because of his size and that he doesn’t appear to contribute much on offense. However, having seen him play, he’s definitely strong enough for the NBA – he shut down Cousins on a number of occasions (which is the main reason why I fear Cousins’ lack of jumping ability, anyone with strength can seal him off) and also he does in fact have a fairly polished post game. Miss. just preferred to use their perimeter players when it came to scoring.
But I will say that Vasquez is one the reasons that I want more second rounders. If you can buy off say Atlanta’s second rounder (and I believe their first rounder is for sale too), then you could probably snatch him up late in the draft. The guy has a SG’s build, has a SG’s shooting ability, but also a point guards play making ability. He’ll got torched on defense in the NBA, but he could very well be just as good as James Harden on offense.
by bearded thundar on May 9, 2010 10:39 AM EDT up reply actions
And Lawson and Collison are too short
Or at least, that’s what the scouts said leading into the draft last year…
Athleticism can make up for height
The reverse is not necessarily true. Ben Wallace is a great example of that, he destroyed Shaq in the Miami series (at which point Shaq was too fat to jump over his box of donuts).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5svfUckueM&feature=related
Also keep in mind that Lawson is very strong for his seize (and I wouldn’t call Collison too short, being 6’2" in shoes is enough).
by bearded thundar on May 9, 2010 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed
I watched that same Cousins/Varnado match up and was impressed by Varnado. Best case scenario he rebounds, blocks, and plays d like Ben Wallace…if that is a low ceiling then I’d love to see what a high ceiling looks like.
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
That’s why we need a bad ass big man to cover up Gordon’s defensive deficiencies. I don’t care if Gordon’s man blows by him 3 out of 4 times as long as BG is scoring a lot on his end and our big guys are backing him up down low with some smash mouth D.
by garrettelliott on May 9, 2010 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions
No thanks on Turk, too much($) for too little.
I would love to pry Weems away from TO if the Pistons could throw Rip in the deal, but the Raps wouldn’t be wise to make that move. Hopefully they have a hard-on for Rip/Tay. Jack is good and a much better defender then Calderon, signing him would be great. Calderon in years past has had a good assist to turnover ratio, but that stat is misleading. He rarely runs the fast break, thus keeping TOs down, but no quick and easy baskets.
MP your spot on with (buda)Sessions as he would be a great addition and his size does make him attractive. His speed and ability to run a fast break is very attractive.
Too bad we can’t move CV. Nobody would want him, but if the Pistons could somehow throw him into a deal it would create space & save $ to upgrade the frontcourt… I know nobody is going to want to take him and his 8mill per, but it would be nice. Any takers, CV for a bag of chips?
Favre's ankle, Starcaps BS and hopefully a busy Piston offseason, oh my. Go Netherlands/Holland/Dutch Soccer(no its not Football)!
No Dumars Won't Be Able To Sign Amir This Summer
Sorry about that. He will only be returning the Palace in another uniform.
Great series, Mike
It’s only going to get more interested after the draft lottery, to boot! I really like Sessions for the money, and Jack is decent as well. There’s no way NO can keep Collision and CP3 forever — the question is, when will they move Collison? I would think that it is going to take something very appealing to motivate NO to move him while he’s on his rookie deal. But, they do have cap problems …
I like GE’s comment above, too. I think the size of our backcourt in total is a secondary concern to our interior defense. Obviously, it’d be great to have a size advantage at every position, but, I think short guards hurt a whole lot less when you’ve got a couple great defenders patrolling the paint — Thomas and Dumars anyone?
Michael Jordan said
Joe Dumars was the best defender he ever faced, but yes the Bad Boy bigs were defensively stout.
Favre's ankle, Starcaps BS and hopefully a busy Piston offseason, oh my. Go Netherlands/Holland/Dutch Soccer(no its not Football)!
Those are two hall of fame guards
That were known for their toughness. In fact that Bad Boys team changed the concept of NBA defense as a whole. Not a fair comparison, we’re not ever going to see a team like that again with the way the league has changed the rules.
But I while agree that good bigs can make up for short guards. But as it stands, we have no good bigs. So until that happens, Gordon should not be starting, especially not with someone like Collison (who is a mere 160 pounds).
by bearded thundar on May 9, 2010 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, I know those guys were the exception, not the rule. I’m not trying to generalize, just saying that big men who patrol the paint can mask other weaknesses.
Rasheed Wallace would agree with you in 2006.
by garrettelliott on May 10, 2010 9:19 AM EDT up reply actions
Don Nelson would disagree.
That nut job would start Spud Webb and Muggsy Bougs at the guard spots with Earl Boukins at SF. Not sure about the spelling of some of they’re names but I’m sure you get it.
My style when I'm manic is straight automatic , Pistons fanatic, love to ball so I'm at it! My style when depressed is readdressing the regress , while everyone today is steady praying for some recess !
I never really understood how he of all people holds the all time wins record. Perhaps if LB had bothered to stay at a few places longer, he would have that prize.
by bearded thundar on May 9, 2010 8:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Only because he’s been coaching forever. He probably holds the record for most losses too. Unless Lenny Wilkins still holds it.
My style when I'm manic is straight automatic , Pistons fanatic, love to ball so I'm at it! My style when depressed is readdressing the regress , while everyone today is steady praying for some recess !
changes
Seems to me that there are going to be a lot of teams getting eliminated from the playoffs that feel like they need to make some changes to be contenders.
Denver out in the first round again. Also Dallas with as stacked as they are couldn’t win a series. Even with the injuries Utah has to hate losing to the Lakers (we all know it’s coming). WTF happened to Atlanta? Do they need veteran leadership? Or will they just can Mike Woodson (maybe they would get Larry Brown and create some kind of monster). Portland another young talented team out in the first round.
I’m hoping after the free agent dust settles we’ll have a crazy active trade market.
atlanta is what they are, i think that in their current incarnation they have peaked. i have no idea where they go from here.
So far the playoffs have been pretty interesting, IME. A lot of teams that were supposed to be really good got trounced in the first round. I have to wonder if Dallas would have made it further if they didn’t play the Spurs. Those old geezers just get up to beat the Mavs. It’s all about match ups.
by garrettelliott on May 10, 2010 9:21 AM EDT up reply actions
is there still people out there who think rondo is only sweet because he plays with the so called big three? if so you need to retired that shit.
agreed
"Gee'drah write a rhyme in the time he hollow out a flask - crack a Guinness stout with his teeth one time, swallowed the glass"
29 pts, 18 rbs, 13 asts...
damnit i give in.
by Roll The Dyess on May 10, 2010 10:36 AM EDT up reply actions
He only got all those rebounds
because he’s playing with Rasheed.
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
by The Boourns on May 10, 2010 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I used to be that guy
But I had him pegged as an all-star starter this year.
by Kevin Sawyer on May 10, 2010 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm still amazed he can do all that without a decent three point shot.
If he ever gets one… God damn.
by Terrence J. Lynch on May 10, 2010 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Keep up the great work MP
Its stuff like this that makes the off-season much more bearable. If I could be so bold as to request some pieces on front court targets through free agency and trade that would be sweet.
I’m not convinced Joe has enough logic to draft a pick we would all be happy with, I mean, we all know that Joe is going to draft a narcoleptic 7 foot tall white guy from Europe to play PG, right?
Well, there was the bit that you missed where I distracted him with the cuddly monkey then I said "play time's over" and I hit him in the head with the peace lily.
Thanks Laughton!
If I could be so bold as to request some pieces on front court targets through free agency and trade that would be sweet.
Absolutely. I think the plan will be to cover all positions before trade season begins. Once we get an idea of our draft pick, that’ll generate plenty of speculation on who we’ll pick. Until then, we might have time to talk about a backup SG should Rip or Gordon be moved.
Next step— there will be three articles, one each covering the players that we could bring in who could be better than Stuck. I’ll cover Sessions, and two other DBBers will be working on the other two, Jarrett Jack and Darren Collison. Expect to begin to see that coverage this week. After that’s all hashed out, we’ll move on to other positions :)
Fortunately, the draft lottery is only 8 days away…
"Gee'drah write a rhyme in the time he hollow out a flask - crack a Guinness stout with his teeth one time, swallowed the glass"
Must be tough to swallow for Hawks fans
They came from being NBA garbage to terrorizing much of the league recently, but it’s clear they’re not meant to be champions. Great team though. Woodson rocks
"Someday pray that he will grow a farm barn full, Recent research shows its not so darn harmful"
I fell in love with Sessions
when he torched the Pistons a year or two ago. It’s tough to predict what moves the organization will make until after the draft lottery, obviously. I think most of us agree that Stuckey cannot play the 1, he needs to play off the ball to be effective, and improve his jump shot. The Pistons simply didn’t utilize Rip effectively this season. He seemed to be trying to create his own shot all the time instead of getting the ball off of screens as per usual. The backcourt as it is is simply too crowded, and doesn’t fit well together. Trade a guard or two to get a frontcourt player, depending on where the balls fall.
?^^^
He needs to play off the ball to be effective? I agree he’s not a point guard (not yet anyway) . But what does he do off the ball that is so effective? His jump shot sucks and he barely comes off screens to get open to drive to the hole. The only time he is effective is when he gets inside and scores or gets to the free throw line. At least until he improves his shot and range. So how do you figure ‘’he needs to play off the ball to be effective’’?
My style when I'm manic is straight automatic , Pistons fanatic, love to ball so I'm at it! My style when depressed is readdressing the regress , while everyone today is steady praying for some recess !
Perhaps I phrased it wrongly...
When Stuckey has played SG instead of PG, he has been more aggressive. At the present moment, he’s trying to achieve that balance between facilitator and scorer. He’s naturally just more of a scorer, and doesn’t play as well when asked to do both. However, DetBalla, you’re right in that he doesn’t have the skill set to be a good NBA SG, which is the problem. He either needs to improve his passing and decision making, or develop a much more consistent jump shot. I think he can play at the moment, but he is not a long-term option at PG for the Pistons.
He either needs to improve his passing and decision making, or develop a much more consistent jump shot.
Both are important, of course, or he could just come off the bench.
"Gee'drah write a rhyme in the time he hollow out a flask - crack a Guinness stout with his teeth one time, swallowed the glass"
Problem is
Ben Gordon does that much better than Stuckey does… I think Stuckey is the odd man out here. Will Bynum is a perfect backup PG when healthy, Ben Gordon is an ideal backup SG. I think pairing Sessions with Rip is at least an interesting idea, unless Rip is the one to get moved.
Tony Parker
ESPN just speculated, based on literally nothing, that Parker might be on the block.
Could we make a pick + Stuckey + x work? If x is Prince, then it makes less sense to take on Parker, but that would probably be what it would take to get Parker.
Josh Smith
I wouldn’t be surprised if the Hawks tried to restructure a little. A hawks spurs trade based around Josh Smith and Tony Parker seems about right.
by Roll The Dyess on May 10, 2010 10:39 AM EDT up reply actions
facepalm.
"Gee'drah write a rhyme in the time he hollow out a flask - crack a Guinness stout with his teeth one time, swallowed the glass"
you don’t think there’s a chance in hell atlanta will try to trade josh smith?
you think going off what espn and kevin already posted is stupid?
you think josh smith is a bad fit in san antonio?
you think tony parker wouldn’t live in atlanta?
what the fuck problem do you have with the notion of san antonio and atlanta trying to work out a trade around josh smith and tony parker?
by Roll The Dyess on May 10, 2010 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions
take it easy man
Just seems like every other thread you post a crazy, lopsided trade idea (like Collison for Daye and Brewer, above), and my “facepalm” was in essence an “oh brother” response.
you don’t think there’s a chance in hell atlanta will try to trade josh smith?
Nope. Even if they were dumb enough to trade their best player, they’d have to find a suitor that doesn’t mind that little $6 million trade kicker on Smith’s contract. A trade of Parker for Smith, no matter who else it concluded, would be entirely lopsided.
We’re talking a most improved player candidate and the number 2 vote getter in the DPOY race. Oh, and he’s 24. Trading him for a 28-year-old point guard whose game is based on speed— and who has averaged 66 games per season in the last three… Just a bad idea man, nothing personal.
"Gee'drah write a rhyme in the time he hollow out a flask - crack a Guinness stout with his teeth one time, swallowed the glass"
Trading Parker or George Hill is not the answer for S.A.
They definitely need to get younger, but I don’t see trading those guys as a good option unless they get something crazy in return
"Someday pray that he will grow a farm barn full, Recent research shows its not so darn harmful"
Summers for Blair straight up works in the trade machine
Oh Snap!
by brgulker on May 10, 2010 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I don't trust trading with San Antonio
They seem like the type of team that regardless of the potential talent swap, they always end up getting the best of the deal.
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
Am I the only one that thinks a Hinrich for Hamilton swap makes sense?
I don’t particularly like Hinrich, but he does provide three things we need:
PG play
Three point ball (career 38%)
Defense
It would also clear up the logjam at SG and offer an alternative to giving MFWB and MFExtension (three guard rotation of Stuckey, Gordon, and Hinrich plus some cheap vet’s minimum player).
by Terrence J. Lynch on May 10, 2010 2:20 PM EDT reply actions
Only makes sense as a salary dump
Hinrich is a really inefficient player, is undersized for the 2, and is not a natural PG. However, if it’s the only way to get rid of Rip’s contract, we should do it.
Harris could still make sense
IF:
(1) we can’t trade Rip for a worthwhile frontcourt player
(2) you think Stuckey would be better as a 2 than a 1 (as I do)
Rip’s contract, like his play last year, is worse than harris’s. You make a good point that we should save our large contracts to trade for a big. But if we can’t do that, I maintain that a starting back court of Harris and Stuckey (with super-sub Gordon) is a clear upgrade over last year, and actually IMPROVES our salary situation. There’s also a chance that last year was a fluke bad year for Harris.
a Harris and Stuckey backcourt
would make us an even worse 3-point shooting team than we were last year (we’re already in the basement). As I’ve quipped before, Stuckey needs control of the ball to score inefficiently. Same for Harris.
Also, I don’t understand the philosophy that Stuckey would be better as a 2-guard. I think a lot of people come to that conclusion because he isn’t a “natural” point guard, but that alone doesn’t make him a “natural” 2-guard either.
He can’t shoot from the perimeter. He doesn’t have a mid-range shot. He doesn’t finish at the basket well. Thus, he’s not going to be a good option for spot-up threes and he’ll be ineffective at coming off of screens if he can’t sink the shot anyway. He can catch and drive, and even then he’s a coin flip once he gets to the basket.
Unless Stuckey shows some serious improvements in outside shooting and mid-range shot, he’ll never be a realistic option as a starting NBA shooting guard. I mean, the job description is in the name of the damn job— “shooting” guard, and Stuckey has shown that shooting is his greatest weakness.
"Gee'drah write a rhyme in the time he hollow out a flask - crack a Guinness stout with his teeth one time, swallowed the glass"
by Mike Payne on May 11, 2010 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
He can’t shoot from the perimeter. He doesn’t have a mid-range shot. He doesn’t finish at the basket well. Thus, he’s not going to be a good option for spot-up threes and he’ll be ineffective at coming off of screens if he can’t sink the shot anyway. He can catch and drive, and even then he’s a coin flip once he gets to the basket.
Given this description, which is accurate, I struggle to figure out how he makes sense as a starter at either position for a winning team.
Well said, Mr. Payne. Stuckey would be a good backup. Unfortunately, entire Detroit roster is composed of players that, at best, are good backups.
The Detroit Backups
"Someday pray that he will grow a farm barn full, Recent research shows its not so darn harmful"
by Skylar on May 11, 2010 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
can we get Primoz Brezec
to be our mascot?
"Gee'drah write a rhyme in the time he hollow out a flask - crack a Guinness stout with his teeth one time, swallowed the glass"
If Primoz Brezec was a mascot
would he become self abusive?
by Biz Markie Moon on May 12, 2010 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Play like an MVP
Look at that steve nash face! DAMN!!

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